FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread

[Kurosabes]

Even in the event of crossbows ignoring evasion, an Archer can still achieve better results with a bow and Hawk's Eye. That thing does 100% Poison and Oil, plus it ignores Blind, all of which can be done from a greater range than a crossbow with significantly higher damage (especially if the crossbows lose WP in exchange). All of this for 12 MP. That, I believe, is what makes the status crossbows pointless to use. Especially Poison Bow.

I would give them elements, like so:

Poison Crossbow: Dark
Hunting Bow: Earth
Silencer: Wind/Water
Night Killer: Holy


All/Most of them wouldn't require 108 Gems to strengthen their element, unlike bows (except Silver via Golden Hairpin), leaving the accessory slot open. So you have some medium damage, a fair chance of status proc, and the possibility to heal allies. I think that would be a nice addition to them that woudn't make them overpowering or anything, just give them an extra function because as they are now, no matter the buffs they get, they'll get outperformed by abilities like Hawk's Eye and Kagesougi.

[dw6561]

I like the idea of elements on crossbows. That alone would make me want to use them more. I don't know about making them unevadable though. Hawk's eye definitely should be changed. Maybe we could change it to only inflict poison or only oil, but I think the real deal here is that it ignores blind, from what everyone has been saying. Why does it ignore blind anyway? Is it the formula that's used for it?

[Gaignun]

My breakdown of archer equipment options is as follows:

• For power, choose longbows or spellguns


• For defense, choose Romanda Gun or crossbows

The problem is that the majority of archers are choosing option 1 (spellguns last patch, longbows current patch) most of the time.  In addition to their high damage and long range, longbows also provide +1 SP and can be made 100% accurate with Hawk's Eye.  If we remove the SP bonuses and make Hawk's Eye subject to P-EV (or at least Blind), and if we also provide a more attractive selection of shields, then option 2 will become more attractive in turn.

And concerning option 2, one can choose between Romanda Gun for reliable, but weak damage, or crossbows for higher, but unreliable damage.  Posed thus, a crossbow that is unevadable (i.e. more reliable), but weaker would be functionally indistinguishable from Romanda Gun.  The difference between guns and crossbows is not so much a balance of raw power as a division of purpose.  Consequently, I am reluctant to endorse improving crossbows in this fashion.  If crossbows absolutely need a buff, it would be best to consider an alternative (such as making them elemental as wkw suggests).

This is an aside, but to make a quantitative comparison that reflects the difference in purpose between crossbow and Romanda Gun, it is best to calculate expectation values that incorporate target evasion.  A crossbow has equal expected damage when

WPc = WPg^2 / (PA*HIT)

where

• WPc is crossbow WP


• WPg is Romanda Gun WP


• PA is the archer's physical attack


• HIT is the hit chance of the crossbow

Setting WPg = 10, we obtain the graph below.  Each line is a contour of equivalent expected damage.  For fair comparison, assume the archer has 10 PA (i.e., no PA-boosting equipment).  Then, a 12 WP crossbow would be more powerful than a Romanda Gun as long as the crossbow's hit rate is approximately 84% or higher.  In other words, crossbows are more powerful against units with little to no evasion (e.g., monks, samurai, mages).  (Of course, the crossbow can inflict its target with a status ailment as a bonus.)

[Elmdork]

That's really awesome, gaigun. Thanks for putting the graph together, it literally illustrates your point perfectly. I urge people to at least give crossbows a shot (pun totally intended) they are actually really strong in conjunction with a shield. It's like having a gun you can customize to suit your units' specific needs. Swift plate gives you the speed, escutcheon gives crazy evade and the genji shield boosts pa.. what more do you need? (not to mention the equation is based solely on pa in case you're a slow unit) The way the AI behaves, they'll always target the unit with the lowest hp if in range, which more often than not is a mage, making the silencer particularly strong. Don't forget squires can equip crossbows too, so the equipment/ability combinations are endless.

The only reason you don't see me using them all the time is because i find archery/gunning a bit boring to watch, though they are an integral part of the game and it's more a matter of preference than a balance thing.

[Heroebal]

Just some of my suggestions/more thoughts on the long ranged weapons (longbows, crossbows, and guns) issue: didn't mean to be late to the discussion. Not sure if these idea's/suggestion would help balance things out.

Current setup:
Weapon--> wp / w-ev/ range/ stats/ element/ special/ 2H / 2S/

Guns: formula WP*WP (concentrate innate)
Romanda Gun--> 10/0%/r8/st-0/el-N/sp-N/2H-N/2S-N/ can equip shield with it
Mythril Gun--> 8/0%/r6/+2MA/el-N/sp-N/2H-N/2S-N/can equip shield
Stone Gun--> 12/0%/r4/st-0/el-N/sp-initial petrify/2H-Forced/2S-N/1 or 2 units initial turn tied up
Blaze Gun--> 13/0%/r4/st-0/el-fire/sp-Fire2/2H-F/2S-N/ can be boosted,absorbed
Glacier Gun-->12/0%/r4/st-0/el-ice/sp-Ice2/2H-F/2S-N/ boosted,absorbed
Blast Gun--> 11/0%/r4/st-0/el-light/sp-Bolt2/2H-F/2S-N/ boosted, absorbed

Crossbows: formual PA*PA
**Bow Gun--> 10/0%/r4/st0/el-N/sp-50% armor break/2H-N/2S-N/ Can equip shield**...See note below**
Night Killer-->10/0%/st0/r4/el-N/sp-50% blind/2H-N/2S-N/ can equip shield
Silencer-->12/0%/r4/st0/el-N/sp-50% silence/2H-N/2S-N/ can equip shield
Poison Bow-->12/0%/st0/r4/el-N/sp-50% poison/2H-N/2S-N/can equip shield
Hunting Bow-->10/0%/st0/r4/el-N/sp-50% DM/2H-N/2S-N/can equip shield
Gastrafitis-->16/0%/st0/r4/el-N/sp-N/2H-F/2S-N


Longbows: [(PA + Sp) / 2] * WP, (arc range)
Longbow--> 12/10%/r7/st-1M/el-N/sp-N/2H-F/2S-N/arc range, go over obstacles+high ground adv
Silverbow-->14/10%/r6/st-1MA/el-Holy/sp-20% Holy/2H-F/2S-N/arc range, over obstacles, HG Adv
Ice bow--> 12/10%/r6/st-2MA,1SP/el-Ice/sp-25% stop/2H-F/2S-N/arc, over obs, HG Adv
Lightning bow--> 12/10%/r6/st-2MA,1SP/el-Light/sp-25% DA/2H-F/2S-N/arc, over, HG Adv
Windslash bow--> 12/10%/r6/st-1SP/el-wind/sp-20% hurricane/2H-F/2S-N/arc,over,HG Adv
Atheist bow--> 15/10%/r4/st0/el-N/sp-100% innocent/2H-F/2S-N/arc,over,HG adv
Utlimus bow--> 14/10%/r5/st-1PA/el-N/sp-N/2H-F/2S-N/arc,over,HG adv


**Bowguns I do not believe the armor break is working/triggering. I ran it against my dumbytestteam and let them get struck 35 times with bowgun armor break did not trigger once....**   <--disregard this I just found the shieldrender/bowgun armor break note, it works just doesn't animate.

(neither of these teams are legal what-so-ever just for testing purposes..), testing bowguns just to test bowguns and dumbytestteams just to test damage intake/output (they just sit there and get hit like a practice dumby...)

spoiler: testing bowguns/ 2015-10-17

Player: Heroebal
Team: testing bowguns
Palettes: Black/Green
Last Revision: 2015-10-17

================================

Bowgun 1
male
aries
70
40
squire
punch art
counter
concentrate
warpath
bow gun
crystal shield
green beret
power sleeve
power wrist

Accumulate, Heal, Yell, Wish
Stigma Magic, Chakra, Revive

================================

bowgun 2
male
sagittarius
70
40
squire
punch art
counter
concentrate
warpath
bow gun
escutcheon ii
green beret
brigandine
cherche

Accumulate, Heal, Yell, Wish
Stigma Magic, Chakra, Revive

================================

bowgun 3
male
sagittarius
70
40
squire
punch art
counter
concentrate
warpath
bow gun
escutcheon ii
green beret
brigandine
cherche

Accumulate, Heal, Yell, Wish
Stigma Magic, Chakra, Revive

================================

bowgun 4
male
sagittarius
70
40
squire
punch art
counter
concentrate
warpath
bow gun
escutcheon ii
green beret
brigandine
cherche

Accumulate, Heal, Yell, Wish
Stigma Magic, Chakra, Revive

================================

spoiler: Dumbytestteam / 2015-09-21

Player: Heroebal
Team: Dumbytestteam
Palettes: White/Black
Last Revision: 2015-09-21

================================

dumby 1
Male
Serpentarius
40
40
Monk
Chivalry
Auto Potion
Unyielding

P Bag
H Bag
Chakra Band
Maximillian
Iron Boots

Stigma Magic, Chakra, Revive
Nurse, Transfusion, Iron Will, Reraise

================================

dumby 2
Male
Serpentarius
40
40
Paladin
Item
Auto Potion
Unyielding

FS Bag
Persia
Chakra Band
Maximillian
Iron Boots

Nurse, Transfusion, Iron Will, Reraise
Hi-Potion, X-Potion, Ether, Hi-Ether, Antidote, Chrono's Tear, Echo Grass, Maiden's Kiss, Soft, Holy Water, Bandage, Phoenix Down

================================

dumby 3
Female
Serpentarius
40
40
Samurai
Basic Skill
Auto Potion
Unyielding

C Bag
C Bag
Chakra Band
Maximillian
Iron Boots

Murasame, Masamune
Focus, Heal, Wish

================================

dumby 4
Male
Serpentarius
40
40
Mime
Item
Auto Potion
Unyielding

C Bag
FS Bag
Grand Helmet
Maximillian
Iron Boots

Hi-Potion, X-Potion, Ether, Hi-Ether, Antidote, Chrono's Tear, Echo Grass, Maiden's Kiss, Soft, Holy Water, Bandage, Phoenix Down

================================

Suggested Changes/ideas:
Guns-->I think these are fine besides stone gun and maybe inclusion of the demi and other gun ideas.

Stone gun- I think something could be added to be worth being stoned off the start, as is I believe gastrafitis can do almost everything better than stone gun. I think stone guns best usage right now is constant unaviodable damage no matter what equipment set up for chemist/mediators. Archers with attack up or concentrated gassy's outperform it AFAIK.

I think maybe the earth elemental and/or earth spells ideas could help and/or maybe add some stats like either increased wp or +1-2pa or +1MA/1PA. Other ideas it could proc petrify or cancel earth dmg. <-- Some of these changes could make archer's punch art too strong though, I think A Monk/Dancer's Punch art still slightly outperform the archer's punch art, but if too much maybe archer's lose guns??

Crossbows-->
Bow Gun--> I believe this might be fine as is, now that I've seen it in action. Especially if you compare if with romanda gun (like Gaignun did above). Maybe a +1 or +2pa if anything.
Night Killer--> I think this could be 12 like silencer/poison bow or maybe 10wp add 50% add silence and/or slow
Silencer--> moves to longbow 15/10%/r4/el-N/sp-100% silence/rest same as longbow setup
Atheist bow--> becomes a crossbow 12 or 10WP/0%/r4/st0/el-N/sp-50% innocent/rest same as xbow setup
Poison bow--> renamed Hawk's Eye bow same stats but sp-50% add poison,oil
Hunting bow--> I think fine as is
Gastrafitis--> fine as is

Some of the elemental ideas could be implemented on the crossbows too.
**Silencer/atheist switch I think this might alleviate some of the innocent potency (w/ being able to equip shield as a trade off for no arc range/50% reduced proc, if equip shield too much then make it 2H-F). It would still giving longbow users an anti-mage option. .**

Longbows:
Just silencer becoming longbow and atheist bow moves over to xbows.

[dw6561]

I don't think stone gun or anything ranged for that matter should be able to proc petrify, but adding stats to the stone gun could be viable. I would also be okay with an earth elemental stone gun, but would the initial petrify be a good cost for elemental boosted damage?

I definitely agree with the silencer/atheist bow switch. Even though the Atheist Bow has only 4 range, the range also increases with hieght. As a crossbow, this range will stay at 4 and will be way less potent. It will also be a good way to make crossbows more useful.

[silentkaster]

IDK about an Earth Elemental but Stone Gun needs a buff. I'd say don't make it 2H. While I'm okay with the range not being altered since...it is unevadable and can't even be effected by Blind, merely being allowed to equip a shield actually puts this gun on par with the Gastrafitis.

[Barren]

If we leave stone gun two handed then I think increasing its range to 5 would be fine because 4 range is a bit crippling. It might as well be a shotgun.

[Reks]

Meatbone Slash is more of an ability and ignores the special property of weapons

Used it with a two-handed Blood Sword. HP steal didn't apply.

Not sure if this is news or some hidden thing people "knew", but figured I'd let it be known otherwise.

[Heroebal]

If we leave stone gun two handed then I think increasing its range to 5 would be fine because 4 range is a bit crippling. It might as well be a shotgun.

Too bad you couldn't make like the cone range damage like psp version has b/c then you could make it operate like a shotgun w/ spread dmg. I think that could be cool.

[Kurosabes]

One way to emulate a Shotgun would be to greatly increase the crit rate for a knockback effect.

[Gaignun]

Can crit rates be modified by weapon?  That would be a really cool feature.

What if we removed Stone Gun's initial petrify?  Would that be enough?

[Andrew]

Can crit rates be modified by weapon?  That would be a really cool feature. ....

Yeah, I believe one of RavenOfRazgriz's (?) worksheets has this feature.  I know that it's part of one of the worksheets, anyway.

.... What if we removed Stone Gun's initial petrify?  Would that be enough?

Honestly, that sounds perfect to me.  This change alone would make it much more appealing, as it would no longer depend on at least one of four skills in order to function at all.  Chirijiraden is the perfect example of a "special needs" weapon that's balanced well.

[dw6561]

I would be okay with stone gun loosing it's initial petrify. I still think it needs another benefit or difference from gastrafitis, but doing this is probably the best way to start.

[silentkaster]

If we remove initial petrify, the name should probably change. I think I might be okay with that, though I don't think increasing its range to 5 would hurt either.

[Gaignun]

If we are keen to conform to the Ivalice universe, Final Fantasy XII provides many guns from which we can appropriate a name.  All guns are named after the brightest stars of their respective constellations.

Altair
Capella
Vega
Sirius
Betelgeuse
Ras Algethi
Aldebaran
Spica
Antares
Arcturus
Fomalhaut (Oh, beautiful Fomalhaut.  My low-level challenge would have been impossible without you.)

[silentkaster]

So largely it seems that there should be two new classes (Netherseer and Onion Knight)

Could write up stats and equips and such for them just to be more exact, but I'm bad at that.

So I'll recap what I can remember off the top of my head for retrospection and/or more ideas:

Change/Fix Ultima, Tsumazuku, Bad Luck
Largely removing speed altering
Netherseers and UnFury spells
Quaknado gaining CT
Shields losing largely losing elemental weakness/gaining more interesting resistances/buffs
Katana sword procs
Masamune yet again
Jump CT based on Jump Movement instead of Speed
Spears improve Jump Move instead of Speed
Samurai gains Spears and Bows (historical accuracy+ job improvements)
Paladins gain Flails, perhaps lose Katanas
Squires lose Books and gain Poles (historical accuracy + more room for offensive polemen/women)
Poison/Regen changes. MP versions as well?
Wizards raised above the current Wizard+ Scholars via MA
Summoners become MP oceans
Spell/Life Absorb becomes based on something other than max HP/MP%
Demi Gun, maybe a Cure Gun (Celdia's CCP2 has a gun that heals on hit instead, for example, but gotta watch that WP for abuse)


So there's that on the table

One more idea that I think most people agreed with was a reaction ability giving charging/performing units access to evasion. No idea what a name for that would be though.

[silentkaster]

Summoner, Secondary, MP Switch, Support, Move-MP Up, Robe of Lords for an easy 250+ HP/MP and you've got yourself an interesting unit.
MP Switch on a martial arts monk would also be interesting since they have a decent base MP pool and high HP.

Can we get an always reflect item by the way? Just make it so reflect isn't active while dead like a salty rage unit.

Double post!!! (Not a fan of double posting usually but meh...)

I'd actually be in favor of reflect being active while dead. I agree with WKW, it should be on the Reflect Ring so Cursed Ring users can't dodge Raise 2 permanently. But...I'd say to the team using Raise/Raise 2...if your Always: Reflect unit goes down...you need to have a different form of revival to support. Isn't this how it is in Vanilla? (I could be wrong. Haven't played Vanilla is a little while.)

I think we'd actually see a higher number of people putting the Reflect Ring on their users with Raise 2...

Edit: I see one of my favorite team builders often lurking...I wonder if said person will come back to Arena??? Guess we'll find out...

[Kurosabes]

I really question whether Raise should restore 45% HP instead of 50. Because at 50% HP or above, the AI will not bother healing. This means you have a revived unit but he remains at ~50% HP, which makes him an easy target. On the flip side, some may choose Raise over something like Revive or Fairy because they judge its not necessary to heal above 50% and just jump right back into the action instead of wasting an extra turn healing. So my question is, do you prefer your unit staying at 50-60% HP or you'd rather have them heal themselves or be healed beyond that?

[Andrew]

I'm one of those people that uses Raise so my units don't bother "wasting" a turn or two healing.  I would switch to Raise 2 and make it work somehow if Raise's healing is lowered to 45%.