FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread

[Reks]

I know. I'm just trying to help.  If you really want SP in the formula, then SP*WP is a good upper limit.  We just gotta avoid those SP*SP products. 

Maybe add a /2, or a /3 in there?

SP*WP would be abusable because Speed stacking and equipping, say, the Chaos Blade.

[Barren]

I know you're trying to help Gaignun. I appreciate your honest opinion. It's just hard sometimes to come up with something that can make everyone happy. So no worries there

[Kurosabes]

Is it possible for a weapon to increase crit % as a buff?


I think that would be cool to add to maybe a katana or something. 25% increased chance of a critical strike? I'm not sure what the crit chance is currently (like 1-2%?) but it's pretty low, I think being able to increase it could be an attractive option to some people. I know I would use it, at least.

It's possible with secondadvent's Crit Rate ASM (it's in one of Raven's workbooks) to have a different crit rate on any individual weapon or even monster. There is also an extra ASM to have a helm/armor/accessory that can double the crit rate. It would definitely add more variety.

[CT5Holy]

Maybe add a /2, or a /3 in there?

SP*WP would be abusable because Speed stacking and equipping, say, the Chaos Blade.

With SP*WP, the upper limit would be (I think) 238 with AUP (Thief with AUP, Tactician's Blade/Thief Hat/Secret Clothes/Sprint Shoes), or 221 if this skill is made unmodifiable by AUP (Thief with Equip Heavy Blade, Chaos Blade/Thief Hat/Secret Clothes/Sprint Shoes). Strong, but if you have it keep the 10 MP cost and maybe even reduce its range to 5, then to use it over the course of the match, the unit would have to sacrifice Speed for MP, which also lowers its damage output.

SP*WP seems reasonable to me - we already have a skill with that formula (Hawk's Eye), and no one's had complaints about that.

[Reks]

With SP*WP, the upper limit would be (I think) 238 with AUP (Thief with AUP, Tactician's Blade/Thief Hat/Secret Clothes/Sprint Shoes), or 221 if this skill is made unmodifiable by AUP (Thief with Equip Heavy Blade, Chaos Blade/Thief Hat/Secret Clothes/Sprint Shoes). Strong, but if you have it keep the 10 MP cost and maybe even reduce its range to 5, then to use it over the course of the match, the unit would have to sacrifice Speed for MP, which also lowers its damage output.

SP*WP seems reasonable to me - we already have a skill with that formula (Hawk's Eye), and no one's had complaints about that.

Except Hawk's Eye is limited to the weapon's reach, and Shuriken has a reach of 5.

It's understandable if Shuriken loses it's 4-hit capabilities and I could get behind the formula being SP*WP, definitely

I'm just not sure if that was still the intention or not, because it seemed kinda powerful if it'll keep the multi-hitting capability.



And I hate to bump up my own suggestion, but nobody said anything about it. What do people think about some Katanas earning their respective Draw Out abilities as a proc?

[dw6561]

Except Hawk's Eye is limited to the weapon's reach, and Shuriken has a reach of 5.

It's understandable if Shuriken loses it's 4-hit capabilities and I could get behind the formula being SP*WP, definitely

I'm just not sure if that was still the intention or not, because it seemed kinda powerful if it'll keep the multi-hitting capability.



And I hate to bump up my own suggestion, but nobody said anything about it. What do people think about some Katanas earning their respective Draw Out abilities as a proc?

Good point about shuriken, that's why I suggested it should go down in range a little, or if we do what Barren suggested and make it not go through obstacles. And it will probably have to loose the multi hits if we use SP*WP, which I would be fine with as well.

And I think katanas could really be good with their respective draw out procs. If we do that, katanas may not even need a WP boost. The only problem I see is if we were to have masamune proc itself which would be really funny but would be impractical. Murasame might also be iffy due to it already healing HP on hit as well. But yeah, the offensive katanas would definitely be good with this.

[Kurosabes]

The thing that bothers me with katanas is that Paladins have no reason to use them. Cross users would not benefit from DO procs, not to mention having low MA if they opt for regular attacks instead. It's not a bad idea for the Samurai itself, some katanas could use it and I wouldn't mind the change. If anything could benefit Paladins, maybe the elemental katanas could absorb their own element? Or we could bring something new to the table and have a HP or MP boosting katana for tanks or an alternative to Cross Helmet. I'd say Bizen Boat gets MP boost and Muramasa gets +HP.

[gatebuster202]

If we are talking Katana changes, are we also talking about Draw Out alterations? Murasama needs to lose a point or two on it's multiplier. (Reasoning): It is an instant, 2x3 heal at most of Cure 2-3's rate. That's the best bang for your buck on pure healing. It lacks a MP cost and it's only balancing factor was breaking. (Which was never really a balancing issue.) It doesn't smart target, but it does aid against undead, so no changes there. Also it'd be nice if we change the formula to (MA+PA/2) * 9 or 10. Again giving utility to the build. (This may not be so realistic)

Asura should probably see a single point increase. (10) That formula is the only PA one, and gives more utility to the PA based classes who would benefit from the Draw Out Skill set.

[Barren]

Regardless of what changes are actually made, it will definitely be different. I'm sure that Gaignun will update the team design tool. The mem card generator hopefully can be updated too

[CT5Holy]

Just had this idea for Bizen Boat - what if it did a flat 80-100 MP damage?

[dw6561]

I do agree that bizen boat needs a nerf, but maybe not that much. I was thinking more along the lines of an AOE modification.

[Mudvayne]

I think a flat 100 mp damage is fair, maybe even slightly strong. 75 seems a better number but may not be effective enough to really be relevant, it's a tough call. I agree something needs to happen though, as is it's entirely too strong and completely shuts down mages.

[Barren]

How about we lower the bizen boat formula to MA*7?

It would be on the same par as an attack up asura or magic attack up koutetsu. Just doesn't get the elemental boost

[Reks]

If Bizen Boat does flat damage, that'd fix the Mage Masher besides maybe giving it a higher proc chance.

The problem with weakening the formula is that it makes it impactful only on a dedicated MA build.

Lowering the AoE is nice, but it'd still be very powerful. 150+ is still terrifying to be hit with since that's the margin of MP most units are going to be around unless they're a Summoner or have a high MP robe.



I recommend going with flat damage, because it wouldn't be enough to cripple a dedicated mage (which is fair), but would be enough to cripple another job with lower MP, like Squires or White Magic Paladins, or what have you.

It'd also make 'mage assassins' with dual-wielding Mage Mashers more appealing, and could potentially serve the same purpose as the old Bizen Boat (removal of all MP) on top of damage.

[Barren]

Another thought that occurred to me. If people are still iffy on shuriken being WP*SP then why not try SP*10

It was Yagyu Darkness' WP from vanilla and I think it can work here. Feel free to agree or disagree

[Gaignun]

Will the AI even use Bizen Boat if it cannot prevent the spell from being cast?  If so, Bizen Boat will never be used until (target current MP - spell MP + 1) drops to the MP damage.

[Barren]

Will the AI even use Bizen Boat if it cannot prevent the spell from being cast?  If so, Bizen Boat will never be used until (target current MP - spell MP + 1) drops to the MP damage.

You should have began that sentence with "Riddle me this"

That would have been fitting. But yes my point exactly. If we did the flat damage then the AI wouldn't use bizen boat if it won't be enough to cancel the spell. The only way that would ever happen is if the AI is out of range to attack (which is another form of disruption in a sense)

[Kurosabes]

I think that burning a target's MP is fine, a team that relies on MP should have means of restoring MP anyway. However I would agree it should just be slightly less AoE. It has the potential of dropping an entire opponent's team's MP from full to zero in a single attack. By removing 1 AoE and giving it 1 Range like Koutetsu/Masamune, something like this becomes much less likely to happen and it retains its purpose, dropping a target's MP to zero.

On the other hand, Spell Absorb needs a buff. The way it works currently, it can't even take out a Thief or Paladin's MP. It's completely useless against low MP teams. If I'd give flat MP damage to any ability, it would be this one.

It's already been said before, but remove Poison from Kagesougi since it's already on Shuriken. I am ok with Shuriken's SP*10 proposal. SP*PA would be fine as well. Anything with WP doesn't really make sense, it doesn't use the caster's weapon.

[Shintroy]

Is there a list of reaction abilities that you can't activate by friendly fire? Maybe it's just me, but I couldn't get chrono trigger or dragon spirit to activate through a friendly fire earth dragon like you can with other reactions like PA Save, MA Save,  and even Counter Flood which doesn't activates, but can't target friendly units.

[Barren]

Chrono Trigger you need to be hit in order for it to work. I guess you're just unlucky. If you want friendly fire to trigger reaction abilities, try low damaging lores. A unit with quickening and chrono trigger is awesome.