Chrono Compendium hacking projects go down

[Vanya]

You can't expect a company to just let random people on the internet do what-the-fuck-ever with their IP.

Yeah I can. As long as they aren't trying to sell it. The entire concept of intellectual property is partially absurd, especially to the extent that corporations take it. Civilization hasn't come as far as it has by packaging and pricing every idea they could. The entire idea of counting potential losses as actual losses is another absurdity. But I'm getting political now and off the main topic.

I just hope this thing blows over and the hack reaches the light of day.

Meanwhile SE is just a bunch of whinny bitches that can't handle a fan group making a better sequel than them with a fraction of their resources.

[Kuraudo Sutoraifu]

Chrono Compendium should take the Pirate Bay defense and move thier servers to Sweden.

I assume (and hope) that CC finishes thier project underground like Arch said.  I personally haven't seen anything from CC, but I applaud the work they went through.  Square should just embrace this whole thing like Valve did with Counter-Strike.  Half-life wouldn't have been half as popular as it is now if CS didn't exist.  I hope Square wisens up and realizes that it's thier own fans that they are dumping a turd bucket on.

To Asmo and ehrgeiz: I think a written letter campaign would be a positive idea.  Not if people wrote in like Asmo's fake email post, but if they were written in a "why are you hurting your fans" attitude, maybe we could bring a tear to thier collective eye as they shut CC down.  I don't pretend to think that they would change thier mind, but CC could be the martyr that makes them realize that they are creating bad PR from what was originally good PR.

[Kaijyuu]

This is a romhack, no? If this gains popularity, there's no way you could argue that it wouldn't increase piracy of a game they plan to continue to make money on. Not many people dump their cartridges themselves; most download the roms illegally.

Not like I agree with what they're doing. Like I said earlier, I think this falls under the realm of fanart.

[tithin]

As LD mentioned earlier I have extreme scepticism as to the legitimacy of this notice.

Takedown notice: http://www.chronocompendium.com/CEOrder.PDF

First of all there is direct mention in the takedown notice that "We understand that you claim a copyright to CT:CE and intend to distribute it online imminently"

What? Were the makers of this romhack so backwards that they thought they could claim copyright on an existing piece of work using a pre-existing, AND PRECOPYWRITTEN, engine, and assets? That just reeks of extreme and I'm not surprised in the slightest that SE have turned around and slapped this project into the dust.

There's also the disclaimer in the readme file which is suss as well, though I can't be fucked looking that up right now.

There's enough evidence there to suggest that this is authentic, but theres also plenty there to arouse suspicion and I can't fault the admin on romhacking.net for calling it a fake. I did it as well myself last night after a cursory readthrough of the C&D.

The truth of the matter is, I'd love to play it, but I'm not stupid enough to think for even a second that square enix will relent.

@Kuraudo:

Not only would I not hold my breath to see a leak, but I'd be extremely surprised if it did. And I would expect legal action within minutes. Taken from the C&D

If any of these unlawful products are ever distributed, or if you fail to remove all infringing materials immediately, then we will have no choice but to turn this matter over to our litigation counsel and appropriate authorities.

Chrono Compendium should take the Pirate Bay defense and move thier servers to Sweden.

If they have details enough to send a paper copy letter, it doesn't matter where the servers are located, they'll still sue whoever they sent the paper copy to (their main coder, as I recall).

I think a written letter campaign

I stopped reading that paragraph there.

maybe we could bring a tear to thier collective eye

lawl

Square should just embrace this whole thing like Valve did with Counter-Strike.

There's a huge difference between using a FPS engine to create a non-canon deathmatching game, and using an RPG engine to create a direct fan sequel.

@Kaijuii

I think this falls under the realm of fanart.

It doesn't matter what you think it falls under, its a copyrighted piece of work and their lawyers intend to squish it. As is their legal right.

@Vanya

Yeah I can. As long as they aren't trying to sell it. The entire concept of intellectual property is partially absurd, especially to the extent that corporations take it.

There speaks one without any intellectual property.

I just hope this thing blows over and the hack reaches the light of day.

Seconded.

Meanwhile SE is just a bunch of whinny bitches that can't handle a fan group making a better sequel than them with a fraction of their resources.

You can't state that for a truth, and that just smacks of bitterness on your part.

[Asmo X]

Yeah I can. As long as they aren't trying to sell it. The entire concept of intellectual property is partially absurd, especially to the extent that corporations take it.

There speaks one without any intellectual property.

This.

[ArkDelgato]

Hell, I'd shell up some money to buy this if square released it!
It's obviously what the fans want.

[Archael]

You can't expect a company to just let random people on the internet do what-the-fuck-ever with their IP.

Yeah I can. As long as they aren't trying to sell it. The entire concept of intellectual property is partially absurd, especially to the extent that corporations take it. Civilization hasn't come as far as it has by packaging and pricing every idea they could. The entire idea of counting potential losses as actual losses is another absurdity.

Meanwhile SE is just a bunch of whinny bitches that can't handle a fan group making a better sequel than them with a fraction of their resources.

Reality <----------------------------> You

The whole thing makes very little sense. It seems like a waste of their time.

For a company like SE, who hires people to write PR and CD letters, who have their own legal department, it is the closest thing to very little effort you can think of. If they bothered to have someone write up this letter it means it is not a waste of time in their eyes. Or else they wouldn't have written it.

I'd release it anyway. How are they going to prove that CC cost them anything?

They don't need to. It's their INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY. It is THEIR RIGHT to send a C&D letter to people basing work off their INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY. That's how the law works, man. You'd have this right too as long as other people are messing with IP you have created and belong to you.

And what would they get for their trouble? It's not like a bunch of hackers have a worthwhile amount of money laying about. At best this is little more than a scare tactic.

They get to stop others from messing with their IP, which they created, which belongs to them... Square made Chrono Trigger. It's theirs, remember? I don't think they are after money from hackers.
If you think this is a scare tactic, I would urge you to make the experiment of releasing something Square has C&D you on. See what happens
 


@ Tithin: I agree.



This part of the letter is EXTREMELY FISHY. Did CC really put that in their Readme? Who the hell would do that? It's like they are expecting and welcoming SE to stop them. Also where did they claim copyright on CE? If they did, that's pretty fucking stupid. It's like FFH claiming copyright on everything FFT based.

[LastingDawn]

I've spoken with FaustWolf on this matter, they did not claim a copyright, nor did they actually distribute the ROM, it was kept relatively under wraps, much less transparent then say 1.3, Mercenaries, or Call of Power. They had a very small team of beta testers.

[FaustWolf]

Just so I can reiterate this now that Nightcrawler over at Romhacking.net has his head buried in the sand, this C&D is very real. One of our admins -- the first to call, I think he might have gotten through before ZeaLitY and Agent12 -- actually got through to legal and was able to confirm that SE really did send this out. Agent12 explained this in one of his replies there. As for the readme included with the demo (released back in 2006), you can read the whole paragraph (including what SE left out) in Agent12's letter to the community here:
http://www.chronocompendium.com/Forums/ ... #msg160508

We claimed no more copyright on Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes than any project here claims copyright on Final Fantasy Tactics.

I'd be happy to answer any questions you guys have so as to diffuse any misconceptions about this situation floating around.

[Kuraudo Sutoraifu]

Not only would I not hold my breath to see a leak, but I'd be extremely surprised if it did. And I would expect legal action within minutes.

On who?  A website that no longer propigates the game, no longer gives it resources, no longer advertises it, and clearly complies with Square?  I said underground, like via email or a private domian.  Distribution amongst the game's creators could be hushed enough that Square wouldn't notice.

If they have details enough to send a paper copy letter, it doesn't matter where the servers are located, they'll still sue whoever they sent the paper copy to (their main coder, as I recall).

/imakejoke

I stopped reading that paragraph there.

Apparently you didn't.

maybe we could bring a tear to thier collective eye

lawl

It was for lulz.  The picture I had in my mind was the metal skeleton of a terminator (being Square) crying as it mows down humans (fans).

There's a huge difference between using a FPS engine to create a non-canon deathmatching game, and using an RPG engine to create a direct fan sequel.

There definitely is, but that's not the principle I'm arguing.  Valve took a fan made alteration of thier game and sold it.  This essential meant that they are selling a game that cost them no money (aside from the money spent to make Half-Life).  This gave a boost to the popularity of Half-life and TFC which most likely boosted those profits as well.

I just think Square should do the same thing.  I think Square could sell it as either canon or non-canon and make a profit.  I would feel honored if Square ever picked up a game alteration of mine and sold it.  CC wasn't in it for the profit anyway, so I think they'd feel the same way as well.

[FaustWolf]

The C&D order expressly stated that if any leak is ever brought to their attention, then the parties named in the C&D face litigation.

[tithin]

@Faust

It's not that I disbelieve you, in fact after reading through this I'm now more and more sure of it being genuine (only square enix could fuck something like this up by claiming a bunch of shit that didn't happen). I recall something you or someone else wrote in the romhacking.net thread that you guys got through to SE Legal and confirmed it's genuine. But that's it? There was hints that there was more to the conversation than that, but no one has stated what was said specifically. Any chance you could enlighten us of this?

@Kuraudo

On who? A website that no longer propigates the game, no longer gives it resources, no longer advertises it, and clearly complies with Square? I said underground, like via email or a private domian. Distribution amongst the game's creators could be hushed enough that Square wouldn't notice.

As I stated further up, and Faustwolf specifically above me states, ANY leak brings litigation. They have enough real life information to bring the main coder to court so I don't think you'll see anything.

I would feel honored if Square ever picked up a game alteration of mine and sold it. CC wasn't in it for the profit anyway, so I think they'd feel the same way as well.

Again, I should reiterate this for everyone

It doesn't matter how you feel about this project, or how you would feel about it being given a Square Enix release. This is not your project, and by proxy it is not your situation. You are not Square Enix. They have clearly stated now that they don't want this project to see release. That is their legal right and all of your hypotheticals change naught.

[Kaijyuu]

@Kaijuii

I think this falls under the realm of fanart.

It doesn't matter what you think it falls under, its a copyrighted piece of work and their lawyers intend to squish it. As is their legal right.

I never said otherwise. I just said I disagreed with the course of action they're taking, not that they couldn't or even shouldn't do it. They can do whatever the crap they want with their copyrighted work.

[mav]

Right, and it's a damn shame, but you're right Kaijyuu it's their copyrighted work, so they can do what they want with it. I think a lot of the problems come from a general misunderstanding regarding the legality of ROM hacks. I'm not necessarily saying I agree or disagree with SE's claims, but I personally thought hacks fell under the realm of derivative works or fan fiction, but whatever. And as far as the readme goes, the entire portion wasn't mentioned:

ROM altering and modification is illegal, and the demo has been made without the consent of Square Enix. However, Kajar Laboratories wishes that Square Enix view it as a piece of fanfiction or other fan-related work, falling in the general body of fan community proceedings that are too numerous to prosecute and summarily have a positive effect on the popularity of its games. Should Square Enix perceive the project as a threat to its sales or intellectual property, Kajar Laboratories will immediately cease operation on the project and comply with Square Enix's orders.

[Archael]

wow they conveniently left out that part, the part that makes them look like corporate bullies

what assholes -_K

[Vanya]

Yeah I can. As long as they aren't trying to sell it. The entire concept of intellectual property is partially absurd, especially to the extent that corporations take it.

There speaks one without any intellectual property.

This.

Technically if I copyright the stuff I'm working on now for PC I would, but I'm not going to. I never will. If I ever make something that ppl think is good enough to use for something else then more power to them. I want to make games to entertain, nothing more nothing less. Maybe I sound a little holier than thou, but that's what I think is right.

Meanwhile SE is just a bunch of whinny bitches that can't handle a fan group making a better sequel than them with a fraction of their resources.

You can't state that for a truth, and that just smacks of bitterness on your part.

I didn't mean it as a truth. That's just my opinion. Obviously I don't work at SE. Also, I'm not so much bitter as disappointed.

And what would they get for their trouble? It's not like a bunch of hackers have a worthwhile amount of money laying about. At best this is little more than a scare tactic.

They get to stop others from messing with their IP, which they created, which belongs to them... Square made Chrono Trigger. It's theirs, remember? I don't think they are after money from hackers.
If you think this is a scare tactic, I would urge you to make the experiment of releasing something Square has C&D you on. See what happens
 

I might just do that. It would be fun to stick a thorn in their side.

[Kuraudo Sutoraifu]

The C&D order expressly stated that if any leak is ever brought to their attention, then the parties named in the C&D face litigation.

Suck and/or Supersuck.  My thought still remain that those who worked on it (at least the major contributors, or the ones who will be litigated upon) should finish and distribute amongst yourselves.  Don't leak it onto the internet.  Keep it amongst yourselves.  If only those that will be legally responsible have it, then they should have a shared self-interest in not leaking it. And then 20 years down the line when noone cares, release it.

It doesn't matter how you feel about this project, or how you would feel about it being given a Square Enix release. This is not your project, and by proxy it is not your situation. You are not Square Enix. They have clearly stated now that they don't want this project to see release. That is their legal right and all of your hypotheticals change naught.

Once again, not the principle I am arguing.  The "feel" is merely what I think CC opinion should be if hypothetically Square did want it.  My argument is that Square should at least honestly evaluate CC effort to see if they'd like it.  If they are shutting down CC's production for money-grubbing issues, logically, they should evaluate that production for the same reason: money.  I know this is contingent upon Square using logic, but maybe they already have looked at it and deemed it unworthy of thier time.  If so, rock on.  If not, suck it, Square.

[Asmo X]

Yeah I can. As long as they aren't trying to sell it. The entire concept of intellectual property is partially absurd, especially to the extent that corporations take it.

There speaks one without any intellectual property.

This.

Technically if I copyright the stuff I'm working on now for PC I would, but I'm not going to. I never will. If I ever make something that ppl think is good enough to use for something else then more power to them. I want to make games to entertain, nothing more nothing less. Maybe I sound a little holier than thou, but that's what I think is right.

Christ you are so fucking naive. Square have actual costs. Employees to take care of, overhead costs and so on. They cease to function in your bullshit poppies-and-sunshine universe where everyone gives their shit away. I'm making a game. Someone uses my assets to make a similar game for free. Do I have a reasonable expectation that perhaps there would be some people who would forgo spending money on my game to get a similar game for free? I think I do. Can I be absolutely sure that this is the case? Of course not. But you don't run a company by taking pointless chances, 'letting ones slide' and trusting the generous nature of consumers. You need to grow up a bit.

[Archael]

Technically if I copyright the stuff I'm working on now for PC I would, but I'm not going to. I never will. If I ever make something that ppl think is good enough to use for something else then more power to them. I want to make games to entertain, nothing more nothing less.

That is exactly the reason why you aren't seeing the situation clearly.

Square doesn't just make games as a hobby on their spare time like you do. Their primary reason for making games is not just entertainment.

Square's employees make money off this. It is their profession, it is their job.

Square is a company, and companies want to make money. This one just so happens to make money via entertainment through video games, but don't make the mistake to think that they see their job like a hobby that everyone is free to share ware open-source across the interwebs.

[Goomba]

You guys need to drop everything and move to Cuba. Then you can release the completed project and they won't be able to come into the country and arrest you.