FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread

[Gaignun]

Having Mage Masher do MP damage is cool with me.  That weapon is pretty bland right now.  I don't think additional WP and stats are necessary, but adding an element could be really neat.  With the right equipment, the weapon could be used to replenish teammates' MP.  Something like:

Mage Masher: 9 WP, 15 W-EV, +1 Move, Holy Element, MP damage

Then casters could equip Chameleon Robe or Magic Ring (a caster-friendly accessory) to absorb the MP damage.

On the subject of element-absorbing weapons, we could also add Absorb: Holy to the tragically underwhelming White Staff to increase the number of options for absorbing Mage Masher damage.

[Reks]

Having Mage Masher do MP damage is cool with me.  That weapon is pretty bland right now.  I don't think additional WP and stats are necessary, but adding an element could be really neat.  With the right equipment, the weapon could be used to replenish teammates' MP.  Something like:

Mage Masher: 9 WP, 15 W-EV, +1 Move, Holy Element, MP damage

Then casters could equip Chameleon Robe or Magic Ring (a caster-friendly accessory) to absorb the MP damage.

On the subject of element-absorbing weapons, we could also add Absorb: Holy to the tragically underwhelming White Staff to increase the number of options for absorbing Mage Masher damage.

Huh, so absorbing an attack that'd do MP damage heals it instead? That's... Actually pretty cool. Might see some recoveries after a Bizen-Boat nuke as a counter to interruptions.

I can get behind that.

[dw6561]

Absorbing MP damage? That sound wicked awesome. Let's do it. That could be a nice alternative to ether/carbunkle/spell absorb. Also, I'd like to see Mage Magsher still be dual weildable to use as combos with other things, but if this isn't possible then I understand.

I could get behind Absorb: holy on white staff, because there aren't really enough ways to absorb it.

Also speaking of absorb, since oil doesn't affect holy absorb, would there be any counter to this? I guess weapon break will get a better role considering it isn't used too often now (head break/armor break more appealing to reduce HP caps, get rid of absorb, etc).

Any particular reason why we seem to link elements to different statuses? Like oil to fire, blind to holy, etc? I know those are statuses that the AI doesn't use very often but is there any other reason?

[Gaignun]

Thematic consistency, I suppose.  Fire, Ice, Bolt, and Water were given status ailments years ago to buff Black Magic, which was underwhelming at the time.  Summon Magic was buffed in this fashion at the same time.

Among the recent changes, I proposed that Fire Shield adds Oil immunity and Ice Shield adds Slow immunity to allow teams to absorb friendly tier 1 Fire and Ice spells without becoming afflicted with the accompanying status ailment.

As for Mage Masher, it would be nice to make it dual-wieldable, wouldn't it?  Pairing it with an HP damaging weapon would be the only way to proactively drain MP.  However, I have a premonition: Put Mage Masher on a Thief with stacked SP, and the Thief will devour the opposing team's MP pool in a flash.  It would be like a miniature Bizen Boat that the AI uses every turn, and we all know how destructive Bizen Boat can be.

If the AI restored MP as actively as HP, then I wouldn't see a problem with a dual-wieldable Mage Masher.  But since replenishing lost MP is such a pain, I would advise against the motion.

[Shintroy]

I love the idea of an elemental MP damage weapon Gaigun. It would go above and beyond what I suggested since it would open up even more possibilities with absorb teams and grand cross. Imagine having a MP disrupting, MP healing, grand cross unit. So much potential. Sounds more fun everyone testing healing staff.

Reks imagine a berserked MP damage unit for a moment. Even more terrifying if it's two sword or two handable. Would the AI attack the same unit since berserk is supposedly based on attacking the nearest unit until death, or would it instead attack units that don't have 0 MP? Definitely interested in finding out.

Also I'd like some input on this guide posted in the AI Team Building thread. It's about my new find for mimes and 100% avoiding the mime weapon mime bug.

spoiler: Weapon Mimes

2016, Year of the mime

Left Handed Mimes
It's been over a year since 139 came out and everyone learned about mime's weapon bugs. It's also known that mimes can use shields in their left hand. Realizing this, I went and found out mimes can also equip weapons the same way they equip shields, in their left hand.

Attack Command
A mime will attack with his or her fist if they choose to attack over an ability. They will keep their weapon however, so no crippling issue there.

One Handed Weapons Only
Since the weapon must be equipped in the left hand it goes without saying having a weapon that uses the right hand will cause the mime to lose it's weapon.

Teammates must be right handed.
The main reason this will work. It probably works both ways, but it's been confirmed units don't get the full benifits of a weapon's evasion if it's in the left hand. Mimes have a lot of base evasion to spare so it's best to just have the mime left handed.

Teammates can not use Forced 2H weapons
Knight Swords
Stone Gun
Magic Guns
Gastrophetes
Longbow weapon class

Two Swords and Berserk Bug
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xkm96eFjVtE
It's not known exactly why this happens, but as far as I can tell berserked and/or weapon mimes mimicking two sword units will cause a mime to equip abilities thus rendering them useless depending on their secondary. The bug looks like a round shield and feather hat equipped in the main and offhand slots. If berserked the mime's attack command becomes a bugged ability graphic that will never actually connect with a target. If the mime isn't berserked it will always wait if they don't have any ability options.

Two Hands
As long as the weapon is equipped in the right hand it will not bug the mime. Samurai, Two Hand Thieves, Two handed Slashers are all fair game.

Multiple Mimes
The mime equipping other mime's weapon bug still applies. See The Damned's post for more details
Having a mime on on the same team as a weapon mime will equip that mime with said weapon. This opens new possibilities since it'll be possible to have 3 of the same type of weapon on one team without breaking rules.
As long as the team follows the rules above neither mime will lose their weapon

Enemy Mimes
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7lxbkphFpxw
I haven't tested this yet, but I'm guessing the first mime to use an ability involving their weapon will equip other mimes on the field with said weapon.  I'll confirm this later
Having a Grand Cross Mime equip a non-compatible weapon will be suicidal for the mime so know the risks in using some mime builds.

Charm
If a weapon mime gets charmed they have a chance of losing their weapon if the opposing team uses weapons listed above. Chakra Band prevents this, but it's still good to know.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
I didn't take the AI tournament like I wanted to this year, but it's looking like this year will be better for mime with this find. Good Luck to everyone using weapon mimes from this point on. Have a good mimeingful new year

[Reks]

Reks imagine a berserked MP damage unit for a moment. Even more terrifying if it's two sword or two handable. Would the AI attack the same unit since berserk is supposedly based on attacking the nearest unit until death, or would it instead attack units that don't have 0 MP? Definitely interested in finding out.

Except you know how Berserk works. The AI would go "DIE DIE DIE" to the nearest enemy, attacking (even if the map is in the way) until the unit is dead...

Except with an MP weapon never will. Yeah, it can be superb for interruption, and paired with Two Swords (if that's available for it) can be good.

But it can be dangerous to give a weapon that can't kill to a unit who can only attack. Should worse come to worse, it'll be easy for that unit to be completely useless.



I still like the weapon itself, though.

Edit: I didn't mean to sound angry or shut-downish to the idea. I love to play with berserk, and I like the idea of the MP weapon now after I've thought more about what the AI can do with it.

I just really doubt the effectiveness of an MP berserker because after the first MP destruction, they're likely to follow that same unit around and not really do damage, and since that's Berserk's whole stick (aside from shutting mages down), it just makes me question the logic a bit.

All in all I'm supportive of the weapon itself, but I find that combining it with the simple actions a Berserk unit uses actually weakens the potential.

[silentkaster]

Thematic consistency, I suppose.  Fire, Ice, Bolt, and Water were given status ailments years ago to buff Black Magic, which was underwhelming at the time.  Summon Magic was buffed in this fashion at the same time.

Among the recent changes, I proposed that Fire Shield adds Oil immunity and Ice Shield adds Slow immunity to allow teams to absorb friendly tier 1 Fire and Ice spells without becoming afflicted with the accompanying status ailment.

As for Mage Masher, it would be nice to make it dual-wieldable, wouldn't it?  Pairing it with an HP damaging weapon would be the only way to proactively drain MP.  However, I have a premonition: Put Mage Masher on a Thief with stacked SP, and the Thief will devour the opposing team's MP pool in a flash.  It would be like a miniature Bizen Boat that the AI uses every turn, and we all know how destructive Bizen Boat can be.

If the AI restored MP as actively as HP, then I wouldn't see a problem with a dual-wieldable Mage Masher.  But since replenishing lost MP is such a pain, I would advise against the motion.

Having it trigger a reaction like "MP Restore" could balance a dual wieldable mage masher, I feel. It would also be nice to see some other MP restoration methods other than the seeming monopoly "Move-MP UP" seems to have on casters, so that might be a benefit of using that for it instead of Move-MP UP.

Also, balancing the weapon to stay in line with Average MP totals (as opposed to HP) will make the weapon not "MP one shot" most mages with the correct gear. For example, a perfectly balanced dual wielded repel knife will only one shot the weakest of HP totals as long as both shots connect. This could be the same with MP perhaps. We could also add some MP to robes if we're still worried.

Actually, I was thinking making the White Staff one of the MP draining weapons (similar to Blood Sword's HP draining) would be good on the White Staff, but your idea is nice too, Gaignun. I'd be happy with either of those, especially if Mage Masher gets the Holy Element (then a team could put White Staff in the weapon slot to absorb their team's shots.)

[Gaignun]

The Move-MP UP monopoly is consistent with my concern: The AI sucks at healing MP damage, so players rely in restoring MP automatically.  Unlike HP, whose restoration overrides offense when reduced to 50% of its maximum, the AI restores MP only when there is nothing else to do.  Consequently, unless a caster has some means of replenishing its own MP (possible with only Item and Punch Art, both of which aren't attractive on a caster), a caster's MP tends to stay depleted.  Since the AI treats HP and MP differently like this, I don't believe HP damage and MP damage are equatable in terms of their respective maxima.

If we enable the AI to proactively drain MP, we should also enable it to proactively restore it, or at the very least give casters a few attractive means of restoring their own MP from 0.  Removing Carbunkle's and Spell Absorb's MP cost would be a start.  Implementing a "MP Regen" status effect (or having Regen also restore MP) and tuning MP Restore would be others.

[dw6561]

If we enable the AI to proactively drain MP, we should also enable it to proactively restore it, or at the very least give casters a few attractive means of restoring their own MP from 0.  Removing Carbunkle's and Spell Absorb's MP cost would be a start.  Implementing a "MP Regen" status effect (or having Regen also restore MP) and tuning MP Restore would be others.

I was going to suggest a tactics A2 based system where units start with 0 MP and it restores 10 MP per turn, but that wouldn't allow us to use stuff like quickening or haste 2 very well would it?

I like the idea of regen restoring MP as I'm not sure the AI would use an MP regen status proactively (unless it replaces wall, then it might be a little too proactive?). Also what do you mean by tuning MP restore?

[silentkaster]

Well, I think like Bizen Boat, the AI won't attack too often unless it knows it can midcharge or in other rare instances. I guess with Berserk, it would work better, but that's a big risk the player takes as demonstrated by Reks' argument earlier...it's just not going to be extremely effective.

With 2s and 2h (especially 2s), the AI does get a bit more melee aggressive. But it still knows the HP damage it will do will be zero. So it will probably use just many other skills that is given to the unit before settling on using the 2s and prioritize those if it can. I don't see the AI going on an MP killing spree just because it's 2s, but perhaps that can be tested. WKW, is this something you've tried per chance in one of your mods? Perhaps one of the more active modders will see this post and answer if you've experimented with this if WKW isn't around?

Also what do you mean by tuning MP restore?

MP Restore probably has one of, if not the, worst reliability in the game for MP restoration. Move-MP UP has the monopoly because it doesn't require getting hit or AI "actions" in order to actively restore MP. However, a weakness to Move-MP UP is Witch Hunt, and to a lesser extent, Bizen Boat and Magic Ruin. Witch Hunt, while active, will shut down Move-MP UP once the MP pool reaches 0 for the first time. Bizen Boat and Magic Ruin, if it drains the MP to 0, will waste the turn of the charging unit (if it was charging) and cause the unit to not use an MP based move the following turn even if it recovers enough MP to use a skill in that move. It is similar to when a unit heals themselves of "Don't Move" but then will not move.

Absorb MP is situational with Lore, Song, and counters Witch Hunt better than any other MP restoration ability. Even "action" abilities like Ether, Angel Song and Carbunkle are better than MP Restore in most cases. Yes, in the case of Carbunkle and Angel Song you must have MP to perform the action to start, and sometimes the AI does run itself into the ground casting, but it's at least somewhat aware.

MP Restore does not Counter Witch Hunt, Bizen Boat or any other MP damaging abilities. It relies on the unit having ALL of the following circumstances met:

1. Unit gets targeted by HP damaging attack
2. Unit receives HP damage (in other words, does not dodge) and lives through it
3. Unit does not get disabling status inflicted
4. The reaction actually triggers

Therefore, if your HP is too high, your unit is unlikely to be targeted to begin with but if it's too low, you run the risk of damage just killing the character and even when it doesn't, if it causes a status like Don't Act or Stop, the reaction will certainly not go off, and then you run the risk of the reaction just flat out not triggering. In fact, the only "good" use I see for the reaction is when a moderate HP unit that you kind of want to get damaged has it equipped (example, a Grand Crossing Squire). To be fair, MP Restore should not trigger off Witch Hunt since that ability is perfectly countered by Absorb MP. MP Restore would further deplete the already difficult to use ability.

So, yeah...I've been advocating MP Restore, and arguably Absorb MP, need to trigger off Bizen Boat and (in the case of MP Restore only since Absorb MP already triggers off this next ability) Magic Ruin. To Bizen Boat, there is really no effective counter at the moment, and MP Restore triggering off Bizen Boat would solve that. It would also help if we indeed implemented a weapon that did MP Damage to have that trigger the MP Restore reaction. If that's the case, there'd be a lot of different reasons to use any of these abilities (MP Restore, Move-MP UP and Absorb MP) and all would arguably protect you from different scenarios relative to MP.

[Reks]

I was going to suggest a tactics A2 based system where units start with 0 MP and it restores 10 MP per turn

Tactics Ogre does the same thing, but at a % of the max MP of the unit. If an ASM for this is in fact possible, it'd change the metagame completely (depending on the % or whatever people would agree on).

You probably wouldn't get beat down right away on anything but the smallest maps by the most dedicated melee units, but the flow of the game would certainly change.



For the better? Potentially, but a lot of things would need rebalancing.

As for MP Restore... It's a tricky one.

[Barren]

Maybe MP Restore can trigger when the unit is at least below 50% health as opposed to when you get hit. Just a thought

[dw6561]

Maybe MP Restore can trigger when the unit is at least below 50% health as opposed to when you get hit. Just a thought

Wouldn't that make it trigger less often instead of more? Unless you mean regardless if damage is actually delt. Can you elaborate a little?

I see MP restore being more useful for offensive casters and melee units instead of healers, so one way we can make it more effective is by making it trigger upon dodging as well as being hit, similar to status adding reactions like dragon spirit.

Also, here's an idea for a weapon. Would it be possible to have a weapon that does normal HP damage, but recovers like half the damage done in MP to the user. Kind of like blood sword, but recovering MP instead of HP and still doing HP damage. That would fix the issue of the AI not attacking with it, although it won't be too useful for a berserked unit and absorb would make the user lose MP.

[Barren]

To clarify what I mean, what if the AI's HP is below 50% and anytime after that it can trigger MP Restore. Of course that would require that unit to have considerable defense and/or HP to do it. It feels like a free MP refill every time you get hit is making ethers almost unnecessary

[Kurosabes]

I think MP Restore just isn't fit to be a reaction, not without introducing new trigger mechanics like Barren's suggestion. Perhaps it should be a support instead, which grants the user Always: Mist (MP Regen).

With 2s and 2h (especially 2s), the AI does get a bit more melee aggressive. But it still knows the HP damage it will do will be zero. So it will probably use just many other skills that is given to the unit before settling on using the 2s and prioritize those if it can. I don't see the AI going on an MP killing spree just because it's 2s, but perhaps that can be tested. WKW, is this something you've tried per chance in one of your mods? Perhaps one of the more active modders will see this post and answer if you've experimented with this if WKW isn't around?

Unless there's already a [DmgMP_(Weapon)] formula ASM somewhere on the site (or similar), I can't really test it. I could use the Dark Sword formula as an alternative, but the AI may not behave in the same manner due to the absorb part. *shrug*

[Andrew]

I think MP Restore just isn't fit to be a reaction, not without introducing new trigger mechanics like Barren's suggestion. Perhaps it should be a support instead, which grants the user Always: Mist (MP Regen).

I know that I'm a bit late to the discussion, but if MP Restore gets turned into a support skill, then can its old reaction skill slot be turned into "Piety"?  Piety could apply Faith to the user when struck by an attack; or, to be specific (if it's even possible), an UnFury attack.  I think this would fit into the game nicely if the Netherseer's ever implemented.

[Kurosabes]

MP Restore wouldn't free up a Reaction slot since it simply just gets tagged as a Support, but some other useless Reaction such as Gilgame Heart could be replaced. Or Reflect if it ever gets coded into the game.

[Reks]

MP Restore wouldn't free up a Reaction slot since it simply just gets tagged as a Support, but some other useless Reaction such as Gilgame Heart could be replaced. Or Reflect if it ever gets coded into the game.

A reaction to add reflect seems pretty nifty.

Besides, if Chrono Trigger can add Haste (arguably more 'powerful' than Reflect), I don't think that a Reflect Reaction is asking for too much.

[Andrew]

Ah, okay, thanks for clearing that up, W. K. Wiegraf.  A Reflect reaction would indeed be pretty neat, and not OP at all.  If this is implemented, maybe Reflect Mail and Reflect Ring could grant "always: Reflect" instead?

[Barren]

Not sure if everyone will be in favor for Auto Reflect. I had a similar suggestion with having auto reflect ready and not many people were thrilled about it because there's not many people that would use raise + reflect because it can backfire.

But then again, you can still resurrection with fairy and items. Plus reflect shenanigans are often times a example of AI brilliance when they bounce spells off of units. My idea at the time was change the Crystal Shield to a Mirror shield where it offers High P-EV and no M=EV but has Always Reflect. Hopefully now some people will be on board with that