flowoftime feedback thread

[RavenOfRazgriz]

1. I could tolerate Gained JP Up is removed from most of the patch here in FF Hacktics or insanely derpy, but Limiting JP to 10 per Action is... lame... It will take years to Unlock Ninja Class and learned all the best skills. I dunno if there is any out there who want to waste their lives playing the patch under such condition just to make his characters match up to Sephiroth or Ganandorf. I wonder why did the mods usually say "You don't have a life or You have no life"?

It's... Chapter 1.  You were expecting to get Ninjas in Chapter 1? 

JP gain was heavily reduced because Journey of the Five is simply a much longer game than Vanilla FFT (Chapter 1 is about equivalent to 2 FFT Chapters), and there are a host of sidequests and other non-Random Battle options that can also be used to get JP.

Also uh, if you've actually looked at the JP Costs, most of them are reduced by a fairly large %, especially on higher end Jobs and abilities.  No Job takes more than 3000 JP besides Dante's Son of Sparda class to master completely and most skills cost 300 JP or less, so if you want a particular skill, you can get it reasonably.

2. Monster, both in Story and Random Battle is definitely broken, but the AI coding is somewhat stupid or should I say "sometimes". To equally match up your character with this broken Monster you need to:
A>Grind your "JP" not your "EXP" like hell, unlock the Tier 1 Job and learn best skills with 10 JP per Act condition.
OR
B>Abuse save and load states like I did(Assasinate and Finish Touch = 100% Non-Boss 1 ACT KILL).
OR
C>Make use of AI's stupidity and commence the "Hit and Run Strategy"(You hit from afar, provoke the enemy to come at you by their stupid AI Coding then gang-bang/rape them) which people in insanely derpy say "The Real Strategy".

So many people have done video playthroughs showing that this isn't the consistent experience (ie, the only times they "get stuck" are the battles that were made intentionally difficult for the resources I expected the player to have at that time) I'm not really sure how to reply.  I mean yeah, a few of the story fights (ie Sweegy Woods) and a few of the Random Fights (ie Bariaus Valley Randoms) are difficult - especially some of the out of the way random battles - but I'm not sure what you want me to say there.

I'm also not sure why you need to keep up with the random insanely derpy slander all through this post.  It doesn't actually... erm... mean anything.

Otherwise, this patch has many positive things:
1. Free game. *Two Thumbs* Up!
2. Good Story/Ideas. It's still not great, though...
3. Good Mechanic = Most Jobs, Skills and Stats are changed.
4. Great Sprite.
5. Good Enemy's Scaling.
6. Etc.

At least you had fun.

Your reasoning is good, but since you always reject any idea given by the users here, that logic comes to my mind.

If you actually read the changelogs that are posted, when each new version is released, you'd find this to be demonstrably untrue.  (JP costs and Gil costs particularly come to mind as things that have changed heavily based on feedback.)

Equipments go as Chapter progress, unless you bother to steal High Lv Human Enemy's equipments.

Random Encounter enemies also scale equipment by your progression in the story so this part isn't true in Jot5.

This means that monster battles are more difficult at a higher level, and human battles less, but at low levels humans can become exponentially more challenging due to your lack of Gil but monsters easy as your gear surpasses their leveling.  That's completely intentional.  It ensures that there is something to challenge the player regardless of how they choose to play the game - you can "customize" so to speak which will be more difficult for you to handle based on how you prefer to play the game.  It keeps your choice whether or not to gain Levels relevant without making it High Levels = Easy Mode.

[Onisake]

I can't say I enjoy the game in terms of gameplay, but then again, I can't touch that.

10JP per action is a real nightmare indeed. Even if you consider shared JP, that's a potential of up to 18JP for everyone in one action, whoo-. (excluding guests)
Raven's logic behind this was that you'd have access to higher tier job at the end of ch4 if the only characters you use are the 5 and only focus on unlocking jobs... or something.

Much better ways to handle this. 1) release new abilities and new jobs with new chapters instead of having things we 'shouldn't have access to' through excessive grinding.

I find it FAR more understandable to limit abilities based on chapter hard coded, than have the abysmal JP gains.

As it stands, monsters can NOT have MP costs. They are hardcoded that way. So we'd need an ASM to undo it. I can't say I'm against the idea, but my opinion hardly matters.

You have to understand that Raven is in charge of the gameplay, and because he hates how FFT: Arena turned out, he won't let anyone butt in. If he doesn't agree with you, well, tough shit.

I honestly couldn't go through the game without cheating... I don't have that kind of patience. I praise those who do. I'm a tester and I've never beaten ch1 legit.

I'm not sure what Arena has to do with anything. two completely different games as far as i'm concerned.

if he doesn't like what I, or anyone else says that's really his business. but I feel it is a disservice to his hardwork if i don't post about my experience. negative experience should be taken worth more salt than positive.

It's... Chapter 1.  You were expecting to get Ninjas in Chapter 1? 

I had them in Vanilla FFT. They are there for me to unlock. I don't see the problem with it.

If we aren't supposed to have them, why are they there? it makes a lot more sense to simply remove them, and add them in when you want/expect us to have them.

if it's there, and it's possible to obtain through grinding, someone will try to get it. if you dont' want us to have it, don't put it in.

Any other argument, honestly, does not make sense. why do i expect to have ninja in chapter 1? because it's there and available to me

Random Encounter enemies also scale equipment by your progression in the story so this part isn't true in Jot5.

This means that monster battles are more difficult at a higher level, and human battles less, but at low levels humans can become exponentially more challenging due to your lack of Gil but monsters easy as your gear surpasses their leveling.  That's completely intentional.  It ensures that there is something to challenge the player regardless of how they choose to play the game - you can "customize" so to speak which will be more difficult for you to handle based on how you prefer to play the game.  It keeps your choice whether or not to gain Levels relevant without making it High Levels = Easy Mode.

1) if you grind excessively and your level reaches a certain point, your equipment will not be able to suppress relative monster strength. what is high level? what is low level? we're stuck with only chapter one. If I reach level 11 before Bariaus valley am I too high? level 15? the only way to really gauge this, is if we randomly encounter monsters and find we lack the equipment to close the gap in strength. With JP gains gimped as they are, you can't rely on skills because of how gimped jp gains are.

2) I like dark souls because it is challenging. I can challenge myself further by limiting myself to certain builds (Halberdier challenge is one of my favorites). However in that game, And every other game, grinding does not hurt you. You can hurt yourself by grinding in this mod because of how scaling works. Gating content is not uncommon. Even in a game as open as dark souls there is gated content. in successive releases, if you dont' want us to have something: please gate it. many of us like to get all available things before moving on. if i'm only suppose to have 2-3 abilities per job, then only give me access to them. limiting by JP gains was a bad idea. there are much better ways to handle it.

3) I can't say this enough: if you don't want a player to have access to something because it's 'too early' in the game. Don't put it in. don't want me to be over level 30? put a cap. don't want me to have certain abilities/jobs? don't put them in. it makes absolutely no sense to put something in the game, and then say you shoudn't have access to it because it's only chapter 1. if i'm not supposed to have it, why the hell is it there



Obviously you can't change these things now. but moving forward i hope you consider this. The mod is good. but it's not great because of some of the decisions made in design. That is really the biggest flaw of the game. you put in things you didn't want us to have. and it bother me. a lot. that you would do this.

[3lric]

I find it FAR more understandable to limit abilities based on chapter hard coded, than have the abysmal JP gains.

If we aren't supposed to have them, why are they there? it makes a lot more sense to simply remove them, and add them in when you want/expect us to have them.

if it's there, and it's possible to obtain through grinding, someone will try to get it. if you dont' want us to have it, don't put it in.

if i'm not supposed to have it, why the hell is it there

you put in things you didn't want us to have. and it bother me. a lot. that you would do this.

I prolly coulda found a couple more times that you wall of texted the same point OVER AND OVER, but instead I'll tell you flat out, The game doesn't work
that way. I don't expect you to know this, because you obviously do not hack FFT. Classes are unlocked based on JP gain, not story progress. Barring some
extensive ASMing, I really would not ever expect to see this in Jot5.

But now you know. And knowing is half the battle!
[GI JOE!]

[formerdeathcorps]

Maybe I'm biased here (because I originally rented FFT and played without a guide), but in all my FFT vanilla (and 1.3 runs), I never unlocked ninja until around late Chapter II or III.  Nor did I attempt the DD in vanilla on the actual console (it was my last day and I had to beat the game).
That being said, Raven's already being very fair.  Wouldn't it be better to have a small chance to unlock ninja in Chapter I rather than have the door be totally shut?  The latter implies that the game either has outlawed grinding altogether (which apparently is sacrosanct in a RPG), or there are lumps like per chapter level caps or job caps which do not flow with Jot5's plot.  (FFTA2 may be able to get away with it, but Jot5's plot isn't a coming of age story, which is the usual justification for such things.)

[Onisake]

I prolly coulda found a couple more times that you wall of texted the same point OVER AND OVER, but instead I'll tell you flat out, The game doesn't work
that way. I don't expect you to know this, because you obviously do not hack FFT. Classes are unlocked based on JP gain, not story progress. Barring some
extensive ASMing, I really would not ever expect to see this in Jot5.

But now you know. And knowing is half the battle!
[GI JOE!]

1) FFT Vanilla features abilities locked by chapter. Namely Ramza. His job may technically change between chapters, I can't remember. I do know he has more skills available to him, and he losses access to some from chapter 1 to 2. so if you did not learn them in chapter 1, you lose them forever.

while it may not be possible to hack this, I would put this as a limitation of the team. not the game. as it's proven to exist in the vanilla version. This may be nitpicking. but I know you guys aren't gods. you have limits to your understanding, just like I have limits to mine. but All i can see is it happens in the vanilla version. which means you should be able to do it too.

2) you are releasing the game in installments or at least piecemeal. is it really impossible to not include advanced jobs or certain abilities? (Again, i understand you can't do this now) 

If you are repackaging chapter one and two into a bundle upon completion of chapter 2, I could understand this. but as the game currently stands, you could have easily made a design decision to not do this for the very reasons i've mentioned: game balance and gating content.

Furthermore, heaven forbid, the team breaks up/moves on for some reason you have a stand alone game. not something that is incomplete, and will never be complete because of certain design decisions.

Games come out in installments all the time. Mass Effect is a great example. each chapter could easily have been stand alone. Less worry about savefile bugs when loading into chapter 2+. Everyone has to start over. It gives you more freedom to make the game you want without the cost of player experience.

3)Knowing is half the battle. Obviously I don't hack. but you've pointed out there is a way. Heavy ASMing. not sure what that means or is, but given the extensive changes you've made and the time put into it, i dont' find it unreasonable for you to try to make the best game you can with the tools available with whatever time constraints you place on yourselves.

But I also know things could have been done better. I stand by my statement: you included things you didn't want us to have access to (yet). they should not have been included. You say it's not possible. but it could have been by either

a) Heavy ASMing

b) better thought out installments per chapter.

c) stand alone chapters

4) Even if the game is repackaged upon completion of each chapter, the problem still remains. it will take an excessively long time to grind out jobs without a change to the JP system.

as was stated before, it takes roughly ~2600 jp to max out a class. that means 26 levels are gained. which means from 1-99 you can max 4 classes. There are a lot more classes than 4.

With a better JP system, chapter 1 doesn't have to 'end' the game. we could then be free to go through random encounters as much as we wish to fully experience the work you have done.

with the way scaling is, we would ensured to be challenged no matter what we encounter. Furthermore this could also provide valuable data for later chapters that are not yet finished.

Certain combos could be insanely overpowered and addressed before release because extensive builds have already been tested by the players.

5) the only good reasons i've seen for the system to be the way it is, is increased difficulty, you guys just didn't want it to be that way and/or were too lazy/unwilling to come up with a better solution.

[RavenOfRazgriz]

1) FFT Vanilla features abilities locked by chapter. Namely Ramza. His job may technically change between chapters, I can't remember. I do know he has more skills available to him, and he losses access to some from chapter 1 to 2. so if you did not learn them in chapter 1, you lose them forever.

Your Ramza is replaced with a different Ramza between Chapter 1 and 2, and again between Chapter 3 and 4.  No abilities are removed from his skillset during this process, just more are added to the end.  This is far from what you seem to think exists in the Vanilla version of the game.

2) you are releasing the game in installments or at least piecemeal. is it really impossible to not include advanced jobs or certain abilities? (Again, i understand you can't do this now)

Both your posts seem to misunderstand something.  You're expecting easy access to something high end in Chapter 1.  That's not what we intend to do just because "Vanilla did it".  They're there if you want them or if you feel you need them but they have requirements that reflect the points in the game you are "intended" to get them by design - the late Chapter 2 - mid Chapter 3 area.  If you want them sooner you can get them sooner, but the further ahead of the "curve" you want to be, the more levels you need to gain - making monster encounters more dangerous.  You're free to play the game however you deem fit, but expecting to get the best things early on easily just because Vanilla let you is silly.  And yes, each Chapter will include the previous Chapter because it is one full game, not four separate experiences.  We're merely releasing it in parts so people can actually play it as reasonable portions of the game are complete instead of waiting around on a 2-3+ year development cycle for the full thing to be done.

were too lazy

lol.

There are going to be changes to a lot of things for Chapter 2 (including some things regarding the JP system) but for the purposes of Chapter 1 and the scaling within Chaper 1 itself the 10 JP per action system gives you timely access to the skills the Chapter is balanced around you having access to.

[formerdeathcorps]

1) Ramza's skillset is additive.  You never lose skills.  It's also interesting to note that ONLY Ramza has "locked skills" (not Agrias, or Mustadio, or Beowulf).  The reason is simple: only Ramza exhibits the character growth in the story that would justify such additions.  Jot5 is not really a story about character growth; we have no good means of justifying that mechanic.
Another common method of justification is time lapse wherein Chapter I and II take place 2+ years about in the game's storyline.  If something happens to certain characters in between, unlocking new skills (or losing old ones) is justified, but it has to exist in the story for its own sake and not be tacked-on.  Again, Jot5 does not do this in between chapters.
As for having each chapter not accumulate the gains of the previous, that works best when
A) The units change between chapters.  One variant is the aforementioned physical / mental changes to existing characters (or a replacement of existing characters with new ones); another is the use of generic troops (so that you cannot be sure the generics you deploy in Chapter II are the same people as in Chapter I).
B) The gains accrued are temporary.  In other words, if all the bonuses are intended to be in-battle only (and reflect temporary states of heightened physical or mental prowess), then obviously, they should wear off when combat ends.
C) The game is real time.  IN real time games, it is often possible for a good player to beat the game with average or basic gear simply due to skill.  In such games, gear and abilities often matter less than your ability to dodge attacks and find opportune moments to strike.  Thus, resetting the gear in between chapters in such games is actually a means of increasing difficulty while still being fair.
D) The situation confronting the characters in Chapter II is so different that all the abilities and gear acquired in Chapter I are useless.  This works better if each chapter can "stand alone" as separate games.
It's obvious Jot5 meets none of the above conditions.  Furthermore, the starting scene DID erase everyone's skills to 0.  I'm sure Ramza (having survived all of FFT's plot) and the other heroes (many of whom were in active combat in their worlds) should have had starting skills (which isn't THAT hard to ASM), but given that 2 years have passed for Ramza and the way the other characters entered the scene, you can justify them all starting again as novices (even though the in-game reason is that we just started a new game).  However, to find 3 more excuses for the same thing happening is to stretch the incredulity of the player.  Furthermore, games work better if the difficulty curve generally increases from beginning to end.  Resetting skills and gear in between chapters makes it harder to follow this pattern.

2) The game is being released piecemeal due to technical limitations that can only be solved with a massive amount of ASM.  Once we accepted that, it was decided to release per chapter (rather than all at once) so people wouldn't have to wait three years.  Hence, it is assumed every release is meant to be part of an integrated whole (not some glorified demo for the full version). Of course, each chapter will be properly defined with a boss and a climax of its own, but there's no reason to assume Chapter I should be anything less than Chapter IV.

3) Your job locking proposal can be accomplished without ASM, but that aside, why is the game "incomplete" because it contains features you "weren't supposed to have"?  Wouldn't the game be "more incomplete" if those features were taken away and you were left only with 6 or 8 unlockable jobs in Chapter I?  If anything, all Raven did was a milder version of what Voldemort did in 1.3; he reversed the grinding paradigm so that an "easy run" is based on the intuitive strategies of a first-time player with experience at SRPGs and a "difficult run" involves over-leveling or "early tech tree scaling" of FFT "experts".  In other words, it penalizes those who overspecialized their playing style towards vanilla FFT.  Once you mentally adjust to what "challenge" means in this new system, the fun will flow naturally.

4) Unless Raven changed it since last I played Chapter I, you do have Move-Get JP.  It's not as bad as you say, but even then, the question must be posed.  Why do you have to master ninja or samurai or whatever else immediately?  Why not just buy the necessary skills necessary to win battles on your first play-through and worry about completion after you have a grasp of the game?

5) As for game balance, Raven is probably the best FFH has at the subject.  I'm sure he knows already what the maximum damage on any given unit combination is and he already set them within acceptable bounds.

[kyozo22]

Urgh... I fucking hate time differences... Missed all the fun!

Oni, next time you have a spare half-hour, consider getting the FFT patching tools and having a quick look through how they work. You'll soon find that there was absolutely no instances at all of the team being "lazy."

Regarding the JP issue, Raven's already covered this but I want to say my piece (cos I'm bitter bout missing it )  the JP costs are lower, you don't need to master everything by Chapter 1 END and, quite frankly, 'ZOMG VANILLA DID IT' isn't the best reasoning, given that we're on a site dedicated almost entirely  to sorting out the metric fuckton of issues that vanilla's 'balance' caused regarding a good gaming experience/ challenge.

I, for one, hav unlocked all th jobs before and mastered them all (barring two jobs that need Chapter 2 and onwards to complete) not because I have no life, but I'v been quite ill erecently and had nothing better to do whilst recuperating. It's very tedious, yes, but totally doable to do whilst keeping levels low.  Even if it weren't, regarding your issues with monsters level scaling, if you're grinding JP even just partially efficiently, then you should be at a decent advantage (remember, it's skills and strategy/ TACTICS(huh, it's almost like the vanilla game title's trying to tell you something?), NOT equipment that make the difference both in FFT and JoT5.)

"Overpowered job combos" don't exist. Trust me. I've done between 8-10 playthroughs of Chapter 1 (none of which I bothered to use Move-Finds. Good to know they're 100%.) and a load of experimentation that has shown me that there aren't many/ any OP combos. There's plenty of great synergetic options, but if you're low level thenprepare for half MP to be in use lots.

Anyway, it's 4 AM here and I'm bloody exhausted. Leaving it like this just now. May add stuff later, or just wait for a reply.

[3lric]

O_o I still don't get it, I suck at these games, and I still never thought Jot5 was difficult, and I had nothing to do with the battles,
only the events. If you go in unprepared and never switch off to get Monk and/or Priest, well, You are meant to branch out.

The Alma battles (I really don't understand this) Since they were seriously made much easier.

I am anything BUT an expert and the only battle I had issues with extensively was Chicken Durbs. Everything else is balanced in a way
that is very beatable with proper planning.

[kyozo22]

Yeah, I had few problems as well, bar Goug fight 1 with Ramza and co. And that was just trying to get th hidden moves (which I got, but it wasn't strictly legit...) I always found the Alma sections easy enough, Mbarrier and Invigorate tended to put you well on the way towards success. Plus Shock/ Thunder abilities being 100% really helped.

Meh, guess it's just different playstyles. I'm also used to 1.3, and whilst this is certainly more challenging than vanilla, it sure ain't 1.3 difficulty. Will wait for the Developer' Edition for that.

Note: I'm USED to 1.3, but I'm pretty crap at it.

[Jumza]

I also am not great at these kinds of games, and I only found it difficult until I actually unlocked the black mage job, then I breezed through the rest of the chapter until I hit ganondorf, which took me awhile but is was a very rewarding experience when I finally won, and then I beat ganon again and got extremely unlucky while doing so for a youtube video. If you watch that video you can almost hear me cringing everytime one of my abilities miss, but I still managed to beat him despite that.

I don't understand how you guys found JoT5 that difficult I found it to be a very enjoyable difficulty

I can't even get past dorter in 1.3...

[formerdeathcorps]

Jumza, look up the history of Petals Around the Rose.  When I was first introduced to the game, I watched in sheer frustration as everyone around me, including people who were terrible at math, get the right answer while I was left making one wild guess after another.  It's very much an anti-mathematical game in that the more advanced math you know, the more likely you are to ignore the hint contained in the title and overthink the problem (because in math, the general method for solving a word problem is to change everything into numbers and then try to find a function that matches the seemingly random statistical phenomena).  A regular person, on the other hand, who doesn't have this preconceived idea that words are irrelevant, will quickly realize how the title is a hint and then deduce the correct function.

Analogously, I think we can argue that the more "expert" you are at beating vanilla by "cheap tricks", the less well you will do in Jot5.  That's why you, me, and Elric did fine, while those who were used to having high level units in Chapter I found the game sheer misery.

[flowoftime]

Okay all, thanks for the feedbacks.

1st I'm sorry for bringing insanely derpy up... It has nothing to do with FF Hacktics. My bad...

2nd Whoooaaa what a wall of text. I don't bother myself to read them all.

3rd As Onisake said we're stuck at Chapter 1(unless you pause the game and wait for update), we don't have anything to do beside clearing Marks, grinding and of course maximizing skills, money, items and equipments.

4th This maybe Off Topic, but I do have 4 Characters(including Ramza) with Maximum Brave, Faith, most of broken skills learned at Chapter 1 in FFT Vanilla. My fella even reach lv 70 with Chapter 4 equipments(Rune Blade, Black Costume, Bracer, etc) before the battle in Dorter at Chapter 1. He seriously need a life...

5th IMHO, JOT5 isn't difficult, It's damn annoying. If you're new to FFT, you're dead meat! You gotta play FFT Vanilla 1st before playing this. Difficult or unforgiving it maybe, it's still running on an emulator. Remember folks, emulator has a feature called save and load states. Abuse this and you'll finish the game with ease. Legit plays without abusing save and load states = stress, but most of you guys find this legit plays = fun. Well, at least I have my own fun and you have yours.

Questions:
1. What's LP stand for? Videos?
2. Mods, did you work on AI Coding? I found that your AI Coding isn't so different from the Vanilla. Is it just me or most of the enemies usually charge me ALONE without forming a group and can easily be banged into slaughtering? Bosses are exception since they're freakingly broken.
3. Mods, why don't you add accessories that prevent Poison, Charm and Confusion? Is it because we're still at Chapter 1(a Chapter with Bad Breath, Venom/Poison, Charm and Confusion)? Bad Status without a prevention accessories = fun?

[Advent]

O_o I still don't get it, I suck at these games, and I still never thought Jot5 was difficult, and I had nothing to do with the battles,
only the events. If you go in unprepared and never switch off to get Monk and/or Priest, well, You are meant to branch out.

The Alma battles (I really don't understand this) Since they were seriously made much easier.

I am anything BUT an expert and the only battle I had issues with extensively was Chicken Durbs. Everything else is balanced in a way
that is very beatable with proper planning.

I.. honestly don't get it either. The only battles I had any problems with (granted I kinda skipped the marks, for reasons that will become apparent in a moment) were Sweegy Woods and Ganon because I wanted to see the new jobs and grinded like a stripper on her pole after tax refund day. The monster growths really screwed me there (Ganon's goons one shot almost everyone with one Kotetsu, and the rest die in the next turn), but I'm sure that if I went through it again without excessive grinding that I could pull it off without too much trouble.

But like kyozo, I too am used to 1.3 by now. I never thought that Jot5 was nearly as hard as people are saying, but maybe that's just me. I do make the distinction between fun and unfun difficulty, and for the most part Jot5 was mostly in the realm of the former.

[Angel]

I should correct myself. The second Alma battle (in the current version) wasn't so much hard as it was long. They both were most certainly made easier over time, just the second one only gives you the bare minimum to work with while the enemies chip away at you. It isn't what I would call hard anymore, just groan-inducing. By that point in the story, I have a well-honed utility knife of a team, and then get bumped off to a sidestory with undeveloped characters who are fighting what I could otherwise be tearing apart in no time, but instead must spend 20-30 minutes on a single battle. That is more what I meant. Not hard, just... long.

To date, the battles I've lost were Alma 1 (in the demo), and Ganon at least once in every version. Okay, and Bariaus that time I had everybody master their base job in the first battle. So I'm not saying it's difficult, it's just rough for the reasons stated. But I also think MP should be abolished entirely, so take that for what you will.

[kyozo22]

... I'm so glad I've never seen a pic of you IRL, Advent. That would be a bitch of an image to try an wipe from my memory. Thanks for that, was a fucking awesome simile though, I'll steal it for my writing...

Yeah, Toshiko, I get what you mean about Alma 2. I spend the first few turns Mbarrier/ ainvigorating, then Gunk Shot the Malboro and take it from there. Out of curiosity, what have you got against an MP system? I actually love the fact there are so many MP costs in JoT5, even though I didn't think I would. If you've got a unit using MP-heavy spells, stick MP Absorb on 'em and cast Invigorate, for example (assuming you have that, of course.)

[Angel]

Yeah, Toshiko, I get what you mean about Alma 2. I spend the first few turns Mbarrier/ ainvigorating, then Gunk Shot the Malboro and take it from there. Out of curiosity, what have you got against an MP system? I actually love the fact there are so many MP costs in JoT5, even though I didn't think I would. If you've got a unit using MP-heavy spells, stick MP Absorb on 'em and cast Invigorate, for example (assuming you have that, of course.)

I loathe MP, and always have - especially in a game with CT. If you have CT, you already have your counterbalance. And when you have MP with skills that carry such a heavy cost that you can only use them 1-2 times PER BATTLE, it is totally crossing the line, by miles. If your battle system uses MP, I hate you. Use CT or cooldown instead of relying on a bullshit relic that should never have persisted into the 16-bit era, much less to present day.

[kyozo22]

If your battle system uses MP, I hate you.

You, uh, have many friends that enjoy traditional RPG mechanics...?

Sounds like my opinion on turn based combat in general these days. Ni no kuni did that shit damn well.

[Advent]

... I'm so glad I've never seen a pic of you IRL, Advent. That would be a bitch of an image to try an wipe from my memory. Thanks for that, was a fucking awesome simile though, I'll steal it for my writing...

Hahaha.

I loathe MP, and always have - especially in a game with CT. If you have CT, you already have your counterbalance. And when you have MP with skills that carry such a heavy cost that you can only use them 1-2 times PER BATTLE, it is totally crossing the line, by miles. If your battle system uses MP, I hate you. Use CT or cooldown instead of relying on a bullshit relic that should never have persisted into the 16-bit era, much less to present day.

I.. disagree, because from a developmental standpoint it makes it easier to balance stuff out. You have two things you can adjust to fine-tune it more (more than two, but strictly speaking on CT and MP). Whether or not Raven and Elric balanced it correctly* is another issue entirely.

*For what it's worth, I enjoyed it, as I said earlier.

[Angel]

Playing Ni no Kuni right now, actually. I groaned when I got magic and found I could use it twice before out of MP, and Oliver isn't physically strong. And enemies have, so far, not been kind in dropping the blue sphere things. And there are, so far, no MP replenishing items. Just save points and inns. And a world where you can't take two steps without something rushing at you.

FFXIII, loathe as I am to say it, has a wonderful battle system. It's easy to avoid fighting anything you don't want to, easy to pick a fight with what you do, and there's no MP. Actions are actions, just some actions take up more ATB slots to pull off. Simple. No bullshit. And the paradigm system is brilliant. What wasn't brilliant was how by endgame, you had a set party of the three characters you just ALWAYS use with a golden paradigm deck, and you approach every encounter the same. Boring.

Another system that worked really well, and one of my personal favorites: Skies of Arcadia. The SP system was brilliant; all characters' actions come from the same SP pool, which auto-increases every turn, and can be increased faster by using Focus. Just pretend it didn't also use MP. >.>

The only time MP has been used for pretty much every skill and not bothered me was FFX. Aside from having my favorite battle system of all time (instant turns! CT! Delay opponents' actions!), I honestly never once, not even in the very beginning, felt like MP was a hindrance. It was always in great abundance, and any character could get a 1 MP Cost ability while also having 99,999 MP. And this is a great example of why MP is pointless. There really was no reason for it to be there, because you never got down to 0. And yet, the gameplay was FANTASTIC. Fuck off, MP. Nobody needs you.