Final Fantasy Tactics V1.3

[Archael]

Too true.

We'll start with 4 move and Innate: Defend for now.

Defending will make them evade-gods later game at the cost of the Act command, which is balanced. Until they can reach their target to break / damage them.

Thanks Lydyn!

[Lydyn]

No problem. ^^ Not sure what you want to do with Blade Grasp / Abandon / Praise / Cheer Up, though. Chances are someone else will bring it up if I don't, but lots of people are concerned about being able to raise your Brave up to 97 and evading all kinds of stuff. I've never tried it with Abandon, but having Blade Grasp with 97 Brave almost makes your character immune to damage ... since there's so few good magic users that you face as enemies.

Something to think about too. Personally, I reworked the entire Medaitor class... but, not sure if you want to take suggestions or ideas from my patch or not. *Shrug*

[Archael]

It would be easy to just disable the blade grasp flag on alot of skills that are currently affected by it such as Jump.

The problem is according to Raijinili, disabling that flag will also turn off counter for the un-flagged skills.

[Archael]

In other words blade grasp would be FINE if it only worked against weapon attack commands like it's supposed to.

[townknave]

Innate Defense UP would help Knights in some capacity, sure.  My main argument all along regarding Knights, however, is that they are little more than high-HP rocks standing in your way, to be easily cleared out by whatever damaging way you choose.  They simply are not a credible offensive threat.  When a unit that is not a credible offensive threat is used by the AI but not the player, and in fact makes up a high proportion of the AI armies, the game is unavoidably going to be easy.  Tanks are not useful in FFT because it's easy to target that dangerous Wizard behind the slow, durable Knight.  In fact EVERY SINGLE class has some form of ranged attack, except the Knight.

As for Chakra, I've always advocated MP cost for certain Punch Art moves.  Among them, Wave Fist, Earth Slash, Chakra, Stigma Magic, and Revive.  The cost for should be so that you need Martial Arts and high PA to have a decent net MP gain for the Caster.  It's bad enough that it restores MP for others, but for the caster is just ridiculous.    

I agree with you, Lydyn, that Lancers should be generally better than Knights.  What I do not agree with is the current state of affairs:  They are many times better than Knights in pretty much every way that matters, to the point where it's irrational for the player to use a Knight over them.  You might say Knight Swords are a reason, but the player's best Knight Swords will go his 5 Knight Sword wielding specials.  

Even strengthening the Knight to the max that's been proposed, I think the Lancer is pretty clearly better than even a Split Punch wielding, 4 move Knight.  

And no, there is no point to giving Knights katanas.  Not only is there no precedent for it in any FF game where katana have been their own weapon class, but katanas will always do a lot less damage than swords without Samurai's innate two hands due to the katana's horrible formula.  The slightly higher W-Ev might be a consideration if weapon guard wasn't horrible, but it is.  I wish we could make weapon guard always active so that W-Ev would be a meaningful consideration on weapon choice, but as of now it's basically a non factor.

[Archael]

Split Punch might take some of the uniqueness away from Agrias as some pople are saying.

Have you considered giving them Beowulf's Shock! skill? It's not like he needs it. I am testing it and it accepts all formula changes / effect changes. as well as range reduction an MP costs. This would make killing fighting knights more interesting, as severely hurting them means they will throw damage right back at you.

Also, I can get shock to be evadeable by mantles and shields.

You could keep Shock! as their 20 MP 3 range weapon skill to be used when they are hurt, or just give it a standard damage formula.

Any thoughts?

[townknave]

The real root of these problems is the fact that the player can modify his br/fa values permanently and at no real cost, while the AI is stuck with always-suboptimal Br/Fa values between 45 and 74.

If we could change it so the increment needed to permanently increase one's brave was higher, like say, 20, then that would be ideal.  Given that we can't, and because Br/Fa modding help to break SO many things (blade grasp, auto potion, enemy mages nerfed), I think we can't achieve anything like balance unless they're taken out.

In the story, Orlandu is the bravest in Ivalice with 77.  That your squire Rad should be not just braver, but much braver with 97, just because your mediator yelled at him for 20 minutes is ridiculous.  

The good effects of removing Br/Fa modding are many.  That enemy Knight with 74 Brave or enemy Wizard with 74 Faith might actually be worth inviting now.  You might actually consider casting Reflect to defend against enemy mages.  Your fighters are no longer immune to just about all physical attacks.  Your Beowulf actually has a weakness.  Rafa is actually valuable as an item finder.  Malak is actually valuable because he is less vulnerable to magic than anyone else.  Your reaction abilities no longer trigger like 50% more often than the enemy's.  Your magic is no longer 50% stronger.

I would go so far as to say that if Br/Fa modding are left in, the game can never be balanced in any meaningful way.  It's just too big an advantage available to the player that is never available to the AI.

Abilities like Cheer Up ought to be changed.  Maybe make it give +1 MA or something.  Scream of course would need to lose its +10 Br component, if that's possible.  Oh, and Accumulate/Yell/Cheer UP/Scream seriously need to have an MP cost, they're badly broken as they are as stackable free buffs.

Removing Br/Fa modding is preferable to weakening Blade Grasp by unflagging the actions to which it applies because it doesn't have the side effect of nerfing counter, a perfectly fine reaction ability that is good as it is.  If we could remove it from gun and arrow attacks ONLY, I think that would be ideal.

As for jump, I'm inclined to say BG should work against it.  It's an attack with a blade in the same sense that the Lancer's normal attack is, so why not?  Besides, there ought to be SOME way to defend against Jump-  it has longer range than any sword skill and is unconstrained by MP cost.  I remember there being serious debate in a great GameFAQS thread comparing the skillsets as to whether Holy Sword was even better than Jump.  

I disagree that giving away Split Punch takes away from Agrias' uniqueness.  Split Punch sucks.  Its damage, range, and status ailment are all completely exceeded by other Holy Sword skills.  It's odd to say it's what makes her unique when she has no real reason to ever actually use it over Lightning Stab/Crush Punch.

The real threat to Agrias' uniqueness is Orlandu.  A lot of people have supported nerfing him by giving him Destroy Sword instead of All Swordskill, but I think a better approach is to make All Swordskill a sampler rather than a compilation.  It would include:

Stasis Sword
Split Punch
Crush Punch
Shellbust Stab
Blastar Punch
Dark Sword

This way, Orlandu has a little of the three main Sword skillsets but doesn't have all the moves that someone dedicated to them.  This fixes the redundancy of both Agrias and Meliadoul while toning down Orlandu.  Now, what makes Agrias unique is the best Holy Sword skills, Lightning Stab and Holy Explosion, while Meliadoul is the only source of the probably best Might Sword skills, Hellcry Punch and Icewolf Bite.

As for Shock!, that is a very interesting idea.  I've never actually thought of it.  At first blush I'd rather Knights be made more powerful for the duration of battle rather than just the end...  this gives the player more an incentive to take out enemy Knights last, which even further decreases their ability to function as tanks.  But it certainly is an interesting skill, and I'd like to see it on some enemies if possible-  maybe Zalera's zombie knights would be good candidates?

[Archael]

I'm messing around with Shock! and I made it blockable by mantles and shields. I gave it the standard weapon formula and it works well. It's basically a ranged weapon swing with an MP cost. It is evadeable too.

So perhaps this is a better solution than the standard Shock! skill.

I will try this for Holy / Mighty / Dark Sword skills as well.

It's about time they lose that 100% hit rate.

[Archael]

Jump is BG'able at the moment.

However Jump needs to be EVADEABLE as well.

[Lydyn]

Well, giving Shock presents the same problem as giving them Split Punch; it doesn't make the patch as close as the original as possible. It's giving a special skill to a un-special class. You only need level 2 squire for crying out loud to get the danged class!

Geez, if you're that worried about range too, let Knights use crossbows/bows and give Archers innate concentrate so there's a use for both of them. Actually giving crossbows to knights would be nice...

I also looked at the forumlas for the katanas, swords, and knight swords ... they all use 01 - Normal. So, you've lost me there, sorry. I know Samurais don't do a ton of damage, but they have lower PA, so ...

Dunno why you're getting so worked up for though, townknave. One of the easiest ways to make the game more challenging is to bump the levels on all the story battles. I did it so that every story battle, the enemies went up +2 levels. By the end of the game, the enemies are level 95-99. Also just replace some knights with lancers or something ... most of the complients are mostly due to how the story battles are set up, not because one class is stupid or whatnot. Maybe even bump up the class requirements or something, I don't know ...

No need to get worked up, though. If anything, just change what you don't like when he's finished with v1.3, assuming he actually stays with the original. At the rate with adding special skills to regular classes, I wouldn't dare call it v1.3 anymore. No offence.

[townknave]

Before you go weakining Sword Skills too much, remember that they are the main arsenal of many of the game's major boss fights.  The Wiegraf battle will be a lot less daunting if we can rely on our Diamond Shield and Elf Mantle to pretty much nerf Lightning Stab.  

There's very little ground in FFT between 100% hit rate and complete evadeability. I think MP cost balances out Sword Skills enough...  if we make them evadeable too they might not even be better than Elemental.

 Of course, I'm open to making whatever we give the Knight evadeable, though I really don't think it needs to be.  

I should add that most of the Shrine Knights should get innate Move-MP UP or maybe have Dark Sword addeed to their skillset.  Their pact with Lucavi or whatever ought to ensure that they can keep the sword skills going indefinitely.  Vormav and Rofel need to have at least some basic Holy Sword skills added to their skillsets.  In fact, I think it'd be more than fair if they got Dycedarg's skillset or even original All Swordskill.  Whatever it is, they shouldn't be nerfed completely by Maintenance.

[Archael]

Making Sword skills evadeable is important. One of the major reasons they are so strong is the 100% hit rate. They should be treated as weapon attacks, which is what they are in essence. Ranged weapon attacks with chance to add status.

And don't worry about the bosses. They will have innate concentrate so don't worry about that.

Bosses will be looked at later. Player - usable jobs come first.

Lydyn, keeping it close to the original as possible WHILE improving upon it. Don't forget that. If I simply wanted to keep it close to the original as possible I wouldn't be working in a patch. I'd just play FFT V1.0

My close to original rule was more directed at new sprites and jobs and huge sweeping changes, but it accepts things that will improve the game, especially such an under-used job as the Knight.

[Lydyn]

Well, guess we have difference of opinion ... as under-used as the Knight is, giving him special skills just makes it.. not original in my opinion. You two seem to have it all under wraps anyways and some of my ideas are already getting pushed aside. So, you two have fun with this. ^^

[townknave]

Well, giving Shock presents the same problem as giving them Split Punch; it doesn't make the patch as close as the original as possible. It's giving a special skill to a un-special class. You only need level 2 squire for crying out loud to get the danged class!

Geez, if you're that worried about range too, let Knights use crossbows/bows and give Archers innate concentrate so there's a use for both of them. Actually giving crossbows to knights would be nice...

I also looked at the forumlas for the katanas, swords, and knight swords ... they all use 01 - Normal. So, you've lost me there, sorry. I know Samurais don't do a ton of damage, but they have lower PA, so ...

Dunno why you're getting so worked up for though, townknave. One of the easiest ways to make the game more challenging is to bump the levels on all the story battles. I did it so that every story battle, the enemies went up +2 levels. By the end of the game, the enemies are level 95-99. Also just replace some knights with lancers or something ... most of the complients are mostly due to how the story battles are set up, not because one class is stupid or whatnot. Maybe even bump up the class requirements or something, I don't know ...

No need to get worked up, though.  I've done a WOTF type playthrough and it's a fun novelty, but a brute force challenge appeals much less to me than a more strategic challenge, where the AI and I are on a fairly equal statistical footing.  It's like the computer game civilization.  You can bump up the difficulty by giving the AI articifial production bonuses and such, but it's much better to actually get the game balances so the AI can play better.

When you say "the way the story battles are set up," that's because they're full of Knights, who are by wide agreement the worst class in the game.  I am only trying to point this fact out because improving knights is the simplest way to improve the game's difficulty without resorting to super high level enemies.  Super high level enemies do not genuinely make the game harder.  97 Brave blade grasp blocks a level 99 Knight's sword swing just as good as it blocks a level 1 Knight.

You are correct that giving Knights Split Punch violates the ideal that we should stay true to the initial spirit of FFT.  but one of the other stated goals for the project is to make sure every class has a purpose.  As it is right now, Knights are a completely inferior class that only the AI uses, and they present no threat whatsoever to the player.  I am not advocating that they be made better than Lancers or Monks.  Heck, I'm not even advocating that they be made as good.  I just want them to not be so obviously and completely outclassed by them.

If we have to choose between sticking as closely as possible to the initial spirit of FFT and making every class useful and balanced, I'm going to choose the latter every time.  It looks like you choose the former.  There's nothing wrong with that at all, and in the end what gets chosen doesn't matter since I can easily make the changes I want for myself and you can do the same.  Until then, I am only trying to share whatever small amounts of wisdom I have accumulated with the game with the wider FFT community in hopes of persuading them to make what I think is the best possible version of FFT 1.3 for everyone.  

On other matters, I'm not in favor of giving Knights xbows, though I do think Squires should have them.  No other FF has Knights using xbows or bows, while there is precedent for them having sword skill-like moves (i.e. Steiner learning many abilities from Beatrix Holy Sword job command).

Lydyn, I would also urge you to check the BMG or test it in a vanilla game.  Knight Swords and Katanas, with the "Attack" command, definitely deal (PA * Br/100 * WP) damage.  I'd stake my life on it.

[Archael]

Excuse me? "You two" have it under wraps?

What's that supposed to mean? I met town knave 2 days ago in the FFH chatroom, he's one of like 10 different people who are constantly giving ideas for this patch. I don't have anything "under wraps" with him.

None of townknaves or my own ideas are final or 'under wraps', and NONE of these changes / concepts is final.

All ideas are welcome and considered please don't suggest otherwise because that is not true.

If giving the knight an extra skill doesn't work out, it can very easily be removed. There WILL be playable versions of this patch before it is finalized, I don't know what the big deal is, seriously.

[townknave]

Making Sword skills evadeable is important. One of the major reasons they are so strong is the 100% hit rate. They should be treated as weapon attacks, which is what they are in essence. Ranged weapon attacks with chance to add status.

And don't worry about the bosses. They will have innate concentrate so don't worry about that.

Bosses will be looked at later. Player - usable jobs come first.

Lydyn, keeping it close to the original as possible WHILE improving upon it. Don't forget that. If I simply wanted to keep it close to the original as possible I wouldn't be working in a patch. I'd just play FFT V1.0

My close to original rule was more directed at new sprites and jobs and huge sweeping changes, but it accepts things that will improve the game, especially such an under-used job as the Knight.

Any idea if there's a way to make M-Ev apply to them while keeping them PA-based?  I don't quarrel with them being evadeable, but subjecting them to full physical evasion AND MP cost is a really big step down...  I think Sword Skills are adequately addressed by adding MP cost and paring down Orlandu's skillset.  When it's just Agrias doing a 100% lightning stab, that she only has enough MP to do 3-4 times, after which she becomes less useful than a regular Knight, it doesn't seem nearly as broken as Orly's did...

[Archael]

MP cost can be minor like the one philsov applied. That means 6-15 MP costs.

And no, there is no way to make them MA EVadeable while being PA based that I know of, since the flag just checks for evade of the weapon type the attack is based on.

But if I make em MA evadeable it would be even worse since people will just stack Dracula + Aegis shield to try and block them.

Also the lowest chance you will have to hit someone with a Sword Skill is around 22% from the front, assuming they are using an Escutcheon II + A feather Mantle.

If you are that worried about their accuracy, equip Concentrate on the caster like you would for any other class.

[Lydyn]

Excuse me? "You two" have it under wraps?

What's that supposed to mean? I met town knave 2 days ago in the FFH chatroom, he's one of like 10 different people who are constantly giving ideas for this patch. I don't have anything "under wraps" with him.

None of townknaves or my own ideas are final or 'under wraps', and NONE of these changes / concepts is final.

All ideas are welcome and considered please don't suggest otherwise because that is not true.

If giving the knight an extra skill doesn't work out, it can very easily be removed. There WILL be playable versions of this patch before it is finalized, I don't know what the big deal is, seriously.

  Sorry for offending you. You both just seem so passionate about this and most of my ideas are being out-spoken by your guy's ideas and ... apparently I'm offending people as well, or something.. *Scratches head* Anyways, I'm cool sitting this one out, it's not a big deal to me. I can find a dozen ways to make it simple and harder at the same time while making it balanced. I just.. don't think in the same ways you two do, I suppose.

Not saying any of this is bad or anything, just... me having a different preceptive on the game. Like I said, I even just redid the entire Mediator class and didn't think twice about taking out Brave modifiying skills. Only thing that modifies Brave in my game is making it lower...

[Archael]

I'm not offended, well. Just a little that you would think I would push anyone's ideas aside.

The brave modification will for sure be looked at, especially the raising at part, and ESPECIALLY Ramza's +10 Br ability lol.

Also, we are not adding abilities to every generic class. In fact, I don't think any job needs tweaking that much except for Knight. If giving it an extra skill doesn't work out, then they will have to simply stay with 4 move / innate defend.

Also, philsov made a much bigger change by trying to fix V1.0 calculator and look how great that turned out. Sure it still needs some tweaking with it's innates (too strong) and it's skillset ( too weak), but it came out MUCH improved from V1.0.

Perhaps knight in V1.3 will work out good too? You never know

[Lydyn]

I'd rather the knight be given normal skills from another class rather than special skills though. Calculator was given normal skills, even though it changed the class entirely.

Still don't understand why the 'no' on crossbows for knights. It's not like it overpowers them or takes away from any of the classes. *Shrug*

Well, if you decide not to add crossbows then (still not sure why

Could give them Magic Defense UP I suppose, or even give them innate concentrate. That'd make you more worried about them anyways... hm.