[Old] FFT: Plus Chat/discussion topic

[Dome]

Also, damn Boco is good now, he was the main reason Quecklain went down so easily. Choco Esuna > Decay. Innate Protect? So what, Choco Meteor. Great speed too. Was going to replace him with Agrias, but that decision has become much harder.

I know, Boco is quite good now
His damage output won't keep up very well with the enemies' hp later in the game, but he is still a good -cleric- unit to keep :-)

[Dynablade]

Um, I don't know if it's intentional, but that first Weigraf fight is piss easy, disabling his slow samurais wasn't difficult, then all you have to do to him is steal his weapon and he can't do anything.
Maybe in some update give him innate Martial Arts? Granted though if he has his sword it's a real problem, he HIT my ninja for 345 on the first turn.

[Dome]

Um, I don't know if it's intentional, but that first Weigraf fight is piss easy, disabling his slow samurais wasn't difficult, then all you have to do to him is steal his weapon and he can't do anything.
Maybe in some update give him innate Martial Arts? Granted though if he has his sword it's a real problem, he HIT my ninja for 345 on the first turn.

Thanks for the eedback, guess I'll buff the enemies a bit

[Dynablade]

Not that you have to buff ALL the enemies!
Just got smashed at Yuguo Woods, that time mage doesn't fuck around when using Dark Holy. I don't even know what she was doing to get off instant Dark Holys, but damn she killed my entire team basically by herself. I'll keep you posted, but most battles are the proper amount of frustrating, save the first Weigraf.

You just had to give him something should his equipment gets stolen/broken. That or give him Maintenance, but then he could be really really tough with it. I didn't give him time to use his sword skills, but he probably would have had at least a couple kills with a lightning stab. Thus far that was the only truly 'easy' battle, and that was only because I have a dedicated Ninja/Thief. 

[Dome]

Don't worry, never meant to buff all enemies XD

[Dynablade]

um, am i crazy or did a few posts just get deleted?
guess you didn't want spam, but i was trying to give you a little feedback.
those marlboros in the Reis fight did basically nothing. They didn't even try to attack Reis, and on a couple turns they did literally nothing, just waited, even with most of my team nearby.

[Eternal]

I noted that in a few battles during my FFT+ playthrough as well. I have no idea what causes that.

[Dome]

O_o
I truly don't know what is causing that
The units in that fight have the same AI bits that they had in vanilla

[shoruke]

I've noticed the "I'll do nothing" thing a few times now, myself. There was one archer outside Lionel castle who did nothing for two turns (and then was killed), there was a goblin in some forest who decided it wasn't worth his time to help his friends lose against Gafgarion...

And then there's Guest!Boco. Good lord, he friggin' LOVES his corner.

I actually lost that first fight against Wiegraf several times, because my entire team was mages at that point XD

[Dynablade]

the boco one is natural, pretty sure no matter what he retreats to that corner and stays there, choosing either option causes that to happen

and it happened AGAIN in finath river, except here it was the squidlarkin family running into depth 2 water at every possible opportunity, very strange.

Maybe I'll get lucky and seph---i mean elmdor will decide to just attack instead of blood sucking..

[Neophyte Ronin]

Is the first play-through supposed to be this difficult?  Die every battle three times before--having had your eyes glaze over in disbelief of God or anything good being left in the world--you devise a solution that requires you to squat in a corner in an elaborate formation and nickel-and-dime your quarry?  Did Dome assume we all use save states?  I don't.  And if save states are required to get anywhere in the game without pitching the controller at the monitor from sheer exhaustion from hour-long white-knuckle tangents, then I'm afraid this game requires a lot more play-testing before it is advertised.

The game just gets worse and worse and worse if you're the type who prefers to have the proper ability set for the right situation.  Means you gotta go learn it.  Upwards of two or three levels earned per battle just to break even.  And the monsters just get even more freakish without lifting a finger.  Reminiscent of those days when you looked at Fighters, Wizards, and Dragons.  Dragons gain power just by hanging out across a couple eons, while Wizards grow in power in towers.  You never see a level twenty Fighter--those guys earn levels only by going out to war--it's almost a peculiarity, really. 

So monsters are still annoying in their own way.  Only this time, they're literally rigged to kill no matter how deft the player is.  When monsters begin to level up like crazy wahzzu, they leave your party dead in the water.  If you keep getting beat in early battles and resort to leveling without inner-game progress that reveals the latest hardware in shops, then you start to see a superb discrepancy between your characters and the monsters you face.  Only recourse is to recruit monsters (tricky since Train requires damage that brings the beast to critical).  Even though they are tougher than human units, that's just it.  They're not human units.  Relying upon at least one monster per fight means another human unit misses out on leveling up, something that is close to required for this game.

In other words, no matter how many interesting changes have been made, it's all for naught if a standard game player becomes more frustrated, outraged, and powerless than genuinely challenged.  Some of the familiar mechanics (upgradeable/downgraded Bravery and Faith, for instance) have been subverted beyond reason, leaving some of the thematic elements without its original magic.  In the attempt to avoid having to grind levels, I got forced into subscribing to every ability I imagined could thwart the bad guys with minimal trouble.  When enemies started to have 3+ Levels if only "to make it interesting," levels started going up quickly, leaving the level of technology with something to be desired.

And that only allowed monsters to escalate in power well beyond what I ever dreamed was "fair", leaving my party with little else than pea-shooters.  Did you think it was funny that all the Chapter One random encounters with human targets feature opponents who always have Maintenance as a Supportive Ability?  Is there a moment in time where it's possible to have a Thief rob them blind or something?  It is considered very bad form to preempt character abilities simply because you don't want them to get their hands on anything that might allow them a much smoother ride, just because you want to force them into pursuing alternatives that are crippling and burdensome in a bid to be fair.  If you're so self-conscious about it, figure out a way that human targets--unless stated otherwise--equip items based on the current shop line-up and not according to a level rubric.  Pepper in the secret stuff as you progress deeper into the game.  It's probably much harder to do, but it beats having thieves lose out on their best skills just because you don't want them to work in situations where they were meant to be applied.

You don't mind if I compile a FAQ about this game, do you?  It's not enough to peruse the lists you've made--people will get pissed if they discover everything they strove to understand suddenly doesn't apply.  I sure was.  I was entertained at first, but then I noticed how long the first battle became--the very first battle--and I realized that If my character died, the battle could have been a Game Over.  While many changes are all for the good, some of them just drag things out forever.  Every day is a struggle just to survive and not pitch the controller.  If a soft reset didn't exist, then this game would get real annoying.  So, having such mixed satisfaction that borders on the unplayable-yet-see-all-the-features rage, I'm compiling a FAQ, if there isn't one out there.  Of course, it'd be easier if I finish the game first.

[Dome]

Whoa dude, what a long-ass post O_o
I'm glad you decided to register to the forums to post your feedback about the hack, but...are you sure are we playing the same mod?

Is the first play-through supposed to be this difficult?  Die every battle three times before--having had your eyes glaze over in disbelief of God or anything good being left in the world--you devise a solution that requires you to squat in a corner in an elaborate formation and nickel-and-dime your quarry?  Did Dome assume we all use save states?  I don't.  And if save states are required to get anywhere in the game without pitching the controller at the monitor from sheer exhaustion from hour-long white-knuckle tangents, then I'm afraid this game requires a lot more play-testing before it is advertised.

Tell me which fight is giving you trouble
Because I've played the whole hack twice/three times (And I'm playing it for the fourth time, this time recording each battle) and I have yet to find a battle that gives so much trouble
Enemies (Both in story and random fights) wear the same items you can buy in stores (Or sometimes, only during story battle, some "better" free-to-steal piece of gear), are at the same level you are (Except some unit that might be at your level +1-3 depending at which point of the story you are).
Also, if you have problems with a fight, you can grind and gain new abilities/unlock new classes (Something that the enemies cannot do)

The game just gets worse and worse and worse if you're the type who prefers to have the proper ability set for the right situation.  Means you gotta go learn it.  Upwards of two or three levels earned per battle just to break even.  And the monsters just get even more freakish without lifting a finger.  Reminiscent of those days when you looked at Fighters, Wizards, and Dragons.  Dragons gain power just by hanging out across a couple eons, while Wizards grow in power in towers.  You never see a level twenty Fighter--those guys earn levels only by going out to war--it's almost a peculiarity, really.

Enemies level up with you, but don't gain better/more abilities/classes like you do
Enemies in storyline battles always have the gear you can buy in stores, regardless of your level. Again, what's the problem with levelling up?

So monsters are still annoying in their own way.  Only this time, they're literally rigged to kill no matter how deft the player is.  When monsters begin to level up like crazy wahzzu, they leave your party dead in the water.  If you keep getting beat in early battles and resort to leveling without inner-game progress that reveals the latest hardware in shops, then you start to see a superb discrepancy between your characters and the monsters you face.  Only recourse is to recruit monsters (tricky since Train requires damage that brings the beast to critical).  Even though they are tougher than human units, that's just it.  They're not human units.  Relying upon at least one monster per fight means another human unit misses out on leveling up, something that is close to required for this game.

Monsters are stronger than human units, there's no doubt about it
By stronger, I mean that they have more Hp, speed, and sheer power. But they cannot equip new gear or abilities! Each monster will always play in the same way, because they are one-trick pony: They can't do much else. With this, I mean you will never see a Goblin cast a spell, or a dragon removing your MPs.
If you level up like crazy in random fights without progressing in the game, monsters will sooner or later become stronger than your units. But if you level up so much it means you are gaining a lot of JPs, which, again, means you have better abilities. Instead of fighting them in close combat and being raped, try to play in a strategic way against them! Evasion and statuses both works very well on them, regardless of the level!

In other words, no matter how many interesting changes have been made, it's all for naught if a standard game player becomes more frustrated, outraged, and powerless than genuinely challenged.  Some of the familiar mechanics (upgradeable/downgraded Bravery and Faith, for instance) have been subverted beyond reason, leaving some of the thematic elements without its original magic.  In the attempt to avoid having to grind levels, I got forced into subscribing to every ability I imagined could thwart the bad guys with minimal trouble.  When enemies started to have 3+ Levels if only "to make it interesting," levels started going up quickly, leaving the level of technology with something to be desired.

Br/Fa modding has been removed for a reson: It allowed the player to easily break the game
97 Br 03 Fa characters could easily roflstomp everything without much truble
The "level issue" has already been discussed and I don't want to repeat myself

And that only allowed monsters to escalate in power well beyond what I ever dreamed was "fair", leaving my party with little else than pea-shooters.  Did you think it was funny that all the Chapter One random encounters with human targets feature opponents who always have Maintenance as a Supportive Ability?  Is there a moment in time where it's possible to have a Thief rob them blind or something?  It is considered very bad form to preempt character abilities simply because you don't want them to get their hands on anything that might allow them a much smoother ride, just because you want to force them into pursuing alternatives that are crippling and burdensome in a bid to be fair.  If you're so self-conscious about it, figure out a way that human targets--unless stated otherwise--equip items based on the current shop line-up and not according to a level rubric.  Pepper in the secret stuff as you progress deeper into the game.  It's probably much harder to do, but it beats having thieves lose out on their best skills just because you don't want them to work in situations where they were meant to be applied.

You CAN get better gear before it's in stores: Steal from it from enemies in story battles, get it as a reward from storyline battles and poach

You don't mind if I compile a FAQ about this game, do you?  It's not enough to peruse the lists you've made--people will get pissed if they discover everything they strove to understand suddenly doesn't apply.  I sure was.  I was entertained at first, but then I noticed how long the first battle became--the very first battle--and I realized that If my character died, the battle could have been a Game Over.  While many changes are all for the good, some of them just drag things out forever.  Every day is a struggle just to survive and not pitch the controller.  If a soft reset didn't exist, then this game would get real annoying.  So, having such mixed satisfaction that borders on the unplayable-yet-see-all-the-features rage, I'm compiling a FAQ, if there isn't one out there.  Of course, it'd be easier if I finish the game first.

The first battle? The first battle is freaking easy, you have 2 swordskillers with great gear and your sideaand the enemies have...a chemist and a knight?
Anyway, a FAQ? About what?

[HebrewToYou]

Wow.  What an epic rant that is just so ridiculously off-the-mark!  I breezed through FFT+ without much trouble at all.  I'm at DD now and *that* is really the only insanely challenging aspect of this mod.  And I did this without resorting to save-state scumming or using a *single* non-human character -- and that includes Boco and Worker 8.  I only used those two after getting to Deep Dungeon in an attempt to bring every character up to level 99 (a task which I've almost completed).

Are you sure you applied the right patch???

[Dome]

Are you sure you applied the right patch???

Pretty much this

[Neophyte Ronin]

I followed the link from this site and patched it fine.  The version reads 1.01.  It's probably an earlier version and all my bug-reporting has been in vain (I've been keeping a tally).

I've cooled down since the last post because I devised evil ways to kill Goblins that let me through Araguay Woods, where I got perversely frustrated.  I just beat Cuchullain/Queklain earlier, didn't die once, though it took forever thanks to Auto-Protect and Defend Up running non-stop.  This is great because, in Chapter 3, you're introduced to the underground poaching circuit.  Thank God.  (I make it a point to murder every monster I meet with Secret Hunt anyway, or Train them, or poison them until they die, which is something you can do nowadays).

Knowing that all human targets during random encounters will have maintenance equipped does two things: it tells me to trade certain abilities over others, notably Steal and maybe Battle Skill, and that I know Classes will play their Classes and not have weird things like Equip Spear and Jump on a Priest.  Of course I have been committing thefts.  Getting it right on the first round at the Execution Site is the only way to keep Gafgarion from ruining your week.

If you want to rearrange or subdue the morale mechanics to prevent misuse, that's okay, but offer something in a trade-off.  Since it is possible to dismantle run-off from battle-to-battle, did you consider retooling Praise and Preach into a hard-hitting formula like (100 - Br or Fa)/ 5 + 5 and Threaten/Solution to (Br or Fa)/3 - 25?  You know, make them even more horrifying if caught in the hands of opponents.  Restructuring the Orator's abilities, other than Invite, is another matter.  The only improvement is giving Finger Guard/Earplug the ability to protect from common evil status effects (Sleep, Death Sentence/Doom, Don't Act/Disable, Berserk), which makes it a worthy ability at last.  Otherwise, whatever a Mediator/Orator can do, a mage with decent Faith can do just as well or even better.

Don't get me wrong in thinking I'm having an absolutely horrible time playing this game, or that I consider it one of the most horrible games out there.  I would not have been so critical if I thought the premise sucked entirely.  I would simply pass it by.  I didn't.  I stuck through and endured sleepless nights figuring a game out all over again, just to make sure there aren't any major bugs.  Why?  Because the original game wasn't hard enough.  It seemed half-finished, or they never considered the extent that some people would take the game.  Here, it's almost equitable.  For that, I applaud your efforts.

I'm still writing that FAQ, too, for everyone's sake.  There are some lucid moments when the challenge rating extends to the point where even a hardcore player needs a breather.  Though that was certainly the intent, the more casual players will be ripping their hair out.  If anybody designed a game like this from scratch with similar challenge rating, would it sell?  There have been games where it's hard enough to be unplayable.  This almost became one of them.

Oh, and anybody who claims that they breezed through any version of FFT+ without resorting to dirty tricks or suicide solutions is a complete braggart.  It's not kosher to assume the cloak of an IT guy who knows more about everything than computers and laugh it up when someone is genuinely struggling with a problem.  If you didn't want such extensive feedback from an alleged ranting lunatic, then you should have capped the word counts.

[Dome]

The last version is 1.01B, you should play that version (you can get it in the download topic)
Man, any game where you can simply grind to overcome difficult cannot be called hard
FFT: Plus might (Again, -MIGHT-) become hard if you limit your options (Doing some kind of challenge, decide to not grind, etc...)

Oh, and anybody who claims that they breezed through any version of FFT+ without resorting to dirty tricks or suicide solutions is a complete braggart.

Present!

[Neophyte Ronin]

Is there a way to make Tactics un-grindable?

[Dome]

Why would you want to do such a thing?
Anyway...
You can give both the player and the AI access to every job/ability/item from the start and make every unit level 99...then it becomes a "Battle rush" patch

[Kaijyuu]

Grinding's pretty damn tedious. Leveling up is fun only when incidental; when rewards are obtained as a natural consequence of unrelated goals.


One reason I prefer games to have difficulty levels is so that less-skilled players never feel obligated to grind. If people want to bore themselves to death, that's fine. When they feel they need to to progress in the game, that's no so fine.

[Dome]

The main selling point of FFT: Plus is that you don't need to grind, because the game is easy
If you want to grind to unlock a specific ability/job/item or just to play some random battle you are free to do so, and no one will punish you; On the contrary, the game will become easier because you unlock more stuff
In this way, everyone is happy, because you can adjust the level of difficult by yourself
- If you think the game is too easy, just play it without grinding at all, or play with some custom rule (3 man challenge, SCC, etc etc...)
- If you think the difficult is fine, just play each fight that comes in your way, forced or optional
- If you think a battle is too hard, just grind a bit and unlock better stuff
- If you LOVE grinding to overpower enemies and unlock better stuff, you are free to do so
Making FFT completely un-grindable is possible, but it wouldn't be FFT anymore