• Welcome to Final Fantasy Hacktics. Please login or sign up.
 
March 28, 2024, 09:34:58 pm

News:

Use of ePSXe before 2.0 is highly discouraged. Mednafen, RetroArch, and Duckstation are recommended for playing/testing, pSX is recommended for debugging.


Humanoid Classes/Abilities in ASMd

Started by philsov, April 11, 2010, 05:39:25 pm

Dokurider

I don't know how far you've gotten with giving monsters immunities, but I decided to come up with an incomplete list to start it off.

Y.Chocobo: Immune to all status except Charm <---the weaker the monster, the more statuses he should get
B.Chocobo: Chicken, Charm, Petrify, Stop <---arguably the strongest
R. Chocobo: Chicken, Charm, Petrify, Stop, Dead
R. Goblin: Slow, Stop, Don't Move, Dead <---Slow toughens him up vs Knights
B. Goblin: Slow, Stop, Frog
G. Goblin: Slow, Stop, Frog, Dead
R. Panther: Confusion, Death Sentence, Blind, Slow, Stop, Don't Move <---I think Panthers are pretty underused, so lots of statuses for them
Cual: Confusion, Death Sentence, Blind, Stop, Don't Move
Vampire: Confusion, Don't Move
Bomb: Sleep, Stop, Don't Act, Don't Move
Grenade: Sleep, Stop
Explosive: Sleep
Bull Demon: Berserk Undead, Petrify, Slow, Don't Move, Dead, Chicken
Minitaurus: Berserk, Undead, Slow, Don't Move, Dead, Chicken
Sacred: Berserk, Undead, Don't Move, Chicken
Jurvais: Poison, Oil, Don't Move, Don't Act, Undead <---ideally, an Archer's Nightmare
Steel Hawk: Poison, Oil, Don't Move
Cocatoris: Poison, Oil
Pisco Demon: Frog, Berserk, Confusion, Blind, Stop<--Ideally, lower tiers should be immune to the effects of their higher tier siblings
Squidlarkin: Frog, Berserk, Confusion
Mindflare: Frog<---I hate Mindflares, so none for you
Skeleton: Blind, Silence, Poison, Charm, Confusion, Death Sentence, Dead, Frog, Sleep, Stop, Chicken
Bone Snatch: Blind, Silence, Poison, Charm, Confusion, Frog, Chicken
Living Bone: Blind, Silence, Poison, Charm, Chicken
Ghoul: Don't Move, Death Sentence, Dead, Sleep, Stop, Poison,
Gust: Don't Move, Death Sentence, Dead, Sleep
Revnant: Don't Move, Death Sentence, Dead
Flotiball: Frog, Poison, Berserk, Slow, Don't Move, Petrify, Sleep, Undead<---A Mage's Nightmare
Ahriman: Frog, Poison, Berserk, Slow, Don't Move
Plague: Frog, Poison, Berserk
Uribo: Undead, Stop, Oil<---Uribos don't need alot of statuses
Porky: Undead, Oil
Wildbow: Undead<---Who'd want to eat undead Porky? Not me.
Woodman: [s:1tujne20]Bubble Lead[/s:1tujne20] Don't Move, Stop, Confusion, Slow, Frog, Don't Act <---Anti-Anti-Movement because he's already suffered enough
Trent: Don't Move, Stop, Slow, Frog
Taiju: Don't Move, Stop, Slow
Morbol: Poison, Blind, Petrify, Dead, Death Sentence
Ochu: Poison, Blind, Petrify
Great Morbol: Poison, Blind, Petrify
Behemoth: Don't Act, Don't Move, Sleep, Frog, Slow, Stop, Petrify
King Behemoth: Don't Act, Don't Move, Sleep, Frog
Dark Behemoth: Don't Act, Don't Move <---Already Present in 1.3
Dragon: Dead, Death Sentence, Oil, Charm, Frog, Chicken
Blue Dragon: Dead, Death Sentence, Oil, Frog
Red Dragon: Dead, Death Sentence
Hyudra: Petrify, Chicken, Don't Act, Frog, Sleep, Slow, Undead, Charm, Blind <---lots of statuses to make up for not having a third move
Hydra: Petrify, Chicken, Slow
Tiamat: Petrify

philsov

That's... actually one facet I'd forgotten about.  Thanks for the reminder.

I'll normalize it a bit though....

Major status:
dead+death sentence
petrify
charm
frog
sleep
don't act


Minor status:
poison
undead
darkness
slow
stop
don't move
confusion
oil


Each monster family gets 1 major and 1 minor immunity.  t1 monsters gain an additional major and minor while t2 gain the same minor as t1.

So...
Choco:   chicken,   stop
T1:   sleep,   don't move
      
Gobu:   charm,   blind
T1:   Petrify,   confusion
      
Bomb:   Petrify,   slow
T1:   chicken,   stop
      
Panther:   DA,   undead
T1:   dead+DS,   slow
      
Squid:   frog,   oil
T1:   chicken,   poison
      
Skele:   Sleep,   confusion
T1:   don't act,   slow
      
Ghost:   sleep,   don't move
T1:   charm,   stop
      
Floti:   don't act,   slow
T1:   sleep,   confusion
      
Birds:   sleep,   poison
T1:   don't act,   oil
      
Piggie:   charm,   undead
T1:   frog,   don't move
      
Treant:   dead+DS,   poison
T1:   don't act,   undead
      
Bulls:   Petrify,   blind
T1:   don't act,   oil
      
Morlboro:   frog,   oil
T1:   charm,   poison
      
Behemoths:   DA,   don't move
T1:   dead+DS,   undead
      
Dragons:   chicken,   confusion
T1:   petrify,   blind
      
Hydras:   dead+DS,   stop
T1:   sleep,   blind
'

Look good?  Tried to spread em out as best as possible.
Just another rebel plotting rebellion.

Dokurider

I think you should reconsider leaving out Berserk as a immunity. Floti family should have Berserk immunity for sure.

Zaen

Wouldn't Stop be far more major than Don't Act?
"Oh, God!! The Hokuten!!" ~Guard, Sand Rat Cellar

RavenOfRazgriz

I don't see the purpose in monsters gaining status immunities.

Even in 1.3, monsters were heavily underrated and between things like 2-3 Move basically leave the game made for them.

This on top of it makes me think you're going for Final Fantasy Tactics: Special Pikachu Edition.  =p

The Damned

That's assuming that he's leaving monster stats the same--also, while I do agree that there are quite a few 1.3 monsters that overrated, they still a)need humans to be truly effective and b)not all monsters can say the same; IIRC, the computer is pretty ignorant about how to use Monster Skill/Beast Master, so that's another additional disadvantage when it comes to fighting monsters. I feel like monsters should be threats on their own without necessarily having to OHKO-2HKO everything they touch. I mean, outside of Morbols and maybe Flotiballs, when was the last time you worried about a monster inflicting status on you rather than outright damaging you?

Considering he has a Blue Mage class, I don't recall if he ever gave an answer for how he was balancing those abilities for both humans and monsters, so perhaps this is it.

That said, I do somewhat agree with Raven that this is perhaps unnecessary if you're letting monsters keep their 1.3 movement, especially since humans move as horribly as Woodfolk now.

Then again, I've kind of given most of my monster way more status immunities, so really it's up to you, philsov. A more general overview of what you intend to do with monsters (and Blue Mage) would be helpful.

Finally, I agree with Zaen. Stop and Don't Act should switch places, even if you're factoring accuracy.
"Sorrow cannot be abolished. It is meaningless to try." - FFX's Yunalesca

"Good and evil are relative, but being a dick cannot be allowed." - Oglaf's Thaumaturge in "The Abyss"

"Well, see, the real magic isn't believing in yourself. The real magic is manipulating people by telling them to believe in themselves. The more you believe, the less you check facts."  - Oglaf's Vanka in "Conviction"

philsov

QuoteWouldn't Stop be far more major than Don't Act?

Not imo.  Don't Act lasts for longer and when afflicted with it the AI -runs- away, so the effects of Don't Act are at least 3 turns long.  Stop meanwhile is the loss of about 1 round of action, and the unit is still where he left off instead of running back into the fray.  Also DA has more avenues (and likelihood) of infliction.

However, including berserk into the mix is a good call, least for the more caster-y ones.

QuoteConsidering he has a Blue Mage class, I don't recall if he ever gave an answer for how he was balancing those abilities for both humans and monsters, so perhaps this is it.

The only abilities I'm balancing for both humans and monsters are the ones that are going to both humans and monsters in the first place.  However, the affected classes are getting their MA growth and multipliers warped.  For example:

Choco cure on a human with default value of like MA*4 is balls weak.  Choco cure gets bumped up to an MA*8 or something, and then chocobos get a lower MA to get back to their original final choco cure values.  Choco meteor then gets ratcheted up as well to control the ripple effect of lower MA.

There's still a few monster abilities that need to be looked at and changed/completely revamped, but in general they will be quite similar to what was seen in 1.3.  Chocobos, for example, aren't getting chicken as a monster skill, but I can't think of what (new?) ability can go in its place.

QuoteI mean, outside of Morbols and maybe Flotiballs, when was the last time you worried about a monster inflicting status on you rather than outright damaging you?

Goblins and squids suck with darkness/confusion combo, and the piggies of finath well... needed to be attended to.

Quoteif you're letting monsters keep their 1.3 movement, especially since humans move as horribly as Woodfolk now.

Newp.  They got scaled back along with everything else.  Woodfolk actually stayed at 2 because 1 is just horrible.  

QuoteI don't see the purpose in monsters gaining status immunities.

They can't equip accessories so I'd prefer them with a shotgunned list of immunities over absolutely none? >_>
Just another rebel plotting rebellion.

Zaen

It makes sense for them to have immunities. Think of it as defence mechanisms.
"Oh, God!! The Hokuten!!" ~Guard, Sand Rat Cellar

Dokurider

QuoteThere's still a few monster abilities that need to be looked at and changed/completely revamped, but in general they will be quite similar to what was seen in 1.3. Chocobos, for example, aren't getting chicken as a monster skill, but I can't think of what (new?) ability can go in its place.

Chocobuckle?

Zaen

Hah...  I read that wrong. I thought a chocobo in place of Carbuncle with a red diamond on it's forehead...

Make Chocobuckle like Repeating Fists formula maybe.
"Oh, God!! The Hokuten!!" ~Guard, Sand Rat Cellar

Dokurider

Okay, I'll be a little more serious. How about a stronger version of Choco Meteor? Or a 100% Single Target Heal Move? Or instant AoE Haste?

RavenOfRazgriz

Quote from: "philsov"They can't equip accessories so I'd prefer them with a shotgunned list of immunities over absolutely none? >_>

It's not like higher movement ranges and skills that'd make people cringe if a human unit had them in addition to nice raw stats isn't enough, is it?

Don't make me make my first run of this patch a Beastmaster playthrough.  I will, you know.  1.3 Beastmaster has already been more than easy enough going into Chapter 3 honestly, heh.  I should play that more when I get home tonight, I haven't in a while.

Squidgy

Wow. I was going for unlocking Geomancer, since that's my favorite job, but this guy has the same requirements, and... wow. When I first saw where this job was going, I thought it'd be annoying to have to be primary Blue Mage, then find monsters to use the abilities on the mage... lots of work. After using them, I see this problem won't be too much of a bother, as every character I have has switched to Blue Mage permanently.

But silliness aside, balance. I see these guys are still under construction as the two starting abilities have no charge time, no mp cost, and hit for more than the lev 1 Black Magic spells I have available, slightly less than the 3s, but those take tons of time and mp, and then the nuisance of Faith scores. The lack of vertical range restriction on Small Flame is especially powerful in this more "positioning-emphasized" environment... and even if the numbers are intended to be... (seems like... MA+2*8 and 12?) ...at this level, it still feels like the abilities are too simple, not suitable for a "mage". Adding a mp cost and charge to many/most/all of them would be awesome.

(Now if you're going for FFV Blue Mage, which I assume you are, with the swords... then they should have rods and shields available too, like their older rendition... the old Blue Mages also could equip armor, and that's probably pushing it... but then you'd have no MP... tradeoff acceptable?)

Gonna try editing the save file and throwing on all the monster abilities available... or have you fiddled with their formulas yet?

Dokurider

Uhh, see, the thing is, they aren't supposed to have those. They aren't supposed to have any starting abilities.

Squidgy

Well, if the balance for those is that they're all hard to acquire, that seems a bit off... Even if they only had Small Flame (Sweegy Woods), I would use it on all my characters for the rest of Chapter one. I should just emphasize the abilities feel too simple for now: no mana cost or charge time. For instance, Leaf Dance vs Wave Around... I only see Wave Around used if somehow you got surrounded by enemies followed by a layer of allies you didn't want to hit, and usually I'd just hit the allies anyways. (Of course they're different formulas, but I'm assuming Blue Mage primary, so PA/MA are relatively close.)

Also noticed Silence doesn't effect Blue Magic, but I don't really see that as a problem/bug...
And why does Stab Up play the dance animation? Heh... heh... cute.

Name:          mp  sp
Choco Cure     10  50
Goblin Punch   14  --
Look of Devil  4   25
Small Flame    8   34
Drain Touch    --  --
Leaf Dance     30  34
Thunder Breath 24  --
Wave Around    6   --
Sudden Cry     12  --

philsov

charge time is something I don't really want to deal with due to ripples in the monster paradigm.

However, MP cost will certainly be considered to make some of the better abilities... less than spammable.

Regarding blue mages in general, rods can be equipable, yes.  Don't wanna give them shields, however, and less so armor because I want them with below average HP and giving them armor contradicts this.  However, I'm pretty sure most of the abilities have been fiddled with regarding their coefficient. It's a tricky thing to balance... there's no multiple ranks so Flame Attack (e.g.) is supposed to be viable for a majority of the game with a single MA coefficient; so yes, odds are it will be stronger than desired early on and balance out as the game progresses -- vanilla repeating fist is very similar.  It's a VERY worthwhile ability in chapter 1 but then plum useless afterwards.  The only thing I can do is limit monster selection early on and load up the later-gained abilities to be stronger... but honestly the spellbook will be at 75% or so during chapter 2, with 3 unlockables in chapter 3 and then whatever tiamats give them way at the end.  

~

Aaaaanyways, Zodiac has come forth with a beta for Ability Hack requirements.  Basically, I can flag any ability to only be useable under certain circumstances, including weapon/item-based (Axe-only skill, hat+robe-only), weapon-restrictive (can't be in heavy armor/helmet), requiring specific items (genji-only attack!), only when afflicted with a certain status(ii), or only by certain primary/secondaries or only if equipped with a certain R/S/M.  Needless to say the possibilities are near-endless and this will certainly solve the issue of leftover ability slots going unheard.

So far the only thing I know I want is a Knight-sword only ability in the Battle Skill skillset, both an x-bow and longbow-only ability into the Archer, and a critical-only move to Basic Skill.  

Any other suggestions?
Just another rebel plotting rebellion.

Dokurider

I was wondering, could it be used to stop Two Swords Fists? As for abilities, maybe a Knife Only move for steal or basic skill. An attack that doesn't trigger reactions, SP*WP?

philsov

QuoteI was wondering, could it be used to stop Two Swords Fists?

Regretably, no.  Currently the only thing moddable are active action abilities (can't edit items, sadface), which "attack" is not.  

QuoteAn attack that doesn't trigger reactions

We... can rig that?

More shotgunned brainstorm ideas: enable the useless and otherwise gameshark-only R/S/M of Reflect and Silent walk to be learned and a pre-req for a linked ability.  Like we can rename the reaction to something like "Lifespore", and then make the linked ability a spammable 100% self-only cure which is a reasonable (imo) for not having a real reaction ability.  The same can be done for Any Weather / Any Ground, Sunken state, or other extremely low-tier goodies.

Knife-only Steal ability sounds cool too.
Just another rebel plotting rebellion.

Dokurider

Quote from: "philsov"Regretably, no.  Currently the only thing moddable are active action abilities (can't edit items, sadface), which "attack" is not.  

Too bad.

QuoteWe... can rig that?

Oh never mind. LFT was pulling my leg.

QuoteMore shotgunned brainstorm ideas: enable the useless and otherwise gameshark-only R/S/M of Reflect and Silent walk to be learned and a pre-req for a linked ability.  Like we can rename the reaction to something like "Lifespore", and then make the linked ability a spammable 100% self-only cure which is a reasonable (imo) for not having a real reaction ability.  The same can be done for Any Weather / Any Ground, Sunken state, or other extremely low-tier goodies.

Knife-only Steal ability sounds cool too.

That sounds very good. Could we prevent MP-Switch/Move MP Up as well?

Zaen

Actually... Attack is the slot one above Potion... and it is an action ability, as if you look in the thing to choose menus, like the Item inventory for Item, and so on, it's the Attack one. Attack is technically a one ability skillset.
"Oh, God!! The Hokuten!!" ~Guard, Sand Rat Cellar