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Gaignun [Posts: 325] Logged
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  • [May 02, 2012, 05:14:02 PM]
Re: ☢ ☢ ☢ FFT Arena AI Tournament Season 1 ☢ ☢ ☢
« Reply #40 on: May 02, 2012, 05:14:02 PM »
I'm going to be putting links to the videos in the OP so people who fall behind don't need to fish for them.  I find Youtube's playlist to be inconvenient when browsing through dozens of videos.
:D
CT5Holy [Posts: 908] Logged
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  • [May 02, 2012, 06:33:08 PM]
Re: ☢ ☢ ☢ FFT Arena AI Tournament Season 1 ☢ ☢ ☢
« Reply #41 on: May 02, 2012, 06:33:08 PM »
Quote from: Dome
Having 2 stickied topics about the tournament is confusing me >_>

With that said, now I will add to the confusion by talking about the matches here! =P

Winner of the 1st FFT 1.3 AI Tourney
Pierce [Posts: 72] Logged
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  • [May 02, 2012, 07:09:05 PM]
Re: ☢ ☢ ☢ FFT Arena AI Tournament Season 1 ☢ ☢ ☢
« Reply #42 on: May 02, 2012, 07:09:05 PM »
Having 2 stickied topics about the tournament is confusing me >_>

Ignorance itself is a crime! - Miluda
Not a Girl
mucus [Posts: 91] Logged
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  • [May 02, 2012, 07:14:01 PM]
Re: ☢ ☢ ☢ FFT Arena AI Tournament Season 1 ☢ ☢ ☢
« Reply #43 on: May 02, 2012, 07:14:01 PM »
With that said, now I will add to the confusion by talking about the matches here! =P
thanks!  yeah those scholars are a little tanky, it's really cool to see how much punishment they can take.
Point, Shoot, Reload, Repeat
Barren [Posts: 1707] Logged
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  • [May 02, 2012, 08:17:37 PM]
:D
CT5Holy [Posts: 908] Logged
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  • [May 03, 2012, 01:43:58 AM]
Re: ☢ ☢ ☢ FFT Arena AI Tournament Season 1 ☢ ☢ ☢
« Reply #45 on: May 03, 2012, 01:43:58 AM »
My predictions for Round of 16:

Gaignun vs Shade
mucus vs dacheat
Squidgy vs Angelus
Wiz vs DomieV
AeroGP vs Fanatic
iamBQB vs Barren
fdc vs CT5
Ryason55 vs Celdia

Winner of the 1st FFT 1.3 AI Tourney
Melancholy Artist
Reks [Posts: 316] Logged
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  • [May 03, 2012, 02:53:51 AM]
Re: ☢ ☢ ☢ FFT Arena AI Tournament Season 1 ☢ ☢ ☢
« Reply #46 on: May 03, 2012, 02:53:51 AM »
Thanks for the faith, CT5. Nah, jk.... I know I'll likely lose. But hey, the fun is in not knowing

"Nothing good ever came out of the past, except history." -Rucks, Bastion
dacheat [Posts: 98] Logged
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  • [May 03, 2012, 03:19:53 AM]
Re: ☢ ☢ ☢ FFT Arena AI Tournament Season 1 ☢ ☢ ☢
« Reply #47 on: May 03, 2012, 03:19:53 AM »
Thanks for the vote of confidence CT5. :3

Hopefully it's right.
Unreliable as a Mime.
The Damned [Posts: 2036] Logged
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  • [May 03, 2012, 05:26:21 AM]
Re: ☢ ☢ ☢ FFT Arena AI Tournament Season 1 ☢ ☢ ☢
« Reply #48 on: May 03, 2012, 05:26:21 AM »
(I kinda agree with Dome here, which is funny because I was going to joke at his expense about it.)

Thanks for the tallies of things, Fantactic1316 and Gaignun.

Anyone want to finish things off and do a tally of weapons used? I'm pretty sure Throwing Knife and some of the crappier ones won't show up at all even as one-ofs. *cough*BowGun*cough* [/asking too much]

Anyway, I find it hilarious that 36 Black Costumes is low. Hahaha...that's kinda bad, especially given at least two other things absorb Dark that don't totally suck now, though at least N-Kai Armlet could still use a boost since Confusion doesn't even exist in ARENA anymore.

Looked at what not healing skills are most used... masamune 32. Steal heart at 17... god I hate that ability. Also what is up with holy these days, it seems everyone uses holy instead flare these days.

Besides what Fantactic1316 already said, it's also because, on the flip side, Black Magic still sucks or, rather, it's at least still outpaced by other things as it unfortunately always has been since vanilla. All it has over Summon Magic, which has revival that Black Magic lacks and gets past both Reflect and M-EV, is Frog, Death, Poison and Flare. Death and Poison suck and are obviated by far too many things to be worth counting, so only Flare and Frog really count. Ironically, due to Reflect Ring's upgrade to blocking Silence and boosting magick, despite both Flare and Holy being reflectable, it means that the decreased use of Magic Ring means that Holy element isn't absorbed any more. As such, when that Reflect eventually does go down, Holy is not going to be absorbed and it is better for interrupting things and being more difficult to interrupt itself even without Short Charge as well as being cheaper MP-wise.

It's not that Black Magick isn't usable. It's just that, besides Flare (arguable), literally the only things it has going is elemental-absorption, that the elemental Tier 4 that gets past Reflect and Frog, which is useful if Frogged.

Even then, though, elemental-absorption is pretty much restricted to Fire since Scholars better Ice and Lightning abilities to abuse and even then Wizards have to compete with the utter BS of the currently overpowered magic guns, which are 100% accurate and don't take MP. Furthermore, outside of Flare, Wizard's whole direct offense gets severely hampered by singular pieces of equipment due to White Robe and Venetian Shield. Even Frog has to compete with both a couple of instant-cures to Frog (Stigma Magic & Maiden's Kiss) and the much quicker, more accurate Esuna as well as (ab)useable equipment that already blocks Frog like the universally wearable Chantage.

On top of all that, Black Magic has to compete with every other Faith-based magic being more useful since all that Black Magic can do is ultimately cause damage--usually only to single target--if it can get past M-EV or try to Frog people; Poison and Death don't count less because of the dismissive argument that they "suck", but because they're both ultimately useless since all Black Magic does besides Frog people is damage. Why the hell would you bother with minimal damage over time--especially when other classes have 100% Poison abilities--and an iffy chance pf single-target instant-Death when you already do is direct damage capable of OHKOing and you already have to deal with Raise 2's "everything's 100% okie-dokey" bullshit?

...Sorry, that ended up being a rant that would be better-suited Abilities thread and that isn't something I feel FFMaster or even ARENA itself are necessarily to blame for. However, needless to say, it's really not surprising that Holy is a lot more popular than Flare, especially since Mages don't automatically absorb Holy now by virtue of Magic Ring being the only mage-accessible item to block Silence.
Bad code, beware! The NOPs are coming to eat you!
formerdeathcorps [Posts: 1307] Logged
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  • [May 03, 2012, 05:51:14 AM]
Re: ☢ ☢ ☢ FFT Arena AI Tournament Season 1 ☢ ☢ ☢
« Reply #49 on: May 03, 2012, 05:51:14 AM »
You are right in saying that wizard as a main class is inferior to summoner (which is why I suggested innate immunities to silence and berserk) and that wizard as a skillset is fairly repetitive (while not as defensive as lancer or quirky/fast as geomancer).  This is why I suggested added status procs to Tier1 and UnFury attacks to Tier 2 (while still being blocked by M-EV/Shell).  You are right in saying that reflect ring's should be changed (to null berserk and not to usurp magic ring with null: silence).  You are right in saying that venetian shield and white robe halving an entire build is probably too defensive (drop halve: bolt because there's already enough anti-lightning gear.  I say that an entire build is being halved because Wizards always do more with flare than the faster elemental spells so it's folly to run elemental spells and flare on most wizards.  The only exception may be elemental boosted Bolt4 vs. Flare [which is another good reason to exclude bolt from these equips], but both are too slow.)

However, I wish to challenge your unstated implication that we should nerf everything else because much of your evidence doesn't really hold water.  Raise2 averages 80% now and if you tried running 100% Raise2, your units are all exposing themselves to faith based attacks.  Mages shouldn't be automatically absorbing holy for the same reason why people shouldn't automatically slap on projectile guard; unless you are going to use it constructively to strengthen your team's synergy, it's too specific a metagame counter to merit notice.  Also, Damned, because of the changes to how faith and reaction abilities work, many holy casters CAN and do 1HKO or 2HKO physical units as well.  Stop thinking of mages as only fighting other mages: black magic now does a reasonable amount (more than summoner and scholar) to 40 Faith.  Yeah, holy may do more for the same CT, but black mage has AoE; nobody should be using black magic just for flare because that necessitates short charge.  Look at the other options: Fire2/3's CT and AoE are comparable to summoner, but with more damage; elementally boosted bolt4 does enough damage to rival flare while not being reflectable while AoE bolt attacks can easily be used (see my Broken team) on a 4x absorption team which completely obviates the need for cure and greatly speeds up the offense; ice functions as a MP efficient option and as an anti-metagame weapon because of how many people are trying to absorb fire/dark.
As for the spell guns, Damned, they really are not as good as black magic when used for spells.  A competent black mage with a black robe does more damage (especially off faith rod) because such a black mage ALWAYS will use Tier 2 or 3 spell rather than using the Tier 1 spell at 60%.  The arguments about evasion and instant attacks are mostly spurious.  If you synchronized your team correctly, you shouldn't be getting mid-charged (nor should it be a serious issue) and nobody runs M-EV right now except on overall evasion teams or as an afterthought on the venetian shield/kaiser plate.  The spell guns are currently broken because of high WP, leading to Kagesougi spam, which is broken and will be addressed in the next update.  The solution is simple: force the guns to always proc the Tier 3 spells and lower the WP by 4-5.

Unrelated, but:
Quote
However, Stigma magic being back to AoE just bugs me because of the sheer amount of things it cures and the fact that it hits the Monk using it at instant speed and that it's basically 100% successful.
Not really a problem.  If we compare this to Esuna (which people always run at Good/Best compat), that too is 100%, but is at range.  It's a fair tradeoff for the speed of the monk ability.  Also, many white mages are strictly support and are more likely to use Esuna compared to a monk with stigma magic (who may also have a KO at hand).  Considering most good teams have their mages with some innate MP restoration abilities, MP costs aren't really an issue for priest.
« Last Edit: May 03, 2012, 06:18:44 AM by formerdeathcorps »
The destruction of the will is the rape of the mind.
The dogmas of every era are nothing but the fantasies of those in power; their dreams are our waking nightmares.
The old (un)wise bastard
Dome [Posts: 4758] Logged
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  • [May 03, 2012, 07:47:07 AM]
Re: ☢ ☢ ☢ FFT Arena AI Tournament Season 1 ☢ ☢ ☢
« Reply #50 on: May 03, 2012, 07:47:07 AM »
Quote from: FFMaster in the other thread
No idea why there are 2 threads. Closing this one and unstickying. Go to the other thread.
<3

Anyway, fun matches so far. MOAR!

Friends are like boobs:
Some are big, some are small
Some are real, some are fake
☯☯☯☯
FFMaster [Posts: 2459] Logged
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  • [May 03, 2012, 07:59:28 AM]
Re: ☢ ☢ ☢ FFT Arena AI Tournament Season 1 ☢ ☢ ☢
« Reply #51 on: May 03, 2012, 07:59:28 AM »
Edited the 3rd post with all the video links.

☢ CAUTION CAUTION ☢ CAUTION CAUTION ☢
Not a Girl
mucus [Posts: 91] Logged
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  • [May 03, 2012, 04:48:57 PM]
Re: ☢ ☢ ☢ FFT Arena AI Tournament Season 1 ☢ ☢ ☢
« Reply #52 on: May 03, 2012, 04:48:57 PM »
My predictions for Round of 16:

Gaignun vs Shade
mucus vs dacheat
Squidgy vs Angelus
Wiz vs DomieV
AeroGP vs Fanatic
iamBQB vs Barren
fdc vs CT5
Ryason55 vs Celdia
dacheat could rally give me a run for my money.
dacheat [Posts: 98] Logged
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  • [May 03, 2012, 05:23:47 PM]
Re: ☢ ☢ ☢ FFT Arena AI Tournament Season 1 ☢ ☢ ☢
« Reply #53 on: May 03, 2012, 05:23:47 PM »
dacheat could rally give me a run for my money.

If I can put you into sandbag mode early I think I can win. My Holy users like to pre-charge Holy onto downed units that are about to reraise so that might hurt your Mad Science spamming a bit. That's easier said then done though since your Scholars are so tanky.
Point, Shoot, Reload, Repeat
Barren [Posts: 1707] Logged
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  • [May 03, 2012, 07:43:07 PM]
Re: ☢ ☢ ☢ FFT Arena AI Tournament Season 1 ☢ ☢ ☢
« Reply #54 on: May 03, 2012, 07:43:07 PM »
FFT Arena Season One A.I. Tournament Match 5 FFMaster vs Dome

The rest of my matches thus far will come between tonight and tomorrow night

He who fears being conquered is sure of defeat
The old (un)wise bastard
Dome [Posts: 4758] Logged
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  • [May 03, 2012, 08:00:14 PM]
Re: ☢ ☢ ☢ FFT Arena AI Tournament Season 1 ☢ ☢ ☢
« Reply #55 on: May 03, 2012, 08:00:14 PM »

Friends are like boobs:
Some are big, some are small
Some are real, some are fake
Zareb [Posts: 73] Logged
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  • [May 03, 2012, 08:02:52 PM]
Re: ☢ ☢ ☢ FFT Arena AI Tournament Season 1 ☢ ☢ ☢
« Reply #56 on: May 03, 2012, 08:02:52 PM »

I like your last suggestion.

Now your blood travels through the veins of our history
It bursts forth in boiling black clouds from the wrists of kings
The old (un)wise bastard
Dome [Posts: 4758] Logged
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  • [May 03, 2012, 08:04:54 PM]
Re: ☢ ☢ ☢ FFT Arena AI Tournament Season 1 ☢ ☢ ☢
« Reply #57 on: May 03, 2012, 08:04:54 PM »
TBH...That's what I did for FFT: Plus XD

Friends are like boobs:
Some are big, some are small
Some are real, some are fake
Bad code, beware! The NOPs are coming to eat you!
formerdeathcorps [Posts: 1307] Logged
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  • [May 03, 2012, 08:57:03 PM]
Re: ☢ ☢ ☢ FFT Arena AI Tournament Season 1 ☢ ☢ ☢
« Reply #58 on: May 03, 2012, 08:57:03 PM »

The destruction of the will is the rape of the mind.
The dogmas of every era are nothing but the fantasies of those in power; their dreams are our waking nightmares.
Unreliable as a Mime.
The Damned [Posts: 2036] Logged
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  • [May 03, 2012, 10:49:26 PM]
Re: ☢ ☢ ☢ FFT Arena AI Tournament Season 1 ☢ ☢ ☢
« Reply #59 on: May 03, 2012, 10:49:26 PM »
(Another wasted day, another reply for me.)

Might as well do this before I clean out this sluggishly slow computer of mine, especially since re-doing Team Submissions can wait a bit longer before I just go on that week-long hiatus.

FFT Arena Season One A.I. Tournament Match 5 FFMaster vs Dome

The rest of my matches thus far will come between tonight and tomorrow night

Good to know. Again, remember not to burn yourself out Barren. [/nag]

Thanks again.


I can only hope that my match doesn't end up boring everyone to death, especially when it's apparent that I'm going to get my ass kicked. I preemptively allow you to skip ahead, Barren.


You are right in saying that wizard as a main class is inferior to summoner (which is why I suggested innate immunities to silence and berserk) and that wizard as a skillset is fairly repetitive (while not as defensive as lancer or quirky/fast as geomancer).  This is why I suggested added status procs to Tier1 and UnFury attacks to Tier 2 (while still being blocked by M-EV/Shell).  You are right in saying that reflect ring's should be changed (to null berserk and not to usurp magic ring with null: silence).  You are right in saying that venetian shield and white robe halving an entire build is probably too defensive (drop halve: bolt because there's already enough anti-lightning gear.  I say that an entire build is being halved because Wizards always do more with flare than the faster elemental spells so it's folly to run elemental spells and flare on most wizards.  The only exception may be elemental boosted Bolt4 vs. Flare [which is another good reason to exclude bolt from these equips], but both are too slow.)

Well it's good to know that we can at least still agree on some things, though (and as hypocritical as this may seem in the face of some of Embargo's generics) I don't think innate Silence and/or Berserk immunity is the way to go about it here. I agree with everything else though, even as untested as "UnFury" abilities are.

I'll use spoilers for everything else just because a) I don't want to clog up this thread and b) it actually separates things more easily.






I already addressed the Stigma Magic thing, so let's just say that we'll have to agree to disagree, if only because I doubt you'll be able to convince me why it deserves to still cancel Charm even if you managed to convince me that it deserves its AoE (which you haven't).

Omission EDIT: Stupid omissions finally fixed.
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