Poll
Uh.... woo boy. Needs far more linearity, imo. I actually made the mistake of drawing this out on paper, and I need to do this in 3-D and then MAYBE I won't run into massive line conflict.
Let's look at the Geomancer, for example.
The real reqs are:
Geomancer - 2 Squire, 2 Knight, 2 Oracle, 2 Archer, 3 Cantor, 2 Chemist, 2 Invoker 2 Monk.
By relation, that's more unlocking, job wise, than either Dancer or Bard in classic FFT, and far more difficult to comprehend.
What I suggest is a hex/triangular job tree. I really like this design, though you may want to swap a few jobs around. I did my best to keep them to their old reqs, but obviously some flex had to happen.
Tier 1:
Base
Teir 2:
Knight = 2 base
Invoker = 2 base
Archer = 2 base
Teir 3:
Cantor = 3 Base + 2 Invoker + 2 Knight
Traveler = 3 Base + 2 Archer + 2 Invoker
Monk = 3 Base + 2 Knight + 2 Archer
Teir 4:
Oracle = 3 Cantor + 3 Invoker
Chemist = 3 Invoker + 3 Traveler
Appraiser = 3 Traveler + 3 Archer
Gambler = 3 Archer + 3 Monk
Geomancer = 3 Monk + 3 Knight
Blue Mage = 3 Knight + 3 Cantor
Teir 5:
Summoner = 4 Cantor + 3 Oracle + 3 Blue Mage
Time Mage = 4 Invoker + 3 Oracle + 3 Chemist
Mediator = 4 Archer + 3 Appraiser + 3 Gambler
Dragoon = 4 Monk + 3 Geomancer + 3 Gambler
Teir 6:
Red Mage = 5 Oracle + 4 Summoner + 5 Time Mage + 7 Knight
Hussein = 5 Gambler + 4 Dragoon + 4 Mediator + 7 Traveler
Obviously the magic classes will warrant some swapping because half of your red mage description was "not TM and not summoner", but I polarized it at the end between magic and physical stuff.
Edit: Similarly, you can make the RM a composite of Knight, Blue Mage, and Geomancer and the HESSAIN a composite of Traveler, Chemist, and Appraiser. Though neither seem to really fit.
Agreed.
imo:
Tertiary Class
Warder - 4 Knight
Gambler - 4 Traveler
-------------------------
Composite Class
Reliquian - 3 Knight, 3 Invoker
Blue Mage - 3 Cantor, 3 Traveler
EsperBlades - 3 Cantor, 3 Invoker
Archer - 3 Knight, 3 Traveler
(Trancer) - 3 Knight, 3 Traveler, 3 Invoker, 3 Cantor -- (maybe even extend to 2/3 Reliq/BM/Esp/Arc!~).
Advanced Composite Class
Inquisitor - 4 Warder, 4 Reliquian
Dragoon - 4 Gambler, 4 Blue Mage
Arbalist - 6 Archer
Hmz...
I had intended on having it be Reliq + BM + Arch + Esp, but it was a bit harder to draw in that overlap. Though your idea works just as well, and its easier to depict graphically.
Haha BS is in the middle
A little, yes >_>
To get Red Mage, you don't have to touch the archer, arbalest, gambler, or dragoon.
To get Hessain, you dont to touch the esperblade, reliquarian, or inquisitor jobs.
This is a result of the arbalest's placement on the job tree, but job level prereqs can be tweaked to make them require the same net JP or somesuch.
That would be a great alternative!
That sounds about right, the only thing I see being different from 1.3 and Mercenaries is the focus on only two units, rather then up to 16. that shouldn't effect things too adversely, unlike 1.3 "Studies" (Propositions), can only be performed by a single NPC Guest Unit, rather then every generic. Regardless it should still be about the same.
That is true and a definite concern... I like the idea to bump them to 3 for the starter classes.
I really like this new job level chart and will apply it immediately.
Good point, very good point on the Trancer... let's see... perhaps 1 Warder and Gambler might work? Though that would lead some to believe that the Trancer is a Physical only class, hmm... how about another making it another secondary job? 4 Traveler, 4 Invoker? The Invoker and Traveler are both pretty quirky character traited job classes, I could see training in both fulminating in the warrior ground sensing freaks that are Trancers.
I love it, except for the Trancer.
IMO, I agree with LD's opinion on the Traveler, Invoker.
That should make the Trancer, a special tertiary class.
So,
Trancer should be:
4 Monk, 4 Scryer, 4 Traveler or Knight, 4 Invoker or Cantor.
or..
4 Monk, 4 Scryer, 2 Traveler, 2 Knight, 2 Invoker and 2 Cantor??
This. 2 across the board is pretty weak, as described above.
4/4/4/4 is 2400 JP total needed. Not too bad for a composite class.
As far as which class combo, we've got:
Knight/Cantor
Traveler/Invoker
to pick from. Of these I find traveler/invoker to fit a lot better.
Question: (Read Post Below) Should Job Acquirement be Split into Chapter/Patches?
Option 1: Yes. (Reason Please)
votes: 6
Option 2: No. (Reason Please)
votes: 2
Title: Job Tree Layout (UPDATE! Your Opinion Needed!) POLL!
Post by: LastingDawn on November 19, 2008, 12:14:24 am
Post by: LastingDawn on November 19, 2008, 12:14:24 am
Hmm, I've come across a bit of a concern. Which I think I will need some feedback to help with. I plan on not allowing the player to obtain all the jobs at the start of the game, meaning that I don't want people using Hessian and Red Mage as soon as Chapter 2 comes about. Though also I don't want All of the advanced classes to be used in the first chapter. Here was my idea for a split...
All of the Base (well of course), all of the Secondary, and all of the Composite Class will be available in Chapter 1. With at the start of Chapter 2 all of the Advanced Composite and Tertiary classes will open up Except for Red Mage and Hessian. I plan on those opening up in the Chapter 3 Patch.
Now there are some pros and cons to this system no matter which decision is made. My worry is that people will become bored if they unlock All the classes in the first patch and there will be very little to drive them forward for the rest of the patches/chapters. Also in Chapter 1 some classes themselves are hardly usable because of the lack of usable equipment available in that patch.
For instance, Warder's first weapon isn't available until Level 25, which the max level of equipment in Patch 1 is Level 22 and all of the Level 20+ equipment is considered "rare" for that patch.
The cons of this setup is it stifles creativity on the part of the player. It doesn't allow as much customization as would be possible ordinarily.
So I leave it to you. I will leave a poll up for a week and Please if you do Vote, please post a reasoning of why you voted one way or another, thank you for all the help you may give in refuting or supporting this decision that depends solely on your votes.
All of the Base (well of course), all of the Secondary, and all of the Composite Class will be available in Chapter 1. With at the start of Chapter 2 all of the Advanced Composite and Tertiary classes will open up Except for Red Mage and Hessian. I plan on those opening up in the Chapter 3 Patch.
Now there are some pros and cons to this system no matter which decision is made. My worry is that people will become bored if they unlock All the classes in the first patch and there will be very little to drive them forward for the rest of the patches/chapters. Also in Chapter 1 some classes themselves are hardly usable because of the lack of usable equipment available in that patch.
For instance, Warder's first weapon isn't available until Level 25, which the max level of equipment in Patch 1 is Level 22 and all of the Level 20+ equipment is considered "rare" for that patch.
The cons of this setup is it stifles creativity on the part of the player. It doesn't allow as much customization as would be possible ordinarily.
So I leave it to you. I will leave a poll up for a week and Please if you do Vote, please post a reasoning of why you voted one way or another, thank you for all the help you may give in refuting or supporting this decision that depends solely on your votes.
Quote from: "Philsov"Start Base
---------
Monk - 1 Base (100)
Scryer - 1 Base (100)
Secondary Class
Invoker - 3 Scryer (450)
Cantor - 3 Scryer (450)
Knight - 3 Monk (450)
Traveler - 3 Monk (450)
Tertiary Class
Warder - 4 Knight (1250)
Gambler - 4 Traveler (1250)
Trancer - 2 Invoker, 2 Knight, 2 Traveler, 2 Cantor (1200)
Composite Class
Reliquian - 3 Knight, 3 Invoker (1600)
Blue Mage - 3 Cantor, 3 Traveler (1600)
EsperBlades - 3 Cantor, 3 Invoker (1600)
Archer - 3 Knight, 3 Traveler (1600)
Advanced Composite Class
Inquisitor - 4 Warder, 4 Reliquian (3950)
Dragoon - 4 Gambler, 4 Blue Mage (3950)
Arbalist - 6 Archer (2750)
Master Class
Hessian - 4 Dragoon, 4 Warder, 8 Arbalist (10000)
Red Mage - 4 Inquisitor, 4 Blue Mage, 8 EsperBlade (10350)
Title:
Post by: boomkick on November 19, 2008, 01:09:46 am
Post by: boomkick on November 19, 2008, 01:09:46 am
Knight 2 Base
Archer 2 Base
Chemist 2 Base
------------------------
Invoker- 3 Chemist
Cantor- 3 Chemist
------------------------
Oracle- 4 Chemist, 3 Invoker, 3 Cantor
Monk- 4 Knight, 3 Archer
------------------------
Geomancer- 3 Monk, 2 Invoker, 2 Cantor
Traveler- 4 Archer, 3 Cantor, 3 Base
Mediator- 6 Cantor, 4 Base
Dragoon- 8 Knight, 8 Base
-------------------------
Blue Mage- 4 Base, 8 Chemist, 6 Invoker, 6 Cantor, 6 Oracle
Gambler- 8 Base, 6 Knight, 6 Monk, 6 Archer
?Appraiser?- 8 Traveler
-------------------------
Hessian- 8 Base, 5 Chemist, 4 Knight, 3 Archer, 6 Monk, 7 Traveler, 5 Mediator, 6 Geomancer, 6 Appraiser
-------------------------
Red Mage- 8 Blue Mage, 8 Chemist, 8 Invoker, 8 Cantor, 8 Oracle, 6 ???, 6 ???, 4 Geomancer
Archer 2 Base
Chemist 2 Base
------------------------
Invoker- 3 Chemist
Cantor- 3 Chemist
------------------------
Oracle- 4 Chemist, 3 Invoker, 3 Cantor
Monk- 4 Knight, 3 Archer
------------------------
Geomancer- 3 Monk, 2 Invoker, 2 Cantor
Traveler- 4 Archer, 3 Cantor, 3 Base
Mediator- 6 Cantor, 4 Base
Dragoon- 8 Knight, 8 Base
-------------------------
Blue Mage- 4 Base, 8 Chemist, 6 Invoker, 6 Cantor, 6 Oracle
Gambler- 8 Base, 6 Knight, 6 Monk, 6 Archer
?Appraiser?- 8 Traveler
-------------------------
Hessian- 8 Base, 5 Chemist, 4 Knight, 3 Archer, 6 Monk, 7 Traveler, 5 Mediator, 6 Geomancer, 6 Appraiser
-------------------------
Red Mage- 8 Blue Mage, 8 Chemist, 8 Invoker, 8 Cantor, 8 Oracle, 6 ???, 6 ???, 4 Geomancer
Title:
Post by: philsov on November 19, 2008, 01:33:06 am
Post by: philsov on November 19, 2008, 01:33:06 am
Uh.... woo boy. Needs far more linearity, imo. I actually made the mistake of drawing this out on paper, and I need to do this in 3-D and then MAYBE I won't run into massive line conflict.
Let's look at the Geomancer, for example.
The real reqs are:
Geomancer - 2 Squire, 2 Knight, 2 Oracle, 2 Archer, 3 Cantor, 2 Chemist, 2 Invoker 2 Monk.
By relation, that's more unlocking, job wise, than either Dancer or Bard in classic FFT, and far more difficult to comprehend.
What I suggest is a hex/triangular job tree. I really like this design, though you may want to swap a few jobs around. I did my best to keep them to their old reqs, but obviously some flex had to happen.
Tier 1:
Base
Teir 2:
Knight = 2 base
Invoker = 2 base
Archer = 2 base
Teir 3:
Cantor = 3 Base + 2 Invoker + 2 Knight
Traveler = 3 Base + 2 Archer + 2 Invoker
Monk = 3 Base + 2 Knight + 2 Archer
Teir 4:
Oracle = 3 Cantor + 3 Invoker
Chemist = 3 Invoker + 3 Traveler
Appraiser = 3 Traveler + 3 Archer
Gambler = 3 Archer + 3 Monk
Geomancer = 3 Monk + 3 Knight
Blue Mage = 3 Knight + 3 Cantor
Teir 5:
Summoner = 4 Cantor + 3 Oracle + 3 Blue Mage
Time Mage = 4 Invoker + 3 Oracle + 3 Chemist
Mediator = 4 Archer + 3 Appraiser + 3 Gambler
Dragoon = 4 Monk + 3 Geomancer + 3 Gambler
Teir 6:
Red Mage = 5 Oracle + 4 Summoner + 5 Time Mage + 7 Knight
Hussein = 5 Gambler + 4 Dragoon + 4 Mediator + 7 Traveler
Obviously the magic classes will warrant some swapping because half of your red mage description was "not TM and not summoner", but I polarized it at the end between magic and physical stuff.
Edit: Similarly, you can make the RM a composite of Knight, Blue Mage, and Geomancer and the HESSAIN a composite of Traveler, Chemist, and Appraiser. Though neither seem to really fit.
Title:
Post by: boomkick on November 19, 2008, 01:34:52 am
Post by: boomkick on November 19, 2008, 01:34:52 am
Quote from: "philsov"...Hussein =[.../quote]
LOLCAKES
Title:
Post by: philsov on November 19, 2008, 01:46:35 am
Post by: philsov on November 19, 2008, 01:46:35 am
Quote from: "boomkick"Quote from: "philsov"...Hussein =[.../quote]
LOLCAKES
Title:
Post by: LastingDawn on November 19, 2008, 01:51:44 am
Post by: LastingDawn on November 19, 2008, 01:51:44 am
Truly great ideas! Also, I am surprised it was even Possible to make a "tree" out of this thing, you are a very clever person, Philsov, truly quite clever. I cannot fathom how long it took you to make that chart... you truly have a knack for this, and yes, I agree 100% that this was needed to make things even slightly playable, as it was before, you needed to step into several magic classes to even Touch another physical one! I am very glad you made this chart, and it will definitely supply a great template for the final, were you good in math by chance?
Title:
Post by: philsov on November 19, 2008, 02:00:26 am
Post by: philsov on November 19, 2008, 02:00:26 am
I always enjoy a good logic puzzle 
More scientist by trade/study, though. But I enjoy math all the same.
If you compress the tree it'd look like a color wheel O.o
More scientist by trade/study, though. But I enjoy math all the same.
If you compress the tree it'd look like a color wheel O.o
Title:
Post by: Archael on November 19, 2008, 10:39:23 am
Post by: Archael on November 19, 2008, 10:39:23 am
(http://www.ffhacktics.com/forum/files/mercjobtree_153.png)
hey
that looks like my ex gf when she wakes up
you have truly captured her "essence" phil
no but seriously looks good gj
hey
that looks like my ex gf when she wakes up
you have truly captured her "essence" phil
no but seriously looks good gj
Title:
Post by: LastingDawn on March 03, 2009, 08:25:48 am
Post by: LastingDawn on March 03, 2009, 08:25:48 am
Alright, Philsov! Now that the set is just about complete I really need your help in making this job tree look like... anything presentable to... anyone.
Scryer
Invoker
Cantor
Archer
Monk
Knight
Blue Mage
Warder
Arbalist
Reliquian
Gambler
EsperBlade
Traveler
Inquisitor
Dragoon
Hessian
Red Mage
Scryer
Invoker
Cantor
Archer
Monk
Knight
Blue Mage
Warder
Arbalist
Reliquian
Gambler
EsperBlade
Traveler
Inquisitor
Dragoon
Hessian
Red Mage
Title:
Post by: philsov on March 06, 2009, 01:24:25 pm
Post by: philsov on March 06, 2009, 01:24:25 pm
Give me some time to read over the class descriptions and get a rough idea on tier placement and whatnot!
Title:
Post by: Dokurider on March 06, 2009, 01:29:20 pm
Post by: Dokurider on March 06, 2009, 01:29:20 pm
(http://www.ffhacktics.com/forum/files/mercjobtree_153.png)
Does it really have to be a hex tree? It looks like a nuclear meltdown in the process.
Does it really have to be a hex tree? It looks like a nuclear meltdown in the process.
Title:
Post by: philsov on March 06, 2009, 01:34:10 pm
Post by: philsov on March 06, 2009, 01:34:10 pm
LD's initial one was only visible in 3D, if that's any solace.
After looking at the pic again I'm leaning toward more linear job progression... all this composite stuff is a total PAIN. To go from Oracle to Time Mage in the old version you'd need to go back through Archer/Traveler/Chemist.
After looking at the pic again I'm leaning toward more linear job progression... all this composite stuff is a total PAIN. To go from Oracle to Time Mage in the old version you'd need to go back through Archer/Traveler/Chemist.
Title:
Post by: philsov on March 06, 2009, 01:44:43 pm
Post by: philsov on March 06, 2009, 01:44:43 pm
and most importantly, what IS/ARE the base class(es)?
Title:
Post by: LastingDawn on March 07, 2009, 02:01:16 pm
Post by: LastingDawn on March 07, 2009, 02:01:16 pm
I could have Sworn I posted a reply in this topic! All of them are in the initial request for help to you, excluding Red Mage and Hessian.
Title:
Post by: philsov on March 08, 2009, 07:03:54 pm
Post by: philsov on March 08, 2009, 07:03:54 pm
ok, I went a little more linear this go-round.
I went with Monk and Scryer being the base classes... seem rather fitting to the whole merc idea. I gathered some general information on the class threads with names on them, and then the oracle thread. Most of the pre-reqs and parent classes seem rather fitting (I really like the inq -> Red Mage, but it might be more fitting for inq -> Hes and Relic -> RM instead of Relic -> Hes. dunno)), all while maintaining a decent grasp on cleanliness, accuracy, and symmetry.
This of course seems just a little too similar to the original FFT tree, and I'm currently working on a newer design (with a few more composite lines), but here's draft number one.
I went with Monk and Scryer being the base classes... seem rather fitting to the whole merc idea. I gathered some general information on the class threads with names on them, and then the oracle thread. Most of the pre-reqs and parent classes seem rather fitting (I really like the inq -> Red Mage, but it might be more fitting for inq -> Hes and Relic -> RM instead of Relic -> Hes. dunno)), all while maintaining a decent grasp on cleanliness, accuracy, and symmetry.
This of course seems just a little too similar to the original FFT tree, and I'm currently working on a newer design (with a few more composite lines), but here's draft number one.
Title:
Post by: philsov on March 08, 2009, 07:42:04 pm
Post by: philsov on March 08, 2009, 07:42:04 pm
ok, this job tree has roughly the same 6-class base, then things start to shift some. Everything's a little more composite here.
Title:
Post by: LastingDawn on March 08, 2009, 08:59:40 pm
Post by: LastingDawn on March 08, 2009, 08:59:40 pm
Ah, looks good, only thing it's missing is the Trancer, (Which is now the Geomancer's replacement), aside from that though it looks 100% solid! The class is PA/MA based, just like the old Geomancer, thank you for all your help, Philsov!
Title:
Post by: LastingDawn on March 08, 2009, 10:45:05 pm
Post by: LastingDawn on March 08, 2009, 10:45:05 pm
Alright, now one thing I've noticed that FFT doesn't do is accumulate the job classes, now this is an odd practice... Now this is explanatory as the normal job classes really didn't take a lot to get to. Though this will be changed in Mercenaries with the practice being a bit more... practical, so to speak.
Alright, let's start off...
(Based on Philsov's chart...)
Start Base
---------
Monk - 2 Base
Scryer - 2 Base
----------------------
Secondary Class
Invoker - 2 Scryer
Cantor - 2 Scryer
----------------------
Knight - 2 Monk
Traveler - 2 Monk
-------------------
Tertiary Class
Warder - 5 Knight
Gambler - 5 Traveler
-------------------------
Composite Class
Reliquian - 4 Knight, 4 Invoker
Blue Mage - 4 Cantor, 4 Traveler
EsperBlades - 3 Cantor, 3 Invoker
---------------------------
Archer - 3 Knight, 3 Traveler
---------------------------
Advanced Composite Class
Inquisitor - 6 Warder, 6 Reliquian
-------------------------------
Dragoon - 6 Gambler, 6 Blue Mage
Arbalist - 7 Archer
--------------------------------------
Master Class
Hessian - 4 Dragoon, 4 Warder, 8 Arbalist
----------------
Red Mage - 4 Inquisitor, 4 Blue Mage, 8 EsperBlade
--------------------------------------------------------
Of course without going through the semantics and what it takes to reach each and everyone, it takes a bit more time to reach Hessian then it will Red Mage. Well, I hope that this has been informative, though I am a slight biit concerned that it's all still a bit too high, any thoughts?
Alright, let's start off...
(Based on Philsov's chart...)
Start Base
---------
Monk - 2 Base
Scryer - 2 Base
----------------------
Secondary Class
Invoker - 2 Scryer
Cantor - 2 Scryer
----------------------
Knight - 2 Monk
Traveler - 2 Monk
-------------------
Tertiary Class
Warder - 5 Knight
Gambler - 5 Traveler
-------------------------
Composite Class
Reliquian - 4 Knight, 4 Invoker
Blue Mage - 4 Cantor, 4 Traveler
EsperBlades - 3 Cantor, 3 Invoker
---------------------------
Archer - 3 Knight, 3 Traveler
---------------------------
Advanced Composite Class
Inquisitor - 6 Warder, 6 Reliquian
-------------------------------
Dragoon - 6 Gambler, 6 Blue Mage
Arbalist - 7 Archer
--------------------------------------
Master Class
Hessian - 4 Dragoon, 4 Warder, 8 Arbalist
----------------
Red Mage - 4 Inquisitor, 4 Blue Mage, 8 EsperBlade
--------------------------------------------------------
Of course without going through the semantics and what it takes to reach each and everyone, it takes a bit more time to reach Hessian then it will Red Mage. Well, I hope that this has been informative, though I am a slight biit concerned that it's all still a bit too high, any thoughts?
Title:
Post by: philsov on March 08, 2009, 11:25:13 pm
Post by: philsov on March 08, 2009, 11:25:13 pm
You didn't include trancer in your list! :'(
But mixed PA/MA job that draws from all the classes? Sounds like a nice composite class to meeeeee.
But mixed PA/MA job that draws from all the classes? Sounds like a nice composite class to meeeeee.
Title:
Post by: philsov on March 08, 2009, 11:30:43 pm
Post by: philsov on March 08, 2009, 11:30:43 pm
Quotethough I am a slight biit concerned that it's all still a bit too high, any thoughts?
Agreed.
imo:
Tertiary Class
Warder - 4 Knight
Gambler - 4 Traveler
-------------------------
Composite Class
Reliquian - 3 Knight, 3 Invoker
Blue Mage - 3 Cantor, 3 Traveler
EsperBlades - 3 Cantor, 3 Invoker
Archer - 3 Knight, 3 Traveler
(Trancer) - 3 Knight, 3 Traveler, 3 Invoker, 3 Cantor -- (maybe even extend to 2/3 Reliq/BM/Esp/Arc!~).
Advanced Composite Class
Inquisitor - 4 Warder, 4 Reliquian
Dragoon - 4 Gambler, 4 Blue Mage
Arbalist - 6 Archer
Hmz...
Title:
Post by: LastingDawn on March 08, 2009, 11:57:03 pm
Post by: LastingDawn on March 08, 2009, 11:57:03 pm
Excellent, that seems quite a lineup, I had noticed though that in the chart it shows Trancer in the middle with Scryer and Monk attached to it, should that mean that it takes 4 Monk and Scryer in inclusion to 2 Reliquian and 2 Blue Mage? It would give a reason to indulge back into the beginning classes. Well, besides then that they're both quite interesting. Also it would make sense that the basics would have the knowledge needed to observe other classes well.
Title:
Post by: boomkick on March 09, 2009, 12:03:37 am
Post by: boomkick on March 09, 2009, 12:03:37 am
Interesting, looks solid philsov.
Title:
Post by: philsov on March 09, 2009, 12:21:16 am
Post by: philsov on March 09, 2009, 12:21:16 am
QuoteExcellent, that seems quite a lineup, I had noticed though that in the chart it shows Trancer in the middle with Scryer and Monk attached to it, should that mean that it takes 4 Monk and Scryer in inclusion to 2 Reliquian and 2 Blue Mage? It would give a reason to indulge back into the beginning classes.
I had intended on having it be Reliq + BM + Arch + Esp, but it was a bit harder to draw in that overlap. Though your idea works just as well, and its easier to depict graphically.
Title:
Post by: LastingDawn on March 09, 2009, 08:11:29 am
Post by: LastingDawn on March 09, 2009, 08:11:29 am
One thing I positively love about this job tree is neither are full MA and PA, like FFT, you've mixed and matched the trees very well! Blue Mage and Gambler for Dragoon was a Stroke of genuis! Haha! Once again I am in awe of your math skills.
Title:
Post by: RamzaBot on April 11, 2009, 07:40:43 pm
Post by: RamzaBot on April 11, 2009, 07:40:43 pm
That is an intense tree diagram. I'm new to this site really. But is there a thread for the classifications of the jobs.
I know it's a work in progress but it looks like you have the foundation already. I'm just interested in what the jobs do for now, and later I'll check in to what they can do later on. Any help would be appreciated as always. Thanks.
I know it's a work in progress but it looks like you have the foundation already. I'm just interested in what the jobs do for now, and later I'll check in to what they can do later on. Any help would be appreciated as always. Thanks.
Title:
Post by: LastingDawn on April 12, 2009, 01:48:36 pm
Post by: LastingDawn on April 12, 2009, 01:48:36 pm
Indeed, all of the threads (except for Dragoon and Traveler) have their own threads, scattered about.
Title:
Post by: RamzaBot on April 14, 2009, 04:53:57 pm
Post by: RamzaBot on April 14, 2009, 04:53:57 pm
Thank you. I'll keep popping in and out. See what's going on.
Title:
Post by: warrioroflight on July 29, 2009, 12:11:16 pm
Post by: warrioroflight on July 29, 2009, 12:11:16 pm
Quote from: "Voldemort"(http://www.ffhacktics.com/forum/files/mercjobtree_153.png)
Haha BS is in the middle
Title:
Post by: MiKeMiTchi on August 07, 2009, 07:25:02 am
Post by: MiKeMiTchi on August 07, 2009, 07:25:02 am
I have come up with my own suggestion for the Job Tree.
//List of Jobs according to (PA, MA)
//According to 'level'
//Here's what I suggest:
With this, the player can unlock the 'Master Jobs' in
an equal number of level reached whether the player chooses
to unlock Hessian or Red Mage. Same goes to the most jobs
in the each level.
Note*
{n} = min. number needed for job change
PRIMARY JOBS
-------
{0}Monk - Base
{0}Scryer - Base
SECONDARY JOBS
-------
{2}Invoker - 2 Scryer
{2}Cantor - 2 Scryer
{2}Knight - 2 Monk
{2}Traveler - 2 Monk
TERTIARY JOBS
-------
{7}Warder - 5 Knight
{7}Gambler - 5 Traveler
COMPOSITE JOBS
-------
{10}Archer - 4 Knight, 4 Traveler
{10}Reliquian - 4 Knight, 2 Invoker
{10}Blue Mage - 4 Cantor, 2 Traveler
{10}EsperBlade - 4 Cantor, 4 Invoker
ADVANCED JOB
-------
{18}Arbalist - 8 Archer
ADVANCED COMPOSITE JOBS
-------
{27}Inquisitor - 5 Warder, 5 Reliquian
{27}Dragoon - 5 Gambler, 5 Blue Mage
MASTER JOBS
-------
{65}Hessian - 3 Warder, 5 Dragoon, 5 Arbalist
(71 in the original)(by Sir LD)
{65}Red Mage - 6 Inquisitor, 6 Blue Mage, 6 EsperBlade
(69 in the original)(by Sir LD)
SPECIAL JOB
-------
{20}Trancer - 4 Invoker, 4 Cantor, 4 Knight, 4 Traveler
~;;~
What do you guys think about this?
//List of Jobs according to (PA, MA)
QuotePA based ( 10 )
Monk
Knight
Traveler
Warder
Gambler
Archer
Dragoon
Arbalist
Hessian
Reliquian
MA based ( 8 )
Scryer
Invoker
Cantor
Inquisitor
Red Mage
Blue Mage
EsperBlade
Trancer
//According to 'level'
//Here's what I suggest:
With this, the player can unlock the 'Master Jobs' in
an equal number of level reached whether the player chooses
to unlock Hessian or Red Mage. Same goes to the most jobs
in the each level.
Note*
{n} = min. number needed for job change
PRIMARY JOBS
-------
{0}Monk - Base
{0}Scryer - Base
SECONDARY JOBS
-------
{2}Invoker - 2 Scryer
{2}Cantor - 2 Scryer
{2}Knight - 2 Monk
{2}Traveler - 2 Monk
TERTIARY JOBS
-------
{7}Warder - 5 Knight
{7}Gambler - 5 Traveler
COMPOSITE JOBS
-------
{10}Archer - 4 Knight, 4 Traveler
{10}Reliquian - 4 Knight, 2 Invoker
{10}Blue Mage - 4 Cantor, 2 Traveler
{10}EsperBlade - 4 Cantor, 4 Invoker
ADVANCED JOB
-------
{18}Arbalist - 8 Archer
ADVANCED COMPOSITE JOBS
-------
{27}Inquisitor - 5 Warder, 5 Reliquian
{27}Dragoon - 5 Gambler, 5 Blue Mage
MASTER JOBS
-------
{65}Hessian - 3 Warder, 5 Dragoon, 5 Arbalist
(71 in the original)(by Sir LD)
{65}Red Mage - 6 Inquisitor, 6 Blue Mage, 6 EsperBlade
(69 in the original)(by Sir LD)
SPECIAL JOB
-------
{20}Trancer - 4 Invoker, 4 Cantor, 4 Knight, 4 Traveler
~;;~
What do you guys think about this?
Title:
Post by: LastingDawn on August 07, 2009, 12:11:33 pm
Post by: LastingDawn on August 07, 2009, 12:11:33 pm
Really nothing has passed the need for more then four in any Job Class, this is to cut down on redundancy. Also there's a slight screw up in that... Traveler is Speed + MA Based class, it's partially PA based in some of it's Rust skills, but nothing beyond that. It is meant to be a Mage-Thief combination. Other then that the chart looks optimal now for the job tree as suggested... it doesn't quite work with Traveler on the wrong side of the equation, Dragoon is also more of a Hybrid rather then a straight PA class, as is the Reliquian, but that relies more on PA then MA.
8 for any one job is a bit... absurd. Also you saw Philsov's chart on the first page, right? Did that have an uneven way to Hessian/Red Mage?
8 for any one job is a bit... absurd. Also you saw Philsov's chart on the first page, right? Did that have an uneven way to Hessian/Red Mage?
Title:
Post by: MiKeMiTchi on August 07, 2009, 12:34:53 pm
Post by: MiKeMiTchi on August 07, 2009, 12:34:53 pm
I get your point, there.
Yup, the chart is great.
Well somehow, because it'll be easier to unlock the Hessian Job.. *I think*
Well, I haven't played FFT that much.. so yeah..
I'll need more experience first..
Yup, the chart is great.
Well somehow, because it'll be easier to unlock the Hessian Job.. *I think*
Well, I haven't played FFT that much.. so yeah..
I'll need more experience first..
Title:
Post by: philsov on August 12, 2009, 10:02:49 am
Post by: philsov on August 12, 2009, 10:02:49 am
QuoteDid that have an uneven way to Hessian/Red Mage?
A little, yes >_>
To get Red Mage, you don't have to touch the archer, arbalest, gambler, or dragoon.
To get Hessain, you dont to touch the esperblade, reliquarian, or inquisitor jobs.
This is a result of the arbalest's placement on the job tree, but job level prereqs can be tweaked to make them require the same net JP or somesuch.
Title:
Post by: MiKeMiTchi on August 12, 2009, 11:31:56 am
Post by: MiKeMiTchi on August 12, 2009, 11:31:56 am
QuoteThis is a result of the arbalest's placement on the job tree, but job level prereqs can be tweaked to make them require the same net JP or somesuch.
That would be a great alternative!
Title:
Post by: LastingDawn on August 15, 2009, 09:43:47 pm
Post by: LastingDawn on August 15, 2009, 09:43:47 pm
Hmm... what did you have in mind Philsov? It is a good idea though.
Title:
Post by: philsov on August 23, 2009, 09:02:43 pm
Post by: philsov on August 23, 2009, 09:02:43 pm
TL:DR - See 2nd spoiler for my suggestions, tweak as desired.
Well....
Forgive my frames of reference, I'm far more versed in 1.3 FFT than mercenaries. This'll also bring up some discussion about job reqs in general.
In a normal style of play, that is... about half of the propositions done, a few randoms, and maybe 2 additional rounds of action at the end of some battles, you can get:
4th tier jobs like geomancer or mediator at the start of chapter 2, meaning about 1200 JP acquired at that point (750 earned with 450 thanks to starter bonuses).
Composite classes like samurai/ninja/sage/bard/dancer at the end of chap 2 / start of chap 3 -- meaning a total of about 3000 JP at that time -- 2100 earned and 900 starter bonuses.
Meanwhile, a 1.3 mime is usually born from normal means right before the home stretch at Orbonne. 1.3 Mime is job level 6, in 16 jobs, meaning... 18400 JP arrived at through the course of the game (16000 JP earned, 2400 given). Though it should be noted that JP gains are higher as both job level and experience level also go up. Also JP sharing was exercised by the rest of the party.
And using my current 1.3 game as a reference, I'm in early chapter 4 with an average of 8000 JP among my main people.
Assuming that Mercenaries will have roughly the same length as 1.3 in terms of number of battles and average length of battles, this means these ultimate classes should be unlocked at about... 14000 JP. This would be decidedly end-game level stuff but you're also given enough time to actually play with the classes.
Under your initial proposal...
Which, really isn't too far off target. Nice shot. They both have definite endgame net JP pre-reqs, and they're rather close together because Warder takes less to unlock that Blue Mage, which somewhat offsets the additional arbalist job over on the hessain side of the tree.
However, taking a page from 1.3 here... I don't think job level 2 is sufficient for anything except maybe out of the dummy base class, though 1 may just suffice there tbh. Thanks to the starter bonus of 100-199 JP, getting up to 200 JP is doing one single action if you're lucky. That is nowhere near enough time to sit in a class before advancing forward.
If we ratchet up those starter classes to 3, and make the dummy base 1 here's the offset is completely negligible (Hessain's looking at 13000 JP, maybe).
It's a very tight wire to cross -- you want all the classes to be experienced and maybe hopefully stayed in even after their pre-req is completed, but the later classes shouldn't be so far out of reach that one would have to purposely grind in order to even play with them. With that in mind, I think a more proper goal with the final classes is 10000 JP, or maybe even less. That mime I spoke of earlier never was any job in which is was already level 6 in, and I'd hate to see the same fate befall any of these great classes, especially trancer, because with regards to the final class that can be ignored entirely.
Which leads to my initial suggestion line:
OK, 350 variance. Oh noes. I had forgotten about warder being simpler than blue mage when discussing the arbalist. Even if you think level 8 on those jobs is too high for the master classes, you can easily make them anything less and be fine. The bulk of the JP comes from all the other classes anyways, so they'd be reduced to all of... 9000 JP? Still plenty high but within reach.
Oh, and I think trancer needs to be trimmed. I like the 4 monk/scryer bit, but even if we go 1 Reliq and 1 BM that's still ~4500 JP. That might work?
Well....
Forgive my frames of reference, I'm far more versed in 1.3 FFT than mercenaries. This'll also bring up some discussion about job reqs in general.
In a normal style of play, that is... about half of the propositions done, a few randoms, and maybe 2 additional rounds of action at the end of some battles, you can get:
4th tier jobs like geomancer or mediator at the start of chapter 2, meaning about 1200 JP acquired at that point (750 earned with 450 thanks to starter bonuses).
Composite classes like samurai/ninja/sage/bard/dancer at the end of chap 2 / start of chap 3 -- meaning a total of about 3000 JP at that time -- 2100 earned and 900 starter bonuses.
Meanwhile, a 1.3 mime is usually born from normal means right before the home stretch at Orbonne. 1.3 Mime is job level 6, in 16 jobs, meaning... 18400 JP arrived at through the course of the game (16000 JP earned, 2400 given). Though it should be noted that JP gains are higher as both job level and experience level also go up. Also JP sharing was exercised by the rest of the party.
And using my current 1.3 game as a reference, I'm in early chapter 4 with an average of 8000 JP among my main people.
Assuming that Mercenaries will have roughly the same length as 1.3 in terms of number of battles and average length of battles, this means these ultimate classes should be unlocked at about... 14000 JP. This would be decidedly end-game level stuff but you're also given enough time to actually play with the classes.
Under your initial proposal...
Start Base
---------
Monk - 2 Base (200 JP)
Scryer - 2 Base (200 JP)
----------------------
Secondary Class
Invoker - 2 Scryer (400 JP)
Cantor - 2 Scryer (400 JP)
Knight - 2 Monk (400 JP)
Traveler - 2 Monk (400 JP)
-------------------
Tertiary Class
Warder - 5 Knight (1200 JP)
Gambler - 5 Traveler (1200 JP)
-------------------------
Composite Class
Reliquian - 4 Knight, 4 Invoker (1900 JP)
Blue Mage - 4 Cantor, 4 Traveler (1900 JP)
EsperBlades - 3 Cantor, 3 Invoker (1500 JP)
Archer - 3 Knight, 3 Traveler (1500 JP)
---------------------------
Advanced Composite Class
Inquisitor - 6 Warder, 6 Reliquian (5400 JP)
Dragoon - 6 Gambler, 6 Blue Mage (5400 JP)
Arbalist - 7 Archer (3050 JP)
--------------------------------------
Master Class
Hessian - 4 Dragoon, 4 Warder, 8 Arbalist (12850 JP)
Red Mage - 4 Inquisitor, 4 Blue Mage, 8 EsperBlade (12000 JP)
---------
Monk - 2 Base (200 JP)
Scryer - 2 Base (200 JP)
----------------------
Secondary Class
Invoker - 2 Scryer (400 JP)
Cantor - 2 Scryer (400 JP)
Knight - 2 Monk (400 JP)
Traveler - 2 Monk (400 JP)
-------------------
Tertiary Class
Warder - 5 Knight (1200 JP)
Gambler - 5 Traveler (1200 JP)
-------------------------
Composite Class
Reliquian - 4 Knight, 4 Invoker (1900 JP)
Blue Mage - 4 Cantor, 4 Traveler (1900 JP)
EsperBlades - 3 Cantor, 3 Invoker (1500 JP)
Archer - 3 Knight, 3 Traveler (1500 JP)
---------------------------
Advanced Composite Class
Inquisitor - 6 Warder, 6 Reliquian (5400 JP)
Dragoon - 6 Gambler, 6 Blue Mage (5400 JP)
Arbalist - 7 Archer (3050 JP)
--------------------------------------
Master Class
Hessian - 4 Dragoon, 4 Warder, 8 Arbalist (12850 JP)
Red Mage - 4 Inquisitor, 4 Blue Mage, 8 EsperBlade (12000 JP)
Which, really isn't too far off target. Nice shot. They both have definite endgame net JP pre-reqs, and they're rather close together because Warder takes less to unlock that Blue Mage, which somewhat offsets the additional arbalist job over on the hessain side of the tree.
However, taking a page from 1.3 here... I don't think job level 2 is sufficient for anything except maybe out of the dummy base class, though 1 may just suffice there tbh. Thanks to the starter bonus of 100-199 JP, getting up to 200 JP is doing one single action if you're lucky. That is nowhere near enough time to sit in a class before advancing forward.
If we ratchet up those starter classes to 3, and make the dummy base 1 here's the offset is completely negligible (Hessain's looking at 13000 JP, maybe).
It's a very tight wire to cross -- you want all the classes to be experienced and maybe hopefully stayed in even after their pre-req is completed, but the later classes shouldn't be so far out of reach that one would have to purposely grind in order to even play with them. With that in mind, I think a more proper goal with the final classes is 10000 JP, or maybe even less. That mime I spoke of earlier never was any job in which is was already level 6 in, and I'd hate to see the same fate befall any of these great classes, especially trancer, because with regards to the final class that can be ignored entirely.
Which leads to my initial suggestion line:
Start Base
---------
Monk - 1 Base (100)
Scryer - 1 Base (100)
Secondary Class
Invoker - 3 Scryer (450)
Cantor - 3 Scryer (450)
Knight - 3 Monk (450)
Traveler - 3 Monk (450)
Tertiary Class
Warder - 4 Knight (1250)
Gambler - 4 Traveler (1250)
Composite Class
Reliquian - 3 Knight, 3 Invoker (1600)
Blue Mage - 3 Cantor, 3 Traveler (1600)
EsperBlades - 3 Cantor, 3 Invoker (1600)
Archer - 3 Knight, 3 Traveler (1600)
Advanced Composite Class
Inquisitor - 4 Warder, 4 Reliquian (3950)
Dragoon - 4 Gambler, 4 Blue Mage (3950)
Arbalist - 6 Archer (2750)
Trancer - 4 Monk, 4 Scryer, 3 Reliquarian, 3 Blue Mage (5200) <-- Yuck!
Master Class
Hessian - 4 Dragoon, 4 Warder, 8 Arbalist (10000)
Red Mage - 4 Inquisitor, 4 Blue Mage, 8 EsperBlade (10350)
---------
Monk - 1 Base (100)
Scryer - 1 Base (100)
Secondary Class
Invoker - 3 Scryer (450)
Cantor - 3 Scryer (450)
Knight - 3 Monk (450)
Traveler - 3 Monk (450)
Tertiary Class
Warder - 4 Knight (1250)
Gambler - 4 Traveler (1250)
Composite Class
Reliquian - 3 Knight, 3 Invoker (1600)
Blue Mage - 3 Cantor, 3 Traveler (1600)
EsperBlades - 3 Cantor, 3 Invoker (1600)
Archer - 3 Knight, 3 Traveler (1600)
Advanced Composite Class
Inquisitor - 4 Warder, 4 Reliquian (3950)
Dragoon - 4 Gambler, 4 Blue Mage (3950)
Arbalist - 6 Archer (2750)
Trancer - 4 Monk, 4 Scryer, 3 Reliquarian, 3 Blue Mage (5200) <-- Yuck!
Master Class
Hessian - 4 Dragoon, 4 Warder, 8 Arbalist (10000)
Red Mage - 4 Inquisitor, 4 Blue Mage, 8 EsperBlade (10350)
OK, 350 variance. Oh noes. I had forgotten about warder being simpler than blue mage when discussing the arbalist. Even if you think level 8 on those jobs is too high for the master classes, you can easily make them anything less and be fine. The bulk of the JP comes from all the other classes anyways, so they'd be reduced to all of... 9000 JP? Still plenty high but within reach.
Oh, and I think trancer needs to be trimmed. I like the 4 monk/scryer bit, but even if we go 1 Reliq and 1 BM that's still ~4500 JP. That might work?
Title:
Post by: LastingDawn on August 23, 2009, 09:30:21 pm
Post by: LastingDawn on August 23, 2009, 09:30:21 pm
Quote from: "philsov"TL:DR - See 2nd spoiler for my suggestions, tweak as desired.
Well....
Forgive my frames of reference, I'm far more versed in 1.3 FFT than mercenaries. This'll also bring up some discussion about job reqs in general.
In a normal style of play, that is... about half of the propositions done, a few randoms, and maybe 2 additional rounds of action at the end of some battles, you can get:
4th tier jobs like geomancer or mediator at the start of chapter 2, meaning about 1200 JP acquired at that point (750 earned with 450 thanks to starter bonuses).
Composite classes like samurai/ninja/sage/bard/dancer at the end of chap 2 / start of chap 3 -- meaning a total of about 3000 JP at that time -- 2100 earned and 900 starter bonuses.
Meanwhile, a 1.3 mime is usually born from normal means right before the home stretch at Orbonne. 1.3 Mime is job level 6, in 16 jobs, meaning... 18400 JP arrived at through the course of the game (16000 JP earned, 2400 given). Though it should be noted that JP gains are higher as both job level and experience level also go up. Also JP sharing was exercised by the rest of the party.
And using my current 1.3 game as a reference, I'm in early chapter 4 with an average of 8000 JP among my main people.
Assuming that Mercenaries will have roughly the same length as 1.3 in terms of number of battles and average length of battles, this means these ultimate classes should be unlocked at about... 14000 JP. This would be decidedly end-game level stuff but you're also given enough time to actually play with the classes.
That sounds about right, the only thing I see being different from 1.3 and Mercenaries is the focus on only two units, rather then up to 16. that shouldn't effect things too adversely, unlike 1.3 "Studies" (Propositions), can only be performed by a single NPC Guest Unit, rather then every generic. Regardless it should still be about the same.
QuoteUnder your initial proposal...
Start Base
---------
Monk - 2 Base (200 JP)
Scryer - 2 Base (200 JP)
----------------------
Secondary Class
Invoker - 2 Scryer (400 JP)
Cantor - 2 Scryer (400 JP)
Knight - 2 Monk (400 JP)
Traveler - 2 Monk (400 JP)
-------------------
Tertiary Class
Warder - 5 Knight (1200 JP)
Gambler - 5 Traveler (1200 JP)
-------------------------
Composite Class
Reliquian - 4 Knight, 4 Invoker (1900 JP)
Blue Mage - 4 Cantor, 4 Traveler (1900 JP)
EsperBlades - 3 Cantor, 3 Invoker (1500 JP)
Archer - 3 Knight, 3 Traveler (1500 JP)
---------------------------
Advanced Composite Class
Inquisitor - 6 Warder, 6 Reliquian (5400 JP)
Dragoon - 6 Gambler, 6 Blue Mage (5400 JP)
Arbalist - 7 Archer (3050 JP)
--------------------------------------
Master Class
Hessian - 4 Dragoon, 4 Warder, 8 Arbalist (12850 JP)
Red Mage - 4 Inquisitor, 4 Blue Mage, 8 EsperBlade (12000 JP)
Which, really isn't too far off target. Nice shot. They both have definite endgame net JP pre-reqs, and they're rather close together because Warder takes less to unlock that Blue Mage, which somewhat offsets the additional arbalist job over on the hessain side of the tree.
However, taking a page from 1.3 here... I don't think job level 2 is sufficient for anything except maybe out of the dummy base class, though 1 may just suffice there tbh. Thanks to the starter bonus of 100-199 JP, getting up to 200 JP is doing one single action if you're lucky. That is nowhere near enough time to sit in a class before advancing forward.
If we ratchet up those starter classes to 3, and make the dummy base 1 here's the offset is completely negligible (Hessain's looking at 13000 JP, maybe).
It's a very tight wire to cross -- you want all the classes to be experienced and maybe hopefully stayed in even after their pre-req is completed, but the later classes shouldn't be so far out of reach that one would have to purposely grind in order to even play with them. With that in mind, I think a more proper goal with the final classes is 10000 JP, or maybe even less. That mime I spoke of earlier never was any job in which is was already level 6 in, and I'd hate to see the same fate befall any of these great classes, especially trancer, because with regards to the final class that can be ignored entirely.
That is true and a definite concern... I like the idea to bump them to 3 for the starter classes.
QuoteWhich leads to my initial suggestion line:
Start Base
---------
Monk - 1 Base (100)
Scryer - 1 Base (100)
Secondary Class
Invoker - 3 Scryer (450)
Cantor - 3 Scryer (450)
Knight - 3 Monk (450)
Traveler - 3 Monk (450)
Tertiary Class
Warder - 4 Knight (1250)
Gambler - 4 Traveler (1250)
Composite Class
Reliquian - 3 Knight, 3 Invoker (1600)
Blue Mage - 3 Cantor, 3 Traveler (1600)
EsperBlades - 3 Cantor, 3 Invoker (1600)
Archer - 3 Knight, 3 Traveler (1600)
Advanced Composite Class
Inquisitor - 4 Warder, 4 Reliquian (3950)
Dragoon - 4 Gambler, 4 Blue Mage (3950)
Arbalist - 6 Archer (2750)
Trancer - 4 Monk, 4 Scryer, 3 Reliquarian, 3 Blue Mage (5200) <-- Yuck!
Master Class
Hessian - 4 Dragoon, 4 Warder, 8 Arbalist (10000)
Red Mage - 4 Inquisitor, 4 Blue Mage, 8 EsperBlade (10350)
I really like this new job level chart and will apply it immediately.
QuoteOK, 350 variance. Oh noes. I had forgotten about warder being simpler than blue mage when discussing the arbalist. Even if you think level 8 on those jobs is too high for the master classes, you can easily make them anything less and be fine. The bulk of the JP comes from all the other classes anyways, so they'd be reduced to all of... 9000 JP? Still plenty high but within reach.
Oh, and I think trancer needs to be trimmed. I like the 4 monk/scryer bit, but even if we go 1 Reliq and 1 BM that's still ~4500 JP. That might work?
Good point, very good point on the Trancer... let's see... perhaps 1 Warder and Gambler might work? Though that would lead some to believe that the Trancer is a Physical only class, hmm... how about another making it another secondary job? 4 Traveler, 4 Invoker? The Invoker and Traveler are both pretty quirky character traited job classes, I could see training in both fulminating in the warrior ground sensing freaks that are Trancers.
Title:
Post by: MiKeMiTchi on August 23, 2009, 11:16:57 pm
Post by: MiKeMiTchi on August 23, 2009, 11:16:57 pm
QuoteStart Base
---------
Monk - 1 Base (100)
Scryer - 1 Base (100)
Secondary Class
Invoker - 3 Scryer (450)
Cantor - 3 Scryer (450)
Knight - 3 Monk (450)
Traveler - 3 Monk (450)
Tertiary Class
Warder - 4 Knight (1250)
Gambler - 4 Traveler (1250)
Composite Class
Reliquian - 3 Knight, 3 Invoker (1600)
Blue Mage - 3 Cantor, 3 Traveler (1600)
EsperBlades - 3 Cantor, 3 Invoker (1600)
Archer - 3 Knight, 3 Traveler (1600)
Advanced Composite Class
Inquisitor - 4 Warder, 4 Reliquian (3950)
Dragoon - 4 Gambler, 4 Blue Mage (3950)
Arbalist - 6 Archer (2750)
Trancer - 4 Monk, 4 Scryer, 3 Reliquarian, 3 Blue Mage (5200) <-- Yuck!
Master Class
Hessian - 4 Dragoon, 4 Warder, 8 Arbalist (10000)
Red Mage - 4 Inquisitor, 4 Blue Mage, 8 EsperBlade (10350)
I love it, except for the Trancer.
IMO, I agree with LD's opinion on the Traveler, Invoker.
That should make the Trancer, a special tertiary class.
So,
Trancer should be:
4 Monk, 4 Scryer, 4 Traveler or Knight, 4 Invoker or Cantor.
or..
4 Monk, 4 Scryer, 2 Traveler, 2 Knight, 2 Invoker and 2 Cantor??
Title:
Post by: philsov on August 24, 2009, 12:31:57 am
Post by: philsov on August 24, 2009, 12:31:57 am
QuoteTrancer should be:
4 Monk, 4 Scryer, 4 Traveler or Knight, 4 Invoker or Cantor.
This. 2 across the board is pretty weak, as described above.
4/4/4/4 is 2400 JP total needed. Not too bad for a composite class.
As far as which class combo, we've got:
Knight/Cantor
Traveler/Invoker
to pick from. Of these I find traveler/invoker to fit a lot better.
Title:
Post by: MiKeMiTchi on August 24, 2009, 03:24:59 am
Post by: MiKeMiTchi on August 24, 2009, 03:24:59 am
I agree. Traveler and Invoker would fit better.
Now it's up to Sir LD to implement them..
Now it's up to Sir LD to implement them..
Title:
Post by: LastingDawn on August 24, 2009, 09:56:26 am
Post by: LastingDawn on August 24, 2009, 09:56:26 am
Done and done, thank you for all your help Philsov, this should balance things a fair bit.
Title: Re: Job Tree Layout (Thanks Philsov!)
Post by: LastingDawn on August 28, 2010, 04:10:29 pm
Post by: LastingDawn on August 28, 2010, 04:10:29 pm
Hmm, I've come across a bit of a concern. Which I think I will need some feedback to help with. I plan on not allowing the player to obtain all the jobs at the start of the game, meaning that I don't want people using Hessian and Red Mage as soon as Chapter 2 comes about. Though also I don't want All of the advanced classes to be used in the first chapter. Here was my idea for a split...
All of the Base (well of course), all of the Secondary, and all of the Composite Class will be available in Chapter 1. With at the start of Chapter 2 all of the Advanced Composite and Tertiary classes will open up Except for Red Mage and Hessian. I plan on those opening up in the Chapter 3 Patch.
Now there are some pros and cons to this system no matter which decision is made. My worry is that people will become bored if they unlock All the classes in the first patch and there will be very little to drive them forward for the rest of the patches/chapters. Also in Chapter 1 some classes themselves are hardly usable because of the lack of usable equipment available in that patch.
For instance, Warder's first weapon isn't available until Level 25, which the max level of equipment in Patch 1 is Level 22 and all of the Level 20+ equipment is considered "rare" for that patch.
The cons of this setup is it stifles creativity on the part of the player. It doesn't allow as much customization as would be possible ordinarily.
So I leave it to you. I will leave a poll up for a week and Please if you do Vote, please post a reasoning of why you voted one way or another, thank you for all the help you may give in refuting or supporting this decision that depends solely on your votes.
All of the Base (well of course), all of the Secondary, and all of the Composite Class will be available in Chapter 1. With at the start of Chapter 2 all of the Advanced Composite and Tertiary classes will open up Except for Red Mage and Hessian. I plan on those opening up in the Chapter 3 Patch.
Now there are some pros and cons to this system no matter which decision is made. My worry is that people will become bored if they unlock All the classes in the first patch and there will be very little to drive them forward for the rest of the patches/chapters. Also in Chapter 1 some classes themselves are hardly usable because of the lack of usable equipment available in that patch.
For instance, Warder's first weapon isn't available until Level 25, which the max level of equipment in Patch 1 is Level 22 and all of the Level 20+ equipment is considered "rare" for that patch.
The cons of this setup is it stifles creativity on the part of the player. It doesn't allow as much customization as would be possible ordinarily.
So I leave it to you. I will leave a poll up for a week and Please if you do Vote, please post a reasoning of why you voted one way or another, thank you for all the help you may give in refuting or supporting this decision that depends solely on your votes.
Title: Re: Job Tree Layout (UPDATE! Your Opinion Needed!) POLL!
Post by: Smitson on August 28, 2010, 05:17:05 pm
Post by: Smitson on August 28, 2010, 05:17:05 pm
I like this, it also shows that as you go throughout the game you get more powerful and so you gain access to more powerful classes.
Title: Re: Job Tree Layout (UPDATE! Your Opinion Needed!) POLL!
Post by: mav on August 28, 2010, 06:09:02 pm
Post by: mav on August 28, 2010, 06:09:02 pm
Right now I'm leaning towards restricting the job selection. From the perspective of creativity and perhaps even strategy, the player may be losing out., but if equipment is inaccessible, then I see no reason to use the class. I mean who really needs a Warder in Ch. 1? When I played FFT, my job selection reflected both my place in the game and my skill as a player: there was no way I'd need to use a Ninja in Ch. 1 and I doubt I would have been prepared to use that class if I had access to it that early anyways.
I wish there was some middle ground, like limiting what skills are available when, but I suppose that's out of the question.
I wish there was some middle ground, like limiting what skills are available when, but I suppose that's out of the question.
Title: Re: Job Tree Layout (UPDATE! Your Opinion Needed!) POLL!
Post by: LastingDawn on August 28, 2010, 06:42:31 pm
Post by: LastingDawn on August 28, 2010, 06:42:31 pm
Actually Mav. That's a very simple matter all together. Just add skills to skillsets as the patches go on. Though what did you have in mind for that alternative?
Title: Re: Job Tree Layout (UPDATE! Your Opinion Needed!) POLL!
Post by: SilvasRuin on August 28, 2010, 06:52:21 pm
Post by: SilvasRuin on August 28, 2010, 06:52:21 pm
The restriction is best done for purposes of immersion/story. In other words, when there is a plot related reason they can't use a certain job just yet. An example would be a story akin to FFIII or FFV in which finding each crystal is the end of a chapter and the next chapter allows the new jobs, or something similar to the way Wild ARMs XF justified it.
The problem is that I'm not aware of any storyline reason to do that for your patch other than passive implications that the character's skills and knowledge grow enough to use them over time.
Of course, my favorite aspect of games tends to be the story, and I love it when the plot and gameplay are reconciled rather than conflicting. For instance, Ramza panicking about needing a phoenix down in the Worker 8 scene was fantastic. Basically I'm just saying that my personal decision on the matter would rely on whether or not it made sense for the plot.
Mechanically, I think you need to look at the bigger picture. Think about how your game will play once it is finished. Early restrictions get players to beef up the early jobs and abilities and prevent munchkinism tendencies like neglecting all decent development on a character until they reach the ideal job the player has in mind. It would promote diversity in the skills accessed so far in each branch of the story, discourage early min-maxing, and might even promote player creativity by making them have to think harder to come up with powerful combinations.
Alternatively, if this is only to prevent players of the first chapter from getting bored with it all before the second chapter is released, don't worry about it. Any good player with faith in your design would know that the later chapters would be worth playing for the trickier fights they'd have to work their way though. Don't make a decision here based on a worry like that and potentially hurt the game.
The problem is that I'm not aware of any storyline reason to do that for your patch other than passive implications that the character's skills and knowledge grow enough to use them over time.
Of course, my favorite aspect of games tends to be the story, and I love it when the plot and gameplay are reconciled rather than conflicting. For instance, Ramza panicking about needing a phoenix down in the Worker 8 scene was fantastic. Basically I'm just saying that my personal decision on the matter would rely on whether or not it made sense for the plot.
Mechanically, I think you need to look at the bigger picture. Think about how your game will play once it is finished. Early restrictions get players to beef up the early jobs and abilities and prevent munchkinism tendencies like neglecting all decent development on a character until they reach the ideal job the player has in mind. It would promote diversity in the skills accessed so far in each branch of the story, discourage early min-maxing, and might even promote player creativity by making them have to think harder to come up with powerful combinations.
Alternatively, if this is only to prevent players of the first chapter from getting bored with it all before the second chapter is released, don't worry about it. Any good player with faith in your design would know that the later chapters would be worth playing for the trickier fights they'd have to work their way though. Don't make a decision here based on a worry like that and potentially hurt the game.
Title: Re: Job Tree Layout (UPDATE! Your Opinion Needed!) POLL!
Post by: FFMaster on August 29, 2010, 03:23:41 am
Post by: FFMaster on August 29, 2010, 03:23:41 am
I love this idea. It shows the characters as they progress in knowledge and skill, and will help people as they start the game, since they won't be bombarded with classes at the start.
Title: Re: Job Tree Layout (UPDATE! Your Opinion Needed!) POLL!
Post by: mav on August 29, 2010, 09:30:26 pm
Post by: mav on August 29, 2010, 09:30:26 pm
Quote from: "LastingDawn"Though what did you have in mind for that alternative?Not too sure yet. I mean, we'd have to organize or rank each class's skills from weakest to strongest, or most basic to most complex. Then we'd have to limit which skills are available when, leaving the strongest and/or most complex skills till the last two chapters. Access to the jobs becomes seemingly limitless, but the need to reuse past classes becomes more apparent. Without the option to master each job or learn every skill early on, the desire to return to those jobs later on increases. I dunno, it's something to mull over.
Title: Re: Job Tree Layout (UPDATE! Your Opinion Needed!) POLL!
Post by: SolidSnakeDog on August 30, 2010, 08:31:31 am
Post by: SolidSnakeDog on August 30, 2010, 08:31:31 am
Id say this would be better this way, so we see something new at each chapiters, Istend of using the best jobs/skill combo form the begining to the end.
Has a Plus, it would give u more time to work on the later jobs.
Has a Plus, it would give u more time to work on the later jobs.
Title: Re: Job Tree Layout (UPDATE! Your Opinion Needed!) POLL!
Post by: philsov on August 30, 2010, 12:49:44 pm
Post by: philsov on August 30, 2010, 12:49:44 pm
I think it'll be a welcome twist from the more traditional job-unlock dash.
The notion of all classes available but gaining skills as the chapters progress has merit, but I prefer the former approach from a simplicity standpoint. Either way, I'm in support of something if for nothing else than simply being different and fresh.
The notion of all classes available but gaining skills as the chapters progress has merit, but I prefer the former approach from a simplicity standpoint. Either way, I'm in support of something if for nothing else than simply being different and fresh.