Argath.. What a terrible name.

[Dominic NY18]

Yes. It is a perfectly fine name and it is what the kana sound out in the original game.
I don't see any good reason to have changed it to Tietra.
I understand choosing something different than Teta, which is tit in Spanish, but I don't see any reason not to use Tita.

And I'm sure the average English speaker will think Tita -> Tit. If the game was going to be translated into Spanish, I wouldn't leave her name as Teta either, for the reason you stated.

Why not? In FF6 Terra was originally Tina. From what I remember they chose Tina because it would sound a bit exotic to the Japanese audience.
Ted Woolsey chose to change it to Terra because Tina wouldn't sound as exotic to an American audience. Maybe it was a similar situation with Tita/Tietra, but I can hardly call Tita a common name.

My above response deals with this. My problem with Tita isn't because of any perceived exoticism of lack thereof.

Actually, if they were intending the Battsu to be a German name like his surname, Klauser, then "Bartz is the correct translation.
Japanese a = ah as in watt, not like uh as in what.
The translator that chose Butz had an iD10T error.

Noted, but I brought this up to back up what I said above.

It means I know a bit about Spanish, Italian, German, and French. I've studied them all at least a little. Also, I know quite a bit about the fantasy/sci-fi media that Final Fantasy draws much of its content from.
That broad knowledge base makes it easy for me to often recognize what the kana are getting at even when the word is mangled in Japanese.

OK. My problem with this is even with in mind, that still doesn't necessarily equal knowing what they were aiming for.

Yeah, I did. Sorry. That's probably not the word I should have used. What I mean is a translation that takes probable intent, technical accuracy, possible source, and localization into consideration. Of course a translation that is more "precise" would take much longer than the average localization time most games get & is of course subjective to the translator doing the work. =P

Does that make any sense?

It does.

I've said this before elsewhere, but when it comes to the names, I'm neutral overall. I didn't care for many of the original names before, so the changes they did do don't bother me. It's obvious that even if the names in TWOTL aren't what you would have in mind when considering everything you said above, the original names aren't consistent by those standards either.

More important to me is that IMO, WOTL has better terms overall, especially when it comes to abilities and items.

[Vanya]

And I'm sure the average English speaker will think Tita -> Tit. If the game was going to be translated into Spanish, I wouldn't leave her name as Teta either, for the reason you stated.

I'd only say that about the average teenage American male, not Americans in general.

OK. My problem with this is even with in mind, that still doesn't necessarily equal knowing what they were aiming for.

No, it doesn't, but knowing more about many languages and subjects would make it easier for someone to figure it out. I'll give you an example where knowing some French spelling conventions and some knowledge of D&D lead to a translation more in tune with the intent of the original. In FF5 there is a monster called a 'Barette' (バレッテ).

You might ask yourself, "what the hell is a barette?"
The RPGe fan translation went 100% accurate and called it a 'Barette'. Not any more clear.
The PSX translator decided to call it a 'Baretta' which is a kind of gun. That just causes further confusion.
The GBA translator called it a 'Bulette'. This guy most likely played D&D, because there is a monster in that game called exactly that and it looks similar enough to the Square sprite.

If a curious individual were to look up 'Barette' they get nowhere, but if they look up 'Bulette' they'd get the D&D wiki page. So in this case who got closer to the probable intent of the designers? It was the guy that had more knowledge. See what I mean?

BTW, this thing has been around since FF1, but they tried to pass it off in the US as an ankylosaur.

It does.
I've said this before elsewhere, but when it comes to the names, I'm neutral overall. I didn't care for many of the original names before, so the changes they did do don't bother me. It's obvious that even if the names in TWOTL aren't what you would have in mind when considering everything you said above, the original names aren't consistent by those standards either.

More important to me is that IMO, WOTL has better terms overall, especially when it comes to abilities and items.

I see where you're coming from. I just think that they still both have their own level of fucked up translations that make no real sense. ...How does one get from 'Northstar Bone Crush Strike' to 'Northswain's Strike'? And who the hell is Northswain?


On a side note: This should be in a rules post on how to debate like adults. =P

[Dominic NY18]

I'd only say that about the average teenage American male, not Americans in general.

You're in denial then if you think only males teens would think that. How old do you think I am?

No, it doesn't, but knowing more about many languages and subjects would make it easier for someone to figure it out. I'll give you an example where knowing some French spelling conventions and some knowledge of D&D lead to a translation more in tune with the intent of the original. In FF5 there is a monster called a 'Barette' (バレッテ).

You might ask yourself, "what the hell is a barette?"
The RPGe fan translation went 100% accurate and called it a 'Barette'. Not any more clear.
The PSX translator decided to call it a 'Baretta' which is a kind of gun. That just causes further confusion.
The GBA translator called it a 'Bulette'. This guy most likely played D&D, because there is a monster in that game called exactly that and it looks similar enough to the Square sprite.

If a curious individual were to look up 'Barette' they get nowhere, but if they look up 'Bulette' they'd get the D&D wiki page. So in this case who got closer to the probable intent of the designers? It was the guy that had more knowledge. See what I mean?

BTW, this thing has been around since FF1, but they tried to pass it off in the US as an ankylosaur.

OK. Let's go back to what started this tangent then. Why is your translation of the names more on-point then? Is it because you make the names look more European?

I see where you're coming from. I just think that they still both have their own level of fucked up translations that make no real sense. ...How does one get from 'Northstar Bone Crush Strike' to 'Northswain's Strike'? And who the hell is Northswain?


On a side note: This should be in a rules post on how to debate like adults. =P

I don't think so. There just far too many terms in the original that are just literal translations of their Japanese counterparts.

- I know what First Strike does. I can't say the same about Hamedo.
- How about Sunken State? I think Vanish makes far more sense, even if it's no where close to the original term.
- Or Secret Fist? Doom Fist is more to the point.
- Is MP Switch a literal translation of the ability name in Japanese? Mana Shield is more fitting, considering how the ability works.
- There's also the names of the knightly orders. Only those with a knowledge of Japanese would have an idea of just what Hokuten and Nanten mean and how they compare to one another. They didn't even bother translating those names.

In your example, seeing anything like "Northstar Bone Crush Strike" would make me think it was just a literal translation.  None of the names of the abilities have meaning beyond the abilities themselves (though I'll admit that Stasis Sword is more descriptive of the effect of the ability).

Also, keep in mind that one of Ashe's Quickenings is Northswain's Glow. There's quite a few abilities in TWOTL that reference FFXII abilities:

Short Charge -> Swiftness
Martial Arts -> Brawler
Speed Save -> Adrenaline Rush
Secret Hunt-> Poach

It's obvious that FFXII was another influence of TWOTL's translation, especially in terms of abilities.

There's other examples of what I was talking about regarding the original's translation of terms and abilities. But when it comes to names that make no sense, the original is on another level.

[Vanya]

You're in denial then if you think only males teens would think that. How old do you think I am?

Not in denial, probably overestimating the intelligence and maturity of the average player. I tend to do that often.
As for your age, I don't know and I never gave it a thought.

OK. Let's go back to what started this tangent then. Why is your translation of the names more on-point then? Is it because you make the names look more European?

Because I'm looking at it from lots of different perspectives instead of what seems to me to be a narrow one.

I don't think so. There just far too many terms in the original that are just literal translations of their Japanese counterparts.

And the new one sometimes strays way far from the original without being any more descriptive. Not as bad as vanilla, but still annoying to me.

- I know what First Strike does. I can't say the same about Hamedo.

I kind of understand Hamedo because of the trend of not translating martial arts terms. They could have done a better job with consistency in the case of the Monk over all.

- How about Sunken State? I think Vanish makes far more sense, even if it's no where close to the original term.
- Or Secret Fist? Doom Fist is more to the point.
- Is MP Switch a literal translation of the ability name in Japanese? Mana Shield is more fitting, considering how the ability works.

Sunken State = Sempuku = concealment; hiding, ambush.
Vanilla: ridiculous.
WotL: concealment was fine, no need to call it vanish. Note it wasn't far off from the true original term.

Secret Fist = HikouKen? = Fatal Spot Fist?
I don't have anything but a translation that I don't trust on this one.
I wouldn't translate this one or use the more widely known term Dim Mak.

MP Switch = MP surikae = MP to switch (secretly); to substitute.
Vanilla: overly accurate, yes.
WotL: very descriptive, but they went too far with 'mana'. MP Shield would have sufficed.

- There's also the names of the knightly orders. Only those with a knowledge of Japanese would have an idea of just what Hokuten and Nanten mean and how they compare to one another. They didn't even bother translating those names.

You're right. Not translating these is unexcusable.

In your example, seeing anything like "Northstar Bone Crush Strike" would make me think it was just a literal translation.  None of the names of the abilities have meaning beyond the abilities themselves (though I'll admit that Stasis Sword is more descriptive of the effect of the ability).

Northstar Bone Crush Strike is just an example. I don't have the kanji/kana for this one and I don't trust the translation I found.
I would never use something as awkward as this.

Also, keep in mind that one of Ashe's Quickenings is Northswain's Glow. There's quite a few abilities in TWOTL that reference FFXII abilities:

Short Charge -> Swiftness
Martial Arts -> Brawler
Speed Save -> Adrenaline Rush
Secret Hunt-> Poach

It's obvious that FFXII was another influence of TWOTL's translation, especially in terms of abilities.

I'll begin by saying that I dislike the FF12 translation more than the WotL one. I suspect both were translated by the same individual(s). There are quite a few classic monsters that were mistranslated/changed for no good reason.

I tracked down the kanji/kana for Ashe's Mist Knack and it seems we had it sort of backwards. Her mist knack/quickening is named after Agrias' Holy Sword skill. Actually, all of them are named after the Holy Sword skills. I don't know who's ass they pulled 'Northswain' from. I'm guessing it must be some thing related to the north star somehow.

北斗骨砕斬 = hokuto hone saizan = Hokuto Bone Break-Beheading = ?

There's other examples of what I was talking about regarding the original's translation of terms and abilities. But when it comes to names that make no sense, the original is on another level.

Agreed.

[DarthPaul]

Norths wain loosely refers to Ursa Major.

[LastingDawn]

Ah, just about to post that, indeed Northswain is an actual star constellation if memory serves me right, Darth Paul beat me to it though, heh. Also, the FF12 translators were helped by Matsuno himself with the initial translation (many notes were given to them, personally I'd love to see if we could get a hold of them by chance...)

[Vanya]

OK. That makes sense because Hokuto is the shortened name of Ursa  Major used in Japan. You sure weren't kidding about is being loose. Seems it all originates from an old Norse name for the constellation; Odin's Wain. Also it is mentioned in the Illiad as 'the Wain'.
'Northswain' seems, basically, an amalgam of 'North Star' and 'Odin's Wain'. Wain means wagon, BTW. So it would make more sense if the move was called 'North's Wain Strike'.


Also, I'd freakin' love to have those notes.

[Dominic NY18]

Not in denial, probably overestimating the intelligence and maturity of the average player. I tend to do that often.
As for your age, I don't know and I never gave it a thought.

I think you are giving people too much credit. It's not necessarily an issue of maturity though.

(I'm 21 by the way )

And the new one sometimes strays way far from the original without being any more descriptive. Not as bad as vanilla, but still annoying to me.

Examples?

I kind of understand Hamedo because of the trend of not translating martial arts terms. They could have done a better job with consistency in the case of the Monk over all.

There's the issue. None of the monk's other abilities are left in such a state. They were all translated to some degree.

Sunken State = Sempuku = concealment; hiding, ambush.
Vanilla: ridiculous.
WotL: concealment was fine, no need to call it vanish. Note it wasn't far off from the true original term.

Secret Fist = HikouKen? = Fatal Spot Fist?
I don't have anything but a translation that I don't trust on this one.
I wouldn't translate this one or use the more widely known term Dim Mak.

MP Switch = MP surikae = MP to switch (secretly); to substitute.
Vanilla: overly accurate, yes.
WotL: very descriptive, but they went too far with 'mana'. MP Shield would have sufficed.

1. And yet the ability causes the unit to literally turn invisible...
3. How far they went wasn't my point (and really, I've no issue with using mana in this instance). My point was that it's more accurate than the original.

I'll begin by saying that I dislike the FF12 translation more than the WotL one. I suspect both were translated by the same individual(s). There are quite a few classic monsters that were mistranslated/changed for no good reason.

I tracked down the kanji/kana for Ashe's Mist Knack and it seems we had it sort of backwards. Her mist knack/quickening is named after Agrias' Holy Sword skill. Actually, all of them are named after the Holy Sword skills. I don't know who's ass they pulled 'Northswain' from. I'm guessing it must be some thing related to the north star somehow.

Well, thanks to Darthpaul and LD, we do know where it came from. And they didn't pull it out of anyone's ass apparently.

[Vanya]

1) I do give 'em too much credit sometimes, you're right. (I'm 31, BTW. ^_^)

2) Later... I'm tired now. =P

3) Very bad, I agree.

4a) FFTA2 (maybe A1 also) use invisibility status for both magical and non magical skills, so I don't think it's literal in this case.
4b) I get you, but I do take issue with it.

5) That's one point for you, Square, but I'll be back for... REVENGE!!![/i][/b]

[Ansem]

Algus is a worse name than Argath

[DarthPaul]

Algus is a worse name than Argath

Everyone is allowed their own opinion, if it's gonna get flamed though keep it to yourself, please.

[LastingDawn]

How will it be flamed? To silence opinion of this kind is really anti-productive. Algus is just a bad a name as Argath in my opinion. Argus or Argas, would have been a fine name though.

[DarthPaul]

Indeed it would be counterproductive. I should have pointed out that a reason or a replacement name would be better than just a statement. Like you post, I too believe that Argus would be a much better name in such regards.

[goldblade0]

somewhat related, for some reason I allways thought Teta was pronounced with the 2nd T silent.

[DarthPaul]

That is an interesting rendition of her name.

Does that mean you got her name sounding something like Tehah?

[goldblade0]

Actually it was more just Teah

[Ansem]

Teitra did not get as much focus as she should have. She should have been a guest or something. I mean, if your going to have her as a "Guest" at Zeikdan and she has a job with abilities than why shouldn't she use them? Of course that would mean I couldn't edit her skill set with the Text Editor or make skillsets.