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Arena Monster Concepts  (Read 1474 times)
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Mediator
Eternal [Posts: 2618] Logged
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  • [May 18, 2012, 01:50:35 PM]
Arena Monster Concepts
« on: May 18, 2012, 01:50:35 PM »
I decided to play around with concepts for monsters, since FFM and I were talking about it. I've already shown these to some folks in chat, but I'll post them here as well. Feel free to flame them as you wish.

Chocobo:
Theme: Assistance
R/S/M: Counter, Fly, Walk on Lava
Immune: Disable, Immobilize, Slow, Stop

-Chocobo Kick (Weapon damage and Add: Disable)
-Chocobo Down (Revival)
-Chocobo Recharge (Restores MP)
-Chocobo Gift (Gives MP to an ally)
-Chocobo Meteor (Ranged damage)

Goblin:
Theme: Prankster
R/S/M: Counter Tackle, Concentrate, Walk on Lava, Move-HP Up
Immune: Blind, Charm, Immobilize, Berserk

-Tackle (Weapon damage and Add: Immobilize)
-Goblin Punch (Damage equal to the enemy's lost HP)
-Eye Gouge (Add: Blind, Poison)
-Magic Hammer (Damages MP)
-Distract (Cancel: Charging, Performing, Defending)

Bomb:
Theme: Boom!
R/S/M: Critical Quick, Float, Walk on Lava
Immune: Oil, Doom, Undead, Death

-Bite (Weapon damage, Add: Oil)
-Fireball (Ranged Fire damage)
-Spark (Fire damage around self)
-Bomblet (Reraise on self)
-Self-Destruct (Deals damage equal to lost HP, adds Oil)

Panther:
Theme: Evasion
R/S/M: Caution, Abandon, Ignore Height, Cannot Enter Water
Immune: Poison, Blind, Sleep, Stop

-Claw (Weapon damage and Add: Blind)
-Pounce (Ranged weapon damage)
-Cleanse (Removes debuffs from self)
-Reflexes (Add: Haste/Defending/Vanish on self)
-Blaster (Add: Petrify, Slow, or Stop)

Mindflayer:
Theme: Sabotage
R/S/M: Counter Magic, Move in Water, Magic Defense Up
Immune: Silence, Frog, Berserk, Charm

-Tentacle (Weapon damage and Add: Charm)
-Flood (AoE Water damage)
-Wither (-3 PA)
-Fog (-3 MA)
-Mind Blast (Add: Charm or Berserk)

Skeleton:
Theme: Death
R/S/M: Meatbone Slash, Walk on Water, Any Weather, Any Ground
Immune: Blind, Poison, Doom, Death

-Stab (Weapon damage and Add: Sleep)
-Dark (AoE Dark damage)
-Bane (AoE 33% damage, Add: Poison)
-Wake the Dead (Revives an undead unit with 50% HP)
-Kill (Add: Death)

Ghost:
Theme: Supportive Undead
R/S/M: MP Switch, Float, Teleport
Immune: Poison, Silence, Doom, Death

-Ectoplasm (Weapon damage and Add: Undead)
-Drain Touch (Drains HP)
-Zombify (AoE Add: Undead)
-Rising Dead (Add: Reraise/Regen on the undead)
-Blighted Armor (Add: Protect/Shell/Reflect on the undead)

Ahriman:
Theme: Punishment
R/S/M: Damage Split, Magic Defense Up, Fly, Cannot Enter Water
Immune: Stop, Petrify, Doom, Death

-Wing Attack (Weapon damage and Add: Stop)
-Doom (Add: Doom)
-Manaburn (Deals damage equal to an enemy's current MP)
-Vengeance (Deals damage equal to the user's lost HP)
-Despair (Cancels buffs and deals 40% damage to an enemy)

Cockatrice:
Theme: Speed
R/S/M: Speed Save, Fly, Cannot Enter Water
Immune: Petrify, Slow, Immobilize, Stop

-Scratch (Weapon damage and Add: Slow)
-Gale (AoE Wind damage and Add: Slow)
-Uplift (Add: Float/Immobilize)
-Zephyr (Add: Haste on and around self)
-Stone Beak (Add: Petrify)

Pig:
Theme: Eccentricity
R/S/M: HP Restore, Defense Up, Cannot Enter Water
Immune: Poison, Charm, Sleep, Death

-Dash (Weapon damage and Cancel: buffs)
-Piggy Comet (Ranged damage)
-Toot (Add: Charm/Poison)
-Squeal (Ranged minimal revival)
-Bacon (Add: Regen/Reraise)

Treant:
Theme: Restoration
R/S/M: Regenerator, Defense Up, Magic Defense Up, Cannot Enter Water
Immune: Poison, Silence, Oil, Undead

-Leaf Rain (AoE Weapon damage around self and Add: Silence)
-Hallowed Ground (Persevere HP healing in a large AoE around self)
-Rejuvenate (Persevere MP healing in a large AoE around self)
-Sanctuary (Persevere cure debuffs in a large AoE around self)
-Gift of Life (Ranged 100% revival)

Minotaur:
Theme: Tanking
R/S/M: Hamedo, Defense Up, Magic Defense Up, Cannot Enter Water
Immune: Blind, Berserk, Disable, Stop

-Pickaxe (Weapon damage and Add: Berserk)
-Brawl (Immobilize around self)
-Enmity (MA*1 healing to enemies around self to draw in enemies)
-Sentinel (Protect/Shell/Regen/Defending on self)
-Earthshatter (Earth damage around self)

Malboro:
Theme: Debuffs
R/S/M: Counter Flood, Defense Up, Walk on Water
Immune: Poison, Blind, Petrify, Frog

-Tentacle (Weapon damage and Add: Poison)
-Swamp Water (Ranged Water damage and Add: Slow)
-Tanglevine (Ranged Earth damage and Add: Immobilize)
-Slime (Ranged Add: Slow, Disable, Immobilize, or Stop)
-Bad Breath (Add: Poison, Blind, Silence, Slow, Oil, or Sleep 2 AoE around self)

Behemoth:
Theme: Equipment Breaking
R/S/M: A Save, Attack Up, Defense Up, Cannot Enter Water
Immune: Blind, Slow, Oil, Undead

-Heave (Weapon damage and Add: Doom)
-Blastar Claw (Damage and destroy helmets)
-Shellbust Claw (Damage and destroy armor)
-Hellcry Claw (Damage and destroy weapons)
-Icewolf Bite (Damage and destroy accessories)

Dragons:
Theme: Breaths
R/S/M: Dragon Spirit, Ignore Height, Cannot Enter Water
Immune: Oil, Undead, Doom, Death

-Fire Breath (Linear Fire damage and Add: Oil)
-Ice Breath (Linear Ice damage and Add: Slow)
-Thunder Breath (Linear Thunder damage and Add: Immobilize)
-Dark Breath (Linear Dark damage and Add: Blind)
-Holy Breath (Holy damage to a single enemy)

Tiamat:
Theme: Random Strikes
R/S/M: MA Save, Fly, Cannot Enter Water
Immune: Sleep, Doom, Innocent, Frog

-Triple Attack (Weapon damage on three-sides of the user)
-Dark Whisper (Random Dark damage and Add: Sleep/Doom, strikes multiple times)
-Curse (Randomly strikes a tile with Blind/Silence/Immobilize/Disable/Slow)
-Fallen One (Randomly strikes a tile, reducing the unit's HP to 1.)
-Heaven's Wrath (Random Thunder damage based on Unfaith, strikes multiple times)

Here dying, join my legion of undeath. Your blood, the roses on unhallow'd graves!
:D
CT5Holy [Posts: 921] Logged
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  • [May 18, 2012, 04:12:34 PM]
Re: Arena Monster Concepts
« Reply #1 on: May 18, 2012, 04:12:34 PM »
Reraise on undead unit = undead unit never gets back up. So Ghost's Rising Dead should be tweaked a bit.

I hope the Behemoth break skills are melee range and avoidable.

Everything else seems fine.

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Shade [Posts: 1078] Logged
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  • [May 18, 2012, 04:35:05 PM]
Re: Arena Monster Concepts
« Reply #2 on: May 18, 2012, 04:35:05 PM »
Reraise on undead unit = undead unit never gets back up. So Ghost's Rising Dead should be tweaked a bit.

I am not so sure about that, since I have seen them get back up with reraise, but the thing with that was it was permanent reraise afterwards, since I think it read it as undead trying to get up instead of reraise, so undead came back every single time on first chance possible.

Atleast that's what I saw on a video where there was a unit with undead and reraise.

Anyway it's really buggy and should be outright avoided.

Upupupu...

Zetsubou
Mediator
Eternal [Posts: 2618] Logged
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  • [May 18, 2012, 04:55:58 PM]
Re: Arena Monster Concepts
« Reply #3 on: May 18, 2012, 04:55:58 PM »
@CT5: I envision the Behemoth skills being melee range and avoidable, yeah. As far as Reraise on Undead are concerned, I've never heard of such a glitch. Is there a video of it somewhere?

Here dying, join my legion of undeath. Your blood, the roses on unhallow'd graves!
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Taichii [Posts: 811] Logged
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  • [May 18, 2012, 05:06:32 PM]
Re: Arena Monster Concepts
« Reply #4 on: May 18, 2012, 05:06:32 PM »
definitely using this next season if implemented XD

Please do share your ideas and suggestion for my project:
FINAL FANTASY TACTICS : LEGEND OF MANA

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Barren [Posts: 1752] Logged
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  • [May 18, 2012, 05:08:38 PM]
Re: Arena Monster Concepts
« Reply #5 on: May 18, 2012, 05:08:38 PM »
I think there was one on Takeno's team if i remember correctly. he had a samurai with diamond helmet and cursed ring. I know its in one of my videos somewhere
« Last Edit: May 18, 2012, 05:20:38 PM by Barren »
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Taichii [Posts: 811] Logged
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  • [May 18, 2012, 05:24:11 PM]
Re: Arena Monster Concepts
« Reply #6 on: May 18, 2012, 05:24:11 PM »
shouldn't ghost's zombify be removed? cause the irst skill already has undead effect..
either make it have an effect area of 5 panels (like a cross) or change it would be better :)

Please do share your ideas and suggestion for my project:
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"PAIN. THAT'S WHAT KEEPS YOU HUMAN"
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Eternal [Posts: 2618] Logged
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  • [May 18, 2012, 05:26:38 PM]
Re: Arena Monster Concepts
« Reply #7 on: May 18, 2012, 05:26:38 PM »
That's what AoE means. :P

Area-of-effect.

Here dying, join my legion of undeath. Your blood, the roses on unhallow'd graves!
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Taichii [Posts: 811] Logged
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  • [May 18, 2012, 05:36:06 PM]
Re: Arena Monster Concepts
« Reply #8 on: May 18, 2012, 05:36:06 PM »

Please do share your ideas and suggestion for my project:
FINAL FANTASY TACTICS : LEGEND OF MANA

Join our RP :)
"Desperation"

"PAIN. THAT'S WHAT KEEPS YOU HUMAN"
Unreliable as a Mime.
The Damned [Posts: 2071] Logged
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  • [May 18, 2012, 07:26:46 PM]
Re: Arena Monster Concepts
« Reply #9 on: May 18, 2012, 07:26:46 PM »
(Damn it. I guess I'll have to double post in the Stat/Abilities thread before I leave later today. Great.)

Hmmm...I'll fully respond to these ideas when I'm not currently typing up another large post on another forum. I'm only posting right now to say two main things:


1. I don't understood the arguments that came up in the other thread that there "isn't room" for monsters or that they have to have between 3-4 abilities when they can have more that since we're only, at most, using 16 monsters. Since ARENA doesn't need to have space for special characters or bosses, there's no way in Hades there isn't enough room. Whether monsters are too niche is entirely another argument....

2. I can vouch for/back-up CT5Holy when he says that an Undead unit having Reraise will NEVER get back up. I thought this was common knowledge. Even if it isn't, when I was able to test, it was one of the things I tested rather thoroughly and even with if you make them immune to Crystal or Treasure, they just stay down IIRC.


I'll give a more detailed analysis later, though I rather have to agree with CT5Holy about Behemoths as well and a few of the later monsters are catching my eye for "bad" reasons.

I'll be back to bitch at you guys in a couple of hours.
Dynablade [Posts: 133] Logged
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  • [May 18, 2012, 07:54:06 PM]
Re: Arena Monster Concepts
« Reply #10 on: May 18, 2012, 07:54:06 PM »
Ghosts looks like they could be crazy, you sure about MP Switch? Would the AI decide that restoring its MP is basically making it invincible, and thus puts it high on priority?
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Eternal [Posts: 2618] Logged
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  • [May 18, 2012, 07:59:25 PM]
Re: Arena Monster Concepts
« Reply #11 on: May 18, 2012, 07:59:25 PM »
The AI can't see Reactions, so it wouldn't know MP Switch exists at all.

Here dying, join my legion of undeath. Your blood, the roses on unhallow'd graves!
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Shade [Posts: 1078] Logged
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  • [May 18, 2012, 09:36:45 PM]
Re: Arena Monster Concepts
« Reply #12 on: May 18, 2012, 09:36:45 PM »
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=25qZQIbiUOk


Yeah undead and reraise, it's buggy as fuck.

Upupupu...

Zetsubou
Pierce [Posts: 72] Logged
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  • [May 19, 2012, 01:23:47 AM]
Re: Arena Monster Concepts
« Reply #13 on: May 19, 2012, 01:23:47 AM »
I'm stoked on monsters.

Pig's "toot" skill adds Charm and Poison. The poison damage at the end of the unit's turn will cancel charm, not sure if that's intentional or not.
Also I'm not sure what is meant by the Treant skills saying "Persevere HP Healing" or "Persevere MP Healing"

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  • [May 19, 2012, 01:39:10 AM]
Re: Arena Monster Concepts
« Reply #14 on: May 19, 2012, 01:39:10 AM »
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=25qZQIbiUOk


Yeah undead and reraise, it's buggy as fuck.

Can you point out the time where the bug shows? Thanks!
Dynablade [Posts: 133] Logged
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  • [May 19, 2012, 01:52:16 AM]
Re: Arena Monster Concepts
« Reply #15 on: May 19, 2012, 01:52:16 AM »
22:28
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The Damned [Posts: 2071] Logged
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  • [May 19, 2012, 06:22:32 AM]
Re: Arena Monster Concepts
« Reply #16 on: May 19, 2012, 06:22:32 AM »
(Sigh. Why did you quote that with the video in it when it's on the same page, dinosaur?)

I am returned, having taken longer to do something else before I left than I anticipated; thanks, computer.

Anyway, I'm still rather surprised that so far that at least a few people, who aren't new to FFT at all, weren't aware of the Undead thing with regards to Reraise. I mean, it's mentioned in the Battle Mechanics Guide as the very second thing under [Undead] status. While the Battle Mechanics Guide mentions a bunch of stuff that's minutiae, including the Faith glitch that only CT5Holy ever took advantage of, given how often Undead is used compared to Faith and how I'm pretty sure it's come up at least thrice in ARENA, I guess I just thought everyone knew.

Good to know to still not make assumptions about things.

Anyway, onward to something actually substantive. Having already started thinking about this Embargo, I'm not entirely sure that Undead monsters are doable/worth trying to convert. Then again, this is slightly different (and perhaps better overall) in format from how I was considering doing a potential version of ARENA, so I'll just go with Undead as if they're guaranteed (or, hell, as if monsters are guaranteed).

I'll just go through each monster individually for now rather than comparing them to each other (for the most part):

1. Chocobos:They seem fine, even if Move on Lava is a bit...odd, especially in combination with Fly. I'm guessing Choco Recharge only targets the self, correct? Otherwise, Chocobo Gift would become even more redundant seeming.


2. Goblins: Ugh, innate Concentrate alongside what's essentially Shock and potentially obnoxious "Distract", depending on its range and speed, are make quite wary of Goblins. It doesn't help that "Prankster" isn't exactly a clear theme unless you meant "annoying". I'm also not understanding the Walk on Lava.


3. Bombs: Getting this out of the way first, I have to say that Walk on Lava is utterly unnecessary here since Float Movement, unlike Float Status, already doubles as that. That said, when it comes to utterly useless RSMs, they would probably the monster that benefits the most (read: at all) from Any Weather. Then again, weather has presently been edited out of all maps, at least for the tournament, so....

Anyway, getting into their actual moveset, I'm a bit wary of Bomblet plus Self-Destruct, at least if Self-Destruct hits multiple units still. Also, does Spark still heal the user, because if it does, then I never see the AI using Bomblet in the first place.

("Boom!" technically isn't a theme either, but I choose to interpret it as "heavily offensive", Reraise aside.)


4. Panthers: Despite vaguely knowing that some sprites of have Cannot Enter Water in vanilla have problems when encountering water with it, I'm not entirely sure we should saddle any of the monsters with Cannot Enter Water. It will probably require more testing though just to be sure we're not getting into any "breaks the game" territory.

Technique-wise, Reflexes seems dubious due to how the AI acts about temporary Vanishing/Invisible/Transparent/Clear/Whatever. It's probably even more problematic than usual due to be packaged with Haste, which makes it inevitable that its going to used by the AI. Somewhat similarly, Blaster seems like it would prioritized after that due to having both Petrify and Slow as well as Stop. Unfortunately, I'm not sure what to advise as a solution to either of these at present.


5. Mindflayer: Eh, Counter Magic seems way too likely to backfire to be on a monster as a permanent innate. Counter Flood seems like it's generally better. Other than that, I'm not sure any monster needs an immunity to Silence, Counter Magic aside. Also, Wither and Fog shouldn't be on the same set given the computer doesn't keep track of what stat it's lowering if Thieves and Dancers are any indication. Separate them please.

6. Skeletons: They seem mostly fine aside from the fact that Dark and Bane are rather repetitive. If you're going to keep them together, then please make Bane single target and unable to self-target. Outside of that, I have no idea how you plan to make Wake the Dead work or if you're just going to make Kill add Dead or do damage like Death & add Dead; Kill seems kinda redundant, but meh.


7. Ghosts: While supportive Undead is "interesting" and perhaps justifies something as currently egregious as MP Switch, this current design has quite a few problems. First, though, I might as well address the ambiguities: Rising Dead and Blighted Armor take only Undead, but don't target the entire map, right? Also, I'm guessing these abilities would also hit the Ghost using it?

Getting past that, as has been stated by CT5Holy, Rising Dead would actually screw over the Undead at present due to Reraise. Additionally, Ectoplasm and Zombify are rather anathema to Drain Touch, which is something I only realized right away due to doing it myself with Ghosts in Embargo like an idiot. As such, you're probably going to have to changing one or the other; changing Rising Dead to combat Raise 2 is something I'm not sure about yet, especially since having either Undead-only ability cause Innocent would be kinda busted.


8. Ahriman: Currently the monster I like the most, which means I might steal from it the most. The only thing I'm sure about is the damage off Despair, but even that doesn't seem too troubling. Cannot Enter Water is probably fine on the few monsters that already had that can Fly despite what I said earlier.


9. Cockatrice: Stone Beak might be a bit much on something so fast and with presumably such movement, though it's difficult to tell. Outside of that, much like Ahriman, I don't have much of a problem with, though Uplift is a bit vexing to me. I know it's from Celdia's patch--I suppose it's just because I'm used to think of Floating and Immobilized as opposites. Well that and the Float seems to serve no real purpose beyond thematic stuff, but I'd be somewhat hypocritical if I said that was invalid.


10. Pigs: "Eccentricity" isn't a theme.... That said, I'm assuming that Toot causing Charm & Poison is intentional due to the reasons that Pierce pointed out. Beyond that, Bacon is a bit...ugh, especially combined with HP Restore, but I suppose it ultimately depends on the range and likelihood as with quite a few things.


11. Treant: Defend Up and Magic Defend Up seem a bit much, but I'm guessing that they're still going to have crappy Move/Jump and offensive, so maybe it's justified. That said, Gift of Life is still somewhat to cautious of; I'm guessing it's "only" single-target unlike Spirit of Life from 1.3. Beyond that, are the persevering abilities discriminating or not?


12. Minotaurs: Hamedo? Do not want. Just give them Counter please.

Outside of that, I kinda like these, to the point where I might steal Brawl. I don't really understand Enmity though. Is it supposed to persevere while healing the Minotaur to draw enemies in? Or...?


13. Malboros: Ugh, AoE 2 Sleep is just asking for trouble with Bad Breath, even if it doesn't discriminate. Outside of that, I like this design too.


14. Behemoths: CT5Holy already addressed these guys and I have nothing else to add at present, so let's just move on.


15. Dragons: Don't really like these guys, if only because "Breaths" boils down to "Linearity with some elemental diversity that probably won't do much make the computer vary its attacks. As such, Dark Breath can probably stand to die for some type of physical attack given that Dragons are conspicuously lacking one.


16. Tiamats: This is perhaps a bit hypocritical of me given that I'm going to institute Gambler soon, but I really don't like the focus being "random hits" even that's just keeping true to vanilla Hydras. At the very least, it seems like Fallen One should become something else or, at least, have its range/possible AoE better defined.


As said, I currently don't have much in the way of suggestions to "fix" these problems, but I'm sure I'll come to suggest stuff in time. Regardless, thanks for doing this, Eternal.


Also I'm not sure what is meant by the Treant skills saying "Persevere HP Healing" or "Persevere MP Healing".

Almost forgot to answer this: "Persevere" means "repeated" here, as in "Performing" like a Dancer's Dance or a Bard's Song.
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Shade [Posts: 1078] Logged
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  • [May 19, 2012, 01:11:52 PM]
Re: Arena Monster Concepts
« Reply #17 on: May 19, 2012, 01:11:52 PM »
Yeah dammed the reraise/zombie seems to do wtf it ever wants.

11:15 unit with zombie and reraise dies, and later comes back up.
22:28 the same unit doesn't come up and just dies.

Upupupu...

Zetsubou
Mediator
Eternal [Posts: 2618] Logged
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  • [May 19, 2012, 01:28:49 PM]
Re: Arena Monster Concepts
« Reply #18 on: May 19, 2012, 01:28:49 PM »
@Damned: In regards to the monsters with Move on Lava, it's mostly a small detail so they don't get screwed should they ever battle at Bervenia. As for the BMG, I haven't read it in ages. :P

Chocobos: Yes, Chocobo Recharge would only work on oneself. The general gist is for it to act as an MP battery when needed while also being able to perform other functions.

Goblins: Yes, Prankster = Annoying.

Bombs: Spark wouldn't hit themselves because then they'd be trying to heal themselves instead of Self-Destructing, which is why their theme is simply "Boom". :P

Panthers: We could probably remove Vanish from Reflexes, yeah. I forgot how dumb the AI is when left alone with Vanish. I'm not sure what you're getting at with Cannot Enter Water. The reason most monsters have that to begin with is because their sprites don't have water frames.

Mindflayers: Perhaps Auto-Potion instead of Counter Magic? As far as Fog/Wither are concerned, perhaps Fog can lower MA, and Wither can lower Speed?

Skeletons: Dark can become Ruin, which can lower PA. This way we cover lowering MP, MA, PA, and Speed through different monsters.

Ghosts: Blighted Armor I originally planned as being single target, but I suppose it'd be more useful as AoE. Mapwide could be very interesting and make Undead teams a bit more viable.

Cockatrices: As far as I know, Float is still weak to Wind, which would make Gale all the more deadly. FFM may have changed that though, so I dunno.

Treants: Gift of Life would be single target, yes. Preferably, the healing skills would be allies only.

Minotaurs: Two monsters with Counter? Ewww. Enmity is Persevere, Hit: Enemies only. It causes enemies (melee ones at least) to come into that radius for healing, drawing them close to the tank.

Malboros: The statuses picked for Bad Breath would be random- it wouldn't always be Sleep.

Dragons: Maybe a 100% Knockback regular attack?

Here dying, join my legion of undeath. Your blood, the roses on unhallow'd graves!
French Maid
Xifanie (Webmistress) [Posts: 3634] Logged
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  • [May 19, 2012, 02:39:38 PM]
Re: Arena Monster Concepts
« Reply #19 on: May 19, 2012, 02:39:38 PM »
Yeah dammed the reraise/zombie seems to do wtf it ever wants.

11:15 unit with zombie and reraise dies, and later comes back up.
22:28 the same unit doesn't come up and just dies.
Or Zombie just takes priority and Reraise only hides the death count in this case.

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