FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread

[Gaignun]

Thank you for the feedback, everybody.  I will try to provide a few responses.

spoiler: dw6561

Lay on Hands:
I found it difficult to make an unfaith raise because I would have to copy the faith/innocent routines, which yake up a lot of space.

Is it possible to give Lay on Hands a Brave formula, like Punch Art?

Regenerator:
This reaction triggers on countergrasp, not damage. Steals and such will trigger it. But I think it could be moved to another class if time mage gets more stuff, because time mage is already seeming to be very good.

Ah, so it triggers off of physical skills like Dragon Spirit.  Was this changed in 1.40?

In that case, Regenerator is best on a job with high HP and MP pools and access to shields.  Scholars have the HP and MP, but Time Mages have the shields.  If we ever make a tank mage that has all three, Regenerator would be a perfect reaction ability for it.

Also remember that we sometimes move things to other classes because they would be too good on that one class, aka to make them less easily accessible to a certain class. This is why we moved overwhelm to bard/dancer, because it was a bit too good as a grab and go for lancers. If we move something like 1/3 of mp to time mages, it might be a bit too much since they are already fast (11-12 SP without trying) and can cast haste/slow 2 at 1/3 the MP Cost.

That is fine by me.  With 1/3 of MP comes the huge opportunity cost of passing up on Short Charge and (Magic) Defense UP.  Accordingly, 1/3 of MP on Time Mages wouldn't be for Time Mages themselves.  It would be for supports who use Time Magic as a secondary, but don't have the MP to cast its skills consistently, like Thieves, Lancers, and Paladins.  Currently, these classes need to invest 250 JP to unlock Time Magic and an additional 250 JP to unlock 1/3 of MP on Summon Magic. That is very expensive for them.

The line of reasoning for separating a skill from its intended job on grounds of that skill being too good seems a little inharmonious to me.  If that is what we are after, then what is stopping us from giving Black Magic skills and/or Magic Attack UP to Thieves on the grounds that Wizards use those skills too well?

spoiler: Barren

What if we give time mage short charge and summoners keep 1/3 of MP?

My reasoning is that firstly, it gives the TMs and summoners their respective support abilities and would even out the JP cost. Secondly these changes should extenuate their strengths as a class. Time Mages are fast and with the proper setup with short charge they become efficient disrupt/support units. Summoners have a high MP pool and with 1/3 of MP you can add on some high HP equips to make up for their low HP. And with move-mp up and/or MP Switch summoners are more viable as casters.

That's just me. Feel free to disagree if you want, it's only a thought I had since I read Gaignun's post

That is also an option.  Then, the question becomes whether we want Time Magic users or spellcasting MP Switch users to save 250 JP when equipping 1/3 of MP.

spoiler: silentkaster

6. Only thing that I can agree with you on is Muramasa being a one hit "death" and it's only equippable by a class that has 3 move and not much ability to improve upon said move. Black Staff's Bio 3 I've always thought was meh, but it can be attractive I guess, especially if it procs Undead. But other than that, these weapons serve purposes. For example, Silver Bow is probably one of the bows that a Samurai could arguably be better with than the Archer and requires 70/70 to be used potentially well. Meteor Rod encourages 2S mages which also might need to be 70/70 and having just one is not a 1HKO.

So...IDK. Increasing proc chances could be alright, but I'd like to see them in action a bit more as they are and see if people avoid or want to select them.

I admit I am a little hasty in saying that the listed weapons are 1HKO weapons.  However, my point was and still is that the weapons are bad on mathematical grounds.  Here are a few simple calculations to support my claim. The plain numbers are maximum damage values; the bold numbers are expectation values.

Black Staff: Br(8*MA) + Fa(11*MA) (20% Cast: Bio 3)
[Br(8)+Fa(11)]*MA (20% Add: Zombie)
[Br(8)+Fa(2.2)]*MA (4% Add: Zombie)

White Staff: Br(10*MA) + 7*MA (20% Cast: Bizen Boat)
[Br(10)+7]*MA
[Br(10)+1.4]*MA

Meteor Rod: Br(8*MA) + Fa(12*MA) (20% Cast: Meteor)
[Br(8)+Fa(12)]*MA
[Br(8)+Fa(2.4)]*MA

Read the numbers like this: The average WP for Black Staff is 10.2, and you need to invest in Brave to get 8 of that and Faith to get the other 2.2.

At 20% chance, the three weapons go super-Holy (i.e., >16*MA), but on average they are all weaker than Rainbow Staff (Br(12)*MA), and that's assuming the staff user has matching Brave and Fury. (e.g., a Rainbow Staff at 70 Brave must be compared to a White Staff at 70 Brave and 70 Faith.)

Now you'd be fair to ask how the above weapons compare at 40 Brave and 70 Faith.  This is the most disadvantageous comparison for Rainbow Staff. Let's plug the numbers right in. If we substitute 0.75 for Br and 1.05 for Fa, we get

Black Staff:
17.6*MA
8.3*MA

White Staff:
14.5*MA
8.9*MA

Meteor Rod:
18.6*MA
8.5*MA

Meanwhile, Rainbow staff is 9*MA.  Rainbow Staff still wins.  Of course, all values are equally bad.  At 9*MA, you might as well use a Paladin with a 17 WP Chaos Blade. That beast has 17.9*PA at 70 Brave, and a killer proc that works 100% of the time.

Thus, I conclude that the above weapons are weak on average, and only have the power to put the enemy under pressure when their spells are auto-cast.  They are Hail Mary weapons that let you down 80% of the time, like the Death spell.

Now let's look at the elemental rods. Those are good weapon if I do say so myself.

Fire Rod = Br(10*MA) + UnBr(7*MA) (50% Cast: Nether Fire)
[13.7 + Br(3)]*MA
[8.6 + Br(3)]*MA
Ice Rod = Br(9*MA) + UnBr(8*MA) (50% Cast: Nether Ice)
[14.8 + Br(1)]*MA
[9.0 + Br(1)]*MA
Thunder Rod = Br(8*MA) + UnBr(9*MA) (50% Cast: Nether Bolt)
[15.9 - Br(1)]*MA
[9.3 - Br(1)]*MA

The expectation values of the elemental rods are similar to the first three; neither comes close to rivaling Rainbow Staff; in that respect the elemental rods are equally lousy.  But, each of these rods hits nearly as hard as Holy when their spells auto-cast. In other words, these weapons let you down only 50% of the time.

(Incidentally, we have just proved here that, of the elemental rods, Fire Rod is the strongest and Thunder Rod is the weakest when both their spells autocast and on average, at any Brave.)

4. Death- Would probably be okay with it being on Scholar, but not Oracle. I could see the new White Magic, Short Charge, Death Oracles running around and it makes me cringe.

I think that Death is too inaccurate to cringe over, but your point is fair.  Yin Yang Magic is already all over the meta, and if this change would make that worse, then let's give Death to a less popular job (that has reason to use it).

8. Balance- Not a fan of it going to Scholar, and I don't mind it remaining where it is as Time Magic is a good place for it, especially with Crit Quick remaining as a reaction in Time Magic. However, would be okay with it going to Oracle or (dare I say it?) Lancer as an ability besides Jump. (I expect nobody agrees with me here, but let's face it, you can't argue that the "Jump" skillset is the least diversified of every skill set.)

Then we could swap Critical Quick with Distribute at the same time. Balance would also works on Lancer provided we overhaul its skill set.  The important thing is that Balance needs to be on a job with a high HP pool.

Jobs-
1/2. What makes a Priest so attractive is the skillset, not the job itself. So if using a priest, I think that most people would be using it because they can get White Magic and decent MA. I don't mind them being four move, though I don't mind them being three move, either. However, I totally disagree on the Flails being transferred to Scholar (and while you didn't say that outright, you suggested it by using moves from their skillset). They can equip the Prismatic Rod and Poison Rod, both of which well outshine their respective flails and cover more ground. It's true that Priests don't get a lot of use out of them, but I guess it is there so that you can have a melee priest without having to buff PA too much. The four move at the moment complements this and I'm sure we'll see at least a couple people make priests like this.

Transferring Flails to Scholars on grounds that Scholars can use them better than Priests is precisely my point.  It is true that Prismatic Rod is better than the Flails, as well.  I'm just trying to find a good home for Flails.

As for Priests having 4 Move to use flails better, my argument that Priests shouldn't put themselves into the thick of battle (to use flails or otherwise) still stands.  Giving Priests +1 Move to use flails better is like giving Wizards +1 Move to use daggers better.  If somebody is intent on using flails for offense, they'll make a Ninja.  Ninja also have 4 Move and are equally squishy, but can equip twice as many flails at a time.  If we want single-handed flails to compete with Ninja, then I think we should provide a better incentive than giving the job extra MP to juggle physical offense with White Magic support.  I am not saying brandishing a flail while supporting with White Magic isn't impossible; rather, there must be a better way to go about this without jeapordising Priests' primary role.  Giving Priests Move -1 as suggested elsewhere is OK, even though it would kill the Movement slot options of support Priests.

3. Cannot agree here, either. Monks are great PA attackers but their equipment is limited. They can't equip a real weapon (bags which means if the AI derps and goes for a bag whack, and we've all seen it happen more than once, you might be losing a turn), they can't equip anything but bands and clothes (where real choices have to be made now) and because of these, it's a fine balance now making a monk. I would be more for lowering their base HP before touching their PA because while they are a good choice, and arguably the best choice, for many PA builds, they're simply not versatile enough to lower their PA in my opinion.

Honest, innocent question: What are 13 PA Monks without access to anything but Bags good for in the metagame?

spoiler: White Knight Wiegraf

Diamond/Platina Shield
By swapping "properties", are you referring to their evasion? It's probably slightly easier to adjust that than the absorb properties, as it doesn't involve taking away the shiny new palette that Platina Shield has.

Yeah, swapping evasion would achieve the same thing.  I didn't realize Platina Shield has a new palette!

N-Kai Armlet
+ HP is possible on an accessory, but not without using up unused body/head slots (which we have only 5 of left), or entering ALMA territory which is something we really want to avoid.

Is it possible to recycle head slots, such as giving N-Kai Armlet Chakra Band's +35 HP?  Or would all of Chakra Band's status immunities come with it? I suppose this depends on what N-Kai Armlet points to in memory.

spoiler: CT5Holy

Hey Gaignun, hate to trouble you, but I believe a while back you posted a potential rework of Punch Art such that its damage wouldn't be quadratic -> Punch Art becomes more accessible to non-Monks. Do you happen to remember your proposal? Obviously, without Punch Art receiving some sort of buff, Monks won't be too happy about going below 12 base PA.

Sure.  I still have the graphic on my computer. I will attach it to this post. Back when I first posted this graphic, I proposed to drop Monks' PA to 12.  This formula change keeps Punch Art damage consistent following this drop.

Finally, as for the most recent discord discussion,

Removing crits/knockback: Knockback is stupid fun, but I won't mind if it disappears.
Moving Ruin skills elsewhere: They certainly don't find much love on Thieves, but I think they are equally unattractive anywhere else.  We'll need to think carefully about this.
P Bag inheriting Rune Blade's properties: If we are reluctant to use further weapon slots, then sure.


Punch Art, Spin Fist
Current: (PA/2)*PA
Nonlinear: [(PA+2)/2]*PA
Linear: PA*10

[dw6561]

My bad, regenerator really does trigger on HP Damage according to the wiki. I don't think anything was changed, so I was mistaken. Was probably thinking about Piety when Emmy pointed out to me I was wrong in my ASM thread. Sorry for the confusion lol.

Also, yeah we wouldn't go that far with the RSM relocation. It also has to be useful for the class we put it on as well as classes that will use the secondary. Maybe putting 1/3 of MP on time mage wouldn't be as bad as I thought, and I'm just overthinking things. But yeah, they are already a very solid class as is, and I would stray away from giving them too much stuff that would be useful for them. Shields + 9 SP are already a huge boon, and I can see the other caster classes being neglected (especially scholar, which we nerfed to the ground) due to this.

[Gaignun]

Ah, gotcha.  So Piety has countergrasp, then?

By the way, there's a wiki?

[silentkaster]

spoiler: silentkaster

I admit I am a little hasty in saying that the listed weapons are 1HKO weapons.  However, my point was and still is that the weapons are bad on mathematical grounds.  Here are a few simple calculations to support my claim. The plain numbers are maximum damage values; the bold numbers are expectation values.

Black Staff: Br(8*MA) + Fa(11*MA) (20% Cast: Bio 3)
[Br(8)+Fa(11)]*MA (20% Add: Zombie)
[Br(8)+Fa(2.2)]*MA (4% Add: Zombie)

White Staff: Br(10*MA) + 7*MA (20% Cast: Bizen Boat)
[Br(10)+7]*MA
[Br(10)+1.4]*MA

Meteor Rod: Br(8*MA) + Fa(12*MA) (20% Cast: Meteor)
[Br(8)+Fa(12)]*MA
[Br(8)+Fa(2.4)]*MA

Read the numbers like this: The average WP for Black Staff is 10.2, and you need to invest in Brave to get 8 of that and Faith to get the other 2.2.

At 20% chance, the three weapons go super-Holy (i.e., >16*MA), but on average they are all weaker than Rainbow Staff (Br(12)*MA), and that's assuming the staff user has matching Brave and Fury. (e.g., a Rainbow Staff at 70 Brave must be compared to a White Staff at 70 Brave and 70 Faith.)

Now you'd be fair to ask how the above weapons compare at 40 Brave and 70 Faith.  This is the most disadvantageous comparison for Rainbow Staff. Let's plug the numbers right in. If we substitute 0.75 for Br and 1.05 for Fa, we get

Black Staff:
17.6*MA
8.3*MA

White Staff:
14.5*MA
8.9*MA

Meteor Rod:
18.6*MA
8.5*MA

Meanwhile, Rainbow staff is 9*MA.  Rainbow Staff still wins.  Of course, all values are equally bad.  At 9*MA, you might as well use a Paladin with a 17 WP Chaos Blade. That beast has 17.9*PA at 70 Brave, and a killer proc that works 100% of the time.

Thus, I conclude that the above weapons are weak on average, and only have the power to put the enemy under pressure when their spells are auto-cast.  They are Hail Mary weapons that let you down 80% of the time, like the Death spell.

Now let's look at the elemental rods. Those are good weapon if I do say so myself.

Fire Rod = Br(10*MA) + UnBr(7*MA) (50% Cast: Nether Fire)
[13.7 + Br(3)]*MA
[8.6 + Br(3)]*MA
Ice Rod = Br(9*MA) + UnBr(8*MA) (50% Cast: Nether Ice)
[14.8 + Br(1)]*MA
[9.0 + Br(1)]*MA
Thunder Rod = Br(8*MA) + UnBr(9*MA) (50% Cast: Nether Bolt)
[15.9 - Br(1)]*MA
[9.3 - Br(1)]*MA

The expectation values of the elemental rods are similar to the first three; neither comes close to rivaling Rainbow Staff; in that respect the elemental rods are equally lousy.  But, each of these rods hits nearly as hard as Holy when their spells auto-cast. In other words, these weapons let you down only 50% of the time.

(Incidentally, we have just proved here that, of the elemental rods, Fire Rod is the strongest and Thunder Rod is the weakest when both their spells autocast and on average, at any Brave.)

I think that Death is too inaccurate to cringe over, but your point is fair.  Yin Yang Magic is already all over the meta, and if this change would make that worse, then let's give Death to a less popular job (that has reason to use it).

Then we could swap Critical Quick with Distribute at the same time. Balance would also works on Lancer provided we overhaul its skill set.  The important thing is that Balance needs to be on a job with a high HP pool.

Transferring Flails to Scholars on grounds that Scholars can use them better than Priests is precisely my point.  It is true that Prismatic Rod is better than the Flails, as well.  I'm just trying to find a good home for Flails.

As for Priests having 4 Move to use flails better, my argument that Priests shouldn't put themselves into the thick of battle (to use flails or otherwise) still stands.  Giving Priests +1 Move to use flails better is like giving Wizards +1 Move to use daggers better.  If somebody is intent on using flails for offense, they'll make a Ninja.  Ninja also have 4 Move and are equally squishy, but can equip twice as many flails at a time.  If we want single-handed flails to compete with Ninja, then I think we should provide a better incentive than giving the job extra MP to juggle physical offense with White Magic support.  I am not saying brandishing a flail while supporting with White Magic isn't impossible; rather, there must be a better way to go about this without jeapordising Priests' primary role.  Giving Priests Move -1 as suggested elsewhere is OK, even though it would kill the Movement slot options of support Priests.

Honest, innocent question: What are 13 PA Monks without access to anything but Bags good for in the metagame?

spoiler: Response to Gaignun

With the computer I'm on when I write from work, the formatting tools don't work so they all have to be typed manually and/or copy pasted so I'll just respond to your points on a numbered system.

1. I think your arguments more pointed out, at least to me, that the Rainbow Staff is a bit overpowered more than I see the other staffs underpowered. To be honest, I'm not even convinced of that as I think the "proc" weapons are a bit of a gamble and I'm okay with that. The Rainbow Staff is more consistent, but may not have the potential to one shot whereas these weapons will not either most of the time but when you do get lucky, you get very lucky. A rainbow staff whack may never one shot someone whereas a Meteor Rod whack will usually not, but at least has the opportunity to do so. (Note that I'm not mentioning critical hits as I wrote the word "never" because both weapons would have equal ability to do so which should negate one weapon's advantage over the other in this, crit shot only, comparison.) Thinking more about the elemental rods, it actually kind of saddens me since they proc Nether spells. These prevent the weapon being utilized effectively since in order to proc, you'd want low brave, but for the whack damage, you want higher brave. I have to think about that a bit more as they don't go well with each other.

2. Distribute is almost useless on TM I'm afraid which would why I'd be against swapping it. The scholar, due to the Lore spells and the popularity with absorb, is probably the right home for distribute (perhaps Wizard too.) I actually really like Lancer getting it (again, I think I'm in the minority) though, but still like Time Magic having it as well. I know they can't use it the best, but it also doesn't have to be a OHKO for it to be effective. A 200-300 HP hit is still pretty noticeable, and with their higher speed, they can still make decent use of it (as skills that hit one panel generally need higher speed to be more effective.) IDK, this just might be a point we have to disagree on but see what other people have to say.

3. Well, I don't think Scholars get any use out of them was my point...I'd put them on TM before Scholar (and to be clear I wouldn't put them on TM either and I'm not suggesting that) because the Scholar has two pieces of equipment (Rods) that they can equip which means they never have use for any of the flails. I understand your point with the priest, but not all people need to build a team like that. For example, a SCC team with all priests might make use of them, or someone who wants a Melee unit, but also needs to have Supportive type stuff. Is it ideal? Maybe not, but it's there. You might argue that Priests have the Rainbow staff which is arguably better, but that might require MA stacking and if they want to equip things like the Green Beret or speed to make the priest able to get in the action easier, then the flails gain a bit more action.

I'm not totally against them losing Flails since they did gain books, but eh, would want something to replace them, and preferably a non MA weapon.

4. A lot. But it depends on the unit. Monks are probably the best at using their own skill set, tied only with Dancer in terms of being able to PA stack. But it becomes arguable when you look at other skills. For example, any of the Cross skills require Equip X which means they must now build for that in addition to losing Attack UP or Concentrate (with the barely notable exception that they want to bag Southern Cross). The tons, while they can couple with Attack Up or Concentrate, now sacrifice W-EV and S-EV and it might be more apt on a Squire, as well as having to choose between 108 Gems to strengthen or some other, more relevant, Accessory. (I won't go over all the different PA skill sets and such, but I think you get where I'm going.)

Also, Monks are already kinda meh on their skillset without Martial Arts as it renders all but Stigma Magic, Revive and Secret Fist (and I think it affects them too but on a much more miniscule scale) from their native skillset very weakened. This sacrifices a support slot to use their own skillset. Even with Attack UP, it just can't produce the same results MA can.

[Gaignun]

1. I think your arguments more pointed out, at least to me, that the Rainbow Staff is a bit overpowered more than I see the other staffs underpowered.

And yet Rainbow Staff is no better than Platinum Sword.

Thinking more about the elemental rods, it actually kind of saddens me since they proc Nether spells. These prevent the weapon being utilized effectively since in order to proc, you'd want low brave, but for the whack damage, you want higher brave. I have to think about that a bit more as they don't go well with each other.

I hope my calculations have helped out a bit.  As they are, the elemental rods are kind of like the sisters of guns/flails: the rods' damage is roughly independent of Brave, just as the guns/flails damage are independent of PA and MA.

2. Distribute is almost useless on TM I'm afraid which would why I'd be against swapping it. The scholar, due to the Lore spells and the popularity with absorb, is probably the right home for distribute (perhaps Wizard too.)

True, though it does not fare much better on Scholars, as I don't believe Distribute triggers on self-absorption.  Distribute would only work if you have two Scholars casting Lore on each other, at which point we're looking at a pretty niche team.  Still better than nothing.

I'm not totally against [Priests] losing Flails since they did gain books, but eh, would want something to replace them, and preferably a non MA weapon.

How about having Scholars and Priests swap flails and poles?  Poles are equally useable as PA weapons, and give Priests extra reach for melee attacks.  Perhaps the +1 Range of Poles could make up for reverting Priests to 3 Move, and Scholars could become the 4 Move mage (if that ever happens).

4. A lot. But it depends on the unit. Monks are probably the best at using their own skill set, tied only with Dancer in terms of being able to PA stack. But it becomes arguable when you look at other skills. For example, any of the Cross skills require Equip X which means they must now build for that in addition to losing Attack UP or Concentrate (with the barely notable exception that they want to bag Southern Cross). The tons, while they can couple with Attack Up or Concentrate, now sacrifice W-EV and S-EV and it might be more apt on a Squire, as well as having to choose between 108 Gems to strengthen or some other, more relevant, Accessory. (I won't go over all the different PA skill sets and such, but I think you get where I'm going.)

Also, Monks are already kinda meh on their skillset without Martial Arts as it renders all but Stigma Magic, Revive and Secret Fist (and I think it affects them too but on a much more miniscule scale) from their native skillset very weakened. This sacrifices a support slot to use their own skillset. Even with Attack UP, it just can't produce the same results MA can.

I would say that Monks and Dancers are the only classes that can use the top four skills of Punch Art.  Nevertheless, I wouldn't want to drop Monks' PA without buffing Punch Art, so no worries there.

As for the comparison between ton Monks and ton Squires, I believe Monks' higher HP, MP, SP, and access to Punch Art are well worth the loss of EV. By the numbers,

Monk (13+5 PA, 108 Gems, Attack UP):
30 effective PA, 335 HP, 98 MP, 9 SP, 10 P-EV, 0 M-EV, Poison/Sap immunity
Squire (10+8 PA, Kaiser Plate, Attack UP)
30 effective PA, 315 HP, 62 MP, 8 SP, 35 P-EV, 15 M-EV

For the cost of 25 P-EV and 15 M-EV, Monks get

• +20 HP


• +36 MP


• +1 SP


• Poison/Sap immunity


• the ability to restore their own MP with Chakra


• the ability to hit multiple units with Earth Slash and Spin Fist, etc.

The +1 SP boost alone is worth the price.  Just look at Swift Plate: 20 fewer P-EV and M-EV than Escutcheon II for +1 SP.

Dropping Monks to 12 base PA would drop their effective PA from 30 to 28, adding an extra cost of 2 PA for the above benefits.

Cross Monks getting nerfed is certainly true, but it is a price I would be willing to pay in exchange for making PA-based skills (like the new Jump) viable on other jobs without having Monks break them.

Edit: I think I am going to backpedal a bit on my Monk proposal for the moment.  Monks being the reigning ton user still stands, but a few sloppy calculations show that Monks are no better at Jumping than Lancers.  Time for another approach.

[Reks]

Edit: I think I am going to backpedal a bit on my Monk proposal for the moment.  Monks being the reigning ton user still stands, but a few sloppy calculations show that Monks are no better at Jumping than Lancers.  Time for another approach.

For damage purposes, Dancers are just as good now at Jumping with Overwhelm and a Ryotian Silk or a high WP Sword. They only jump slower, which can be covered. (granted, you gotta focus on Jumping with the Dancer, but most use them purely for their PA anyway.)

[silentkaster]

And yet Rainbow Staff is no better than Platinum Sword.

The top class on the male side is 10 PA that can use the platinum sword without a support. On the female side who can use Rainbow Staff, it's 11 MA. With the 2H, 2S support or Samurai with Equip Magegear, this weapon can wreak havoc. But I guess the platinum sword could too on a correctly designed unit.

While I see Dancer can use the PS with 12 PA, the 11 (and even 10) MA classes that can use the Rainbow Staff have skills in their primary skillset that can take advantage of added MA and/or movement that might be stacked. The Dancer does not (with the barely notable exceptions of Witch Hunt and Wiznaibus which gets boosted very small amounts comparatively with each stacking number.)

I actually always had an issue with Platinum Sword as it was just a weapon that was kinda "there." I think it at least has a place now on certain units like a support Geomancer or Paladin, but it's still not spectacular in my eyes. (Note that above 10 PA, a 2H Platinum Sword will deal more damage than a 2H Lionheart which I guess is something.)

On a side note, Berserk damage cannot be added to the Platinum Sword unless the unit is Always: Berserk. Rainbow Staff could get stronger with Berserk applied to the fighter in a fight.

True, though it does not fare much better on Scholars, as I don't believe Distribute triggers on self-absorption.  Distribute would only work if you have two Scholars casting Lore on each other, at which point we're looking at a pretty niche team.  Still better than nothing.

How about having Scholars and Priests swap flails and poles?  Poles are equally useable as PA weapons, and give Priests extra reach for melee attacks.  Perhaps the +1 Range of Poles could make up for reverting Priests to 3 Move, and Scholars could become the 4 Move mage (if that ever happens).

I would be okay with them swapping rods and flails. That's about it. Again, I'm definitely not okay with Priests giving Flails to Scholars (unless Scholars give up Rods) period. Scholars get nothing from this exchange and Priests just lose something. Even if it were another weapon that priests pick up from Scholars, it would be beneficial only to the Priest and not the Scholar if it's flails that are exchanged.

I would say that Monks and Dancers are the only classes that can use the top four skills of Punch Art.  Nevertheless, I wouldn't want to drop Monks' PA without buffing Punch Art, so no worries there.

I disagree. These skills can be built and played with...but I suppose that's really not here or there.

[Gaignun]

spoiler: silentkaster

The top class on the male side is 10 PA that can use the platinum sword without a support. On the female side who can use Rainbow Staff, it's 11 MA. With the 2H, 2S support or Samurai with Equip Magegear, this weapon can wreak havoc. But I guess the platinum sword could too on a correctly designed unit.

Well, it's certainly possible to get high damage with Rainbow Staff if you sacrifice your support skill slot.  That's not overpowered.  People trade the extra damage of Rainbow Staff for the use of other support skills, the range of a longbow, bonus PA/MA/SP, and reliable status procs all the time.  However, I don't foresee many people trading up the extra damage for... far less reliable damage.

I disagree. These [Punch Art] skills can be built and played with...but I suppose that's really not here or there.

Maybe it's because I've been away for awhile, but in my 5+ years of experience with FFTA I've never seen a successful team use the top four skills of Punch Art for primary offense on anything but a Monk or Dancer.  I would love to be shown it can be done.

Would somebody care to give an account for following changes in 1.40a?  These must have been debated on Discord, because they were not discussed anywhere on the forums as far as I can tell.

BASIC SKILL
- Yell: Lost MP Regen, 0 MP

YIN YANG MAGIC
- Blind --> "Douse": 4 range, 0 AoE, 4 CT, 12 MP, Hit_F(MA+65)%, M-Ev, reflectable, Adds: Darkness and Oil, CF and CM, 150 JP
- Blind Rage: Gained Darkness, 4 CT, Hit_F(MA+55)%

[Heroebal]

I have a geo on one of my beta test teams that uses the top 4 punch art skills pretty effectively, I think paladin (little less power tanky version), lancers (speed and/or power) or thieves (due to speed) can use those monk skills pretty well too. Also the nice thing about spin fist now is that it's smart targeting so pair it with 1 or 2 mimes and some pa stackage (sing or basic skill)........

*squires too^

[Andrew]

@Gaignun: I would favour the linear formula (PA*10) a lot more than what we have currently.  We should definitely make this a thing!  We came-up with the Yell, Blind, and Blind Rage changes during the Discord 1.40a suggestions discussion.

[Gaignun]

Linear Punch Art!  As linear as FFXIII.

Were any arguments made for the Yell, Douse, and Blind Rage changes?

[dw6561]

Yell lost MP Regen because the AI likes to spam yell until all 4 party members are hasted, which wastes a lot of turns. Having that be the ONLY direct way to add MP Regen sucks, so we moved it to regen instead. Fortuntately, the AI will now use Regen as a set up spell, so the change has an additional bonus too. Douse came to be because we wanted a skill that inflicts oil directly due to removing oil from Hawk's eye.

Blind rage was changed because Insult outclassed it, and also due to the punny "Blind" Rage  . However, I currently have a problem with this skill mainly because the AI can't cure berserk and darkness at the same time (except through Heal, which requires being adjacent). It's very potent, so the accuracy should probably either go down or the skill could return to the way it was before.

[Gaignun]

Ah, so MP Regen trips the AI into becoming a Yell bot? What status effect did MP Regen replace, by the way?  Also, could Yell spam be avoided if we give Yell HP Regen, as originally intended?

I am glad to hear you share my thoughts on Blind Rage. Like Silence, Blind is one of those status effects that cripples an entire type of unit (i.e., melee units), lasts forever, and is impossible to cure efficiently, since the AI prioritizes almost everything over curing Blind, including attacking with those Blinded units.  Before, the only way to reliably apply Blind was with Kiyomori, which also adds Poison.  The AI cures Poison well, so both ailments were usually healed together.  Now, Oracles can apply Blind with both Douse and Blind Rage.  In the case of Blind Rage, the AI can heal Berserk and only Berserk with Echo Grass, but will leave Blind be.

In a word, I think Blind Rage is currently OP. In the upcoming tournament, all melee units who face Yin Yang magicians and do not have Blind protection are going to be in real trouble.

My proposal would be to remove Add: Blind from Blind Rage.  Having one skill on Yin Yang magic add Blind is enough.  I think Douse is a great skill; it takes over Hawk's Eye, and most importantly the AI actually uses it. It is fine if Blind Rage is outclassed by Insult on average; in exchange, Blind Rage is affected by the Faith buff (which is now much easier to apply), sister skill Paralyze outclasses Blackmail, etc.

Edit: I notice in testing that Ninjutsu tons are now affected by P-EV.  Could this be corrected in the next patch?

[dw6561]

Its not the MP Regen, it's the haste. Yell is just an inherently bugged skill, doomed to be spammed until everyone is hasted. Anything we do to the skill is going to make this worse.

MP Regen is the blank status, and MP Poison in dark/evil looking.

[Andrew]

Edit: I notice in testing that Ninjutsu tons are now affected by P-EV.  Could this be corrected in the next patch?

I just tested the -tons in both 1.40a and 1.39c, and they are physical evade in both patches.  So, I guess that them being magic evade was just another old master guide error.  I'll update the spreadsheet image now.

[CT5Holy]

The original intent for the -tons was to be M-Evadable though =/

[Gaignun]

I just tested the -tons in both 1.40a and 1.39c, and they are physical evade in both patches.  So, I guess that them being magic evade was just another old master guide error.  I'll update the spreadsheet image now.

You're right, Andrew.  They were PEV-based in 1.39.  I think I reported it back then, too, then subsequently forgot about it.

The original intent for the -tons was to be M-Evadable though =/

Indeed  ):

[Reks]

After some thought: Even with the buffs to Ultima, it still feels like we're trying to make it underwhelming given that it's on Squire. It's easy to make it overpowered, yeah, but the fact that it's still 5 CT and on a somewhat low MA job doesn't give it the opportunity to really shine.

So a few alternative ideas: Make it PA based instead, so that it'll be the only true spell to use PA (the tons don't quite count), or give it something similar to the formula that poles use. That is, Max MA/PA *? (probably still 9).

Can this be seen as OP? Well, you'd see a few people try units stacked for PA (assuming 18) with Short Charge... But at most you'd probably only see damage around what would be Chiri for units stacked with MA (and Magic Attack UP) and STILL with a CT delay at that, though the smart targeting and unevadable nature would place it's desirability about = to Chiri.

I know in the past that people didn't really wanna touch Basic Skill because it's supposed to be "basic", but in a patch meant for balanced PvP combat, that concept feels silly because you're intentionally keeping something underpowered :v

[dw6561]

I would like for Ultima to become PA/MA based. The only PA based AoE we really have are cover fire and the two PA based draw outs, and I'd really like to see more. This would also help male squires out a bit seeing as how they have the same PA as a female squire has MA. We also don't have any skills like this currently and it would be pretty unique in that regard. I like the idea of basic skill being basic in that it can work with a wide variety of builds, and this change provides that kind of versatility.

If that's not ok with most people, I would also be ok with it becoming purely PA based. The advantage there is that formula is already coded and everything, so all we have to do is patcher up and go. It would be boosted by attack up in this case, so just be aware of that.

It's all about options, and I don't think either change would step on the toes of anything we have currently because it still has 5 CT and is relatively weak unless you stat stack.

Speaking of PA/MA based things, What does everyone think of making cure 4 PA/MA based? It would still be a faith based emergency heal, but would then work for PA based classes as well. White Magic Lancers/Monks/Archers come to mind. I don't think this would step on chakra because chakra is instant, AoE, and recovers MP which synergizes well with MP Switch. They are two different skills amd have different uses. Also you would have to equip white magic, so it wouldn't be good for all builds/teams.

[CT5Holy]

By making Ultima only hitting enemies, we took away it's biggest flaw, and yet it's still underwhelming? It does great damage that's Faith-independent. That's huge. Now the only worry is that it could get midcharged, but 1. that's something a lot of other spells have to deal with, and 2. no more redirects! I know I made that point already, but in 139 many Ultimas were redirected. Now it's just super solid damage. I fail to see how Ultima being on Basic Skill makes it underpowered. It's not! And on Basic Skill, you have access to Heal, which is one of the few ways to cure Stop, Berserk, and Oil.