FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread

[Fantactic1316]

Suggestion: Take the vert off of Masamune and give it to Haste. Masamune would be significantly less broken at zero vert and Haste would look a bit more appealing by comparison if it had at least 1 vert.

[RavenOfRazgriz]

Lemme know when there's a MP only damaging weapon thnx

Lol I forgot to reply to this.

We're adding 3 STRICTLY BETTER WEAPONS, we went over this in IRC.

POST.

@Wild Blow: It trades being evadable with having highly unreliable damage output.  It should have a noticeable MP cost so that it's not easily spammed but otherwise, that's the main reason.

@Transfusion: A lot more units have good MA than good HP.  Good MA is also more likely to win a game than good HP on average.  You also forget that Transfusion already has a cost in HP that requires both Regen and Move-HP UP to be stacked together to offset since it doesn't heal the caster, another disadvantage it has against Murasame.  It is already far more build-dependent than Murasame, and its only real bonus is being ally-only targeted, which is only meagerly useful.  Even if you weaken Murasame, it is still far better and generally more usable than Transfusion.  Removing the MP cost from Transfusion makes it a bit more level to Murasame (if only a tiny bit, Murasame is still leagues better for the most part) and lets Paladins use it with MP-screwing their other skills due to their low MP totals.

@Geomancy: The stats of Geomancer are irrelevant because the best Geomancy users aren't Geomancers, they're Bards/Dancers.  The stats on Geomancer handle the class not sucking but don't do anything about the skillset.

@Nameless Song: Technically removing Haste makes it weaker, because Haste is still one of the best buffs to get from it.  The reason Haste is removed is to stop the AI from doing NOTHING BUT Nameless Song, which is how it currently operates.  And when the AI is shitting both Haste and Reraise onto people like candy... those teams still don't win.  Partially because the asshole with Nameless Song won't stop singing, but still.  You highly overrate this one.  Reraise becomes more common, but the lack of Hasting makes this a dubious benefit.  The main benefit will be Nameless Song using teams will actually have units that can be more than Nameless Song bots.

@Poison: I say "Antidote" as a joke. -.-  Chemist actually gets weaker from this, because now you'll need to spend even more JP on the Item skillset itself to get Antidote, forego Antidote, or forego something else, and if you DO get Antidote, you get to deal with the AI randomly throwing Antidotes when it should be doing other stuff.  If anything, the Esuna / Stigma Magic / Regen users are the ones who gain the most here, because they can handle the threat without additional investment or risky AI derps.

@Magic Guns: You merely proposed a huge pile of debuffs to Magic Guns beyond the WP decrements, when it wasn't Magic Guns that were even the issue, merely an interaction between one Gun and one skill that's fixed by a simple WP and proc adjustment.  If anything, the other uses of Magic Guns need buffs if anything - which is the other thing the 100% Tier 3 + 13-12-11 WP setup does, buffs their far weaker uses while making their one problematic one about on par with other weapons.

@Bow Gun: No... I mean a 50% Armor Break proc has a lower net chance to hit the target than a 19% Shellbust Stab proc because Armor Break with a Bow Gun has a terrible hit rate.  It's essentially a 15-20% proc after you compute Armor Break's hit rate, that then becomes a Double Shot weapon afterward, which isn't a big deal due to Bow Gun's low WP.

@Undead: Not talking about status interactions, nope.

@Nerfing: I'm just pointing out back when I decided to give Arena a look over (1.32ish?), it was a quagmire of things in the opposite direction - everything sucked, and I was able to make an essentially unbeatable team out of what were otherwise the worst items and abilities in Arena.  DERP is still really high up there in part because I'm not a fucking idiot and it abuses Speed ties, interactions, has tons of contingency plans, etc., but each version makes it harder and harder for teams like that to win v the entire field - because the entire field is becoming less and less of a quagmire of shit in terms of both teams and classes/equipment.  In a PVP game like Arena, one of the most important things is to allow a large number of strategies either competitive validity or the illusion of competitive validity, which are both much more easily obtained by pulling the bottom up than by pulling the top down, so to speak.  The latter is honestly what's most prone to making a 1-strategy metagame.


All that finally said, I've three (technically 4) equipment related suggestions:

@Sprint Shoes: +1 Move +1 Speed oh god no.  For someone who likes to nerfstick so much, you must realize how ridiculous that is.

About 19%, here's legit question, why not just change proc chance to 25%? I mean this would boost elements and a lot other skills.

Most procs are 25% now if you thumb through the Master Guide.  Note it's usually only the best-of-the-best procs like Holy that still fall in at 19%. 

Dia vs ninjutsu ton's(Meiton etc.)
Dia is a skill that has basically just different damage modifiers then ton's, so why does Dia have lower Y then ton's? I personally would have Dia and ton's with 9-8 Y so they would not make too little amount of damage, and not too high.

It's the difference in magic users vs physical users mostly.  MA stacks higher than PA naturally due to how their abilities work (which is why MA*WP weapons generally have slightly lower WP than PA*WP ones), so MA*6*Faith is going to be better than PA*6*Faith always simply because the MA version can do more damage.  Though, it's more because the instant, single-target damage like Ninjitsu just isn't what mages do.  Dia serves its own purpose (especially with being moved into the Priest's skillset) by being a magician's means of anti-sandbag and a source of Blind that can greatly increase their lifespan against melee units, but it's not equal to Ninjitsu because it's not meant to serve the same purpose.  Intentional lack of parity.  Same reason a spell like Comet only does 100 damage.

Suggestion: Take the vert off of Masamune and give it to Haste. Masamune would be significantly less broken at zero vert and Haste would look a bit more appealing by comparison if it had at least 1 vert.

Giving some vert to the Haste spells is more than reasonable.  They're not terrible, but they're not super leet awesome.

[Avalanche]

i just want to share my concern with ninjitsu spells like fuiton  and meiton.

I realy disslike an instant very high dmg/recovery spell that even allows a decend amount of evasion/Hp.

Plus i disslike the symbiosis with innocence

[Pierce]

I'm not a big fan of Nurse adding Regen instead of healing. Nor am I a fan of Life Song adding Regen. At the moment with Masamune being so popular and so frequently used by the AI, Regen is quite common. Yes I know Masamune is seeing a nerf, but that won't stop it from still being used somewhat frequently (Instant 100% Haste and Regen, why not?). Adding 2 more skills that add Regen is just going to make it annoyingly common.
Also, it's not like Nurse needs a change right now. And life song heals less than 60HP per turn (assuming the song goes off twice before the unit acts) and the unit is forced to be performing in that time, losing their evasion.

I'm also not really a big fan of Weak:Element from shields. I mean c'mon, it's a shield, it should really only be helping you, not potentially hurting you.

Is it possible that Esuna gets its JP cost dropped to 250? I know people have been saying they would like to see more status healing instead of relying on Raise2 to heal the unit (I think it was FDC that said this). Dropping the JP cost by 30 makes it an even 250 and makes it an easier addition to a team.

Did someone say Concentrate is coming back? Why... there's already Transparent...

These are just my two cents.

[Fantactic1316]

Did someone say Concentrate is coming back? Why... there's already Transparent...

Ew, I hope not. In addition to Transparent there are also Guns. Not to mention half a dozen magic-based ways to get around evasion if one is determined to avoid that particular bit of RNG.

And I have an off-the-wall suggestion: Could crystals heal status in addition to restoring HP and MP? If you can completely drop and crystalize a unit in an Arena match, you've earned a bit of a reward. And it'd be neat to see units recover from something like Silence or Blind and get back into a competitive match. Just a thought.

[RavenOfRazgriz]

I'm not a big fan of Nurse adding Regen instead of healing.

It's not "instead of", it's "in addition to".  It also gains Regen because Magicward and Iron Will are being merged into a single move that adds Protect/Shell with no Regen, so that the Paladin still has access to Regen but on a skill that's far better for adding it.  Magicward/Iron Will are currently used terrbily by the AI (they will actually use them over Nurse when at Critical HP, it's so bad), making them basically unusable.  It's a small buff to Nurse, making Magicward and Iron Will into one skill the AI will actually use somewhat competently, and leaving the number of skills that add Regen exactly the same (-Magicward, -Iron Will, +Nurse, +Life Song), the skills that add it just suck less and are used properly by the AI.  This is again the same with Life Song - no effect of Life Song is lost, it adds Regen at a 25% rate in addition to healing.  FDC's shorthand just sucks.

Is it possible that Esuna gets its JP cost dropped to 250? I know people have been saying they would like to see more status healing instead of relying on Raise2 to heal the unit (I think it was FDC that said this). Dropping the JP cost by 30 makes it an even 250 and makes it an easier addition to a team.

We discussed this in IRC a bit, so, really, I need to bug FFMaster but what I think needs to happen here is -

Antidote, 50 JP.
Eye Drop, 50 JP.
Echo Grass, 50 JP.

Esuna, 200 JP.
Regen, 50 JP.
Protect, 50 JP.
Shell, 50 JP.

(Personal onion, Raise 2 should probably be "raised" [hyuk hyuk] to 250 or 300 JP, but that's another matter entirely.)

(I would say Ice, 50 JP, but Ice is being switched out for Ice 2 Back, which'd be 100 JP.)
Ice 2, 100 JP.
Ice 3, 150 JP.
Ice 4, 200 JP.

Haste, 100 JP.
Slow, 100 JP.

Blind, 100 JP.

Bio 2, 200 JP.

The random not-a-multiple-of-50 values aren't helping anyone and are just annoying to deal with.  The only skills listed here that have them for reasons other than "Vanilla Derp" are the Ice series of spells, and they're not good enough to essentially cost 50 more JP than their contemporary spells.  Being economical is not that big of a boon when you consider all of the trio have their own unique perk.  It's pointless and just another reason not to use Wizards since part of their skillset is rather randomly overpriced with no real reason to be. All it really is, is an annoyance, because there's no difference between 60 and 100, 120 and 150, etc. unless you're using some of the random other skills like Esuna that suffer from "Vanilla Derp" JP costs for no reason - and again, those skills don't deserve to cost 50 more than their contemporaries.  This would also fix one of FDC's big complaints about people just letting their units die and get hit with Raise 2 instead of using Esuna - Esuna wouldn't cost 100 more JP than goddamn Raise 2, and hopefully will cost less than Raise 2 does.

Did someone say Concentrate is coming back? Why... there's already Transparent...

Transparent as a status that can be added from skills isn't used correctly by the AI, neither by the person applying or by the person it is applied to, because they incorrectly think they are invincible or that it adds invincibility through being, well, invisible.  Transparent that is Initial from an item has the same issue described for a unit equipping that kind of item.  (Specifically, the unit that had Transparent applied to them won't attack because they think attacking will remove their invincibility, unless they're going for a kill shot or something.  Basically, the AI behaves very oddly and poorly because they think Acting will remove invincibility from enemies.)  Transparent that is Always makes the unit more aggressive than usual because again, they think they're invincible little shits, but when you do something like Hidden Knife + Platina Dagger, you want that behavior anyway, so it's more of a positive bug than anything.  Concentrate itself at a 650 JP cost for a unit that's otherwise not using the Squire class, and most units don't have enough evasion to really make it worth using over Attack UP.  It helps if you want a dedicated anti-healer to break things like Main Gauche Chemists/Mediators that aren't Ninjas though.

[The Damned]

(Well, I guess we'll never see Shintroy again then.)

I can get behind Haste actually getting some vertical--I keep forgetting it doesn't since I pretty much never use it even when I use Time Magic--and Masamune losing it. I'm assuming Masamune would still keep its Haste & Regen, though, and that this would be in addition to becoming linear like formerdeathcorps proposed.

@Wild Blow: It trades being evadable with having highly unreliable damage output.  It should have a noticeable MP cost so that it's not easily spammed but otherwise, that's the main reason.

Then we ultimately agree. I just wasn't comfortable with it both being unavoidable and being that cheap and instant, as I mentioned, given that's the exact same thing that happened with early Ninjutsu, which is still pretty damn powerful. While we should be aiming to improve as many things as possible, we should also be aiming to avoid the same mistakes.

@Transfusion: A lot more units have good MA than good HP.  Good MA is also more likely to win a game than good HP on average. You also forget that Transfusion already has a cost in HP that requires both Regen and Move-HP UP to be stacked together to offset since it doesn't heal the caster, another disadvantage it has against Murasame. It is already far more build-dependent than Murasame, and its only real bonus is being ally-only targeted, which is only meagerly useful.  Even if you weaken Murasame, it is still far better and generally more usable than Transfusion.  Removing the MP cost from Transfusion makes it a bit more level to Murasame (if only a tiny bit, Murasame is still leagues better for the most part) and lets Paladins use it with MP-screwing their other skills due to their low MP totals.

I didn't forget that. I was merely saying that Murasame doesn't completely obviate it as you seemed to be implying even on units with such things. Otherwise, you have points I suppose, so I guess I can get behind it taking no MP, even if the ally-only thing will probably bug me considering Paladins usually have Regen or Move-HP Up as it is.... However, that's more a personal POV that I honestly would like to see end up being unfounded if it allows it to see more use without becoming obnoxiously overpowering.

@Geomancy: The stats of Geomancer are irrelevant because the best Geomancy users aren't Geomancers, they're Bards/Dancers.  The stats on Geomancer handle the class not sucking but don't do anything about the skillset.

Never said that Geomancers were the best at using their own skillset or that stats would make them the best; merely that stats were an improvement to them using Geomancy, which they always would be since there's little other reason to use Geomancers. Still, even if Bards and Dancers are better than Geomancers are using Geomancy and will continue to be, if by a lesser margin, Geomancers at least get to do other things with their Secondary, like potentially get resurrection to use. Last time Geomancers were the best at using their own class, things were unfortunately...messy, though I think part of it was because Geomancy was still unavoidable back then.

@Nameless Song: Technically removing Haste makes it weaker, because Haste is still one of the best buffs to get from it.  The reason Haste is removed is to stop the AI from doing NOTHING BUT Nameless Song, which is how it currently operates.  And when the AI is shitting both Haste and Reraise onto people like candy... those teams still don't win.  Partially because the asshole with Nameless Song won't stop singing, but still.  You highly overrate this one.  Reraise becomes more common, but the lack of Hasting makes this a dubious benefit.  The main benefit will be Nameless Song using teams will actually have units that can be more than Nameless Song bots.

Oh, I know losing Haste makes it weaker. I just really dislike Reraise, as I've said before. If it wasn't for the AI whoring Haste (and Slow), then even as much as you think I "love" nerfing things, I'd still rather Haste be on Nameless Song than Reraise even after having agreed to the suggestion about Poison persisting beyond death. Oh well, perhaps Poison (and Dispel Magic and new Spellbreak) will be enough combined with how seldom the AI actively uses Reraise, Protect or Shell for this to not be as potentially bad as I expect, but I guess we'll just have to see.

@Poison: I say "Antidote" as a joke. -.-  Chemist actually gets weaker from this, because now you'll need to spend even more JP on the Item skillset itself to get Antidote, forego Antidote, or forego something else, and if you DO get Antidote, you get to deal with the AI randomly throwing Antidotes when it should be doing other stuff.  If anything, the Esuna / Stigma Magic / Regen users are the ones who gain the most here, because they can handle the threat without additional investment or risky AI derps.

I was aware of that. I was merely stating how I don't want Item to have be even more depended upon than it already is, especially since, despite requiring slightly more investment, Antidote is pretty damn cheap at 70 JP; not that it should be more, it's just doesn't seem like it's going to make people be forced to drop something on Chemist that they would otherwise use as you seem to be implying.

Esuna and Stigma Magic benefiting doesn't make me feel much better either to be honest, but oh well. At least maybe Regen, Squire's Heal and the Poison-blocking equipment will see more use now, though Regen was at least used semi-frequently unlike those last two.

@Magic Guns: You merely proposed a huge pile of debuffs to Magic Guns beyond the WP decrements, when it wasn't Magic Guns that were even the issue, merely an interaction between one Gun and one skill that's fixed by a simple WP and proc adjustment.  If anything, the other uses of Magic Guns need buffs if anything - which is the other thing the 100% Tier 3 + 13-12-11 WP setup does, buffs their far weaker uses while making their one problematic one about on par with other weapons.

Uh, where? I literally only talked about actual guns twice in my original reply to formerdeathcorps where I a) agreed with his/your magickal gun nerfs and said that, without knowing what the average was (becoming), I'd probably go with the slightly lower WP (because the guns would still be unavoidable without Projectile Guard) and b) where I said that all guns probably shouldn't be able to be used with the shields. The second proposal was less about magickal guns--I'd be lying if I wasn't thinking about them, though--and more about how you shouldn't be able to have that much range with unavoidable attacks and still be able to give yourself extra-evasion and boosts with a free hand, at least innately.

That applies to Romanda Gun, Mythril Gun (not that anyone ever really uses the thing) and Stone Gun as well. It just seems really backwards to allow guns to use shields while at the same time having the less powerful, less accurate, less versatile and not-as-far reaching longbows to all be forced to be two-hands, which is part of the reason they currently suck and are barely used compared to guns. So unless you're talking about how I wanted the lesser WP for the magickal guns of the two integers offered, I really don't know what you're on about with this "huge pile" of debuffs.

@Bow Gun: No... I mean a 50% Armor Break proc has a lower net chance to hit the target than a 19% Shellbust Stab proc because Armor Break with a Bow Gun has a terrible hit rate.  It's essentially a 15-20% proc after you compute Armor Break's hit rate, that then becomes a Double Shot weapon afterward, which isn't a big deal due to Bow Gun's low WP.

Oh, okay then. I can agree with that.

@Undead: Not talking about status interactions, nope.

Hmmm...I guess I'll still have to think about it then.

@Nerfing: I'm just pointing out back when I decided to give Arena a look over (1.32ish?), it was a quagmire of things in the opposite direction - everything sucked, and I was able to make an essentially unbeatable team out of what were otherwise the worst items and abilities in Arena.  DERP is still really high up there in part because I'm not a fucking idiot and it abuses Speed ties, interactions, has tons of contingency plans, etc., but each version makes it harder and harder for teams like that to win v the entire field - because the entire field is becoming less and less of a quagmire of shit in terms of both teams and classes/equipment.  In a PVP game like Arena, one of the most important things is to allow a large number of strategies either competitive validity or the illusion of competitive validity, which are both much more easily obtained by pulling the bottom up than by pulling the top down, so to speak.  The latter is honestly what's most prone to making a 1-strategy metagame.

I mostly agree with that philosophy.

I just don't think it's as straightforward as it could be, unfortunately, with the restriction of the (current) AI being in charge and everything being proposed to happen at all once. If this was basically what Tethical is aiming to be with actual people in charge of their own teams and/or happening in waves rather than one tsunami of changes at once, then I'd likely to be able to readily get behind a hell of a lot more/not be so cautious. I really don't think nerfing "works" as much as you seem to be getting the impression that I do, but I'm sure as hell going to get more and more cautious with the more things that want to be changed for reasons that don't seem as readily clear to me as they do to you; it's only natural.

As such, keep in mind that I'm not the only person who, when looking at formerdeathcorps'/your list, only sees a list of things to change without any reasons as to why.

All that finally said, I've three (technically 4) equipment related suggestions:

@Sprint Shoes: +1 Move +1 Speed oh god no.  For someone who likes to nerfstick so much, you must realize how ridiculous that is.

 
Sigh. Ignoring the bold, yes, I do; admittedly I perhaps don't think it's as "ridiculous" as you seem to be implying, though you know you're more than welcome to enlighten me as long as you avoid being condescending. I said that should be done for Sasuke Knife's sake (and even then it's quite arguable for a couple reasons) because I'm not sure FFMaster even has any Item Attribute space left to try to improve Sasuke Knife (or some other pieces of equipment that really need it). I'm at loss as how to do that as it is, especially if it has to continue sharing with Sprint Shoes. Would +1 Jump instead of +1 Move be acceptable? What do you think Sasuke Knife would need for improvement, even as relatively unimportant as it is, if "we" are really trying to push as many valid strategies and choices as possible?

[dacheat]

Have y'all ever thought of implementing a move that could crystallize dead units (maybe this is the new purpose of execute)? It would obviously only work on dead units, and it should probably have a CT so that the enemy has a chance to revive the unit or disable (kill, berserk, or otherwise) the caster.

I'm not sure how the AI would handle such an ability though.

[The Damned]

(Sigh. That last post had quite a few typos I missed in my initial once. Apologies, Raven.)

Ugh. I have a rather sizeable headache right now, but I figure I might as well answer this before I go back out to do more chores.

Have y'all ever thought of implementing a move that could crystallize dead units (maybe this is the new purpose of execute)? It would obviously only work on dead units, and it should probably have a CT so that the enemy has a chance to revive the unit or disable (kill, berserk, or otherwise) the caster.

I'm not sure how the AI would handle such an ability though.

The AI would probably handle it well.

The primary problem is, though, that with current formulas, which are mostly still the original ones, we are completely unable to do that. You'd have to make a formula akin to Seal Evil's (and Consecrate's), except that instead of only working on the Undead, it would only work on the Dead. There might be other ways to do it, but would doubtless be the easiest, especially since we can't use two different Inflict Status Codes, i.e. Cancel Dead (to only target the dead) and Add Crystal (add Crystal to them).

That said, with the proposed change to Poison, this also shouldn't be necessary at all.

P.S. It is impossible for overkill-damage to add Instant Crystal. If that were possible, then it would pop-up a lot and most people would probably actually avoid using Phoenix Down (and Wish) because of it. Execute being proposed to do "double damage" to the Critical is for...other reasons.

[dacheat]

Is there a way to cast something like quick on a dead unit to make them immediately take their "turn" and make the counter go down?

[The Damned]

(Ugh. Still haven't left yet, so....)

Not really sure why you're insist about this, but to answer your question, no.

Again, you'd have to make up a formula that specifically targets the Dead. It should possibly be easier since you could use the formula for Reis's Dragon Power Up (or whatever it was that "gave" Quick to dragons) and just make the requirement that unit has to have Dead status rather than be ID'd as a "Dragon".

That said, as interesting as suggestion is it is, for ARENA, it would likely be quite useless. Most resurrection happens before the counter even hits 2, much less 1. You're better just building "anti-healer" units, which again letting Poison persist past death allows. Still intriguing to think about though....

[RavenOfRazgriz]

(Well, I guess we'll never see Shintroy again then.)

Apparently adding 3 weapons that are strictly better than the weapon he wants while doing the exact same thing along with a Crossbow that adds Silence isn't good enough, I guess.

@Chemists/Antidote: Most people spend all 3000 of their JP, unless they're silly.  70 JP is essentially 100 JP unless using other oddly-costed skills like Echo Grass, so you very likely will need to drop /something/... and then you've ultimately got a skill that does nothing but Cancel Poison with nothing else.  Yay.  I'm more just pointing out that all the non-Item sources of anti-Poison are just outright better in general, and this Poison edit directly HURTS Phoenix Down users, so Item is being damaged quite a bit via this change. not helped.

@Guns: That's the debuff I'm talking about.  Notice that Longbows are being buffed, again, and Crossbows are getting buffed, and Guns are getting nothing but a debuff on bad interactions and maybe a slight buff in net Attack damage on the ones that require you run 70 Faith and have more risk to them.  When a class like Archer can access multiple weapon types, it's common for one type to be the go-to and the rest kinda be secondary, especially when each weapon type follows design trends as they (usually) do in Arena. In this case, Guns are primary, Longbows and Crossbows are secondary, but like I noted - the weaker end (Crossbows and Longbows) is being buffed, and the main thing that makes Guns leet awesome (Kagesougi Gunning) is being addressed.  Shore up the bottom value instead of undercutting the top line.  Longbows probably need more buffing than what FDC suggests though, but I need to run their numbers more.  They probably need higher WP rivaling Books and such, though, even though the stronger procs will also help.  But that's a problem with Longbows being inferior, when you stop to realize the Gun users (Kagesougi Gunners aside) aren't ruining the game, the Longbow users just can't keep up - so help them keep up, don't trip someone whose not damaging the game and risk ending up with both sucking instead of just one of them.

@only sees a list of things to change without any reasons as to why. - FDC kind of spontaneously posted.  I don't know why he did.  There is a reason I am out here fielding all the concerns that get raised since he decided to shit out a barely readable shorthand list that's of dubious use even if you DO know the goddamn context. I'll re-compile the changelog with actual explanations sometime later.
 
@Sasuke Knife: I personally think the weapon should just be scrapped and redone entirely.  Hidden Knife does everything you'd want Sasuke Knife to do unless you don't run Two Swords, which is fairly rare when it comes to Ninjato and Dagger users.  I can think of a couple defensive Thief builds where Sasuke Knife is better, but there's essentially two weapons in the same weapon group competing for the same design space.  I'd rather kill it and come up with a completely new idea.  It's not like most Ninjato have tons of flair so there's plenty of design space to work with in that regard.

@Condescending: I am always smug, arrogant, and condescending.  Where have you been? :V

[The Damned]

(His loss. You know how people are never satisfied.)

Ugh. Meant to reply to this last night, but Firefox (and my body) acted up on me yet again. I'm noticing a pattern here. I need to start using Opera since Chrome is apparently crap on this computer, but I digress.

EVEN THOUGH YOU'RE RIGHT ABOVE ME AGAIN.

@Chemists & Antidote (The Item, Not the FFT Track): I suppose so. Despite reconsidering the Poison thing as above, I hadn't considered how much it screws over Phoenix Down, only Wish. Still not sure it has as much impact even given the tendency to spend all 3000 JP, though normalizing all costs to be divisible by 50 will definitely help with that; even if you are suggesting further decreasing Antidote to be a mere 50, making Raise 2 more expensive is definitely something I can get behind.

@Guns: Oh, okay. So that's what you meant. I got confused when you said "huge pile" since, as I said, I only mentioned it twice. I can see what you're saying a lot more clearly now. While still think it might need to be measure that needs to be taken even with Kagesougi's most blatant problem already being taken care of, I can handle holding off for the same reason that I conceded about Wizard's points: potentially too many changes at once. As such, I would agree that Longbows probably need to strengthened more, though at this point they've had more attention paid to them than some other less than stellar weapons categories (Katana, Poles, Bags, etc.).

@only sees a list of things to change without any reasons as to why.: Oh, I wouldn't say what formerdeathcorps did was entirely bad. I think he wanted to put the list out for public comment because not everyone goes to chat, among other things. It's that that many changes, without much context besides the other things that are being changed and any further explanation of WHY (and sometimes a lack of clarity, as with "de-cancel" or features that are additions rather than replacements), are inevitably going to be confusing in some aspects. But, hey, you're here.
 
@Sasuke Knife: Agreed. I still Hidden Knife doesn't need that Speed +1 at all, but it can keep Always: Transparent (for now). Sasuke Knife probably just needs to die (and be redesigned) since there's absolutely nothing redeeming about it (like at least three of Katana).

@Condescending: Shrug. I guess I'm just used to if you are given the nature of the Internet and humanity. That and/or you're one of the few condescending people who tends to know what the fuck he's talking about rather than some arrogant twat who is in reality some vacuous buffoon.

[Fantactic1316]

Suggestion: Equipment with Always: Regen should gain Cancel: Poison. Regen cancels Poison in other instances, but things like the Light Robe get screwed up by Poison. Regen can't override the Poison because Regen still can't be cast on the unit, even though the Poison has cancelled it out. Just a small little complaint.

On the topic of Poison, I don't like the idea of it persisting past death. It makes one simple status effectively cancel Phoenix Down, Wish, and all forms of Reraise. I'm not a fan.

[Gaignun]

While I appreciate the buff to poison, having it persist is going to make Raise and 0 CT healing even more popular.  I understand that you want poison to deny Phoenix Down's use, but I think there are already means of doing so.  These means include guns, geomancy, and concentrated physicals (if Concentrate comes back).  Adding poison as another mean is all fine and well, but it will add too much collateral damage.  Fantactic raises a good point: wish and reraise will also suffer.   Relying on healing with CT (ie. any "X Magic") is going to be a lot less effective, too.  This means that the few people who haven't already run to 0 CT healing - namely items, Murasame, and Punch Art - which are effective in their own right, are going to do so.

If we're going to buff poison, I propose we strengthen the one feature that makes it unique: using your opponent's max HP against him/herself.  Currently, it is negated by Move-HP UP.  Having it deal ~20% damage per turn would change that.  It would be like in Final Fantasy X.  Poison in that game was scary.

[RavenOfRazgriz]

Suggestion: Equipment with Always: Regen should gain Cancel: Poison. Regen cancels Poison in other instances, but things like the Light Robe get screwed up by Poison. Regen can't override the Poison because Regen still can't be cast on the unit, even though the Poison has cancelled it out. Just a small little complaint.

I don't see the problem with this myself - it just gives Poison a reason to see use, similar to why the other change is proposed.  Light Robe and P Bag are already respectably strong considering Regen is stronger than Move-HP UP, the Poison interaction just gives them a counter instead of making those items guarantee a long slog.

On the topic of Poison, I don't like the idea of it persisting past death. It makes one simple status effectively cancel Phoenix Down, Wish, and all forms of Reraise. I'm not a fan.

Considering many times, Phoenix Down / etc loops just extend already lost games, it again gives Poison a metagame use while shutting down teams from flailing if you choose to incorporate it into your team.  The revived unit still also gets their turn to cope with the Poison effect before dying again, and oftentimes they'll have healing or something to offset it.  The teams that end up getting put down are the ones who likely wouldn't be making a comeback anyway.

Though, if it did persist after death, Poison would likely need to regain its CT to give it some level of fairness.  Infinite duration and persistence through death is a recipe for derp, agreed.

Gonna re-post FDC's list with the stuff he forgot and some reasoning for it to give people a better idea of wtf is going on:

spoiler: Knives

Throwing Knife (Gain +33% Death Sentence)
Dual Cutters (Gain +1 WP)
Blind Knife => Pain Knife (9 WP, 2S, no2H, +1 Move, 15% W-EV, +5% Crystal)
Mage Masher (Change proc to 50% Bizen Boat)
Assassin Dagger => Katar (12 WP, no2S, no2H, +1 Move, 15% W-EV, +1 PA)

Reasoning: Throwing Knife is kind of shit, Assassin Dagger is kind of shit, this simple solution merges them together and makes room for a PA-counterpart to the Orichalcum.  Mage Masher becomes a rather powerful Dagger that deals MA*9 MP damage on a reasonable basis, which equates to 56 MP damage on a minimum MA male Chemist - fairly respectable MP damage.  Dual Cutters are kind of shitty aside from being an offhand option to Platina Dagger, a role for which it competes and usually loses to Hidden Knife over.  The extra WP is an attempt to give it a bit more oomph in competing with Hidden Knife as an offhand choice, and add extra kick to anyone running to run a pair of Dual Cutters on the same unit.  The Pain Knife is sortof a joke and likely won't make it into the final release.

spoiler: Ninjato

Spell Edge (Gain 50% Spell Absorb)

This is a simple one.  It's kind of like the Mage Masher, but has lower accuracy/MP damage in trade for replenishing the user's MP.  It gives a higher-HP, lower-MP damage option to Mage Masher while also allowing Ninjas, etc. to potentially spec MP efficiency for use with Ninjitsu, magic secondaries, etc.  While it does share some overlapping design space with Mage Masher, Mage Masher is very clear-cut "kill the enemy" where as Spell Edge is meant to be more multirole and compatible with DPS builds.

spoiler: Knight Swords

All Knight Swords (+1 WP)

A simple edit to help Knight Sword users keep up with other classes in terms of DPS, and offset the buffs to Shields that were given to continue justifying Knight Swords as competitive Two-Handed options.

spoiler: Katana

Koutetsu (Add: +1 PA)
Heaven's Cloud (Change +1 PA to Proc: 50% Slow)

Again, the thought process here is simple enough: Koutetsu Knife and Heaven's Cloud separately are kinda shitty.  Koutetsu Knife might see use in a Dark absorb team maybe but that's it, and using Heaven's Cloud is like the punchline to a bad joke considering Masamume has a better buff AND more WP.  A 50% Slow status proc is actually fairly strong considering how powerful Slow can be compared to Haste - it has half the duration, but you get the full effect a lot sooner, letting you beat the shit out of the Slowed unit rather handily if your units are in position to do so.  It can also give the Heaven's Cloud user a solid advantage in a 1v1 setting through re-proc'ing Slow over and over, making it go from a shitty joke Wind Katana to something actually threatening.

spoiler: Staves

Healing Staff (+1 WP)
Rainbow Staff (-1 WP, Remove: All Elements)[

Well, Healing Staff sucks.  Rainbow Staff at Neutral All Elements and 10 WP still hits harder than the 8 WP Wizard Staff unless you're using Two Swords with a pair of Wizard Staves together (and 1 Wizard Staff 1 Rainbow Staff should hit roughly as hard or harder than 2 Wizard Staff in terms of pure melee), so it's still a very effective weapon for your offhand if you just want a DPS stick.  The 11 WP was only to make it have HUGE damage to offset the fact it was easily absorbed, but Elements in Arena are almost TOO easy to absorb, so an ALL ELEMENT HUGE POWER weapon is just generally fucked.

spoiler: Guns

Blaze Gun (13 WP, Change proc to 100% Fire3)
Glacier Gun (12 WP, Change proc to 100% Ice3)
Blast Gun (11 WP, Change proc to 100% Bolt3)

Simply put, this fixes the issues with Kagesougi Gunners and makes Magic Guns better at actually shooting people directly and more reliable.  In this sense, it's a bit of a twofer - an abusive interaction dies, AND otherwise underpowered weapons become better.  The WP is kept high enough so that interactions between WP-referencing abilities is still usable as well, while not being OP like the current Kagesougi Gunner combo.  Since, after all, there's no reason to kill and outright make the combo unusable when it can just be placed back under control and allowed to exist as another viable strategy.

spoiler: Crossbows

Bow Gun (Change proc to 50% Armorbreak)
Cross Bow => Silencer (10 WP, +50% Silence, 4 Range, 0% W-EV)
Poison Bow (+2 WP)

As I described to The Damned earlier, that 50% chance on the Bow Gun is the chance to cast the Armor Break ability, not the chance to actually lose your armor.  Your net chance of getting your armor broken is maybe 20%, probably less, making it about as accurate as any other base-rate proc.  After that, it becomes a 50% Doubleshot weapon, reprising its original role against an enemy with weakened Max HP and making it a fair bit stronger.  As for the others, Cross Bow currently kinda sucks, so this merges Cross Bow with Poison Bow effectively, then uses the free spot for an anti-mage Crossbow, something we can more than afford to have since Crossbows are kinda eh at 10 WP and Silence is respectably healable/blockable if you want to give up specs for less risk.

spoiler: Longbows

Longbow (+2 Range)
Silver Bow (Proc: 19% Holy)
Ice Bow (Proc: 25% Stop)
Lightning Bow (Proc: 25% Don't Act)
Windslash Bow (Proc: 19% Hurricane)
Ultimus Bow (+1 PA)

[Personal addition - +1 WP all Longbows]

Well, Longbows suck.  Still.  The Longbow itself merely becomes long to offset being otherwise vanilla-y, giving the Romanda Gun more direct competition.  Ice Bow and Lightning Bow become debilitating weapons simply because otherwise, EVERY Longbow would essentially be a DPS weapon and that's kinda pointless.  Hurricane proc on the Windslash Bow (which is Wind Element 33% HP damage at middling hit rate) lets it do the proc for more DPS role of the old Ice Bow and Lightning Bow, though either the base proc rate of Hurricane needs to be raised or Hurricane needs to hit on 100% in this instance.  Ultimus Bow just becomes more raw DPS in this situation, as does the Silver Bow.  Though, honestly, these also likely need a flat +1 WP the way Knight Swords do.  They suffer from both an inferior damage formula and inferior WP... though someone will likely start bitching about Kagesougi Windslash Bow with our luck, though, despite how vastly inferior to Kagesougi Blaze Gun that would be.

spoiler: Books

Monster Dictionary (Change proc to Magic Ruin)

[Personal addition - condense WP to 15/14/13/12.]

Sinkhole proc just becomes a Magic Ruin proc to be more generally useful.  Otherwise, I've noted my other favored change, condensing their WP so that the Books ALL do relevant damage instead of just two of them, considering Books have what's likely the worst Weapon Damage formula in the entire game.

spoiler: Shields

spoiler: FDCs Version

Mythril Shield (Change to 15 / 15)
Gold Shield (Change to 25 / 5)
Ice Shield (Change to 20 / 10)
Flame Shield (Change to 20 / 10)
Diamond Shield (Change to 15 / 15)
Platina Shield (Change to 15 / 15)
Crystal Shield (Change to 20 / 20, halve/weak: all elements)
Genji Shield (Change to 10 / 5)
Venetian Plate => Glitter Shield (+1 SPD, 5 / 5)

Looking over these Shield changes again... I don't know what the fuck FDC is doing here.  Here's my version of this thing, because I find his is a terrible idea and ruins the entire driving force behind this update - promoting the M-EV stat.

spoiler: My Version

Diamond Shield (Change to 5/25)
Platina Shield (Change to 25/5)
Crystal Shield (Change to 20/20, Neutral: All Elements.)
Genji Shield (Change to 10/5)
Venetian Shield => Glitter Shield (5/5 +1 SPD)

This I find is a far better version of his general idea.  The Crystal Shield is made better and can be used to cover the weaknesses of various setups while sporting good evasion, the Genji Shield now forces you to give up Evasion for your power boost instead of giving you everything in one package.  The Venetian Shield is removed because it basically makes Wizards worthless, and the Glitter Shield is added as a typical +Stats Shield, +SPD being a nice boon for units using one-handed weapons without Two Hands such as Crossbow users, some Spear users, etc. at the cost of basically any form of evasion.

spoiler: Helmets

Gold Helmet (Change Null: Chicken to Null: Don't Move)
Genji Helmet (Chance Null: Don't Move to Initial: Berserk)

Simple changes.  Current Genji Helmet sucks and Gold Helmet has a useless defense on it, so 1 + 1 = 2.  Genji Helmet then gets to become an alternate Salty Rage for Paladins, Samurai, etc., allowing them stronger Berserking setups while Salty Rage still allows non-Armored Berserkers to exist.

spoiler: Rings and Armlets

N-Kai Armlet (Change Null: Confuse to Undead)
Jade Armlet (Change Null: Chicken to Ice)
Reflect Ring (Change Null: Silence to Berserk)
Defense Armlet (+Absorb: Fire)
Defense Ring (+8/8)

[Personal addition - Defense Armlet should Null fire and not Absorb it.  Rubber Boots and Jade Armlet don't Absorb, so neither should Defense Armlet.  This way, only secondary Elements get the privilege of being Absorbed through Accessories as a perk compared to primary Elements.]

Simply, this provides for more anti-Berserk since Berserk is slowly becoming more prevalent as a Negative status as well as a Positive one (as it is also being added to Geomancy's proc set, see below.), as well as some anti-Undead and general removal of useless anti's.

spoiler: Mantles

Small Mantle (10 / 20)
Wizard Mantle (15 / 25, Null: Don't Act)
Leather Mantle (20 / 30)
Elf Mantle (25 / 25)
Feather Mantle (30 / 20)
Dracula Mantle (25 / 15, Null: Berserk)
Vanish Mantle (20 / 10)

Basically, anti-Don't Act shifts from Dracula Mantle to Wizard Mantle, and Dracula Mantle gets anti-Zerk to replace anti-Don't Act.  In addition, all the Mantles now suck a lot less - only having gradiations of 5 instead of 6 between tiers, capping at 30 instead of 24, and having a min stat of 10 in any EV area.  This way, Mantles can be more generally usable instead of just things that are kind of there as anti-stuff with token evasion scores or part of Abandon setups.

spoiler: Squire

Remove: Cheer Up
Change: Bullrush (Change to Null: Haste)
Add: Alacrity (10 MP, +1 MA, Self, 200 JP)
Add: Wild Blow (Weapon Elemental/Range, RN{XA / 2...XA * 3 / 2} * WP, unevadable, 5 MP, 100 JP)
Add: Concentrate (400 JP)

[Personal addition - Wild Blow should cost 15-20 MP.  It is fairly strong, Instant, and Unevadable.  While it's unreliable, if it's spammable that doesn't matter because you WILL get lucky unless you only get to cast it a couple times, at which point the MP cost is moot.]

Simply, Squire gets more random things - parity with Accumulate and in turn more reason to use things like Rods, Wild Blow to give them something cool and actually solid offensively, and the return of Concentrate to offset the fact Evasion is being promoted somewhat, and because Concentrate is a rather overrated skill whose purpose in Arena can easily become relegated to allowing non-Ninja melee units to break Main Gauche healers, and allowing them to be weaker but more consistent v other threats that honestly don't have that much evasion to begin with most of the time.  It also pulls centralization away from Hidden Knife on said Ninjas, allowing for a wider amount of viable setups.

spoiler: Chemist

spoiler: Simple JP Fix Version

Antidote, 50 JP.
Eye Drop, 50 JP.
Echo Grass, 50 JP.

spoiler: Personal Preferred Version

Antidote - Cancel: Poison and Blind, 100 JP.
Echo Grass - Cancel: Silence and Berserk - 100 JP.
[Insert New Item Here]

Both versions of these fix the non-multiple-of-50-JP issue which is just a terrible annoyance.  My preferred version also adds a means of countering Berserk AND leaves room for a new Item of some kind.  I have no clue what kind of Item would be worth adding, if any, but it's noteworthy design space and a move that makes both Echo Grass and Antidote generally more worth buying.

spoiler: Paladin

Remove: Dia
Remove: Iron Will
Remove: Magic Ward
Change: Nurse (Add: Regen on top of current effects.)
Change: Transfusion (Remove MP Cost)
Add: Prepare (Add: Protect/Shell, 6 MP, Self, 200 JP)
Add: Reraise (Add: Reraise, 3 Range, 3 Vert, 16 MP, 200 JP)
Add: Wretched Blade (Weapon Element, PA * WP, 6 MP, +Poison, 1 AoE, Vert 1, NoSelf, 250 JP)

[Personal additions - rename "Prepare" to "Iron Will" or simply "Ward".  Prepare is a fucking terrible name.]

These changes handle a few things.  First, it addresses an AI issue that will cause it to use Iron Will or Magic Ward instead of Nurse when at Critical HP if the unit knows both, while making both Nurse stronger as stand-alone skills.  Wretched Blade gives Paladins an alternative to Grand Cross to use without absorption setups, and Reraise allows them to support fellow party members better.  The MP cost on Transfusion is dropped because it's already priced in HP, and Paladins already have low MP, so this gives Paladins a bit more long-term use and stops their MP from being tied up pointlessly when all their other skills also cost MP.  Dia and Reraise are switched because Paladin can make much better use of Reraise while Priest can make much better use of Dia.

spoiler: Archer

Remove: Greased Bolt
Change: Hawkseye (+Proc: Poison/Oil)
Change: Execute (Change damage to 40% of maxHP)
Change: Cover Fire (Change damage to (PA * 2 + 60) * RNG{1..3})

Cover Fire gets a better formula, and Execute becomes better at doing very not-obvious things.  Meanwhile, Hawkseye and Greased Bolt are merged because both are generally shit but make one okay skill together.

spoiler: Monk

Change: Secret Fist (Change Y to 65)
Add: Warpath (+3 Fury at end of the turn if moved, 300 JP)

Secret Fist gets a more generally reasonable Hit Rate to match that of the Death Sentence skill, and Monk gains a new Movement skill that manipulates Fury to give an alternative to Brave Up.

spoiler: Priest

Remove: Reraise
Add: Dia (See old Paladin)
Add: Holy March (+3 Faith at end of the turn if moved, 300 JP)
Esuna, 200 JP.
Regen, 50 JP.
Protect, 50 JP.
Shell, 50 JP.
Holy (Gains: Evadable)

[Personal addition - Raise 2, 300 JP.]

The idea here is to again fix the random not-multiples-of-50, give weaker skills the low-end side of the rounding, promote Esuna > Raise 2 usage, and throw in an alternative to Faith Up.  Simple stuff, really.  My personal addition here just further emphasizes the changes already being done, and because Raise 2 costing less JP than Revive is more than a bit silly.

spoiler: Wizard

(+15 MAM) [Effective +1 MA]
Remove: Fire1
Remove: Ice1
Remove: Bolt1
Add: Fire 2 Back (Same as old Fire2 except replace (Fa + 35)% with (145 - Fury)%)
Add: Ice 2 Back (Same as old Ice2 except replace (Fa + 35)% with (145 - Fury)%)
Add: Bolt 2 Back (Same as old Bolt2 except replace (Fa + 35)% with (145 - Fury)%)
Change: Fire 2 (+19% Oil)
Change: Ice 2 (+19% Slow)
Change: Bolt 2 (+19% Don't Move)
Change: Poison (AoE +1, Vert +1)
Ice 2 Back, 100 JP.
Ice 2, 100 JP.
Ice 3, 150 JP.
Ice 4, 200 JP.

[Personal addition - Remove Reflectable from Flare to give it an advantage over Holy.]

Buff Wizard MA, buff the Tier 2 Magic and Poison, remove the shitty Tier 1 spells in trade for UnFury spells to counteract Ninjitsu somewhat.  This is a simple, small buff that goes hand-in-hand with removing Venetian Shield to promote Wizardry/Black Magic.  My personal addition here is to push for the difference in Flare and Holy that was being enforced from Holy being made subject to M-EV - Holy is faster, cheaper, and with the right setup more powerful than Flare.  However, Flare is guaranteed damage while Holy can be nullified in a variety of ways.  JP adjustments again keep everything clean and 50ified.

spoiler: Time Mage

Change: Haste (Vert +1)
Change: Slow (Vert +1)
Change: Don't Move (AoE +1, Vert +2)
Haste, 100 JP.
Slow, 100 JP.

With Don't Move, it's a simple buff to a currently bad skill to make it somewhat useful and intimidating.  Not much else to say.  As for Haste/Slow, this just makes the tier 1 versions of those skills more generally usable.  JP adjustments again keep everything 50ified.

spoiler: Summoner

Change: All spells CT > 4 take M-EV.
Change: Odin (Dmg_F * MA * 9, Darkness elemental, 19% +Dead, 35 MP, 6 CT)
Change: Lich (Change Y = 65, remove Darkness elemental.)

Summons take M-EV to again push M-EV as being a relevant game mechanic and make a better distinction between the low-damage/area ones and high-damage/area ones.  The Lich losing Darkness elemental bit isn't something I added, but rather something we decided on but FDC forgot to note.

spoiler: Thief

Change: Spellbreaker (+5 MP, MA * WP, 50% RemoveAll: Re-Raise, Haste, Regen, Protect, Shell)

Simple Spellbreaker buff.  Yup.

spoiler: Oracle

Blind, 100 JP.

Yup.

spoiler: Geomancer

(+20 MPM, +10 PAM, +10 MAM, +1 Jump)  (Effective +~20 MP, +1 PA, +1 MA, +1 Jump)
Change Hell Ivy to +Stop
Change Carve Model to +Don't Move
Change Local Quake to +Petrify
Change Quicksand to +Zombie
Change Pitfall to +Slow
Change Gusty Wind to +Sleep
Change Kamaitachi to +Don't Act
Change Demon Fire to +Oil
Change Blizzard to +simultaneous Silence and Blind
Change Sandstorm to +Berserk

Buffs to the base Geomancer class give it more distinctions from the Squire class - it becomes a strong Carrier Class with solid bases but lacking in Squire's large equipment repertoire.  The changes to the procs are done for two reasons - it removes the loldoublePetrifyGG of Carve Model, but overall buffs the power of Geomancy by making each individual proc more powerful and damaging to the opponent.  In the end it's a worthwhile trade for all parties involved, as Geomancy gets to keep up with the other skills being used and the dirty-feeling double Petrifies go away.

spoiler: Samurai

Change: Koutetsu (+1 Range, -1 AoE, NoSelf)
Change: Masamune (+1 Range Linear, -1 Vert, Self)

The change to Koutetsu allows it to still cover a large area, but restricts it from being a lolsurfacenuke.  Masamune becomes weaker, with more restricted range and only able to hit 2 units instead of your entire party, again giving more reason to use Haste or Haste 2 while still keeping the double-Masamune that makes it worth using.

spoiler: Ninja

Remove: Doku no Kyoukai
Change: -ton (Now subject to M-EV)
Change: Tsumazuku (+5 MP, SP * WP, -25 CT, No other effects)
Change: Kagesougi (Change 100% blind to Random Add: Blind, Silence, Poison, Don't Move, Don't Act)

Kagesougi is buffed by merging it with Doku no Kyoukai, because non-Blaze-Gun-Kagesougi has generally been shit forever, and Doku no Kyoukai is shit, so they come together to again make one usable move.  Ninjitsu takes M-EV to again push M-EV actually being relevant, and Tsumazuku does cool and unique things.  Not much else to really say here, the -ton Ninjitsu gets a nerf of sorts and everything else gets buffed.

spoiler: Scholar

Bio 2, 200 JP.

Again, yup.  All the non-50s should be gone now.

spoiler: Bard

Change: Life Song (+25% Regen, still heals HP.)
Change: Nameless Song (Change hit rate 40%, CT = 4, RandomAdd: Reraise, Protect, Shell)

Simple Life Song buff here since it's become far less relevant with weaker Mimes and the average DPS of a unit in Arena finally becoming more respectable.  Nameless Song gets a pseudo-debuff that fixes problems the AI has with using the skill due to it previously adding Haste at 100% - or at least, the AI thinking it did so, and in turn never doing anything but use Nameless Song.  This should fix that issue, and the higher rates on Reraise, Protect, and Shell will let it be a stronger defensive skill.

spoiler: Dancer

Change: Wiznaibus (+25% Poison, still damages HP.)
Change: Nameless Dance (Change to RandomAdd: Darkness, Silence, Slow, Oil)

Wiznaibus gets a buff, because like Life Song it has fallen to the wayside.  Nameless Dance also gets a bit of a buff, adding Oil and synergizing with the changes to Oil this update brings.  This should help Dancers trying to do things other than stat-debuff Dancers a la DERP function far better than they do currently.

spoiler: Status

Oil:
Dispel by all elements (except holy/dark?)
Weak to all elements (except holy/dark?)

[Personal addition - I see no reason to exempt Holy and Dark.  There are very few Holy skills or weapons in Arena, and while Dark is prevalent, it is also the most easily countered through Black Costume being the best of the Elem Absorb items, among other things.  Koutetsu was also weakened, as was Meiton, so there's no real reason to exempt either element, personally.]

Dead:
Cancel: Oil, Frog
No Longer Cancels: Regen, Poison.

Weakens Frog a bit, fixes the bug with Oil, and promotes a change to Regen and Poison that was decided upon to make them more powerful statuses.

[Personal]
Poison:
CT becomes 96.

This just offsets the change to Regen and Poison not being Canceled after death by giving Poison a CT equal to Regen.  Since it goes from being a joke status to something actually of threat, being dispelled after a time is now something that's fair to do and at least gives people who can't dispel Poison in some way a chance, since those who can dispel it will be doing so long before 96 CT expires.

There, FDC's List-o-Changes with a few things he forgot added in, fully explained, etc.  Enjoy.

@Gaignun:  Poison currently does 1/8th HP Damage, or 12%ish.  The only way to buff it would be to 25% without a messy rewrite for 20%, but in either case it just ends up becoming too good since units suddenly drop to poison in only a couple turns.  The change here is again mostly meant to make it a weapon against sandbagging wars.  It does push people toward Raise 2 a bit - but if you read the rest of the changes, specifically those concerning Priest, the changelog itself is actually trying to push them away from Raise 2 and toward the Esuna and Regen spells, which also heal Poison.  It becomes quite a thing, really.

[Gaignun]

Esuna has a charge time.  Relying on it to restore Poison on units revived without Raise will be a crapshoot.  Relying on it to restore one's own poison will be impossible.  0 CT skills are the only reliable salvation.

I understand where you're coming from about resurrection loops.  I always thought AoE was the answer to breaking them, though.  What I'm saying is, a team that can't break an opponent's resurrection loop is a team that's too reliant on single-target attacks.

As for pushing people away from Raise, what other form of resurrection are people being pushed to?  The way I see it, all forms are becoming worse or staying bad.  Dying will become more costly, so either stacking pure offense for one-hit kills (eg. FDC's S1 team) or stacking pure defense to avoid dying (eg. Wiz's S1 team) will be the go-to strategies.  Aren't these strategies viable enough already?  Maybe I'm alone on this, but I find the battle where teams go back and forth with offense and defense to be the most exciting.

25% poison sounds delicious.  We'd need to make the status more difficult to inflict and give it a short CT (say ~4-5 turns at 8 SP for certain death without healing).  Esuna and Regen will be equally attractive.  I think we could make it work.

[Fantactic1316]

Eh, personally I don't think a unit should be able to negate my Light Robe unless they're packing Armor Break. Poison takes away Regen, with no hope of having it re-cast, and if it persists past death then the problem just gets even worse. But that's just me, I guess.

And ick! Flare losing reflectable? It already has higher Y values. And adding 1MA to Wizards helps too. And it's non-elemental so Reflect is basically the only really effective method of cancelling it. Just keep it at 100% success rate and that'll be enough advantage over evadable Holy.

Also, I like Gaignun's thoughts.

[Gaignun]

I'm late on this, but I thought I'd add my input to other listed changes:

Venetian Shield => Glitter Shield (5/5 +1 SPD)

I'm with The Damned on this: can we use a name other than Glitter Shield?  This is what I think of when I read the word "Glitter":



No offense to the name's creator or anything.

Crystal Shield (Change to 20/20, Neutral: All Elements.)

So it covers... only Light Robe's and P-Bag's Dark weakness, I think?  Too bad it won't do anything for Fire, Ice, Gold, and Mythril Shield's weaknesses, which is unfortunate, as I believe these weaknesses are what are preventing their adoption.   Crystal Shield will remain specialty shield.

Defense Ring (+8/8)

I think Defense Ring is going to need a little more to entice people.  +8 evasion is like garnishing shit with parsley (excuse my language); it still smells bad.  Maybe give it "Absorb: Earth" instead of EV to round out accessories' absorption of "secondary elements."  This is just a thought.

Add: Wild Blow (Weapon Elemental/Range, RN{XA / 2...XA * 3 / 2} * WP, unevadable, 5 MP, 100 JP)

I'm with Raven on this one: increase the MP cost to keep the AI from spamming this.  Either that or let it be evadeable.  Otherwise, consider units with Wild Blow as units that can have both Attack UP and Concentrate equipped at the same time with an occasional Berserk-like damage boost.  That's pretty broken.

Antidote - Cancel: Poison and Blind, 100 JP.
Echo Grass - Cancel: Silence and Berserk - 100 JP.

Sound proposals, and a freed item slot besides.  The status infliction of Kiyomori will be manageable this way, and people will have an accessible means of healing berserks they don't want.

[Personal addition - Remove Reflectable from Flare to give it an advantage over Holy.]

If you're looking for an advantage of Flare over Holy, you got it by making Holy evadeable and buffing mantles.  Having Flare pierce reflect is a slap in the face to reflect.  I say we keep Dispel Magic as the reflect counter.  If Flare isn't useful enough, I suggest we lower its MP or CT instead.

Add: Warpath (+3 Fury at end of the turn if moved, 300 JP)
Add: Holy March (+3 Faith at end of the turn if moved, 300 JP)

I mentioned this before, but these proposals shadow Faith UP and Brave UP.  If these movement abilities must be kept, then please lower the increments to +2.

Summoner
Change: All spells CT > 4 take M-EV.

Some summons, particularly Salamander and Leviathan, are going to be dramatically underwhelming with this change.  We'll need to buff these summons' damage or give them a status proc to compensate.

Change Hell Ivy to +Stop
Change Carve Model to +Don't Move

We are trading one evil for another with this one.  Hell Ivy is just as common as Carve Model, and double-panel Stop can be just as game-ending as double-panel Petrify (and just as bitter if it's off of Counter Flood).  Can Hell Ivy remain as +Slow?

Oil:
Dispel by all elements (except holy/dark?)
Weak to all elements (except holy/dark?)

[Personal addition - I see no reason to exempt Holy and Dark.  There are very few Holy skills or weapons in Arena, and while Dark is prevalent, it is also the most easily countered through Black Costume being the best of the Elem Absorb items, among other things.  Koutetsu was also weakened, as was Meiton, so there's no real reason to exempt either element, personally.]

There is one holy skill worth mentioning: Holy.  Letting oil boost Holy will let low-MA short-charge mages 1HKO anything without magic resistance.  This falls into my grand scheme of reserving Holy and Dark for powerful skills that would otherwise be broken with oil modifiers.  As for the prevalence of Black Costumes, that's a problem with failing to entice people away from Dark absorption.  By exempting dark from oil, we pull people away from dark and toward six others.  We give players a choice this way: give a permanent, mild boost to Holy/Dark damage with a Golden Hairpin or go for a temporary, large boost to the six others with oil.

To close, let me echo two of The Damned's proposals that aren't present, since I thought they were inspiring:

Turn 108 Gems into Coral Ring... [L]et it Absorb: Water and Block: Oil, Poison and Frog

Let Salty Rage Strengthen All Elements Alongside Other "Fun" Things

"Init: Berserk" is a gimmick tactic (case in point: zero salty rages are being used in S1), so I'm all for letting Salty Rage inherit 108 Gem's purpose and turning 108 Gems into some sorely-needed water-based equipment.  That this "Coral Ring" also blocks Frog and Oil are thematic perks.

[Fanatic]

Something I've been wondering...

I understand the AI reserves priest spells Protect and Shell for when the unit needs healing. I would like to see that buffed. Has anyone ever played with the idea of making the spell protect, in addition to adding protect, also cure darkness (which is usually inflicted by PA based attacks)? Similarly, shell could be used to also cure a status ailment commonly inflicted by MA based attacks (don't act comes to mind, archer class aside).

Is this even doable? Would the AI be more willing to use those spells then?