Projects => Completed Mods => FFT Arena => Topic started by: silentkaster on April 26, 2016, 10:59:45 pm
Title: Discord Discussion
Post by: silentkaster on April 26, 2016, 10:59:45 pm
Come join us for the 1.4 Arena discord discussion! https://discordapp.com/channels/174703237272698881/174703237272698881
Title: Re: Discord Discussion
Post by: Shintroy on April 27, 2016, 12:16:44 am
Invite didn't work. Make an infinite invite.
Title: Re: Discord Discussion
Post by: dw6561 on April 27, 2016, 12:20:21 am
try this: https://discord.gg/0yVBfKgVSrUfnnYc
I finally figured it out, lol.
Title: Re: Discord Discussion
Post by: Andrew on April 27, 2016, 01:49:11 am
What we all decided upon today, starting with skillsets and going in order according to the master guide. DISCLAIMER: These are just ideas that we all managed to agree on to an extent, came-up with on the spot (or borrowed from previously-suggested ideas), and are not finalized. As such, the ideas posted are rough, can be fine-tuned at a later date, and are lacking detailed information. Ultimately, they may not all (if any) make it to 1.4.
CHIVALRY - Grand Cross: 1 AoE around caster (like Muramasa) OR 12 MP cost OR lower vertical tolerance; Reraise: sticky-targeting OR 0 CT.
SNIPE - Hawk's Eye: Loses Poison and accounts for Darkness; Leg Aim: Stop or Don't Move (small JP increase); Weapon Break: Becomes "Steal Weapon" and is given to Thief.
PUNCH ART - Spin Fist: smart-targeting with 200-250 JP cost; Wave Fist: Loses Wind elemental?
BLACK MAGIC - Fire: Old Oil, low chance to land; Poison: smart-targeting, 0 CT OR 10% HP damage.
TIME MAGIC - Haste/Slow: 75-80%; Haste2/Slow2: 90%~; Stop: 60%.
SUMMON MAGIC - Shiva/Ramuh/Ifrit/Silf: MA*7; Salamander: Non-elemental OR 20% Berserk with lower AoE; Zodiac: non-elemental; Fairy: 50% HP healing; Carbuncle: 0 MP cost.
Title: Re: Discord Discussion
Post by: Shintroy on April 27, 2016, 08:35:34 am
Don't agree with most, if not any of those changes due to making other abilities obsolete. Like Fairy being an AOE, smart targeting raise. I'll get into that at an appropriate time though.
Title: Re: Discord Discussion
Post by: Barren on April 27, 2016, 08:50:57 am
I was thinking for Regenerator what if you get a 25% or 33% of Max HP heal then regen. That I think would help make regenerator more viable. Anyone here agree or disagree?
Title: Re: Discord Discussion
Post by: Reks on April 27, 2016, 09:02:48 am
Quote from: Barren on April 27, 2016, 08:50:57 am I was thinking for Regenerator what if you get a 25% or 33% of Max HP heal then regen. That I think would help make regenerator more viable. Anyone here agree or disagree?
Little heal and Regen is FAR better than just Regen. I can agree comfortably with at least 25%.
Title: Re: Discord Discussion
Post by: Andrew on April 27, 2016, 10:28:23 am
Quote from: Shintroy on April 27, 2016, 08:35:34 am Don't agree with most, if not any of those changes due to making other abilities obsolete. Like Fairy being an AOE, smart targeting raise. I'll get into that at an appropriate time though.
These are just ideas that we all managed to agree on to an extent, came-up with on the spot (or borrowed from previously-suggested ideas), and are not finalized. As such, the ideas posted are rough, can be fine-tuned at a later date, and are lacking detailed information. Ultimately, they may not all (if any) make it to 1.4. Besides, this is just the beginning, as we've simply started with the skillsets and are working our way up from there; we only had the patience/time to talk about Basic Skill to Summon Magic, in order according to the master guide. So, for these changes making other skills "obsolete", we won't truly know this until we've finished discussing, well, everything else.
I hope that you can manage to join the Discord chat the next time we have it. For the majority of us, it was something new to fiddle around with, so we weren't entirely sure why certain things were happening or not happening... such as your invite not working?
Title: Re: Discord Discussion
Post by: dw6561 on April 27, 2016, 10:41:43 am
I updated the link, it should be a permanant invite now. If it still wasn't working I don't really know but I can try to play around with it. When do you all want to start up discussion again? I'm free pretty much any day around the times we've been streaming, but if we can go at another time that would be fine.
Title: Re: Discord Discussion
Post by: Barren on April 27, 2016, 10:47:49 am
Well today i got plans after work but tomorrow might be a better day because I don't got work. Whatever time you want to do it just say the word
Title: Re: Discord Discussion
Post by: silentkaster on April 27, 2016, 11:05:37 am
Quote from: Barren on April 27, 2016, 08:50:57 am I was thinking for Regenerator what if you get a 25% or 33% of Max HP heal then regen. That I think would help make regenerator more viable. Anyone here agree or disagree?
Completely disagree, unfortunately. Auto Potion heals for 70 HP regardless of the unit's damage taken. You're talking about healing, at minimum, 75 HP on a 300 HP unit (and 300 HP is very easy to get to in most cases). For Auto Potion to break even with just the HP alone, we're talking the unit has to be 280 HP which most mages get to fairly easily as well. The 400 HP paladins that would have this as a reaction would be game breaking I feel like.
If anything, I'd say a JP drop is fine. It's in white magic and the reaction isn't really supposed to be great anyway due to the fact that White Magic is such a necessary skill set. It can deal with the poison from Wiznaibus spam and other poison attacks, and/or be a way of passive healing for units that otherwise can't restore their own HP.
Quote from: Shintroy on April 27, 2016, 08:35:34 am Don't agree with most, if not any of those changes due to making other abilities obsolete. Like Fairy being an AOE, smart targeting raise. I'll get into that at an appropriate time though.
Then I hope you can join us for the next discussion. Realize that we spent a hefty amount of time on each class we discussed (which reminds me, I forgot to bring up an issue I had with time mage but I was up way too late :P) so none of the suggestions we came up with were taken lightly. The discussion went for a solid three+ hours on just those classes/abilities alone and while I don't agree with all of them either, I can see the reasoning behind each one. We haven't discussed the other eight classes yet or the Netherseer idea at all, so some of those abilities may change to compensate so if you know something we overlooked, please make sure you join us so we have that knowledge next time.
I'm fine with tomorrow at 7 or 7:30 EST if everyone else is. I'd at least like to get classes and abilities done this week if possible :P
Title: Re: Discord Discussion
Post by: Kurosabes on April 27, 2016, 02:31:51 pm
Your disagreement on the ideas is understandable, especially since this is just a summary of the ideas without any details on why they should happen. Also it may just be an excuse, but most of us were tired, after all, the discussion started (and ended) fairly late and right after the stream, to boot. If our next Discord starts earlier, we'll be fresher and have clearer thoughts.
Title: Re: Discord Discussion
Post by: CT5Holy on April 28, 2016, 12:02:52 am
Unclear if I'll be making it tomorrow or not, but discuss away regardless~
Title: Re: Discord Discussion
Post by: Shintroy on April 28, 2016, 10:54:31 am
It's just a lot of the suggestions just undo what FFMaster fixed from 138 to 139 Hi Potion - lowered JP defeats the purpose of even having two different potions. Eventually there will be only one potion that heals based on %.
Grand Cross - Huge nerf to restrict it to aoe around caster only. It already does that so why not just nerf the vertical range on both "Cross" attacks. Reraise - It's fine as is. It was too bugged and stall heavy at 0 CT.
Hawk's Eye - Fine with it being affected by Darkness. It must have been a bug in the first place. Also okay with it losing poison since the damage formula's already OP since it's based off pure SP. Keep it adding 100% oil though. Oil abilities need to be in the game. Keep it weapon elemental as well.
Weapon Break - Fine on archer. Doesn't really get much usage at the moment. If anything steal will need some new abilities since it may remove quickening and it has a lot of semi useless abilties like Bad Luck.
Monks getting Goblin Punch is okay with me. Let's just keep the vertical the same. No need to buff it to the point where it's a over powered insant physical summon/draw out like abliity.
Wave Fist being wind element made sense. If it was made non elemental I'd suggest it get it's vanilla JP cost of 300 since it's a strong buff giving monk a reliable ranged damage option..
Cure 4 - Not a fan of any Cure spells getting % healing.
Protect/Shell - I'm behind these two getting low % healing so the AI use them. Regen - Rather just give it smart targeting than change it. With version 140 getting poison immunity to an accessory or two there doesn't need to be too many hard counters to poison. Especially with one of the main moves for adding poison being changed to not anymore.
Fire - Same with Cure. Not a fan of it getting HP % damage. That's what Demi is for, let's keep it that way. The poison status effect could be changed. Not sure to what though. Maybe poison?
Haste/Slow - Can definitely use a buff. Haste2/Slow2 - No reason to nerf them
Don't agree with anything on for summon magic especially Fairy. I think I already listed why. Just posting now since it's not guaranteed I'll be in the discord tonight.
Please remember why some changes were made from 138 to 139 just in case I'm not there to remind everyone.
Title: Re: Discord Discussion
Post by: Andrew on April 28, 2016, 04:03:08 pm
I probably won't be able to make it to the Discord, either, so I'll just post some detailed thoughts on the ideas we came up with:
Having another source of Berserk removal would be nice, and it's right at home with Heal due to its ability to heal "uncommon" status effects in the first place. Besides, it has a short range, and its user may have difficulties trying to dispel a berserked ally anyway, which wouldn't make this alteration overpowered in the slightest, but instead a nice addition.
The main problem with Ultima is that it gets redirected very easily; and, since it's non-elemental and not reliant upon Faith, makes it more deadly for its users than its original targets. I don't think anybody would ever argue over the suggestion to drop it to 3 CT.
With a single use, it has the potential to heal its user, damage multiple enemies AND heal multiple allies. To make things worse, it's 0 CT, has a vertical tolerance of 3 (1 more than a melee Attack), and doesn't receive a damage penalty. 400 JP cost? Who cares if your unit is just spamming Grand Cross anyway, which only costs 8 MP to use. Melee range? 3 Move units would have an issue on large maps, but are fine on medium/small maps. The AI is unable to understand that, unless they can kill, it's pointless trying to deal damage to a Grand Cross user at all, resulting in some very stupid AI behaviour.
If it were to be balanced, one out of three of the following ideas could work:
1) Make it 4-direction, 1 AoE, and still affecting the caster, just like how Masamune works. This way, it can still heal its user, but only affect ONE other target, cutting its current potential efficiency in half.
2) Give it a CT of 2-3. This way, it can be interrupted, makes its user vulnerable for that split moment, and the dumb AI can make it up to the player by moving out of the way of a potential one-hit-KO.
3) Lower its vertical tolerance to 1 (or even 0). This would force its user to consider other attacks, such as its actual regular Attack, and prevent less situations where its user can pull-off such ridiculous feats of self-healing, ally healing, and enemy damage all in one swoop. Mind you, this change wouldn't really affect its current OPness in flat maps, making this my least-impactful idea.
I was the one that suggested the lock-on targeting, but now that I've had more time to think about it, it really is fine the way it is, considering that it's very fast, has decent range, only costs 100 JP, and has a 100% chance to grant Reraise. So, it's fine the way it is, really.
I hate this skill. It works with any weapon type, it's unavoidable, deals SP*WP damage, ignores Darkness, AND afflicts Poison and Oil. It's still worth picking up even on the weakest of units because of all of those pros. Yeah, it has 3 CT and costs 12 MP to use, but proper unit order and using Hawk's Eye on any clothes/robes user (which is the mass majority of jobs) negates these downfalls. While I don't mind it losing Poison and being subjected to Darkness, I feel that it should AT LEAST become evadable. SP*WP damage promotes use with Long Bows, with most of those granting a point of Speed, having high WP, and ridiculous range. It's very easy to build an archer that can spam high-damage Hawk's Eyes AND be able to do something else, unlike a Grand Cross spammer.
I'm all for this current suggestion. Don't Move isn't nearly as useful as Stop is, but having it have a chance to afflict Stop as well would force the AI to use it more often. Stop (skill) can backfire and costs MP. Stall can be easily negated by Finger Guard users, and the fact that it has a short range in comparison. Leg Aim is 0 CT and relies on its user's weapon range, allowing for the player apply Stop in a different fashion, all with the cost of having a 50% chance to apply Don't Move instead. Sounds balanced to me, really.
Its current form is bad, due to the potential friendly-fire KOs and lack of vertical tolerance. At least smart-targeting would be fine, just like Shintroy said, or a vertical increase of at least 1 would be neato!
Currently, the only reliable ranged attacks Punch Art has access to both have elements slapped on top of them. Earth Slash I can understand, as it's been this way since vanilla, and people are used to it functioning like this. Wave Fist, on the other hand, has the ability to strike from a distance in all directions, which sorely make up for the lack of vertical range on the likes of Spin Fist and Repeating Fist, and the 4-direction of Earth Slash.... unless you encounter Wind-absorbing enemies. Yeah, there goes your flexibility, dear pugilist, unless you sacrificed a bunch of JP for Earth Slash, as well. I'm ALL for it losing its Wind elemental status. If this is the case, then Heaven's Cloud could adopt Asura's formula.
This is a skill that we spent nearly 20-30 minutes talking about; the result wasn't hastily decided upon. If it becomes this way, CT and MP costs would be adjusted. It was originally suggested to promote more White Magic usage amongst low-Faith users (like how Wall does). Again, the numbers are rough, and can always be changed in the future. I'm all for a Cure 4 functioning like this.
Promotes the AI to use them more proactively? I'm all for it. The current form of these skills SUCKS, as the AI typically only uses Protect/Shell/Faith when a unit's HP is just above/below half.
I'm okay with either smart-targeting or 0 CT, as they both would serve the same purpose in the end. Another thought I had was making it land 100% of the time, again promoting White Magic amongst low-Faith users. I don't believe this would be OP, since it still would have a CT and cost MP, and would be the higher-AoE alternative to Masamune.
I'm cool with either suggestion, but I feel that if it became AoE, it should still cost a bit more MP... maybe 12, at least? Would definitely make it an interesting alternative to Holy spam.
The suggestion implied that it would still remain the same, but its proc would instead be of the old Oil, and have a lower chance to apply. I feel impartial to this suggestion.
Shintroy, of course that Poison would still afflict Poison, I just listed ADDITIONS to its original effect. Duh. :P. I'm fine with either, to be honest.
Completely fine with these two receiving accuracy boosts.
Considering how potent they are in their current state, an accuracy decrease sounds fine to me, as it would promote more Haste/Slow usage, and fail more often on low-faith targets.
A slight nerf to their damage to make-up for the fact that, in their current state, they're essentially more potent versions of Elemental. Higher damage, unavoidable, much larger AoE. Yeah, you need to invest faith, but there's also anti-low-faith skills out there, as well, and plenty of neutral skills like Talk Skill that simply don't give a shit. Yeah, they cost MP, but so little that it won't matter on the units that can use them effectively. Yeah, there's CT... but it's 3, lol. In order for Elemental to be effective, you need to build specifically for it, unlike Summon Magic. I'm all for this change, and I may be a wee-bit bias since I'm the one that suggested it, teehee!
A mid-tier summon that doesn't offer much over the low-tier summons, much like Leviathan and Titan. At with making it non-elemental, it could be considered a faster, less-expensive Bahamut, with the addition of buffing its elemental buddies. As for the Berserk suggestion, it's take it or leave it for me. Definitely would see MUCH more use either way.
Comparing this boosted Fairy to the current Raise: it's more expensive MP-wise (nearly double), has roughly the accuracy of Raise 2, costs 200 JP (Raise costs 100 JP) and a VERY SMALL CHANCE of resurrecting multiple allies. I've only ever seen it resurrect two before (only one time), but never anymore than that. Honestly, what are the odds of two allies, much less three, all dying with 1 AoE of one another? Fairy's AoE is more of a gimmick than anything else. I'm all for this change... any less, even something like 45%, would cause the AI to waste turns healing.
Any skill that restores MP shouldn't cost MP to use, plain and simple. If it were to become 0 MP, maybe it could heal MA*5 MP instead? A slight nerf to its restoration capabilities in exchange for being able to use it when you NEED to use it.
Title: Re: Discord Discussion
Post by: silentkaster on April 28, 2016, 05:03:58 pm
Who will be able to make it? I'm not sure if we had firm plans for tonight since only Barren confirmed and I said I'm fine if others are. I'd like at least 4-5 people for discussion...if not we can always reschedule. I can do tonight or if not, can do Saturday/Sunday in the morning, or any day next week 7 PM and after EST.
Title: Re: Discord Discussion
Post by: dw6561 on April 28, 2016, 05:20:41 pm
I'm available all day today, so I will definitely be there.
Title: Re: Discord Discussion
Post by: Andrew on April 28, 2016, 05:21:38 pm
I'll try my best to make it. If I do, it'll be a little late, though, probably an hour or more, sorry.
Title: Re: Discord Discussion
Post by: Kurosabes on April 28, 2016, 05:43:27 pm
I suppose I could fill in Andrew's role of summarizing
By the way, Hawk's Eye is 1 CT, the Master Guide is outdated.
Title: Re: Discord Discussion
Post by: Barren on April 28, 2016, 06:55:27 pm
Are we having the discord discussion now?
Title: Re: Discord Discussion
Post by: silentkaster on April 28, 2016, 07:04:25 pm
Yes. Link at top of post...use the one that dw posted second.
Title: Re: Discord Discussion
Post by: Kurosabes on April 28, 2016, 07:07:09 pm
We are just setting up, nothing's started yet. Waiting on more people
Title: Re: Discord Discussion
Post by: dw6561 on April 28, 2016, 07:10:01 pm
Yup the discord is up and ready to go, WKW and silentkaster are already here.
Title: Re: Discord Discussion
Post by: Andrew on April 29, 2016, 12:51:42 am
EDIT: My tired brain forgot a couple of things. Added.
What we ended-up covering today:
SQUIRE - Gain access to poles, but lose access to flails/possibly books, as well; Defend: When activated, grants Defend to entire team. 200 JP cost?
PALADIN - 5% C-Ev; gain flails, but lose katana.
MONK - 1 less PA.
PRIEST - 4 base Move.
WIZARD - +1 base MA?; access to knives?
TIME MAGE - Access to shields (if battlemages are not introduced)?
SUMMONER - base MP boost of 20-40 OR Scholar gives its PA (and possibly its access to swords, as well) to Summoner.
THIEF - HP lowered; Quickness: removed OR becoming self-haste (presumably 0 MP cost); Steal Heart: 40-45%; Bad Luck --> "Roulette": Random Dead - Reraise - Haste?; Gil Toss --> Pseudo Cover Fire 4 range, 0 AoE; Weapon Break --> "Steal Weapon": PA+35% chance, evadable?, 300JP.
MEDIATOR - Stall: JP corrected in master guide; new skill that adds Reflect; Mimic Daravon: vertical lowered to 1; Monster Talk: Increases Talk Skill success rate by 5%~; Refute: ignores Finger Guard.
ORACLE - Blind: Smart-targeting 0 CT; Spell Absorb: 0 CT; Life Drain: 0 CT; new --> "Doubt Faith": 1 AoE, MA+60% chance to land; new --> "Pray Faith": 1 AoE, MA+65% chance to land; Petrify: 5 CT?
GEOMANCER - Base stats: 10 PA/8 MA and 8 PA/10 MA; non-elemental Geomancy becomes PA+4 (over the original PA+2 in the formula).
LANCER - Gain access to robes; Jump skills use Jump instead of Speed for determining when they activate (consequently, Lancer base Speed will be increased to 9, and base Jump lowered to 4).
SAMURAI - Gaining spears, but losing innate Two-hands (provided spears are revamped); gaining bows?; Koutetsu: Lower vertical by 1?; Bizen Boat: Lower vertical by 1 and MA7 OR 1 AoE range OR triggers MP Restore; Murasame: MA*8 AND Regen (if Murasame loses Regen) OR 1 AoE range OR 1 lower vertical range OR MA*9; Heaven's Cloud: smart-targeting OR 3 AoE range and losing its Slow proc OR adopting Asura's formula; Muramasa: MA*8 and/or 33% chance to proc Death Sentence?; Masamune: Lose Regen, become 1 AoE and affecting caster?; Meatbone Slash: 100 JP?; Two Hands: 350 JP?
Title: Re: Discord Discussion
Post by: Reks on April 29, 2016, 03:06:01 am
SQUIRE - Defend: When activated, grants Defend to entire team. 200 JP cost?
PALADIN - 5% C-Ev; gain flails, but lose katana.
MONK - 1 less PA.
PRIEST - 4 base Move.
WIZARD - Access to knives?
TIME MAGE - Access to shields (if battlemages are not introduced)?
SUMMONER - base MP boost of 20-40 OR Scholar's base PA and access to swords?
THIEF - HP lowered; Quickness: removed; Steal Heart: 40-45%; Bad Luck --> "Roulette": Random Dead - Reraise - Haste?; Gil Toss --> Pseudo Cover Fire 4 range, 0 AoE; Weapon Break --> "Steal Weapon": PA+35% chance, evadable?, 300JP.
MEDIATOR - Stall: JP corrected in master guide; new skill that adds Reflect; Mimic Daravon: vertical lowered to 1; Monster Talk: Increases Talk Skill success rate by 5%~; Refute: ignores Finger Guard.
ORACLE - Blind: Smart-targeting 0 CT; Spell Absorb: 0 CT; Life Drain: 0 CT; new --> Pray Faith and Doubt Faith, 1 AoE, MA+60 and MA+65% chance to land; Petrify: 5 CT?
GEOMANCER - Base stats: 10 PA/8 MA and 8 PA/10 MA; non-elemental skills become PA+4.
LANCER - Jump skills use Jump instead of Speed, with their base Speed becoming 9 and base Jump becoming 4.
SAMURAI - Gaining spears/bows?; Koutetsu: Lower vertical by 1?; Bizen Boat: Lower vertical by 1 and MA7 OR 1 AoE range OR triggers MP Restore; Murasame: MA*8 AND Regen (if Murasame loses Regen) OR 1 AoE range OR 1 lower vertical range OR MA*9; Heaven's Cloud: smart-targeting OR 3 AoE range and losing its Slow proc OR adopting Asura's formula; Muramasa: MA*8 and/or 33% chance to proc Death Sentence?; Masamune: Lose Regen, become 1 AoE and affecting caster?; Meartbone Slash: 100 JP?; Two Hands: 350 JP?
Also Squires possibly dropping Flails instead of Books for Poles
Since Prismatic Rod covers all of the elemental Flails and they have access to Poison Rod, which makes Scorpion Tail obsolete
Title: Re: Discord Discussion
Post by: Andrew on April 29, 2016, 09:46:26 am
Oops, yeah, forgot a couple of things, including what Reks just mentioned:
Quickening: if kept, becomes self-haste.
Lancer: Gaining robes.
I think that's about it. All added to my original post.
Title: Re: Discord Discussion
Post by: Reks on April 29, 2016, 10:11:02 am
I think that's about it. All added to my original post.
Wizards proposed 13 MA as well :P
Title: Re: Discord Discussion
Post by: Barren on April 29, 2016, 01:22:08 pm
Next time we do a dischord discussion I really want to talk about shuriken being changed in 1.4. Whatever time that will be I will try to make it
Title: Re: Discord Discussion
Post by: Shintroy on April 29, 2016, 08:57:20 pm
Going to need a date for the next one. Do not want to miss mime.
Title: Re: Discord Discussion
Post by: Andrew on April 29, 2016, 09:00:09 pm
For the next Discord, whenever it may be, I'll have our previous suggestions compiled into a cleaner, more organized post. I'm available all weekend.
Title: Re: Discord Discussion
Post by: Kurosabes on April 29, 2016, 11:35:38 pm
I'd include suggestions from the past Discord(s) we've ended up debunking for the next one.
Title: Re: Discord Discussion
Post by: Shintroy on April 30, 2016, 07:33:08 am
Can make another channel called pending change list or pending changes. Make it so no one but mods can reply and post the archived suggestions there in one neat post.
Title: Re: Discord Discussion
Post by: Barren on April 30, 2016, 07:49:15 am
Today would be cool to host a discussion if that is cool with everyone. I can try to make it for 7:00 PM EST if everyone can
Title: Re: Discord Discussion
Post by: Reks on April 30, 2016, 09:01:20 am
Ahh, I'll probably miss most of the discussions and whatnot just due to that I usually sleep until 8 or so CST, and work at 10
So don't worry about me making it or not: I'll read logs and whatever and just vault my own ideas afterward
Title: Re: Discord Discussion
Post by: Andrew on April 30, 2016, 09:27:23 am
Unfortunately, my memory isn't all that impressive.... whatever we debunked is now long gone from my brain. If you want, I can start recording debunked suggestions from the next Discord discussion onwards; the ones that I can join, anyway.
Quote from: Shintroy on April 30, 2016, 07:33:08 am Can make another channel called pending change list or pending changes. Make it so no one but mods can reply and post the archived suggestions there in one neat post.
Maybe Ms. DW could? I think she's the one with the most Discord experience.
So don't worry about me making it or not: I'll read logs and whatever and just vault my own ideas afterward
Okie dokie.
Title: Re: Discord Discussion
Post by: Barren on April 30, 2016, 06:50:27 pm
Come and hang out now if you want then we can wait for people for a while before we begin again
Title: Re: Discord Discussion
Post by: dw6561 on April 30, 2016, 07:08:02 pm
Aww I have a concert right now...maybe I could join in later. :(
No seriously I can't even join in on my phone or anything and I'm super frustrated right now.
Title: Re: Discord Discussion
Post by: Andrew on April 30, 2016, 07:52:02 pm
It's okay, DW, we're not talking about anything major, just mostly shooting the shit with whomever shows up (It's currently me, Barren, WKW, Shintroy, and Reks. Shintroy JUST left to watch a stream, and Reks just arrived)
Enjoy your concert, DW!
Title: Re: Discord Discussion
Post by: Andrew on May 02, 2016, 12:16:03 am
When shall the next official Discord discussion be? Late in the evening (EST) is fine for me, sometimes.
Title: Re: Discord Discussion
Post by: Zotis on May 02, 2016, 12:59:28 am
I just figured I'd give my thoughts on some of the topics Andrew mentioned on the first page.
I think Hi-potion's JP cost does not need changing. It feels balanced as is.
I don't think I like the idea of changing Grand Cross's AoE, don't know about the MP cost or vertical tollerance though. It seems fine as is.
I don't know what "sticky targeting" means. If the CT for Reraise gets reduced to 0, I perceive a problem as a unit gets up and reraises itself instantly could be a bit OP.
Hawk's Eye loosing poison makes sense, and adding Darkness instead could work thematically at least.
Leg Aim inflicting Stop instead of Don't Move makes no sense.
Weapon Break is fine as is. Weapon Steal makes less sense to me.
Wave Fist loosing Wind element does make sense. It was always a non-elemental move and I think it works better as non-elemental.
Protect/Shell giving any healing at all does not make sense.
Dia should not be AoE at all, but 6 range could work, though I think it's fine as is.
Fire adding Oil has never made sense to me, especially since Oil boosts all elements and not just fire. I would advocate changing Oil to only boosting Fire like in the original game. Maybe make a different effect that boosts all/other elements?
Haste/Slow should be changed because as is they are never used. Reduce the CT, MP cost, JP cost, and increase the percentage of success, an improvement of some kind at least should be made I think.
I don't see the need to change any of the Summon Magic. Making Salamander non-elemental makes no sense. Fairy healing more would be too OP. Carbunkle being free to cast would be broken.
In conclusion I would like to say that change for the sake of change is pointless, even harmful. Changes should only be made in the pursuit of gameplay balance. Once things are solidified in a balanced way they should remain unchanged. Maybe FFT Arena can grow into a competitive scene with $$ tournaments. I'd like to see that, and constantly changing things doesn't help that because it changes the way the game is played and forces people to learn the new mechanics which can hinder the advancement of understanding the mechanics. It takes time, years in fact, to gain mastery level understanding of advanced strategies and tactics which advances the metagame of competitive play. So I don't like resetting that advancement unless it's essential.
Title: Re: Discord Discussion
Post by: Zotis on May 02, 2016, 03:05:19 am
Should Protect and Shell have a buff? Increased percentage, or maybe 0ct, and increase the cost a bit, maybe to 100? Because I think as is they are never used.
Title: Re: Discord Discussion
Post by: Gaignun on May 02, 2016, 09:35:28 am
Are these Discord discussions going to replace the Balance discussion thread? Concerning 1.40, there is a wealth of arguments in the Balance thread that have been thought out and reasoned by many people over the course of nearly two years. It would feel a little regrettable to jettison it.
Title: Re: Discord Discussion
Post by: Reks on May 02, 2016, 09:51:04 am
Quote from: Gaignun on May 02, 2016, 09:35:28 am Are these Discord discussions going to replace the Balance discussion thread? Concerning 1.40, there is a wealth of arguments in the Balance thread that have been thought out and reasoned by many people over the course of nearly two years. It would feel a little regrettable to jettison it.
Discord just seems like it's been for active discussion, rather than slowly doing stuff over time.
I do agree that stuff shouldn't just be jettisoned, though.
Title: Re: Discord Discussion
Post by: silentkaster on May 02, 2016, 10:07:45 am
I think Hi-potion's JP cost does not need changing. It feels balanced as is.
I don't think I like the idea of changing Grand Cross's AoE, don't know about the MP cost or vertical tollerance though. It seems fine as is.
I don't know what "sticky targeting" means. If the CT for Reraise gets reduced to 0, I perceive a problem as a unit gets up and reraises itself instantly could be a bit OP.
Hawk's Eye loosing poison makes sense, and adding Darkness instead could work thematically at least.
Leg Aim inflicting Stop instead of Don't Move makes no sense.
Weapon Break is fine as is. Weapon Steal makes less sense to me.
Wave Fist loosing Wind element does make sense. It was always a non-elemental move and I think it works better as non-elemental.
Protect/Shell giving any healing at all does not make sense.
Dia should not be AoE at all, but 6 range could work, though I think it's fine as is.
Fire adding Oil has never made sense to me, especially since Oil boosts all elements and not just fire. I would advocate changing Oil to only boosting Fire like in the original game. Maybe make a different effect that boosts all/other elements?
Haste/Slow should be changed because as is they are never used. Reduce the CT, MP cost, JP cost, and increase the percentage of success, an improvement of some kind at least should be made I think.
I don't see the need to change any of the Summon Magic. Making Salamander non-elemental makes no sense. Fairy healing more would be too OP. Carbunkle being free to cast would be broken.
In conclusion I would like to say that change for the sake of change is pointless, even harmful. Changes should only be made in the pursuit of gameplay balance. Once things are solidified in a balanced way they should remain unchanged. Maybe FFT Arena can grow into a competitive scene with $$ tournaments. I'd like to see that, and constantly changing things doesn't help that because it changes the way the game is played and forces people to learn the new mechanics which can hinder the advancement of understanding the mechanics. It takes time, years in fact, to gain mastery level understanding of advanced strategies and tactics which advances the metagame of competitive play. So I don't like resetting that advancement unless it's essential.
Zotis, there are many reasons that we have proposed certain ideas. Let me tell you that something that I thought could get finished in the course of a night or two has turned into a discussion going back and forth on ideas for three nights and counting. We aren't even close to being done...we haven't discussed all the classes yet (which is where we started) let alone all the ideas. Some ideas for abilities and items have taken a half hour or longer on just one ability or item alone. We're not taking any of this lightly.
For example, regarding Hi-potion, you said "It feels balanced as is." However, the reason that we are proposing lowering the JP cost is because X-Potion is now 130 HP straight healing. In order to break even with Hi-Potion, you need to have a unit with at least 325 HP. It is hard for many units to get to 325 HP as is and as a result, hi-potion is used far less often. Why use it when it will take the spot of another item and do a minimal amount of "extra" healing than the X-Potion? This alone was probably a ten minute discussion and still gets touched upon. We will probably need to discuss it again when we get to the armors which we haven't even touched on yet.
That being said, many ideas that were initially proposed didn't make sense or I didn't agree with either until I heard reasons. Sometimes I still disagreed, sometimes I was swayed and sometimes I was so marginally on either side I was indifferent to a change. It's really helpful if you're able to join any of these conversations and while I realize that schedules are hard to line up and whatnot, joining the conversation even for a short period gives you the opportunity to realize the tone and method of these discussions and see where people are coming from.
Quote from: Gaignun on May 02, 2016, 09:35:28 am Are these Discord discussions going to replace the Balance discussion thread? Concerning 1.40, there is a wealth of arguments in the Balance thread that have been thought out and reasoned by many people over the course of nearly two years. It would feel a little regrettable to jettison it.
No. In fact, Andrew compiled a list in a thread of most, if not all the suggestions of the past two years and made it easy to access. Your name gets mentioned a lot in the discord discussions too regarding certain ideas and proposals you have made. It's also why we're posting the ideas that we came up with so that if we've overlooked something, it can be commented on or discussed. In fact, this thread should not really be used to discuss ideas and whatnot...this should only be used to coordinate discord meetings. (I only mentioned hi-potion above as an example more to show the method at which we arrived at the suggestion rather than trying to refute his argument.)
Finally guys, when ideas are posted, I again want to stress don't take them as written in stone. We will have a final proposal when all is said and done because right now, ideas are still changing quite a bit as more people weigh in and offer suggestions.
Title: Re: Discord Discussion
Post by: Barren on May 02, 2016, 12:23:33 pm
Are people going to be available for a discord discuss tomorrow night around 7 PM EST? We can pick up from where we left off from last time
Title: Re: Discord Discussion
Post by: Reks on May 02, 2016, 12:43:12 pm
Might be able to wake up in time for it, but we'll see. Sounds great, if I'd be able to.
Title: Re: Discord Discussion
Post by: silentkaster on May 02, 2016, 12:45:38 pm
Sounds good. I don't feel well today so tonight would probably not be good but tomorrow sounds fine.
Title: Re: Discord Discussion
Post by: Andrew on May 02, 2016, 04:14:34 pm
I should be able to make it for tomorrow at 7 PM EST.
Title: Re: Discord Discussion
Post by: Shintroy on May 02, 2016, 08:29:49 pm
X Potion could be 200 with Hi potion at 150.
Title: Re: Discord Discussion
Post by: Barren on May 02, 2016, 08:46:18 pm
We will get into that eventually
Title: Re: Discord Discussion
Post by: Andrew on May 03, 2016, 11:29:03 am
Discord is simply an alternate, more engaging way to propose/discuss Arena suggestions. If you can't make it to a session, don't feel like your input doesn't matter, because it still does. If you feel left out, then I'm sorry, but like Zotis did, feel free to comment on the ideas we've come up with, or submit your own in the 1.4/original discussion thread. If anything, we could do a poll to see what the best time during the day/week would be for most people and go from there; so far, we've been doing it at 7 PM EST on days that we've agreed upon. If you want some insight on how sessions usually are, then I recommend reading what silentkaster posted above. (http://ffhacktics.com/smf/index.php?topic=11344.msg215345#msg215345)
Title: Re: Discord Discussion
Post by: CT5Holy on May 03, 2016, 07:58:38 pm
Prob won't be making it today, but perhaps at some point we should couch the discussion around stuff in this post, which was a compilation / summary of a lot of prior discussion: http://ffhacktics.com/smf/index.php?topic=5431.msg211847#msg211847
Title: Re: Discord Discussion
Post by: silentkaster on May 05, 2016, 01:11:28 pm
Are we going to have another discussion soon?
Title: Re: Discord Discussion
Post by: Andrew on May 05, 2016, 03:13:04 pm
How about tomorrow night at the "usual time"? (7 PM EST) Regardless, I'll pop in tonight at the same time and see if there's enough people for a discussion or not.
Title: Re: Discord Discussion
Post by: Reks on May 05, 2016, 03:18:20 pm
You guys love to decide to have the discussions on my work nights, don't you? :P
Kidding, I know you don't plan it that way. Just my bad luck that they all seem to be planned for when I have to work. Alas.
Title: Re: Discord Discussion
Post by: Barren on May 05, 2016, 04:44:39 pm
I can make it for tomorrow. Just for a couple of hours or so. Got a staff meeting the very next morning at 7AM EST
Title: Re: Discord Discussion
Post by: silentkaster on May 05, 2016, 05:26:52 pm
I will stop by tonight along with Andrew. Friday nights can be pretty difficult for me sometimes so atm, I'm not sure I can make it tomorrow but will stop by tonight just to check if anyone is on.
Title: Re: Discord Discussion
Post by: Barren on May 06, 2016, 06:54:28 pm
Come on and hang out until we are ready to discuss!
Title: Re: Discord Discussion
Post by: Shintroy on May 06, 2016, 10:54:38 pm
Got through Long Bows and Katana today. Looking forward to making samurai units with using the attack action in mind. With Genji Helm adding SP instead of being useless, I think it's safe to say we'll see a lot more Katana + Genji Helm + Diamond Armor combinations. Something I'd never think about before.
With Mime staying at 8 sp without shield access I'll just quit mime and make highly competitive samurai teams instead, it'll be a challenge with the masamune ability possibly being nerfed
With melee samurai being a thing should Masamune really lose it's regen effect? With SP altering being out of the game I think we'll see more Yell usage combined with accumulate and focus. Wouldn't mind yell actually being instant and self cast with an mp cost tbh.
Future is looking bright for 140
Title: Re: Discord Discussion
Post by: Andrew on May 07, 2016, 12:58:29 pm
I'm available all weekend to talk. I'll pop on tonight at 7 PM EST to see if anybody's around, and the same goes for tomorrow.
Title: Re: Discord Discussion
Post by: Andrew on May 09, 2016, 07:21:14 pm
Tomorrow at 7 PM EST? Regardless, I'll pop in at that time on the days I can talk.
Title: Re: Discord Discussion
Post by: Shintroy on May 09, 2016, 09:29:00 pm
That'll work for me.
Title: Re: Discord Discussion
Post by: Barren on May 10, 2016, 06:15:09 am
I'll be around myself
Title: Re: Discord Discussion
Post by: Barren on May 12, 2016, 01:52:54 pm
Anyone want to do another discussion tonight? Or should we wait until this weekend? Tomorrow I got plans after work
Title: Re: Discord Discussion
Post by: Andrew on May 12, 2016, 03:38:48 pm
I'll pop in and see what's up.
Title: Re: Discord Discussion
Post by: Andrew on May 12, 2016, 10:33:39 pm
We managed to cover the rest today: armour, accessories and statuses; my compilation post has been updated accordingly. I'm available to talk during the entire weekend, but not so sure about next week. I'm looking forward to the next discussion: lots of rehashing, fine-tuning, and DISCORD!
Title: Re: Discord Discussion
Post by: Barren on May 13, 2016, 04:04:01 pm
What I want to know is who is going to be able to make those changes? I can try to dig up what I can find because I do recall being able to open a patch and change how reaction abilities and whatnot work. I'll have to have a look when I get time but if someone wants to do it and has the know how then by all means
Title: Re: Discord Discussion
Post by: dw6561 on May 14, 2016, 07:07:08 pm
When is the next discussion? I really want to go back over accessories and statuses since I missed that.
Title: Re: Discord Discussion
Post by: Andrew on May 14, 2016, 07:14:24 pm
Tomorrow or Monday at the usual time?
Title: Re: Discord Discussion
Post by: Barren on May 14, 2016, 08:09:14 pm
tomorrow may be better for me at least
Title: Re: Discord Discussion
Post by: Shintroy on May 15, 2016, 12:36:50 am
Would like Monday. Barren please start giving us a day in advance to discuss 140 since we do the same for you.
Title: Re: Discord Discussion
Post by: silentkaster on May 16, 2016, 11:25:43 am
Now that it's not the weekend, I can participate again. Not sure what was decided on time or whatnot, but will be sign in at 7 PM just to see if anyone is online to discuss anything.
Title: Re: Discord Discussion
Post by: silentkaster on May 16, 2016, 02:17:18 pm
Yes, I'm double posting but one thing I think we might have forgotten to discuss or at least overlooked were the maps. Some maps have a bit unfair starting positions and/or aren't used because of how they are. One example of a map I have an issue with is Besrodio's House since it has the big ball in the center, but there are others that some have mentioned. This would be something that might be nice to take a quick peek at to see if any of them can be made more balanced.
Title: Re: Discord Discussion
Post by: Andrew on May 16, 2016, 07:57:10 pm
Sorry, I arrived 45 minutes late to the Discord today, but it seems like nothing was going on anyway, so I didn't stick around. I'll leave setting the date for the next discussion up to somebody else.
Quote from: silentkaster on May 16, 2016, 02:17:18 pm Yes, I'm double posting but one thing I think we might have forgotten to discuss or at least overlooked were the maps. Some maps have a bit unfair starting positions and/or aren't used because of how they are. One example of a map I have an issue with is Besrodio's House since it has the big ball in the center, but there are others that some have mentioned. This would be something that might be nice to take a quick peek at to see if any of them can be made more balanced.
There's a version of the map without the summoning device, or whatever it's called (it's been a long time since I've played vanilla :P). I know that there's a program that can be used to modify the maps (textures, models/height, and what-not), so I guess that'd be a good place to start? Though, I think it may be a bit better to leave the map modifying discussion alone until we've gotten everything else out of the way already.
Title: Re: Discord Discussion
Post by: silentkaster on May 16, 2016, 09:51:49 pm
Sorry about that...real life got in the way tonight and I wasn't able to keep my appointment at 7 PM.
Anyway, I'd really like to try tomorrow night. Tuesday nights are perfect for me...and if you guys wouldn't mind, I think it'd be a good time to go over everything.
Who's available tomorrow? Promise I will be there as I have nothing going on.
Title: Re: Discord Discussion
Post by: Shintroy on May 17, 2016, 04:53:55 am
Make sure the next date is posted at least a day in advance.
Title: Re: Discord Discussion
Post by: Andrew on May 18, 2016, 12:58:46 pm
Last night, we focused on refining accessories, and making some tweaks to a handful of jobs, weapons, and skills. Until we go over the final draft, I think that it's best for there to be no official date for individual discussions. Instead, we can just show-up at the "usual time" (7 PM EST) every day and go from there. If you (as in anybody who's interested) can make it, that's wonderful, but if you can't, it's not the end of the world, either, for there will be other opportunities to join the discussion and chime in your thoughts.
I know that there will be those that disagree, but really, not everybody can make it to the planned days. So, I feel that this is the best compromise. Despite moving along faster than I initially thought we would, I don't see the final draft coming-up any time soon, since there are plenty of aspects that we're all divided on. We'll probably just bounce from one section of balance to another until we're finally happy with the results. After this, a set date WOULD be a lot more critical, and it's one that I'd like for the majority of us (even those that haven't been a part of Discord thus far) to participate in.
Discord has been a blast thus far, and if you can make it / want to discuss live with us, then please do so! Don't be shy! Sometimes, there's only a few of us; other times, there's 6 or more of us, so the discussion intensity can vary greatly. On average, a discussion can last between a couple of hours to several hours, depending on how in-depth we get. Seriously, if you can show-up, then show-up! I'll pop-in tonight and see who's around.
Title: Re: Discord Discussion
Post by: Barren on May 18, 2016, 01:30:19 pm
I did get a glimpse of the helmets again. Looks like it's adding strengthen holy, earth, and water? Might be interesting since it can be used in multiple ways
Title: Re: Discord Discussion
Post by: Barren on May 19, 2016, 10:17:43 am
I know I wasn't around these last couple of discussions but I am around tonight if anyone wants to be on discord
Title: Re: Discord Discussion
Post by: Andrew on May 19, 2016, 07:33:12 pm
Myself, CT5, dw6561, silentkaster, and WKW are on Discord right now, Barren. Sign in!
Title: Re: Discord Discussion
Post by: silentkaster on May 23, 2016, 12:48:15 pm
Hey guys, we are going through the final draft at a pretty decent pace. If we have five or more members on, we're able to really tackle stuff and have a great discussion. We generally sign in at 7 PM EST each night so if you're ever free, come join us there at that time and see if anyone is around.
However, I would really like to start getting GENERAL schedules together. What days are you USUALLY available and what days are you not? After this final draft, we are going to have the "set in stone" changes where all questions will be answered and work can actually begin on implementing the changes we talk about. We will want to schedule this with enough time so everyone can make themselves available and be able to participate. If we can get everyone's times that they're normally available for a period to do this, we can set a date and time where the "set in stone" discussions can take place. We are not yet done with the final draft so please continue to join in when you can for now, but if you could post or PM the best days and times for you to discuss, that would be great so when we do set a date, your schedule is taken into account. We don't want to exclude anyone so we will work around your schedule. Thanks all.
Title: Re: Discord Discussion
Post by: CT5Holy on May 23, 2016, 01:53:32 pm
Tuesday ~7 PM EST, Friday whole day for sure; Thursday, Saturday, Sunday generally available starting around ~8 PM EST (depends on Lab Mayhem meeting times)
Title: Re: Discord Discussion
Post by: Andrew on May 23, 2016, 02:26:17 pm
I'm still game for the 7 PM EST we've been going with since the beginning, but I'm willing to change things up. Late evening (EST) would be the best for me, with usually any day of the week being okay (at least, for the foreseeable future).
Title: Re: Discord Discussion
Post by: dw6561 on May 23, 2016, 03:50:04 pm
If it's going to be anytime soon, I wouldn't be able to participate on the 28th or 29th at all because of a family trip. Then, my summer classes begin on the 31st or something. Thus, the weekends would be the best days for me to discuss anything after that date. Around 6 PM CST (7 PM EST) works for me.
Title: Re: Discord Discussion
Post by: Barren on May 23, 2016, 10:35:28 pm
Tomorrow at 7pm sounds good to me
Title: Re: Discord Discussion
Post by: Reks on May 24, 2016, 03:33:47 am
I only get off Wednesday and Thursday nights.
That and I rarely wake up at (for what is) 6 in the morning for me, so I probably won't make it to any of the planned ones.
Don't hold off just on my end, though. I rarely have anything to add.
Title: Re: Discord Discussion
Post by: Andrew on May 26, 2016, 10:57:19 am
Anybody up for a lengthy discussion sometime within the next four days? I'd like for there to be at least five people attending before we continue onwards with the final draft.
Title: Re: Discord Discussion
Post by: Barren on May 26, 2016, 01:20:26 pm
I got nothing tonight so I'm in
Title: Re: Discord Discussion
Post by: silentkaster on May 26, 2016, 02:31:55 pm
Tonight I can probably do, tomorrow no, not sure about Saturday/Sunday atm but usually weekends are tough.
Title: Re: Discord Discussion
Post by: CT5Holy on May 27, 2016, 01:03:01 am
Can't make it tomorrow (Friday), Saturday, or Monday. Sunday unsure. As always, don't worry about me making it or not (until the final final draft i guess)
Title: Re: Discord Discussion
Post by: Barren on May 28, 2016, 11:16:50 am
If anyone is free tonight we can go for another discussion. Same time as usual?
Title: Re: Discord Discussion
Post by: Andrew on May 28, 2016, 01:00:25 pm
Sure, I'll be there tonight at the usual time.
EDIT: It only ended-up being Barren and I, and we just talked about random Arena stuff. So, how about Monday at 7 PM EST for the next discussion?
Title: Re: Discord Discussion
Post by: Andrew on May 30, 2016, 04:02:16 pm
If less than five show-up tonight, then perhaps we could try for tomorrow at 7 PM EST?
EDIT: Scratch that, tonight is a no-go for me. If there's still a substantial amount of people online, then carry on with the discussion and just add what I missed to my compilation thread.
Title: Re: Discord Discussion
Post by: dw6561 on May 30, 2016, 06:32:58 pm
Tonight may be the only time I can discuss until next weekend...
Title: Re: Discord Discussion
Post by: silentkaster on May 31, 2016, 09:44:19 am
With Holiday weekend activities, I was unable to make it much at all...I tried to pop in randomly at different points in the day but it wasn't working for me.
In any case, can make it tonight if anyone will be around.
Title: Re: Discord Discussion
Post by: Barren on May 31, 2016, 10:43:37 am
I know I'll be around.
Title: Re: Discord Discussion
Post by: Andrew on May 31, 2016, 06:19:03 pm