Newbie has specific patch goals in mind, can they be done?

[Timbo]

Hi, I'm totally new.  I just discovered that this webpage exists last night.  Final Fantasy Tactics is the favorite game of myself and just about every gamer I know.  Discovering Final Fantasy Tactics: Complete was both very exciting and just a tad disapointing for me.

Everything about retranslating, increasing the difficulty, and reintroducing some of the missing elements is amazing.  However, the lack of the Dark Knight class, the inability to allow more than 16 party members, and the inability to add to the Job Wheel leaves me slightly disapointed.

So, from browsing the forums I know that you can replace any of your existing Job Wheel classes with FFT patcher.  

1. Can the bard and the dancer be combined into one gender neutral class that uses the bard sprites for males and the dancer sprites for females?  
2. Would this open up a free slot for the Dark Knight?  
3. Could Boco be given the abilities of the other Chocobos?  Or could he be made into a monster class like Byblos where he is allowed to switch Jobs between the other Chocobo class?
4. Can Byblos have a second Job, like Apanda for the bios spells?
5. Can I recreate the new items from the psp version of the game?
6. Would I be able to add any of all of these patches to Final Fantasy Tactics: Complete?
7. Finally, where is the best place to start?

[philsov]

WELCOME TO FFH, WHERE ALL YOUR DREAMS COME TRUE.

Most of what you request isn't possible at this time, sadly, as the PSX fft has a set number of items/classes/etc that are considered "hard-coded" for now.

Bard and Dancer are hard-coded to their gender-byte.  You can alter bard/dancer to become a single class with skills from both skillsets, which frees up Dark Knight to a (male or female only) class.

Boco is just a chocobo, and would require a new job to be otherwise.  Certainly not possible to freely change his class.  He can be made into a unique Worker/Byblos class with a skillset and unique innates/reactions/etc, but you must sacrifice another class first, like combining Archaic and Ultima Demons to make room for him, or, ajora forbid, nixing a zodiac boss.  

Byblos is stuck in his single job, but his skillset can be expanded to take in the Apanda Bios spells no problem.

In order to "make" new items you need to remove/consolidate old ones.  We're still working with a finite space.

Yes, what IS possible to merge these changes with already patched games (FFT:C) -- it's possible because of what we already know plus a program called FFTPatcher, available on the front page downloads -- it comes bundled with a sprite program too.    

Honestly if these things were readily possible they would've been implemented already :p

Also +points for being a newbie and not asking how to give ramza swordskills.

[Timbo]

Thanks for the quick reply philsov.  It kind of stinks about Dancer/Bard, but not too badly.  I'm wanting to get rid of the mime and/or the Calculator and replace them with classes that get individual skills anyway.  I am a pretty big fan of the Calculator's ability to target 60% of the battlefield with a no cost/no charge nuke/heal, but I'd rather have a Sorceror with all of those unattainable spells like Quake and Dark Holy.  It's been years since I played me some tactics.  If you don't mind I have some followup questions.

1. Can you add or remove innate abilities to a class, like poach or move-find item?
2. Is it possible to free up some slots for new unique classes by eliminating and almagating classes like Princess & Cleric.  (ie.  By eliminating princess and making both Ovelia and Alma into Clerics.)
3. Correct me if I'm wrong but aren't some of the NPC class slots taken up by characters who never enter a battle.  Couldn't some of those be amalgamated into one class shared between multiple characters, in order to create new classes?
4. Is there any difference between Sanguine Sword/Infernal Strike and Shadowblade and Duskblade as far as damage formula and animation?

[formerdeathcorps]

1. Yes.  FFTPatcher does this easily.  However, you should be aware that monk cannot learn martial arts if you remove it as innate (so you'll have to do a workaround), ninja cannot learn two swords if you remove it as innate (and you can't do a workaround because ninja is hard-coded), mediator cannot learn monster talk if you remove it as innate (so you'll have to do a workaround), and chemist cannot learn throw item if you remove it as innate (and it is hard-coded so you can't do a workaround).
2. Yes.  I did that in patch.
3. Yes,. but you'll have to manually set their sprites to the correct sprite unless you want Simon, Funeral, and Draclau to all look the same in the scenes they appear.  This can also be done in FFTPatcher, but is just more tedious.
4. I don't have a PSP so I wouldn't know, but I'd assume not.

Also, you cannot change the mime class.  It is even more hard-coded than the samurai, chemist, and ninja classes.  In the case of mime, it cannot use equips or learn skills (unless you give them a skillset of 0 JP moves at 100% learn chance).  Even if you give mime innate equipment change and the ability to use weapons (so they can equip things in battle), the moment the battle ends, the mime will lose all equipment.

[Timbo]

2. Is it possible to free up some slots for new unique classes by eliminating and almagating classes like Princess & Cleric.  (ie.  By eliminating princess and making both Ovelia and Alma into Clerics.)
3. Correct me if I'm wrong but aren't some of the NPC class slots taken up by characters who never enter a battle.  Couldn't some of those be amalgamated into one class shared between multiple characters, in order to create new classes?

Is there a tutorial on doing this stuff somewhere?  Or a list of easily combinable classes?

[formerdeathcorps]

OK, I have a list of classes you shouldn't combine as in you cannot add more skills into the moveset.

1. Archer
2. Chemist
3. Samurai
4. Ninja
5. Mime
6. Calculator
7. Geomancer
8. Lancer

The following unit classes cannot have any moveset changes other than deletions without creating problems.

1. Chemist
2. Ninja
3. Samurai
4. Mime
5. Lancer

The following unit classes are gendered and will not accept job requirements (so you can't create a male-only class by having a requirement of level 8 bard).

1. Bard
2. Dancer

Monk will not learn martial arts unless set as innate.  Chemist will not learn throw item unless set as innate.  Mediator will not learn monster talk unless set as innate.  Ninja will not learn two swords unless set as innate.

Special unit classes should not have their innate skillset be that of a generic job class.  The player can only have access to the following skillsets except in the original player controlled job classes each came in:
1. Charge (08)
2. Item (06, I believe)
3. Elemental (11)
4. Throw (13 or 14)
5. Jump (12)
6. Draw Out (13 or 14)
7. Math Skill (15)
8. Mimic (18)

Other than that, you're free to edit as you wish.

[Timbo]

The player can only have access to the following skillsets except in the original player controlled job classes each came in:
1. Charge (08)
2. Item (06, I believe)
3. Elemental (11)
4. Throw (13 or 14)
5. Jump (12)
6. Draw Out (13 or 14)
7. Math Skill (15)
8. Mimic (18)

Formerdeathcorps, you have to be the most helpful person ever.  Thank you so much.  That list is pretty awesome, except I don't know what this last part means.  Are these the skillsets I cannot modify?  I'm confused.

Also, can I add skills to Special Jobs like Meliadoul's Mighty Sword skillset and Ramza's various Guts skillsets?  These are probably the only special unit I want to modify.  Don't worry about me adding Swordskills to Ramza.  I'm probably eliminating the Orator and invitation may end up going to the Squire and therefore Ramza, I'm not sure yet though.

[philsov]

OK, I have a list of classes you shouldn't combine as in you cannot add more skills into the moveset.
...
6. Calculator

Note that this only works with 15 Math Skill when its flagged as a Math skill.  It's not like you can add "2" into the skillset in the first place anyways.  However, if it's flagged as <default> it can take 16 abilities just like any other skillset.

[Timbo]

Thanks for looking into that for me philsov.  So, can I assume that Archer works the same way?  If I change Charge to default, will its original skills (Charge +1, Charge +2, etc) still work?  Is it possible to recreate those skills so they work in a default formula?

[philsov]

no.  Charge skills only work within a <Charge> skillset, and <Charge> skillsets prohibit any non-charge skills from working.  Math Skill is similar.  

The best way to "recreate" the charge skillset is to make new skills with the 2D (swordskill) formula.  Give it the proper K booster and CTR and you're set.  However, this is PA * WP -- which bones 50% of weapon types if you go that route.  Otherwise there's no way that I'm aware of.

[Timbo]

I understood about 1/4 of what you actually said there.  Would it be too much for you to break it down into noobspeak?

[philsov]

lol.

If a skillset is flagged as <charge>, then only charge abilities work inside of it.  If a skillset is flagged as <default>, or anything else for that matter, the Charge abilities will not work.

If you wanted to somehow expand the Archer skillset to include both Charge abilities and other, normal abilities, the closest thing you can do is create skills using formula 2D, which is the same as the swordskill formula.  It's PA * (WP + X).  You can give these abilities charge times.  

So you can almost recreate charge skills with this formula.  However, Charge works with all weapon types.   PA * (WP + X) won't work as well with, say, sticks as they are by default MA * WP.  So giving them an ability that goes PA * WP means different than attack damage in the first place.  Even longbows are [(PA + Sp) / 2] * WP, so by giving out "Swordskill Charges" there is that hiccup.  Only about 50% of the weapon types are in fact PA * WP.  

Otherwise you're stuck with either Charge or otherwise normal abilities.  There's no way to have both in a single skillset.

[formerdeathcorps]

OK, sorry about this.  I should have written a better explanation above.

1. If you have any attack belonging to any of the 8 jobs (archer, mime, calculator, lancer, ninja, samurai, geomancer, chemist) listed above in any skillset, it must be the original skillset it came in (so you can't move demon fire from 11 Elemental to 15 Math Skill, for example).  As long as you have such fixed attack in a skillset, all attacks in that skillset must also be originals (so you can't have asura and demon fire both in 11 Elemental).  This is what I meant when I said those 8 skillsets could not have more skills than what they originally contained; you couldn't just add to the Math Skill or Charge skillset unless you deleted everything that previously existed in it; all you can do is delete (so you could delete asura, for example, from draw out without issue).
2. Except for archer and calculator, all the above mentioned classes will not accept new attacks, even if you replace the entire skillset.
3. To change archer or calculator, go to the action menu tab of FFTPatcher.  Change the <Charge> tab to <Default> on 08 Charge and change the <Arithmetic> tab to <Default> on 15 Math Skill.  As long as you totally purge archer and calculator of their old skills, you should be able to create new skills.
4. What philsov then wrote was how to simulate archer skills.  The idea is to use formula 2D (you find this under the abilities tab).  You click on the ability you want to overwrite, change the formula of that ability to 2D, and then mimic the charged attacks of an archer by setting the variable Y equal to whatever charge you want to recreate, by giving the "charge" skill a new charge time, and by checking the weapon range flag.
5. The only problem with this is that you don't want to flag follow target (since the original archer attacks didn't lock-on), but without it, the AI will not properly use your charge skills half the time because they'll use the charge skill and then move (thus canceling the attack because it didn't lock on).  However, flagging lock-on creates an attack that seems odd (since you're effectively saying you can have a sword attack at 3 range if you used charge against an enemy and then moved away).  The original makers of FFT "solved" this problem only by forcing archers to cancel moving if they used a charge attack.

[Timbo]

I don't really care if Charge works Rods or not, but I need to find the formula for the various weapon types.  I can't seem to find it in FFTPatcher either.  Where is this formula btw?

Also, formerdc, I'm a little confused by point 5.  Are you saying that the AI enemies will end up canceling their own charge attacks by moving?  Can we also self-inflict a temporary "Don't Move" status condition for the duration of the pseudo-charge?

[formerdeathcorps]

Go to the abilities tab.  Search for formula 2D under formula (the biggest selection menu under the tab).

The problem is that AI enemies are programmed to maximize CT use and damage.  Thus, if there's a target in range whom they can kill with a modified charge +2, they'll try to use their charge attack and move (since this maximizes CT) because the AI automatically assumes all normal ranged attacks are lock-on, instant, or will target the entire map (notice how both archer and lancer have special command sets).  The only way the AI will properly use charge is if they move first and then charge (which means the target must start out of range).

The problem with self-status infliction is that there's only one formula that inflicts status effects on the user, and that's the one for please eat (which doesn't deal damage).

[Timbo]

formerdc, you have been seriously helpful.  

Here is another idea.  What if we can make these pseudo-charge attacks follow the target, can we make these lock-on attacks interruptible by successful attack or possibly damage?

Will the AI be able to use them correctly?

Oh, and I know how to find the ability formulas, its the weapon formulas I can't find.

[formerdeathcorps]

Here is another idea.  What if we can make these pseudo-charge attacks follow the target, can we make these lock-on attacks interruptible by successful attack or possibly damage?

You'll need ASM to either make charge have the dispel by damage trigger of transparent or have every unit who charges up spells to automatically gain the transparent status (with 100% accuracy removed, AI targeting on, and cancel spell/skill if transparent is removed), but are you sure you want this to be true of all charging units (including mages)?

Oh, and I know how to find the ability formulas, its the weapon formulas I can't find.

You'll need a hex editor to find that.  Either use the debugger of your emulator to find the offsets in BATTLE.BIN or figure it out from the weapon formula edits made by Zodiac and Razele on where the offsets for weapon formulas are.

[Timbo]

No, I don't want all spells to be interrupted by damage, mages have a hard enough time as it is.  It's just that I haven't played tactics since 2003 and I cannot for the life of me remember some of the games nuances.  I could have sworn some of the attacks in the game were interruptible.  If I make the attacks follow the target, and take longer would they still work correctly.  Also, that would probably make the archer a high priority target for the enemy AI right?

Is there a list of weapon type formula's floating around out there?

[formerdeathcorps]

No, I don't want all spells to be interrupted by damage, mages have a hard enough time as it is.  It's just that I haven't played tactics since 2003 and I cannot for the life of me remember some of the games nuances.  I could have sworn some of the attacks in the game were interruptible.  If I make the attacks follow the target, and take longer would they still work correctly.  Also, that would probably make the archer a high priority target for the enemy AI right?

Is there a list of weapon type formula's floating around out there?

Charging units have higher priority because they take 1.5x damage and can't evade attacks.

Look here http://www.gamefaqs.com/console/psx/file/197339/3876 for information on weapon formulas.  Specifically, see Section 2.1.

[Timbo]

Oh, I forgot about something.  What happens if you have follow target and you are using a sword instead of a bow, will it still hit, or will the target be out of range?