FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread

[FFMaster]

Just a small correction. Haste is 25% speed bonus, 7/4 = 1 rounded down. So Effective Speed with Haste will be 8... That said, I am not completely against making 7 speed units.

I've already started considering nerfing Elemental a little. I would rather change it to ((PA+1)/2)*MA or ((PA+2)/2)*MA though. Elemental is still strong though, requiring no charging, good range, AoE and statii. As for the class itself, I'm not sure.

Talk Skill, I think can use a small increase in hit%. Mediator itself needs buffs to stats. I'm considering +1 MA and a bit of HP.

Chemists gaining speed is fine.

Hawk's Eye will likely go down to 3 CT. It really is useless.

Abandon... lol I'm not sure at all. It would help mages even more I guess. But from the battles right now, I think mages are pretty damn good. That extra range has helped dramatically.

[formerdeathcorps]

Talk Skill range +1 and/or different formula? Current formula demands high MA mage for decent reliability, and locks out low MA units from using it effectively.

This is partly the problem of using MA * 2 + adjusting down the Y values.

Instead of ((PA+4)/2)*MA, make it (PA/2)*MA instead. Max (or at least close to max) damage Geomancy would be at 120, and the Geomancy user would be fairly squishy, too (~275 HP). Squidgy's Squires as they are would do 100 instead of 140. Damage should be more manageable. Also keep in mind that these numbers are for units fully (or almost fully) optimized for Elemental.

Seriously, this doesn't seem too bad, especially when a bard or wizard with chiri or Kiku does more.  (Of course, Arena has overall lower damage and movement than 1.3, so geomancy is stronger since it didn't scale with the rest of the game.)  Factored for non-abandon evasion, though, geomancy is hardly better than draw out in damage, but geomancy has better range.  Thus, if you really must nerf it, lower its range to 4.
If anything, why is Squire (or Knight in S5's case) a better user of ELEMENTAL than geomancer?

Monk: Highest HP/PA with innate Martial Arts... 9 speed also? All at the cost of a hat, which'll be circumvented by Equip Armor, or a Ribbon/Cachusha.

It's stupid that strongest class in vanilla is still the strongest class (or tied for the strongest class what with Paladin) in Arena even after the changes, primarily because it's seem the least changes and has only really gotten buffs.

This is broken, but not because of the high base HP (which is offset by having no headgear).  It's also not really broken for having decent revivals/healings/anti-status (in each category, this is trumped by priest, except MP cost).  Rather, it's the crazy PA totals + the quadratic damage formulas.  Thus, we should change each monk damage formula to be linear, since only nerfing the Martial Arts' multiplier (or removing innate Martial Arts) doesn't stop A Save or (mimed) Battle Song abuse from scaling quadratically.  Once this is true (rendering PUNCH ART skills average without martial arts even when PA > 13), martial arts staying at 3/2x (or innate) would be fine.  Likewise, 7 base SPD is way too crippling, but 8 would be fine.

What are people's thoughts on increasing the range of most magic by 1? (Katon, Suiton, Raiton are obviously getting their range reduced) Offensive magic isn't too great - 40 Fa makes damage garbage, and at current ranges, it's easy for mages to be midcharged (no midcharge damage bonus is nice, but casters still die/get hurt -> sandbag mode etc). Offensive magic is essentially support - it's anti-sandbag/soften up enemies. It isn't too great at softening up units anyway though cause of 40 Faith. Buffed range would make magic even more of a support than a main source of damage, but mages could possibly squeeze in one more spell before dying.

If the problem is 40 faith proliferation + other tactics to haste/protect/reraise/quicken self, then why not install a faith floor?  We could even make some (or all) reactions dependent on faith (instead of Fury) to trigger.

I still say the best solution would be to use Xif's stat cap ASM. Much more easily balanced that way, IMO.

If this means no more Speed Save/quickening/A Save/BAttle Song abuse, I'm all for it.

If you bring back abandon, you should also bring back concentrate (at full 0% evasions across the board) as well.

[CT5Holy]

Someone mentioned changing Magicward to adding Shell and Regen instead of Shell and Reflect. Considering that Magicward hasn't been used yet, I think this would be a good change. Reflect likely makes one's own magic ineffective, since AI will usually use Magicward when they've been hurt a bit -> Reflect makes healing with magic impossible.

[Squidgy]

Bug: Magicward isn't mimicable.

[FFMaster]

Thanks for that. Fixed for next version. It is also stopped by Silence, so people know.

[Squidgy]

Also... New Angel Song costs mana.

So either the AI will run itself under 5 MP and be a total idiot, or Angel Song restores 5 less mana per song. Perhaps just lower the mp restore by 5? (or 10... or 15...)

[The Damned]

(Despite those both being potential issues, I'd rather see how the AI reacts to the new Angel Song before suggesting anything be done with it.)

Speaking of potential issues, having just seen something pointed out to me by Barren, I only now noticed that you increased MP Restore's JP cost from 400 JP to 550 JP. That seems a bit...excessive (despite me being one of the people who suggested it be either that or 500 JP), but more importantly, it isn't noted in the changelog.

Are there any other surprises that await us in this brave new world of 132?

Blind EDIT: Nevermind, I am apparently didn't see it in the 131 changes for some reason as CT5Holy pointed out. Weird. I could have sworn I read through all of those....

[Dol]

I didnt want to bring this up earlier since the only time it ever happened before yesterday were in matches against me and it would look like I was just bitter.  After seeing the new matches posted in addition to the earlier ones, it looks to me like Nameless Dance breaks the AI.

From all the matches I've watched with ND, it appears that the AI assumes that all of the statuses that ND can inflict will be applied the next time the dance goes off.  This makes the AI refuse to remove any of the status effects in place as well as influences what their next action will be based on when the next ND goes off.  Not immune to silence?  The AI assumes it will be silenced on the next ND and wont cast any spells.  Your stopped Paladin is going to remain that way regardless of what status recovery you have on your team because the AI assumes he will be restopped in a few CT.

I think that this would need some further testing at the least.  I would happily be proven wrong, but from what I've been seeing, this is an issue that definitely needs to be addressed.

[The Damned]

(I'm kinda seeing what Dol is talking about it, but I just thought it was the AI being stupid. I wouldn't really be surprised, though, considering Nameless Song.)

Speaking of recent battles, I'm almost entirely certain now that Auto Potion just isn't working. It's never gone off on anyone as of yet and it's had quite a few chances. If it was just me, then I'd just chalk it up to my usually horrendous luck with...everything, but I'm fairly certain it's just not acting like it should.

It's difficult to tell if this is because of the recent HP boost or if it's always had problems since I don't recall anyone using it (anytime in the recent past).

Somewhat more predictably, it seems like initial Transparent makes the AI act dumb still. I wish there was someway to get around that....

Speaking of initial Transparent, I don't think it was noted that Hidden Knives no longer actually add Speed because if they're supposed to still, they don't. Going to have change that Hirosu team more than I already figured I would because of this.

[FFMaster]

Well, the few times the unit with Auto-Potion got attacked, he had some statii like Don't Act on him, which removes the ability to use reactions.

And yes, Hidden Knife isn't adding speed like it should.

EDIT: Auto-Potion isn't going off. No idea why, guess I have to investigate.

EDIT2: Does anyone know what the last version had a working Auto Potion?

[RavenOfRazgriz]

You apparently also forgot Echo Grass, both on the Memory Card Generator and on the Chemist's Ability List, according to Mando.

Sucks because I just gave it to my Chemists to counter Nameless Dance spam.

[Malroth]

Question are hawks eye and coverfire affected by fury?

[RavenOfRazgriz]

Another random thing I noticed helping Malroth with the Memory Card Generator: Mad Science is missing from it, but I've seen it used in matches so I assume it's present in the game?

EDIT:  Apparently it's missing from their skillset too, when I opened up Arena 1.32 to test a few things.  Also, Darkness has absolutely no effect from what I can tell, at least on my units with 0 A-EV.

[Dol]

I'm pretty sure that Frog (the black magic) is broken.  I put it on a unit in the only way the AI will use it (by giving it a choice of casting Frog or standing still), and it chose to stand still 100% of the time.  It either needs to be fixed a la AutoPotion or just removed completely.

[formerdeathcorps]

Can we boost Paladins by 20 HP and/or 1 PA?  They currently are the weakest armored class.  Their skillset is hardly better than jump and they are outclassed in stats by lancer and arguably samurai as well.

[Wiz]

I second fdc's suggestion. I'd argue 2 PA so they compete with monks a little bit better

[RavenOfRazgriz]

Gotta go with more HP.  Every other armored class is already offensively oriented, herpaberp.

[Wiz]

That's true, but Knights also have the same amount of PA to an Archer/Lancer whilst 1 point lower in speed, which means they're put out of commission. There's really no reason to pick them of the other two I listed offensively; Their Skillset's not as good as breaking things nor sniping people from afar.

[RavenOfRazgriz]

That's true, but Knights also have the same amount of PA to an Archer/Lancer whilst 1 point lower in speed, which means they're put out of commission. There's really no reason to pick them of the other two I listed offensively; Their Skillset's not as good as breaking things nor sniping people from afar.

...And all of this is why I suggested going with the defensive option.  Their entire skillset isn't offensive in any way.  It's a defensive tank.  Iron Will and Magicward are obvious, Grand Cross is a harder-to-use Night Sword, Transfusion and Nurse heal.  Their only purely-offensive skill is Dia... and it's not even based on a stat they're terrible with (MA) and requires high Faith, something they'll only want if relying on Faith for allied buffs.  Hence, buff their defense, let them be proper tanks.  That's what the class wants to be, and like we both just said, we have no need for offense - Lancer covers offensive PA / armored unit role, Samurai covers both offensive PA / armored and MA / armored unit role, and Archer covers the Vanilla Knight's "Break shit" / debuff unit role.  There's no reason to give them more PA.  There's no demand for a powerful armored unit, and the class doesn't want to be a powerful armored unit.  Everything about Arena's needs and the class' skillset says both a defensive armor class is needed and that the class wants to be a defensive armored class, so just let it be one, give it more HP and let other classes beat it in either PA or Speed, because everything about the Paladin says it should be picked because you want something durable, not powerful.

[formerdeathcorps]

The class is whatever you make it to be.  There's no point in arguing what "it wants".

That being said, I don't see why we can't have both.  175 base HP + 11 PA wouldn't cause Paladin to be broken because Paladin's skillset is pathetic.
Furthermore, I don't think we should force specialization too hard on any given class.  It's relatively harder in Arena (compared to 1.3) to make good hybrid units.  I know a lot of metagamers who think that idea is stupid, but if you look at the units who placed well in S5, they were precisely the switch hitters on each team that could grant advantages against multiple team types.  Thus, giving the option for a Paladin capable of offense and defense would actually fill some gaps in Arena as well.