Spam / General Forum Merge

[Archael]

its pretty easy to see the difference between general and spam..

Spam:
http://www.ffhacktics.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2953

General:
http://www.ffhacktics.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2906

Although slightly similar theres still a major difference

You can't cherry pick particular examples

look at the entire forums dude, not just  1 thread

I can cherry pick threads that say exactly the opposite of what you're claiming, just as easily!!

here look, I'll do it now:


"Jokez thread" in General:
http://www.ffhacktics.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2912

"Serious thread" in Spam
http://www.ffhacktics.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2874

cherry picking doesn't prove much

[Vanya]

After merger what is to stop ppl's serious topics from getting spammed to death?
The way I see it there will still have to be rules and a moderator weather the sections are merged or not.
I think we should at least try to make a rules topic in General and give it a moderator before merging.
Right now we're doing nothing at all and that won't resolve anything.

[Archael]

After merger what is to stop ppl's serious topics from getting spammed to death?

Nothing, as it should be in an off topic forum... a "serious topic" is only "serious" because you think it is not "Spam jokez material". That is all subject to interpretation, as the two forums currently show.

The way I see it there will still have to be rules and a moderator weather the sections are merged or not.
I think we should at least try to make a rules topic in General and give it a moderator before merging.
Right now we're doing nothing at all and that won't resolve anything.

We're not doing anything because people don't like change and would rather do nothing and leave things as they are. It is more comfortable that way

[Vanya]

Nothing, as it should be in an off topic forum... a "serious topic" is only "serious" because you think it is not "Spam jokez material". That is all subject to interpretation, as the two forums currently show.

It shouldn't be that way at all.
And a serious topic is serious because the author wants a serious discussion. Otherwise, they would post in spam.
The only reason the general section shows spam is because it doesn't have a set of rules and no moderator.
I don't see any good reason to merge them other than to be lazy.

We're not doing anything because people don't like change and would rather do nothing and leave things as they are. It is more comfortable that way

No. We aren't doing anything yet because the subject is still in discussion.
Leaving it as is would be ridiculous and eventually lead to merger anyway.
(Probably what you and others would settle for in lieu of merger.)
Merging would deprive the site of a place for serious discussion of off-topics. Simply giving the general section rules and a mod would prevent the spam hammering of said off-topics. At that point there would be no reason to merge them and no one would be deprived of anything.

[Archael]

It shouldn't be that way at all.
And a serious topic is serious because the author wants a serious discussion. Otherwise, they would post in spam.
The only reason the general section shows spam is because it doesn't have a set of rules and no moderator.

I don't see any good reason to merge them other than to be lazy.
No. We aren't doing anything yet because the subject is still in discussion.
Leaving it as is would be ridiculous and eventually lead to merger anyway.
(Probably what you and others would settle for in lieu of merger.)
Merging would deprive the site of a place for serious discussion of off-topics. Simply giving the general section rules and a mod would prevent the spam hammering of said off-topics. At that point there would be no reason to merge them and no one would be deprived of anything.

copy pasta from my 1st reply to you in this thread

Spam topics and general topics have little to no distinction.

Both have non-FFT-Related things people want to share with FFH.

Both have random nonsense topics for fun.

Both have semi-serious topics as well.

Both just serve as a "Talk about stuff not-related to FFT here" forum. They are both off-topic forums.


If you want me to bring up examples that prove what I'm saying is true, I will.


Claiming that one is different from the other because you want to pass judgment on which topics are "serious" and which ones are "just random jokes" is a very bad reason to disagree with this.

The proposed merger is not with the purpose of eliminating a "serious" section (General, which is more like an Off-Topic FFT section to begin with) or getting rid of a random section (Spam, which is also just an Off-Topic FFT section), it's to save space because both forums share the exact same function right now.

The only reason people post the more "serious" topics in the General forum instead of Spam forum is because they don't want their more serious ideas being categorized as "Spam".

I assure you that if Spam was re-named to "Off-Topic" you'd see people posting "serious" posts there instead of in General. Hell, they already do.

The only reason the general section shows spam is because it doesn't have a set of rules and no moderator.

Then what's the reason the spam section shows general topics?

[Vanya]

If you want me to bring up examples that prove what I'm saying is true, I will.

You can't cherry pick particular examples
look at the entire forums dude, not just  1 thread
I can cherry pick threads that say exactly the opposite of what you're claiming, just as easily!!

Don't bother.

Spam topics and general topics have little to no distinction.
Both have non-FFT-Related things people want to share with FFH.
Both have random nonsense topics for fun.
Both have semi-serious topics as well.
Both just serve as a "Talk about stuff not-related to FFT here" forum. They are both off-topic forums.

There is a distinction between the individual topics. Just because both kinds have popped up in both sub-forums doesn't mean there shouldn't be a clearer distinction placed on both forums. Most forums that have a spam section also have a place for non-spam off-topics. And it works well.

Claiming that one is different from the other because you want to pass judgment on which topics are "serious" and which ones are "just random jokes" is a very bad reason to disagree with this.

I haven't passed judgment on anyone's topics, but there are clearly topics in General that are meant to be serious in far greater numbers than in Spam. We don't see huge numbers of serious posts in Spam because everyone understands what Spam is for.

The proposed merger is not with the purpose of eliminating a "serious" section (General, which is more like an Off-Topic FFT section to begin with) or getting rid of a random section (Spam, which is also just an Off-Topic FFT section), it's to save space because both forums share the exact same function right now.

I fail to see how this would save any space. Moving topics into one sub-forum would net you what? One line less on the front page? What is that, like a few Kb? We'd still have the same number of post unless some are deleted.

The only reason people post the more "serious" topics in the General forum instead of Spam forum is because they don't want their more serious ideas being categorized as "Spam".

Then why deprive those ppl of that distinction?

I assure you that if Spam was re-named to "Off-Topic" you'd see people posting "serious" posts there instead of in General. Hell, they already do.

It's like saying a bobcat and a house cat are the same thing because they're both feline. Changing the house cat into an ocelot wouldn't prove your point, because you would have changed the nature of the beast anyway. (OK. Not the best analogy, but whatever.)

Since the purpose of the forum isn't implicitly stated changing the title would be tantamount to changing it's purpose. Off-Topic =/= Spam.

Then what's the reason the spam section shows general topics?

Because the author thought it was spam as opposed to serious, or didn't acknowledge a distinction between off-topic and spam. Also, there are no rules in spam as it should be.

[Archael]

I haven't passed judgment on anyone's topics, but there are clearly topics in General that are meant to be serious in far greater numbers than in Spam. We don't see huge numbers of serious posts in Spam because everyone understands what Spam is for.

I'm not saying that we shouldn't have serious off topic topics differentiated from joke off topic topics, I'm saying that they are both off topic topics and belong in the same off topic forum

I fail to see how this would save any space. Moving topics into one sub-forum would net you what? One line less on the front page?

Yup. 1 less forum on the front page. 1 Off Topic forum instead of the 2 we have now which are a waste of space.

Then why deprive those ppl of that distinction?

Because FFH has a growing number of forums, just in case you aren't aware, new projects get their own forum sections, and I assure you more forum sections will be added.

It is in FFH's best interest to keep the number off extra not-so-necessary forums (like the two off topics we are running now) to a minimum. That is why merging our 2 off topic forums is a good idea.

And yes saving space and reducing the number of redundant forums is a good idea.

Since the purpose of the forum isn't implicitly stated changing the title would be tantamount to changing it's purpose. Off-Topic =/= Spam.

Spam = Off Topic Topics
General = Off Topic Topics
Off Topic = Off Topic
We don't need 2 forums for the same function when 1 will suffice

Because the author thought it was spam as opposed to serious, or didn't acknowledge a distinction between off-topic and spam. Also, there are no rules in spam as it should be.

There would be no rules in the merged forum, as an off topic forum should be.

[Xifanie]

stop saying spam is off-topic; it's bi, for fuck's sake.

[Smitson]

its pretty easy to see the difference between general and spam..

Spam:
http://www.ffhacktics.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2953

General:
http://www.ffhacktics.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2906

Although slightly similar theres still a major difference

You can't cherry pick particular examples

look at the entire forums dude, not just  1 thread

I can cherry pick threads that say exactly the opposite of what you're claiming, just as easily!!

here look, I'll do it now:


"Jokez thread" in General:
http://www.ffhacktics.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2912

"Serious thread" in Spam
http://www.ffhacktics.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2874

cherry picking doesn't prove much

Yes but how many of those jokes threads do you see in general? Not very many. The only one I see right now is TRC saying he wants to be mod(unless he was serious idk I never looked in that topic recently). In spam I don't see one serious thread.

 Once again, thats not the norm. What do a few misplaced topics prove? General is more of - Doesnt fit into any other category but still serious. Spam is just whatever stupid random shit pops in your mind. All general needs is a mod, so all the real spam shit stays there. Then I belive everything will be cleaned up.

[Archael]

I can find more joke threads in general if you want me to

and even more "serious" topics in spam

because the line between what constitutes a "spam topic" and a "general topic" is extremely blurry (plz guys dont make me repeat this again)

that line is so blurry and completely dependent on each person's opinion, and that is why you will always see the off-topic similarity between the two forums as long as they are separate

[DarthPaul]

that line is so blurry and completely dependent on each person's opinion, and that is why you will always see the off-topic similarity between the two forums as long as they are separate

I can respect you stance on this, because you are right in that regard. The only problem with your stance is you are not arguing the fact that keeps being brought up. Without proving this fact wrong a merger will never happen.

The fact is, as just stated General is for a serious thread that does not fit anywhere else, and spam is just the random bullshit.

^Find something wrong with that please. Prove it wrong and I will agree with you, no I think we will all agree if that fact can be proven false.

[Archael]

The fact is, as just stated General is for a serious thread that does not fit anywhere else, and spam is just the random bullshit.

^Find something wrong with that please. Prove it wrong and I will agree with you, no I think we will all agree if that fact can be proven false.

I already did, all over this thread... But I'll repeat it again I guess.

The "intended" purpose of General and Spam is just an ideal purpose if people used them as they were "intended" to be used. That statement is wrong because people are NOT using these 2 forums as they were "intended" to be used, obviously. As I said before, "Ideal Purpose" =/= "Actual Function" of these two forums.

Governments are supposed to support and defend the people and never harm them, but in reality it doesn't always work this way. So people ask for changes and re-forms.

What is the reality of the situation in this example? The intended flawless purpose of government? Or the actual reality of what's going on?


And supposing the statement WAS true (and it's not), a merger is STILL a good idea, because it simply drops the count of OFF TOPIC forums from 2 to 1, when 1 off-topic forum is more than enough on a site that should be concentrating it's efforts on hacking in the first place.

[Kokojo]

Then we should just nuke to social Forums, Voldemort. I din't see you post in most hacks sections lately, besides yours.

[Xifanie]

FFH won't adapt... members will!

I looked into the subforums idea and it seems rather troublesome. I would take me about one hour to fully implement it.

[Archael]

Then we should just nuke to social Forums, Voldemort.

This forum is for Site Suggestions / Bugs , and I'm not going to suggest that Zodiac remove all social forums on his own site, because that's not what I'm proposing. But if you want to take it that far, you are welcome to make your own topic about killing of all social discussion.

I din't see you post in most hacks sections lately, besides yours.

and?

I looked into the subforums idea and it seems rather troublesome. I would take me about one hour to fully implement it.

Sub-forums for all categories (FFT Hacking, Projects, Off Topic) doesn't seem like a bad idea, it's what Asmo suggested way back. That's not what I am suggesting here, though. I am just suggesting merging Spam and General and keeping it no Post Counting, no Moderation, off Topic threads, anything goes, serious or not - AS LONG as it's off topic to FFT and FFT hacking. (Which means everything that is in Spam and General right now basically)

[DarthPaul]

The "intended" purpose of General and Spam is just an ideal purpose if people used them as they were "intended" to be used. That statement is wrong because people are NOT using these 2 forums as they were "intended" to be used, obviously. As I said before, "Ideal Purpose" =/= "Actual Function" of these two forums.

I have a problem with this "proof". The problem is simply that the intended purpose of the section is what is under fire. The fact that the actual function does not fit the ideal is a matter of Zodiac not bothering to moderate as often as he should (not his fault I just assume he is busy, as are we all). You can't say "well let's scrap it" because something is going wrong.

Governments are supposed to support and defend the people and never harm them, but in reality it doesn't always work this way. So people ask for changes and re-forms.

This is a horrible example as you have handed me some ammo for my argument. When a government does not work for it's people they make reforms (hence the let's have a moderator for General). If the government continues to not work then it is abolished (which would be the equivalent of closing down half of the forums except for the sections related strictly to hacking and patching tools). What you are suggesting would be like making political parties merge, which does not happen because the ideals brought to the table by each faction are radical compared to the other faction.

[Archael]

I have a problem with this "proof". The problem is simply that the intended purpose of the section is what is under fire.

The intended purpose of the section is what you are using to argue that they should not be merged.

Seriously, are you trolling?

The fact that the actual function does not fit the ideal is a matter of Zodiac not bothering to moderate as often as he should (not his fault I just assume he is busy, as are we all). You can't say "well let's scrap it" because something is going wrong.

No, but I can say "let's improve it" because something is going wrong, and it is. Merging them is not scrapping anything, you'll still have your serious topics and your joke topics. They will just be in the same forum, the off topic forum, where they belong.

This is a horrible example as you have handed me some ammo for my argument.

The purpose of the example flew right by you I'm guessing, especially if you think it gives you "ammo" for anything.

What you are suggesting would be like making political parties merge, which does not happen because the ideals brought to the table by each faction are radical compared to the other faction.

Nope, because each forum doesn't represent a unique political party. The example was to try and explain how some things that work in principle might not do so in practice, such as having 2 off topic forums when only 1 is needed.

If you're going to try and use an example as "ammo", make sure you understand it properly, and not just twist it to construct what you think comes close to a semblance of a rebuttal.

[DarthPaul]

The purpose of the example flew right by you I'm guessing, especially if you think it gives you "ammo" for anything.

I didn't miss anything, but the incessant reiteration of previous belligerency is enough to make one wonder if this might be a troll on your part.

FFH won't adapt... members will!

Follow the advice from the admin okay. He has proven himself to be wise enough so I think he knows what is best for his forum. If he didn't I think he would be intelligent enough to hand the duties to someone else. And he has not done that.

[beawulfx]

I still think they are worth staying separate. I hardly check spam, because I find the quality of posts in there ON AVERAGE is very low and not much is posted there that I care to read. In General I find the AVERAGE quality of post is much higher and I tend to read every post in there and find it at least moderately interesting unless it's drivel about soft drinks and the speed at which they seem to disappear or the like.

I think it works fine as it is. Some people occasionally break the 'not so official rule' of the forums and get their signals crossed, but I certainly don't want them merged and see a new post in the spam/general board and click it only to find it's another addition to the brilliant 'never ending FFT' topic. (That was kind of a joke, just wanted to add a dig on that topic)

[Archael]

moved to p7