FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread

[FFMaster]

[Squidgy]

About reactions: If possible I suggest some based on Faith, some flat chance. Phys units can drop faith to 40 and not lose anything, but magic units drop their fury to survive longer, and also lose out on their reaction (unless it's Abandon). If it's possible to make caster reactions (like Counter Magic, Absorb Used MP...) Faith based, it'd be a good boost to casters... And generic boost or generic defense reactions (like Speed Save, Damage Split, Auto-Potion...) could be flat chance.

If that's too crazy, flat chance for all would be a nice change, assuming you can make the chance different for each reaction. Speed Save could be down around 35%... Auto-Potion 100%... Wha'cha think?

[FFMaster]

Either suggestion would take up a lot of time and ASM space. Personally, I think that dropping Faith too low for physical units is more of a hindrance. No access to good revival and Haste does hurt quite a bit. Yell is a good alternative, but is single target. Right now, I think mages could run the show with Flare/Level 4 magic casters. Without the hindrance of 50% damage bonus while charging, they can probably live without Short Charge. But we shall see.

[Squidgy]

My Black Magic team is quite potent... I haven't tested summons since the buff awhile back... and I should try out Oracle more, and Scholar is used a ton for stats, so its magic will be tested too, naturally.

[The Damned]

I guess that means I should try out a magic team sooner than later.

Speaking of magic, though, I have to ask why Float goes its JP increased? Is it because of Iron Boots? I honestly thought it was mediocre even with those given how many Monks forgo Earth Slash, Summoners forgo Titan and Samurai are stupid when it comes to Kikuichimoji.

[FFMaster]

I see it as a utility for a load of things. Immune to earth, water doesn't affect you, +1 height (high ground > lower ground =p), no falling damage and walk over lava, all rolled into one movement ability. Pretty strong if you ask me.

By the way... I was thinking, instead of Iron Boots, how about a Movement ability to make move 0? I'm fairly sure it can be done, just not sure how the AI will act with it.

[The Damned]

Higher ground isn't always a better, but given that most people weren't used Spears since they kind of sucked, that didn't really come into play. Same with lava and falling damage. I'll grant you the other things, but, if that's the case, then why is Fly still the same JP? It's not a huge deal with either way, I was merely wondering why.

As for Iron Boots vs. Move 0, it's something to consider. However, I'd rather see how non-recurring Lore acts with Iron Boots first, though.

[pokeytax]

Throw Stone is pretty strong. I laughed hard at the absurd Monk team but figured it was just Martial Arts + Battle Song, but I tossed it on my Grand Cross knights as an afterthought and they spend most of their time two-shotting people with Concentrated rocks. Concentrate + ranged physical is brutal here just like S4 Throw.

Even without Holy-elemental, weapon-elemental Grand Cross is very powerful on an absorb team, instant splash healing/damage. Houkouton and Jutsus are strong but not broken, I think.

[Squidgy]

19 MP Paladin?... I mean, it could work, but the Paladin skillset is now barely usable by Paladins. Don't get me wrong, I like the idea of nerfing Paladin... but isn't this shoving them in the Salty Rage corner?

[FFMaster]

Robes, Cross Helm. They basically have the same restrictions as mages who cast higher level spells.

[Squidgy]

That's if you consider Nurse, Dia, etc. akin to high level spells. Transfusion is good enough to warrant a higher mana cost... in fact, wasn't it 20? I'm still in the mentality of highest HP possible with equips (unless you got a team gimmick like elemental absorb, or... I still need to make an all immune to DA Paralyze team)... but might as well test out the Cross Helmet, since I don't think anyone else has used it.

EDIT: Oh, little minor thing... notice Scholars don't care to use Hi-Ethers on themselves. Back when the spells were recurring they did, but now for some reason the AI just doesn't have incentive.

[FFMaster]

What do you guys think of a Support that increases range for the ranged weapons? In other words, Longbows, Crossbows, Books and Guns would gain 1 extra range with this support on. If that consists of too many weapons, then we can change it to whatever we want. I stole this idea from Arch's forum, and thought it would be interesting to do. I can make it in a bit if people like it, but if it won't be used, then why bother?

[CT5Holy]

I like it. Can already start stitching a team together with it.

Include Harps, too? Both Books and Harps are 3 range, so if Books get the range increase, it would make sense for Harps to get it too.

EDIT: Cheer Song and Slow Dance up to 25%? At 20% hit rate, there's a 41% chance that it will do nothing. At 25%, there's only a 31% chance that it will do nothing. Yes, minor fluctuations in speed can make a difference, but if the speed isn't even altered in the first place... =/

[pokeytax]

What do you guys think of a Support that increases range for the ranged weapons? In other words, Longbows, Crossbows, Books and Guns would gain 1 extra range with this support on.

Sounds good. 2 range might be better, unless it's really cheap - it has to compete with Concentrate and Attack UP.

Cheer Song and Slow Dance up to 25%?

Sure. Cheer Song at 30% would be reasonable, I think, it deserves a higher chance to hit than Slow Dance.

I like Paladin MP being terrible, but I want MP to be a bigger constraint in general... I can see why you don't want Paladins to have to equip special equipment to use their skillset, Squidgy. Still, my Paladins are running around Grand Crossing everything with 19 MP and a piddly 2 MP per turn from Move-MP UP. I don't think any Paladin will ever use a robe, though, the HP loss is just too much.

Paladins having 2 Jump really bones them on some maps due to start position (e.g. stuck on the roof in Zaland Fort City). Over the space of all maps this might be balanced, but I don't think people would find it very fun to lose that way in a tourney setting.

[Squidgy]

I haven't noticed the 2 jump drive me insane yet, but I haven't played too many different maps, and Franz has 6 range...
Grand Cross does so much awesome with Elemental Absorb and looks so pretty, yet costs only 6 mp, when everything else is 10. I'm just thinking the costs are off based on the effect.

[FFMaster]

Yeah, moving them to 2 jump was a bad idea. They will go back to 3 jump. And Paladins will have minimum 25 MP, for 2 casts.

Grand Cross... I think needs to go up in MP. I'm thinking 12 MP right now, and maybe a small CT.

Right now, I feel like Thief and Archer skillsets need a good overhaul. Pretty much untouched except for their stats/equips. Other than that, people rarely use Charge/Steal as a secondary skillset. Anyone have any suggestions? I seriously don't know what to do.

Ninja's Nightslayer might be changed. Same concept, but much stronger.
Reaper's Scythe - Deals 100% damage to a unit inflicted with Death Sentence.

I'll probably move Cheer Song/Slow Dance to 25% and see how it goes first.

And for the range hack, I can make it any range, and yes, it would also affect harps. It should affect any ranged weapon.

And finally, I really need ideas for Throw Stone.

[The Damned]

So, I was going through the stats rather closely for once and I noticed that Geomancers are basically inferior Squires stat-wise now. The same for Mediators and Chemists. I suppose I can understand why given the move-set difference for the former, but the latter is just...weird given that Chemists get a lot more use than Mediators have ever gotten and they don't even use MA (or Faith).

Besides that, all I have to say is that links to the Item and Zodiac Chart (and probably even team making thread) should be in the first post. It might also be good to put the note that "All Geomancy is 600 JP" here for newer people, though that one seems less necessary.

Yeah, moving them to 2 jump was a bad idea. They will go back to 3 jump. And Paladins will have minimum 25 MP, for 2 casts.

Yeah, going back to 3 Jump is fine, but they still seem like they could stand to lose a bit of HP, especially if Grand Cross (and even Dia) heals them now.

Grand Cross... I think needs to go up in MP. I'm thinking 12 MP right now, and maybe a small CT.

It needs it's damage lowered (with respect to Strengthen: Holy at least) given that Knights have no reason to use it with anything but Excalibur, which is already a damn good Knight Sword. (Arguably the best one.)

Right now, I feel like Thief and Archer skillsets need a good overhaul. Pretty much untouched except for their stats/equips. Other than that, people rarely use Charge/Steal as a secondary skillset. Anyone have any suggestions? I seriously don't know what to do.

Thief is fine, though you never did answer my question about whether you had (or could) make Steal not trigger (physical) counters. Not really you're fault that no one uses it; I was going to give Vega Steal Weapon, but between the JP cost and not being sure about the counter thing, I decided against it.

Archer...I'm not sure. I'll try to think of something, but I know that I had trouble thinking of techniques for them. Hmm...maybe I'll check my notes for my patches....

Ninja's Nightslayer might be changed. Same concept, but much stronger.
Reaper's Scythe - Deals 100% damage to a unit inflicted with Death Sentence.

That seems fine, though would the computer even bother using it on Death Sentenced people if it avoid them?

I'll probably move Cheer Song/Slow Dance to 25% and see how it goes first.

Also fine.

And for the range hack, I can make it any range, and yes, it would also affect harps. It should affect any ranged weapon.

Won't the "gaps" for Harps and Books get really wonky the more range you give them, though?

And finally, I really need ideas for Throw Stone.

Also not sure on this. I will try to think of something, though.

[pokeytax]

Geomancers are overshadowed by Squires and Samurai, who have excellent skillsets and stats (Geomancer has terrific R/S/M but you can't balance so much on that). Could use a few points to PA/MA. Mediators and Chemists are both weak - Mediator has 9 SP but is still outclassed by Archer or Time Mage, depending on application. Chemist at least has a good skillset and innate.

Given that the Grand Cross formula doesn't go lower than PA*WP, higher MP cost and short CT sounds good (didn't realize it only cost 6, that's why I had no problems!).

Dunno what flexibility you have but maybe PA*(1...9) or so for Throw Stone? Also, I am not up on what formulas can take what evasion, but this is what I was thinking for Charge. Honestly I like the direction you took, it just needs to be made more usable.

Code Select Expand

CHARGE       RNG  AoE  VERT  CT  MP  ELE  FORMULA                   EV?  SPECIAL  STATUS           COUNTER
Leg Aim      Wpn  0    Wpn   0   0   ---  Hit_(SP+55)%              ---           Add: Don't Move  C, CF
Arm Aim      Wpn  0    Wpn   0   0   ---  Hit_(SP+45)%              ---           Add: Don't Act   C, CF
Heart Aim    Wpn  0    Wpn   3   0   ---  Dmg_(Weapon)              ---                            C, CF
Execute      Wpn  0    Wpn   4   0   ---  Dmg_(TgtMaxHP - TgtCurHP) P                              C, CF
Greased Bolt Wpn  0    Wpn   0   6   ---  Hit_(SP+60)%              ---           Add: Oil, Slow   C, CF
Cover Fire   4    1    3     0   12  ---  Dmg_((1...3)*(PA*3+60))   P                              C, CF


[FFMaster]

Thief is fine, though you never did answer my question about whether you had (or could) make Steal not trigger (physical) counters. Not really you're fault that no one uses it; I was going to give Vega Steal Weapon, but between the JP cost and not being sure about the counter thing, I decided against it.

Steal will always trigger physical counters. I can't really stop that.

That seems fine, though would the computer even bother using it on Death Sentenced people if it avoid them?

True, guess some testing will help.

Won't the "gaps" for Harps and Books get really wonky the more range you give them, though?

No. I tested out the hack, Harps and Books are pretty much 3 range crossbows, increasing the range would be like making them actual crossbow range.

[CT5Holy]

Damned: I think Grand Cross is actually weapon element still.

Pokeytax: I don't like Heart Aim, assuming that it's meant to be an unevadable attack. I say we keep current Execute, and have your Execute renamed to something like Wound Aim (or something better, of course). That way you get instant kill on a critical unit, or a kill on someone with <= 50% max HP at the cost of 4 CT (maybe 5 CT? seems quite strong).