Final Fantasy Hacktics

General => Archives => FFT: ASM'd => Topic started by: on December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 pm

Poll
Question: Phaseshifter(?) or Monstars!?
Option 1: Merge bard/dancer, introduce new class? votes: 8
Option 2: Give more stuff to performers (and leftovers to monsters) votes: 1
Title: Leftover ability slots - new generic class or perk performers/monsters?
Post by: philsov on January 05, 2011, 07:09:27 pm
Simply put, there are still about 14 or so spare ability slots.  I want to keep a very small amount around (4-6) as blanks for future development, but this frees up 8-10 slots that I still have no clue what to do with.

My initial instinct was to pump up the number of monster abilities to help diversify the tiers and give elements/range/proc/etc to their to-be unique-but-currently-normal "attack" commands.  

But then I looked at the dancer and the bard and with Slow Dance / Speed Song removed from the game, each of these classes boasts a whopping 6 skills.  On top of that, in keeping with one of the ideas of ASM'd, Song/Dance are losing their map-wide effects in exchange for a large self AoE.  A simple solution to the song/dance problem would be to just combine these into a single skillset.  With 12 skills and both offensive and defensive options, Performers as a whole would see more use imo.  This of course leaves a gaping hole on the job wheel.  It's an easy solution but it creates a new problem. (Well, not a problem per se, just something undesireable)

So... in keeping with another idea of ASM'd (show off what we can do), with the use of the Ability Requirement Hack I can create the Phaseshifter(?) class, who is able to both activate and cancel the "cursed looking" status, which is either required or prevents his abilities.  Cursed version is of course darker, focusing on self-harm, large single-target damage, and negative status.  Light side is more defensive dealing with HP curing, light AoE, and positive status.

Meanwhile, I can also throw in two additional abilities into bard/dancer and then pump the rest into monsters as above.  But I'm at a loss on what exactly to give dancers.

Bard:
Requiem - High % chance to sleep/damage/something undead
War Song - Grants 5 Br to everyone in the area

Dancer:
Sword Dance - Self AoE 1 dealing normal melee damage to everything in sight (its like wave around, only it's not)
????

~

Note: I think most other classic FF classes are redundant with the current scheme with the notable exception of Scholar but I just can't think of enough worthwhile and unique abilities to justify giving him a spin.

But, enough blather!  Vote!  It closes in two weeks and the majority will rule.
Title: Re: Leftover ability slots - new generic class or perk performers/monsters?
Post by: Pride on January 05, 2011, 07:13:30 pm
The only reason why I don't like the idea of the "phaseshifter" is that the ai would be completely unable to use the job. And because of this, I'd rather see the performers gain new abilities along with monsters. 
Title: Re: Leftover ability slots - new generic class or perk performers/monsters?
Post by: philsov on January 05, 2011, 07:17:05 pm
A bandaid for this would be to introduce a new accessory that is initial:cursed looking and forcing that on several of them as they're encountered.  But, yes, it's something to be considered. 
Title: Re: Leftover ability slots - new generic class or perk performers/monsters?
Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on January 05, 2011, 10:55:47 pm
QuoteThis of course leaves a gaping hole on the job wheel.  It's an easy solution but it creates a new problem. (Well, not a problem per se, just something undesireable)


How doe this leave a gaping hole in the Job Wheel, precisely?

Merge Bard and Dancer, make both skillsets contain all the various "Performer" skills, tweak their prerequisites to be the same, call it a day.  Just because they're technically two different classes on the Job Wheel doesn't mean they can't be made to seem like the same one.  Plus, gimmicky classes like Phaseshifters have no business being on the generic Job Wheel when every other class isn't a giant walking gimmick, and the AI issues mean that they'll always only be able to use half the skillset, meaning even a band-aid fix means any introduced is only working at 50% capacity.

Thus, my vote is quite literally fuck both Poll options, Merge Bard/Dancer, give more Monster abilities.  You have a few breeds of monsters that would greatly benefit from the added skills, after all.  Then again you're talking to the insane bastard who dedicates 8 skills to each Monster, but even 6 each works plenty.
Title: Re: Leftover ability slots - new generic class or perk performers/monsters?
Post by: The Damned on January 05, 2011, 11:35:28 pm
[Out of curiosity, I must ask two questions:


  • If you went with the monster option, does this mean that monsters would have more than 4 attacks, including the Monster Skill one, per monster? Or would you "only" be diversifying their Attacks as you said?
  • Personally, what "niche" do you feel like the Phaseshifter is adding to the game that is a suitable "replacement" for either Bard or Dancer (assuming that the class you're adding in is going to be one that only a single sex can access)? What other classes have you considered?



As it stands, I sort of agree with Raven, but I need more input before I can actually "vote" on anything.
Title: Re: Leftover ability slots - new generic class or perk performers/monsters?
Post by: philsov on January 06, 2011, 09:30:08 am
QuoteIf you went with the monster option, does this mean that monsters would have more than 4 attacks, including the Monster Skill one, per monster? Or would you "only" be diversifying their Attacks as you said?


Both.  Monster skill is something I'd like to keep at one per family.  I would be modifying their "attack" command and/or giving them an additional ability to be used within their skillset.  As of right now most monsters are following this scheme:

attack / skill 1 / skill 2 / MS
attack / skill 1 / skill 3 / MS
attack / skill 2 / skill 3 / MS  

With 10-ish free slots this enables either a 5th ability to be throw into the mix with for single-tier-unique ability, or a custom attack command (Necrotic Touch, Throw Spirit, etc.).  However I'm a whore for symmetry, so if 5th abilities were introduced they'd be similar to the tree scheme of:

attack / skill 1 / skill 2 / MS
attack / skill 1 / skill 3 / MS
attack / skill 1 / skill 4 / MS

And I don't know how much more effective that'd be.  

QuotePersonally, what "niche" do you feel like the Phaseshifter is adding to the game that is a suitable "replacement" for either Bard or Dancer (assuming that the class you're adding in is going to be one that only a single sex can access)? What other classes have you considered?


No niche, just supplemental to well... everything without being able to do everything at the exact same time.  

As for other classes, I'm not about to list them all but I don't want something hybrid-y (Mystic Knight, Red Mage), all the direct casters are taken care of, and finding a niche within the physicals is difficult.  

Actually, on thinking to FFTA Templar might be a good choice?

Or I can just Mu it all.
Title: Re: Leftover ability slots - new generic class or perk performers/monsters?
Post by: The Damned on January 06, 2011, 04:42:36 pm
Sorry. I would have responded sooner, but I only woke up a couple of hours ago and this damn song (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=izOdvBmTDh0) has been distracting me.

Quote from: philsov on January 06, 2011, 09:30:08 am
Both.  Monster skill is something I'd like to keep at one per family.  I would be modifying their "attack" command and/or giving them an additional ability to be used within their skillset.  As of right now most monsters are following this scheme:

attack / skill 1 / skill 2 / MS
attack / skill 1 / skill 3 / MS
attack / skill 2 / skill 3 / MS  

With 10-ish free slots this enables either a 5th ability to be throw into the mix with for single-tier-unique ability, or a custom attack command (Necrotic Touch, Throw Spirit, etc.).  However I'm a whore for symmetry, so if 5th abilities were introduced they'd be similar to the tree scheme of:

attack / skill 1 / skill 2 / MS
attack / skill 1 / skill 3 / MS
attack / skill 1 / skill 4 / MS

And I don't know how much more effective that'd be.


Ah, I see. I had suspected that was your meaning as well.

Also, nice to see that someone else is symmetry's bitch too. I probably get far more annoyed than you about asymmetry things--I'll try not to go off into a tangent while typing this--and such, so it's nothing too atypical even if it could be a bit dull in this instance. Still, considering your overhauling things, it'd probably be easier to ultimately test them.

Anyway, if that's the case, wouldn't you need 11 skills given that only four monsters (Ghouls, Woodfolk, Hydras and...something else I can't remember) have atypical "attack" commands. Or would you be screwing over one of the (lesser) monster classes by just not giving them a fifth skill?

Hmm...this makes me realize that know I know what skills you're at least generally giving to monsters, meaning that I can start posting (almost singularly) in that battle suggestion thread again. Hurray.

Quote from: philsov on January 06, 2011, 09:30:08 amNo niche, just supplemental to well... everything without being able to do everything at the exact same time.


So, basically, like Red Mage, only with Curse/Dark/Evil-Looking status focus and not as blatantly thieving? How does the AI react to the Curse/Dark/Evil-Looking status as it is? And, again, what would it be replacing?

Quote from: philsov on January 06, 2011, 09:30:08 amAs for other classes, I'm not about to list them all but I don't want something hybrid-y (Mystic Knight, Red Mage), all the direct casters are taken care of, and finding a niche within the physicals is difficult.


I guess I should have been a lot more direct and just asked "Did you look at FFCompendium's Jobs List and just not see anything remotely interesting?" (http://www.ffcompendium.com/h/jobs.shtml)

Quote from: philsov on January 06, 2011, 09:30:08 amActually, on thinking to FFTA Templar might be a good choice?


I'm giving FFTA Templar a try, but that was more a necessity due to getting rid of 6 jobs (well, technically only 4) and changing up 3 others. I've yet to test them, of course, and they were having work with Silence as Addle (though it may change back). Actually, let me look at my notes to see what I gave them if I can find it.

Please hold.

*waiting music plays* (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yRGoXj_S6fc&feature=related)

....

Okay. Found it. *coughs* Damn dust.

I had forgotten that I actually got around to successfully making a Word document for it and all other generics before I stopped. Anyway, I kind of had problems thinking of what given them considering the amount of other skills I wanted to give other classes, even with all the classes I tore apart/destroyed/got rid of. They ended up having only 8 skills, pretty much all of them being anti-magic and only one being physical. This is despite the fact that they're supposed to be a physical, heavy-armored, spear-wielding class (with all Spears having been buffed, but still needing to be tested)--keep in mind that Oracle was one of the classes I killed:

1. Osmose (Spell Absorb)
2. Apostatize (Doubt Faith)
3. Berserk (Blind Rage)
4. Magic Ruin [Note: My Knights don't have the Ruin skills; otherwise should act like 1.3 Magic Ruin]
5. Confuse (Confusion Song) [EDIT: Actually, this should be Addle/Silence, not Confuse, b/c we know how AI is w/ Confuse & Death Sentence]
6. Zombie [Note: Was considering making this add both Undead and Curse/Dark/Evil-Looking]
7. Astra (Foxbird) [Note: According to my Notepad doc from Apr., this adds ST Reflect & Regen]
8. Debarrier (blank spot between Meteor[ain] and above Blind) [Note: Wpn-based ST-Cancel: Protect, Shell & Reflect; currently meant to require Sword or Spear]


Meh. I'm sure you can think of something superior (if you even think the class could fit) given your body of work and the lack of overlap on your classes thus far.

Quote from: philsov on January 06, 2011, 09:30:08 amOr I can just Mu it all.


All ends and begins with Mu.

...Wait. Wrong game and wrong consonant.
Title: Re: Leftover ability slots - new generic class or perk performers/monsters?
Post by: GeneralStrife on January 06, 2011, 04:52:24 pm
Voted new class, not many votes yet though
Title: Re: Leftover ability slots - new generic class or perk performers/monsters?
Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on January 06, 2011, 06:19:13 pm
Quote from: philsov on January 06, 2011, 09:30:08 amattack / skill 1 / skill 2 / MS
attack / skill 1 / skill 3 / MS
attack / skill 1 / skill 4 / MS

And I don't know how much more effective that'd be.


Do that.  Done well it works rather nicely.  It's what I was doing until I realized I had enough room to do 1 / 2 / 7 / MS - 3 / 4 / 7 / MS - 5 / 6 / 7 / MS.
Title: Re: Leftover ability slots - new generic class or perk performers/monsters?
Post by: pokeytax on January 07, 2011, 06:15:22 pm
No contest for me, new generic class trumps all, Performer even has precedent in FFX-2.

My dream class is a Chocobo Knight. As with Blue Mage and learn-on-hit, much of the functionality is there, if all-but-unused (seriously, it's not even mentioned in the BMG!). I would be happy to hack a few things if you can decide how to make the class viable (I know, it's not easy to balance a one-for-two). I'm pretty sure the ARH could be tweaked to detect mounted flag and mount job.

I'm not as down on the shifter as everyone else (Lune Knight? Cecilish Paladin/Dark Knight?). But I don't think you should worry so much about filling a niche - if they're all filled, all the more reason to go fresh and fun.
Title: Re: Leftover ability slots - new generic class or perk performers/monsters?
Post by: The Damned on January 08, 2011, 02:23:00 am
Ha, I was totally going to say that I remember the BMG did have a section on Learn On Hit, but I looked at it again and all it has a brief section (6.4) of what can be learned on hit. It doesn't even talk about what gets in the way of Learn on Hit. Boy, I remember that being "fun" to test out for Blue Mage....

Anyway, out of curiosity (and since we're throwing around ideas here anyway), what exactly would a "Chocobo Knight" entail, pokeytax?
Title: Re: Leftover ability slots - new generic class or perk performers/monsters?
Post by: pokeytax on January 08, 2011, 10:14:44 am
A reason to ride a chocobo. Right now all the functionality is there, but it's broken by the numbers - it's never worth sacrificing a unit in order to get Move +2 and some status immunity. At least Learn-on-Hit gets a subsection in the BMG, riding doesn't even get a mention! I don't know if I can give the Chocobo a turn without breaking things, but something like increased CT/HP would be a start.

The FFTA2 Chocobo Knight class gets different abilities based on the color Chocobo being ridden, so I was gonna start there.

Of course, you could always make Chocobos worthwhile to ride in general and skip the gimmick class. I just love gimmick classes, is my problem.
Title: Re: Leftover ability slots - new generic class or perk performers/monsters?
Post by: Gotwald on January 08, 2011, 10:54:15 am
Quote from: pokeytax on January 08, 2011, 10:14:44 am
The FFTA2 Chocobo Knight class gets different abilities based on the color Chocobo being ridden, so I was gonna start there.


They also were still riding the chocobo in the formation screen after a battle; unless you can rig that I don't know what else can be done for a chocobo knight.
Title: Re: Leftover ability slots - new generic class or perk performers/monsters?
Post by: philsov on January 08, 2011, 11:38:37 am
OK, did some thinking:

1) Bard and Dancer ARE getting merged.
2) Phaseshifter sucks

So... the choice is 19 generic classes with expanded monsters or 20 generic classes and standard monsters.  And, if new class, what class?  Note: new class will be either male or female-only.  

Quote"Did you look at FFCompendium's Jobs List and just not see anything remotely interesting?"


Not particularly, no >_>.

Regarding a chocoknight, making the mount worthwhile would be... a large undertaking for the reasons you spoke of (2 for 1), but if you have the capability to tweak the ARH to check for mounted that'd be a great place to start.  I'm less concerned about different abilities on different chocobos than just "abilities while on chocobos" in general.

And while mounting isn't really mentioned in the BMG, Notti gave it a nod in his Deep Dungeon guide (it's horribly misnamed, but whatever) in a lovely section entitled "Hi-ho Boco! Away!"
Title: Re: Leftover ability slots - new generic class or perk performers/monsters?
Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on January 08, 2011, 12:14:58 pm
19 Classes, Better Monsters seems far superior with the rate things are going.
Title: Re: Leftover ability slots - new generic class or perk performers/monsters?
Post by: pokeytax on January 08, 2011, 12:44:26 pm
Quote from: philsov on January 08, 2011, 11:38:37 amNote: new class will be either male or female-only.


Forgot about that. That's a pain. If you already have an idea of where to go with the monsters, maybe you should just go with that, since nobody seems to really know what to do with an extra generic (Chocoknight is a big undertaking).
Title: Re: Leftover ability slots - new generic class or perk performers/monsters?
Post by: The Damned on January 08, 2011, 11:40:12 pm
Now, now, pokeytax. Don't be hasty. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p0j0lO7uQBo#t=13s)

I've at least some ideas besides Templar.

Quote from: philsov on January 08, 2011, 11:38:37 am
OK, did some thinking:

1) Bard and Dancer ARE getting merged.
2) Phaseshifter sucks


Well, I wouldn't say that Phaseshifter flat out sucks (especially considering some of the ideas that have flown around FFH, including "lol Swordskill Ramza"). It's merely that its niche or gimmick, whichever one you prefer to call it, is one that can't be exploited by the AI. (Or can it? I don't think the AI can use or even really recognizes the Dark/Evil-Looking/Curse status, but I can't exactly remember.)

That said, do you plan on making the amalgam class of Bard and Dancer--I guess we're calling it Performer--just a straight amalgam of abilities? Or are you going to overhaul Song and Dance abilities a bit too?

Also, at present, are you planning to make Performer female-only or male-only?

QuoteSo... the choice is 19 generic classes with expanded monsters or 20 generic classes and standard monsters.  And, if new class, what class?  Note: new class will be either male or female-only.


At present, I'm going with 20 generic classes and standard monsters, if only because you've yet to even fully flesh out (and I'm guessing test out) standard monsters. Kind of difficult for me to fully get behind an expanded monster idea when the regular monsters have yet to be fleshed out entirely. I'm not saying that to belittle you or anything given that I know that modding monsters (or, hell, any type of significant amount of modding) is a difficult process even with Patcher and orgASM.

That explained, going back to what you intend for Performer, would it be still be filling the niche of "trying to get male classes to use spell-casting jobs" or "trying to get female classes to use PA-based jobs"?

I have to know which (if either) before I bother saying anything else.

QuoteNot particularly, no >_>.


Blatant lies!
Title: Re: Leftover ability slots - new generic class or perk performers/monsters?
Post by: philsov on January 09, 2011, 12:04:21 pm
Quotejust a straight amalgam of abilities? Or are you going to overhaul Song and Dance abilities a bit too?


Pretty much straight amalgam.  Nameless Song is now separate effects with a lower raise but lost the potential for reraise.  Nameless Dance got a similar treatment and lost some of the heavier statii (frog, petrify... I think that's it).  Last Dance got removed for Sword Dance because CT00 abilities are vile against single bosses... and that's about it.  They've still got the skeleton of HP/MP/PA/MA/status/something.  They may gain the two bardish abilities mentioned in the OP if there is space as well. 

At the present what gender the performer is will be and its job requirements will be more determined on what the new class is than anything else.

Quoteyou've yet to even fully flesh out (and I'm guessing test out) standard monsters.


The animations/effects still need some tweaking but the mechanical stuff is input and it plays out wonderfully (but I'm biased).  I don't want to do a full flesh out until I'm finalizing, and if I include these monster changes then I'm still at the input stages, no?
Title: Re: Leftover ability slots - new generic class or perk performers/monsters?
Post by: The Damned on January 09, 2011, 06:35:02 pm
Eh. We all know the input stage is pretty large and considering we can't see what you can (obviously), all we have to off of is the Monsters thread, where at least a few monsters are still incomplete and more still are uncertain. So I'm merely saying that if you're having a difficult time thinking of appropriate and different abilities for all monsters as is, which is legitimately difficult, then (personally) it's a bit difficult for me to get completely behind a "give monsters even more abilities", even it would just be one more; that's essentially just going to be a different regular "Attack" is interesting/flavorful, but doesn't exactly drive me wild either.

That said, it's good to hear that monsters are testing well regardless.

With regards to Performer, if you're killing Last Dance (which is pretty necessary), I'm assuming that you're killing both Cheer Song and Slow Dance as well. Would that be correct? As such, I'm assuming that Performer looks like this at present:


  • Angel Song - Range nerfed like everything else. No other changes.

  • Life Song - See above.

  • Battle Song - See above.

  • Magic Song - See above.

  • War Song - Replaces Cheer Song. Currently seems asymmetrical without a Faith-raising song.

  • Nameless Song - Got nerfed a bit by losing Reraise and range, though the AI will probably still favor it over Life Song due to Regen.

  • Last Song - Range got nerfed. No other changes.

  • Witch Hunt - See above (though it probably needs a buff).

  • With Knives/Wiznaibus - See above (though it definitely needs a buff, especially with Swords Dance around now).

  • Polka Polka - See above.

  • Disillusion - See above.

  • Sword Dance - Replaces Slow Dance.

  • Nameless Dance - Got nerfed by losing Frog and Petrify as well as range.

  • Requiem - Replaces Last Dance.




Anyway, despite your (warranted) ambivalence towards the gender issue, I'm going to assume that Performers will end up being male if they end up being either gender. I assume this only because I also did much the same thing (through I ultimately ended up trying to combine Dancer with something else) and Bards failed (slightly) less than Dancers when it came to justifying males using magic classes since Bards are like Priests who ignore Faith. (This compared to Dancers, who felt like no physical class and instead played like Oracles with Ninja-esque evasion.)

So, that raises two more questions:


  • What should the PA-based female-only class be?

  • Will the male-only and female-only classes still have the exact same reactions, supports and movements? Should they?




While waiting for you to confirm what I've said, I'll be brainstorming the former--I sort of an idea already beyond what I ended up doing, which I can't suggest since I switched up pretty much every single class rather than just slight shifts of things.
Title: Re: Leftover ability slots - new generic class or perk performers/monsters?
Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on January 09, 2011, 06:43:31 pm
Quote from: The Damned on January 09, 2011, 06:35:02 pmSo I'm merely saying that if you're having a difficult time thinking of appropriate and different abilities for all monsters as is, which is legitimately difficult, then (personally) it's a bit difficult for me to get completely behind a "give monsters even more abilities", even it would just be one more; that's essentially just going to be a different regular "Attack" is interesting/flavorful, but doesn't exactly drive me wild either.


To be honest, more slots to work with makes things easier - you don't have to deal with that stupid and stilted ability spread that results in things like a Skeleton with two X-Soul skills.  When you can go "okay, everyone will have this skill and this skill, and this skill makes each tier unique", the job is honestly a lot easier than "okay... this guy gets these skills... this guy gets this and that... the third guy gets that and a new skill too, though not everything's meshing quite right..."

That's from my experience anyway.  The main reason I at least personally prefer giving monsters more skills to work with is because it makes actually balancing how they spread far easier.
Title: Re: Leftover ability slots - new generic class or perk performers/monsters?
Post by: The Damned on January 09, 2011, 07:13:52 pm
True. However, in this instance, given that philsov himself basically said that all monsters would essentially just get individualized Attacks if he used those slots on them, there's nothing made easier with this one slot. Monsters just at once become more different from other monsters yet less different from each other.
Title: Re: Leftover ability slots - new generic class or perk performers/monsters?
Post by: The Damned on January 16, 2011, 05:15:04 am
And by "a couple of hours", I of course meant six hours in between having to do/think of something else, getting distracted by various things and not having played the game or looked at formulas in forever; I didn't bother looking at formulas while thinking up this.

Anyway, given that's technically been a week since the last post, I suppose I'll double post a bit as much as it annoys me. At present, I present a possible PA-based female class opposite Bard. It doesn't use all 14 open slots, but you never said the new class would have to really:

Berserker (http://www.ffcompendium.com/h/jobs/berserker.shtml)

Now, now. Hear me out. Berserker wouldn't just be "have unit automatically start Berserked", but it would try to take advantage of Berserk, especially since the only item that you have that blocks Berserk is Ribbon, which grants no HP or MP now. So, technically, you could capture the core of a Berserker by giving them an ability the computer would use like Regen and/or Haste coupled with Berserk to further survivability while Berserked. You could similarly do other things to increase that survivability.

However, I'll stop talking and just post what I thought up with even if I find it mediocre at best:


Name: Berserker

(Crappy, Non-serious) Overview: The strongest of the physical classes, it uses the natural rage of a woman scorned to destroy all.

Innates: Martial Arts, Any Ground, Defense Up?

Equipment: Axes, Hat, Clothes, Acc.

Abilities:
Savagery:
Berserk: Adds Berserk, Regen and Haste to self or heals a significant bit to self and adds Berserk & Regen to self. (I can't remember if the latter is possible as a guaranteed thing.)

Takedown: Deals more damage to opponent at increased risk to self/recoil.

Cripple: Close-range attack that attempts to add Don't Act and/or Don't Move to target.

Move Obstacle: 100% Knockback attack, basically a much stronger version of the missing Dash.

Ground Shaker: Mimic Titan for humans, basically, especially since your Blue Mage doesn't have it. Hell, you could probably just straight up give them Mimic Titan with the monster changes.

Howl: PA-based self-AOE that attempts to add Slow to enemies.

Frenzy: Perserving physical attack. Would need to be weaker than the regular attack so not to outclass it.

Eject: Only distance ability. A direct PA-based Dispel Magic-ability. Should probably take at least a bit of MP given that Dispel Magic hardly gets used as it is.



You could probably give them Squire's Cleave or something too.

Besides that, I sort of had an idea for another bow class, but it'd be kind of weird posting that (even if I could think of something that I thought was decent at the moment) given that, frankly, I don't much like your current skillset for Archer. So....
Title: Re: Leftover ability slots - new generic class or perk performers/monsters?
Post by: philsov on January 16, 2011, 02:48:22 pm
indeed.  So bow-y ideas are still welcome for the archer class itself.

Anyways, good idea.  A female fighter seemed like a good notion, but I didn't know if I wanted to go assassin-like or berserker-like.  Innate Def Up might be a bit much, but all in all I like the skillset.  Eject is a bit redundant under the current scheme, but I can introduce a "heartbreaker" type ability which inflicts a negative status onto the opposite sex, and a persevering attack is sweet.  Plus with Geomancer and Lancer as prereqs... I can see it fitting.  No need to shuffle the tree around :D
Title: Re: Leftover ability slots - new generic class or perk performers/monsters?
Post by: philsov on January 18, 2011, 03:00:31 pm
aaaaand, poll made absolutely pointless.

Monsters given new stuff (3 family abilities + 1 species-specific + attack command) AND we've got a new class on our hands.  And all I had to do was horribly gut Beowulf's skillset. Beowulf is now a Red Mage. 
Title: Re: Leftover ability slots - new generic class or perk performers/monsters?
Post by: Dokurider on January 18, 2011, 06:08:42 pm
Quote from: philsov on January 18, 2011, 03:00:31 pm
aaaaand, poll made absolutely pointless.

Monsters given new stuff (3 family abilities + 1 species-specific + attack command) AND we've got a new class on our hands.  And all I had to do was horribly gut Beowulf's skillset. Beowulf is now a Red Mage.  


Good, maybe that way, they won't put the oracle out of a job when he comes around.
Title: Re: Leftover ability slots - new generic class or perk performers/monsters?
Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on January 18, 2011, 06:26:17 pm
So Beowulf sounds like he's a mediocre unit that has abilities he could already learn from other skillsets sloppily tossed into one spot in an unfocused manner that can only really be justified because Square did it first, unless his abilities are still custom or he has innate Non-Charge or something actually defining.
Title: Re: Leftover ability slots - new generic class or perk performers/monsters?
Post by: philsov on January 18, 2011, 07:24:35 pm
it's not unfocused!  But yeah, pretty much.  Moves are not unique since those slots are better used elsewhere -- he just samples from each of the mage classes (minus blue mage)

Innate noncharge is OP, was planning on innate short charge + move MP up.
Title: Re: Leftover ability slots - new generic class or perk performers/monsters?
Post by: Eternal on January 18, 2011, 08:02:43 pm
If you wanted to pseudo emulate Doublecast, give 'em Innate: Short Charge and Half of MP.
Title: Re: Leftover ability slots - new generic class or perk performers/monsters?
Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on January 18, 2011, 08:05:06 pm
Quote from: philsov on January 18, 2011, 07:24:35 pm
it's not unfocused!  But yeah, pretty much.  Moves are not unique since those slots are better used elsewhere -- he just samples from each of the mage classes (minus blue mage)

Innate noncharge is OP, was planning on innate short charge + move MP up.


Non-Charge isn't OP if you properly modify his stats.

-Move-MP UP, +Half of MP.

If all he has is a bunch of rehashed trash, at least make it Short Charged high tier Spells that he can get off at a lower price to justify him as a late game unique character.  His class needs to have something really unique about it to justify a rehashed skillset or it's meh, especially considering his low Br and iirc sub-70 Fa.  Orlandu suffers from the rehash problem as well sort of, but he rehashes already defined sets and if you amalgamate his vanilla equipment spread somewhat combined with ARH he has the definition of being able to use those skills with a wider range of blades in his main class than their original carriers alongside his 80 Br... which is still probably less defined than one might like, but better than a sloppily done Red Mage Beowulf whose basically a Knight with a slapdash of various magic sets for a primary and more MP.
Title: Re: Leftover ability slots - new generic class or perk performers/monsters?
Post by: philsov on January 18, 2011, 09:33:21 pm
QuoteNon-Charge isn't OP if you properly modify his stats.


It's not so much his stats as it is his spellbook.  Absolutely pummel his MA so he can't insta-Meteor everything into oblivion, while keeping it high enough that the other higher-levels still do respectable damage?  That spread's too wide and I'm not going to reduce Meteor for Beo's sake, which is well-balanced with its current charge time and MP cost.  Throwing half MP into the mix makes a hypothetical non-charge meteor spammer even harder to reign in. 

And holy crap, thesaurus much?  Since all Beowulf is a rehashed mediocre special with a sloppily organized and unfocused skillset consisting of slapdash trash, then I'll just delete his punk ass.
Title: Re: Leftover ability slots - new generic class or perk performers/monsters?
Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on January 18, 2011, 09:58:15 pm
Quote from: philsov on January 18, 2011, 09:33:21 pm
It's not so much his stats as it is his spellbook.  Absolutely pummel his MA so he can't insta-Meteor everything into oblivion, while keeping it high enough that the other higher-levels still do respectable damage?  That spread's too wide and I'm not going to reduce Meteor for Beo's sake, which is well-balanced with its current charge time and MP cost.  Throwing half MP into the mix makes a hypothetical non-charge meteor spammer even harder to reign in.


Obviously you don't go for both Half of MP and Non-Charge.  Either Short Charge + Half of MP to make him highly economical as a melee caster to make up for his skillset not being something actually special or Non-Charge and some tinkering on his stat pool to make him weak but able to pad his approach to hack and slash with anything he wants at 0 risk.  I don't know offhand what your Y for Meteor is but if the Y to MP is really that troublesome with Non-Charge even at low-medium MA then go the Short Charge and Half of MP route.

Quote from: philsov on January 18, 2011, 09:33:21 pmAnd holy crap, thesaurus much?  Since all Beowulf is a rehashed mediocre special with a sloppily organized and unfocused skillset consisting of slapdash trash, then I'll just delete his punk ass.


Nope, that's my natural vocabulary.  I can pull some real bullshit if I grab my thesaurus like you wouldn't believe.

If you need his skillslots this badly and can't get a defined placement for him (Red Mage works if done well, but it really does need to be done well for it to not be a rehash of other classes that swings a sword around), then yes, delete his punk ass.  Trim the fat.  Good design is minimalistic.  If you can't find a proper role for something that isn't redundant or doesn't make something redundant, kill it.  Goes for weapons, generic jobs, special jobs, etc.  There is no point to allowing something sloppy or redundant to exist when you can make something not sloppy with that space or remove redundancy and clutter entirely.  Beowulf was already a bit sloppy in that he was an Oracle with a sword, making him a Red Mage doesn't do a lot to fix that and does plenty to easily cause you to make it worse if you're not very careful with what you do.  If you can't get a cool Red Mage or Templar setup working that lets you look at it and go "this character deserves to exist", delete it.  No one should hold it against you if you do, since knowing when to cut something can often be the hardest part of design.
Title: Re: Leftover ability slots - new generic class or perk performers/monsters?
Post by: The Damned on January 18, 2011, 11:38:21 pm
I take umbrage that you need a dictionary or a thesaurus to be properly wordy.

Anyway, with regards to Beowulf, yeah, I'd agree with Raven and say to just cut him if you don't think you have good ideas for him. Of course, this is partially going with the thought at present (read: last that I worked on it), I was most likely going to get rid of Beowulf myself or, rather, replace him. With regards to that, you can't really just "cut" Beowulf.

What I mean is that, unlike most other "special characters" (read: everyone but Mustadio, Beowulf and Worker 8), Beowulf's appearance and guest Colliery sequence is large trigger for getting quite a few of other/final special characters (Reis, Worker 8, Cloud and, technically, Byblos). You'd have to replace him with something/someone and him being out of the kind of affects Reis, who I was going to remove as well but I'm sure if you want to do that.

I'd have to see more of what you took from him and what you replaced it with to be able to say anything. I would say a similar thing about what you gave to monsters.

Quote from: philsov on January 16, 2011, 02:48:22 pm
indeed.  So bow-y ideas are still welcome for the archer class itself.

Anyways, good idea.  A female fighter seemed like a good notion, but I didn't know if I wanted to go assassin-like or berserker-like.  Innate Def Up might be a bit much, but all in all I like the skillset.  Eject is a bit redundant under the current scheme, but I can introduce a "heartbreaker" type ability which inflicts a negative status onto the opposite sex, and a persevering attack is sweet.  Plus with Geomancer and Lancer as prereqs... I can see it fitting.  No need to shuffle the tree around :D


I'm glad you liked, even if I'm admittedly surprised you liked it.

I'll try to think of Archer skills some time in the next couple of days.
Title: Re: Leftover ability slots - new generic class or perk performers/monsters?
Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on January 18, 2011, 11:56:10 pm
Quote from: The Damned on January 18, 2011, 11:38:21 pmWith regards to that, you can't really just "cut" Beowulf.


Give him a generic Swordskill set, leave him as a Guest until after Nevleska, make him leave and Reis join, edit like 3 lines of dialog to make it work.  You can then move his Sprite and stuff around and use his place to add a new Special Character if you want or just leave that party slot empty so people can actually keep Boco if he's made Special as well.

Not that hard really.

Quote from: The Damned on January 18, 2011, 11:38:21 pm
I take umbrage that you need a dictionary or a thesaurus to be properly wordy.


Also, nope.  You'd be surprised what kinds of effects simple things like having involved discussions with people and reading a book can do for your vocabulary.
Title: Re: Leftover ability slots - new generic class or perk performers/monsters?
Post by: The Damned on January 19, 2011, 01:41:55 am
I meant that I take umbrage with the idea that one needs a dictionary or a thesaurus to be properly wordy. Damn omission. My apologies.

Also, I guess the Guest thing works, but that's less cutting and more just making him intentionally generic.
Title: Re: Leftover ability slots - new generic class or perk performers/monsters?
Post by: philsov on January 19, 2011, 09:43:30 am
QuoteNo one should hold it against you if you do, since knowing when to cut something can often be the hardest part of design.


Cut?  Me?  Pfffft. 

Variety is awesome.  If I wanted to trim the fat I'd remove at least 3 weapon classes, consolidate the monsters to 1 species instead of 3, and outright remove ~50% of the special characters.  But the space is there and while certainly everything won't be unique everything should at least be worthwhile.  A character with the better part of each magical skillset and innate short charge is free to take in... literally any secondary and excel as a unit on the field.  Think of him as a mage-y version of Ramza. 

I was being facetious when I talked about cutting Beo.  His ability slots are best employed elsewhere and I still want him to linger around.  The only option, then, is to give him already existing abilities and innates as compensation.  If someone wants to keep Boco around instead of Beowulf then when Beo asks to join up the player can choose not to take him in.  I'm not going to preempt someone else's choice in their game. 

Cutting may be clean and efficient but its results are also boring and reduce replay value.  It's a classic "why" versus "why not" situation.  <3
Title: Re: Leftover ability slots - new generic class or perk performers/monsters?
Post by: The Damned on January 19, 2011, 07:51:25 pm
...What does Boco had to do with Beowulf?

Also, I'm still wondering what you did end up giving Beowulf and monsters specifically if you have the time to relay such information?

(I still haven't thought up replacement Archery skills, but I think that I can probably think of some by tomorrow.)
Title: Re: Leftover ability slots - new generic class or perk performers/monsters?
Post by: philsov on January 19, 2011, 11:26:49 pm
Quote..What does Boco had to do with Beowulf?


character slots, I think.  If you hold onto Rad/Alicia/Lavian, you can't have all special characters AND Boco.  Someone somewhere has got to get cut.  Speaking of which, Boco will probably be made into a quasi special character (replacing the undead oracle, lulz)... probably something to the tune of yellow chocobo skillset with either boosted stats or a cool innate or something.  Haven't really put much thought into the guy minus some backburner stuff.

As for what I've given Beowulf, no clue atm.  I'm currently busy implementing the new abilities and haven't given it much thought aside from "sampler platter of magic schools."  Mind, he's more likely to be a (classic) sage than a red mage in terms of spell selection now that I think about it, because he specifically comes in late-game and giving him crap like Fire2 just won't cut it.  Of course, JP rears its ugly head...

Cure 3
Protect 2
Shell 2
Raise
Fire 3
Ice 3
Lit 3
Virus
Spell Absorb
Life Drain
Paralyze
Sleep
Haste 2
Slow 2
Demi 2

Virus is a new wizard spell and is the strength of elemental 2 but has a poison proc to it.  Summon Magic cut from the batch because it'd be too redundant with the black magic floating around and the non-damaging summons don't quite fit in this skillset either.


A bit on the strong side, but downgrading to the ranks below makes him too feeble imo.
Title: Re: Leftover ability slots - new generic class or perk performers/monsters?
Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on January 20, 2011, 04:42:17 am
Innate: Short Charge, Half of MP, Gained JP UP.

Low-mid-level PA and MA, higher end HP and MP, Knight's gear selection.  The stat spread and innate Gained JP UP self-correct most of your qualms in regards to power levels and JP, innates allow him to rather competently use his set without needing blaster MA, gear spread keeps him multifunctional in that Red Mage-y sort of way if you really want to go there.  That set works in the Orlandu sense I suppose - he samples the best skills of each class, for the most part, so even without a defined role he's still worth something.  He can fill every role with that sense so one could almost argue "too good", but that's what you get when sampling the best 4 skills from 4 different sets and his comparative benchmarks are again going to be characters like Reis, Orlandu, and Meliadoul instead of Generic Male Knight and Mustadio, lol.

As for cutting - yes, cut the extra weapons that suck, make them into good weapons of other types.  That adds value by actually having more gear worth buying (or more gear that's likely to trip a player up if you're into that) instead of novel trash no one's going to buy unless buffed to hell or formula modded.  Monster classes, the only real reason not to unless you throw tons of skill slots at them is because there's not enough options to replace with something more varied.  50% of Special Characters?  Unless you're counting enemy Specials, which you quite shouldn't, only Rafa/Malak (story justified), Orlandu, Beowulf, and Reis (sort of story justified?) do much conflicting - and let's be honest, the last three mostly suffer from lazy design.  I'm just more surprised you took the chunk solely out of Beowulf - he had a huge set worth cleaving into for various reasons, but so do a lot of generic mage classes and other odd jobs.  Lots of fat all over the place to trim and use elsewhere.  It's just too bad the Item, Throw, and Jump skillslots can't easily be converted into generic slots, since they also have lots of fatty bits that could be potentially trimmed.  (You can't tell me Jump doesn't take an excessive number of skillslots with a straight face, can you?)

As for why vs why not - excess noise.  Low quality bits without exception detract from the experience.  A game that can give you one incredibly satisfying playthrough with its quantity amount is great and will generate its own replay value for just the experience itself - one that has the quantity for repeated playthroughs but not the quality to make you actually do it isn't going to be as good, regardless of how much is there.  The original game was good because expectations weren't ridiculously high and it delivered a lot of great content - and what wasn't great was still satisfying to use and easily drowned out by all the stuff that was.  Making a mod, the expectations above the base game exist and you need new ways to generate replayability, since anyone playing the mod has likely already played through the game twice or more if they care about replayability at all, which is why "cut the fat" becomes a far better policy - no one's saying remove content and leave it removed.  You can, but it's obviously better to replace the cut fat with nice lean bits of meat when you can find ways to do so.

Fuck, now I'm hungry. 
Title: Re: Leftover ability slots - new generic class or perk performers/monsters?
Post by: The Damned on January 21, 2011, 04:02:58 am
Beowulf looks fine.  (And everything that Raven said that thankfully I don't have to repeat.)

Anyway, so I was looking at your Archer skill set again and between seeing how equally crappy my old one was and your explanation of Execute in the monster thread, it's perhaps not as bad as I thought it was. Still, I feel there's room for improvement (even if you don't want to just jack Mustadio's skillset).

Let's look at your list:

??? - Weapon range attack inflicting stop
Leg Up - Self only, inflicts float at 100%.
Execute - Deals 21% HP damage to a unit in the critical status. Instant.
Poison Volley - Inflicts Poison to an AoE.
Oil Bomb - Inflict Oil to a single target
Fire Arrow - Fire-elemental weapon strike onto a single target, with an additional 25% for more fire magic funsies.
Aim - Deals WP*SP damage, unevadeable. Has synergy with two-swords.
Impact - Deals WP*PA damage and inflicts silence
Salve - Cleanses target various negative status, and heals for 20% health upon success.


Fire Arrow and Aim completely look fine--though, given what Skip Sandwich said in the Arena thread about Hawk's Eye, I have to ask if Aim is instant or not; I believe you said yes.

I also remember that AI will definitely use Poison Volley (whore, in Poison Volley's case), Execute (though I still say it should be more close-ranged; it is weapon ranged? I forget) and Salve (though I still say that it should cure less status effects...though I can't remember what it cures now).

This leaves ??? (why isn't Blue Mage getting this? Haha, I kid), Leg Up, Oil Bomb and Impact. Is Impact the same damage as a regular attack just with a Silence proc? If yes, then that's bad. Outside of that, I don't think the AI ever used Leg Up or Oil Bomb and the ??? seems a bit out of place (and potentially might outdo Time Mage's ability to Stop, though I suppose that will still multi-target in your patch, correct?), though I can understand why it's there.

So, let's say that Impact is fine, though maybe it would be better to have Impact cause Stop (or Slow) than just ???. That leaves Leg Up and Oil Bomb.

Well, Oil Bomb should really get combined with Poison Volley (and I'm pretty sure you still have the room Status assignment in status assignment) to cause Separate Oil and Poison (since the AI hates Random [whatever]).

After that, I think that you can either replace it by "stealing" FFMaster's/Arena's Cover Fire ability or using the nifty ARH (which I still haven't even attempted to use) to be able to now emulate FFTA's Sonic Boom ability (and restricting it to Longbows, Crossbows and maybe a few other weapons like Guns); I'm so glad that I realized we can do that now.

Leg Up...as I said all those months ago, I like the idea and get why it's there, but the AI seems like it's never going to use it unless it's Float packaged with Haste or Regen or something, which seems a bit much for something that's not supposed to be a spell-casting class. Too bad the AI won't use Float and is stupid about Invisibility/Transparent.

So let's nix that and replace with it, say, "Mindblow", basically a weapon-ranged Mind Ruin. It's not terribly original and it assumes that ??? merges with Impact, which leaves you with yet another slot, but I honestly can't think of much else that that computer might actually use.

Meh. I'll try to think of something other things since I'll be up all night.
Title: Re: Leftover ability slots - new generic class or perk performers/monsters?
Post by: philsov on January 21, 2011, 12:00:21 pm
Quoteyes, cut the extra weapons that suck, make them into good weapons of other types.


I've yet to overcome the graphical glitches that result in doing so.  The animation just looks horrible every time a re-classed weapon attacks.

QuoteIt's just too bad the Item, Throw, and Jump skillslots can't easily be converted into generic slots,


Oh, indeed -_-.  Regarding specials, I can't very well dig into Orly's repertoire because there's nothing to dig into, Reis's breaths (well, two of them) are getting double-used with the dragon family, and Worker 8/Musty/Meliadoul are all gaining skill(s) because lawd they needed some.   So... it falls onto Dear Beo.   Rafafalak losing one or two each was a possibility, but as of now all needs are satisfied.

I really don't think there's much fat in the mage skillsets in general (anymore) -- one needs to cope with various CTRs and MP costs and obvious scaling issues.  So far the rank-4 spells have all been removed because they were too large of an AoE and got replaced with 0 CTR single target abilities.  Black Magic's differing elements got tweaked a la Dome (but not to his extremes, guns are still fine, don't worry :)) to be slightly different from each other in terms of damage, CTR, and MP cost, while Summon Magic got twisted to include linear and 3-way attacks and half of the damaging ones that still have the standard 2 AoE lack smart targetting.  All that's left fat-wise is stuff like protect AND protect 2 but differences in CTR, vert tol/AoE, and MP cost should still make them both cute little snowflakes.  Least, I hope so.

Granted, there's some redundancy among the generics (5 of them can revive.  Revive differently/uniquely, mind, but revive nonetheless). 

~

Regarding potential Archery changes...

Yes, Aim is instant.  The only one that's charged and weapon-range is Impact, which may yet see some tweaks. 

Impact is the same damage if one is using a crossbow -- if the archer has a longbow it's increased damage since PA > Sp at every interval.  And it's not just a proc... it's 100% infliction (which is why it's not stop or slow, 100% on those is a mite overshadowing to time magic). 

Salve covers 6 or 7 different statii -- basically a little less than half of what Esuna covers, while also notably curing Undead and Blood Suck (Squire Heal covers the other half of Esuna) because previously only Item cured Undead/BS and I don't want that function being present on one and only one skillset.

I don't agree that Poison and Oil should be merged for the sake of the AI or the player.  Poison volley (bomb?) by itself is powerful enough and doesn't need anything else to be either worthwhile or effective.  Oil Bomb is quite similar, since it allows for a 1-2 combo with Fire Arrow.  It's a shame that the AI doesn't take advantage of this, and in order to increase incentive to do so it may take in a Stop or Don't Move effect (both of these are in the time mage school only atm), but merging oil with the poison is just too nasty.

Cover Fire I'm not too fond of because of scaling issues.  It works great for arena because there is no leveling up and PA/HP growth.  But in this case I can make it do respectable damage early on and then be worthless at mid-late game, or stupid powerful early on and then normal in mid-late.  In fact, I'm not really sure I like the idea of giving them AoE damage in general, but we'll see. 

Leg Up... just won't be used by the AI.  It's not a huge loss, it's a minor self buff that someone would use only at the very start of the fight, and even then it's still arguably weaker than accumulate or Br/Fa boosting or any manner of white/time buff.  But it's in the Archer skillset and if the Archer has nothing else to do, by all means perk up the longbow range.  I'm pretty sure the AI would rather Leg Up than just flat out not act, but I'll double check. 

If the ??? ability gets merged with oil bomb, then under the current count that's 8 which is quite alright by me.  I don't want to dip below that.  If Leg Up were to go, I don't think Mindblow is the answer because they already have an anti-caster ability, and should they get a PA-breaking ability I'd want it to be distinct from Power Ruin -- weapon range (ie, longer) and -2 PA (ie, weaker) is a start, for example, but I fear -2 PA would be even less worthwhile than self-float, and probably see the same level of usage by the AI (never). 
Title: Re: Leftover ability slots - new generic class or perk performers/monsters?
Post by: The Damned on January 22, 2011, 12:54:03 am
Meh. I suppose I forgotten that I was changing Mustadio and you weren't, so there's very little I could think of.

I'm not sure how I feel about Impact being 100%-hit, distance Silence, but with most everything else, we'll have to see I suppose.
Title: Re: Leftover ability slots - new generic class or perk performers/monsters?
Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on January 22, 2011, 03:20:01 am
Quote from: philsov on January 21, 2011, 12:00:21 pm
I've yet to overcome the graphical glitches that result in doing so.  The animation just looks horrible every time a re-classed weapon attacks.


Pretty sure you can fix it with Hex editing.  It's just knowing where to flip the bits.  Someone probably knows if you poke around, I remember Vampragonlord made a Broad Sword into a Gun or something ages ago.

Quote from: philsov on January 21, 2011, 12:00:21 pmOh, indeed -_-.  Regarding specials, I can't very well dig into Orly's repertoire because there's nothing to dig into, Reis's breaths (well, two of them) are getting double-used with the dragon family, and Worker 8/Musty/Meliadoul are all gaining skill(s) because lawd they needed some.   So... it falls onto Dear Beo.   Rafafalak losing one or two each was a possibility, but as of now all needs are satisfied.


Reis has 3 skills that can be gorged into.  You may as well cut into the third Breath skill for something.  Worker 8 I'm surprised needed extra slots dedicated to him since if memory serves, he already starts with 5 of them dedicated to him being nothing but Dispose and 4 variations of the Attack command that deal backlash damage and a proc that can't actually proc.  I was more commenting on their general poor or redundant design than gorging into them at that point, though.  Even without gutting him, Beowulf could already easily stand to lose half his skillset anyway.  I'm not bashing for digging into him so much as I am the fact you basically removed his class when I can't see you having to go to that drastic leap for ability slots.

Quote from: philsov on January 21, 2011, 12:00:21 pm[Mage Stuff]

Granted, there's some redundancy among the generics (5 of them can revive.  Revive differently/uniquely, mind, but revive nonetheless).


I was here for that, remember?  I suggested the Summon thing myself if memory serves.  However, what I'm getting at is - does Wizard need all 16 of its skills to function in the way you envision it?  Does Summon need all 16 Summons to function at its full potential?  Does Oracle need all 12 of those Status Spells to still be a debuffing, pole swinging beast?  Does Time Mage need a whole bunch of status and percent spells that are all basically the same 3 skills + Meteor to work?  Does Priest need 4 different skills that just grant more HP, multiple reviving skills, etc. to work?  Does your Performer need all 16 Songs and Dances to work?  Does the Mediator need to know all those different ways of never shutting the fuck up?  Are all those skills that the Squires are toting around now really Fundaments? While you can't really make use of cutting these - does Lancer need 9000 skills that teach it how to Jump?  Does Ninja need to know how to Throw every single little thing?  Does Chemist need access to every single one of those Items?

I was all about huge skillsets in the past, but actually sitting and looking at them, unless it's Blue Mage*, any time I find myself with a set that has more than ~8 skills, I find something redundant or too grossly overlapping that can easily be cut to give something that needs help elsewhere a new skill.  Sometimes this results in the temporary (or permanent, depending on how the empty slots fall) removal of a class, other times it means the distribution of skills is a bit more even and both classes have better justifications for existing beyond "well, it was there before, so why not?"  This is why I'm pressing you so hard on this - does every skill in every set need to exist for that set to function, and can the AI properly use every skill in that set?  If you can't meet both criteria, cut the skill.  In your case, do the 0 CT Black and White Magics need to be their own skills, or can you sub them for the Tier 2 Spells to add greater differentiation within the same tier instead of just between tier A and tier B?  Does the Monk need Secret Fist?  Does the Oracle need Petrify?  Does the Time Mage need Don't Move when it can access fucking Stop just as easily?  Do all the skills that are left all fit the role you were going for with that class, or can a different class carry that skill better?  (Hello, Poison on the fucking Black Mage and not the Oracle!)  If you sit and think about this shit, even after all the differences you've already added, I bet you'll find plenty of skills that can be better applied elsewhere, or that can be better carried by a different class to improve focus.  That's really what I'm getting at - for all the space problems you've been having, have you really trimmed your belt to the point you've got nothing left to trim?
Title: Re: Leftover ability slots - new generic class or perk performers/monsters?
Post by: philsov on January 22, 2011, 05:22:38 pm
QuoteI can't see you having to go to that drastic leap for ability slots.


A new class (that you don't agree with existing) with 8ish ability slots and each monster family (16 of them) getting 6 total skills instead of the initially planned 4 or 5.

All the skills that are in place currently are in their best possible location.  Only disparity I'm seeing is removing either Don't Move or Stop from Time Mage and giving it to Berserker as a battle-cry type ability.  No, setting the instant and single target spells as XXX 2 will not work because going from "charged weak AoE" to "instant single target" to "charged strong AoE" doesn't flow.  I could do some inner-balancing like make the level 1s a even wider AoE, which works within the skillsets themselves, but jives even less in the bigger picture.  

No, the monk does not need secret fist and the oracle does not need Petrify, but it's more fitting on those skillsets and those classes than any other.  Similarly a wizard doesn't need all 3 different elemental schools.  As of right now no one needs anything (Beowulf by definition doesn't even need it, his only unique abilities were Chicken and Shock.  Chicken is nixed right off the bat, but I can bring back in Shock np), so unless enough stuff becomes free in order to be scrape together yet another general ability for each monster (robbing Peter...) everything is fine.
Title: Re: Leftover ability slots - new generic class or perk performers/monsters?
Post by: The Damned on January 22, 2011, 07:53:28 pm
I may just be speaking for myself, but I'd personally rather Shock remain gone.

Quote from: RavenOfRazgriz on January 22, 2011, 03:20:01 am
Pretty sure you can fix it with Hex editing.  It's just knowing where to flip the bits.  Someone probably knows if you poke around, I remember Vampragonlord made a Broad Sword into a Gun or something ages ago.


I'll have to keep that in mind.

QuoteI was all about huge skillsets in the past, but actually sitting and looking at them, unless it's Blue Mage*


Now now, you know better than to use an asterisk without saying what the asterisk is there for.
Title: Re: Leftover ability slots - new generic class or perk performers/monsters?
Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on January 22, 2011, 08:18:59 pm
Quote from: philsov on January 22, 2011, 05:22:38 pmNo, the monk does not need secret fist and the oracle does not need Petrify, but it's more fitting on those skillsets and those classes than any other.


They fit more on those skillsets than on any other - but do even those skillsets need those skills, or could they be removed for something more integral to a different set entirely.  Which was really more my point - when everything is in its 100% optimal position, do those abilities even need to exist for that class to function how you want it to?  The ones that don't are easy cuts and are the ones that should be going before anything else.  This really has nothing to do with the new class existing, just being sure that every single skill is both in its 100% best position and is can justifiably exist in that position.

The Damned, the asterisk was just going to say "Because Blue Mage uses no additional ability slots", I just kind of forgot about it after writing everything else.
Title: Re: Leftover ability slots - new generic class or perk performers/monsters?
Post by: The Damned on January 22, 2011, 08:29:56 pm
Ah, I thought as much. Just wanted to confirm.

Anyway, I do rather agree with Raven about fat-trimming, even if I'm guilty of not doing it myself; actually, just this morning I was starting to look over all my classes again and I noticed that each class could stand to lose at least a couple of things (if not for "fat-trimming"), but I digress.

I agree that Oracle could gain Poison and that Monk could stand to lose Secret Fist, but I admittedly like Oracle and hate Monk, so.... On that same token, I don't actually think that Petrify needs to move, if only because the only class that could really make use of it would be maybe Time Mage; I just realized this morning how seemingly redundant it is to give it to Wizard.
Title: Re: Leftover ability slots - new generic class or perk performers/monsters?
Post by: philsov on January 22, 2011, 09:40:29 pm
well... poison is lost to wizards and on archers anyways.  Wizards gained a Virus spell for having a token non-elemental somewhere in their book which does have a poison proc, but honestly poison is underused on a skillset that features other strong AoE (damage, debuffs, or otherwise).  Archery doesn't, and poison bomb really shines in its new home imo.

Also Damned I love the pun in your new avatar.
Title: Re: Leftover ability slots - new generic class or perk performers/monsters?
Post by: The Damned on January 22, 2011, 10:00:07 pm
Ah, right. I keep forgetting that. When you get the chance, perhaps you could list all the skills your classes in class thread? I'm not asking for formulas or anything. Just a list of names and maybe what the newer abilities intend to do a general sense.

Quote from: philsov on January 22, 2011, 09:40:29 pmAlso Damned I love the pun in your new avatar.


Thanks. I figure I need a new avatar and I forgot I had so many saved. I don't even remember what I got this one from, but alphabetically it was one of the few ones that wasn't animated or an obnoxiously large size, so there she blows.

I'll probably leave it up for at least a few days.
Title: Re: Leftover ability slots - new generic class or perk performers/monsters?
Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on February 02, 2011, 01:12:00 pm
Quote from: philsov on January 21, 2011, 12:00:21 pm
I've yet to overcome the graphical glitches that result in doing so.  The animation just looks horrible every time a re-classed weapon attacks.


I'm just going to drop this here. (http://ffhacktics.com/smf/index.php?board=8.0)
Title: Re: Leftover ability slots - new generic class or perk performers/monsters?
Post by: philsov on February 02, 2011, 06:31:51 pm
wow, a link to the fft general hacking board.   Thanks  ;)

But, yeah.  Been lurking at that topic and am happy to see some conclusions to the deal.

I'll re-review the inventory list and see where this can be applied soonish.  I'd like to hammer out my current to-do list of making sure all the new stuff actually works as intended in-game.  Animation testing drains the everliving crap out of me.