Projects => Completed Mods => FFT Arena => Topic started by: on December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 pm
Poll
Question: Should we lower the map pool into 3 groups with 15-20 maps?
Option 1: Lower the map pool
votes: 9
Option 2: Use as many maps as possible
votes: 4
Title: Map Discussion
Post by: PX_Timefordeath on July 21, 2010, 11:24:21 pm
Here's the list of maps we created on Chat, divided into areas. Maps are here (http://ffhacktics.com/maps.php). Discuss how you feel about this list, and if you want to move some maps.
Large Maps
6) At the Gate of Riovanes Castle 9) Citadel of Igros Castle 15) At the Gate of Limberry Castle (1) 16) Inside of Limberry Castle 22) Magic City Gariland 28) Colliery Underground First Floor 32) Slums in Dorter 47) Zarghidas Trade City 55) Graveyard of Airships 59) Underground Book Storage Third Floor 69) Murond Death City 71) Dolbodar Swamp 74) Sweegy Woods 76) Zeklaus Desert 85) Mandalia Plains 87) Bariaus Valley 99) Main Street of Lesalia 100) Public Cemetary 110) VALKYRIES 112) TIGER
Medium/Large Maps
1) At Main Gate of Igros Castle 3) Hall of St. Murond Temple 17) Underground Cemetary of Limberry Castle 19) At the Gate of Limberry Castle (2) 26) Weapon Storage of Yardow 27) Goland Coal City 34) Cellar of Sand Mouse 37) Ruins Outside Zaland 39) Underground Passage in Goland 40) Slums in Goug 42) Warjilis Trade City 46) Cemetary of Heavenly Knight, Balbanes 49) Fort Zeakden 51) St. Murond Temple 52) Chapel of St. Murond Temple 56) Orbonne Monastery 61) Underground Book Storage Fifth Floor 63) Golgorland Execution Site 66) South Wall of Bethla Garrison 75) Bervenia Volcano 78) Zigolis Swamp 79) Yuguo Woods 80) Araguay Woods 81) Grog Hill 83) Zirekile Falls 95) Church 97) Inside Castle Gate in Lesalia 98) Outside Castle Gate in Lesalia 105) TERMINATE 108) VOYAGE 116) Arena
Medium/Small Maps
2) Back Gate of Lesalia Castle 4) Office of Lesalia Castle 5) Roof of Riovanes Castle 7) Inside of Riovanes Castle 8) Riovanes Castle 12) At the Gate of Lionel Castle 13) Inside of Lionel Castle 18) Office of Limberry Castle 21) Zeltennia Castle 23) Belouve Residence 24) Military Academy's Auditorium 45) Ruins of Zeltennia Castle's Church 48) Slums of Zarghidas 53) Entrance to Death City 64) In Front of Bethla Garrison's Sluice 68) Bethla Garrison 77) Lenalia Plateau 82) Bed Desert 90) Germinas Peak 96) Pub 101) Tutorial (1) 109) BRIDGE 113) HORROR 115) Banished Fort
Crap Maps
10) Inside of Igros Castle 11) Office of Igros Castle 14) Office of Lionel Castle 20) Inside of Zeltennia Castle 25) Yardow Fort City 29) Colliery Underground Second Floor 30) Colliery Underground Third Floor 31) Dorter Trade City 33) Hospital in Slums :( 35) Zaland Fort City 36) Church Outside of Town 38) Goug Machine City 41) Besrodio's House 43) Port of Warjilis 44) Bervenia Free City 50) St. Murond Temple 54) Lost Sacred Precincts 57) Underground Book Storage First Floor 58) Underground Book Storage Second Floor 60) Underground Book Storge Fourth Floor 62) Chapel of Orbonne Monastery 65) Granary of Bethla Garrison 67) Noth Wall of Bethla Garrison 70) Nelveska Temple 72) Fovoham Plains 73) Inside of Windmill Shed 84) Bariaus Hill 86) Doguola Pass 88) Finath River 89) Poeskas Lake 91) Thieves Fort 92) Igros-Belouve Residence 93) Broke Down Shed-Wooden Building 94) Broke Down Shed-Stone Building 102) Tutorial (2) 103) Windmill Shed 104) Belouve Residence 106) DELTA 107) NOGIAS 111) MLAPAN 114) END
Title: Re: Map Discussion
Post by: Kaz on July 22, 2010, 04:26:12 am
Yes - there's definitely some that are significantly better than others
Title: Re: Map Discussion
Post by: philsov on July 27, 2010, 12:55:59 pm
changing starting positions will make 95% of all the bad maps into workable ones.
The only things that should not be in the pool are the truly incomplete ones, and maybe hospital in the slums due to massive bottlenecking and ranged advantages.
Title: Re: Map Discussion
Post by: philsov on October 09, 2010, 02:14:06 pm
ok, here are pictures generated from the current ENTD placement. Changes that I recommend right off the bat:
- Fix placement so that number 1 and number 2 are the closet two units to the opposing side - In instances of paired spawn (like #52) pair up don't pair up 1 with 2 and 3 with 4. 116 did a good job with this. - In instances of a single-line spawn, I recommend the order be something to the tune of 4-1-2-3, with the primary units in the middle and the lower units to the outside.
- Moar clusters! Too many single line spawns.
- Fix initial disparity in formation where one half is clustered while the other side is divided (beltha north, e.g.)
Title: Re: Map Discussion
Post by: Zaen on October 09, 2010, 08:53:49 pm
Hmm... let me clarify my Yes. I think we should limit them down, but more like 15 or 20.
Title: Re: Map Discussion
Post by: ffta707 on October 10, 2010, 03:44:33 pm
Not to 10, but like Zaen said. So yes, lower them.
Title: Re: Map Discussion
Post by: PX_Timefordeath on October 10, 2010, 11:31:20 pm
Changed the poll. Also, the maps that I labeled as crap were maps we found basically unfixable, where any form of map placement would give one team an advantage over the other. Also, we try to avoid splitting up teams.
Title: Re: Map Discussion
Post by: Eternal on October 11, 2010, 11:10:56 am
On a sidenote, would you guys consider adding more Depth 2 Water or Lava tiles to certain maps? I think that would give more use to certain Move abilities.
Title: Re: Map Discussion
Post by: Zaen on October 11, 2010, 04:04:26 pm
I agree with the above. Especially Lava. You know you love lava. Everyone does... except in Minecraft.
Title: Re: Map Discussion
Post by: philsov on October 11, 2010, 04:51:04 pm
I should clarify my vote!
I voted "use as many as possible", because variety is awesome. For the sake of tournaments the ref may opt to have a single map for all teams in all fights, which is fine, but there's no reason to reduce for the sake of reduction. What I do suggest is to trim the fat -- there are numerous (mostly storyline-only) maps that are small, purely flat, and with little to no obstacles. We don't need to use all of them, since the only thing they do is bloat the random pool. They -may- be useful for setting up a variety of different party formations, but that's about it.
Also +points for editing the maps to include different lava/deep water.
Title: Re: Map Discussion
Post by: PX_Timefordeath on October 11, 2010, 08:53:41 pm
At guys who propose we edit maps
Want to do it yourself?
Title: Re: Map Discussion
Post by: philsov on October 12, 2010, 09:20:21 am
of course not. This armchair is far too comfortable.
Title: Re: Map Discussion
Post by: logus on October 13, 2010, 09:30:07 am
I think you ought to keep in mind that this "reduction" is not just for the sake of reduction. The votes of a few were considered in order not only to take out bad maps, but also to: 1:take out redundant ones. I saw no point in keeping two maps that had pretty much the same structure just with different textures. 2: take out maps that would only have a small portion of them used in the case of fair positioning, thus simulating smaller maps with similar structure.
Unfortunately, only this "few" were in chat to vote, more people would probably make a better choice. Good thing PX made a topic for discussion though...
And the water/lava idea is awesome. Good luck finding someone to do it though =^D
edit: a map that could use a lot of water 2 deepness would be bethla's sluice map. It would have to be redone in order to match what it looks like *after* ramza opens the gates. That map is unusable as it is, since there is no good starting position that uses the entire map well.
Title: Re: Map Discussion
Post by: The Damned on October 13, 2010, 09:23:47 pm
I wouldn't mind trying my hand at the map editing provided I learned or was taught how to do it. I've still been a lazy bastard and I haven't had the urge to do anything, especially when...whatever happened to R999 happened.
That said, I think should perhaps see if we can correct map problems before omitting them completely. Of course, we'd have to agree on what those problems were....
Regardless, I'm not going to vote just yet.
Title: Re: Map Discussion
Post by: Melancthon on October 13, 2010, 09:33:27 pm
I assume that "Crap Maps" are not being used. Is that correct? I voted to lower the total amount of maps, but I still need to look over them in more detail. There are some interesting maps out there that end up nearly identical to a lot of other maps purely due to starting positions. Maps 12 and 13 for example. I understand that this is a balance issue (it wouldn't be fair to start someone at a severe height disadvantage for example), but that doesn't make it any less disappointing.
EDIT: Is there a place where all the maps are named and shown? Something like what phil posted but with each map named. I ask because what I would LOVE to see is something like what phil posted but with each image in it's own named spoiler, or something to that effect. I need to study a bit before I try to do something like that myself.
Title: Re: Map Discussion
Post by: philsov on October 18, 2010, 01:51:34 pm
Quoteheight disadvantage
Is only present if there is a longbow floating around. Otherwise it's just "height difference" which is a welcome thing for AoE effects and range issues*. Map 13 is perfectly fine with the more default starting positions -- in fact, -better- with the default positions so long as there are no longbows. It is the same for Grog Hill, END (lol), Dorter II, and Colliery to name a few.
* - Assuming of course there's no "I can melee you but you can't melee me" blocks of 3.0 to 3.5 height different in the way, and in the case of the maps above they're not present.
QuoteIs there a place where all the maps are named and shown?
Don't think so, but it certainly isn't difficult to open up the picture in Paint and add in the text. The names are all listed in a link in the OP.
Title: Re: Map Discussion
Post by: Shade on October 18, 2010, 02:48:00 pm
Maps 31,75,69 suck.
(75 sucks cause ranged units are IN HUGE advantage, while melee strugles to get hit's at all) (31,69 has bad placement(in 31 if other team blocks team that is cornered, well cornered team has to hope that other team doesn't have magic at all)(69 has bait, don't know in this can units reach it easy(maybe with 4 move), bu if they can their are all trying to kil one guy and don't care about others.))
Title: Re: Map Discussion
Post by: philsov on November 17, 2010, 01:32:40 pm
Meanwhile, I think we should also manipulate the character list. As it currently stands Team 1 always wins on CT ties and slow action resolution. Suggest going something like 1-1-2-2-3-3-4-4 instead of like 1-2-3-4-1-2-3-4. I don't know if it's easy to modify the spreadsheet generator to do this function, or if it's better to do it as an afterthought in fftastic -- but it's a worthy change imo.
Title: Re: Map Discussion
Post by: FFMaster on November 21, 2010, 11:48:30 pm
Would you know how to do this at all? All I really know is that the priority goes Guests > Enemy > Ally. So the "Guest Side" gets to move first all the time right now.
Title: Re: Map Discussion
Post by: philsov on November 22, 2010, 12:04:01 am
afaik the character list for these fights is made before the battle even starts, in pretty much exact order that they're input on the memcard. Since p1 is 9 through 12, they get priority over 13 through 16 (p2). So... the easy fix is when someone is labeled as "p1", instead of getting characters written to slots 9, 10, 11, and 12, they should be written to 9, 12, 13, and 16 instead, with p2 getting the opposite (or something... 1-2-2-1-1-2-2-1 is probably the best arrangement though), with followthrough in ffpatcher regarding [s:2rpfq53l]unit ids[/s:2rpfq53l]/placement/team color (all unit IDs are FF, that makes it simpler)
I'd do some fiddling in patcher and with tastic to test this but I have no clue which ENTD corresponds with which maps.
Title: Re: Map Discussion
Post by: PX_Timefordeath on November 22, 2010, 12:13:32 am
Philsov, here's the resources.zip that has the ENTD names
Title: Re: Map Discussion
Post by: FFMaster on November 26, 2010, 12:19:14 am
Ok. I can now change when units move arrangement.
But now we need to decide on which one we use, or if we should mix them up in maps. So far, our best one is(1 = player 1 unit, 2 = player 2 unit) 1-2-2-1-1-2-2-1 1-2-2-1-2-1-1-2 1-2-1-2-1-2-1-2 1-2-1-2-2-1-1-2
Of course, 1/2 can be swapped around. Give your opinions on this, or suggest your own.
Title: Re: Map Discussion
Post by: philsov on November 29, 2010, 09:50:09 am
imo 1-2-2-1-1-2-2-1 is the best scheme.
The 2nd option gives p2 too much of an advantage, while 3 and 4 keep it within p1's court too much.
Title: Re: Map Discussion
Post by: Skip Sandwich on November 29, 2010, 12:36:21 pm
I agree with philsov, 1-2-2-1-1-2-2-1 is the best arrangement
Title: Re: Map Discussion
Post by: FFMaster on December 01, 2010, 11:00:25 pm
Maps are all done with the 1/2/2/1/1/2/2/1 format.