Final Fantasy Hacktics

Modding => Non-FFT Modding => FFTA/FFTA2 Hacking => Topic started by: on December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 pm

Poll
Question: Do you like this approach?
Option 1: Yes votes: 7
Option 2: No votes: 3
Title: FFTA with less A-abilities per job
Post by: rrs_kai on July 22, 2020, 04:28:10 pm
Only 4 of a job's action abilities are generally good/useful. The others are/become redundant as the player gets to the end game. If all the abilities were good, then the job is too powerful/overused.
So, I had this idea tried to reduce the abilities to 4 per job (a few got 5) to make each job unique. Although it can be even more fine-tuned, I'm quite happy with my test and here is a spreadsheet. Even the three black/white mages are different now.

There is another advantage. The game has many unused slots, which we can now be used for custom classes with a few custom skills.

The tab is named "Less Skills".
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1MjqOJdqyY_1azzn9dQikp5GXCB3QTM0INVOgfDwc8ro/edit?usp=sharing]

If I find some time, I'll make a patch for this. Please let me know your thoughts.
Title: Re: FFTA with less A-abilities per job
Post by: chocolatemoose on July 22, 2020, 11:30:30 pm
I agree with the way you're thinking about this, which is that FFTA and A2 have a ton of useless abilities that you would never use. I am a little sympathetic to abilities that you could at least use for part of the game before moving onto more advanced versions (e.g. fire->fira->firaga), but there's a ton of trash in there.

I think you only need to worry about certain jobs being overpowered if they're clearly always a better choice compared to another pick. You could solve that by either nerfing the OP job or making the underpowered ones more useful. If you can't come up with a worthwhile ability, cut it.

Reducing the number of abilities is not the only option you have available. Another option is to change the useless abilities to abilities that a player might have a use for. That's what I'm trying to do with the mod I'm working on anyhow (so long, Parley!).
Title: Re: FFTA with less A-abilities per job
Post by: rrs_kai on July 23, 2020, 12:13:22 am
Quote from: chocolatemoose on July 22, 2020, 11:30:30 pmFFTA and A2 have a ton of useless abilities that you would never use
FFTA2 has even more jobs, but the game handles the 4 effects per ability very well. Animations also show the added effects. This leads to many nice ideas.

Quote from: chocolatemoose on July 22, 2020, 11:30:30 pmAnother option is to change the useless abilities to abilities that a player might have a use for.
I did that, and ended up with a lot of jobs that had similarities. This is my attempt at uniqueness.
For example: Soldier, Warrior, Fencer, and Mog knight are nearly similar. So, I removed the common abilities and kept the unique ones.
Title: Re: FFTA with less A-abilities per job
Post by: Leonarth on July 23, 2020, 08:37:18 am
Quote from: undefinedThe game has many unused slots, which we can now be used for custom classes with a few custom skills.
You can also just repoint the job table and make all new slots.
Nothing preventing you from getting up to 0xFF jobs in there, so more than double the original ammount, at least nothing I've seen.

And as far as ability ammount goes, the only race you need to worry about there is Hume, and that's only if you aren't using 1 bit abilities, otherwise you have a huge ammount of slots to play with.

I personally think there's some jobs that need their abilities, Black Mage, Thief, Morphers and Beastmasters come to mind for me. They just wouldn't be the same with less abilities.
Title: Re: FFTA with less A-abilities per job
Post by: rrs_kai on July 23, 2020, 01:29:45 pm
Quote from: Leonarth on July 23, 2020, 08:37:18 amNothing preventing you from getting up to 0xFF jobs in there
I will get to this
Quote from: Leonarth on July 23, 2020, 08:37:18 amI personally think there's some jobs that need their abilities, Black Mage, Thief, Morphers and Beastmasters come to mind for me.
Aren't these the redundant ones?
Black mages I understand, but aren't thieves are mostly just to steal weapons and then armor, accessories, and abilities.
All the beastmaster's abilities could be summed into just one.

I thought minimalism would work.

Quote from: Leonarth on July 23, 2020, 08:37:18 amThey just wouldn't be the same with less abilities.
To me this is a Dragoon. Just can't imagine him without the breath abilities, but I removed them because Bangas Cry is superior.
Title: Re: FFTA with less A-abilities per job
Post by: dck on July 23, 2020, 07:26:45 pm
Hi everyone, really cool to see you still working on hacks and ideas!

I think the kind of view you mention in the OP is what pushed me to change so many abilities in LN. At one point I really considered deleting a lot of the overlapping same-class ones with no compensation, but I decided against it because IMO it's pretty fun for your characters to learn new things.
It's true that sixteen different active abilities per character probably leads to some class overlap no matter how you mod them, but at the same time I found that the more I restricted them in number, the less unique characters felt because every job needed to have strong tools of their own not to feel like a gimped choice compared to others.

In my case I just redid the skillsets instead because it felt better to make them conditional and less spammable to allow more distinction. That said, I think that if you have good ideas for what to cut and what to keep, expansion of the abilities you do keep would be key, paired with distribution of passives so you can have factors to tweak that aren't just active abilities.

This sounds pretty interesting overall, curious to see more!
Title: Re: FFTA with less A-abilities per job
Post by: rrs_kai on July 23, 2020, 10:43:19 pm
Quote from: dck on July 23, 2020, 07:26:45 pmIt's true that sixteen different active abilities per character probably leads to some class overlap no matter how you mod them
16 abilities is a lot of flexibility. More so if we think of the Blue mage. This is what I'm trying to address.

Specials like Cid, Babus, Monsters get 3 or 4 abilities, and Ezel only got 2. Whereas the generics get 8+8. Specials in vanilla FFTA are very lack luster.
So, I gave them broken abilities in the Revisited mod to compensate. For example,
---Babus got Death, Break, and Toad with Concentrate and Reflex
---Ezel is a physical Nu Mou that can Strikeback and Dual wield maces. I also gave him Blank Card.
---Cid got Stillness which stops the judge and all enemies.

I want the reduce the generics to 4+4 and make some specials/semi-generics with 8 abilities, because they cannot change classes. Ritz, Shara, and even the named-generics can now get a custom job variant. They can get the 4 generic abilities and 4 custom abilities (the 4 ability slots that I've left out).
(https://i.imgur.com/tQxYhBW.png)

Quote from: dck on July 23, 2020, 07:26:45 pmevery job needed to have strong tools of their own not to feel like a gimped choice compared to others.
true

Quote from: Leonarth on July 23, 2020, 08:37:18 amworry about there is Hume, and that's only if you aren't using 1 bit abilities
So, you can get more then 0xFF abilities per race if you use 1-bit abilities?
Title: Re: FFTA with less A-abilities per job
Post by: dck on July 24, 2020, 07:02:48 am
This approach doesn't sound half bad to me seeing the detail you're going into. It's pretty cool repurposing the basic filler abilities that jobs won't miss into something special for pseudo-unique characters, and you circumvent some of the work involved into a new class since pseudo-uniques have a special sprite overriding the base one anyway.

Although I think you're doing this already, I'd caution against focusing too much on ensuring every class fits the mold of exactly 4 abilities. I think if some spare a bit of individual ability power to have more options, like say elementalist having a wider spread of weaker than average spells, that could help you make them still distinct while having something more to tweak than the raw power/utility in their skillsets.
Title: Re: FFTA with less A-abilities per job
Post by: rrs_kai on July 25, 2020, 06:26:45 pm
Quote from: dck on July 24, 2020, 07:02:48 amIt's pretty cool repurposing the basic filler abilities that jobs won't miss into something special for pseudo-unique characters
The blue mage has the highest number of a-abilities at 21. 19 in vanilla and 2 unused.
Even if we reduce it to 8, we're still left with 13. That's enough for a full job with support and reaction abilities.

Is is possible to add more jobs to the circle? I made the Warrior a human and found that the game can display up to 12 jobs in one circle. If you add another then it only shows 6. This change does not work for any jobs beyond the playable ones, last one being moogle time mage 2B.

Quote from: dck on July 24, 2020, 07:02:48 amfocusing too much on ensuring every class fits the mold of exactly 4 abilities.
I'm trying for 4 or 5 per job.

Quote from: dck on July 24, 2020, 07:02:48 amI think if some spare a bit of individual ability power to have more options, like say elementalist having a wider spread of weaker than average spells, that could help you make them still distinct while having something more to tweak than the raw power/utility in their skillsets.
I don't understand this.
I've already kept the elementalist's 5 damage abilities. I moved their 2 healing abilities to the Bangaa because I gave Viera Curaga and Unicorn. Less redundancy for Viera and unique healing abilities for Bangaa.
Title: Re: FFTA with less A-abilities per job
Post by: Leonarth on July 25, 2020, 08:33:06 pm
Quote from: undefinedIs is possible to add more jobs to the circle? I made the Warrior a human and found that the game can display up to 12 jobs in one circle. If you add another then it only shows 6.
The game can't show more than 12 jobs on that screen, the reason it's showing 6 is that you are using my patches and the wheel has been split into multiple smaller wheels. Swap between them with L and R, there's even an on-screen prompt for that.

Here's an old example:
(https://imgur.com/YjBzC0S.gif)
Title: Re: FFTA with less A-abilities per job
Post by: dck on July 25, 2020, 09:26:57 pm
Quote from: rrs_kai on July 25, 2020, 06:26:45 pmI've already kept the elementalist's 5 damage abilities. I moved their 2 healing abilities to the Bangaa because I gave Viera Curaga and Unicorn. Less redundancy for Viera and unique healing abilities for Bangaa.
You'll have to excuse me, I didn't see you had a gdoc up with changes and planned skillsets. The comment about elementalist was an example regarding keeping not so strong abilities with useful variety to contras with other, more focused sets. I didn't know you had actually already done that lol.

Looking at that gdoc you make some interesting ability choices that I'd need more time to really comment on, but I noticed a few other things I'd wanna talk about when skimming over the changelogs:

It seems like you also restructured racial stats so all races have the same base. I don't know if you're running the level scaling hack, but if you are you might have some trouble with the starting party being extremely weak due to generating at level 1, and thus having no extra stat points that help them with their class at all.
That's something I myself didn't solve yet, so be sure to mention if you have any ideas!

I read you were giving every class shields or considering it? Idk if you have a different method to give them but from what I recall just toggling them like any other gear piece didn't work for shields and wouldn't let classes wear them regardless of having it enabled or not.

Also I don't think I saw that job wheel hack when I was last around. That seems really useful for sure, and the UI looks almost native. Very cool.
Title: Re: FFTA with less A-abilities per job
Post by: rrs_kai on July 26, 2020, 12:33:33 am
Quote from: Leonarth on July 25, 2020, 08:33:06 pmthe reason it's showing 6 is that you are using my patches
Oh, I forgot you made this. Is there a way to add more jobs to the wheel without losing any default ones?

Quote from: dck on July 25, 2020, 09:26:57 pmyou make some interesting ability choices that I'd need more time to really comment on
Please do

Quote from: dck on July 25, 2020, 09:26:57 pmIt seems like you also restructured racial stats so all races have the same base.
All jobs of a race have the same base stats. Looking at LN, you've done similarly.

Quote from: dck on July 25, 2020, 09:26:57 pmI don't know if you're running the level scaling hack, but if you are you might have some trouble with the starting party being extremely weak due to generating at level 1, and thus having no extra stat points that help them with their class at all.
I have included level scaling as an optional hack, but I did intentionally make the starting party Lv.1. I did this to fix Marche and Montblac having bad bases in vanilla and hence becoming inflexible. Marche being bad magically and Montblanc being bad physically.

Quote from: dck on July 25, 2020, 09:26:57 pmThat's something I myself didn't solve yet, so be sure to mention if you have any ideas!
I tried adding stats to accessories and liked it.

For Magical jobs: Rods and Staves, but not Maces.
They give 20 MAG, gloves give 10 MAG, and boots give another 10 MAG. These 40 MAG points are really good early game. Its worth 4 level ups. I've increased their values slightly to scale late game. I've also made magical variants for every weapon type, for end game use. For example, the Legalace sword has 51 ATK and 15 MAG, while the Chirijiraden has 62 ATK.

Magical Bangaa are not great. They can make do early game, but they will catch up for late game.

For Physical jobs: Not much, just 2H weapons.
2H weapons range from 50 to 99 ATK while 1H range from 28 to 66 ATK. Gloves give 5 ATK and boots give another 5 ATK. It's only 5 because the damage formula for physical weapons adds it to both the character and the weapon's ATK number.
So, effectively, you've got 60 ATK for your very first 2H weapon. Great early game.

I don't have any solution for physical Nu Mou though, at least for the early game. They will catch up later.
Do you have any ideas?

By the way, do know how to increase the range of Souls? Just increasing their range in the AIO does not reflect in-game. I like their animation and the Nu Mou even shoots stuff from the soul when performing a combo.

Quote from: dck on July 25, 2020, 09:26:57 pmI read you were giving every class shields or considering it? Idk if you have a different method
Sephiran found a way here https://ffhacktics.com/smf/index.php?msg=217685 (https://ffhacktics.com/smf/index.php?msg=217685)
You can also give ITEM to all playable jobs.

TLDr:
For shields: Change the bytes at 0x080CAD5E to 73 2A 12 DD. Then, select it in AIO.
If you want all jobs with the hidden Item A-Ability, use this: Change the bytes at 0x080C8232 to 73 28 00 DC
If you want only playable and changeable jobs with the hidden Item A-Ability, use this: Change the bytes at 0x080C8232 to 2B 28 00 DC
Title: Re: FFTA with less A-abilities per job
Post by: Leonarth on July 26, 2020, 12:03:46 pm
QuoteIf you want all jobs with the hidden Item A-Ability, use this: Change the bytes at 0x080C8232 to 73 28 00 DC
If you want only playable and changeable jobs with the hidden Item A-Ability, use this: Change the bytes at 0x080C8232 to 2B 28 00 DC
Do NOT use these changes with my engine hacks, you will just mess with the new code. Edit the corresponding tables in "\Engine Hacks\jobAndRaceCustomization\data.event" instead. The newNoItemEquipJobs and newItemJobs will allow you to set which jobs can't access Item and which ones get it as a third command like the Alchemist, respectively.


Quote from: undefinedOh, I forgot you made this. Is there a way to add more jobs to the wheel without losing any default ones?
I don't understand the question, I thought you already added more jobs to the wheel?
What do you mean by "losing any default ones"?

A job will be available if:
- It is for the same race (this is the only time race is checked for a job, unsure if this even does anything in vanilla).
- The vanilla-like unlock conditions are met.
- The extra conditions (set in jobAbilityTable.event) are met, both unlock and view conditions.

A job will show up (but not be selectable) if:
- It is for the same race (this is the only time race is checked for a job).
- The unlock bit is set (the game remembers you unlocked it at some point).
- The extra condition (set in jobAbilityTable.event) is met, just the view condition.

Note that jobAbilityTable.event also supports jobs that do not show up as selectable, but that instead only appear as their action command when selection those, like Llednar's Flair command.

So in short, all you need to do is set the job to be for the same race as the wheel you want it on, then go to jobAbilityTable.event and replace the corresponding "neverShow" pointers with 0 (or your very own custom requirements).

To set a job's race you can use this macro:
#ifndef jobDataTable
#define $C8598
#endif

#ifndef setJobRace
#define setJobRace(job,race) "PUSH; ORG jobDataTable+(0x34*job)+4; BYTE race; POP"
#endif

example:
setJobRace(2,2) //soldier is now a bangaa job
Title: Re: FFTA with less A-abilities per job
Post by: rrs_kai on July 26, 2020, 01:31:01 pm
QuoteWhat do you mean by "losing any default ones
I made a Bangaa Warrior into a Human. So, I gained a Human and lost a Bangaa.

If I use the unused slots to create Humans, they do not reflect in the wheel. Is there a way to add more playable jobs without exchanging any old ones?

I remember you writing something about this using the Hermatic as an example. The base game not supporting more and the LR wheel being the fix?
Title: Re: FFTA with less A-abilities per job
Post by: dck on July 26, 2020, 02:06:54 pm
Quote from: undefined>Added stats to items to compensate for low starting level stats.

Damn. Well yeah, that's a fine way to do it sure. I guess I'll have to revisit base stats and growths and move some of that off to items, so the starting level 1 party isn't all that incompetent. Thanks!

Quote from: undefined>Increasing range of Souls.
I know it's possible because I distinctly remember taking a chalice and making it into an enemy-only weapon, but I don't remember specifics. I think there are flags you can modify in AIO to change them to be ranged weapons, and then changing their range should show up properly.

Quote from: undefined>Shield and item commands.
Very good to hear about this. I'm not sure I actually want to do that but it's an interesting option.

Regarding class changes I'll note down thoughts on jobs below, the only assumptions I'm making are that their available gear is the same and multiclassing is similar too.
SOLDIER:
Chakra seems like it's gonna backfire pretty hard in my opinion. It's a zero cost magic based self-heal with really high power (40%+ stronger than Cura). It won't do so much for phys jobs, but if any magic class takes soldier for utility they'll be healing to nearly full and curing ailments for 0 MP.

PALADIN:
Nurse instead has low enough power that it might be very disappointing to try and heal with it. Depends on your power growths for paladin vs other classes but it's something to watch out for.

BLACK MAGE:
Can't really see black mage in this game with other damaging spells than the three elemental ones, but not necessarily bad. Power seems comparatively low vs Illusionist, though MP cost could be a balance factor.

ARCHER:
Always seen it as more of a status effect class, but the options aren't bad.

HUNTER:
Hibernating on Sidewinder seems a bit weird, since it dispels negative status effects so it could be almost a positive instead of a drawback. Ultima Shot... Well unless it requires a greatbow (I think you can't make magic abilities have weapon reqs?) it's a massive damage spell for any magical class that takes Hunter as secondary class.

WARRIOR:
Same comment as before regarding Hibernation.

DRAGOON:
Putting recoil on an AoE is cool, but I'm pretty sure only the last hit will deal damage to the user.

DEFENDER:
Damn I thought the class was already pretty cool with AoE Defend and then it can cast Aura on other targets too, might be a bit much.

GLADIATOR:
Those swords are strong as hell compared to how little utility Fighter has, they do pretty good damage (more than Lancet) and apply very strong buffs. Ultima Sword might end up being best used the same way I think would happen to Ultima Shot.

WHITE MONK:
Earth Heal looks very busted, healing again 40% more than the dedicated support class can with 1 tile more of range, for almost the same MP cost. I guess this depends on how bad dedicated Magical Bangaa really are.

BISHOP:
Seems good but would probably be almost always paired with Gladiator for Ultima Sword if the focus is to do magic damage.

TEMPLAR:
Haste is already a very strong effect without having extra stat ups linked to it, at least not with 4 tiles range.

NU MOU:
Not much to say in general, other than White Mage being very MP hungry and weak in terms of healing, which isn't very characteristic of the race closest to magic. Beastmaster's Angel Whisper is mechanically very strong, too much compared to how weak White Mage's healing is.

FENCER:
I guess they can use guns and that explains weapon ranges on the skills, right? Not bad, never really saw Vieras as a race that'd use guns though.

RED MAGE:
Deviates a bit from the overall power available to others like Elementalist, can do nearly twice her damage using less MP and in an area. Massive versatility compared to almost everyone else. (Got an idea to rework my Red Mage from this though!)

ASSASSIN:
Ague seems very strong, maybe too much, but it's still a rather nice exchange for having to close in to melee range -except it doesn't matter much for Assassins since they want to be in melee all the same. Will probably steal this for my Time Mages!

SNIPER:
Doom Archer is a bit excessive with also applying doom to the target.

GUNNER:
Although it's nice not being able to Ultima Charge people with gun range, Gunner abilities were some of the few that'd apply status effects on hit every time without checking resistance (only respecting immunity). A Concentrate Gunner can probably charm and stop across the battlefield with very high precision.

JUGGLER:
Dagger and Firebomb do a ton of damage compared to other melee classes with physical abilities. I guess could vary depending on phys growth for Moogles.

GADGETEER:
Very strong support paired with extremely strong healing, sounds like a combo to make it a must-have secondary ability set and probably makes Black Mages too much of a swiss army knife.

BLACK MAGE:
Most of the identity seems stripped to me to be honest. Class itself is functional or should be, but it does stand out a lot that they have none of the abilities they usually do.

TIME MAGE:
Seems outclassed by Gadgeteer. Sleep already normally lowers evasion I think? I guess it also keeps them at 0 until they get their turn, sleep is pretty strong by itself though.

I mostly mention things that I think can stand to be rechecked or stand out as too strong or weak, but the overall feel of classes seems good to me and the idea behind the ability cuts seems solid as well- not many feel like they're being diversified for diversification's sake without further reason, but I do think it's pretty awkward losing some defining abilities like in Moguri Black Mage's case (even if it results in an overall sizeable bump in power).
Title: Re: FFTA with less A-abilities per job
Post by: rrs_kai on July 27, 2020, 02:36:20 pm
Quote from: dck on July 26, 2020, 02:06:54 pmRegarding class changes I'll note down thoughts on jobs below, the only assumptions I'm making are that their available gear is the same and multiclassing is similar too.
Thanks a lot for your time and the feedback.

Quote from: dck on July 26, 2020, 02:06:54 pmRegarding class changes I'll note down thoughts on jobs below, the only assumptions I'm making are that their available gear is the same and multiclassing is similar too.
Gear and class change is same.
Soldier
Replaced Chakra with First aid, power decreased from 99 to 70.

Paladin
Nurse is fine for me. Although the heal is a bit weak AOE status is quite useful.

Black mage
Decreased power of illusions from 32 to 30.

Hunter and Warrior
Sidewinder also removes positive buffs like regen and re-raise.

Dragoon
Yes, recoil is only one hit. Alternative would be to increase recoil from 33% to 50%.

Defender
AOE is defend is not as good as it might seem. I'm still confused between Warcry and Sacrifice.

Gladiator
Decreased power from 65 to 55. I'll look at making him similar to a Parivir, if not I'll remove the effects.

White monk
Replaced Earth heal with Cheer. Cheer = All stat Up + Haste, range 1, zero MP

Bishop
Move decreased from 4 to 3. I'll into adding AOE to White Flame.

Templar
Move decreased from 4 to 3. Replaced Cheer with Earth Heal.

White mage
Raise = power increased from 50 to 65

Beastmaster
Angel whisper = power decreased to 99

Fencer
They still have raipers. Its a nod to the spellblade from ffta2.

Red mage
Thanks, I forgot to decrease power. Fire/Thunder/Ice = power decreased from 40 to 35.

Sniper
Doom Archer never does full HP damage, some times it does 90% MP damage. Doom was added to fit the name and to make up for the loss of Death Sickle.

Gunner
I still need a 4th skill. I'm not sure what else to do here. Also, jobs with 3 move have 80% status defense. So, it's not as bad as vanilla.

Juggler
Range is only 2, to limit status. He got dual wield as well.

Theif
He got similar skill at 80 power with 4 range. Any comments?

Gadgeteer
Gold Battery = power decreased from 99 to 70, MP decreased from 48 to 24
I find it funny that you've not commented on Yellow spring (Defend + Protect + Shell).

Time mage
I want to give him hastega, but the animation does not exist. Sleep/Stop is evasion zero till they wake up.
Title: Re: FFTA with less A-abilities per job
Post by: dck on July 27, 2020, 03:43:25 pm
DRAGOON:
I didn't really think the lack of full recoil was an issue tbh, I was mostly mentioning since I remember I was surprised by how multiple hits that leech/recoil are handled.

CHEER:
I think that's a much more interesting ability than with huge range, are units able to Cheer themselves? I personally would make it only for non-user targets.

DEFEND:
Defense status isn't the best but it does stack with all other defensive buffs, like protect and def+. It can end up making a huge difference, but I don't think it's OP or anything, just useful.

Regarding the rest, your tweaks seem pretty good to me. Having much higher status defense on some jobs is good if you're using status accuracy in your mod, though I'm pretty sure the gun abilities autoapply on hit and won't actually care about it. I might be misremembering though, easy to check I guess.

I actually completely missed the stacking defenses on Yellow Spring and the damage from Throw Gil! Haha, I'm pretty sure I have a defending move in LN that applies that kind of defensive buffs too although it's not an AoE. I think it kinda makes them a really good healer and support role, even with the nerf of their heal, but you might as well see when you have it all in a playable state.

Btw, high damage non-weapon physical abilities with dual wield tend to be super busted because it just takes the final attack score, adds skill power then uses that skill power as multiplier. The damage is normally ridiculous which is why I was commenting on Dagger and Firebomb, not sure where I read they had dual wield come to think about it lmao.
Title: Re: FFTA with less A-abilities per job
Post by: rrs_kai on July 28, 2020, 03:40:44 pm
Quote from: dck on July 27, 2020, 03:43:25 pmCHEER:
I think that's a much more interesting ability than with huge range, are units able to Cheer themselves? I personally would make it only for non-user targets.
I made it self targetable. Stat bonus is only 10%, unlike the 30% from Weapon Atk+.

Quote from: dck on July 27, 2020, 03:43:25 pmDEFEND:
Defense status isn't the best but it does stack with all other defensive buffs, like protect and def+. It can end up making a huge difference, but I don't think it's OP or anything, just useful.
Yes, stacking with Weapon Def+ is huge.

Quote from: dck on July 27, 2020, 03:43:25 pmI'm pretty sure the gun abilities autoapply on hit and won't actually care about it. I might be misremembering though, easy to check I guess.
I checked Nightmare and it's fine there. I tested it on monsters and it does not always apply, but I don't understand why the proc chance is so high? Is this unusual luck?

Quote from: dck on July 27, 2020, 03:43:25 pmBtw, high damage non-weapon physical abilities with dual wield tend to be super busted because it just takes the final attack score, adds skill power then uses that skill power as multiplier. The damage is normally ridiculous which is why I was commenting on Dagger and Firebomb, not sure where I read they had dual wield come to think about it lmao.
I did not know this.
Dual did not affect the damage, but being empty handed vs having a single weapon made a difference.
Title: Re: FFTA with less A-abilities per job
Post by: dck on July 28, 2020, 05:33:23 pm
I don't know if you changed this, but although Power and Attack stat bonuses from skills are only 10%, the defensive ones are 40% extra to their respective stat -makes a huge difference when stacked on other buffs as you mentioned later.

8e. If the Target is under Defense:
            Def = [Def * 358 / 256] (approximate 40% increase)

I guess I was misremembering the gun shots behaviour then? Weird, I distinctly recall them using a different function that ignores status res, but I guess that was something I worked with too long ago.

I checked up a bit on the mechanics breakdown and I didn't remember the calculation right. It's not dual wielding that tends to cause massive damage on phys abilities with high ab. power values, rather it's having a class that is intended to use low damage weapons (say daggers that cap at 50~ dam or so) and is given an ability with much higher ab. power (say 80+).

The calcs for a "weapon hit" and "phys, ab. power based hit" are the same until the last step, in which all damage gets multiplied by weapon attack/100 for weapon hits, or ab. power/100 in the others. In our example before with 50 and 80, it results in 60% more final damage.

I wasn't sure if you knew about this, so I thought I might as well explain since I like looking at the mechs anyway!
Title: Re: FFTA with less A-abilities per job
Post by: rrs_kai on July 29, 2020, 01:18:33 pm
I remembered this https://ffhacktics.com/smf/index.php?topic=12161.0
Even fixed damage skills are not independent of equipped-weapon.
Title: Re: FFTA with less A-abilities per job
Post by: dck on July 29, 2020, 04:05:25 pm
hahaha, I heard of history repeating itself but I didn't really expect this :D

What an useful conversation that was that even now a year and a half later it helps remember how damage actually works (and reminds me the horror of attack-granting gear taking part in the multiplier, not just weapons).

Thanks kai, I legitimately didn't remember that thread existed at all lmao.
Title: Re: FFTA with less A-abilities per job
Post by: rrs_kai on August 13, 2020, 11:42:55 pm
===Some Update===
Posting some new thoughts. The spreadsheet is updated and renamed to "Less Skills"

---Jobs--
White monk = lost cheer and gained earth heal
Templar = lost cheer and astra; gained chakra and aura
Defender = lost aura and astra; gained warcry and holy sign
Nu Mou Time mage = lost magicbreak and gained astra
Animist = lost sheet count (sleep) and gained tail wag (charm)
Assassin = lost abate and gained conceal
Sniper = lost conceal and speedbreak; gained addle and checkmate
Viera Archer = lost sonic boom and gained aim:vitals
Hunter = lost addle and gained sonic boom
Soldier = lost first aid and gained speedbreak
Paladin = lost nurse and gained first aid
Gunner = lost checkmate; gained power break and mind break (he only had 3 skills before)

---Abilities---
Increased 70 power skills to 75
Speedbreak = physical damage, power 50, knockback and delay enemy
Powerbreak = physical, power 75, heal HP and protect, 24 MP (potion shot and protect shot)
Mindbreak = physical, power 45, heal MP and shell, 24 MP (ether shot and shell shot)
Yellow spring = protect and shell (removed defend), MP decreased from 48 to 32
Defense = power 50, magical, Heal HP, cure Status, Defend and Astra surrounding units (nurse animation)
Aura = range decreased from 3 to 1, Regen, Reraise and All stats Up, 24 MP
White flame = removed self heal, added AOE (self healing had bugs with healing spells)
Earth heal = MP heal, range decreased from 6 to 3, power decreased from 99 to 45
Warcry = reduce enemy speed, self expert guard
Sidewinder = 2x Monster at 1x Accuracy, 0.5x non-Monster at 2x Accuracy (to give it some use on non-monsters, like the vanilla Blitz)
Wyrmkiller = 2x Dragon at 2x Accuracy, 2x non-Dragon at 0.5x Accuracy (to give it some use on non-dragons, like the vanilla Beatdown)
Addle = addle all targets
White wind = MP increased from 32 to 48
Angel whisper = MP increased from 32 to 48
Night = MP increased from 32 to 48
LV? S-Flare = MP increased from 32 to 48
First aid = power 75, magical, heal HP, cure status, defend and regen
Chakra = range 1, heal HP, cure status, protect and shell, 24 MP
Demi = MP decreased from 32 to 24
Astra = status protection and Defend
Reflect = reflect magic damage and Regen
Barrier = protect, shell and defend
Doom archer = lost doom (because sniper got checkmate)

---Equipment---
Leonarth added support for negative number display
shortbow = lost speed bonus (they has some to differentiate from greatbow)
greatbow = 10 speed loss
broadsword and greatsword = 20 speed loss
knightsword = 5 speed loss (experimental, I'm trying to make them the best 1H weapons, like in vanilla)
rods and staves = 5 speed loss (experimental, to compensate for magic bonus)

---Things I am pondering---
skills for thieves
doublesword for bangaa
shields for everyone?
what stats for shields?
rounded stat growths? (I am thinking 0.5 step increments)
doublesword + doubleshot + doublecast = octa-slash
an enemy is going to get this
(https://i.imgur.com/kfHm9jc.gif)
Title: Re: FFTA with less A-abilities per job
Post by: dck on August 14, 2020, 03:49:43 am
About the last thing with rounded growths, 2.5 means the unit will gain either 2 or 3 50% on a coinflip.
With overall lowered stats, this means there will be a much greater power disparity between units just based off of their leveling rng alone. A lucky vs unlucky outcome with 2.5 yields a 50% difference in stats gained, for example.

You can use Leonarth's newLevel engine hack to avoid this, but there are two things to consider:

1- the game won't use those decimal values for anything, meaning it's the same having 14 attack or 14.9

2- characters might miss out on points if they level up and "hold" 0.5, only to switch to a job with whole numbers and forever carry that 0.5 that isn't actually factored in until they level up again in a 0.5 job and it's added to their total stat score

The 2nd part isn't as awful if you have only 0.5 as an inbetween step in growths, since at most units would miss one point at the end, but it's still something to keep in mind since the stats system isn't as intuitive one would initially assume.
Title: Re: FFTA with less A-abilities per job
Post by: rrs_kai on August 14, 2020, 10:07:09 am
Quote from: dck on August 14, 2020, 03:49:43 amA lucky vs unlucky outcome with 2.5 yields a 50% difference in stats gained, for example.
Yes. That's big, but it evens out. I am not sure if I am biased, but I've leveled up many units and the RNG has not been too harsh on me.
Also, all the enemies I saw had properly averaged stats. Some are superior because they get the upper limit in ATK, MAG and Speed, while others get it in DEF, RES and MP, which are not as useful.

Quote from: dck on August 14, 2020, 03:49:43 amYou can use Leonarth's newLevel engine hack to avoid this, but there are two things to consider:
I did see both of Leonarth's stat variance hacks. It's a nice step towards no RNG. Especially the base stat variance hack, which is very good because in vanilla you could have a near 8 points of base speed difference at lv 1. For the slowest units, with 0.8 speed growth, that's worth 10 levels.
I didn't implement it because the enemies will always end up with same stats. Two lv.50 Soldiers would be identical. This is also why I don't have any rounded stat growths. I tried rounded numbers a few years ago and found it quite boring.

Those who played the Revisited mod had requested it, and I think that the main draw is:
-1- Easier min-maxing
-2- Assurance that your recruit is not inferior
Btw, I made everyone in the default party as lv.1 humans (without level scaling applied), and the slot 3 character got the most evened-out stats, and the slot 4 character got the most speed.
Human bases in my mod are 105/45/85/85/85/85/100
(https://i.imgur.com/iKG9Yii.png)(https://i.imgur.com/YIrEKVz.png)
Title: Re: FFTA with less A-abilities per job
Post by: Leonarth on August 14, 2020, 10:47:03 am
Quote from: undefined2- characters might miss out on points if they level up and "hold" 0.5, only to switch to a job with whole numbers and forever carry that 0.5 that isn't actually factored in until they level up again in a 0.5 job and it's added to their total stat score
The way it works is pretty simple:
The game multiplies the growth by your level, and by your level-1.
Then if the level*growth number is bigger than the (level-1)*growth number (removing decimals) you gain the difference between the two.

So, for example, if you leveled up all your levels with a job with 0% growth in speed and then switch to a job with 0.1% grwoth in speed, you could still get one point the very next level up, as long as and only if (in this example) the new level ends on a 0.
0.1*9 = 0.9
0.1*10 = 1
1-0.9 = 1

0.1*10 = 1
0.1*11 = 1.1
1.1-1 = 0

[...]

0.1*19 = 1.9
0.1*20 = 2
2-1.9 = 1

and so on.

Eventually, when I get around to it, the decimals will actually be saved to unit data (if using 1 bit abilities) so that they can be fetched and added up even if you switch jobs.

QuoteI think that the main draw with rounded stats is easier min-maxing.
For me it's the absolute opposite: I don't want to have to think about the stats, I don't want to have to check if I had a terrible level-up or whatever, fixed level ups makes it easy to ignore because there's nothing I can do about it anyway.
Title: Re: FFTA with less A-abilities per job
Post by: rrs_kai on August 14, 2020, 03:34:12 pm
Quote from: Leonarth on August 14, 2020, 10:47:03 amFor me it's the absolute opposite: I don't want to have to think about the stats, I don't want to have to check if I had a terrible level-up or whatever, fixed level ups makes it easy to ignore because there's nothing I can do about it anyway.
Rounded stat growths for all races
Increased base stats for all races to compensate
--- ATK/DEF/MAG/RES growths: Min = 7 and Max = 9
--- Speed growth tiers: Fast = 2, Normal = 1.5, and Slow = 1
--- Difference between speed tiers is 2.5 stat total
Title: Re: FFTA with less A-abilities per job
Post by: dck on August 14, 2020, 04:57:13 pm
Well I was writing a pretty long example of why the RNG level ups are hugely unbalanced (tl;dr, 0.8 growth has a 16% chance of getting 8 points in 10 lv ups) but I guess you're going with whole numbers now?

I won't go into much detail regardless, but keep in mind speed is by far the most important character stat and you'll be having a tier that flips coins to get either minimum or maximum gain.
Looking at the speed numbers on your gdoc it's hard to judge, since you might have speed sources in items, but a 140 to 210 speed range is a 2:3 ratio and imo already gives too much of an advantage to speedier jobs, since acting 3 times instead of two in a given timeframe is extremely strong- still not as bad as some vanilla examples though.

Mind you, maybe the explanations are obvious. I don't really know how familiar you are with them and this is the kind of thing that causes structural issues with unsolvable balance problems later down the road.
Title: Re: FFTA with less A-abilities per job
Post by: rrs_kai on August 14, 2020, 11:40:16 pm
Quote from: dck on August 14, 2020, 04:57:13 pmWell I was writing a pretty long example of why the RNG level ups are hugely unbalanced (tl;dr, 0.8 growth has a 16% chance of getting 8 points in 10 lv ups) but I guess you're going with whole numbers now?
0.8 speed means 80% favourable chance
=> for 10 level ups = 0.8^10 = 10.7% chance for most favourable result. Does the game calculate differently?

Quote from: dck on August 14, 2020, 04:57:13 pm140 to 210 speed range is a 2:3 ratio and imo already gives too much of an advantage to speedier jobs
I thought 140:210 might be fine, because its a difference of 70 from worst to best and 50 between same race. I reduced it 150:200, which is a difference of 50 from worst to best and 30 between same race.

Quote from: dck on August 14, 2020, 04:57:13 pmkeep in mind speed is by far the most important character stat
Thanks for reminding. The speed tiers are back to their previous values:
--- Speed growth tiers: Fast = 1.9, Normal = 1.6, and Slow = 1.3
--- Fast jobs don't get a 9 in any stat growth
Using Leonarth's formula, I ended up with 150:200
(https://i.imgur.com/5L1NEcn.png)
Title: Re: FFTA with less A-abilities per job
Post by: dck on August 15, 2020, 03:54:41 am
Quote from: rrs_kai on August 14, 2020, 11:40:16 pm0.8 speed means 80% favourable chance

It sure does but what you had said in that initial statement was that 8 points was worth 10 lv ups for a 0.8 job; 16% is the chance of getting those +1 8 times, not 10. We're just calculating different things lol.

As you can see in this unintentional comparison though, despite the relative chance of hitting +1 8 instead of 10 times being ~50% higher, the overall difference in likelihood between 0.8 giving its "expected" 8 points result vs just giving out the same as 1.0 is only ~5%.

Anyway no need to go more in depth on that point, I personally think the speed should be rounded and just stablished at a higher level but those are just my preferences, if you think these are better for your hack I hope they deliver as well as you can- I mostly wanted to comment on them to make sure potential issues didn't blindside you later on.
Title: Re: FFTA with less A-abilities per job
Post by: rrs_kai on September 06, 2020, 12:33:49 pm
---Thief---
These skills are inspired from Zeke_Aileron's mod, where thief steals multiple loots with 1 skill. Tested and they worked fine for me. The names are just placeholders.

Steal hands = steal weapon and shield, or both weapons
Steal body = steal armor and headgear
Steal ideas = steal JP and EXP
Steal accessories = steal 3 accessories (including shoes)
Title: Re: FFTA with less A-abilities per job
Post by: MechaHeart on September 15, 2020, 10:03:43 pm
Really like this idea, as much as multiple abilities are good in most games, when you're just using the same one over and over you might as well clean it up. Looked through the tab in the google doc and was really impressed. Will probably hold off your mod until can use that patch.

In regards to the speed question, can see the advantages of both. Personally think the randomised is better otherwise every character basically turns out the same but it is good to know you don't have a gipped character too.

Whatever happens for this, it's exciting and looking forward to the results!
Title: Re: FFTA with less A-abilities per job
Post by: rrs_kai on October 29, 2020, 03:07:14 pm
Whatever happens for this, it's exciting and looking forward to the results!
[/quote]
Thanks for your interest. I am a bit busy. If you have any suggestions, please leave them here 🙂.

---White Magic---
Cure, Cura, and Curaga - heal user for 50%
Just to encourage healing allies even when you're mage is in danger.
Title: Re: FFTA with less A-abilities per job
Post by: Marethyu on November 16, 2020, 06:21:02 pm
Very good idea.

I would very much like it if this could be implemented in FFTA2. Is it possible?

It would be nice if each job had 5 skills, 1 reaction and 1 support (7 total).