Arena Map Alterations and Suggestions

[Reks]

I decided to fix up some of the normally unusable maps and make them a lot more interesting/fair for competitive use, so I'll use this thread as a compilation of my screenshots and work so far, as well as a thing for suggestions on some others.

Now please do keep in mind that map editing is remarkably tedious, long, and nightmarish if you do anything huge. More detailed ones can take multiple months on top of what I do elsewhere, so I'd prefer to keep the edits simple.

I'll update this post as I work on various ones, so keep checking in.

spoiler: WIP END fix

[Andrew]

Impressive stuff, Reks!  I look forward to seeing more.

[Reks]

Updated original for textures.

[3lric]

Let me know if you need some help, I'm decently versed in map editing. I offered some of my maps (like the 2 boats battle map) to FFMaster for Arena about a year ago but it never went anywhere.

Also, i hope you are using the duplicate polygon function

[Kurosabes]

Map changes for 1.40

spoiler: 001 - At Main Gate of Igros Castle

The gate is opened and the rooftop area of the gate is made inaccessible. One team starts clustered inside the gateway, the other is clustered on the flat grassland area of the map.

spoiler: 007 - Inside of Riovanes Castle

The higher end of the map has been lowered in height. Teams will start on both ends of the map instead of the pathways on the sides. There is still a slight height advantage for the other team, but I don't think it will really matter. The two flame obstacles have also been removed. This was the first map I have worked on when I was still relatively new to Ganesha, so it may feel a bit off. I may rework it for a future patch if it doesn't turn out well.

spoiler: 009 - Citadel of Igros Castle

Not fully refined, but this should suffice for now

spoiler: 015 - At the Gate of Limberry Castle (1)

A large bridge now connects the two gates. The first gate has been opened and the minor area behind it should be easier to access. However, some of it had to be cut due to technical limitations.

spoiler: 024 - Gariland Academy

Fixed the 'walkable' tiles

spoiler: 026 - Weapon Storage of Yardow

The lower portion of the map has been elevated. As a bonus, the car-like textures can now be walked on and are considered Machine terrain (which is Lava Ball geomancy)

spoiler: 033 - Hospital in the Slums

A new two-panel wide doorway has been added between the 'first' and 'fourth' rooms. The door that separates the 'second' and 'third' rooms has also been widened. It is overall much easier to see what's going on.

spoiler: 036 - Church Outside of Town

Not much to see here, just new starting position and also a new position for the tree

spoiler: 038 - Goug Machine City

spoiler: 039 - Underground Passage in Goland

Added an extra set of stairs

spoiler: 041 - Besrodio's House

Teleporter removed

spoiler: 042 - Warjilis Trade City

Changed team 1's starting position to the upper end of the marketplace. Elevated the starting point of team 2 for easy access to the market

spoiler: 050 - St. Murond Temple

The original idea was the widen the area a bit to get rid of the cluster, but instead I just ended up removing the cluster completely and adjusted the starting positions a bit so that the fighting will take place on the roof

spoiler: 059 - Underground Book Storage Third Floor

Elevated some parts of the ground terrain to make the upper terrain overall more accessible for 3 Jump units

spoiler: 062 - Chapel of Orbonne Monastery

Fixed walkable tiles and made the lower part of the map inaccessible

spoiler: 066 - South Wall of Bethla

Evened out the terrain

spoiler: 067 - North Wall of Bethla

spoiler: 082 - Bed Desert

Credits go to Reks

spoiler: 083 - Zirekile Falls

Widened the bridge

spoiler: 093 - Broken Down Wooden Shed

Credits go to Reks

spoiler: 097 - Inside Castle Gate in Lesalia

Added textures to the map, removed the part behind the gate, made the gate's roof area inaccessible, and the walkable panels actually appear.

spoiler: 098 - Outside Castle Gate in Lasalia

Slightly elevated the ditches on the sides, fixed textures, fixed walkable tiles, added some Kamaitachi terrain

spoiler: 104 - Beoulve Residence, bedroom

Removed the bed, fixed wall textures, added Kamaitachi terrain

spoiler: 114 - END

Credits go to Reks

spoiler: 115 - Banished Fort

Removed the bottleneck on the side of the map. Also lowered some of the hill terrain because it had another potential one-sided bottleneck.

Maps with no actual (or visual) edits, just new starting positions:
023 - Beoulve Residence - Made the roof inaccessible
047 - Zarghidas Trade City
052 - Chapel of St.Murond
057 - Underground Book Storage Floor 1
064 - Bethla Garrison Sluice
078 - Zigolis Swamp - Terrain change from 'Poison Swamp' to 'Swamp'. No change to starting positions.
081 - Grog Hill
107 - NOGIAS

Delayed:
Church Outside of Town
Granary of Bethla Garrison
Nelveska Temple
MLAPAN

2024 edit: Updated broken image links.

[Gaignun]

Great work, Wiegraf.  Those edits are adding much-appreciated value to those maps.  I look forward to the remaining edits.

[Elmdork]

Great job wkw, you too reks! The maps look awesome, 009 citadel, can't see the picture. I like the bridge idea in 015 limberry, I think it will make the map more interesting overall. Zirekile falls has always been one of my favourite maps as it is, definitely a bottleneck, but a fair one. Really rewards you for investing into mobility, so I don't mind if it stays as is, but extending the bridge will certainly centralize the action. I suppose we don't want to just give the matches to the more mobile team, so this may offer more fair play. Keep up the good work guys!

[Andrew]

My favourite edited map of yours will always be Hospital in the Slums.  It now has depth, doesn't favour spell casters nearly as much as before, and won't make you feel sea sick every two seconds with the rapid camera angle spinning.  Good job on all of these, man!

[Kurosabes]

Update on my progress:

Maps up to (and including) 066 are complete and tested for 1.4, except...

036 - Church Outside of Town
Changing the starting positions is a temporary fix. I don't know if it'll be good in the long run, but at least it's better than current starting positions. Will go back and do a proper edit if I have time after I'm through the rest, probably wouldn't take that long.

041 - Besrodio's House
The map can function like we want it to, but there is no direct way to remove the animated part of the teleporter. The solution I can think of would be to find the part of the Deep Dungeon hack where it loads this map and change it to load the version without the teleporter. That is not something I have the knowledge for right now.

065 - Granary of Bethla Garrison
This map is a big clustermess. There is unfortunately no temporary quick fix for this and right now I want to focus on maps that were planned beforehand for 1.4

Will update my other post soon with more pictures
EDIT: Updated.

[Shintroy]

I don't remember the name of the map, but the temple where you fight the steel giant could use some altering. I recommend just making it impossible to go into the temple so that the AI can't be affected by the underground targeting.

[Reks]

spoiler

[Barren]

What if for the temple we have the doors closed and both teams can start on the opposite sides of the pillars

[Reks]

What if for the temple we have the doors closed and both teams can start on the opposite sides of the pillars

I can try that, or I could simply leave the pillars as flattened and just close off the Temple entrance.

Dunno if I have the original Nelvaska map file. Might need to pester WKW for it.

[3lric]

"It does not seem like I can completely remove the teleporter. Apparently there is a version without it in the game, maybe it could load that map instead? If not, the map can still be playable, because it's essentially just obstructing the vision a bit. Alternately, the machine can remain there and be walked on, becoming 'Machine' terrain. Or someone else can figure out (I can't) how to make the game load the version of the map without the teleporter instead"

mess with the states or field objects in the attack.out editor to remove that

[Kurosabes]

Thanks Elric, that solved the issue! 

[Shintroy]

spoiler

as long as the AI can't go under the overhanging part it'll be fine otherwise we'll get some ranged attack, and item problems with the AI.

[Kurosabes]

Looked at all the maps a bit deeper. Initially it was only to sample the amount of panels that separate both teams, in order to have proper map size labels, but I've seen more than a few flaws and had to take notes. Here is what I generally consider map sizes to be:

Small: 8 panels or less
Medium: 7 to 14, can vary
Large: 13 or above

spoiler: Wrong labels

Wrong labels and what they should be. Underlined maps have potential to be larger, which cancels out my relabeling at the same time but actually makes them truely their size (only involves new starting positions for the majority of them). Striked out maps are arguably correct labels and so are candidates to be taken off this list. In the medium line, I've added colors: Maroon means they are currently large; green means they are currently small.

Small:
002 Gate of Lesalia
003 Hall of St.Murond
005 Roof of Riovanes
016 Inside of Limberry
019 Gate of Limberry (2)
021 Office of Zeltennia
031 Dorter Trade City
049 Fort Zeakden
075 Bervenia Volcano
077 Lenalia Plateau
091 Thieves Fort
105 TERMINATE
116 Arena

Medium:
004 Office of Lesalia
007 Hall of Riovanes
015 Gate of Limberry (1)
029 Colliery Mine F2
037 Ruins outside of Zaland
039 Underground Pass of Goland
044 Bervenia Free City
045 Ruins of Zeltennia Church
046 Cemetary of Balbanes
055 Graveyard of Airships
061 Orbonne Book Storage F5
071 Dolbodar Swamp
084 Bariaus Hill
087 Bariaus Valley
088 Finath River
089 Poeskas Lake
097 Lesalia Gate, Inside
098 Lesalia Gate, Outside
102 Tutorial 2
112 TIGER

Large:
009 Citadel of Igros
078 Zigolis Swamp


Others which have the right label but have larger potential:
022 Magic City Gariland - Large
025 Yardow Fort City - Medium
048 Zarghidas Slums - Large
058 Orbonne Book Storage F2 - Medium
083 Zirekile Falls - Medium

spoiler: Other notes

006 Gate of Riovanes - Bad starting positions for team 1

008 Office of Riovanes - Revised starting positions a bit.

010 Inside of Igros - Needs at least another geomancy

019 Gate of Limberry (2) - Middle platform obstructing the view and generally never used. Teams could start further away from each other

022 Magic City Gariland - Potential for a large map, if given new positions

024 Military Academy Auditorium - That platform on the side can cause problems with Jump, Item or units becoming unreachable

025 Yardow Fort City - Potential for a high tier medium

028, 029, 030 Colliery Mines and some Deep Dungeon maps - I feel that these maps are boring wastelands. I think there could be something to work with here.

037 Ruins outside of Zaland - Far from a large, but perhaps if positions were adjusted...

038 Goug Machine City - Even with the map rework I've done here, this map still has a few problems giving team 2 the advantage, such as guns somehow shooting through a house or general clutter.

039 Underground Pass of Goland - Despite how far away teams start from each other, it is too narrow to be considered large.

040 Goug Slums - Team 2 has a sniping avantage. This is more of an issue with Ignore Height being nearly omnipresent on Archers.

042 Warjilis Trade City - Team 1 has a sniping advantage

043 Warjilis Port - I remember talks about a double boat map, which is an existing map in another mod. Would make this more interesting because it's just a bottleneck right now and I never look forward to fight in this area.

045 Ruins of Zeltennia - Another technical medium, but easy to change positions just a bit and make it a true large

046 Cemetary of Balbanes - Nowhere close to large, it's barely a medium. Could be a semi-decent medium with a revision on starting positions

048 Zarghidas Slums - Teams could start much further away from each other; large potential

050 St.Murond church, outside - Team 1 has a sniping advantage

054 Lost Sacred Precincts - Bad starting positions and pointless gap

058 Orbonne Book Storage F2 - Potential to balance this into a larger map

060 Orbonne Book Storage F4 - Remove the arc, it obstructs the way and gives unfair sniping advantage

061 Orbonne Book Storage F5 - Some of the gaps could be filled, especially the centermost ones. Also, new starting positions to make this a true large?

065 Granary of Bethla - Such a mess, I can't even describe it.

070 Nelveska Temple - This map hasn't been modified yet, so it still presents some problems

072 Fovoham Plains - Slightly odd starting positions. Borderline small if we didn't count the upper area.

073 Inside Windmill Shed - I totally forgot to remove that wooden platform, will do so for the next major patch.

075 Bervenia Volcano - I feel that the starting positions could be changed. It's difficult for team 2 currently

077 Lenalia Plateau - An adjustment to starting positions may be necessary

078 Zigolis Swamp - Whoops, I accidentally brought back depth 2 swamp. I wasn't aware that all the depth 2 water had been removed from Arena. Will fix that next major patch along with the rest of my second map batch

081 Grog Hill - A little too clustered. Clustered is not good on small maps, easy AoE spells bait

083 Zirekile Falls - Maybe new starting positions to make it closer to, if not medium?

084 Bariaus Hills - Nowhere near large. I only say medium because the units have a lot of room to go around. Also, this could do with new positions.

086 Doguola Pass - See Grog Hill, but at least Grog Hill isn't one sided.

087 Bariaus Valley - Needs an extra stepping pillar or two

092 Beoulve Residence (table) - I've left a few maps with glitchy targeting, this is one of them.

095 Inside of Town Church - Weird starting positions for player 1

099 Lesialia Imperial Capital - Change positions for Player 1. That wall hugging leads to linear shenanigans

105 TERMINATE - Large!? This isn't even medium. It's one of those maps that could do with a new design

108 VOYAGE - Borderline large. Could be if the lower portion was more accessible

111 MALPAN - This is one of the maps that needed a make-over. I've tried a few models, but they weren't balanced enough, thus not making it into 140.

112 TIGER - Remove the middle column

113 HORROR - Change starting position for player 1

114 END - Add some walkable terrain to the lava crater, for two reasons. First, if a Geomancer is killed while in the crater, they might be irrecuperable. And second, the crater tends to split units up.

115 Banished Fort - A slight change to starting positions

[Gaignun]

I feel that not only the distance between starting positions, but also the total number of traversible tiles determines map size.  For example, in Gate of Lesalia, teams have the ability to disperse into either moat; in Lenalia Plateau, teams tend to fight atop the hill, but retreat toward the water.  Heavy AoE teams will perform much worse in these wide maps than in confined ones like the Pub.

Arena could be a medium map if we start teams at opposite corners.

Concerning large maps, we should be careful not to relabel too many as medium.  The pool of large maps is small enough as it is. And considering that tournament map order is typically small->large->medium, the medium maps tend to be underplayed.  Not every large map can feel as big as Zeklaus Desert.

[Kurosabes]

Well yes, but in Lenalia Plateau they are way too close to each other. If the first team moves back a bit (which it should), I'd probably agree it's a medium.


I've edited my original post to reflect the feedback on large maps (the net loss of large maps becomes 1). I'll think about mediums after I do a tally of the map counts