Final Fantasy Hacktics

There are currently 0 open and unused ability slots.  Woo-hoo!    Looking for suggestions for the already existing generic classes, monster abilities, boss-only abilities, or abilities for special characters -- please use this topic to do so and to critique stuff already on the table.

New stuff, to date:

- Blue Mage is born!  Nuked the Calculator because Math Skill is OP.  Input welcome.


Blue Mage is unlocked from job levels in both Squire and Wizard.  It has below average HP, above average MP, average Sp, and above average PA and MA.

- Archers gain a new skillset, since charge sucked.



- Bard and Dancer consolidated into a single class (Performer), which then opens up space for a new female-only job class, the Berserker.


- Time/Summon/Black/White/Yin-Yang magic all gain a 0 CTR, single-target ability for use when the AT is not in their favor.

- All generic classes gain a "starter" skill or two, a 0 JP ability to freely purchase and use as soon as the class becomes available.  

- Squires lose Dash.  Squires gained several new weapon abilities:
-- blind blow is an attack with 100% darkness infliction
-- Pierce (sword only) a double-panel weapon strike.
-- Acupuncture (xbow only) a healing weapon strike
-- Flailing Flail (flail only) a weapon strike with a 25% chance to trigger another weapon strike
-- Cleave (axe only) an attack that deals 75% damage to the target
-- Throat Slit (dagger only) inflicts Death, although unlikely

- Knights take in the Ruin abilites from 1.3, which gives them means of ranged action.  Also gain two new abilities; Shatter will cancel a target's defending/protect/shell and deal 33% damage, while Champion is an HP-absorbing attack that requires a knight sword to utilize.

- Summon Magic and Draw Out AoE reformed to cope with the reduced range/movement, hosting 3-way attacks and linear attacks in additional to traditional AoE.

- Black magic reformed.  Fire magic now has the highest damage but also the highest MP cost and charge time.  Lightning is medium damage with moderate CTR, but also has infinite vert tol.  Ice Magic is the fastest but least powerful.

- Item skillset reformed. Auto-potion effect capped at 100 HP. Single-status removal items gone. All status removing is now in either Remedy or Holy Water. When either Remedy or Holy Water is successful, the target is now also healed for anywhere from 1 to 150 HP. New potion class heals for 200 HP (auto-potion immune). New Ether class grants 80 MP. Gained three new skills which can be used offensively or defensively, whichever tickles your fancy:

Dual Kiss - Grants both Haste and Poison to the target
Turtle Shell - Grants both Slow and Protect to the target
Shade of Grey - Grants either Faith or Innocent to the target

- Steal Gil, Steal Exp removed from the game. Thief gains two new skills; Steal Sanity, inflicts the confusion status to the target, with the same chance to work as Steal Heart -- only this one ignores gender -- and Last Laugh, a move usable only while critical that inflicts blind, poison, and silence onto their target.  

- Negotiate and Death Sentence Talk Skills removed from the game. Talk skill given the 4 moves from 1.3 -- warn (inflicts defend), threaten (inflicts Don't Act), Preach (inflicts reraise), and Refute (cancels most status effectis) along with the 4 original Br/Fa modifiers, who now modify in increments of 10 in either direction.

- Elemental diversified slightly -- some panels effects are now either Pure PA or MA-based damage, and a few retain the older composite formula.  This will keep elemental viable through endgame and help reinforce where people place their geomancer.

- Counter Condemn, new monk skill, counter attacks with a chance to inflict death sentence on the target. Counter Tackle removed.

Removed from player pool



New job tree.  6 classes are initially available, and the most advanced jobs are now more accessible than before!



New status durations -- with speed growth curbed off, status numbers readjusted.



Update:  Or, instead of talking differences, here's a complete run down of the generics:

Squire:


Chemist


Knight


Archer


Priest


Wizard


Monk - notably lose innate Martial Arts


Lancer


Thief


Blue Mage - Damage Split and Def Up notably increased in JP because what else are you gonna spend JP on?


Oracle


Mediator


Geomancer:


Samurai:


Ninja - has pathetic PA, but innate Two Swords


Berserker - Female Only


Performer - Male only.  All song/dance are self-AoE of 6 atm instead of fullmap.  Lost Last Dance because CT00 are the evil.


Time Mage


Summoner


Mime - Innate Concentrate, Monster Talk, Counter, Double Magic

You already know Cripple needs to go.

So far, I don't like the Knight's Cleave skill.  Not only does it not jive with everything else in the skillset (the rest debilitates, this does high end damage), but the graphic makes it feel like a Swordskill outright and the hit percent is so shaky from what I've seen so far even in Chapter 1 that against non-bosses I question why I would even want to use it over just attacking normally, as the average hit rate seem to be 50% just trying to bat through Escutcheons and Knights generally hit hard enough to knock more than that off in two turns anyway (the average for Cleave to hit).   Not sure what exact abilit(y/ies) they should be given, but Cleave seems both out of flavor and easily outdated against all but the hardiest units.

Camouflage seems the same, and it's also misspelled.  :p  100% self-Transparent is cool for a while, but as an ability I'm not sure it holds it own through to the end game like others do.  Once you get Concentrate, you're probably just going to be sporting that most of the time, especially on an Archer/Hunter primary job.

Execute, Poison Volley have tested very well so far, though, as has Salve.  Not tested Aim and Impact yet, but they look the same as a pair of Hunter abilities that Eternal uses in his patch, so they're both useful enough.  Haven't touched Blue Magics yet, so I can't comment there.  


Monsters - Looking in FFTPatcher to confirm some of their abilities, I noticed you altered Skeletons to only have Short Charge (insert sad face), and you forgot to give the Minitaurus a Reaction besides Caution.  I checked since I was going to recommend actually giving all of the Bull classes Meatbone Slash as a reaction, due to their high HP and Caution coming together to give them some noteworthy survivability (and as such, make Meatbone Slash good).  The Juravis classes of monsters need something over Arrow Guard - Arrow Guard is a nice thought, but it's ultimately going to be a "meh" Reaction for a monster especially.  Sunken State, or even going out of our way to be cool and give them a normally inaccessible Reaction like Hamedo or MP Switch could be cool.  Most of the other monsters seem alright for now, though.  Though, is there a reason for Squids to specifically have Magic Attack UP innate instead of just having their multiplier increased by 33% or something?  Seems like a wasted innate since its effect can be replicated easily.

Also, the Apanda / both forms of Demons / Serpentarius all don't have any Reactions at all, from what I can see.  I know you're not doing Deep Dungeon until later, but fixing the Demons and Apandas to have some kind of Reactions / loaded innates seems like it'd be a good idea to do about now.  

Aside - It's too bad the Reflect Reaction and that blank slot don't have any way of being used right now.  Kind of makes me want to find a way to get them to do something myself.  Damn my inability to do ASM currently, since I've already a hypothesis on a way to maybe make the Reflect Reaction work.



I'll brainstorm some more abilities right now, but this was some quick feedback I figured I should post whilst I was thinking of it.

I've been playing with your archer set and I believe I've discovered what looks like an unsolvable problem.  Cripple causes the AI to move at a snails pace.  It's weird.  While an enemy or friendly unit is charging, the AI just sits there for about a minute to think about its turn.

How about Oil Volley for Archer then Fire Arrow? I don't think you have a skill that inflicts Oil yet, do you? Also, I think Cleave should be a 3 ranged that deals 25% damage or 33% damage if that's good, fitting in with the rest of the Ruin skills.

Quote from: "Dokurider"How about Oil Volley for Archer then Fire Arrow? I don't think you have a skill that inflicts Oil yet, do you?

I agree with this.  An ability that's something like AoE light damage + Oil would be cool.  I think just straight Oil infliction would be too weak, but a light bit of peppering damage tied on would make it pretty cool.

I kind of want to say "Poison Volley" should be renamed something more like "Poison Bomb", though.  It's not a volley if a Knight can use it at range since a volley implies a bunch of rounds being fired from a Bow/Crossbow, and it uses a punching animation anyway (IIRC) so it looks like something's being thrown if anything.

I support both the name change for Poison Volley and there being an Oil-inducing attack in Archer's repertoire, especially since it's losing status inducing since Cripple doesn't work (and Camoflague [sic] will probably ultimately end up disappearing).

I also would support getting rid of Cleave, but I promised (myself) that I would at least try it out (or get it with hit by the computer) a few times before I said anything.

Therefore, the only other thing I have to say that it would probably good to add the job tree (and maybe that loose stat guide) to the beginning post of this thread as well since currently it is only in the beginning of the very general thread where people might not think to look.

Quote from: "The Damned"(and Camoflague [sic] will probably ultimately end up disappearing).

It depends.  Camouflage could just be edited to do something in addition to Transparent.  Doing something as simple as making it heal enough HP to barely bring a unit out of Critical (probably MP costing it in the process) would give it some more long term use in addition to causing the AI to actually use it, but from what R999's told me, the AI becomes extra aggressive under Transparent and I can't prove/refute that claim right now because of how rare it is to actually see Transparent AI units that can do anything but be balls-on-walls aggressive.

Quote from: "The Damned"Therefore, the only other thing I have to say that it would probably good to add the job tree (and maybe that loose stat guide) to the beginning post of this thread as well since currently it is only in the beginning of the very general thread where people might not think to look.

^Do this, please.   It'd make life easier if those things were posted in more places.

The AI becomes extra aggressive under transparent and the AI will spam it regardless because the AI is originally coded to think transparent = will not be attacked and will grant 100% non-evaded physical attacks.  The AI gives adding it the same priority as adding haste.

Quote from: "formerdeathcorps"The AI becomes extra aggressive under transparent and the AI will spam it regardless because the AI is originally coded to think transparent = will not be attacked and will grant 100% non-evaded physical attacks.  The AI gives adding it the same priority as adding haste.

I've yet to see them use it, at all.  Not even once.

It's free, and I've even picked it up from one of their crystals on a character I forgot to go through and learn all the 0 JP abilities for, so they know it.

If they really give it the same priority as Haste, I'd think I'd have seen them cast it once by now.  I guess I'll get to see/not see it when I hit Lenalia Plateau tomorrow, as there will likely be Archers I won't be able to reach for a while there, giving them ample time to do whatever the fuck they want.  Then again, Dorter Trade City already had those...

Hmm...that's strange.  I gave them transparent + reflect off carbunkle and they always do it first turn if they can't deal damage.  As anyone with a time mage knows, reflect's priority is definitely lower than haste's, but a Su/TM will alternate between haste and carbunkle as their first spells.  Maybe he flagged something different?

That or it's possible that Haste can't stack with Transparent (which it never should have been able to in the first place). I've just seen the computer Yelling at itself a lot first turn so far.

*shrug*

But, yeah, I think Camoflague [sic] should go ultimately because it screws up the AI (though I too have yet to see them use it; however, the farther I've played so far with my limited time between everything else is Mandalia and there's only been four Archers, three of whom died rather quickly) and is yet another unnecessary advantage for the player.

Quick note:  All skills in the Blue Magic set should be flagged for Counter Magic, imo.

I'm pretty sure a number of them currently aren't, considering I've never been Counter Magic'd by this Ahriman in Sweegy Woods yet.

EDIT: looking over some stuff, and Pierce (new Squire skill) says it has a 20 MP Cost in its description, but it costs nothing and is instant when in game.  Considering the AI likes to spam it in its current form even if only hitting one target and using a fucking Longbow, I think giving it that MP Cost might be wise.

EDIT 2: When using Pierce, you get one of those weird floating Mythril Dagger things around your character because I think the animation isn't supposed to be used with human characters.  At least, that's the animation I got when Long Bow Algus charged the front line and spammed it to hell.

Quote from: "The Damned"That or it's possible that Haste can't stack with Transparent (which it never should have been able to in the first place). I've just seen the computer Yelling at itself a lot first turn so far.

I doubt that.  The only one I've seen like that was frog with don't act/don't move/stop, but I'm not sure why.

Quote from: "The Damned"But, yeah, I think Camoflague [sic] should go ultimately because it screws up the AI (though I too have yet to see them use it; however, the farther I've played so far with my limited time between everything else is Mandalia and there's only been four Archers, three of whom died rather quickly) and is yet another unnecessary advantage for the player.

Are you referring to my recent research on the matter?  I actually messed up; Razele's hack does work fine; what doesn't work was my attempts to change some of the other triggers.  See my latest post: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=4923 (http://www.ffhacktics.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=4923).

Quote from: "formerdeathcorps"Are you referring to my recent research on the matter?  I actually messed up; Razele's hack does work fine; what doesn't work was my attempts to change some of the other triggers.  See my latest post: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=4923 (http://www.ffhacktics.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=4923).

Aye.

Now that you are here, I must ask (partially because ASM'd intends to use it as well): Have you gotten Float to take extra damage against Wind?

Regardless, even if it "works" against the computer without being unfair now, I haven't seen the computer use Camouflage at all. Is the learn rate 0% philsov? Or is the computer not flagged to learn it at all?

No, that hack doesn't work with float, just oil.  In my opinion, it should be something like undead = weak vs. holy anyways.

Quote from: "The Damned"Regardless, even if it "works" against the computer without being unfair now, I haven't seen the computer use Camouflage at all. Is the learn rate 0% philsov? Or is the computer not flagged to learn it at all?

Just checked, Camouflage is indeed rigged for a 0% learn rate, heh.  

I'm guessing the AI was spamming it?  Otherwise I can't think of why he'd do that.

Also, the other 0JP Archer Move is only set to 80%... it seems odd that moves that cost 0 JP aren't flagged for a 100% Learn Rate when they probably should be.

R999 just figured out why philsov probably did that.  The problem with Razele's hack was that changing 40 to 00 caused the AI to set its own units to run like a rabbit if they had transparent, which meant that they would only attack when an enemy was in range.

Yeah, that's what I suspected and why I currently don't have any Transparent abilities in my patch (sans Sunken State, which, I'm still uncertain about). That's what I had meant when it came to "messing with the AI".

It's unfortunate, but I've had to do the same with Death Sentence as well.

So I'm kind of looking forward to how (Counter) Condemn works out in this patch.

I haven't gotten to test it out yet, but I'm thinking that the new Wizard spell Shatter would be better suited for Knights than Cleave, since it flows well with their whole idea of debuffing and with a high hit rate / unevadable it can actually be justified over a standard attack.  I'm thinking a single-target ability that hits for light damage and removes Protect/Shell 100% would be perfect for Knight, alongside another couple moves that help it fit in either a tanking or debuffing role.  Part of me is tempted to be quite liberal here, because anything that might be too good as a secondary skill can likely be Sword flagged to force Equip Sword or limit where it can be used.  Maybe give them a move that (randomly?) gives them self-only Protect, Shell, and/or Regen (added separately if random) or something that has a high enough MP cost to stop it from being spammed early game, and promotes Knights in Robes.

No clue what to do to give back to Wizard, though.  Wizard is generally just elemental damage / non-elemental damage / frog status, so its hard to give them something they'll actually USE and have it stay in flavor.  Is it possible to give them an inverse-Death move that demolishes all of a target's MP and has roughly the same hit rate?  Not only would that be cool, but it'd give Wizards a ridiculous way to refill their own MP while Undead if it also has Undead Reverse.

As for Archer...

Camouflage (Altered.  I'd say allow it to heal enough HP to remove a unit from Critical, but not enough to make it equal or superior to other healing skills.)
Execute (Can it be altered to 100% Add: Dead to Critical Unit?)
Aim (My only worry here is that pure SP*WP damage doesn't scale anywhere near how it does vs PA*WP damage, but 100% hitting is a far better thing in ASM'd, so...)
Poison Bomb (Renamed Poison Volley)
Oil Flashbang (Oil + light damage)
Flame Strike (Fire Elemental weapon damage)
Impact (Stays same.)
Focus Blow (CT, weapon range attack that deals a noticeable amount of extra damage to the enemy.  Similar to a charge skill that doesn't work with Guns.)
Impede (Light damage + Slow, moderate MP cost to compensate)
Salve (Stays same.)

?

Charge actually works with Guns, apparently. At least in 1.3. I'm not sure why....

Anyway, I keep forgetting to ask this and I figure I would ask this in between working on things: So, due to the fact that the Float half of Razele's "Oil weak to Fire and Float weak to Wind" doesn't work, are you going to try to fix it philsov? Or you just not going to bother?

I'm asking this partially because of the "solution" that was made to differentiation Tornado from Melt and Quake involving Float status.

Quote from: "The Damned"Charge actually works with Guns, apparently. At least in 1.3. I'm not sure why....

That's because Charge increases one of the values in the damage formula (Once instance of PA for PA formulas, once instance of MA for MA formulas, one instance of WP for Gun formulas) by a K value equal to the +X that appears in the Charge skill.  So, if you were to Charge +20 a 6 WP gun, the damage formula is (6+20)*6 or 26*6, both of which come out to quite a bit of damage.

I noted it as "a Charge formula that DOESN'T work on Guns" because he'd likely have to use the Swordskill formula to make it work, which is always PA*WP, and use the Y (IIRC) value to increase the PA number by whatever he wants the attack to boost by, making it useless with Guns and subpar with Poles, though potentially *better* on anything using the ((PA+SP)/2) * WP formula (aka, Ninja Swords, Daggers, Vanilla/1.3 Bows and Crossbows, though I think Philsov changed the Crossbow/Bow formula in ASM'd).

I meant, I'm not "sure why" from a rational perspective, not that I'm not sure of the formula. (Although, for some reason, I don't remember Charge working with Guns in vanilla, but that's probably I never really used Guns in vanilla.)

Sorry for the vagueness.

Also, I had thought you meant that Guns wouldn't work with the Charge formula at all, not that they would just be sub-par (which they should be).

Quote from: "The Damned"Sorry for the vagueness.

Also, I had thought you meant that Guns wouldn't work with the Charge formula at all, not that they would just be sub-par (which they should be).

Guns work with the Vanilla Charge Formula just as well as all other weapons do, honestly.  It's just their lower WP causes the ending damage to generally be lower, which is no different from any low WP weapon really.  Trying to make a "fake" Charge formula usually results in them being excluded entirely or being affected differently from how vanilla Charge affects them, which is what I was saying.  Then again, if Formula 2D is used as a "fake" Charge formula, it would override the Gun's damage formula and make it (PA+X)*WP in accordance with said 2D formula, wouldn't it?  Nifty.

Anywho, made minor edit to proposed abilities I made before because Impede was too weak.

Do you think that Drain Touch and Cat Kick would be good additions to Blue Mage?

QuoteNow that you are here, I must ask (partially because ASM'd intends to use it as well): Have you gotten Float to take extra damage against Wind?

Honestly all I cared about was oil working properly -- float was just something that came with the package.  If float still acts normal, it's a little more desired, really, as it keeps float as a friendly buff instead of mixed bag possible debuff thing.

Quotethough I think Philsov changed the Crossbow/Bow formula in ASM'd

Nope.  Xbows are still PA*WP and longbows are [(PA + Sp)/2] * WP.  However, since speed isn't scaling nearly as much as normal, and while the WP on longbows and ninja swords have increased, what Heavy Shot does enable is a single, stronger blow with a charge time -- which functions very much in practice to an old Charge ability.  I may run into a hiccup with the new WPs where using the attack command is too weak but I can't boost WP because then Heavy Blow enters the picture and screws everything up, but I'll need to gain some levels and play through a bit before taking any major action.

QuoteShatter would be better suited for Knights than Cleave, since it flows well with their whole idea of debuffing

Possibly.  Looks like Squire can adopt Cleave, anyways.

As for what we can throw at the wizard... perhaps an "expire" type ability?  Deals 100% HP damage to a unit with death sentence?  

QuoteCamouflage (Altered. I'd say allow it to heal enough HP to remove a unit from Critical, but not enough to make it equal or superior to other healing skills.)

No, self transparent for a 100% shot next round is cool >_>

QuoteExecute (Can it be altered to 100% Add: Dead to Critical Unit?)

Nope.  The status checker formulas (Raise, Death, Revive) all deal/heal % health, not add status.  I'm open to be proven wrong, however.

QuoteAim (My only worry here is that pure SP*WP damage doesn't scale anywhere near how it does vs PA*WP damage, but 100% hitting is a far better thing in ASM'd, so...)

Thats the exact point.  Less damage but 100%.

QuotePoison Bomb (Renamed Poison Volley)

Should spare me some animation woes.

QuoteOil Flashbang (Oil + light damage)
Flame Strike (Fire Elemental weapon damage)
Focus Blow (CT, weapon range attack that deals a noticeable amount of extra damage to the enemy. Similar to a charge skill that doesn't work with Guns.)
Impede (Light damage + Slow, moderate MP cost to compensate)

the problem with "light damage" is there aren't any formulas that allow for weapon scaling.... I can either do PA*WP, SP*WP (no status with this one, btw), PA*Y or MA*Y.  See above with heavy blow and damage scaling; it is almost literally Crush Punch already -- I don't want to make Heavier Blow.

QuoteDo you think that Drain Touch and Cat Kick would be good additions to Blue Mage?

They're already getting drain touch , but cat kick (vanilla version) scales horribly and cat kick (1.3) I feel impedes the new Oracle ability Quell -- which is the same thing, minus damage but at least at range.  I am however considering Aqua Soul...

I like Aqua Soul and Bad Breath for the Blue Mage.  Bad Breath is one of the most iconic blue mage spells.

no way are humans getting access to bad breath.

Quote from: "philsov"no way are humans getting access to bad breath.

I lol'ed

Quote from: "philsov"As for what we can throw at the wizard... perhaps an "expire" type ability?  Deals 100% HP damage to a unit with death sentence?

That could be very nice.  

Quote from: "philsov"No, self transparent for a 100% shot next round is cool >_>

It is, I just don't see it scaling to end game as well as other abilities.

Quote from: "philsov"Nope.  The status checker formulas (Raise, Death, Revive) all deal/heal % health, not add status.  I'm open to be proven wrong, however.

Ouch.

Quote from: "philsov"the problem with "light damage" is there aren't any formulas that allow for weapon scaling.... I can either do PA*WP, SP*WP (no status with this one, btw), PA*Y or MA*Y.  See above with heavy blow and damage scaling; it is almost literally Crush Punch already -- I don't want to make Heavier Blow.

I don't think the weapon scaling means much for those moves I said "light damage" for besides Impede - and honestly I think that move not involving WP probably is for the better.

Also, where is this "Heavy Blow" you speak of?  You make me feel like I put my back to a Goblin and somehow got my eyes gouged out from the back of my head.  D:

Quote from: "philsov"They're already getting drain touch :D

...Damn this background not allowing me to inb4 with invisitext.

Quote from: "Jack of All Trades"I like Aqua Soul and Bad Breath for the Blue Mage. Bad Breath is one of the most iconic blue mage spells.

Bad Breath is sobroken though.  Anyone who watched my Beastmaster stream of Chapter 2 in 1.3 can tell you I pretty much just screamed "BLARGH" and left a nice forest of statues and frogs all the way to Queklain without a single hiccup once I figured out how good BLARGHing at things was.

Though this does raise another important question...

Quote from: "philsov"no way are humans getting access to bad breath.

They had mints in Ivalice, then?

Self-Destruct is also an iconic Blue Mage ability, but there's no way in Hell any sensible person that makes a Blue Mage is letting them get that (unless reviving them is made EXTREMELY difficult or something, and even then...).

Hell, at least Bad Breath can be weakened...by toothpaste.

*is bricked*

Quote from: "philsov"As for what we can throw at the wizard... perhaps an "expire" type ability?  Deals 100% HP damage to a unit with death sentence?

Sounds more like a Time Mage ability, really.

(One that I may end up borrowing since Death Sentence...kind of sucks.)

Quote from: "The Damned"Self-Destruct is also an iconic Blue Mage ability, but there's no way in Hell any sensible person that makes a Blue Mage is letting them get that (unless reviving them is made EXTREMELY difficult or something, and even then...).

Hell, at least Bad Breath can be weakened...by toothpaste.

*is bricked*

Quote from: "philsov"As for what we can throw at the wizard... perhaps an "expire" type ability?  Deals 100% HP damage to a unit with death sentence?

Sounds more like a Time Mage ability, really.

(One that I may end up borrowing since Death Sentence...kind of sucks.)

I really like this idea, makes DS far more worthwhile.  While it does sound like a Time Mage ability, it doesn't really work on the Time Mage unless either they have a way to inflict DS or more jobs have a way to inflict DS.

It reminds me of a faustian bargain?  Which gives me another idea for a power.  How about something that gives you Haste, Shell, Protect, and Regen, and Death Sentence?  Its three rounds of Booyah, before an untimely death, which also cancels all of the above effects.  Does Re Raise stack with or Cancel Death Sentence, because, if so, this power is screwed.

reraise cancels DS, sadly.  

I had thought of a few abilities like that, but I'm concerned about simply wearing status ignoring gear and just ramping up on the self buffs (like self protect/shell/slow, with cancel:slow gear)

Quoteor more jobs have a way to inflict DS.

Currently we've got monks for Condemn (secret fist) and counter condemn, but I guess we can give that to wizard?  Rocking both Death and Death Sentence seems like a complete package, albeit a kind of boring one.

It could serve more of a purpose, now, though considering that Death Sentence would Ignore Dead with that new ASM, so Wizards could still cast Doom (though, again, that seems more like a Time Mage ability) to get past things like Judo Outfit. And of course it would probably best to test if the AI could use Expire properly since it tends to ignore Death Sentence'd people, though that status discovery formerdeathcrops found may solve that problem....

Although, having Death, Doom AND Expire is a bit redundant, but, hey, it's up to you.

*ponders Expire some more*

If there's space, Oracle could be given a Doom-like spell even, since they mostly have Status anyway.   Heh, packaging Death Sentence onto their Sleep spell could be rather hilarious.

Also, in this vein, I'd like to propose replacing the Warn Talk Skill with Death Sentence (possibly the Ahriman's Death Sentence for lolz, heh).  Warn is useless, it doesn't even hit 100% of the time and a Defend that doesn't come from an Item is usually very sub-par.  Most of the time, all I see this Talk Skill do is cause the computer to waste CT and have yet to see a use for it on my own end.  This would not only make for a generally better Talk Skill, but make Expire more useful for Wizard.

I can't think of too many other classes that could take on a Death Sentence-inflicting move though.  Archer, maybe?  If the AI has issues using the moves, we can always flag the ones that cause problems to be unusable by the AI, remember, though I think the AI would realize it can auto-kill with Expire and do it.  I'd assume the Wizard's Doom spell would be 100% if it gained one, though.

As for Reraise vs Death Sentence, you could always change their flags so that Death Sentence cancels Reraise but Reraise doesn't cancel Death Sentence if you want to mess with that kind of thing.  An ability that bestows Protect, Shell, Regen, Death Sentence wouldn't be a problem, I don't think.  I'm not as sure on giving it Haste as well because of how the AI loves spamming said Haste and would ignore the fact said ability ever bestows Death Sentence and probably kill themselves.



EDIT:  Damn, I thought there was a yellow palette of the Dragon class monster lying around somewhere.  I was going to say to switch it with the green one used with the current Tier 1 Dragon, and make each Dragon have an affinity to proper Lightning/Ice/Fire, with Absorb/Strengthen/Weak properties to match.  :[

Quote from: "RavenOfRazgriz"If there's space, Oracle could be given a Doom-like spell even, since they mostly have Status anyway.   Heh, packaging Death Sentence onto their Sleep spell could be rather hilarious.

I thought CT doesn't count when the target is affected by Sleep.

QuoteI can't think of too many other classes that could take on a Death Sentence-inflicting move though.  Archer, maybe?  If the AI has issues using the moves, we can always flag the ones that cause problems to be unusable by the AI, remember, though I think the AI would realize it can auto-kill with Expire and do it.  I'd assume the Wizard's Doom spell would be 100% if it gained one, though.

Death Sentence on Archer seems like it might be a good idea or, rather, make Death Sentence usable for once. I've Death Sentence on my Archer...just not by itself.

It would definitely be a better move than just straight translating FFTA's "Doom Archer" (or Doom Arrow...or whatever), which was basically just Shock with even more range since FFTA is genius about things like that.

QuoteEDIT:  Damn, I thought there was a yellow palette of the Dragon class monster lying around somewhere.  I was going to say to switch it with the green one used with the current Tier 1 Dragon, and make each Dragon have an affinity to proper Lightning/Ice/Fire, with Absorb/Strengthen/Weak properties to match.  :[

There isn't?

Damn, this kind of screws up my DD plans....

There is a yellow palette dragon, just not a portrait for it.  I'm currently using that in my patch.

Quote from: "The Damned"I thought CT doesn't count when the target is affected by Sleep.

It doesn't.  The idea was that by bundling Sleep + Death Sentence, the unit becomes an ample target for an Expire and the AI won't end up ignoring it while it ravages their team.  It also leaves a player wondering if they should wake the unit up with an attack or leave it asleep until they can heal Death Sentence (assuming they have a way to do so).

That, and bundling it with Don't Act would be incredibly, incredibly cruel and unusual.

Quote from: "The Damned"Death Sentence on Archer seems like it might be a good idea or, rather, make Death Sentence usable for once. I've Death Sentence on my Archer...just not by itself.

Not by itself, you say?

Quote from: "The Damned"It would definitely be a better move than just straight translating FFTA's "Doom Archer" (or Doom Arrow...or whatever), which was basically just Shock with even more range since FFTA is genius about things like that.

Ah, FFTA.  I don't even own you and yet I find more and more reasons to never bother looking for you to begin with.

Quote from: "The Damned"There isn't?

Damn, this kind of screws up my DD plans....

Apparently I was wrong.

Quote from: "formerdeathcorps"There is a yellow palette dragon, just not a portrait for it. I'm currently using that in my patch.

Houston, we need a portrait!  D:

Where are the palettes for Dragons anyway? I need to see something....

Quote from: "RavenOfRazgriz"It doesn't.  The idea was that by bundling Sleep + Death Sentence, the unit becomes an ample target for an Expire and the AI won't end up ignoring it while it ravages their team.  It also leaves a player wondering if they should wake the unit up with an attack or leave it asleep until they can heal Death Sentence (assuming they have a way to do so).

Ah, I see. That would make sense.

QuoteThat, and bundling it with Don't Act would be incredibly, incredibly cruel and unusual.

Yes it would. You will like Templar then, but enough blatant advertising.

Quote from: "The Damned"Not by itself, you say?

Nothing special. Just Poison and Death Sentence as Aim Vitals on Archer.

All Poison and Death Sentence is what has replaced just All Death Sentence as Inflict Status 0B on the few things that have kept Death Sentence at all--the only other thing that still has Death Sentence is Assassin Dagger since both Mediator's Death Sentence and Ahriman's Death Sentence got nuked and re-used.

Quote from: "The Damned"Nothing special. Just Poison and Death Sentence as Aim Vitals on Archer.

All Poison and Death Sentence is what has replaced just All Death Sentence as Inflict Status 0B on the few things that have kept Death Sentence at all--the only other thing that still has Death Sentence is Assassin Dagger since both Mediator's Death Sentence and Ahriman's Death Sentence got nuked and re-used.

I see.

Odd combination there, adding a move that slowly makes a unit die to one that slowly makes a unit die, especially with the AI dickery and such.  What made you do that?

I figured that if the unit is going to get ignored, then at least it will take some damage and almost inevitably die. For the record, I'm using the ASM that causes Poison to do 1/4 of CurHP as damage, so there's still some things I need to test out obviously.

Even if it doesn't kill them, once they get into critical, units that can't heal themselves usually flee and are thus useless since nothing (that regular PC characters will have a hold of) will be able to reach all the way across the battlefield, especially with Guns pretty much gone.

In that instance, it's actually better than them dying since like 8 of my classes have some type of revival skill.

(Although my latest test revealed to me that apparently the percentage skills CAN revive for 0 HP...meaning the unit just dies again at the end of its turn. Lol.)

Lol, reviving for 0 HP.

I believe Call of Power utilizes that for something during a story battle, actually.  It could be used to make "Zombie" units, even... heh...

mmmk.

Oracles gain a death sentence ability, Time Mages gain an Expire type ability, Knights get Shatter, and Squires get Cleave.

That said, Wizards are gaining the Virus ability, which is elemental-2 damage with a chance to poison the target.  

Archers lost the Cripple ability, and gained the Oil Bomb ability, which is ~60+Sp of inflicting Oil onto a single target.  (Multi-target oil is op, imo, and its either damage + 25% with AoE or single target status infliction at >25%).
Archers also gain the fire strike ability, which is an SP*WP fire elemental shot.

I'll get to the rest later :p

Due to problems that I had yesterday (not with your patch, but with mine), I have to ask philsov: How did you solve the Calculator slow down issue?

I tried to switch the skill set with Knight's single targeting abilities and while Knight's Math Skill seems to be working, Blue Mage's Battle Skill is not. At this rate, I'm probably just going to have to give turn Calculator into Gambler and Monk into Blue Mage even though Gambler has more multiple hit attacks than Knight....

He didn't.  Chocobo cure still is really slow.

Thankfully thats the only one affected by the lag, since everything else is either single target or single effect.

Quote from: "philsov"Thankfully thats the only one affected by the lag, since everything else is either single target or single effect.

It's also rather amusing how "Goblin PAWNCH" looks like "Goblin ASPLOSION" when a human uses it.

Which reminds me.

Add a Spell Quote for Goblin Punch that is simply "Goblin... PAWNCH!"

Quote from: "RavenOfRazgriz"Add a Spell Quote for Goblin Punch that is simply "Goblin... PAWNCH!"

This.

*casts Revive on topic*

*begins typing in a Stream of Conscience style*

Should Knights have a mini-swordstrike? PA*WP, 3 range, basically the same as the rest of the Ruin skills?

In Newtype, the White Magic skill Might gives 3 PA on targets. Could we had something like that?

Time Magic also had a CT 00 move called Delay. With the absence of Return 2, could we have that?

Could Thieves have a Steal MP or Steal Voice ability? Steal MP could be X+SP% of 100% MP Damage.

While I'm on Thieves, what about a Steal Life that adds Poison or Sabotage that adds Oil (we need more Oil moves IMO)? What about a Steal Turn ability, adds CT 00?

What if Archers had a CT 00 move called Trick Shot, Distracting Shot or Flinch shot?

I think Impact is currently misnamed. I think it should be called Cursed Shot or Concussion Shot. Impact Shot should deal 100% knockback on hit.

What if Camoflauge did Transparent and Float? Having extra height always helps for longbows. Float could be a separate ability, but it wouldn't be worth the CT it used.

Just going to throw this out there, but I think Counter Repeating Fist is a better fit than Counter Secret Fist. It's like Counter Tackle, only infinitely superior and less weirder. You can call it Counter Pummel or Fury.

I'm not philsov (and, honestly, I haven't seen him around in a while), but I would have to say that CT 00 abilities are WAY too easy to abuse. Persuade only gets away with because it actually gives Finger Guard some innate use.

I'm not really going to comment on anything else except to say that giving Camoflauge Float neither solves anything that's currently wrong with it nor does it make sense. Sure, Float would be beneficial to Longbows, but there's already Float abilities that don't see much love anyway.

Philsov has been around, he just hasn't had anything to say about ASM'D I guess. He was on yesterday. /stalker

As for Float not making sense, think of it as, a symbolic representation of the Ranger's (pretty much what the Archer is based on) traditional comfortability with the terrain. The extra height represents a jump shot. /bullshit

Float is underused because it's uses are so specific, and aren't worth casting most of the time. I say it doesn't hurt anything giving Float to a class that might actually use it regularly.

Besides, Float might not be so underused much longer. With reduced movement, movement-reducing terrain like swampland are going to be a real bitch, and being able to just ignore it will prove to be very valuable.

Oh, I've been around , just quietly working on more of this stuff.  And there haven't been many comments for me to respond to.  It's a two-way street, I suppose.

QuoteShould Knights have a mini-swordstrike?

I don't think so, as this would completely negate the attack command, even if there's a hefty MP cost attached to it.  Nor is it too fitting with their skillset, which is more for debuffing enemies than direct damage.

QuoteCould we had something like +3 PA?

I think that's too much of an imbalance, unless the success rate was so pitiful it was hardly worth casting in the first place.  Or if it had a temporary duration.  Casting this spell on a monk or squire (once) in chapter 1 will enable them to one-shot armored units.  O.o

QuoteCT 00

Is tricky to deal with, especially in boss-y 5 on 1 situations where two people can just spam CT00 abilities and completely lock the boss down while everyone else wails on him.  It is, however, staying in the talk skill.  As bosses will have innate finger guard, this means I can also up the success in persuade and watch it be worthwhile on everything else.

QuoteI think Impact is currently misnamed. I think it should be called Cursed Shot or Concussion Shot. Impact Shot should deal 100% knockback on hit.

Very true.  Dunno if I can swing a 100% knockback shot (as I don't want throw stone in all its spammableness to be 100%), but a rename is certainly in order.

QuoteCould Thieves have a Steal MP or Steal Voice ability? Steal MP could be X+SP% of 100% MP Damage.

Steal Voice (Silence), easily.  Works out kinda well since summoners lost their silencing move.  MP damage is already present with knight, oracle, and samu... don't think any more is necessary.

QuoteWhat if Camoflauge did Transparent and Float?

That'd be good.  Self float for more longbow range is pretty sweet.  I'm still on the fence (and wanting to do more testing) on base camoflague and its affect on the AI, but a "Leg Up" type ability can be inserted in some form or fashion for the Archer.

QuoteJust going to throw this out there, but I think Counter Repeating Fist is a better fit than Counter Secret Fist. It's like Counter Tackle, only infinitely superior and less weirder. You can call it Counter Pummel or Fury.  

Good idea, but I think its too redundant with Counter.  Counter Secret Fist I find to be more unique and equally useful.

Quote

QuoteCould we had something like +3 PA?

I think that's too much of an imbalance, unless the success rate was so pitiful it was hardly worth casting in the first place. Or if it had a temporary duration. Casting this spell on a monk or squire (once) in chapter 1 will enable them to one-shot armored units. O.o

Did I say +3 PA?!? *looks at post*

I did. I must have been on crack or something. I meant AoE +1 PA.

Maybe Counter Condemn just needs a better name so it's easier to swallow. How about Maul or Wound or Fatal Blow?

You could always change "Counter Condemn" to "Checkmate" ala the Fencer's skill from FFTA. It would be a much better name IMO.

Also, with regards to Steal Voice, I forget philsov. Silence in your patch still only affects spell-casters right?

yes.

though with the introduction of global C-Ev and innate weapon guard, Blind is a rather nasty ability that's basically caster-immune, so I'm not concerned with the disparity (despite that a blind attack is still possible, but that's a different angle).  What exactly does Addle do?

As for the semantics of Counter Condemn, it was more following the older naming scheme (as Condemn is the new name of Secret Fist, makes the skill completely intuitive), but I'm always open to suggestions.

I think part of the semantics is that Condemn doesn't "sound" physical like how Secret Fist did. Also, I think it'd be fairly intuitive considering that both Condemn and Counter Condemn/potentially Checkmate come from the same class. At worst, you'd have to mention it in the description just to clarify, but you should be doing that anyway.

As for Addle, it's basically just using the Silence boolean to limit physical attacks. In FFTA (funny how much I've taken from that game despite not ultimately liking it), Addle limited ALL special abilities IIRC, even for monsters. I don't think you'd have to go as far, especially since monsters need to be more threatening, not less. That said, it would help make negative status one-sided, though I do see your point with Blind and it's a good one.

(This reminds me: Are you getting rid of Concentrate? I vaguely remember you saying no.)

Since I'm bugging you, I'm still curious where you are on/with equipment. I'm harping on this still because a)I'm curious to see how much of Raven's suggestions you used if any and b)having another person to compare with would be good since I'm almost completely done with my equipment. (Armor is such a pain in the ass to try to "balance".) The only thing I have left to do is weapons (though, like armor, I'll probably have completely due almost all of them) and re-do a bit of shields.

Secret Fist -> Vitals Strike / Pressure Point
Counter Secret Fist -> Counter Vitals / Counter Pressure

Imo.  It keeps the vaguely campy / even sloppy? feel of the original FFT naming scheme while being physical sounding and fitting.

I don't like Addle at all unless the ways to apply it have dismally low success rates.  It's heavily disabling even with just being basic Silence.

As for equipment... heh.  It's kind of surprising how much of that document I basically bombed and redid after the last time I posted it, though I'm not sure how relevant much of it is to ASM'd anymore.  ;o

@The Damned:  Unless you did some of that crazy slashing/piercing/whatever stuff, I found armor/clothing/robes to be fairly easy to balance on my latest run of them, but I already had a lot of defined goals to work within in terms of max possible stats on X classes with Y setups, etc.

Quote from: "RavenOfRazgriz"Secret Fist -> Vitals Strike / Pressure Point
Counter Secret Fist -> Counter Vitals / Counter Pressure

Imo.  It keeps the vaguely campy / even sloppy? feel of the original FFT naming scheme while being physical sounding and fitting.

I don't like Addle at all unless the ways to apply it have dismally low success rates.  It's heavily disabling even with just being basic Silence.

As for equipment... heh.  It's kind of surprising how much of that document I basically bombed and redid after the last time I posted it, though I'm not sure how relevant much of it is to ASM'd anymore.  ;o

@The Damned:  Unless you did some of that crazy slashing/piercing/whatever stuff, I found armor/clothing/robes to be fairly easy to balance on my latest run of them, but I already had a lot of defined goals to work within in terms of max possible stats on X classes with Y setups, etc.

Don' Act is about equal to addle.  Addle doesn't end, but don't act stops attacks, evasion, and reaction.  If paralyze and arm aim don't have such low hit chances, neither should addle.

Yeah, seriously, Addle is less threatening than Don't Act, especially since it can't prevent all special skills. I don't think it can prevent any of the "special skills" like Item, Jump, Throw and such outside of Geomancy anyway. Don't Act also disables evasion completely, so...yeah.

Quote from: "RavenOfRazgriz"@The Damned:  Unless you did some of that crazy slashing/piercing/whatever stuff, I found armor/clothing/robes to be fairly easy to balance on my latest run of them, but I already had a lot of defined goals to work within in terms of max possible stats on X classes with Y setups, etc.

I had defined goals too. They're actually the problem since they're much more stringent: My chief goal was to make sure that only three things within a set group had overlap. So, by "balance" I mean more "tried to make everything have some use, perhaps even at end-game" rather than the current "almost everything gets outdated as you go on" model that vanilla, 1.3 and Easytype use; so I had to get rid of a LOT of overlap.

I also had to kill a lot of things that would have been otherwise overpowered in my hack (*cough*Thief Hat*cough*Black Costume*) and Clothes are generally less powerful when it comes to "defense"/HP since everyone can wear them now.

But enough about that. I'll probably have a thread in a week since I'm probably going to go on vacation for a while around that time.

Quote from: "formerdeathcorps"Don' Act is about equal to addle.  Addle doesn't end, but don't act stops attacks, evasion, and reaction.  If paralyze and arm aim don't have such low hit chances, neither should addle.

Addle not ending means a lot more than most other things in any situation where we want a battle going more than 3 turns.

It also means more because the things that make Don't Act "better" can easily be downplayed by CT manipulation, whereas with Silence -> Addle your only way to make it end period outside of negation is on-death.

Quote from: "The Damned"Yeah, seriously, Addle is less threatening than Don't Act, especially since it can't prevent all special skills. I don't think it can prevent any of the "special skills" like Item, Jump, Throw and such outside of Geomancy anyway. Don't Act also disables evasion completely, so...yeah.

So Addle is weaker because it doesn't disable the one skillset we likely want to prevent the spamming of and a bunch of highly linear skillsets of mostly questionable worth.

Addle can be used to block Draw Out as well, btw.

Again, CT means more in the long run.  If the unit is going to die in 2 turns after having its abilities sealed, it'll likely die in 2 turns in either scenario unless it's packing high evasion and/or Auto Potion... and even then your chances of killing are usually respectable and if it doesn't die, it's still a mostly useless unit unless its packed to have a powerful Attack command.

Which means Addle is mostly only "worse" in really niche situations, especially with ASM'd seemingly wanting battles to last longer (meaning CT based Don't Act wearing off and allowing for a comeback has higher probability of occurring).  In most situations, Addle is better, and the ability to use Attack Command still is generally only relevant on units you'd probably want to do something like put to Sleep over either status anyway.

Quote from: "The Damned"I had defined goals too. They're actually the problem since they're much more stringent: My chief goal was to make sure that only three things within a set group had overlap. So, by "balance" I mean more "tried to make everything have some use, perhaps even at end-game" rather than the current "almost everything gets outdated as you go on" model that vanilla, 1.3 and Easytype use; so I had to get rid of a LOT of overlap.

I also had to kill a lot of things that would have been otherwise overpowered in my hack (*cough*Thief Hat*cough*Black Costume*) and Clothes are generally less powerful when it comes to "defense"/HP since everyone can wear them now.

But enough about that. I'll probably have a thread in a week since I'm probably going to go on vacation for a while around that time.

I don't know your specifics, but that still sounds rather easy, honestly.

Force new HP and MP scales onto everything, rearrange them a bit so that everything balances how you want them to without touching their original effects, and then systematically find and change overlapping items once everything is scaled and ordered in a balanced way.

I found that solved everything really easily, since HP especially is very easy to go plug and chug with in 5 minutes.

I already finished with armor. It was just a great annoyance trying to make things different AND (seemingly) usable beyond HP and MP values, especially with the limited amount of Item Attributes. You'll see what I mean; I hope to finish weapons today and finally move on actually testing and doing more expansive things.

Regardless, you're speaking about Addle as if it NEEDS to block all special attacks. It doesn't need to. Personally, I'm still perfectly fine with Addle affecting magical classes (much) more than physical classes, so long as Addle/Silence DOES affect physical classes to some degree. (And yeah, I forgot about Draw Out because I ended up getting rid of it completely like a month ago. My bad.)

I don't know how far you've gotten with giving monsters immunities, but I decided to come up with an incomplete list to start it off.

Y.Chocobo: Immune to all status except Charm <---the weaker the monster, the more statuses he should get
B.Chocobo: Chicken, Charm, Petrify, Stop <---arguably the strongest
R. Chocobo: Chicken, Charm, Petrify, Stop, Dead
R. Goblin: Slow, Stop, Don't Move, Dead <---Slow toughens him up vs Knights
B. Goblin: Slow, Stop, Frog
G. Goblin: Slow, Stop, Frog, Dead
R. Panther: Confusion, Death Sentence, Blind, Slow, Stop, Don't Move <---I think Panthers are pretty underused, so lots of statuses for them
Cual: Confusion, Death Sentence, Blind, Stop, Don't Move
Vampire: Confusion, Don't Move
Bomb: Sleep, Stop, Don't Act, Don't Move
Grenade: Sleep, Stop
Explosive: Sleep
Bull Demon: Berserk Undead, Petrify, Slow, Don't Move, Dead, Chicken
Minitaurus: Berserk, Undead, Slow, Don't Move, Dead, Chicken
Sacred: Berserk, Undead, Don't Move, Chicken
Jurvais: Poison, Oil, Don't Move, Don't Act, Undead <---ideally, an Archer's Nightmare
Steel Hawk: Poison, Oil, Don't Move
Cocatoris: Poison, Oil
Pisco Demon: Frog, Berserk, Confusion, Blind, Stop<--Ideally, lower tiers should be immune to the effects of their higher tier siblings
Squidlarkin: Frog, Berserk, Confusion
Mindflare: Frog<---I hate Mindflares, so none for you
Skeleton: Blind, Silence, Poison, Charm, Confusion, Death Sentence, Dead, Frog, Sleep, Stop, Chicken
Bone Snatch: Blind, Silence, Poison, Charm, Confusion, Frog, Chicken
Living Bone: Blind, Silence, Poison, Charm, Chicken
Ghoul: Don't Move, Death Sentence, Dead, Sleep, Stop, Poison,
Gust: Don't Move, Death Sentence, Dead, Sleep
Revnant: Don't Move, Death Sentence, Dead
Flotiball: Frog, Poison, Berserk, Slow, Don't Move, Petrify, Sleep, Undead<---A Mage's Nightmare
Ahriman: Frog, Poison, Berserk, Slow, Don't Move
Plague: Frog, Poison, Berserk
Uribo: Undead, Stop, Oil<---Uribos don't need alot of statuses
Porky: Undead, Oil
Wildbow: Undead<---Who'd want to eat undead Porky? Not me.
Woodman: [s:1tujne20]Bubble Lead[/s:1tujne20] Don't Move, Stop, Confusion, Slow, Frog, Don't Act <---Anti-Anti-Movement because he's already suffered enough
Trent: Don't Move, Stop, Slow, Frog
Taiju: Don't Move, Stop, Slow
Morbol: Poison, Blind, Petrify, Dead, Death Sentence
Ochu: Poison, Blind, Petrify
Great Morbol: Poison, Blind, Petrify
Behemoth: Don't Act, Don't Move, Sleep, Frog, Slow, Stop, Petrify
King Behemoth: Don't Act, Don't Move, Sleep, Frog
Dark Behemoth: Don't Act, Don't Move <---Already Present in 1.3
Dragon: Dead, Death Sentence, Oil, Charm, Frog, Chicken
Blue Dragon: Dead, Death Sentence, Oil, Frog
Red Dragon: Dead, Death Sentence
Hyudra: Petrify, Chicken, Don't Act, Frog, Sleep, Slow, Undead, Charm, Blind <---lots of statuses to make up for not having a third move
Hydra: Petrify, Chicken, Slow
Tiamat: Petrify

That's... actually one facet I'd forgotten about.  Thanks for the reminder.

I'll normalize it a bit though....

Major status:
dead+death sentence
petrify
charm
frog
sleep
don't act

Minor status:
poison
undead
darkness
slow
stop
don't move
confusion
oil

Each monster family gets 1 major and 1 minor immunity.  t1 monsters gain an additional major and minor while t2 gain the same minor as t1.

So... '

Look good?  Tried to spread em out as best as possible.

I think you should reconsider leaving out Berserk as a immunity. Floti family should have Berserk immunity for sure.

Wouldn't Stop be far more major than Don't Act?

I don't see the purpose in monsters gaining status immunities.

Even in 1.3, monsters were heavily underrated and between things like 2-3 Move basically leave the game made for them.

This on top of it makes me think you're going for Final Fantasy Tactics: Special Pikachu Edition.  =p

That's assuming that he's leaving monster stats the same--also, while I do agree that there are quite a few 1.3 monsters that overrated, they still a)need humans to be truly effective and b)not all monsters can say the same; IIRC, the computer is pretty ignorant about how to use Monster Skill/Beast Master, so that's another additional disadvantage when it comes to fighting monsters. I feel like monsters should be threats on their own without necessarily having to OHKO-2HKO everything they touch. I mean, outside of Morbols and maybe Flotiballs, when was the last time you worried about a monster inflicting status on you rather than outright damaging you?

Considering he has a Blue Mage class, I don't recall if he ever gave an answer for how he was balancing those abilities for both humans and monsters, so perhaps this is it.

That said, I do somewhat agree with Raven that this is perhaps unnecessary if you're letting monsters keep their 1.3 movement, especially since humans move as horribly as Woodfolk now.

Then again, I've kind of given most of my monster way more status immunities, so really it's up to you, philsov. A more general overview of what you intend to do with monsters (and Blue Mage) would be helpful.

Finally, I agree with Zaen. Stop and Don't Act should switch places, even if you're factoring accuracy.

QuoteWouldn't Stop be far more major than Don't Act?

Not imo.  Don't Act lasts for longer and when afflicted with it the AI -runs- away, so the effects of Don't Act are at least 3 turns long.  Stop meanwhile is the loss of about 1 round of action, and the unit is still where he left off instead of running back into the fray.  Also DA has more avenues (and likelihood) of infliction.

However, including berserk into the mix is a good call, least for the more caster-y ones.

QuoteConsidering he has a Blue Mage class, I don't recall if he ever gave an answer for how he was balancing those abilities for both humans and monsters, so perhaps this is it.

The only abilities I'm balancing for both humans and monsters are the ones that are going to both humans and monsters in the first place.  However, the affected classes are getting their MA growth and multipliers warped.  For example:

Choco cure on a human with default value of like MA*4 is balls weak.  Choco cure gets bumped up to an MA*8 or something, and then chocobos get a lower MA to get back to their original final choco cure values.  Choco meteor then gets ratcheted up as well to control the ripple effect of lower MA.

There's still a few monster abilities that need to be looked at and changed/completely revamped, but in general they will be quite similar to what was seen in 1.3.  Chocobos, for example, aren't getting chicken as a monster skill, but I can't think of what (new?) ability can go in its place.

QuoteI mean, outside of Morbols and maybe Flotiballs, when was the last time you worried about a monster inflicting status on you rather than outright damaging you?

Goblins and squids suck with darkness/confusion combo, and the piggies of finath well... needed to be attended to.

Quoteif you're letting monsters keep their 1.3 movement, especially since humans move as horribly as Woodfolk now.

Newp.  They got scaled back along with everything else.  Woodfolk actually stayed at 2 because 1 is just horrible.  

QuoteI don't see the purpose in monsters gaining status immunities.

They can't equip accessories so I'd prefer them with a shotgunned list of immunities over absolutely none? >_>

It makes sense for them to have immunities. Think of it as defence mechanisms.

QuoteThere's still a few monster abilities that need to be looked at and changed/completely revamped, but in general they will be quite similar to what was seen in 1.3. Chocobos, for example, aren't getting chicken as a monster skill, but I can't think of what (new?) ability can go in its place.

Chocobuckle?

Hah...  I read that wrong. I thought a chocobo in place of Carbuncle with a red diamond on it's forehead...

Make Chocobuckle like Repeating Fists formula maybe.

Okay, I'll be a little more serious. How about a stronger version of Choco Meteor? Or a 100% Single Target Heal Move? Or instant AoE Haste?

Quote from: "philsov"They can't equip accessories so I'd prefer them with a shotgunned list of immunities over absolutely none? >_>

It's not like higher movement ranges and skills that'd make people cringe if a human unit had them in addition to nice raw stats isn't enough, is it?

Don't make me make my first run of this patch a Beastmaster playthrough.  I will, you know.  1.3 Beastmaster has already been more than easy enough going into Chapter 3 honestly, heh.  I should play that more when I get home tonight, I haven't in a while.

Wow. I was going for unlocking Geomancer, since that's my favorite job, but this guy has the same requirements, and... wow. When I first saw where this job was going, I thought it'd be annoying to have to be primary Blue Mage, then find monsters to use the abilities on the mage... lots of work. After using them, I see this problem won't be too much of a bother, as every character I have has switched to Blue Mage permanently.

But silliness aside, balance. I see these guys are still under construction as the two starting abilities have no charge time, no mp cost, and hit for more than the lev 1 Black Magic spells I have available, slightly less than the 3s, but those take tons of time and mp, and then the nuisance of Faith scores. The lack of vertical range restriction on Small Flame is especially powerful in this more "positioning-emphasized" environment... and even if the numbers are intended to be... (seems like... MA+2*8 and 12?) ...at this level, it still feels like the abilities are too simple, not suitable for a "mage". Adding a mp cost and charge to many/most/all of them would be awesome.

(Now if you're going for FFV Blue Mage, which I assume you are, with the swords... then they should have rods and shields available too, like their older rendition... the old Blue Mages also could equip armor, and that's probably pushing it... but then you'd have no MP... tradeoff acceptable?)

Gonna try editing the save file and throwing on all the monster abilities available... or have you fiddled with their formulas yet?

Uhh, see, the thing is, they aren't supposed to have those. They aren't supposed to have any starting abilities.

Well, if the balance for those is that they're all hard to acquire, that seems a bit off... Even if they only had Small Flame (Sweegy Woods), I would use it on all my characters for the rest of Chapter one. I should just emphasize the abilities feel too simple for now: no mana cost or charge time. For instance, Leaf Dance vs Wave Around... I only see Wave Around used if somehow you got surrounded by enemies followed by a layer of allies you didn't want to hit, and usually I'd just hit the allies anyways. (Of course they're different formulas, but I'm assuming Blue Mage primary, so PA/MA are relatively close.)

Also noticed Silence doesn't effect Blue Magic, but I don't really see that as a problem/bug...
And why does Stab Up play the dance animation? Heh... heh... cute.

charge time is something I don't really want to deal with due to ripples in the monster paradigm.

However, MP cost will certainly be considered to make some of the better abilities... less than spammable.

Regarding blue mages in general, rods can be equipable, yes.  Don't wanna give them shields, however, and less so armor because I want them with below average HP and giving them armor contradicts this.  However, I'm pretty sure most of the abilities have been fiddled with regarding their coefficient. It's a tricky thing to balance... there's no multiple ranks so Flame Attack (e.g.) is supposed to be viable for a majority of the game with a single MA coefficient; so yes, odds are it will be stronger than desired early on and balance out as the game progresses -- vanilla repeating fist is very similar.  It's a VERY worthwhile ability in chapter 1 but then plum useless afterwards.  The only thing I can do is limit monster selection early on and load up the later-gained abilities to be stronger... but honestly the spellbook will be at 75% or so during chapter 2, with 3 unlockables in chapter 3 and then whatever tiamats give them way at the end.  

~

Aaaaanyways, Zodiac has come forth with a beta for Ability Hack requirements.  Basically, I can flag any ability to only be useable under certain circumstances, including weapon/item-based (Axe-only skill, hat+robe-only), weapon-restrictive (can't be in heavy armor/helmet), requiring specific items (genji-only attack!), only when afflicted with a certain status(ii), or only by certain primary/secondaries or only if equipped with a certain R/S/M.  Needless to say the possibilities are near-endless and this will certainly solve the issue of leftover ability slots going unheard.

So far the only thing I know I want is a Knight-sword only ability in the Battle Skill skillset, both an x-bow and longbow-only ability into the Archer, and a critical-only move to Basic Skill.  

Any other suggestions?

I was wondering, could it be used to stop Two Swords Fists? As for abilities, maybe a Knife Only move for steal or basic skill. An attack that doesn't trigger reactions, SP*WP?

QuoteI was wondering, could it be used to stop Two Swords Fists?

Regretably, no.  Currently the only thing moddable are active action abilities (can't edit items, sadface), which "attack" is not.  

QuoteAn attack that doesn't trigger reactions

We... can rig that?

More shotgunned brainstorm ideas: enable the useless and otherwise gameshark-only R/S/M of Reflect and Silent walk to be learned and a pre-req for a linked ability.  Like we can rename the reaction to something like "Lifespore", and then make the linked ability a spammable 100% self-only cure which is a reasonable (imo) for not having a real reaction ability.  The same can be done for Any Weather / Any Ground, Sunken state, or other extremely low-tier goodies.

Knife-only Steal ability sounds cool too.

Quote from: "philsov"Regretably, no.  Currently the only thing moddable are active action abilities (can't edit items, sadface), which "attack" is not.  

Too bad.

QuoteWe... can rig that?

Oh never mind. LFT was pulling my leg.

QuoteMore shotgunned brainstorm ideas: enable the useless and otherwise gameshark-only R/S/M of Reflect and Silent walk to be learned and a pre-req for a linked ability.  Like we can rename the reaction to something like "Lifespore", and then make the linked ability a spammable 100% self-only cure which is a reasonable (imo) for not having a real reaction ability.  The same can be done for Any Weather / Any Ground, Sunken state, or other extremely low-tier goodies.

Knife-only Steal ability sounds cool too.

That sounds very good. Could we prevent MP-Switch/Move MP Up as well?

Actually... Attack is the slot one above Potion... and it is an action ability, as if you look in the thing to choose menus, like the Item inventory for Item, and so on, it's the Attack one. Attack is technically a one ability skillset.

Hunh. I was wondering what the Ability Hack in the other thread was.

That seems...quite interesting, yet the same time it seems like it could easily screw over the AI, especially since Zodiac said there was still work to be done. Still...this at least solves the Archer problem if nothing else.

I'm not too crazy to tying it to the weaker RSMs even without the AI concerns if only because there's not nearly as much ability space to merit as one would think, especially since I would say that it would take at least 4 abilities to "validate" the use for every abilitiy if not more than 4. Even then, doing for every crappy RSM (Gilgame Heart, Any Weather, Distribute readily come to mind and they are hardly the only ones) would seriously cut down on abilities available to be generally abused, especially since abilities tend to get outdated as it is, at least along the mage path. I could maybe doing "quirky" things with status, like recreating "Sight Unseeing" and things like that, and restricting weapon and armor class for some abilities--hell, I could even see restricting all magic to not able to be used with heavy armor just because Equip Armor so's readily abusable. But the RSM thing just seems like it be too complex and too much of a problem, at least as a starting point.

Speaking of status as a trigger, would this include the status of the target? Because I'm quite tired of having to use the Death formula to trigger something.

I feel like I'm forgetting something, but I guess if my Internet is still up after Friday, I can finally get around to testing things.

Hmmm...I have to wonder if this might allow for...well that's an entirely different discussion.

Quotewould this include the status of the target?

Not as far as I can see.  Only the user.  

Really the scope of this sort of tool is awesome in a hands of a brand new hack featuring stuff like a Weapon Master or Channeler, who have a very large ability pool but can only use a select few based on their current equipment/status.  Keeping stuff in the context of the current class system will be a bit tricky, in terms of being placed in the proper skillsets -- like as much as I'd love to have a Genji-only draw out, I can;t just add in another katana and draw out skill (or can I!?!); the same goes for the water movements on both samurai and ninja, and lava on geomancers -- their skillsets are rather locked down, so its RSM shuffle to gain those abilities as well.  

As for tying abilities to pre-req RSM, its currently no big deal as there's still 9-ish free ability slots, so alloting a few to this end is no big deal.  Making a class-only ability would be rather cool, but that also requiires 20 free slots.

QuoteStill...this at least solves the Archer problem if nothing else.

What archer problem? O.o

Quotelike as much as I'd love to have a Genji-only draw out, I can;t just add in another katana and draw out skill (or can I!?!)

Considering the Masamune is traditionally supposed to be a part of the Genji set, why not just use its draw out?

Tie the higher Drawouts (Masamune, Chirijiraden) to their respective katanas. Or katanas in general.

Quote from: "philsov"

Quotewould this include the status of the target?

Not as far as I can see.  Only the user.

I see. Well, there goes Hastebreak, but I haven't actually worked my hack in 3 weeks, so maybe this will be the fire under my ass or whatever.

Quote

QuoteStill...this at least solves the Archer problem if nothing else.

What archer problem? O.o

Personally I would only want most Archery techniques to be usable by an Archer, but I'm not sure if you wanted that. I thought you did, but I may just be projecting.

That said, it would at least take care of people spamming Poison Volley, but IIRC, I believe you said you were going to nerf that or something.

You're just projecting .  I -can- flag a lot of these moves as longbow/xbow only, but I'd rather not.  The only skill I am planning to do so with is the new "fire arrow", which is just like it sounds -- its a basic weapon strike that's fire elemental.  Faboo when used with Oil Bomb though.  

The real nice thing about this tool is that it opens up the otherwise forbidden 01/02/05/etc formulas that did dmg:weapon because they can all be flagged to be specific weapon only, or at the very least "no guns" to bypass that stacking wp*wp damage bug.  So, now I've procured a new ability for archer and knight, and then 4 for Squire/Basic Skill -- all of which are weapon tied.  So... looks like Squire might finally be getting equip change innate (rejoice raven!).  Throw in a new critical only-move for thief and worthless-reaction-only move for monk... and I'm down to 3 ability slots left!  I'll probably save them for bosses~

Oh philsov, you're such a tease.

I just realized: This hack makes the Requires Sword and Requires Materia Blade booleans worthless, doesn't it?

This seems to solve that Knight weapon problem I was going to encounter, though.

Large monsters should be immune to knockback.

There is no knockback flag for me to make them immune to, sadly.

OK... new R/S/M to toy with:

Reaction - Awareness - Enables full evasion from all sides - basically, that unit is always directly facing their attacker
Support - Amplify - Unit deals and receives 20% more damage and healing
Support - Insulate - Unit deals and received 20% less damage and healing
Movement - Flee - Unit gains +4 movement while in the critical status

Thinking:

Awareness - Knight
Amplify - Lancer
Insulate - Oracle (I think there's RSM space there?)
Flee - Bard + Dancer

so i've looked for how to edit R/S/M abilities, but i haven't found much on it.  how do u go about modifying them?  i could change all the abilities to try and make each Job feel different, but the R/S/M abilities can make a Job a lot more unique than any of the other abilities.  if there's a topic on how to edit them, just a link would do.  i don't want to have u writing an explanation if one already exists elsewhere.

They're not freely editable like stuff in fftpatcher, at least.  The four above are created from existing blank slots by FFMaster, using ASM and notably this tutorial:

http://ffhacktics.com/tutorials.php?id=11 (http://ffhacktics.com/tutorials.php?id=11)

OP updated with rough generic skillset outline, and I updated the Job Requirement spoiler to include a bitching tree picture that I still need to touch up because some of the colors scrambled =\

first post, please be kind...

been following your progress closer than most philsov since you decided to remove my second most hated skillset(charge) which strangely many others seem to think is salvageable*  it's too bad about jump  :cry:

few comments/questions on ability plans:
haven't played your demo so i apologize if some of these are answered in there

----innate weapon guard/abandon removal. 

these mean that all reaction abilities are modified by brave and in all situations high brave > low brave with the sole exclusion of move-find item

everywhere I've looked brave/faith modifying are looked on as either taking unfair advantage of mechanics or full on cheating, but the conditions you've instituted encourage it to a very high level... intentional?

I'm not sure what all is possible yet, but have you considered making some reactions (100-brave)% chance of working?  my thoughts were the more defensive reactions(getting hit helps you: xxx-save, regenerator, crit-quick) being based off cowardice, and the offensive ones(getting hit hurts foe: counter flood/tackle, damage split, meatbone) basing off bravery.

squire-
everyone getting wish/cheer up or just ramza?  if just ramza, remember to add vertical 1 to it, its nigh useless without.

chemist-
fine, like the new items except shades of grey(just that i won't use it, not that its a bad idea), prices/availability will determine usefulness.  item is already a strong skillset just based off phoenix down

knight-
possible/planned to make shatter only damage if those statuses are present?  33% is a LOT otherwise

archer-
  :D charge is gone! :mrgreen:
snipe gets my vote for the killshot move's name

priest-
fine, remember there needs to be a reason to use pro/shell 2, smart targeting OR effect range increase get my vote

wizard-
are the differences between the nukes going to be so pronounced that you'd cast bolt on an ice-weak foe?
double magic is gonna be fun to play with.

monk-
are you planning on re-doing damage formulas for punch arts? without martial arts boost they tend to be incredibly weak( 10 hp chakra and 2 dmg wave fist weak)

really I'm against removing innate martial arts altogether, the martial arts/attack up martial arts/equip armor combos(what I'm assuming you're trying to avoid) are really the main reasons to be a main class monk considering the massive penalties you take from having to keep both hand slots free(shields, elemental weapons, weapon guard)

lancer-
:cry: :cry: :cry:

thief-
fine

Blue mage-
will need to play it

oracle-
love quell, nice to have a "oh god that mage WILL kill ramza next turn" move
dislike loss of foxbird,  enemy brave lowering is actually quite underrated even beyond the "chicken" status(easiest way to kill a blade grasp/autopotion foe, kill his brave til the reaction stops mattering)

mediator-
assuming my comments about reactions are not possible/desired, would like the brave- skills to be stronger.  really I wish there were statuses comparative to faith/innocent for brave.

geomancer-
not sure what you mean:

QuoteElementals - 3-way split between:

[(PA + 4) / 2] * MA
[(MA + 4) / 2] * MA
[(PA + 4) / 2] * PA

if you're asking for our opinions, "[(PA + 4) / 2] * MA" gets my vote
if you're saying each move will fall in one of those categories, I just hope you remember how rare certain elementals are(1 map in game for lava ball, really square?)

samurai-
blade grasp is overpowered with brave modifying enabled , nix it for players unless you can nerf it considerably frontal only, edge weapon only, reduced boost-25% of brave added, not sure how but it's incredibly powerful as is

ninja-
if two swords is unlearnable, not too sure about the need to cripple ninja PA, just take them off flails.  daggers/ninja swords are weak enough that just a slight-moderate PA loss should be sufficient.  put them on par with chemist before equipping attack up

berserker-
have to play it

performer-
fine

time mage-
expire requires death sentence right? then fine

summoner-
not to keen on dumb targeting summons(always seems to me that that is summoners #1 calling card, all smart targets) but i can adjust, leave them in.
recommend changing move-mp+ from wizard to here or blue mage,  little too powerful to be a starter class ability and move-hp+ is on a secondary(monk)

all in all, very much looking forward to your patch(though really just the archer changes with some ASM's would get that response from me) keep up the good work.


*charge(like jump) should have had 3 charges, a quick-weak, a moderate speed/dmg, and a slow-powerful and then some utility.  8? different charges was a huge waste.

Thanks for getting on this so quickly, philsov. I was meaning to post as soon as I saw it, but I've been kind of busy the past ten hours.

Quote from: philsov on April 11, 2010, 05:39:25 pm- All generic classes gain a "starter" skill or two, a 0 JP ability to freely purchase and use as soon as the class becomes available.

Would you mind terribly telling us what the particular skills are per class? Or have you not entirely decided yet?

Quote from: philsov on April 11, 2010, 05:39:25 pmSquire:

spoiler

Accumulate - +1 PA
Throw Stone - light damage with knockback
Heal - heals about half of what esuna does
Yell - single target Haste, self-immune
Cheer Up - single target regen
Wish - instant 1 range Revival
Pierce - sword - double panel strike
Cleave - axe - attempts to take off a large amount of the targets HP
Acupuncture - xbow - healing weapon strike
Flailing Flail - flail - allows for a doublestrike proc
Throat Slit - dagger - attempts to inflict Death
~
Awareness (always use Front evasion)
Equip Meleeset (equip swords, axes, flails)
Defend
Flee - when critical, gains 4 movement

I don't particularly like Throat Slit, though I understand why it's there. Aside from that, the only other ability I have questions about is Cleave and that's mostly if it's taken a hit to its damage--IIRC, it was supposed to do 75%, right?

I have to thank you for making Yell self-immune. Talk Skill-esque skills being able to hit the user, aside from Mimic Daravon, bug the hell out of me; stupid 1.3 Preach.

I find it a bit odd that Squire gets Flee, but I think I understand why giving what an appealing skill it is.

Quote from: philsov on April 11, 2010, 05:39:25 pmChemist

spoiler

Potion - 30 HP
Hi-Potion - 60 HP
X-Potion - 100 HP
Ultra Potion - 200 HP (auto-potion immune)
Ether - 20 MP
Hi Ether - 50 MP
X Ether - ?80? MP
Turtle Shell - adds Protect and Slow
Dual Kiss - adds Haste and Poison
Shades of Grey - adds either Innocent or Faith
Holy Water - cleanses stuff
Remedy - cleanses more stuff
Exilir - Max HP/MP
~
Auto-Potion
Maintenance
Equip Change
Move Find Item

Not too thrilled about you keeping Elixirs around, but otherwise I agree with your items and I think we did much of the same thing outside of Shades of Grey and Turtle Shell, though the latter was the same until just yesterday. As such, I would say that 80 MP for X-Ether seems like it's reasonable. I can't imagine that you'd want to hit 100 or anything as potentially ridiculous as that, but then again I'm not really sure myself, so....

Would you mind telling us what "stuff" Remedy and Holy Water cure?

Quote from: philsov on April 11, 2010, 05:39:25 pm
Knight

spoiler

Power Ruin - 3 range, -3 PA
Mind Ruin - 3 range, -3 MA
Speed Ruin - 3 range, Slow
Magic Ruin - 3 range, MP damage
Weapon break
Head break
armor break
shield break
Shatter - cancels Defending, Protect, and/or Shell and inflicts 33% Max HP damage
Champion - Knight Sword only - HP draining weapon strike
~
Auto Protect
Counter
Equip Armor
Equip Shield

Well have to see how Champion goes. Otherwise, given that my Debarrier is basically the same as your Shatter, I'm guess it uses the Death formula? Are you comfortable with it always healing Undead?

Does Magic Ruin still do 50% MP "damage"?

Quote from: philsov on April 11, 2010, 05:39:25 pmArcher

spoiler

Leg Up - Self-only Float
Execute/Snipe - Deals 21% HP damage to critical units
Sticky Bomb - 3 range 1 AoE 0 vert tol - inflicts either Oil or Don't Move onto targets
Poison Bomb - 3 range 1 AoE 1 vert told - inflicts Poison
Aim - Unevadeable but weaker weapon strike
Impact - Stronger weapon strike with 100% Silence infliction
Fire Arrow - Fire-elemental weapon strike with a 25% chance to proc Fire2
Salve - cleanses some status on a single target and heals for 20% HP on doing so
~
Arrow Guard
Meatbone Slash
Equip Bows
Concentrate
Jump +1

I like Sticky Bomb. I'm not sure what formula you're using for Fire Arrow, to be honest.

And, seriously, just call Execute "Snipe" or just something other than Execute if it can be used with a distance weapon. There's probably a better word than either of those for all weapons; Execute just really bugs me for some reason, at least when arrows are involved....

Quote from: philsov on April 11, 2010, 05:39:25 pmPriest

spoiler

Cure 1
Cure 2
Cure 3
Solace - Instant single target heal
Raise
Raise2
Reraise
Regen
Protect
Protect2
Shell
Shell2
Wall
Esuna
Holy
~
Auto Shell
Regenerator
Magic Def Up

Not sure how I feel about Solace or any of the other O CTR abilities to be sure. Not much else to say.

Quote from: philsov on April 11, 2010, 05:39:25 pmWizard

spoiler

Fire
Fire2
Fire3
Blaze - instant single fire
Bolt
Bolt2
Bolt3
Jolt - see blaze
Ice
Ice2
Ice3
Freeze - see jolt
Virus - non-elemental tier 2 damage with a poison proc
Frog
Death
Flare
~
Double Magic (Counter Magic, but it got expanded to include beneficial spells as well)
Magic Attack Up
Move MP Up

I don't really like the idea of Double Magic, to be honest, especially with Move MP Up. It's basically giving you a more controllable (magic) Mime. What "beneficial" spells are we talking about here?

Quote from: philsov on April 11, 2010, 05:39:25 pmMonk - notably lose innate Martial Arts

spoiler

Spin Fist
Repeating Fist (1.3 version)
Wave Fist
Earth Slash
Secret Fist
Stigma Magic
Chakra
Revive
~
Condemn (counter secret fist)
Brave Up
Martial Arts
Move HP Up

I'm guessing Monks PA has been buffed if they're losing innate Martial Arts? I find it rather odd that they're losing innate Martial Arts but Martial Arts is still available to generics.

Quote from: philsov on April 11, 2010, 05:39:25 pm
Lancer

spoiler

Jump.  /cry
~
Dragon Spirit
Equip Polearms
Ignore Height

Jump isn't bad, especially since we can't replicate it outside of the skill set unlike Charge. Sigh. If only....

Quote from: philsov on April 11, 2010, 05:39:25 pm
Thief

spoiler

Steal Sanity - 3 range, inflicts Confusion on target
Steal Heart - 3 range, inflicts charm
Last Laugh - Critical only - inflicts Poison, Silence, and Blind onto single target
Steal armor
steal shield
steal weapon
steal acc
steal helmet
~
Speed Save
Equip Clothes
Secret Hunt
Move +1
Jump +2

Still not sure how I feel about Last Laugh or Equip Clothes, but we'll see.

Quote from: philsov on April 11, 2010, 05:39:25 pmBlue Mage - Damage Split and Def Up notably increased in JP because what else are you gonna spend JP on?

spoiler

Choco Cure
Goblin Punch
Eruption
Blaster
Throw Spirit
Drain Touch
Leaf Dance
Doom
Sudden Cry
Necrotic Touch
Wave Around
Ice Breath
Bio3 - Queklain
Quake - Fury 1 (special enemy of Yuguo)
Melt - Fury 2 (special enemy of Poeskas)
Tornado - Fury 3 (special enemy of Poeskas)
~
Damage Split
Distribute
Gained Exp Up
Def Up
Move Get Exp

I'm guessing Bio 3 can be obtained from more than just Queklain?

Quote from: philsov on April 11, 2010, 05:39:25 pm
Oracle

spoiler

Blind
Spell Absorb
Life Drain
Pray Faith
Doubt Faith
Zombie
Silence Song
Blind Rage
Quell - 0 CTR ability, cancels charging
Countdown - Death Sentence
Confusion Song
Dispel Magic
Paralyze
Sleep
Petrify
~
Absorb Used MP
Faith Up
Equip Polearms
Equip Mageset
Any Weather

Again, not really sure about Quell, especially given its instant Speed.

Outside of that, Countdown seems like it'd be better if Time Mages had it, but that's probably just because of Expire and it being on my Time Mage, though there is the fact that Petrify is basically instant Death anyway....

Quote from: philsov on April 11, 2010, 05:39:25 pmMediator

spoiler

Invite
Persuade - CT 00 with moderate success rate
Praise - +10 Br
Dissuage - -10 Br
Enlighten - +10 Fa
Dishearten - -10 Fa
Insult - Berserk
Mimic Daravon - Sleep
Refute - cancels all status on target
Preach - reraise
Warn - defending (with AoE)
Threaten - Don't Act
~
Finger Guard
Equip Gun
Train
Monster Talk

Kind of surprised you went with both 1.3 skills and keeping both Invite and Persuade.

Quote from: philsov on April 11, 2010, 05:39:25 pm
Geomancer:

spoiler

Elementals - 3-way split between:

[(PA + 4) / 2] * MA
[(MA + 4) / 2] * MA
[(PA + 4) / 2] * PA
~
Counter Flood
Insulate (20% less damage/healing in/out)
Amplify (20% more damage/healing in/out)
Move on Lava
Any Ground

Haven't decided on which ones are going to be which yet?

Quote from: philsov on April 11, 2010, 05:39:25 pm
Samurai:

spoiler

Asura - 2 range tri-directional hitting both enemies and allies.  Dispel Magic proc
Koutetsu - 5 range linear damage, hitting both.  Silence proc
Bizen Boat - 2 range full self AoEl MP damage, hitting both
Murasame - 1 range self AoE healing, smart targetting
Heavens Cloud - 2 range full self AoE damage, infinite vert tol, slow proc
Kiyomori - 2 range self AoE protect or shell, smart targetting
Muramasa - 2 range tri-directional hitting both.  no proc, higher damage
Kikuichimoji - 5 range linear hitting both, no proc, higher damage
Masamune - 2 range full self AoE haste or regen, smart targetting
Chiri - 2 range full AoE damage, no proc
~
HP Restore
Blade Grasp (possibly)
Two Hands (getting nerfed to ~50% boost)
Move In Water

Oh, so this is the one class that has tri-directional attacks (besides Blue Mage). I should have figured.

Outside of that, I suppose I have to thank you for nerfing the damage from Two Hands. I do, however, have to ask you why the hell you would bring Blade Grasp back. What would it be nerfed too?

Quote from: philsov on April 11, 2010, 05:39:25 pm
Ninja - has pathetic PA, but innate Two Swords (two swords is not available for purchase!)

spoiler

Throw stuff
~
Catch
Abandon (possibly, ASM is present to make it a 50% boost instead of 100%, need to run numbers)
Attack Up
Walk on Water

Nothing to say here, really.

Quote from: philsov on April 11, 2010, 05:39:25 pm
Berserker - Female Only

spoiler

Berserk - self-only berserk, haste, regen, and defending
Takedown - melee-range single target attack with recoil damage
Cripple - PA+60% chance to inflict either Don't Move or Don't Act onto the target
Shove - Deals light-medium damage and forces target back a space
Ground-Shaker - Self AoE of 2 dealing earth damage to everything in range (mimic titan for humans)
Howl - Self AoE of 1 that Stops all affected targets, high success rate
Frenzy - Persevering melee-range attack
Heartbreaker - 3 range single target attack that inflicts a negative status onto males.
~
MA Save
PA Save
Focus - 25% boost to all % abilities (40% becomes 50%)
Move +2
Jump +3

Not sure how I feel about Focus. Everything else seems okay (and I'm not just saying that because, besides Heartbreaker, these are my ideas), though I'd have to say that Jump +3 is pretty pointless when Lancer has Ignore Height.

Quote from: philsov on April 11, 2010, 05:39:25 pm
Performer - Male only.  All song/dance are self-AoE of 6 atm instead of fullmap.  Lost Last Dance because CT00 are the evil.

spoiler

Life Song
Angel Song
War Song
Magic Song
Nameless Song
Last Song
Wiznaibus
Witch Hunt
Disillusion
Polka Polka
Nameless Dance
~
MA Save
PA Save
Focus - 25% boost to all % abilities (40% becomes 50%)
Move +2
Jump +3

See above.

Quote from: philsov on April 11, 2010, 05:39:25 pm
Time Mage

spoiler

Haste
Haste2
Slow
Slow2
Stop
Don't Move
Float
Reflect
Quick
Demi (1 AoE, 33% HP damage)
Demi2 (0 AoE, 67% HP damage)
Expire (cancels Death Sentence, inflicts 100% HP damage)
Comet (0 CTR single target damage)
Meteor
~
Critical Quick
Short Charge
Float
Fly

Not sure how I feel about Time Mages keeping Meteor, but otherwise it's okay. Nice to see they got Fly since it makes sense, even if it's something that would go equally well on Blue Mage (if you got them later).

Quote from: philsov on April 11, 2010, 05:39:25 pmSummoner

spoiler

Moogle - AoE healing, smart
Fairy - AoE Rezzing at 33% HP, smart
Silf - 0 CTR, single target, seperately inflicts Poison, Don't Move
Carbunkle - 3 range 2 AoE smart targetting Reflect

Shiva - 3 range, 3 directions, smart targeting
Ramuh - 5 range linear, smart targetting
Ifrit - 3 range 2 AoE, dumb targetting
Titan - 3 range 2 AoE, smart targetting (more MP than ifrit)

Odin - 3 range 3 direction smart
Leviathan - 5 range linear smart
Salamander - 3 range 2 AoE dumb
Bahamut - 3 range 2 AoE smart (more MP than salamander)

Lich - 3 range 2 AoE 40% HP damage smart
Cyclops - 3 range 2 AoE straight damage, dumb (a little stronger than salamander)
Zodiac - 4 range 2 AoE straight damage, smart (certainly stronger than cyclops)
~
MP Restore - restores MP each hit.  No critical necessary
Half MP

I have to that I don't like there are "dumb" targeting spells, though I'd probably be able to stand a bit more if BOTH Fire weren't "dumb". Otherwise, meh. I'll have to see how the tri-directional thing works before I comment on it further.

QuoteMime - Innate Concentrate, Monster Talk, Counter, Double Magic

Like Monks, I'm guessing Mimes have gotten more PA to compensate for Martial Arts, yes? Otherwise, I can get behind these innates (though I'd rather Double Magic just be plain old Counter Magic).

If I fiddled around with the Jump skillset a bit in ASM, is that something that would get used? Don't expect usable action abilities or anything, but since the baseline is so awful I figure even just having more varied augments for Jump would be worthwhile. (I was thinking stuff like 100% hit rate, 3/2 spear damage, 4/3 other weapon damage, Cancel:Charging, Performing, maybe even a permanent +1 Jump passive... I'm sure there are better ideas.)

Quoteis that something that would get used?

Certainly.  Currently there's an ASM hack in place that makes the modifier 3/2 regardless of weapon but 3/2 for spear and 4/3 for everything else is a much much better solution.  Cancel - charging/performing is a boon as well (moreso performing), and baseline +1 Jump would be even better.  Just about anything is welcome at this point.  

Hm... don't think any additional cancels would be worthwhile, +1 Jump is the right level of perk, multipliers are good...

Is there a way to give it a set CTR (perhaps 6?), provided it's short charge immune?

@Others -- I'll reply later <3

Quotefirst post, please be kind...

WELCOME TO FFH, WHERE ALL YOUR DREAMS COME TRUE.

Quoteit's too bad about jump

Not really.  We can give them a normal skillset (same as ninja and others), but Jump is too unique to be let go so capriciously imo.  The character in midair and out of battle for X ticks is something we cannot replicate.  It sucks that its a bit bland in that it's basically a single command and lacks any matter of versatility while barely being worthwhile enough to justify its use in general, but that's the reality.  Charge, on the other hand, was not worthwhile enough so it met the jackboot.

Quotethese mean that all reaction abilities are modified by brave and in all situations high brave > low brave with the sole exclusion of move-find item

Correct.  But even if weapon guard and abandon were around, there still isn't a single situation (reaction, rather) that's better at low Br than high Br.  Which leads us to...

Quotebut have you considered making some reactions (100-brave)% chance of working?

Honestly?  No, the thought never crossed my mind.  It'd certainly be a twist though.  There are mechanics to change the reaction trigger like, say, CT%, where you had for example just acted, you're not ready to act again and thus have horrible odds while if you're attacked just before your turn you're prime and ready to go, but all those seemed either too random or in the case of other triggers, like HP out of some constant, poor scalers.

Quotesquire-
everyone getting wish/cheer up or just ramza?

Everyone.  Wish certainly has some vert tol (I think 3?) to help distinguish it from monk's revive (0).  In fact, Ramza isn't even getting Wish or Yell but an upgraded version, also shared by Algus and Weigraf (!)

QuoteI don't particularly like Throat Slit, though I understand why it's there. Aside from that, the only other ability I have questions about is Cleave and that's mostly if it's taken a hit to its damage--IIRC, it was supposed to do 75%, right?  I have to thank you for making Yell self-immune. Talk Skill-esque skills being able to hit the user, aside from Mimic Daravon, bug the hell out of me; stupid 1.3 Preach.  I find it a bit odd that Squire gets Flee, but I think I understand why giving what an appealing skill it is.

Yeah... I wanted some Dagger-exclusive move.  Throat slit seemed to work, but I'm open to other thoughts if they occur.  Regarding cleave, yes, currently it's 75% with ~50% success rate, but suppose it might be better tweaked to do less damage but is a touch more reliable?  Flee... is there because the current tier-1 movements were Jump +1, Move Find Item, and Move HP Up.  Move +1 is generally better than Flee, and so I wanted Flee available before Move +1 did.  

Quotechemist-
fine, like the new items except shades of grey(just that i won't use it, not that its a bad idea), prices/availability will determine usefulness.  item is already a strong skillset just based off phoenix down

Not too thrilled about you keeping Elixirs around, but otherwise I agree with your items and I think we did much of the same thing outside of Shades of Grey and Turtle Shell, though the latter was the same until just yesterday. As such, I would say that 80 MP for X-Ether seems like it's reasonable. I can't imagine that you'd want to hit 100 or anything as potentially ridiculous as that, but then again I'm not really sure myself, so....

Would you mind telling us what "stuff" Remedy and Holy Water cure?

Elixir won't be available via poaching, at least -- I'm torn between lategame random battle trophies or lategame storyline trophies (ie, finite versus farmable).  Shades of Grey is more a response to being able to inflict faith/innocent outside of the Oracle skillset, and since Item only really works as 100% infliction, I figure 50/50 shot is a lot better than blammo 100% Faith.

As for the cleanseables, it's pretty much identical to vanilla.  Holy Water is Petrify, Undead, Blood Suck, while Remedy is Petrify, Darkness, Confusion, Silence, Oil, Frog, Poison, Sleep.  

Oh!  Forgot to mention it.  On success with remedy/holy water the target is healed for randomly between 1 and 150 HP.  With the other two main cleansers being AoE I thought Item needed the perk.

Quoteknight-
possible/planned to make shatter only damage if those statuses are present?  33% is a LOT otherwise

Well have to see how Champion goes. Otherwise, given that my Debarrier is basically the same as your Shatter, I'm guess it uses the Death formula? Are you comfortable with it always healing Undead?

Does Magic Ruin still do 50% MP "damage"?

Yes, Shatter only works when the target has protect, shell, or is defending.  Otherwise it's 00% (think Raise, only... it's not).  Champion has a hefty MP cost attached to it.  I'm comfortable with it healing undead... its for the greater good imo.  And, yes, Magic Ruin is 50% MP damage.

QuoteHappy charge is gone! Mr. Green
snipe gets my vote for the killshot move's name

I like Sticky Bomb. I'm not sure what formula you're using for Fire Arrow, to be honest.

And, seriously, just call Execute "Snipe" or just something other than Execute if it can be used with a distance weapon. There's probably a better word than either of those for all weapons; Execute just really bugs me for some reason, at least when arrows are involved....

Heh.  Snipe it is then.  Fire Arrow uses formula 02 -- weapon strike with 25% spell cast.  There's a bug if this formula is used on someone rocking a gun, but ARH fixes this problem.

Quotepriest-
fine, remember there needs to be a reason to use pro/shell 2, smart targeting OR effect range increase get my vote

Not sure how I feel about Solace or any of the other O CTR abilities to be sure. Not much else to say.

The 2's are going to feature smart targetting and increased vert tol, for obviously more MP and increased CTR.

And solace is awesome!  I admit it cuts into Item's monopoly/niche, but that's also half of the point.

QuoteWizard-
are the differences between the nukes going to be so pronounced that you'd cast bolt on an ice-weak foe?
double magic is gonna be fun to play with.

I don't really like the idea of Double Magic, to be honest, especially with Move MP Up. It's basically giving you a more controllable (magic) Mime. What "beneficial" spells are we talking about here?

No, the differences are far more subtle (like <10% between the schools).  In general a wizard will still be able to plow through with a single school if so desired, but the changes will give him options should he have the choice available.  

And regarding beneficial spells, pretty much anything out of the Time and White magics (except Quick.) -- so stuff like cures and hastes assuming the reaction triggers and the wizard has sufficient MP.  Considering the current Counter Magic is used only in specific fights, this boon with beneficial spells should hopefully elevate it to a more general-usage reaction.

Quotemonk-
are you planning on re-doing damage formulas for punch arts? without martial arts boost they tend to be incredibly weak( 10 hp chakra and 2 dmg wave fist weak)

really I'm against removing innate martial arts altogether, the martial arts/attack up martial arts/equip armor combos(what I'm assuming you're trying to avoid) are really the main reasons to be a main class monk considering the massive penalties you take from having to keep both hand slots free(shields, elemental weapons, weapon guard)

I'm guessing Monks PA has been buffed if they're losing innate Martial Arts? I find it rather odd that they're losing innate Martial Arts but Martial Arts is still available to generics.

It's removed more to avoid endgame brokenness, since equipping martial arts prevents equipping two hands/attack up and 999'ing everything to death.  Many of the punch arts are seeing an increase in power to compensate, martial arts will be 0 JP on unlock, and Monks will have the single highest PA multiplier among the generics.  They'll still be rather lethal with martial arts equipped, but they will be squishier -- which is OK given their power and versatility.  

Quotelancer-
Crying or Very Sad Crying or Very Sad Crying or Very Sad

Oh don't be so sad.  While airborne a unit's status don't tick off.  For example a lancer with haste will land with around 60CT (instead of 50CT), and his haste will last for 50% longer than anyone else's provided he's still midair.  THE MORE YOU KNOW.



Well I wanted to expand their skillset for a little more status infliction instead of just pure thievery.  Last Laugh, as noted, is only usable when the unit is down into critical so it should be fine.  Equip Clothes imo is as well, if you think Equip Armor is okay.  It'll let the heavy armors downgrade their HP for some stats or elemental protection or something.  Twist Headband + Power Sleeve Lancers... what could possibly go wrong? >_>

QuoteBlue mage-
will need to play it

I'm guessing Bio 3 can be obtained from more than just Queklain?

Yes, Bio3 is available in a random battle in... Yuguo Woods and the Melt/Tornado/Quake folk are found in randoms of their original maps in case you miss them the first time around.



Well, silence song is already rather fast and AoE, but Quell is useful when even that small CTR is too large or the target is immune to silence.  Foxbird got nixed because of Zodiacs mostly because I want their reactions to come into play and disabling their reactions makes me a sad panda -- thus the only method for both CT00 and Br lowering are in Talk Skill, meaning I can just employ Finger Guard while keeping those functions present.  Countdown being in a separate skillset from Expire is quite intentional, but I suppose Petrify could get axed/moved?

Quotemediator-
assuming my comments about reactions are not possible/desired, would like the brave- skills to be stronger.  really I wish there were statuses comparative to faith/innocent for brave.

Kind of surprised you went with both 1.3 skills and keeping both Invite and Persuade.

Perhaps -15 for the lowerers?  I don't want to reach 20 because of random Brave units entering the battle with sub-50 brave and getting promptly Chickened.  At 15 that's minimum 3 actions to Chicken people which is much more acceptable.  

Besides, they lost... Negotiate (!) and Death Sentence.  Invite is quite powerful as both an opener or a catch-all Thievery tool, and with the ASM hack in place it's X + MA*2 instead of X+MA.  Persuade actually got a small coeffecient boost, too.  

Quotegeomancer-
not sure what you mean:

Haven't decided on which ones are going to be which yet?

Ah, I see I must clarify.  One third of the elemental abilities are going to be PA-based, one third will be MA-based, and the remaining third will be PA and MA based.  Don't worry, I did a decent spread - especially with the more common ones so each of these panels should be present on most maps.  The in-game text when you're clicking on terrain will denote what type it is so there's no need to have a notepad at your side :).  And the best part is that the AI is fully aware of this and will step onto the higher damaging panels to kill off people.  This is a perfect example of what this patch is trying to accomplish.  

Quotesamurai-
blade grasp is overpowered with brave modifying enabled , nix it for players unless you can nerf it considerably frontal only, edge weapon only, reduced boost-25% of brave added, not sure how but it's incredibly powerful as is

Oh, so this is the one class that has tri-directional attacks (besides Blue Mage). I should have figured.

Outside of that, I suppose I have to thank you for nerfing the damage from Two Hands. I do, however, have to ask you why the hell you would bring Blade Grasp back. What would it be nerfed too?

There's a hack available that makes it only work against sharp, 1-range weapons (ie, less than half of the weapon classes), which may just be enough.  Also summoner got some tri-directional loving too.

Quoteninja-
if two swords is unlearnable, not too sure about the need to cripple ninja PA, just take them off flails.  daggers/ninja swords are weak enough that just a slight-moderate PA loss should be sufficient.  put them on par with chemist before equipping attack up

Nothing to say here, really.

While its true that ninja weaponry is PA/Sp based and thus a bit weaker than the normal counterparts, a ninja with the Equip Meleeset or martial arts support still shouldn't be rocking absurd damage.  

Quoteberserker-
have to play it

Not sure how I feel about Focus. Everything else seems okay (and I'm not just saying that because, besides Heartbreaker, these are my ideas), though I'd have to say that Jump +3 is pretty pointless when Lancer has Ignore Height.

True about the jump thing.  I could just as well axe it and I don't think a single tear would be shed.  Focus has some nasty potential, but it's really no worse than two hands for fighters or Magic Attack Up for direct casters.  

Quotetime mage-
expire requires death sentence right? then fine

Not sure how I feel about Time Mages keeping Meteor, but otherwise it's okay. Nice to see they got Fly since it makes sense, even if it's something that would go equally well on Blue Mage (if you got them later).

Yes, expires requires death sentence status :p.  Meteor... has a nasty charge time and MP cost at least.

Quotesummoner-
not to keen on dumb targeting summons(always seems to me that that is summoners #1 calling card, all smart targets) but i can adjust, leave them in.
recommend changing move-mp+ from wizard to here or blue mage,  little too powerful to be a starter class ability and move-hp+ is on a secondary(monk)

I have to that I don't like there are "dumb" targeting spells, though I'd probably be able to stand a bit more if BOTH Fire weren't "dumb". Otherwise, meh. I'll have to see how the tri-directional thing works before I comment on it further.

With the changes to movement and range, I expect to see a lot more clustering occur, which would then just be free reign to summon everything into oblivion without recourse.  So... a lot of the summons went into linear or tri-directional while half of the standard AoE ones lost smart targetting to prevent being oh-so clever.  It seems a bit out of place, but the current options are flat out remove them and leave the standard AoE with smart targetting around and with a large MP cost to couple with it, or have them stay around in and useable as openers or attacking the fringe or something.  

QuoteLike Monks, I'm guessing Mimes have gotten more PA to compensate for Martial Arts, yes? Otherwise, I can get behind these innates (though I'd rather Double Magic just be plain old Counter Magic).

Nope.  I think concentrate would be better over martial arts, monster talk a necessity, and then I've currently got 2 slots set for reaction.  If I were to make their reaction counter flood (which works against most actions, it's just that I find counter+counter magic more... mimey.) there would be space, but alas.  They don't need additional PA since its fine on all other mime-y applications aside from their own attack, which is an emphasis that is welcome in my book.  

tl:dr

Suggestion for dagger-only skill?
Talk Skill Br/Fa reducers tweaked to -15 from -10?
Oracles lose petrify?
Summoners lose 2 of Ifrit/Salamander/Bahamut/Titan functions?  (ie, lose the dumb-targetting summons, shift remainder names to fit holes in element and lore?)

QuoteSuggestion for dagger-only skill?

speed slice - weaker damage but ignores reactions

QuoteTalk Skill Br/Fa reducers tweaked to -15 from -10?

with more thought, and the realization you're almost certainly gonna rework battles so I'd have to worry about it being used on me... yeah 15 is good

QuoteOracles lose petrify?

losing petrify is a good idea in itself, but expire as a replacement makes the yin/yang skill set too strong as a whole:
faith, mp recovery, health recovery/damage, a 2 cast death, mage-like mp/ma multipliers and sticks all on one class.

how about this: nix comet(time mages can use their wizard levels for damage) make expire the time magic 0ctr and give them countdown.  death sentence fits the time magic style better anyway. (at least in what passes for my mind)

kill petrify entirely... but really I can't think of a worthwhile replacement that would actually be codeable.

QuoteSummoners lose 2 of Ifrit/Salamander/Bahamut/Titan functions?  (ie, lose the dumb-targetting summons, shift remainder names to fit holes in element and lore?)

salamander and cyclops can go, make what is now cyclops named titan(cyclops isn't in any FF lore besides this game, they just needed another summon name) obviously bring over the earth element with the name.

er, reducers tweaked from 10 to 15*.  Heh.

Quotelosing petrify is a good idea in itself, but expire as a replacement makes the yin/yang skill set too strong as a whole:
faith, mp recovery, health recovery/damage, a 2 cast death, mage-like mp/ma multipliers and sticks all on one class.

how about this: nix comet(time mages can use their wizard levels for damage) make expire the time magic 0ctr and give them countdown.  death sentence fits the time magic style better anyway. (at least in what passes for my mind)

kill petrify entirely... but really I can't think of a worthwhile replacement that would actually be codeable.

I don't like having Time Magic's 0 CTR being a massive conditional like Expire.  Perhaps Comet isn't the answer (I kinda like a mini-meteor, certainly more fitting than a Demi variant) and while "Countdown" does admittedly sound more time mage-y, I'll sooner just rename it and keep it on Oracles instead of Petrify.  Hm.  Condemnation?  Judgement?  Damnation? Convict?  Banish? 

Expire and ?Death Sentence? should not be in the same skillset. 

Quotesalamander and cyclops can go,

Works for me.

Quote from: philsov on April 11, 2010, 05:39:25 pm

Quote from: Archer Spellbook??? - Weapon range attack inflicting stop
Leg Up - Self only, inflicts float at 100%.
Impact - Deals WP*PA damage and inflicts silence

Quote from: Savagery
Berserk - self-only berserk, haste, regen, and defending
Takedown - melee-range single target attack with recoil damage
Ground-Shaker - Self AoE of 2 dealing earth damage to everything in range (mimic titan for humans)

Quote from: SquireThroat Slit - dagger - attempts to inflict Death

Quote from: KnightChampion - Knight Sword only - HP draining weapon strike

Quote from: PriestSolace - Instant single target heal
Raise/Raise2
Holy

Quote from: WizardFrog
Death

Quote from: MonkSecret Fist

Quote from: ThiefSteal Heart - 3 range, inflicts charm
Last Laugh - Critical only - inflicts Poison, Silence, and Blind onto single target

Quote from: OracleCountdown - Death Sentence
Petrify

Quote from: MediatorInvite

Quote from: Time MageDon't Move
Demi (1 AoE, 33% HP damage) / Demi2 (0 AoE, 67% HP damage)
Expire (cancels Death Sentence, inflicts 100% HP damage)

Quote from: SummonerSalamander - 3 range 2 AoE dumb
Lich - 3 range 2 AoE 40% HP damage smart
Cyclops - 3 range 2 AoE straight damage, dumb (a little stronger than salamander)

All of these seem like they could be cut.  Specifically, two Demis and two Raises can easily become one Demi and one Raise, Impact is broke, possibly Nameless and Last stuff could be rather broke with flat Speed unless heavily debuffed, Ground-Shaker can easily just be Mimic Titan itself, Champion can easily just be damn Night Sword considering the difference is all of one panel tops, Frog is dumb, Mediator could probably stand to lose a few of the Statuses they inflict so that Oracle skillset has a reason to exist, etc.  I'd also argue that the "instant" Spells could just be the tier 1s of their respective Black and White schools for obvious reasons.

NOW YOU HAVE SPACE TO DO GOOD THINGS GET TO WORK.


@ The Damned, you should read FDC's hacking threads once in a while.

I'll do a more thorough overview later but these were somewhat obvious cuts that stood out.

I really should. I actually, I think I had read FDC's hacking thread, but that was just before I stopped working on the patch. I suppose it would indeed do well to re-read those things.

Anyway, for the sake of sanity (read: length), I'm just going address all three responses while replying directly to philsov:

Quote from: philsov on January 23, 2011, 06:15:43 pmYeah... I wanted some Dagger-exclusive move.  Throat slit seemed to work, but I'm open to other thoughts if they occur.

As I've said rather frequently (at least of late), I'm not really a fan of instant Death techniques, at least on PCs. You could make it Silence + Death Sentence, which would allow you to (perhaps greatly) up the hit rate and more "realistically" mimic actual throat slitting, since it's unfortunately not instant death.

Quote from: philsov on January 23, 2011, 06:15:43 pmRegarding cleave, yes, currently it's 75% with ~50% success rate, but suppose it might be better tweaked to do less damage but is a touch more reliable?

That seems like it would better, especially since now that I think about it, Cleave and Mutilate are basically the same thing, except that Goblins aren't as restricted in their access to the latter.

Quote from: philsov on January 23, 2011, 06:15:43 pmFlee... is there because the current tier-1 movements were Jump +1, Move Find Item, and Move HP Up.  Move +1 is generally better than Flee, and so I wanted Flee available before Move +1 did.

As I said, understandable.

Quote from: philsov on January 23, 2011, 06:15:43 pmElixir won't be available via poaching, at least -- I'm torn between lategame random battle trophies or lategame storyline trophies (ie, finite versus farmable).

IMO, it should be the latter if Elixir isn't available to the AI; the former if it is. 

Quote from: philsov on January 23, 2011, 06:15:43 pmShades of Grey is more a response to being able to inflict faith/innocent outside of the Oracle skillset, and since Item only really works as 100% infliction, I figure 50/50 shot is a lot better than blammo 100% Faith.

Oh, I wasn't really saying I disliked it or anything, just noting that we did pretty much everything same Item-wise (up until yesterday) outside of Elixir, Shade of Grey and the consolidation of the status items.

Quote from: philsov on January 23, 2011, 06:15:43 pmAs for the cleanseables, it's pretty much identical to vanilla.  Holy Water is Petrify, Undead, Blood Suck, while Remedy is Petrify, Darkness, Confusion, Silence, Oil, Frog, Poison, Sleep.

I...see. Remedy seems like it still heals a bit too much, especially with the random HP gain as well. Is it or Holy Water supposed to cure Petrify?

Quote from: philsov on January 23, 2011, 06:15:43 pmOh!  Forgot to mention it.  On success with remedy/holy water the target is healed for randomly between 1 and 150 HP.  With the other two main cleansers being AoE I thought Item needed the perk.

I'd disagree, but like Monks, I hate Chemists and it's not broken, so I'll just say that and won't bother pushing it unless it ends up being OP or something.

Quote from: philsov on January 23, 2011, 06:15:43 pmYes, Shatter only works when the target has protect, shell, or is defending.  Otherwise it's 00% (think Raise, only... it's not).  Champion has a hefty MP cost attached to it.  I'm comfortable with it healing undead... its for the greater good imo.  And, yes, Magic Ruin is 50% MP damage.

Very well then.

Raven does make a point with regards to Champion and Night Sword. Is there are marked difference between the two?

Quote from: philsov on January 23, 2011, 06:15:43 pmHeh.  Snipe it is then.  Fire Arrow uses formula 02 -- weapon strike with 25% spell cast.  There's a bug if this formula is used on someone rocking a gun, but ARH fixes this problem.

Oh, right. I forgot about the formula since I haven't touched a formula in forever outside of revising a few things (really) early this morning.

Quote from: philsov on January 23, 2011, 06:15:43 pmThe 2's are going to feature smart targetting and increased vert tol, for obviously more MP and increased CTR.

Not sure that's going to be enough, but very well.

Quote from: philsov on January 23, 2011, 06:15:43 pmAnd solace is awesome!  I admit it cuts into Item's monopoly/niche, but that's also half of the point.

Oh, I wasn't weeping for Chemists. I meant what I said: I'm weary of it, but I'll wait until I see it in action/use it myself before I attempt to make any concrete judgments on it.

Quote from: philsov on January 23, 2011, 06:15:43 pmAnd regarding beneficial spells, pretty much anything out of the Time and White magics (except Quick.) -- so stuff like cures and hastes assuming the reaction triggers and the wizard has sufficient MP.  Considering the current Counter Magic is used only in specific fights, this boon with beneficial spells should hopefully elevate it to a more general-usage reaction.

For the record, I really don't like that, but if you feel it's better, then I can't and won't stop you. If it ends up being overpowered like I think it will be, then it will eventually prove itself to be so.

Quote from: philsov on January 23, 2011, 06:15:43 pmIt's removed more to avoid endgame brokenness, since equipping martial arts prevents equipping two hands/attack up and 999'ing everything to death.  Many of the punch arts are seeing an increase in power to compensate, martial arts will be 0 JP on unlock, and Monks will have the single highest PA multiplier among the generics.  They'll still be rather lethal with martial arts equipped, but they will be squishier -- which is OK given their power and versatility.

Fair enough.

However, does this mean you found a way to allow Monks to actually equip Martial Arts as a support? Because, like the Ninja slot and Two Swords, they can't equip it even if they don't have it innately.

Quote from: philsov on January 23, 2011, 06:15:43 pmYes, Bio3 is available in a random battle in... Yuguo Woods and the Melt/Tornado/Quake folk are found in randoms of their original maps in case you miss them the first time around.

First time around?

Quote from: philsov on January 23, 2011, 06:15:43 pmWell, silence song is already rather fast and AoE, but Quell is useful when even that small CTR is too large or the target is immune to silence.

Fair enough. I still want to see how it works out, though.

Quote from: philsov on January 23, 2011, 06:15:43 pmFoxbird got nixed because of Zodiacs mostly because I want their reactions to come into play and disabling their reactions makes me a sad panda -- thus the only method for both CT00 and Br lowering are in Talk Skill, meaning I can just employ Finger Guard while keeping those functions present.

An interesting point. Even though this wasn't addressed to me, I'll take note of it.

Quote from: philsov on January 23, 2011, 06:15:43 pmCountdown being in a separate skillset from Expire is quite intentional, but I suppose Petrify could get axed/moved?

Petrify will probably getting axed if it gets moved since the only other class that I think it fits (at least in your hack) is Time Mage, but given that you're extremely reluctant to even give them Countdown alongside Expire, I don't see why you would give them Break. (Did you make Expire 100% hit or something? Why so reluctant when you gave let them keep Meteor and buffed Demi 2?)

Quote from: philsov on January 23, 2011, 06:15:43 pmPerhaps -15 for the lowerers?  I don't want to reach 20 because of random Brave units entering the battle with sub-50 brave and getting promptly Chickened.  At 15 that's minimum 3 actions to Chicken people which is much more acceptable.

That sounds about correct.

Quote from: philsov on January 23, 2011, 06:15:43 pmAh, I see I must clarify.  One third of the elemental abilities are going to be PA-based, one third will be MA-based, and the remaining third will be PA and MA based.  Don't worry, I did a decent spread - especially with the more common ones so each of these panels should be present on most maps.  The in-game text when you're clicking on terrain will denote what type it is so there's no need to have a notepad at your side :).  And the best part is that the AI is fully aware of this and will step onto the higher damaging panels to kill off people.  This is a perfect example of what this patch is trying to accomplish.

So I take that means you have decided on which ones are using which formula then? Because that's really all I was personally asking.

Quote from: philsov on January 23, 2011, 06:15:43 pmThere's a hack available that makes it only work against sharp, 1-range weapons (ie, less than half of the weapon classes), which may just be enough.

That might still be too much depending on how prevalent "sharp" weapons still are. I mean, given that you're focusing on ASMs, last I remember you didn't overhaul (or, rather, completely change) any weapons completely, so there are still a hell of a lot swords (and other blades and such).

Quote from: philsov on January 23, 2011, 06:15:43 pmTrue about the jump thing.  I could just as well axe it and I don't think a single tear would be shed.  Focus has some nasty potential, but it's really no worse than two hands for fighters or Magic Attack Up for direct casters.

Fair enough point.

Quote from: philsov on January 23, 2011, 06:15:43 pmWith the changes to movement and range, I expect to see a lot more clustering occur, which would then just be free reign to summon everything into oblivion without recourse.  So... a lot of the summons went into linear or tri-directional while half of the standard AoE ones lost smart targetting to prevent being oh-so clever.  It seems a bit out of place, but the current options are flat out remove them and leave the standard AoE with smart targetting around and with a large MP cost to couple with it, or have them stay around in and useable as openers or attacking the fringe or something.

I suppose that's a point. You could also make it not follow the target, too though.

Outside of that, I don't really have much of a problem with dumb versus smart casting, I just don't understand why both Fire-elemental summons are "dumb". It seems like Ifrit should be "smart" and Salamander should be "dumb" or vice versa if you're going to have two of the same elemental still.

I rather agree with Raven that Cyclops and Lich can die, though I've been kind of hating on Lich lately so I can only say that I'm unbiased when it comes towards Cyclops getting removed.

Quote from: philsov on January 23, 2011, 06:15:43 pmNope.  I think concentrate would be better over martial arts, monster talk a necessity, and then I've currently got 2 slots set for reaction.  If I were to make their reaction counter flood (which works against most actions, it's just that I find counter+counter magic more... mimey.) there would be space, but alas.  They don't need additional PA since its fine on all other mime-y applications aside from their own attack, which is an emphasis that is welcome in my book.

Understandable.


As for what could possibly get removed, here's where I agree with Raven:

• Impact - It seems like it would be OP.


• Ground Shaker - I still say they could just take Mimic Titan; hell you could take that free skill. Hell, you could even just take Earth Slash from Monk and give it to Berserker instead of this now that I think about it.


• Throat Slit - I already said how I could picture it being re-worked if you want a Knife-based death-dealing technique.


• Champion - If it's not that different from Night Sword.


• Raise 2 - If it's still 100% HP.


• Death - It really just needs to die.


• Secret Fist - Monks don't need this.


• Invite - Even understanding why you're keeping it now, it still seems like a crutch to me.


• Demi 2 - While it would be nice to see this get some use, I think it's a bit much and Demi 2 isn't really necessary and it's one less percentage spell to have to worry about with regards to the Lucavi.


• Lich - Also not necessary AND it's yet another percentage spell to not have to worry about with regards to the Lucavi.


• Cyclops - Doesn't do anything special. No reason to use this compared to Bahamut outside of probably costing less MP from what you've told us.

I similarly have to agree that Nameless Song, Nameless Dance and Last Dance might need to be nerfed, but I don't think they need to be start up removed like Cheer Song, Slow Dance and Last Dance.

Outside of that, I'd personally say that you could probably get away with removing Protect 2, Shell 2, Haste 2 and Slow 2 in addition to the above. That might just be me, though.

QuoteNOW YOU HAVE SPACE TO DO GOOD THINGS GET TO WORK.

THERE ARE NO MORE GOOD THINGS TO DO.  I CAN BLOAT?

Bosses are fine, specials are fine, generics are fine (except maybe ninja, throw might get hit too hard with the speed curve thing), monsters are fine.  The only thing left to do is ADD DELICIOUS, SUCCULENT STICKS OF BUTTER INTO EVERYTHING. 

I strongly disagree with the thief sentiment, lightly disagree with several others, and agree on a few, but to what end?

Quote from: philsov on January 24, 2011, 10:44:11 am
THERE ARE NO MORE GOOD THINGS TO DO.  I CAN BLOAT?

Bosses are fine, specials are fine, generics are fine (except maybe ninja, throw might get hit too hard with the speed curve thing), monsters are fine.

Says the man who gut an entire Special class because he was running out of room.  If memory serves, Ninjas get ~9 Speed naturally and have access to two pieces of +SP gear, so Throw does kinda suck since the range is based on Move and that also got raped pretty hard.  Throw would be better as a Support skill if you want to mess with the Generic Skillset Hack and make it work.

Quote from: philsov on January 24, 2011, 10:44:11 am
The only thing left to do is ADD DELICIOUS, SUCCULENT STICKS OF BUTTER INTO EVERYTHING. 

I strongly disagree with the thief sentiment, lightly disagree with several others, and agree on a few, but to what end?

Removing unnecessary skills gives each class more focus and stops the AI from spending JP on Stupid Shit (tm).  You can easily give the the same classes different skills that are less broke and/or have more reason to exist, make Beowulf into Beowulf again, possibly make Reis' primary set more worthwhile outside of dumb niches, etc.  Geomancer could arguably use a new primary set since you basically made Elemental even more random than it already was while leaving Elemental changes for the sake of Counter Flood, and a number of other things.

QuoteChampion and Night Sword. Is there are marked difference between the two?

Champion requires a Knight Sword is the big one, and then it costs more MP and has less range.

QuoteIf Double Magic ends up being overpowered like I think it will be, then it will eventually prove itself to be so. 

In-deed.

QuoteHowever, does this mean you found a way to allow Monks to actually equip Martial Arts as a support?

Some behind the curtains switcharoo.  This will mean that another generic class will be unable to equip Martial Arts (probably either Time Mage or Summoner) however. 

QuoteFirst time around?

Yeah.  The storyline fights will feature the characters that cast Quake/Tornado/Melt, but a variant of the fight will be available as a random.

QuoteDid you make Expire 100% hit or something? Why so reluctant when you gave let them keep Meteor and buffed Demi 2?

Pretty much.  The percentage to hit bit is rolled into Death Sentence, so having a chance to hit death sentence followed up by another chance to hit coup de grace to prevent one or two enemy actions is too much imo.  Having both of these in the same skillset is simply too convenient. 

QuoteSo I take that means you have decided on which ones are using which formula then? Because that's really all I was personally asking.

ah.  Yes, some time ago.

QuoteSays the man who gut an entire Special class because he was running out of room.

There was nothing really special about his abilities.  He was an Oracle on crack and required a sword to be thus.  Woooo.

QuoteRemoving unnecessary skills gives each class more focus and stops the AI from spending JP on Stupid Shit (tm).

Giving the priest only 1 raise ability instead of 2 does not increase its focus in the slightest.  JP is a non issue for a vast majority of the game thanks to custom skillsets. 

QuoteYou can easily give the the same classes different skills that are less broke and/or have more reason to exist, make Beowulf into Beowulf again, possibly make Reis' primary set more worthwhile outside of dumb niches, etc.  Geomancer could arguably use a new primary set since you basically made Elemental even more random than it already was while leaving Elemental changes for the sake of Counter Flood, and a number of other things.

Old Beowulf sucked anyways and giving him his old skillset back is a downgrade to his current form.  Reis' primary is already worthwhile between the elemental breaths and Holy Breath and her killer stats.  Elemental is no way more "random" unless you don't know how to press the select button and actually choose which terrain to step on.  It gained the ability to be carried by all classes and brings in an emphasis on unit placement. 

The "stop arrow" is already gone, leg up is staying, Impact is broken because of the damage or the silence inflict?, Berserk is half the damn point of the class (here let's remove haste from time mages), takedown is perfectly fine and fitting for the class, Mimic Titan is MA-based and thus has little reason to exist in that skillset, Throat Slit is welcoming suggestions, champion response is above, solace is fine, two ranks of raise is fine, priests losing Holy is outright laughable, frog and death can go - frankly, secret fist is fitting for the monk, no way is thief going to be reduced to just stealing stuff, Oracle is fine with either one of petrify or death sentence, Invite because this isn't Fire Emblem and replacing people from level 1 sucks -- we'll see how it plays out in lategame with the new formula and go from there, Don't Move was already half planned thanks to Archers, 2 ranks of Demi is fine, expire is fine, and the 3 summons are probably going to get cut (moreso the dumb targets, Lich being around in no way makes the summoner class lose focus, and if I can differentiate between that and the demi's theres no reason to remove it).

Impact - Silence, 100% Silence = Essentially Auto Kill Mages Yay.  The huge sum of HP damage is gravy on top of sealing 5+ skillsets entirely and sometimes making units completely irrelevant until status heal or death without exception at best, and that's only assuming you make Silence disappear on death.

Berserk - It's like Ramza's Scream of 100% Berserk, Haste, Innocent in 1.3.  No matter how much it's "the point of the damn set", it's a horrible skill that no one will use unless you already have complete control of the fight and can risk not only having no control over your unit but also giving them horrible AI for nothing but a damage boost, at which point you don't even need the skill to begin with and it loses all reason to exist.

Holy - If you stop thinking "Well it's a Priest and White Magic it has to have Holy derp" and begin thinking "Wait this is an entirely support-based magic skillset WHY THE FUCK DOES IT INCLUDE A LOVING LONG RANGE 100% ACCURATE NUKE SKILL" you'll see why I mentioned it.  I don't know about you, but I can also think of probably 100 instances where the AI needs to be supporting its comrades and instead decides to go "OH I CAN KILL THIS WITH HOLY DERP" only to get a fist to the face and die, meaning it's both an unfitting skill that detracts the class' focus and a skill that sabotages the AI since the Priest's role is rarely to kill things.

Mimic Titan and Ground-Shaker - make Mimic Titan PA based and problem solved?

Secret Fist - not seeing how "fitting" is "a negative status move in a skillset of physical damage and tight-ranged physical support."

It's hard to reply to much else since "is fine" is such an ambiguous statement and doesn't actually answer the posit of "Is two ranks of this skill needed for the class to function properly?" or "Is this skill needed for the class to function in the way I intend?"

As for Secret Fist not fitting on Monks, for my tabletop, I changed the Ninja class to having all Dark Elemental attacks, including Secret Fist. I also gave them a psuedo throw move, an Line of Sight Teleport move, HP and MP Drain moves, an HP slice move, a knockback attack, an (The Damned won't like this) insta kill move, and a plain old Dark Damage attack.

I tried to turn Throw into a support, but it seemed too complex to fit into one support. Although yesterday, I came up with a new idea for a Throw Support. Just have it add a command that Throws your extra copies of the weapon or weapons you have equipped. I don't think that can be done for you guys though.

I rather agree with Raven about Impact, Mimic Titan/Ground-Shaker and Secret Fist. I believe that "Berserk" could be (more) decent if Berserk can be hacked and made finite (or if you enable reactions while Berserked). While he makes a decent point about Holy, I'm pretty biased about keeping it around, so I don't know, maybe make it less of a "nuke"?

*shrugs*

Quote from: Dokurider on January 25, 2011, 03:09:57 pmI tried to turn Throw into a support, but it seemed too complex to fit into one support. Although yesterday, I came up with a new idea for a Throw Support. Just have it add a command that Throws your extra copies of the weapon or weapons you have equipped. I don't think that can be done for you guys though.

How is it complex?  The range is either Move or Move x 2 depending on what ranges you have available, damage is straight weapon element WP * SP like it is normally or a variation thereof pending SP totals, and Throwable Items are anything in that lone player's Inventory since I assume Equipment is in a D&D like style where players don't share by default but can give each other stuff.  I don't see how implementing this into a Tabletop would be hard - if you're not overthinking it, it seems abysmally easy.

Well for one, it didn't help that my original idea for a Throw support was badly thought out. It was originally too complex to be a support, but now it's not the case.

Secondly, my tabletop is not a conversion. It's a straight port. Everything is pretty much equivalent to the original game mechanically speaking. The D&D convert has been done already.

Thirdly, just because I can do it, doesn't mean I should. Simplicity and faithfulness to the original game is the law of the land. That's why I'm having nightmares over Line of Sight. Every time I think about it...*shudders*

Quote from: Dokurider on January 25, 2011, 03:45:25 pmThirdly, just because I can do it, doesn't mean I should. Simplicity and faithfulness to the original game is the law of the land. That's why I'm having nightmares over Line of Sight. Every time I think about it...*shudders*

Says the guy who just described his completely not-FFT Ninja and who at one point developed several overwrought and unfaithful mechanics before I whapped him a few times.

Making Throw a Support skill keeps it in play though, and options are good since it's essentially an instant low-to-mid damage ranged skill(set?) that goes over your ability to spec your character out some.  Considering Throw itself was in FFT originally, it's not really a lack of faithfulness - it's finding a way to make your Ninja have some depth without removing an option that was original in FFT itself.

@ The Damned - the main problem is "converting" Holy in a feasible way.  It could be a Tier-2 Holy Element single target spell with lower range and evadable, but then it both doesn't have the oomph to justify that ridiculously long animation and really doesn't remedy the conflict going on - just weakens Holy itself.  I would be tempted to move Holy onto Wizard (despite the conceptual conflict) or, my preference, make it a skill unique to High Priests such as Zalmo who already have an offensive element to them since it's a giant fuck off ball of Holy energy that every average Priest probably wouldn't have access to.

QuoteSays the guy who just described his completely not-FFT Ninja and who at one point developed several overwrought and unfaithful mechanics before I whapped him a few times.

Making Throw a Support skill keeps it in play though, and options are good since it's essentially an instant low-to-mid damage ranged skill(set?) that goes over your ability to spec your character out some.  Considering Throw itself was in FFT originally, it's not really a lack of faithfulness - it's finding a way to make your Ninja have some depth without removing an option that was original in FFT itself.

Wait, what? Just to be clear, I agree with you. I was just explaining that my original idea was so bad, that it caused me to change it back to a skillset for a while.

QuoteImpact - Silence, 100% Silence = Essentially Auto Kill Mages Yay.

No one on these boards has ever called Silence Song broken.  At 70 on 70 faith, it has a 93% success rate. with AoE.  And a shorter charge time than Impact.  Vanilla Silf boasts 78% under the same circumstances with 2 AoE.  100% single target isn't too far from either of these, and it's broken?

~

Yes, units under berserk can still react.  

QuoteI can also think of probably 100 instances where the AI needs to be supporting its comrades and instead decides to go "OH I CAN KILL THIS WITH HOLY DERP"

Are you suggesting that I should give all enemy priests Item secondary?  Because I assure you if they lose holy but have any other secondary but Item the exact same scenario will gloriously still occur.  

QuoteMimic Titan and Ground-Shaker - make Mimic Titan PA based and problem solved?

Nah, because then the difference between Bull melee and Bull mimic titan will be too small, with mimic titan being the optimal action a vast majority of the time.

Quote"Wait this is an entirely support-based magic skillset.  "a negative status move in a skillset of physical damage and tight-ranged physical support."

Because you're falsely labeling them as thus.  It's just wizard-did-it handwaving that anyone can muster and warp.  White Magic is a mostly support-based magic skillset that also features a single powerful spell with which to smite people.  There.  Now Holy makes sense.  Should I perhaps give Monk more negative status to expand its definition to be "physical damage and point-blank support and negative status infliction"?  

QuoteIt's hard to reply to much else since "is fine" is such an ambiguous statement and doesn't actually answer the posit of "Is two ranks of this skill needed for the class to function properly?" or "Is this skill needed for the class to function in the way I intend?"

Every single skillset can be reduced to somewhere between 2 to 6 skills and still function properly and within design intention.  No, two ranks of Demi aren't needed.  One rank of demi isn't even needed.  I can give Time Mages Haste, Slow, Quick, and Float and call it a day with my puritanical definitions.  Priests can be reduced to 2 cure spells, protect, shell, and raise.  Wizard can have one spell from each element that strongly differs from each other, and then flare.  Knight can lose all equipment breaks except Weapon break and then be declared to focus on "reducing the offensive abilities of enemies".  Thief, then, loses steal Weapon and any negative status infliction and walks around with a 4-ability skillset devoted to taking the enemy's defensive items.  Like... 33% of all generic abilities are actually needed, and even then sometimes it doesn't matter what exactly gets cut - monk can randomly lose any 2 of its 4 punchy skills and still be workable.  

But I'm not going to be doing any of that nonsense.  

So, yes, 2 ranks of Raise are within the intended role for Priest.  And Time Mages with 2 ranks of demi are welcome to increase Time Mage functionality.  There is no reason to remove either of them.  The player can choose if (s)he wants to do a quick, cheap, reliable rez at 50% HP or have a delayed, expensive, potentially failing rez at 100%.  Why should I simplify the game and prevent strategical decisions from occurring?  If there was a need for additional ability slots I'd be more inclined to actually do something about this, but as it is there's simply no point.  

QuoteAs for Secret Fist not fitting on Monks, for my tabletop, I changed the Ninja class to having all Dark Elemental attacks, including Secret Fist. I also gave them a psuedo throw move, an Line of Sight Teleport move, HP and MP Drain moves, an HP slice move, a knockback attack, an (The Damned won't like this) insta kill move, and a plain old Dark Damage attack.

Excellent ideas for a ninja skillset should that occur. Thanks!

Quote from: philsov on January 25, 2011, 07:27:59 pm
No one on these boards has ever called Silence Song broken.  At 70 on 70 faith, it has a 93% success rate. with AoE.  And a shorter charge time than Impact.  Vanilla Silf boasts 78% under the same circumstances with 2 AoE.  100% single target isn't too far from either of these, and it's broken?

If I couldn't just walk up to those mages and eat through them like paper in either Vanilla or 1.3, yes.  70 v 70 doesn't happen enough for that comparison to work, though - 70 v 60 or 70 v 55 is more realistic due to random AI Faiths.  I'm operating under the assumption I can't just walk up to a mage in ASM'd and eat it like delicious nommy paper.  If I can, then obviously Impact isn't a problem, but that's just because mages suck so much in terms of damage that in any situation I would be in range for Impact I can just kill them horribly instead, but that itself seems like a pretty bad design choice.

Quote from: philsov on January 25, 2011, 07:27:59 pmAre you suggesting that I should give all enemy priests Item secondary?  Because I assure you if they lose holy but have any other secondary but Item the exact same scenario will gloriously still occur.

Yin-Yang Magic, Time Magic partially, Basic Skill partially, Item, Perform,  and a few others.  Downgrading Holy damage-wise makes it happen far less often, my point dissenting about that was that it's still not really focused.

Quote from: philsov on January 25, 2011, 07:27:59 pmNah, because then the difference between Bull melee and Bull mimic titan will be too small, with mimic titan being the optimal action a vast majority of the time.

Make Mimic Titan use the Monk formula so it's weaker than basic melee but hits a large area? 

Quote from: philsov on January 25, 2011, 07:27:59 pmSo, yes, 2 ranks of Raise are within the intended role for Priest.  And Time Mages with 2 ranks of demi are welcome to increase Time Mage functionality.  There is no reason to remove either of them.  The player can choose if (s)he wants to do a quick, cheap, reliable rez at 50% HP or have a delayed, expensive, potentially failing rez at 100%.  Why should I simplify the game and prevent strategical decisions from occurring?  If there was a need for additional ability slots I'd be more inclined to actually do something about this, but as it is there's simply no point.

Intense swooshing is occurring here, so whatever.

Never mind.  My head hurts at this point.

kay.

QuoteMake Mimic Titan use the Monk formula so it's weaker than basic melee but hits a large area?

Then it becomes a wider area Wave Around.  If I'm seriously strapped for slots I may still do it, but current open count is... 10, so current plan is to keep mimic titan as MA-based for damage difference funsies.

~

For Damned, ye olde 0 JP list.  I thought I had posted it somewhere else but my search fu is weaksauce it seems.

OK, so... Alma hack.  For those of you not "in the know", this will allow myself and others to assign item-like attributes to any ability, including RSM.  Additionally I can create passive, permanent perks on having certain abilities just flat out learned or getting up to job level X.  I don't have much interest in the current form of passive permanent perks but being able to do this to RSM makes me very pleased.  In short, I can have either a positive or negative to HP/MP/Sp/PA/MA in either absolutes or percentages (+100 HP, or -10% MA, for example), or assign status initial/cancel/always and/or elemental half/absorb/etc.  

Thus, the goal is two-pronged for RSM -- boost the low-hangers, while nerfing the really awesome ones.

So...

first off, the list.  



And then sorted into the "perk me" "as is" and "omg nerf me" groups, with some potential changes.  Note -- these are additional attributes along with whatever these normally do.  On review I can setup a few to better provide random status immunity, but taking suggestions and critiques on the current mesh.

Reactions


Support:



Movements:

I'm not planning on using ALMA at present, so take everything in this post with (more of) a grain of salt (than usual).

That said, these changes look pretty good, especially given you didn't overhaul equipment or skills all that massively from what I remember off the top of my head; I have too many windows to open something else right now.

Here are the thing I've the most opinion on right now:

• What would you do if you "blanked" something?
  
  
• I'm not really comfortable with the Initial status thing, though I suppose those three are like the least offensive things to start with as far as positive statuses go. And, hell, if it encourages other people to actually use Dispel Magic, then why the hell not? (Outside of wanting to give them to bosses and/or certain monsters.)
  
  
• I'm not sure that Gilgame Heart can be saved. I've been thinking about it and given that it isn't a Support, you can't even turn it into "Gillionare" like you can with Secret Hunt. Then again, I'm not whether ALMA will even allow you to multiple Gil gains once battle ends and it's not like it'd be that useful of an ability. What's annoying, though, is that going the opposite direction and turning into some "Blood Money" or "Bribe" type ability where you get to ignore (even only certain) attacks would just be broken, even with limitations like a Gil count or only working on humans ala Hamedo.
  
  
• The HP gain to Meatbone Slash seemed slightly counter-inituitive to me for some reason, but I guess I was just having a brainfart. Of all the weak reactions with changes, I like that one the best now.
  
  
• Absorb Used MP can probably benefit from some X+% MP type boost like Meatbone Slash with its HP boost.
  
  
• Catch seems like it can either be immune Stop or immune Slow. Not both, though.
  
  
• Distribute's absorption seems a bit...random to be honest, but I guess it's fine. You haven't changed Distribute to count self-healing, correct?
  
  
• I never thought I'd say this (except maybe to my patch, haha), but those changes to Finger Guard make it seem a bit...overpowered considering how debilitating just two of those statuses are. I guess I'm fine with it staying as is because it will still block positive talk...except for Preach, right? I mean, if you could make it block that too I'd say it'd be fine....
  
  
• I'd argue that Dragon Spirit and HP Restore need nerfing as well. If anything, it seems like HP Restore is the thing that drop your HP a bit. Might just be me, though.
  
  
• Damage Split I'd argue needs more of a nerf than that. Make it -10% HP, -100 EV% (if you can) IMO. If you want to do damage for getting hit, then get hit by fucking everything.
  
  
• Monster Skill becoming Warding doesn't sit right with me, but given how many new elemental things I have in my patch, that's probably my bias again.
  
  
• I'd say that Monster Talk should make you immune to Silence, but here's the problem: I'd imagine that, even with ALMA, you'd be giving these boosts to anything that has the changed RSM...even anything that already has it Innately. I'm all for giving Mediator an innate immunity to a status, but it seems a bit more to directly counter their biggest weakness, especially with the monster buff to Finger Guard. So, I'm honestly not sure (or, rather, less sure than I already am about everything).
  
  
• ...How the hell does Concentrate not need a nerf? I'm assuming this is a typo. Or am I just having imagined that you got rid of it completely begin with? Same with Martial Arts.
  
  
• Maintenance might need a buff I'd argue unless you made it block -stat debuffs as well. Maybe Immune: Death Sentence? It would fit without being able to be used against the AI.
  
  
• Two Hands and Two Swords being effectively changed like that make me laugh, though I concur (probably--I'm still not sure whether 1.5 is "enough" given what you're often giving up, but eh).
  
  
• As with Monster Talk, any changes to Any Ground seem like they would effect Geomancers. While I'm all for giving classes innate immunities, immunity to Earth alongside immunity to Poison seems a bit overpowered on a human, especially since your Geomancers are based off 1.3 ones IIRC. That means they absorb Fire as well as canceling Earth innately. That's a pretty damn big buff, especially since it further obviates Float.
  
  
• Any Weather, on the other hand, is a change I quite approve.
  
  
• I'd argue that Fly either needs nerf or Ignore Height needs a buff because Fly still completely obviates Ignore Height while even Move +1 isn't even completely obviated by Move +2 now.
  
  
• You honestly think Move-Get Jp is worth banning? I'm curious as to why given that I honestly thought it would end up on the "Perk Me" side.
  
  
• No buffs to Cannot Enter Water? Or did you just get rid of that entirely for monsters?
  
  
  
  Speaking of monsters, man, ALMA is going to make balancing them with RSMs a pain in the ass, but I suppose you didn't go nearly as overboard as I did.
  
  Outside of that list (that turned out being longer than before), I either have no opinion on other changes or I can't think of suggestions for things; hell, I can't even think of a suggestion for another battle despite having a lot more (definite) information to work with now.

1. With the Damage Output of Two Swords and Two Hands being reduced, is Two Swords going back to being fully accessible to all generic jobs? If so, are you worried about it outclassing Two Hands?

2. I agree with Concentrate needing a nerf. It should go from ignoring evasion entirely, to a mere 50% evasion reduction. Actually, how about you move Concentrate in it's current form to boss/Mustadio only, rename it Pierce, then take Gain EXP Up, turn it to 50% evasion reduction and rename it to Concentrate.

3. I'm starting to lose track of what's not possible anymore, so I'll just throw an idea out there. Rock Skin: Gain great physical prowess when not wearing any head or body pieces.

4. I'm gonna take a shot at balancing the banned reactions. How about -2 Speed for Blade Grasp/Hamedo? That way, it's unfeasible on big, powerful units that are already a bitch to take out.

5. Secret Hunt = Strengthen: Dark

6. +1 Speed/-1 Move?

Just a note that you still have to balance flails/staffs/poles/whatever else doesn't use straight PA formula with Two Swords/Two Hands. On the other hand, it neatly solves the Two Swords/barehanded problem - Two Swords gives PA weapons a 50% boost, fists a 12% boost.

I'll try and sort out the rest of ALMA/disablers as I understand it's hard to get moving with the hack half-done!

When something is "blanked" there's no effect to it.  With move +3, for example, I can just set it to be -3 Move and tack on any additional effect as desired.  There's a display bug with this exact ability (it'll always preview +3).
The initials do seem a bit strong, but remember these are being used over the other reaction abilities.  Waiting until after you're at below half health to have protect activate makes the whole bit less than ideal, imo.

There is no saving gilgame heart, I agree.  I can pump any manner of Alma goodness, but it would need to somehow jive with still getting cash on hit.  

Absorbed Used MP is a bit tricky.  I buffed MP Restore to trigger on any hit so it would be worth a damn, and of course in the process mades it superior to this in every way imaginable.  Giving passive MP really doesn't help in those regards.  Perhaps this one gains the silence immunity?  Which leaves Monster Talk still lacking....

Good call on Catch.

Distribute always struck me as a Zen-y type deal, where one lets stuff pass through them.  Absorb: Holy/Dark seemed to flow with this them.  Still doesn't work on self heals regretably, not can it have a 100% activate rate, and if either/both were possible there'd be no need to ALMA it, imo.

Finger Guard blocking the positive statii (that'd be... reraise and defend) is more fitting, though less powerful.  I'll probably change it to this.

HP Restore doesn't need nerfing, imo.  It has a rather small window to work, and then you've got to hope it triggers.  

Dragon Spirit on the other hand... could use a small punt.  Maybe -1 PA/MA?  Doesn't sound very fitting, but it might work.  

Damage Split can't gain Null: Evasion, regrettably.  Maybe a Speed decrease?  2 should suffice (with no HP loss)

Monster Skill/Warding - should work for a support, when compared to Def Up / MDU.  Mind, those two only drop damage by 33%, but the number of elemental versus not elemental sources is enough to jack up the protection some.  

Concentrate I'll cover in a moment.

Maintenance will be blocking stat debuffs.  (<3 Xif)  and it won't be innate on any generic class.

With any ground+lava -- they will not be innate to geomancers.  The lava innate was added when someone got the idea to put a move find item in the middle of the lava, so a character somehow had to have 2 movement abilities at the same time.  Because chemists are keeping move find item, and that's not getting anything done to it.  

Ignore Height/Fly - perhaps ignore height cancels:Wind?

Move Get JP is in the same boat as gained JP up, imo.  Only difference between the two (in vanilla) was access as it was squire vs. calc.  This patch will have it's fair share of player-leveled enemies, and while stuff like level 1 gang banging and JP sharing exploit are still possible I'd rather still prevent this aspect from occuring.  

Cannot enter water can be buffed, but I'm already at a loss for movement abilities so unless myself or someone else gets a blow of inspiration there's little point in mentioning it.  Atm monsters won't have it, namely because wet poaching is no longer a problem.

Regarding monster balancing... not really :).  I already have them set on stats, so if they're plugged with various stat modifiers I can just adjust them (meatboners lose 10/15 HPM, for example) to be where I'd still like em.

I'm not too concerned with Two Hands being outclassed.  Right now the biggest boon with two swords is the increased W.Ev and proc rate on the proccables, but I can possibly make two hands 20% reduction or something, even though it'll work out to identical or within 1 PA difference the majority of the time.

Blade Grasp and Hamedo -- I don't think 2 speed is enough.  With hamedo one negates an enemy attack AND counters (and it works against monsters, now) -- which is basically two actions in a reaction.  One action to heal oneself and then another to attack.  BG is one action of full evasion/self curing, but it's still a major AT imbalance. However, I can't very well set their SPM to -100% because then they'll never get a turn and sit on the back of the field wishing they were a statue in the middle of the field.  Initial: bad status won't mean much if you have a higher speed cleanser.  Always: blind and silence won't be enough either because then they can still be itembots.  Damage splitters at least need to wait until after they're hit to activate, but the pre-emptive nature of these two makes me a sad panda.

Secret Hunt boosting Dark is an idea.  I was thinking of something that'd boost Thieves, somehow.  Not that Str:Dark does that, but it'll have a certain niche that wasn't present before.  At the very least, there will be more monsters in storyline battles so it will still be useful sometimes for a real battle.

+1 Speed / -1 Move is a great idea for a movement ability.  But what in the world can it be named?

~

Concentrate is fine, imo.  Yes, even in this patch where everyone has innate weapon guard and 4-way class evasion.  The average unit will have between 10 and 30 evasion unless they're rocking a mantle and/or shield.  Unless all the units on the field have 50% or greater evasion, two swords/hands will still be better average damage output -- dealing 150% damage 75% of the time is better than doing 100% damage 100% of the time... usually.  IE, concentrate is a ~25% damage boost, while attack up is 33% and 2S/2H is 50%, but concentrate still has a place for it's execution abilities while attack up has synergy with many PA-based abilities.  Martial Arts isn't much different, either, with a 50% boost but only when barehanded (ie, no weapon evasion). The biggest problem with martial arts is that it is/was innate to Monks and thus can stack with attack up or other supports for fun twinkage.   And there's no code to reduce concentrate's effectiveness atm.

~

Poles are the only weapon class I'm concerned about with two hands synergy, and I don't want it to also do -25% MA just because of that.  Nor do I want them to no longer be 2h-able.  Hm.  Anyways, you've still got plenty of time, as I'm still banging my head on animations and effects so this is something we can stew on.  

(Ugh, I promised myself that I'd do something "special" for my 1000th post, so this will probably be my last post for a week. I'll try to make it good.)

• I guess we'll have to agree to disagree about Concentrate, especially since we're doing such different things. I mean, obviously, I still think it's a problem in your patch (or any), but if it is as such, as with the other thing (that I forget about at the moment), I'm sure it will eventually prove itself as such.
  
• I suppose so on the Initial stuff. Initial Regen just...bugs me for some reason, but I think I'm going off my patch where Regen status has been buffed beyond HP gain.
  
• Well, technically, in sticking with related abilities with regards to Gilgame Heart, you could give it Indra's Grace abilities what with magnetism and gold being so conductive of electricity and everything. Then again, I was thinking you could also probably just make an Absorb and Strengthen ability for at least all of Black Mages elements--I mean, you could pretty easily tack on Strengthen Fire to Move on Lava, especially given how often rainstorms happen. Of course, it would be weird for one of the abilities to be a Reaction and the other (two) to be Movement. So...yeah, it seems behind saving (at present).
  
• Immune: Silence on Absorb Used MP seems like it would be good. I'm rather unsure about Monster Talk, especially since Mediators HAVE to have it Innately, so it's not like it can be anything "great" even though it needs it.... Actually, given that I gave it to my Mediators, would giving Monster Talk innate immunity to Charm be a bit much?
  
• I suppose I see where you're going with Distribute, though in that case I don't see why it's not on Oracle then, especially since Oracle's have Life Drain to stay at full-life while being offensive.
  
• I actually think that Dragon Spirit would be the one that can stand to lose Speed so that the people that refuse to die don't revive so damn quickly/as much overall. Losing speed would still go with the theme of preserving life since it would slow down crystallization/treasure boxing as well as going with the draconic theme of Ivalican Dragons being lumbering, flightless beasts.
  
• Damage Split seems like it would need to lose HP and maybe be immune to everything MBarrier can do outside of Haste.
  
• Good to hear that about Maintenance and the Geomancer movements.
  
• Ignore Height having Cancel: Wind would probably be good...if you have/had that many Wind attacks. Didn't you not add any beyond what's already there? IIRC, off the top of my head, there are only four Wind attacks in the entire game originally: Kamaitachi, Gusty Wind, Wind Soul, Tornado. Given that generics have access to only two of those and there's only two pieces of equipment--Air Knife and Windslash Bow--still that even inflict Wind damage...yeah. Fly honestly seems like it needs to have -1 Move to not completely outclass Ignore Height, even with Cancel: Wind.
  
• Wet poaching? I'm not sure what you mean.
  
• Name the +1 Speed/-1 Move "Stalk" or something like that.
  
• While it's problematic, I don't see why you're concerned about Two-Handed Poles. While I can't see what classes you have the equip Poles, I'm assuming at most that there's only two other classes tops besides Oracle that can even Equip Poles innately and thus equip Two Hands.
  

Well that was lackluster.... Eh, maybe I'll think of something better within that coming week.

Don't worry too much about Hamedo/BG too much. It was just a half hearted shot at balancing. We'll live without those reactions.

As for +1 Speed/-1 Move, I was imagining a samurai, moving slowly but surely. His katana comes out in flash and is gone just as fast. Maybe that'll help.  

How about a support/reaction that leaves you at 0 Faith?

You mean like a "Robotic" support? It's an interesting idea (if basically just a glorified Auto-Innocent), but it kind of...utterly fucks over faith-based magic, which is hard enough to balance as it is. It's not like you lose anything from using it, either, what with Item already being the premiere revival skill and still having quite a bit of range. It's not like there's anything to punish you for either outside of Un-Truth, which is found on...one character, who is eventually on your side.

I'm not philsov, but it seems like quite the bad idea, at least given how faith-based magic is at present.

Speaking of lowish Brave or Faith, though, now I wonder if there's a way that you could make a Support or even a Reaction that benefits from you having lower rather than higher Brave. Hmmm....

QuoteSpeaking of lowish Brave or Faith, though, now I wonder if there's a way that you could make a Support or even a Reaction that benefits from you having lower rather than higher Brave. Hmmm....

yeah I brought up a similar idea on another patch(mando i think) of splitting reactions into two groups, defensive(auto-potion/regenerator/dragon spirit/etc) and offensive(counter/hamedo/counter flood/etc) and making the defensive 100-br for an activation rate.

never did hear whether that was even possible, but if it is I stand by it being a great idea.

as for innocent from a reaction, probably not a good idea.  though if you can find a way around it being a post-battle change as well, faith down(-5 or so) on magic hit actually wouldn't be that bad.

I just noticed something (a couple of hours ago): Does Quell actually cancel only Charging and not Performing as well? Is this intentional?

Quotewould giving Monster Talk innate immunity to Charm be a bit much?

In terms of balance, not really.  But just in general it feels more forced than the others.  Still something to consider.

QuoteI actually think that Dragon Spirit would be the one that can stand to lose Speed

I think that might be a bit much.  But perhaps initial reraise AND -1 Sp?  Might do the trick;  it'll be symetrical with all the other initials, but still have that penalty attached to it.

QuoteDamage Split seems like it would need to lose HP and maybe be immune to everything MBarrier can do outside of Haste.

Just protect and shell, maybe?  Since those directly impact damage taken.

QuoteDidn't you not add any wind beyond what's already there?

Birds get an Aero spell!  So... no, not really.  It's a very minor buff, but Fly losing 1 movement might be going to far.  Most classes have 2 base move, and so 1 range fly.... not very useful.

QuoteWet poaching? I'm not sure what you mean.

If a monster is in depth 2 water, and get poached, their corpse does not disappear.  So you're free to revive and poach until the cows come home.  This is has some nasty potential aside from why most of them were given innate cannot enter water in the first place, which is kind of silly.  

"Stalk" works, though, in both name and mechanic.

QuoteHow about a support/reaction that leaves you at 0 Faith?

Br/Fa modding isn't possible at this time.  Auto-Innocent does have the same effect, though.  Perhaps we can extend the "robotics" bit?  0 faith, immune to most status, but weak to all elements?  And then just make it Mustadio-exclusive?  In fact, if it's musty-only there may not be need to weaken to all elements.  

Quotenever did hear whether that was even possible, but if it is I stand by it being a great idea.

Good idea, but, yes, not possible atm.  

QuoteDoes Quell actually cancel only Charging and not Performing as well? Is this intentional?

Yes.  Was.  I'll bump it up to this, since it helps separate it from Silence Song.

Multi-quote battle!

Quote from: philsov on February 23, 2011, 01:12:03 pm
In terms of balance, not really.  But just in general it feels more forced than the others.  Still something to consider.

Yeah, I suppose I can see how it would feel more forced in your patch.

Quote from: philsov on February 23, 2011, 01:12:03 pmI think that might be a bit much.  But perhaps initial reraise AND -1 Sp?  Might do the trick;  it'll be symetrical [sic] with all the other initials, but still have that penalty attached to it.

Eh, I suppose. Is -1 Sp really that big of a deal in your patch though? I mean, I know you're already lowering speed (and I forgot, somehow, that you were lowering movement, so forget that Fly suggestion), but -1 Sp doesn't seem that huge, especially for a unit that will getting back up. Initial: Reraise seems like it's too much, especially since that benefits the player more than AI since players will go out of their way to revive units with Reraise to keep it on while the AI never will.

I mean, I "guess" it would work and I'm normally a fan of symmetry, but I'd be lying if I agreed more than begrudgingly about it. Still, it's your patch and ultimately your decision and it's not like it would break the game (just make it easier).

Quote from: philsov on February 23, 2011, 01:12:03 pmJust protect and shell, maybe?  Since those directly impact damage taken.

I suppose that would be enough, though Regen and Reraise impact damage taken as well, which is why I suggesting (besides just hating Damage Split).

Quote from: philsov on February 23, 2011, 01:12:03 pmBirds get an Aero spell!  So... no, not really.  It's a very minor buff, but Fly losing 1 movement might be going to far.  Most classes have 2 base move, and so 1 range fly.... not very useful.

Right. Hmm...then I'm really not sure then. Obviously Cancel: Wind still doesn't mean crap and giving Ignore Height +1 Move just obviates the new Move +1. So...yeah. Not sure.

QuoteIf a monster is in depth 2 water, and get poached, their corpse does not disappear.  So you're free to revive and poach until the cows come home.  This is has some nasty potential aside from why most of them were given innate cannot enter water in the first place, which is kind of silly.

Ah, more poaching stuff that I'm unaware of. Great. Damn depth 2 water.

Quote from: philsov on February 23, 2011, 01:12:03 pm"Stalk" works, though, in both name and mechanic.

Hurray!

Quote from: philsov on February 23, 2011, 01:12:03 pmBr/Fa modding isn't possible at this time.  Auto-Innocent does have the same effect, though.  Perhaps we can extend the "robotics" bit?  0 faith, immune to most status, but weak to all elements?  And then just make it Mustadio-exclusive?  In fact, if it's musty-only there may not be need to weaken to all elements.

Meh, I don't see why it would grant immunity to most status, that seems overkill even on a special character. Personally, I'd think that if you're giving it to the Mustard-man and trying to simulate Robotics, then 0 Faith, Immunity to Poison, Death Sentence & Dead, Resistance to Fire (for Oil) and Weakness to Lightning would be enough (and even then that would arguably be too much).

Quote from: philsov on February 23, 2011, 01:12:03 pm
Yes.  Was.  I'll bump it up to this, since it helps separate it from Silence Song.

Was? Uh...thanks, I suppose. It wasn't a huge deal to me and more that I was just curious.

Also, how does that separate now it from Silence Song? Because Quell stops Performer's Dance as well as Song as opposed to Silence Song just blocking only Performer's Song?

How about a support ability that increases effectiveness if attacking from behind?

Not to make it seem like I'm picking on your ideas, but doesn't that already happen with the way physical evasion and thus most physical attacks are set up? I might not be understanding what you mean, but that's what it sounds like, which sounds redundant.

I'd much rather see the opposite: A support ability that increased effectiveness from the front, then had decreasing effectiveness from the side and then back, like honor-based ability or something.

I'm not sure either would be possible, though, since apparently messing with in-battle stuff tends to be harder than a lot of other things.

Quote from: The Damned on February 26, 2011, 01:15:28 am
Not to make it seem like I'm picking on your ideas, but doesn't that already happen with the way physical evasion and thus most physical attacks are set up? I might not be understanding what you mean, but that's what it sounds like, which sounds redundant.

I'd much rather see the opposite: A support ability that increased effectiveness from the front, then had decreasing effectiveness from the side and then back, like honor-based ability or something.

Shit I keep forgetting to respond

You do more damage/success rates goes up if you attack from the back, you know, effectiveness.

Oh, so you meant that damage would increase from the back too then, I'm guessing. Well, that's not as redundant, but it still doesn't seem like it would be enough for a support. Maybe for a skill or two for like Thief and another class (Ninja?) or something. Like a "Sneak Attack".

I'd really like some Support (or just SOMETHING) beyond Fury that rewarded lower Brave since using it for Move-Find Item is kind of stupid in most cases.

Quote from: The Damned on March 09, 2011, 05:05:19 pm
Oh, so you meant that damage would increase from the back too then, I'm guessing. Well, that's not as redundant, but it still doesn't seem like it would be enough for a support. Maybe for a skill or two for like Thief and another class (Ninja?) or something. Like a "Sneak Attack".

I'd really like some Support (or just SOMETHING) beyond Fury that rewarded lower Brave since using it for Move-Find Item is kind of stupid in most cases.

That'll work as well.