RPGamer interview w/Tom Slattery (Former Square Enix Translator)

[Dominic NY18]

Stumbled across this yesterday while wasting time randomly browsing Siliconera's website.

Interview with Former Square Enix Translator Tom Slattery

It's worth a read for some pretty interesting insights into the localization process. It's even more interesting because he was involved in localizing many of SE's recent titles, including some re-releases (Final Fantasy VI Advance, Final Fantasy IV DS, etc.).

[Pickle Girl Fanboy]

1. Build time machine.
2. Go back in time.
3. Make Tom Slattery learn French instead of Japanese.
4. ???
5. Profit.

[Kaijyuu]

I haven't liked a Squeenix translation for quite some time (the prose usually bothers me). Can I blame this dude?

[LastingDawn]

You can likely "blame" Alexander O. Smith for popularizing this kind of translation style into Square with his brilliantly done Vagrant Story. Square-Enix saw that they should add some class to their games and not just their Ivalice games, and there you go.

[Kaijyuu]

One man's class is another man's trash.


I don't particularly remember disliking Vagrant Story's translation (nor liking it either), so whatever's bothering me about most square translations since the playstation era might not be his fault.

[Pickle Girl Fanboy]

Go read Alex Smith's VS script.  It has some old English thrown in once in a while to spice things up, but that's it.  It's nothing compared to the sludge of archaic poetry you have to wade through in WOTL, before it clicks and you vaguely understand what someone's trying to say.

Tom Slattery tried to mimic Alex Smith, and he failed completely.  While PS1 FFT doesn't make much sense at times because it was poorly translated, WOTL makes about the same amount of sense because Tom Slattery sucks dicks.

[Kaijyuu]

Hrm, after thinking about it for a bit I've distilled my dislike of Square and Squeenix's translation conventions.

First rule is that bad localizations are inferior to direct translations, which are inferior to good localizations. "Zodiac Brave" is an example of a good localization being superior to a direct translation.
Second rule is that legacy localization conventions are risky. An example of it done badly is everything using FF7's terminology. An example of it done well would be all the Mario enemy names.
Third rule ties both those together. Names, terminology, etc needs to fit the game's setting, not be morphed to fit a series standard. "Esper" works great for FF6. "Aeon" works great for FF10. If Final Fantasy had adopted "esper" for all the summoned monsters, FF10 would be stuck with an inferior name for its summons. Fortunately they didn't.

My main problem is that some localization conventions I deem crap (such as the spell names) have become legacy conventions applied to every game. I doubt that's any one translator's fault, and of course I admit the subjectivity of it all (some people really like those silly spell names). Other problems, like FFT's second translation being filed under "bad localization" in my opinion, are problems limited to only one game.

[Fenrir90]

Thanks for sharing this Dominic NY18, that was quite an interesting read.

I'm one of few (or maybe many?) that is not pleased with the new script plus the many name changes for the heroes/villains. Cities and places, I'm okay with it since they are not that important compare to characters names. Spells were name like that in the Japanese version (my first PSX FF game was FFIX, than FFVIII, and FFVII after) and I already gotten use to the -ra/ga spell naming and I'm fine with it. I'm also glad that FFVI got a re-translation since it needed one badly. What a train-wreck the SNES version was.

FOr the topic. This is not because of nostalgia sake for the PSX FFT, I welcome a new translation... especially if done well. I'm also not a purist (literal translation all the way or don't translate the game at all type of person). I don't mind a little liberty taken here and there, as long as they don't change the meaning of the whole story or the atmosphere of the story, etc. It can be done, I've seen it in a number of games already. But the PSP script, the translator took it a little bit too far and to be honest it was quite unnecessary. Yes, the FFT engrish script was not perfect and had its flaws, so does the PSP script. I find it strange that there's not SparkNotes/CliffNotes that came within the game. Seriously, it would of been useful and helpful at certain times. Some sentence I had to reread it numerous times before getting the meaning, what a pain...

To this date, FFT has not receive a decent translation... and I'm hoping that one day it gets the translation that it deserves. Hopefully done by a translator with a head on his shoulder. It's the best FF (if not the best, one of the best) games up to this date, but I highly doubt it'll ever see the day of getting a good re-translation. Up to the fans, maybe?

PS: I like Shakespeare's works (his plays, his sonnets, etc), quite interesting and entertaining even if it's written in Ye Old English. FFT is not a god damn play and certainly does not contain any poetic crap in the original material. That, I am certain off.

[Dominic NY18]

Go read Alex Smith's VS script.  It has some old English thrown in once in a while to spice things up, but that's it.  It's nothing compared to the sludge of archaic poetry you have to wade through in WOTL, before it clicks and you vaguely understand what someone's trying to say.

Tom Slattery tried to mimic Alex Smith, and he failed completely.  While PS1 FFT doesn't make much sense at times because it was poorly translated, WOTL makes about the same amount of sense because Tom Slattery sucks dicks.

I'm guessing you're commenting on how comprehensible the localizations are with the bolded? If so, I'd just say that the original localization really can't be considered as comprehensible as the WOTL localization, no matter what one might think about the style of WOTL's localization.

Hrm, after thinking about it for a bit I've distilled my dislike of Square and Squeenix's translation conventions.

First rule is that bad localizations are inferior to direct translations, which are inferior to good localizations. "Zodiac Brave" is an example of a good localization being superior to a direct translation.
Second rule is that legacy localization conventions are risky. An example of it done badly is everything using FF7's terminology. An example of it done well would be all the Mario enemy names.
Third rule ties both those together. Names, terminology, etc needs to fit the game's setting, not be morphed to fit a series standard. "Esper" works great for FF6. "Aeon" works great for FF10. If Final Fantasy had adopted "esper" for all the summoned monsters, FF10 would be stuck with an inferior name for its summons. Fortunately they didn't.

My main problem is that some localization conventions I deem crap (such as the spell names) have become legacy conventions applied to every game. I doubt that's any one translator's fault, and of course I admit the subjectivity of it all (some people really like those silly spell names). Other problems, like FFT's second translation being filed under "bad localization" in my opinion, are problems limited to only one game.

Hmmmm. My questions to you then are:

- what makes WOTL's translation a "bad localization"?
- where does the original game fall on your scale?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm guessing you'd consider the original translation as being a direct one, and therefore superior to the new one? If that's the case, I disagree because any localization should strive for accuracy above all else, and the original fails compared to WOTL in that regard.

As an aside, what other SE games have wonky prose? You mentioned that the prose in their recent games bother you, but aside from WOTL and maybe FFIV DS, I can't think of any recent SE games that use anything other than plain Modern English prose.

Thanks for sharing this Dominic NY18, that was quite an interesting read.

...

PS: I like Shakespeare's works (his plays, his sonnets, etc), quite interesting and entertaining even if it's written in Ye Old English. FFT is not a god damn play and certainly does not contain any poetic crap in the original material. That, I am certain off.

While I see how the script can make people think of a (bad) imitation of Shakespeare or "Ye Olde English", but honestly the script in WOTL isn't nearly as close to Shakespeare or Early Modern English (what people are usually referring to when they say "Ye Olde English for anyone wondering). This is more of a nitpick of mine then anything else because it's harder to talk about the script when it's simply dismissed as being pseudo-Shakespeare.

I'm not picking on you specifically with the above though. It's just that it tends to come up whenever this topic is brought up.

Anyway, I'm glad you found it interesting. Whatever you think of Slattery's work, I thought it was interesting to get some insight into the localization process (I can't be the only one who chuckled a little at the story behind Lightning's real name, right?)

[Kaijyuu]

Hmmmm. My questions to you then are:

- what makes WOTL's translation a "bad localization"?
- where does the original game fall on your scale?

What makes it bad in my opinion is it simply not flowing well. It is overly stylized to it's detriment.

The original game falls pretty much in the same spot in terms of quality in my opinion. It was terrible for different reasons than the WOTL one however: all the engrish, misspellings, and occasionally nonsensical lines is what sacrificed its flow.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm guessing you'd consider the original translation as being a direct one, and therefore superior to the new one? If that's the case, I disagree because any localization should strive for accuracy above all else, and the original fails compared to WOTL in that regard.

I consider the original to be a little bit of both. The engrish is testament to them translating lines pretty much directly. Some things (like "zociac brave") are localizations though rather than direct translations.

As for what translations "should" strive for, you'll have to define accuracy. Word for word accuracy is a terrible idea. Quoth a PS1 game called Rhapsody, from a random NPC:

This is White Snow, a town filled with snow.
Enjoy the world of snow.

Yeah.

What I think should be strove for would be an accurate feel. Earthbound is a really good example, as they had to rewrite all the various puns and jokes littered through the game to make sense to western audiences and still retain the wacky humor. They succeeded quite well.

A localization should be willing to change what's needed to have it make sense to the new audience. This is true from a cultural perspective (westernizing listed foods and such) and a linguistic one (changing puns being the most obvious, but really any type of prose needs some touching up to fit the language). It can change things beyond that to try and make it better than the original, but such is risky and most often turns out bad. Princess Toadstool was renamed Princess Peach for a reason. On the other hand, Kefka's far more loved by western audiences than eastern ones due to the improvements to his character by Ted Woosley.

As an aside, what other SE games have wonky prose? You mentioned that the prose in their recent games bother you, but aside from WOTL and maybe FFIV DS, I can't think of any recent SE games that use anything other than plain Modern English prose.

First off, "prose" is an umbrella term for anything that isn't poetry. My post is written in prose. So when I say the prose is wonky, I mean the word choice is bad.

FF6's GBA translation is the latest one I remember, mainly due to trying to add speech patterns to characters that just seem weird (also fanboy nitpicks like Atma -> Ultima). FF5's first official translation was even worse, with the infamous pirate accent for Faris. Most games are adequate, though; I had no problems with FF10's translation. I haven't played any recent Squeenix games so I can't comment on anything relatively new.

[Dominic NY18]

What makes it bad in my opinion is it simply not flowing well. It is overly stylized to it's detriment.

The original game falls pretty much in the same spot in terms of quality in my opinion. It was terrible for different reasons than the WOTL one however: all the engrish, misspellings, and occasionally nonsensical lines is what sacrificed its flow.
I consider the original to be a little bit of both. The engrish is testament to them translating lines pretty much directly. Some things (like "zociac brave") are localizations though rather than direct translations.

Hmmm. I guess the reason I'm disagreeing with this is because while I understand the complaints about the style of WOTL's translation, I don't see how that translates into it being a "bad" localization vs. just a stylistic choice one doesn't like.

As for what translations "should" strive for, you'll have to define accuracy. Word for word accuracy is a terrible idea.

...

What I think should be strove for would be an accurate feel. Earthbound is a really good example, as they had to rewrite all the various puns and jokes littered through the game to make sense to western audiences and still retain the wacky humor. They succeeded quite well.

I meant accuracy in the sense of what a piece of dialogue, a phrase or term is meant to convey. In this sense, I'd never call a word-for-word translation "accurate", since you'd likely end up sacrificing clarity when doing so, or the dialogue comes out sounding strange or stilted.

For example, Abandon vs. Reflexes. The first is a direct translation, but "Reflexes" gives us a better idea of what the ability does.

(I actually think WOTL does falter somewhat in this regard in a few places, but for a different reason. The names for the Mystic Arts spells (Yin-Yang Magic) were too overwrought IMO. They have some relation to what the spells do, but there were perfectly reasonable alternatives they could have gone with that would have been instantly recognizable to anyone who's played a recent FF game while more clearly conveying what the spell does. It's especially glaring because that's exactly what they chose to do with the new names for Beowulf's spells).

But the above is ultimately the reason I'd disagree about the two translations sucking equally. There's none of the ambiguity in WOTL that pops up all too often in the original. I'd have preferred a more toned-down style for WOTL. FF4 DS uses a similar style of dialogue, but it's far more subtle and IMO, nails it better than WOTL. But style aside (and I think people tend to exaggerate WOTL's style, but that's another discussion), WOTL is clearer than the original without sacrificing the "feel" of the game, which puts it ahead in terms of quality.

I do agree with you overall about what a localization should strive for (seems like we might be saying the same thing in different ways).

First off, "prose" is an umbrella term for anything that isn't poetry. My post is written in prose. So when I say the prose is wonky, I mean the word choice is bad.

FF6's GBA translation is the latest one I remember, mainly due to trying to add speech patterns to characters that just seem weird (also fanboy nitpicks like Atma -> Ultima). FF5's first official translation was even worse, with the infamous pirate accent for Faris. Most games are adequate, though; I had no problems with FF10's translation. I haven't played any recent Squeenix games so I can't comment on anything relatively new.

I know what prose means, especially as compared/contrasted with verse  .

Anyway, I haven't played FF6 Advance in years, so I can't really comment on it. This is the umpteenth time I've heard FF5's PS1 translation mentioned as being terrible though. I should probably read it sometime (if I can find it).

[Kaijyuu]

I don't see how that translates into it being a "bad" localization vs. just a stylistic choice one doesn't like.

A "bad" localization IS something that one doesn't like. There isn't an objective measurement to differentiate a "good" localization from a "bad" one. The only objective measurement is literal accuracy (which we agree isn't inherently a good thing).

(seems like we might be saying the same thing in different ways).

Seems so.

This is the umpteenth time I've heard FF5's PS1 translation mentioned as being terrible though. I should probably read it sometime (if I can find it).

The Final Fantasy Anthology game set for the PS1 is the terrible translation. They actually did a mostly good job for the GBA one, so don't check out that one if you're looking for horribleness.

[Fenrir90]

I always enjoy reading stuff like this. I lol with that part (Lightning's real name). Éclair (food) didn't cross my mind when I read it, Éclair is pretty much lightning/thunderbolt in French. Fits quite well with her nickname, don't you think?

You ask what makes WOTL's translation a "bad localization"?

When some people/gamers think the plot is complicated when it's actually not. I first played this game and understood the plot. It was pretty much straight forward. Oh, by the way. English is not my first language, French is. FFT's plot ain't that complicated, all we here know the plot is not that complexe. I've read books that have more complicated plots than this game. The plot is rather simple (or maybe above simple and not overly complicated), and we all know that. You don't need to have a PhD to understand it. But tell that to the confused 15 year old kid (game is rated for Teen) who never heard/played FFT before and it's his first time playing through it. Of course, us veterans have no problem with the story since we all know the story by hard. Try playing WOTL from their eyes and tell me if it won't be complicated for you to understand. This is what I consider a "bad localization".

As a translator, he should know what it feels like to play a game with such a translation. Obviously, not everyone is verse/educated in the Elizabethan language. He should have put himself in the gamer's shoes (common folks) before deciding on doing that. Curiously, I wonder if he'd even played WOTL and if he enjoyed his re-translation. I doubt he ever played the game, the interviewer should of ask him if he played it. Games are suppose to be fun, but I didn't find WOTL fun at all. The text killed it for me. Your suppose to read a story and understand it as you go along, not spend minutes to try to decipher until you grasps what the characters are saying. Many people who likes the new script seem to fail to understand this concept. Not everyone knows the Elizabethan language. My first language is French, I learned about Shakespeare and his plays/the Elizabethan language during College English classes. Not everyone is born English, and not everyone knows or are aware of old English (Shakespeare or not). North America is English, not Elizabethan English. WOTL = "bad localization" in my honest opinion. It would of been a different story if there was a choice within the game between the Elizabethan language or the "modern" English. Many European games have multiple language on their games that can be selectable at the beginning. Why not this one? Both worlds are happy. There are more people verse in modern English than the niche Elizabethan language. I'll go look for a French version of WOTL to see if there is any. Just though of this when writing this part.

Food for thoughts to all who read this. How many of you here would have like it if WOTL had been localized in the Klingon language? That's right, no English subtitles of any shape or form, all in pure Klingon (text and voices). I'll bet you'll all be venting your frustration with such a localization. Just like the many people/gamers are doing to the WOTL script. I know I would be one of many who would be posting.

What translators "should" strive for?

A translator should aim to convey the same story and feel/atmosphere as the original version/source (be that of whatever language it may have been originally). That's what I think. You want people to understand the story, that is the first thing on the translator's job. WOTL failed to do that for me and others as well. This is coming from someone who played FFT and understood it, think about those that never played FFT before.

"I'd have preferred a more toned-down style for WOTL. FF4 DS uses a similar style of dialogue, but it's far more subtle and IMO, nails it better than WOTL."

Well there, this is something that I can agree upon. I've enjoys his other translations, and I have no particular problem with them. The only problem I have is, it's the WOTL translation.

Note: Can't seem to do quotes for some reason...

[Pickle Girl Fanboy]

IIRC, the Turks were going to be comedy relief in FF7 (like Biggs and Wedge in FF8), but they ended up being kinda badass too.  I think that was one mistake that was a good thing.

[Dominic NY18]

A "bad" localization IS something that one doesn't like. There isn't an objective measurement to differentiate a "good" localization from a "bad" one. The only objective measurement is literal accuracy (which we agree isn't inherently a good thing).

Really now? Clarity isn't an objective measure of a "good" localization vs. a "bad" one?

Anyway, I think we're just disagreeing over this because I think that clarity and accuracy (as I defined it earlier) are more important that style in a localization , and I didn't quite get that across the way I meant to. But yeah, whether one considers a localization "good" or "bad" is somewhat subjective in the end.

(obviously, I feel that WOTL has the better localization despite its flaws)

The Final Fantasy Anthology game set for the PS1 is the terrible translation. They actually did a mostly good job for the GBA one, so don't check out that one if you're looking for horribleness.

Yeah, I've played FF5 Advance and enjoyed that translation. I'm definitely going to see if I can find a script of the Anthology version.

I always enjoy reading stuff like this. I lol with that part (Lightning's real name). Éclair (food) didn't cross my mind when I read it, Éclair is pretty much lightning/thunderbolt in French. Fits quite well with her nickname, don't you think?

It does fit her. This was a perfect example of a necessary change. An English speaker with no knowledge of French would likely think of the pastry before thinking about lightning when seeing that word.

When some people/gamers think the plot is complicated when it's actually not. I first played this game and understood the plot. It was pretty much straight forward. Oh, by the way. English is not my first language, French is. FFT's plot ain't that complicated, all we here know the plot is not that complexe. I've read books that have more complicated plots than this game. The plot is rather simple (or maybe above simple and not overly complicated), and we all know that. You don't need to have a PhD to understand it. But tell that to the confused 15 year old kid (game is rated for Teen) who never heard/played FFT before and it's his first time playing through it. Of course, us veterans have no problem with the story since we all know the story by hard. Try playing WOTL from their eyes and tell me if it won't be complicated for you to understand. This is what I consider a "bad localization".

Anecdotally, most of the people I've seen complaining about the script don't actually complain about comprehensibility. Usually it comes down to disliking the style of dialogue, the name changes, or both.

I can see how a non-native English speaker might have trouble, but I'm not sure your average native English speaker who's literate would have trouble understanding the script.

As a translator, he should know what it feels like to play a game with such a translation. Obviously, not everyone is verse/educated in the Elizabethan language. He should have put himself in the gamer's shoes (common folks) before deciding on doing that. Curiously, I wonder if he'd even played WOTL and if he enjoyed his re-translation. I doubt he ever played the game, the interviewer should of ask him if he played it. Games are suppose to be fun, but I didn't find WOTL fun at all. The text killed it for me. Your suppose to read a story and understand it as you go along, not spend minutes to try to decipher until you grasps what the characters are saying. Many people who likes the new script seem to fail to understand this concept. Not everyone knows the Elizabethan language. My first language is French, I learned about Shakespeare and his plays/the Elizabethan language during College English classes. Not everyone is born English, and not everyone knows or are aware of old English (Shakespeare or not). North America is English, not Elizabethan English. WOTL = "bad localization" in my honest opinion. It would of been a different story if there was a choice within the game between the Elizabethan language or the "modern" English. Many European games have multiple language on their games that can be selectable at the beginning. Why not this one? Both worlds are happy. There are more people verse in modern English than the niche Elizabethan language. I'll go look for a French version of WOTL to see if there is any. Just though of this when writing this part.

Well Elizabethan English is just another name for Early Modern English (specifically, a late version of it)
Early Modern English Grammar

Take a look at Early Modern English pronouns, specifically the second person pronouns. Words like "thou, thy/thine, thee, ye" were common in Elizabethan English, but they're archaic in Modern English. They're also non-existant in WOTL. The same goes for Early Modern English's verb tenses.

I'm not an expert in Early Modern English, but I know WOTL is not an example of it. The King James Bible is an example of it, and I don't see the similarity between that and WOTL (outside of things it shares with Modern English).

IIRC, the Turks were going to be comedy relief in FF7 (like Biggs and Wedge in FF8), but they ended up being kinda badass too.  I think that was one mistake that was a good thing.

Then again, considering the way they act at some points in the game (outside of Gongaga and the Wutai sidequest come to mind), they still sometimes come off as comic relief.

[Fenrir90]

Lightning's new real name, Claire also fits well with her. It means bright and to some extent clear, lightning produces light and/or flashes.

Many of the gamers where either shun, flamed, ridiculed, etc, for posting that they did not understood the plot due to the script's choice of words by the very same people who enjoyed the script. This was years ago. These gamers in turn got so annoyed and started posting that the PSP version simply sucks, etc in revenge. They also started trolling. I don't blame them, they received much shit.

Well, I don't want to get into the whole "What the real name of said language is called" ordeal. So, I refer to it as old English. Old English to me is anything that's no longer in use by the general public. Simple classification, and not complicated to understand. Yeah, I know its generalization... but I'm not an expert in the English language either. But I do quite well in English.

[Pickle Girl Fanboy]

Then again, considering the way they act at some points in the game (outside of Gongaga and the Wutai sidequest come to mind), they still sometimes come off as comic relief.

Yeah, but it's more like institutional jack-assery than them being screw-ups.  Somewhat like the crap that infantry soldiers, Secret Service agents, and other such elite units get into when they have lots of stand-by time, and of course everyone's talking about everyone else behind their back.

Their drinking habits (and the seriousness with which they take their drinking) reinforces this theory, I think.

They just seem like normal guys (and a gal), working an extraordinary job.  Even their catch phrases ("That's the will and spirit of the Turks!" and "Believe it") demonstrate that they are extraordinary by what they do, not in and of themselves.

On topic:
In writing, anything which distracts from the story must go.  It doesn't matter that you fucking love your witty dialog; if people notice the dialog, then they missed the story, and your conceit is the reason why.  I say that the extraneous wordplay is distracting and needs to go.

[Dominic NY18]

Many of the gamers where either shun, flamed, ridiculed, etc, for posting that they did not understood the plot due to the script's choice of words by the very same people who enjoyed the script. This was years ago. These gamers in turn got so annoyed and started posting that the PSP version simply sucks, etc in revenge. They also started trolling. I don't blame them, they received much shit.

Well, I don't want to get into the whole "What the real name of said language is called" ordeal. So, I refer to it as old English. Old English to me is anything that's no longer in use by the general public. Simple classification, and not complicated to understand. Yeah, I know its generalization... but I'm not an expert in the English language either. But I do quite well in English.

I've never come across anyone being ridiculed/flamed/shunned for not liking the script or understanding it. Then again, I can't think of anyone who said they had trouble understanding it (aside from you). Of course, I've only frequented GameFAQs in the past and this forum, so it's not exactly a representative sample size (and we're both speaking anecdotally anyway).

Anyway, you could just as easily get across the same thing by saying WOTL uses anachronistic terms, phrases and conventions. Sure, by your definition, "Old English" is just the use of language conventions that are no longer being used, but to me "Old English" refers to this:

spoiler

Hwät! we Gâr-Dena in geâr-dagum
þeód-cyninga þrym gefrunon,
hû þâ äðelingas ellen fremedon.
Oft Scyld Scêfing sceaðena þreátum.

(Translation)
Lo! the Spear-Danes' glory through splendid achievements
The folk-kings' former fame we have heard of,
How princes displayed then their prowess-in-battle.
Oft Scyld the Scefing from scathers in numbers...

Which is different from Elizabethan English/"Ye Olde English"/Shakespearean/Early Modern English/etc.:

spoiler

Our Father, which art in heaven,
Hallowed be thy Name.
Thy Kingdom come.
Thy will be done in earth,
As it is in heaven.
Give us this day our daily bread.
And forgive us our trespasses,
As we forgive them that trespass against us.
And lead us not into temptation,
But deliver us from evil.
For thine is the kingdom,
The power, and the glory,
For ever and ever.
Amen.

It's the King James's Version of the Lord's Prayer, which is admittedly not the best example because I've heard it uses deliberate old-fashioned phrases at times, but was the first non-Shakespeare example to come to mind (and the only one I could really find)

Which is kind of different from this:

spoiler

Delacroix: I see Gaffgarion's sword was no match for his words. Then again,
perhaps the fault lies with his adversary. Beoulve blood is not given to spill
easily. Even when thinned with that of a courtesan, it would seem.

But enough is enough. Your intrusions overstay their welcome. Leave the
auracite, and then leave Lionel. A generous offer, and my last.

Ramza: Where is Lady Ovelia?

Delacroix: You mean to free her? What then? You've turned your back on your
house. A man cannot prosecute a war alone. Forget this bootless struggle. Think
you mere -will- enough to see you victorious? Even will needs force, and you
have none.

Ramza: Tell me where the princess is!

You can call it what you want, but I think you're just inviting people to misunderstand you because "Old English" has a common meaning at odds with the way you use it.

Yeah, but it's more like institutional jack-assery than them being screw-ups.  Somewhat like the crap that infantry soldiers, Secret Service agents, and other such elite units get into when they have lots of stand-by time, and of course everyone's talking about everyone else behind their back.

Their drinking habits (and the seriousness with which they take their drinking) reinforces this theory, I think.

They just seem like normal guys (and a gal), working an extraordinary job.  Even their catch phrases ("That's the will and spirit of the Turks!" and "Believe it") demonstrate that they are extraordinary by what they do, not in and of themselves.

Agreed. I was pointing out how if they were originally intended to be comic relief, there's still vestiges of it in the way they come off at times.