FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [MONSTERS]

[The Damned]

They probably just didn't use it. I can't remember the AI ever using Quick-like abilities (or, at least, ones that individually target). Then again, I'm guessing that you probably tested Possession too, Skip, so I might well be wrong.

Anyway, I was just coming back to suggest that Ghosts should probably have some Wind-based attack. And, hey, there's Ominous Wind. (Too bad we can't have it potentially give the Ghost stat-boosts, heh.)

I'm really liking most of the other changes as well as the skill set names. In fact, I've very problems with any of these:

• Archaic Demon - I quite like Black Hole and White Hole, especially since the former reminds me of the Space Magic "Vortex" from Saga Frontier and the latter just makes sense. I don't think that Giga Flare should be Dark, though. It just seems like it should be Fire. Then again, Flare isn't Fire, but Black Mages get Fire-based attacks other than Flare. It's not like it's huge deal either way. I just think that Archaic Demons should have some flexibility over its distance attack given that its only other damaging attack is based on its HP.
• Ghost - Hmm...this is the one you've changed the most, and yet I'm fine with it. I'd probably fine it weird that the Ghosts "special" attack is purely PA-based now, but considering it's supposed to more a pest than a damage-dealer and it can snipe people better than most other monsters, I'm fine with Ectoplasm (again, nice name) being "weak". Chilling Touch seems like it should cost some MP since we all know how screw CT 00 abilities can be. Besides that, the only other thing I would say is that Malice probably should have another name since it heals--maybe name it "Spite", though that's only slightly different.
• Mindflayer - Not sure how I feel about Brain being a distant attack, but we'll see how that goes. I like Replenish over Aqualung. Nothing critical to say about these changes, really.
• Marlboro - This is perhaps one that I have the most problem with, if only because of Bad Breath, which is why everyone is weary of them. Bad Breath cannot have Petrify or Frog, especially if it's Separate status as it should be. It's just going to make Bad Breath kind of stupid, even if it costs MP. I would say to get rid of Petrify and Frog and make it cost 3 or 4 MP. If you think that it should stay 5 MP, then add Zombie over Petrify and Frog IMO. That said, the other changes are fair. Goo probably never should have Poisoned in addition to Don't Move due to wanting it to hit multiple people. Is there a reason that Blow Away isn't Wind, though? It doesn't need to be. I'm just wondering why it was changed since it doesn't seem like it would be broken as Wind, especially since Ghosts aren't immune to Slow.
• Treant - I'm completely fine with these.
• Cockatrice - I'm also completely fine with these.

Good job. It looks like these might be good for testing already, though I'm of course curious if anyone else has opponents on these.

[FFMaster]

From my tests, the AI never used Possession. Marlboro wasn't actually very scary, with only 3 move. A single Esuna usually fixed things up.

White Hole/Black Hole are going to lose the Haste bit though.

[The Damned]

Eh, I'm fine with 4 move for Marlboros then if it's that or Petrify and/or Frog on Bad Breath.

Good call on the Haste thing. Stupid status priority....

[Skip Sandwich]

at this point all we need is two more monsters, one each for fire and ice respectively, and we'll have the entire elemental gamut covered. Any interest in bombs and behemoths?

[The Damned]

Eh, I think for phase 2 of monster testing, though two would be fine. As it stands right now, though, it seems like it'd be easier to test fewer monsters, especially ones that aren't competing for Elemental space with human equipment and aren't competing for niche-space with monster move-set that have yet to be set in stone.

That said, I'm more supportive of Behemoths as Ice than I am of Bombs as Fire. As obvious as the latter seems, they showed in most recent AI tournament that they're dumber with Self-Destruct than I thought they were. I'd perhaps rather have Dragons or Hydras or even Minotaurs represent Fire for a while. We also probably "need" want of them newer monsters to be weak to Earth and Bombs obviously can't be, so there's that too.

That's just me though, of course.

[FFMaster]

Bombs not having Fire element sounds... weird... its been an iconic part of them since FF1.

As for Ice element... not too many fit. I could make Apandas or Goblins Ice element I guess?

[Eternal]

Well, some Bombs in the FF series have had an Ice element. Maybe have two seperate Bombs- one Fire, one Ice.

[Archael]

a couple of facts about Throw Spirit

1) It's always used PA and Brave only
2) Ectoplasm is it's WOTL name

[Skip Sandwich]

Bull Demon
serving the roles of fire-element representative and physical beatstick, both of which are currently missing from the monster line-up

Absorb: Fire
Half: Thunder
Weak: Water
Reaction: Counter
Movement: Ignore Height, Cannot Enter Water

Abilities - Monklike
Vulcan Wave Fist: range 3, area 1v1, basic physical attack, shake off effect

Fire Spin: range 0, area 2v1, deals PA/2 * PA fire element damage to all in range

Sacred Flame: Cleanse negative status and heal 25% hp, range 4, area 0, fire element, cancel: poison/blind/silence/don't act/don't move

???: something utilizing the choco meteor effect

Suplex: climbhazzard attack, dmg(TarMaxHP - TarCurHP), range 1v3

[Skip Sandwich]

Ice Gigas [Behemoth]
Ice element concept as well as magic-tank

Absorb: Ice
Half: Wind, Water
Weak: Thunder

Reaction: Meatbone Slash
Support: Magic Defend UP
Movement: Cannot Enter Water, Move-HP UP

Abilities

Sudden Cry: range 1v0, basic physical attack, may inflict instant death

Ice Breath: range 2, area 2, linear attack, deals PA/2 * MA ice damage and may inflict silence

Stasis: range 4, area 0, inflict Stop/Slow/Don't Act/Don't Move

Hibernate: self inflict sleep, 100% HP heal

Brain Freeze: deals 50% MP damage, range 3v3, area 0

[The Damned]

Bombs not having Fire element sounds... weird... its been an iconic part of them since FF1.

As for Ice element... not too many fit. I could make Apandas or Goblins Ice element I guess?

Oh, I didn't mean to have Bombs be an element other than Fire. I just meant that for initial monster picks, using Bombs is kind of tricky between Self-Destruct and all their existent innate immunities.

If we're only going to have eight monsters in all of Arena (which I thought weren't), then, yeah, I guess Bombs should maybe the "Fire type" by default, even if Self-Destruct with their AI is still dicey.

Behemoths as the Ice type seem quite fine though. They even look shaggy and fat enough for it to make "sense".

Bull Demon
serving the roles of fire-element representative and physical beatstick, both of which are currently missing from the monster line-up

Absorb: Fire
Half: Thunder
Weak: Water
Reaction: Counter
Movement: Ignore Height, Cannot Enter Water

Abilities - Monklike
Vulcan Wave Fist: range 3, area 1v1, basic physical attack, shake off effect

Fire Spin: range 0, area 2v1, deals PA/2 * PA fire element damage to all in range

Sacred Flame: Cleanse negative status and heal 25% hp, range 4, area 0, fire element, cancel: poison/blind/silence/don't act/don't move

???: something utilizing the choco meteor effect

Suplex: climbhazzard attack, dmg(TarMaxHP - TarCurHP), range 1v3

"Physical beatstick"? Er...Cockatrice is supposed to be there already. Not that we can't have two, with one being more sturdy. However, it's not like been completely neglected.

It seems weird that some holding an axe would be resistant to Lightning, but I guess given that lightning is heat-related, it makes some "sense.

I'm guessing "Monklike" is supposed to be a description of its abilities rather than the move-set name? Even if that's the case, Goblins are actually more "Monklike", which is a bad thing anyway since why would one use a non-flexible Monk character when Monks are still available and can do more?

As for the move set itself, I'm not feeling the "physical beatstick"-y-ness of it, I'm sorry to say.

Ice Gigas [Behemoth]
Ice element concept as well as magic-tank

Absorb: Ice
Half: Wind, Water
Weak: Thunder

Reaction: Meatbone Slash
Support: Magic Defend UP
Movement: Cannot Enter Water, Move-HP UP

Abilities

Sudden Cry: range 1v0, basic physical attack, may inflict instant death

Ice Breath: range 2, area 2, linear attack, deals PA/2 * MA ice damage and may inflict silence

Stasis: range 4, area 0, inflict Stop/Slow/Don't Act/Don't Move

Hibernate: self inflict sleep, 100% HP heal

Brain Freeze: deals 50% MP damage, range 3v3, area 0

I can understand wanting to make a magic tank, but I'd say that I held off because I honestly feel that (faith-reliant) magic is still weaker than physical alternatives.

Even without that feeling, this thing is entirely too tanky IMO between the necessary Ice absorption, two-resistances, Magic Defend UP, Move-HP-UP and 100% HP full-heal? Yeah, that things gonna take forever to die, especially since pretty much no one uses Lightning attacks currently. In addition to that, having a potential sudden death attack and distant paralytic attack to give even more time to heal just seems kind of...broken to be blunt about it.

****

Okay, I guess we're going to do this since FFMaster didn't seem to object to possibly adding two more monsters to make sure there's a monster for every element. If we're going to do this, I think that Skip Sandwich has the correct basic ideas (again) in that one of them likely needs to be a "fighter" and the other needs to be a "tank". Hell, we could probably split the defenses pretty easily since Fire and Ice absorption set-ups work, exist and have been used already. (It could be similar to how relatively "sparse" the Dark-absorbing Ultima Demon is.)

Behemoths are pretty much fine for the Ice type, but we have three very different yet usable monster for the Fire type: Bombs, Dragons and Minotaurs. I would say that what the Behemoth is should dependent on which one of the three is chosen since, for instance, Bombs are far more likely to be (magic) tanks than either Dragons or Minotaurs would be.

As such, given that I just that I'm weary of the magic-tank niche right now and that Skip Sandwich has already purposed his vision of a beatstick Minotaur and a magic-tank Behemoth, I will purpose slightly tank-y, "average" versions of a Dragon (Fire-type) and a Behemoth (Ice-type).

spoiler: Enter the Dragon:2n22lj9x

Monster Name: Dragon
Stats: Slightly above average HP, Slightly above average MP, average PA, above average MA, average or slightly below average Speed, below average C-EV, 3 Move, 4 Jump
Elemental Attributes: Absorb: Fire; Halve: Fire, Lightning; Weak: Water
Status Immunities: Dead, Death Sentence, Poison, Petrify
Reaction: Dragon Spirit (too bad it probably still screws with the sprite)
Support: None
Movement: Cannot Enter Water, Move-MP Up, Move on Lava
Abilities: Skill Set Name - Soul of Bahamut

• Dragon's Fang - A close range bite that attempts to paralyze, like a snake's (Physical Lighting Element attack): Probably should be slightly less damage than normal attack, attempts to add Don't Act (or Don't Move or perhaps either), range 1, vertical 2, area 0, no CT or MP.
• Dragon's Breath - A dragon breathes its famed breath, you breathe your last (Magical Fire Element attack): At least decent magical damage, perhaps cancels Reraise, range 2, vertical 2, area 2, maybe should perhaps should be Direct, some MP cost, maybe some (slight) CT.
• Dragon's Roar - The dragon lets out a terror-inducing, deafening roar: faith-based magical attack that attempts to add Stop, Slow, Don't Act or Don't Move, range auto, vertical infinite, area 2, probably shouldn't discriminate, probably some MP, probably doesn't need CT.
• Dragon's Might - The dragon toughens its already steel-like skin: magical self-buff that add Protect and Shell only to the Dragon, range auto, needs some MP, probably doesn't need CT.
• Dragon's Vestiges - Though they may no longer fly, the dragon's wing alongside its tail can still produce a frightful wind: at present, I can't really think of anything other a physical version of Aero/Ghost's Omnious Wind.

Yeah, Dragons are kind of over the place. It doesn't really help that this is all of the top of my head and I want them to be "middling" without being as average as Goblins or Chocobos or Uribos would likely be (if we're going to use them). They're "kind of tank-y", but other than that, they need work.

I'm going to try to do Behemoths/Ice Gigases anyway:

spoiler: Behemoth:2n22lj9x

Monster Name: Ice Gigas
Stats: Above average HP, average MP, above average PA, average MA, below average Speed, piss-poor C-EV, 3 or 4 Move, 3 Jump
Elemental Attributes: Absorb: Ice; Halve: Ice, Water, Wind; Weak: Earth
Status Immunities: Frog, Zombie, Charm, Float
Reaction: Regenerator
Support: None
Movement: Any Ground, Walk on Water, Move-HP Up
Abilities: Skill-set Name - Burden of Beasts

• Mountain Horn - The Ice Gigas takes tries to gore the enemy as it lunges forward with a headbutt: physical attack that can add Sleep, range 1, vertical 2, area 0.
• Sudden Cry - The Ice Gigas, being a cruel beast, can destroy a sleeping enemy's ears...along with the rest of its body: Dark Elemental Death-formula using attack that attempts to kill anyone that Sleeps, range 1 or 2, vertical infinte (if 1) or 0 (if 2), area 0, probably needs to use MP, probably doesn't need CT.
• Snow Angel - The Ice Gigas, lazy though it is, will occasionally trash about, throwing dirt and such at surrounding enemies: Ice Element (or Earth Element) physical attack, range auto, vertical 3, area 2 or 3, probably shouldn't use MP (or that much MP), probably doesn't need to CT, perhaps not discriminating.
• Stormbringer - Centuries of living in snowy conditions has taught the Ice Gigas how to bring the snow to it: Ice Elemental magical attack, range 3 or 4, vertical 2, area 2 or 3, discriminates, needs to use MP, probably needs CT.
• Fat Stores - The Ice Gigas, when its desperate, can burn up its fat stores to promote self-healing: self-buff of Regen and Slow, probably shouldn't cost much MP or have a CT.

...Yeah, those names and abilities need work, but that's all I have off the top of my head. I figure that we don't really have a monster yet that can do "cover" fire and it hardly needs to be ungodly strong since it's such a fat-ass and should be difficult enough to take down.

I'll try to think up more fitting things and perhaps come up with magic tank versions of Bombs and Behemoths as well as more physically oriented Minotaurs and Behemoths just to start more discussion since we're apparently doing this.

(I'll look through this post for typos later. In the mean time, you'll have to forgive me.)

P.S. The description I give to things aren't the descriptions that I would want put in-game or anything. They are/were just there to help me think.

[Skip Sandwich]

just piping up again, regarding bombs. Bombs to me have always been the Gambler of monster classes, so they're a perfect opportunity to include gambler type skills in Arena.


Bomb
Absorb: Fire
Half: Wind, Ice
Cancel: Earth
Weak: Water

Reaction: Critical Quick
Support: Overwhelm
Movement: Float

Skillset - Kamikaze

Bite - basic physical attack, may inflict Oil status, range 1v3

Living Flame - Throws fire about randomly, range 0, area 2v5, hits 4 times, deals MA/2 * MA fire element damage, Flame attack effect, direct attack (should achieve a better then expected hit rate via hitting units by targeting panels directly behind them), does not target self or allies (but could still hit allies via indirect targeting, this needs testing, however)

Shrapnel - Sacrifice health to deal non-elemental damage, range 3, area 0, unevadable, deals PA * 12 damage, take 1/3 backlash damage, small bomb effect

Self Destruct - classic skill, range 0, area 2v1, shock damage + Oil/Blind/Silence status

Meltdown - self-destruct variant, focuses blast in a single direction to gain greater range and pierce through protective magic, range 5, area 5v1, linear attack, shock damage + cancel Protect/Shell/Reflect/Haste/Regen/Reraise

[The Damned]

...That's pretty ingenious, Skip, which is saying something considering I usually agree with you as it is.

(I may "borrow" that.)

[Skip Sandwich]

since I love undead so much, here is another potential Ice monster in the Revenant (Skeleton)

Revenant
Always: Undead
Immune: Dead, Blind, Poison, Regen, Sleep, Don't Move, Death Sentence
Absorb: Dark, Ice
Half: Thunder, Water
Weak: Holy, Fire

Reaction: Meatbone Slash
Support: Two Swords
Movement: Any Ground, Move Underwater

Skillset - Cold Terror

Knife Hand - basic physical attack, may cancel Haste, range 1v3

Heartbreaker - Spell inflicts 75% hp damage to a unit afflicted with Charm, Dark/Ice element, range 4 area 0

Frozen Soul - deals PA+8/2 * MA ice-element damage to a single target at range, range 4, area 0

Icy Glare - lowers the brave of multiple units by 10 points each, range 3, area 1v0

5th move - ???