Final Fantasy Hacktics

The FFT Arena AI Tournament Season 2 registration is now open! The rules will be just like last season, there will be a winner's and loser's bracket. All the matches will be best 2 out of 3 except for the championship match which will be 3 out of 5.

The hosts so far are myself, CT5Holy, and Dokurider with Gaignun helping with the tournament brackets. We may need one more volunteer so that way we can get help for both brackets.

As far as teams, for those who are submitting their teams for the tournament shall PM me your team and I will check to see if they are legal.

For those that don't know the rules are as follows:

RULES:
Teams will consist of 4 generic humans at Level 35, controlled by enemy AI routines.

Fury and Faith range is between 40 and 70. There is no minimum or maximum for Team Fury/Faith

Each unit has 3000 JP to spend on various abilities. It costs 250 JP to unlock ANY job.(includes Squire/Chemist) For example, to unlock Ninja, you only have to spend 250 JP(the 250 JP is lost forever). You do not need to unlock Squire/Knight/etc to unlock Ninja.

Only two units can buy any individual ability. Innates do not count towards this. (i.e. four units could have the Punch Art skillset, but only two could have purchased Earth Slash; conversely, you can have two Chemists and a Knight with Throw Item)

Only two units can equip any individual item.



The deadline will be July 1, 2013 at midnight EST. So everyone has enough time to register for this tournament. If you have any questions please feel free to post here and someone here will be more than happy to help you. Thank you and good luck to you all!

Players registered

Reks
Barren
TrueLight
Otabo
Zareb
reinoe
DarkxFatal
Wiz
Dol
Avalanche
Jumza
CT5Holy
Eternal
The Damned
Vigilanti
DomieV
Angelus
the frisky dingo
Shadowstrike
Dragonblade
Ahong
Skiploom188
Malroth
LightningHax
Gaignun
iamBQB
Garland
Andante49
Torgo
Fanatic
woodenbandman
EmmaNigma
TheJonin
JamesOnyx

34 registered players

There are some general map questions I'd like to ask.

Map 000, even though it's only been tested once, the map appears usable albeit dark.  Is there a way to lighten the map to make it visible?

Map 41 (Besrodio's House) still has that Dimensional warp device in place.  Is there a way to get it removed for the tournament, or is that just going to be part of the challenge?

What are the currently banned maps?

I'm not sure how to edit maps to be honest, I'll ask someone this weekend on the subject.

As far as banned maps, for the most part it's usually been maps NOGIAS, END, and I think Besrodio's House (unless the warp device does get removed). It can stay if you want it to be part of the challenge, depends on what everyone else says

I'm in for a team.  Like always, I'll vote for Zirkilie Falls and the Hospital to be banned.

Players registered:
+Avalanche

^ + Jumza

Well, I think people agreed on the map pool for Arena S1, and Gaignun is going to be assigning the maps, so I think the map pool will be the same as last time?

EDIT: I'm in, obviously, just don't have a team ready yet =P

I'm in.

Map 000 should be banned because it's impossible to make out the action.
Church Outside of Town should be banned because AoE magic is overpowered on it because how clustered everyone is on it.
Oh and I'm in.

I'm also in.  PM'd you my team, Barren.

This is could be "HyperFabulous" last chance to redeem themselves.

If memory serves me right, there are a few maps I left out last season that people want back in.  I'll add them if I can find their names.

Also, how do we want map sizes ordered?  We usually go small-large-medium, but since most matches are decided after two rounds, we hardly ever get to see the medium maps.  Should we try small-medium-large this time around?

I don't think many would mind really. It is a new map order we haven't tried yet

If we did Small/Medium/Large, teams that rely on big maps will get screwed over and vice versa. If you wanted variety, I suppose Medium/Medium/Medium would be sound on paper.

I hate small maps. i think the advantage teams have on this maps is based on the lack of team-composition skills.

(Yeah, I'd more prefer we just do Medium-Medium-Medium like Dokurider said if the lack of seeing Medium maps is somehow a "problem". Otherwise I see no reasonable argument for changing to Small-Medium-Large given physical teams are already heavily advantage in that format, even before Quickening being allowed in this tournament.)

I suppose I'm in as a contestant. I'll probably do something elemental-based given all the discussion going on the Balance thread about that and actually "try" this time unlike the last tournament where I just half-assed designs even more than usual.

I'd also potentially be in to try to help, but I never got a reply about whether you need hosts who are willing to lend their voices in addition to recording or just need hosts who can record, Barren. That's rather important to know (for me) since if it's the former, then...yeah, I'm not doing that even though I'd like to help.

Quote from: Avalanche on June 16, 2013, 02:38:48 am
I hate small maps. i think the advantage teams have on this maps is based on the lack of team-composition skills.

Funny, I can say the same for large maps.

QuoteFunny, I can say the same for large maps.

Well when composing a Team you have to make sure every turn counts. Thats not hard when you opponend is just one move away.

Quote from: Avalanche on June 16, 2013, 05:40:03 am
Well when composing a Team you have to make sure every turn counts. Thats not hard when you opponend is just one move away.

It's also pretty easy to buff yourself up uninterrupted when your enemy is a map away. Or ready Lore/Dance spam.

(Still waiting on the "do you need people with vocal commentary" question, Barren. I don't want to nag you, but....)

So...it looks like 1.39 will actually be finished way sooner than expected. I guess we're still doing this as 1.38 though, which is fine. 1.38 should get a big "send-off" considering how long it's been around already.

Now I'm just wondering something.... (Well, beyond if CT5Holy is doing a Water-based team, since otherwise, I'll probably make one.)

Salutations, folks. I got linked here from another forum by reinoe. I've also been watching the Single Class tournament. I'm interested in registering a team, but I do have one question:

- Does it cost 250 JP to unlock a subclass for a unit? As an example, say I give a Monk Chivalry. Will he cost 500 JP?

BONUS FOLLOW UP QUESTION:

- If the answer to the above is "Yes!" then can I make a Knight at no extra JP cost?

Quote from: Torgo on June 19, 2013, 04:41:13 am
Salutations, folks. I got linked here from another forum by reinoe.

I've also been watching the Single Class tournament. I'm interested in registering a team, but I do have one question:

Yay advertising spam success.  Oh but don't try that at insanely derpy...

Quote from: Torgo on June 19, 2013, 04:41:13 am- Does it cost 250 JP to unlock a subclass for a unit? As an example, say I give a Monk Chivalry. Will he cost 500 JP?

Yep, it cost 250 jp to unlock Monk, and another 250 to unlike Paladin.  But you don't have to limit it to just two classes.  If you want to give your Paladin "Move HP UP" it'll cost another 250 to unlock Geomancer.

Quote from: Torgo on June 19, 2013, 04:41:13 am
BONUS FOLLOW UP QUESTION:

- If the answer to the above is "Yes!" then can I make a Knight Paladin at no extra JP cost?

No, each time you unlock a "job" it's for that unit only.  So you would have to pay 250 jp if another unit wants access to the Paladin job command.

There are two invaluable tools to making a team, the first I think you're already looked at...

http://ffhacktics.com/smf/index.php?topic=6483.0
This is the master guide that lists JP etc, and a brief outline of some of the jobs and abilities.

The second is a real godsend...
It's a team design tool.  Do not under any circumstance modify the formulas.  I did that on accident and my teams were terrible :mad:  The team design tool will actually calculate for you jp counts etc.  PRO TIP-when the JP COUNTER TURNS red you've used too many points!
http://ffhacktics.com/smf/index.php?topic=8202.0

Quote from: Torgo on June 19, 2013, 04:41:13 am
Salutations, folks. I got linked here from another forum by reinoe. I've also been watching the Single Class tournament. I'm interested in registering a team, but I do have one question:

- Does it cost 250 JP to unlock a subclass for a unit? As an example, say I give a Monk Chivalry. Will he cost 500 JP?

BONUS FOLLOW UP QUESTION:

- If the answer to the above is "Yes!" then can I make a Knight at no extra JP cost?

Each unit has it's own JP budget (3000 JP). It is not influenced by it's teammate own JP costs. You buy a Chivalry secondary for said Monk, a fellow Paladin will still have 250 JP deducted from his allowance. And yes it costs 250 JP for not just a subclass, but for all classes unlocked on that unit. If you wanted Auto Potion, you'd would have to unlock the Chemist class for 250 JP and pay the cost of the skill itself (300 JP).

Oh and the master says to keep your filthy hands off his wives. It's already hell trying keeping those dress clean and unwrinkled without you drooling all over us you perv.

Quote from: Dokurider on June 19, 2013, 05:00:28 am
Each unit has it's own JP budget (3000 JP).

Ahhhhhh. Ok, I get it. Big brain fart on my part; I thought the 3000 JP was across all four characters. I'll admit I hadn't actually looked at the JP costs for individual abilities, but it did strike me as rather stingy. That makes a lot more sense.

Quote from: reinoe on June 19, 2013, 04:57:27 am
It's a team design tool.  Do not under any circumstance modify the formulas.  I did that on accident and my teams were terrible :mad:  The team design tool will actually calculate for you jp counts etc.  PRO TIP-when the JP COUNTER TURNS red you've used too many points!
http://ffhacktics.com/smf/index.php?topic=8202.0

Sadly, I lack the proper software to take advantage of it. I'll have to figure it out on my own.

Quote from: Dokurider on June 19, 2013, 05:00:28 amOh and the master says to keep your filthy hands off his wives. It's already hell trying keeping those dress clean and unwrinkled without you drooling all over us you perv.

I promise I learned my lesson.

(http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b139/I_am_Torgo/fire-hand-5.png)

Look ma, no hand(s)!

Hmmm, join? or not join?


Loser videos, anyone?

There's probably going to be a loser's bracket for sure

Barren,
My Messages > Actions > Search Messages > "Dokurider"

Hmmm...Got to do this. But research first. Yes, research. Then battle....My monks will rise again.

...

we still have those, right?

Yes we do

(Barren, please don't make me nag you about this vocal thing. You know I will.)

No, we no longer have Monks, Fanatic. We have Pugilists, which are basically the same thing, only they're forced to fight to like gentlemen--this is fine since pretty much no one has used a female Monk Pugilist in ages.

Also, good to see you back.

Ohh you mean 1.39 Damned, yea I heard that's gonna get changed but as for now we still have monks since we're using 1.38d

(No, actually, that's not what I meant.)

The "nagging" thing I'm talking about is my offer of help, but on the condition that I don't have to have vocals on my video. I just need to know whether you needed the additional helper you asked for to be someone who used his/her voice in the videos or if you just needed someone else who was willing to help record the tournament.

Because I can (probably) do the latter, but I'm unwilling and unable to do the former.

I just need/want a clear answer is all.

P.S. The post "to" Fanatic was just a Street Fighter-related joke. We'll still have Monks in 1.39...at least as far as I know.

If you can contribute Damned then you're definitely welcome aboard. If you want to do it non-vocally that's fine.

If i'm not too late i'll try to have a team ready before monday night

So I have a team! I think! I just pm it to you Barren?

Couple other questions about making/posting teams:

• What's the general rule of thumb on publishing teams in general? For tournaments do we just submit them privately to keep them secret, or do we put them up publicly anywhere beforehand?


• Is there a general thread for talking team construction and critiquing?

Also, reinoe, I'm not sure if you got my reply (my PMs say "reply sent" but then it's not in my sent messages, so...), but thanks again for the welcome and the link over! :mrgreen:

Quote from: Torgo on June 23, 2013, 12:31:15 am
Couple other questions about making/posting teams:

• What's the general rule of thumb on publishing teams in general? For tournaments do we just submit them privately to keep them secret, or do we put them up publicly anywhere beforehand?


• Is there a general thread for talking team construction and critiquing?

For tourneys, you send the team to whoever is hosting the tournament usually, then they usually get posted after the deadline has passed; right before the tourney starts. For non-tourney teams though, all you have to do is make a post in the Team Submissions thread and post whatever teams you want. Just look at some teams in the Team Submissions thread to get an idea on how it's done. It's easy. People have anywhere from 1 or 2 teams to 10+ teams, so there isn't a limit. One of the recorders will get around to making videos at some point. Usually it's Barren, Dokurider or CT5Holy making videos for the teams (used to include me as well, but I stopped for...reasons I won't get into).

If you need help casting matches, I can help out.

That'd be great FFM thank you

(Did you still need only four helpers, Barren?)

If that's so, then I'll (gladly) stand aside if FFMaster is offering to help and actually has the time.

So, commentators, who wants winner's bracket/loser's bracket? =P

I know I can do the Winner's Bracket. I do need one more person to help out with the winner's bracket. Then who ever is left can both take part in the loser's bracket

Am i late to register?

Alright, I guess I'll do the winner's bracket as well, assuming no objections.

Ahong: You have until next Monday to submit a team.

Okay, i will put my best team in later. But, i need to calculate between AKRC and AKRC Black Edition. :D

Woooo, losers for me!

Loser's bracket is way more exciting.  I plan on going there after round 1 just for the excitement.

Then that case, Doku or Damned could you help out FFMaster with the Loser's bracket?

(I'll do Loser's bracket as well.)

It's more appropriate and, if I disappear for whatever reason, then it will be easier for you guys to recover. I'll try to give you a heads up if it's something I can "control" at least though.

Thank you, very much appreciated

Alrighty. Leaving for a good while now, so good luck to everyone!

So, how can i register my team?

You PM me your team, I'm checking for teams as of right now.

Just so everyone knows, I also plan to livestream my recordings. Afterwards, if you miss them, they will appear on youtube.

That should be fun to watch :P

Livestream is great, i hope we see some dualcast live at the final

Since this could affect the decision on which team I submit to the tournament: can we confirm if it's 3 medium, or is it going to be Large, Small, Medium.

I know that might sound weird, but I have a team that I'm considering that is more likely to lose on small maps, and I have another team that does proportionally better on medium and large maps.

I think we may do Medium, Small, Large. Its an order we haven't done before, at least not to the best of my knowledge

(I...don't know to feel how about that map order, honestly. Admittedly, I also didn't know how to feel about the initial "Medium, Large, Small" you apparently accidentally posted. The currently suggested one seems to heavily favor melee teams.

The map order is ultimately up to you though, Barren.)

Speaking of map stuff, I was reminded that I wanted to again post the map stuff I've still been mulling over with regards to the "acceptable" maps for ARENA that got somewhat waylayed by the Jot5 focus and tag-teamed by my own indolence. I figure we should at least talk about a bit considering that Gaignun admitted his own map selection from last year was as thorough as he wanted when I modified it a bit about three or four months ago:








So...uh, yeah. Probably should have brought this up (much) earlier. Apologies.

Internet-less EDIT: Ugh. I can finally fix that damn spoiler error even if my Internet is still "gone".

Thanks for the revisions.  A few comments:

Hospital in Slums: Aside from being visually disorienting and containing bottlenecks, this map gives spellcasters an overwhelming advantage.  Imagine the grief of trying to reach stationary Lore/Dance users while being held up by tanks blocking the doorways.  For these reasons, I think it should still be omitted.

Fovoham Plains: I know I labeled this medium, but on second thought, it should probably be large.  We need fewer medium maps and more large ones, anyway.

Warjilis Trade City:  P1 is fenced in by the water.  Meanwhile, P2 has an entire city to retreat into when taking heat.  It's not balanced.

Port of Warjilis:  Nasty, nasty bottlenecks.  Me no like.

The rest looks more or less fine.

Quote from: Barren on June 28, 2013, 09:23:05 pm
I think we may do Medium, Small, Large. Its an order we haven't done before, at least not to the best of my knowledge

I endorse this motion.  Large maps give teams an opportunity to spam Quickening at the start of battle, as well as room for spellgunners to run and gun.  Putting large maps last will challenge these strategies, if only ever so slightly.

QuoteI endorse this motion.  Large maps give teams an opportunity to spam Quickening at the start of battle, as well as room for spellgunners to run and gun.  Putting large maps last will challenge these strategies, if only ever so slightly.

So if I were to enter my Air Knife team, you guys will be fine with the fact that you just weighted my chances, as well as most close quarter teams, of winning just because you hate Quickening/Spellguns, right? We should not be favoring other team types on simple whims because the goal of the Tournament is to determine who is strongest, not who we think deserves to win because they aren't using a overused/overpowered strategy. One of the very reasons we are having this tournament is to evaluate whether overpowered strategies are truly overpowered or if they're just the Arena equivalent of Pub Stompers/Scrub strategies and thus can be overcome with good team composition.

You guys have seen these maps 1000x times already, what's a 1000x times more going to do? We need to be as fair as possible about the way we conduct this tournament. May the strongest team win, not the fairest.

What map order do you suggest then?

Uh... Small/Large/Medium?

I don't really see what's wrong with it. It's worked fine in the past, so why not keep using it?

We could also try Large/Large/Large.  ;).  Change is good and there's one team I'm considering that can prove that such a set-up is completely fair.

Quote from: LightningHax on June 29, 2013, 04:13:35 pm
Uh... Small/Large/Medium?

I don't really see what's wrong with it. It's worked fine in the past, so why not keep using it?

This

Quote from: LightningHax on June 29, 2013, 04:13:35 pm
Uh... Small/Large/Medium?

I don't really see what's wrong with it. It's worked fine in the past, so why not keep using it?

I second this. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

Honestly what does it matter? The order isn't going to change the outcome of any battle anyway. If a team can only win in large maps they're going to lose no matter when the large map fight takes place. And if they can win either the small or medium map along with the large map, then they'll win no matter when the fight takes place.

If you're going to take probable outcomes into consideration, then you should base map order off of what you think would create the largest amount of 2-0 victories to lessen the burden on the members who will be recording videos.

Edit: Of course that only matters if were using 1 of each map type.

Well if we're doing Large/Large/Large then I need to change the team I submitted.

On a more serious note, here's how map sizes change the outcome of the matches.  Especially compare the results of round 1 vs round 2 and 3...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G55666SaC8A

It matters because it supposed to act as a method of testing team composition. A well made team is made for the eventuality of fighting on a map that doesn't immediately benefit their strategy. If a team can't over come the disadvantage the map gave them, then there's the next map which should cater to their strategy, and the tiebreaker that are somewhere in the middle. So a team that can only win on large maps will get nowhere in the tournament because they'll be running into small maps every match and vice versa. Design your teams to handle both kinds of maps or prepare to lose.

My suggestion about making Map selection Medium/Medium/Medium was a joke if you guys are complaining about seeing the same maps over and over now, wait until we cut 2/3rd of the maps altogether. At least with Small/Large/Medium, only 1/3rds of Map Selection is basically cut.

What I'm trying to say Dokurider, is that as long as we have a combination of Small/Medium/Large, the order of things will not change the outcome. I'm definitely not arguing for something like all medium or all large, especially since registration ends tomorrow.

You do realize that this is a best out of three, right? Or are you trying to say that map size has no effect on fights period?

And even if it somehow didn't, why not err on the side of caution?

There's also an additional point of letting the teams play in their strongest map type. If we were to just whatever order we want as long as we do all three types, a team maker that lost would leave with the feeling he never got to show his team off at their best. Besides tiebreakers are more dramatic on middle ground.

No that's not what I'm saying at all XD. I'm saying that all 6 possible combinations of:

S-M-L
S-L-M
M-S-L
M-L-S
L-S-M
L-M-S

will always produce the same winners in every contest. If somebody is going to win say, the large map and the medium map, then whether or not they do those first or last isn't going to change the ultimate outcome. The idea that by changing the order we'll favor one team over another isn't really the case, so it doesn't matter what order we decide upon.

As for your point of about making matches more interesting I don't disagree, I was mainly just trying to point out that arguments about competitive advantage didn't really need to happen.

Yeah I see you're right about the competitive advantage, but like I said, Large/Small lets every type of team show off their best.

Barren, did you get my team revision?

Yep I got it

Submitted my team! One of my units is a blast from FFH's past. :D

We need 3 more registered players to make it to 32. We're close already

Quote from: Barren on June 30, 2013, 09:30:12 pm
We need 3 more registered players to make it to 32. We're close already

http://www.printyourbrackets.com/29teamdoubleelimination.html
Although it's possible to have two a 29 player bracket, it just means three people will get a "Bye" to the next week.

And submitted!

Only one monk this time, alas. I almost submitted by status spamming move 8 team, but I thought better of it. I went a more boring traditional team.

PS: Phoenix Blade. wow. The only viable use I saw for it was on a speed 14 character who also had Balance. I must say the Thief I created in testing spammed it reliably well, and I almost went with it. Then I ran into poison. For the love of god, why doesn't that stupid sword also give immunity to poison? If you can design a team that consistently wins with that stupid weapon, I will eat my hat.

Then you better find a hat in your flavor because you're going to be eating it with a side of your words.

I need to watch replays of that team in action then.

If you've got that blade on a speed 12 unit, that makes it a speed 6 unit. It takes 17 ticks for that until to get a turn if its starting from 0, or 13 ticks if it only moved or only acted. A speed 11 until will go on Tick 10 and possibly again on tick 17, and its not hard to get an average speed of 11. So unless you're singing or dancing, you're going to be getting an action with that unit only after the entire enemy team has moved twice. Unless your opponent is a heavy sand bag team, they ought to be able to wreck bloody vengeance on you by controlling game flow with that 4 on 3 (or 4 on 2) advantage.

I'll grant you that many heavy hitters on this board favor defense oriented teams, but I just can't see a team with that blade being a powerhouse.

I have a team called "I Crave The Rave" that's all about using the Phoenix Blade users as complete distractions.

It's only played once though.  I wouldn't call it a "powerhouse" team.

Team submitted!
Yeah the Phoenix Blade is hard to use, but a few people have done it pretty well so far.
Can't wait for this tournament!

Registration get placeholder!

Quote from: woodenbandman on July 01, 2013, 01:32:44 am
Registration get placeholder!

Yeah, one hour to go by PST time.

Phoenix Blade is a headache on teams that turtle.  Otabo's Warped Time is a prime example.  The AI is drawn to attack Phoenix Blade users, whom are consistently at low HP, while ultra-tanky Knights Slow Dance your team to a standstill.  Warped Time is better at stalling than even Wiz's S1 team.  Some of my private test battle against this team lasted so long that reflect, a 0 CT status, wore off.

Either more fodder for the "real" teams or a true contender

Looking forward to the tourney and many more

 I can't wait for this to start- I'm like a kid in a tavern with new propositions available.

Reminder everyone the deadline is tonight at midnight EST so PM me your teams!!!!!

Update: We just need 1 more participant. We currently have 31 people in

Quote from: woodenbandman on July 01, 2013, 01:32:44 am
Registration get placeholder!

Hell Yeah! The woodenbandman is back!

Whoa, woodenbandman!

Ok, so, I'm going to guess that there's either going to be 31, 32, or 33 participants.

If 32, then that makes things easy, since it's a power of 2.
If 31, 1 person gets a bye. Should we use seeding to determine who gets the bye (read: Avalanche), or randomly?
If 33, there's one "preliminary" match. Again, use seeding to rule out people landing there, or randomly? If we use seeds, I think we'll seed out top ~6?

EDIT: I suppose I should also ask if people would be fine with using S1 results for seeds.

If you guys don't mind one more body to get to 32, I could join in.  Haven't messed around with this for a while and realized you guys were doing one last tourney before 1.39.

I have a team ready, I'm interested in how it'll work.

EDIT:  Oh, didn't notice it was midnight EST.  I go by PST time and it was still before midnight when I made the post.  If it's too late that's alright, I'll find another time to join in.

PM Barren your team then!

My team has been sent.  This way there won't be a bye as well. 

I'll probably just get stomped since my teams so gimmicky but I hope it'll at least try to do what it's supposed to.

This tourney will be crazy, (a lot of strong team recently). When the tourney start by the way?

Registration is officially closed! Thank you the 34 participants that entered this tournament

With that said, having 34 people in is still good, we can just seed the two finalists (Gaignun and Avalanche) for the bracket

Quote from: Ahong on July 02, 2013, 04:44:16 am
This tourney will be crazy, (a lot of strong team recently). When the tourney start by the way?

I would think sometime this weekend pending on how fast we set up the rest

Quote from: Barren on July 02, 2013, 07:21:08 am
With that said, having 34 people in is still good, we can just seed the two finalists (Gaignun and Avalanche) for the bracket

Actually, all but four entrants get bys (or, rather, there are two preliminary matches).  The winner of these matches face off against the top-seeded players in the next set.

If you want to do it that way its fine with me

Unfortunately, there is no other way when you have more than a full bracket.  We're 2 over 32, so we need to give 30 byes one way or another.  The cleanest way is to give all the byes in the first round.  We might be able to distribute byes between multiple rounds, or give multiple byes to top-seeded players, but this makes the brackets messy.

hmm right. Well let's see how the brackets turn out then we'll decide from there

http://www.printyourbrackets.com/34-team-seeded-double-elimination.html

Yeah, just looking at "print your brackets" website.  I don't think it's too big of a deal.  Four players "play in" to the first round and then the winners will face Gaignun and Avalanche.  That's not too big of a deal because those two haven't built good teams in ages. ;)

challonge.com
way easier

(Gods, damn it.)

Okay, so I'm "back"-ish. I swear, I knew this would happen when I tried to change over my Internet. Fucking AT&T.

So, my Internet is going to still be out until at least Friday, by which time it's "supposed" to be fixed. I'll remain skeptical until that actually happens though since I've been without Internet since Saturday, hence why I "disappeared".

I suppose it's better that this happened before the tournament actually started and that I have access to at least some connection, even if it's...spotty at best and is horrible with trying to do video anything. Ugh. I also was using this all of yesterday to try to fix said problem, but considering I was on the phone and stuff...yeah.

Still, I apologize for the delay and checking up sooner.

If it would be easier to 33 people, then I'll gladly drop out even though I'm about to send Barren my team (finally) that I actually had ready on Saturday.

It's up to everyone else, really, especially since I wasn't going to be around on Thursday at all anyway and tomorrow looks spotty considering everything else I have to do.

Go ahead and submit your team. The brackets will be fine.

(I meant to post this two hours ago, but like I said, "spotty".)

Okay. So team typed up & then sent, and then re-typed up & re-sent after the forum timed out on me...and then revised slightly & re-re-sent after CT5Holy found an (itty-bitty) error that I, of course, made. Sigh.

So that's finally done at least.

Have we decided on the maps, though? Or even the map order? I ask partly because the only person that commented on the former was Gaignun (still) and I agree with Dokurider on the latter in that we shouldn't be changing map order. In the case of the latter, though, I guess I'd maybe be open to a Medium, Small, Large order due to also being sick of Quickening & Spellguns, but, again, I agree with Dokurider here.

Quote from: Gaignun on June 29, 2013, 12:36:42 pm
Thanks for the revisions.  A few comments:

Hospital in Slums: Aside from being visually disorienting and containing bottlenecks, this map gives spellcasters an overwhelming advantage.  Imagine the grief of trying to reach stationary Lore/Dance users while being held up by tanks blocking the doorways.  For these reasons, I think it should still be omitted.

Fovoham Plains: I know I labeled this medium, but on second thought, it should probably be large.  We need fewer medium maps and more large ones, anyway.

Warjilis Trade City:  P1 is fenced in by the water.  Meanwhile, P2 has an entire city to retreat into when taking heat.  It's not balanced.

Port of Warjilis:  Nasty, nasty bottlenecks.  Me no like.

The rest looks more or less fine.

I'll be "concise" here for once, if only due to connection:

1. Hospital in the Slums: I concur.


2. Fovoham "Plains": I suppose I concur, especially given the great height distance and the A.I. not charging at each other all the time. We definitely could have less medium maps, though.


3. Warjilis Trade City: I guess I agree, even though that's hardly ever happened to my recollection. I'm admittedly biased to liking all of the Warjilis maps from an aesthetic stand-point.


4. Port of Warjilis: Meh. I actually disagree here a bit. It's not that bottlenecks don't exist here, obviously, and I'll admit that initially I also didn't like this map, but it's more a problem of not being hypocritical or willfully selective. After all, if we got rid of this having bottlenecks that can actually (?) be overcome, then we'd also have to get rid of the maps like the Entrance of Death City or TIGER or VALKYRIES since those two can have passage that "clog up". Hell, we'd also have to get rid of other maps that don't necessarily have bottlenecks, but have "killing corridors" like Outside of Limberry Castle or Underneath Limberry Castle, especially with how dumb the A.I. can be about bunching up for AoE. I think it's "fine", though it could probably be improved by, I don't know, starting on the boat itself since we need more Small (usable) maps anyway.

Ultimately, I guess it could "die" or not be used for the tournament since I don't think we're changing maps' positions and such at all given that for the last tournament we didn't, for instance, get rid of the orrery in Besrodio's house, but I'd just rather not start down that slipper slope. In the instance of the Hospital in the Slums, those bottlenecks are easy to create AND can't be overcome by anything other than Teleport, unlike how at least Fly, Float, Geomancers, Longbows and other things can get rid around the ship at Warjilis. (This even if they often don't due to the A.I. being very dumb about things at times.)


Other maps I could probably reconsider just because...if I wasn't doing other things and my Internet connection wasn't currently giving me a constant, literally blinking red middle finger.

Can we be sure that maps 120-124 don't exist?  I only ask because people have been saying that about 000 and it turns out that 000 just needs light.

Quote from: The Damned on June 28, 2013, 11:55:20 pm
(I...don't know to feel how about that map order, honestly. Admittedly, I also didn't know how to feel about the initial "Medium, Large, Small" you apparently accidentally posted. The currently suggested one seems to heavily favor melee teams.

The map order is ultimately up to you though, Barren.)

Speaking of map stuff, I was reminded that I wanted to again post the map stuff I've still been mulling over with regards to the "acceptable" maps for ARENA that got somewhat waylayed by the Jot5 focus and tag-teamed by my own indolence. I figure we should at least talk about a bit considering that Gaignun admitted his own map selection from last year was as thorough as he wanted when I modified it a bit about three or four months ago:

spoiler: Presently Accepted Maps of Gaignun at his Last Revision

Any parenthetical commentary here is Gaignun's.


1. 001 - At Main Gate of Igros Castle [Medium]
2. 002 - Back Gate of Lesalia Castle [Medium]
3. 003 - Hall of St. Murond Temple [Medium]
4. 004 - Office of Lesalia Castle [Small]
5. 005 - Roof of Riovanes Castle [Medium]
6. 006 - At the Gate of Riovanes Castle [Large]
7. 008 - Riovanes Castle [Small]
8. 010 - Inside of Igros Castle (movement restricted for units without fly/teleport/ignore height) [Medium]
9. 012 - Office of Igros Castle [Small]
10. 013 - Inside of Lionel Castle [Small]
11. 014 - Office of Igros Castle (extremely small - teams are susceptible to fatal first round AoE) [Small]
12. 016 - Inside of Limberry Castle [Medium]
13. 017 - Underground Cemetary of Limberry Castle [Medium]
14. 018 - Office of Limberry Castle [Small]
15. 019 - At the Gate of Limberry Castle (2) [Medium]
16. 020 - Inside of Zeltennia Castle [Small]
17. 021 - Zeltennia Castle [Small]
18. 022 - Magic City Gariland [Medium]
19. 024 - Military Academy's Auditorium (units with fly/teleport can escape to the elevated platform) [Small]
20. 025 - Yardow Fort City [Small]
21. 027 - Goland Coal City [Medium]
22. 028 - Colliery Underground First Floor (large size, but fighting is clustered in the high region) [Medium]
23. 029 - Colliery Underground Second Floor [Large]
24. 030 - Colliery Underground Third Floor [Large]
25. 031 - Dorter Trade City [Medium]
26. 032 - Slums in Dorter (large size, but fighting is clustered on the ground) [Medium]
27. 034 - Cellar of Sand Mouse [Medium]
28. 035 - Zaland Fort City [Medium]
29. 037 - Ruins Outside Zaland [Large]
30. 044 - Bervenia Free City [Large]
31. 045 - Ruins of Zeltennia Castle's Church [Large]
32. 046 - Cemetary of Heavenly Knight Balbanes (medium size, but placement is separated) [Large]
33. 048 - Slums in Zarghidas (large size, but fighting is clustered on one half of the map) [Medium]
34. 049 - Fort Zeakden [Medium]
35. 051 - St. Murond Temple [Small]
36. 053 - Entrance to Death City (units can escape melee damage by fleeing the centre platform) [Small]
37. 054 - Lost Sacred Precincts (bottlenecks exist, but there is plenty of room to run around) [Large]
38. 055 - Graveyard of Airships [Large]
39. 056 - Orbonne Monastery [Medium]
40. 058 - Underground Book Storage Second Floor (medium size, but fighting is clustered above the stairs) [Small]
41. 060 - Underground Book Storage Fourth Floor (large size, but fighting is clustered in the lower region) [Medium]
42. 061 - Underground Book Storage Fifth Floor [Large]
43. 063 - Golgorland Execution Site [Medium - may go]
44. 065 - Granary of Bethla Garrison [Small]
45. 068 - Bethla Garrison [Small]
46. 069 - Murond Death City [Medium]
47. 071 - Dolbodar Swamp [Large]
48. 072 - Fovoham Plains (large size, but fighting is clustered by the water) [Medium]
49. 073 - Inside of Windmill Shed (units might attempt to throw items through the elevated platform and fail) [Small]
50. 074 - Sweegy Woods [Large]
51. 075 - Bervenia Volcano [Medium - improve start points]
52. 076 - Zeklaus Desert [Large]
53. 077 - Lenalia Plateau [Medium]
54. 079 - Yuguo Woods [Medium]
55. 080 - Araguay Woods [Medium - more a Large Map]
56. 084 - Bariaus Hill (close placement) [Large]
57. 085 - Mandalia Plains (fighting tends to cluster in one corner) [Large]
58. 086 - Doguola Pass (medium size, but clustered fighting in low region) [Small]
59. 087 - Bariaus Valley [Large]
60. 088 - Finath River [Large]
61. 089 - Poeskas Lake [Large]
62. 090 - Germinas Peak [Medium]
63. 091 - Thieves Fort [Medium]
64. 092 - Igros, Beoulve Residence [Small]
65. 094 - Broke Down Shed-Stone Building [Small]
66. 096 - Pub [Small]
67. 098 - Outside Castle Gate in Lesalia [Medium]
68. 100 - Public Cemetary [Large]
69. 101 - Tutorial (1) [Medium]
70. 102 - Tutorial (2) [Large]
71. 103 - Windmill Shed (distant unit placement for a small map) [Small - has other problems. Should go?]
72. 105 - TERMINATE [Large]
73. 106 - DELTA [Large]
74. 108 - VOYAGE (map is large, but narrow) [Medium]
75. 109 - BRIDGE [Large]
76. 110 - VALKYRIES (extremely distant placement and clustered fighting upon contact) [Large - should go]
77. 112 - TIGER (units with fly/teleport outpace their team) [Large]
78. 113 - HORROR (large map, but fighting is clustered on one side) [Small]
79. 118 - Checkerboard Land 2 [Medium]
80. 125 - Checkerboard Stairs [Large]

spoiler: Maps That I Had to Check for Being Unacceptable

I didn't check map 000, though apparently it's an utterly broken map, at least on the visual level...which is kind of important.

All bracket commentary here is mine. Some of it's probably outdated.


1. 007 - Inside of Riovanes Castle [seems fine as Medium]
2. 009 - Citadel of Igros Castle [cannot be fixed]
3. 011 - Office of Igros Castle [possibly fine; Small]
4. 015 - At the Gate of Limberry Castle (1) [no fix]
5. 023 - Belouve [sic] Residence [Outside; fine?; Small]
6. 026 - Weapon Storage of Yardow [fine? narrow=4tile; L]
7. 033 - Hospital in Slums ["3D" map; maybe fine; Large]
8. 036 - Church Outside of Town [fine w/ differed start?]
9. 038 - Goug Machine City [cannot be fixed]
10. 039 - Underground Passage in Goland [like 026; Large]
11. 040 - Slums in Goug [personally seems fine; Med or L]
12. 041 - Besrodio's House [just take out orrery; Med]
13. 042 - Warjilis Trade City [P1 H-adv? Fine?; Medium]
14. 043 - Port of Warjilis [P2 H-adv? Fine?; Medium]
15. 047 - Zarghidas Trade City [fine; Medium or Large?]
16. 050 - St. Murond Temple [Outside; cannot be fixed]
17. 052 - Chapel of St. Murond Temple [Zalbag; no fix?]
18. 057 - Underground Book Storage First Floor [OK? M? L?]
19. 059 - Underground Book Storage Third Floor [fine?; L]
20. 062 - Chapel of Orbonne Monastery [cannot be fixed]
21. 064 - In Front of Bethla Garrison's Sluice [no fix]
22. 066 - South Wall of Bethla Garrison [fine?; Medium]
23. 067 - Noth [sic] Wall of Bethla Garrison [no fix]
24. 070 - Nelveska Temple [banned for good reason]
25. 078 - Zigolis Swamp [cannot be fixed?]
26. 081 - Grog Hill [cannot be fixed?; would be Large]
27. 082 - Bed Desert [can be fixed?; would be Large]
28. 083 - Zirekile Falls [cannot be fixed]
29. 093 - Broke Down Shed-Wooden Building [Dortr1; OK?; S]
30. 095 - Church [fine; Medium map]
31. 097 - Inside Castle Gate in Lesalia [fine?; Medium]
32. 099 - Main Street of Lesalia [fine; Large map]
33. 104 - Belouve [sic?] Residence [Repeat of 092]
34. 107 - NOGIAS [cannot be fixed]
35. 111 - MLAPAN [possibly fine...outside of Fly; "Small"]
36. 114 - END [banned for good reason]
37. 115 - Banished Fort [cannot be fixed]
38. 116 - Arena [could easily be fixed with better start]
39. 117 - Checkboard Land 1 [cannot be fixed]
40. 119 - Checkboard Land 3 [just 118 with different start]
41. 120 - [doesn't exist?]
42. 121 - [doesn't exist?]
43. 122 - [doesn't exist?]
44. 123 - [doesn't exist?]
45. 124 - [doesn't exist?]

(Thanks for reminding to me to fix that damn spoiler error now that I could.)

As far as maps 120-124, no, I'm personally not 100% certain they don't exist. [/triple negative nightmare]

That said, it would be more trouble than it's worth but to try to find out/confirm that they exist, confirm that they're even usable and then debate as to whether they are tournament "worthy" given all the other maps we have to debate; well, that and the fact that no one has done it by now.

As far as map 000 goes, I was under the impression that it had more problems to it than just needing light. Hence why no one has used it for recordings, even Barren in his relative map laxity/map inclusiveness.

Quote from: The Damned on July 03, 2013, 04:21:26 am
(Thanks for reminding to me to fix that damn spoiler error now that I could.)

As far as maps 120-124, no, I'm personally not 100% certain they don't exist. [/triple negative nightmare]

That said, it would be more trouble than it's worth but to try to find out/confirm that they exist, confirm that they're even usable and then debate as to whether they are tournament "worthy" given all the other maps we have to debate; well, that and the fact that no one has done it by now.

As far as map 000 goes, I was under the impression that it had more problems to it than just needing light. Hence why no one has used it for recordings, even Barren in his relative map laxity/map inclusiveness.

Oh yeah, maps 120-124 is something not to be debated now.  I guess it's something I didn't really need to bring up at all, at least not with the hectics of everything else going on.

For the map order I was thinking of Small, Medium, Large. Does anyone object?

Quote from: Barren on July 03, 2013, 07:38:31 am
For the map order I was thinking of Small, Medium, Large. Does anyone object?

Whatever is the most neutral should be last so that if there's a double victory on a small map and a large map (I.E. the team with the advantage on the large map lost anyway) we don't need to do the medum match.

(Hmmm...the connection seems slightly better today, but maybe that's just because I cleaned up this borrowed laptop in general.)

Regardless, I have too much to do still for me to be on here (actively) for all that long.

So I'll just say two things generally here (since I don't want to bother with PMs right now):


1. I assume that was the last team, right, Barren?

2. When it comes to the Loser's matches, I'll gladly take 3 matches since I personally feel like FFMaster should do the least recordings given everything else he has to do and his timezone being so different from everyone's else. We'll see how Friday (and tomorrow) go for me, though, and it's really up to Dokurider or FFMaster who wants to do 2 or 3 really. [/is probably an asshole for somewhat publicly putting Dokurider somewhat "on the spot" in a way, but you already knew that]

3. Personally, after the tournament starts, I'm probably going to need team names from everyone. Otherwise I'm making up my own (punny) ones. (Blind EDIT[ing]: Damn it, I really need to stop omitting things even when I proofread, which I need to start doing more than just once, and then edit, which I need to stop having to do more than once.)


As for the other things....

Quote from: Barren on July 03, 2013, 07:38:31 am
For the map order I was thinking of Small, Medium, Large. Does anyone object?

Objection! (http://objection.mrdictionary.net/go.php?n=6781669)


As the above says, I see no point in changing the map order, even if we're that worried about Spellguns or Quickening. If those things have such a huge advantage (on a Large map), then why are even allowing their inclusion instead of just, you know, banning them? It's pretty clear that they're both (absurdly) overpowered and, in Quickening's case, broken, so...?

(And, no, I'm not suddenly bringing this up now since I rather asked it from the beginning and cited it as my reason for maybe waiting for 1.39. If we're definitely going with 1.38d and letting everything in, then it seems kinda...half-assed, to be blunt, to try to change map order now to try to futilely circumvent the probably inevitable ultimate victory by a Quickening-using and/or Spellgun-using team. Speaking of being contrary though....)

Alternately, why include a Large map at all if we're so worried about those abilities and having teams that will inevitably use them will fight on two "disadvantaged" maps at all in transparent hopes they'll never get there? Why not just go Small, Medium, Medium then? [/Devil's Advocate]

Obviously, more than they are advantaged by a Large map, given a large map benefits pretty much all non-Paladin mages. It's just that Quickening and Spellguns tend to be way more abusive than mages in general and both of those, especially Spellguns, also "counter" mages. Quickening by just constantly interrupting & re-directing and Spellguns by OHKO'ing them unless they have Magic. Defense UP or White Robe or Setiemson or some combination; Projectile Guard is still a crapshoot even if they're carrying 70 and/or Pilgrimage. The problem is furthered, then, by the fact that distance weapons, especially guns in general, greatly reduce map sizes as it is. So if we really are worried about Spellguns (and Quickening), then it seems a bit odd to put mages in OHKO range from the start twice consecutively before then proceeding to another map where Spellguns (and Quickening) supposedly still have the advantage anyway....

I guess what I'm saying is that everyone already knows (finally) that Quickening & Spellguns are the King & Queen(s) of ARENA 1.38d. Given they're currently also King & Queen of the United States of "Fuck You, Mages", if we're allowing them, then why are we making them even stronger by changing a map order that worked before?


Let's just use "Small, Large, Medium" please since that's worked well before and leave changing up map order to the inevitable 1.39x tournament where things probably won't be as egregiously overpowered. (Or at least more stuff will be perhaps be equally overpowered so it kind of "balances out" like Rainbow Edition or Marvel/Capcom vs. Anything not-SNK.)

Quote from: woodenbandman on July 03, 2013, 09:48:43 am
Whatever is the most neutral should be last so that if there's a double victory on a small map and a large map (I.E. the team with the advantage on the large map lost anyway) we don't need to do the medum match.

Also, this.

Quote from: reinoe on July 03, 2013, 05:14:21 am
Oh yeah, maps 120-124 is something not to be debated now.  I guess it's something I didn't really need to bring up at all, at least not with the hectics of everything else going on.

Meh. It's fine and a valid question, so I'm not sure why you're pseudo-apologizing for mere curiosity. I just honestly don't know on both cases personally, especially since double-checking whether maps 120-124 even exist at all probably involves coding of some kind and I've still never even bothered to try doing that. Also, as I've said, I'm pretty sure no one has ever really checked.

Try asking Pride or something if you're generally curious given how good he is at coding. Maybe Kokojo would know given all the map work he's done thus far.

That said, I wouldn't be surprised if they're just repeats of each other or something though given a couple of existing maps already repeat each other as I also noted there; the repeated maps show just how powerful changes to initial starting positions are too.

*looks at Volcano and the Arena maps, among others, as maps that would be greatly improved with a change to starting coordinates*

Allright, we'll do small, large, medium then

Gaignun whenever you're ready to post the brackets, I think FFM, Doku, and The Damned has decided on how they can do the loser's bracket

CT5Holy is managing the brackets.  Did he give you a link?

(Okay. Small-Large-Medium it [still] is. Good.)

Yes, Gaignun. CT5Holy PM'd us all the Brackets and the link to--*checks PMs*--yesterday.

By the way, a note to CT5HOLY...don't feel bad about talking for longer than a match.  I always appreciate the insight.  Plus other AI COMMENTATORS do it all the time in my casual matches.  Proof...