Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

News:

Season 6 Map Selection  (Read 686 times)
Pages: [1]
Gaignun [Posts: 325] Logged
  • View Profile
  • share
  • [March 18, 2012, 09:33:42 AM]
Season 6 Map Selection
« on: March 18, 2012, 09:33:42 AM »
I would like to arrange the map selection for season 6 here.

I believe that a team's design, and not the map on which it does battle, should determine the outcome of a match.   One of the largest conflicting factors to this criterion is a map's size.  Some designs naturally synchronise with large maps, others small.  In attempt to excuse this factor, we change the map's size between rounds.  Other conflicting factors, such as bottlenecks, poor placement, and so on, are less excusable.  As the majority of FFT's maps contain at least one of these other factors, the majority are ill-suited for an assessment of sound team design.  While I am comfortable with throwing out all of these maps, I would suspect the resultant lack of map variety will not sit well with most others.  So, it is our task to separate the bad from the irredeemable.

I'll kick things off with my own arrangement.  I've sorted them in terms of size.  Here are my size qualifiers.

Small
  • Teams placed closely enough to make contact within the first turn
  • The majority of the opposing team's units are within striking distance at all times during battle

Large
  • Teams cannot make contact within their first turn
  • The map is large enough for units to attempt to stay outside of striking distance
  • Teams are subjected to the risk of spreading out and fighting on several fronts

Naturally, most maps will not fit all of a size's qualifiers in practise.  For example, Colliery Underground First Floor (028) is large enough to be labeled large, but fighting tends to be clustered on its high ground, so teams stick together.  This is where medium maps - which meet the small and large qualifiers halfway - come in.

I deem maps guilty of
  • bottlenecks (ex. Gates of Limberry Castle)
  • wide unit placement (ex. Inside of Riovanes Castle)
  • Unfair unit placement (ex. Weapon Storage of Yardow - team 1 is split across different heights, while team 2 is not)
to be the irredeemable kind.  Of course, classification of such maps is subjective.

Anyway, here is my arrangement.  I regard maps in bold to be of high quality.   Maps I regard to be nearly irredeemable but are present for the sake of variety are italicised.  If I believe that a map has undesirable features, I will indicate so in parentheses. 




Here are the maps that didn't make the cut with my reasons for cutting them.


And finally, here are maps whose fate is undecided

« Last Edit: March 19, 2012, 01:28:06 AM by Gaignun »
Barren [Posts: 1760] Logged
  • View Profile
  • share
  • [March 18, 2012, 02:36:32 PM]
Re: Season 6 Map Selection
« Reply #1 on: March 18, 2012, 02:36:32 PM »
If you want to you can pick the maps for the brackets in the tournament after registration is done. You seem to have a pretty good idea what maps are good and what aren't so good.

Keep calm and stay classy, kupo!
:D
CT5Holy [Posts: 924] Logged
  • View Profile
  • share
  • [March 18, 2012, 05:43:29 PM]
Re: Season 6 Map Selection
« Reply #2 on: March 18, 2012, 05:43:29 PM »
Is the team split on maps like 95 and 26 a problem in your opinion because the team that's split might need say 2 casts of Haste 2 to get the whole party hasted vs 1 for the team that isn't split up?
I ask because I think those two maps are fine - when the fighting actually starts, there isn't this huge separation of units like with 4+ jump units on Banished Fort (115).

Speaking of Banished Fort, I think that map, and some others in your 'Cut' category, can be salvaged if we change the starting locations a bit. Some possible changes, if people are willing to make them:

Banished Fort (115): have the teams start in the two other corners. Granted, there may still be some splitting up, but it won't be the huge extreme that possibly leads to quick 4v3/4v2s that we have now.
Bed Desert (82): Have team 2 start towards the middle, i.e. around where Ramza and co. would start against Balk.
Inside Castle Gate in Lesalia (97): both teams starting placement should be closer together. Current placement leads to 2 2v2s.
Underground Book Storage First Floor (57): Have all units start on the bigger half of the map? This map plays out ok for the most part I think.
Zarghidas Trade City (47): Have both teams start in the middle of the row instead of in the corner. (Keep current distance, just place units in the middle, so the fighting is more likely to happen on the ground) (I hope the wording is clear >_>)

Of course, if we make changes to the starting placement, it might lead to unforeseen problems, which would be bad. And it'd take time, and I think most people want a tournament to go underway as soon as possible. So maybe these will be things to consider for the future.

That being said, I think the following maps are all worthy of inclusion:
At the Gate of Limberry Castle (2) (19): This map is fine. It's not super tight, and you'll get the classic melee guys fighting in front, mages casting from far back image.
Besrodio's House (41): I agree with you, if the golden contraption is gone, it's a playable map.
Chapel of Orbonne Monastery (62): I think it's ok, if flying/teleporting units are the only concern. Those units will likely fly/port back up at some point. The (slightly) bigger concern is if a unit without fly/teleport gets knocked off the main stage. But even with that possibility I think it's fine.
Outside Castle Gate in Lesalia (98): This map is fine, aside from the map being incomplete and targeting issues. Very playable though.

And a map I disagree with:
UBS3 (59): Absolutely needs to go. I'm surprised you've even considered it - bottlenecks and the limited movement for 3 jump units, as you've mentioned, make this map pretty lame. Especially the bottlenecks! That's like the whole map. XD

Everything else I think looks good.

Also, what about Arena (116)? =P

Winner of the 1st FFT 1.3 AI Tourney
Gaignun [Posts: 325] Logged
  • View Profile
  • share
  • [March 19, 2012, 01:07:31 AM]
Re: Season 6 Map Selection
« Reply #3 on: March 19, 2012, 01:07:31 AM »
If you want to you can pick the maps for the brackets in the tournament after registration is done. You seem to have a pretty good idea what maps are good and what aren't so good.

Sounds good.  I'll do that, then.

Is the team split on maps like 95 and 26 a problem in your opinion because the team that's split might need say 2 casts of Haste 2 to get the whole party hasted vs 1 for the team that isn't split up?

Yes.  The team on the altar on map 95 begins at a slight disadvantage.  Putting both teams in opposing corners would fix that, but maybe we can use it anyway, as apart from placement it is a good map.

Quote
Banished Fort (115): have the teams start in the two other corners. Granted, there may still be some splitting up, but it won't be the huge extreme that possibly leads to quick 4v3/4v2s that we have now.
Bed Desert (82): Have team 2 start towards the middle, i.e. around where Ramza and co. would start against Balk.
Inside Castle Gate in Lesalia (97): both teams starting placement should be closer together. Current placement leads to 2 2v2s.
Underground Book Storage First Floor (57): Have all units start on the bigger half of the map? This map plays out ok for the most part I think.
Zarghidas Trade City (47): Have both teams start in the middle of the row instead of in the corner. (Keep current distance, just place units in the middle, so the fighting is more likely to happen on the ground) (I hope the wording is clear >_>)

Good suggestions.  I haven't modified positions before, though.  Does anyone who has know if it is straightforward?  As for Banished Fort, I would like to keep it cut anyway, as units will inevitably follow the bottleneck around the fort no matter the placement.

Quote
...I think the following maps are all worthy of inclusion:
At the Gate of Limberry Castle (2) (19): This map is fine. It's not super tight, and you'll get the classic melee guys fighting in front, mages casting from far back image.

I just checked it.  For some reason, I thought teams started on the walls.  It looks like it could pass as a medium map with the current placement.

Quote
Chapel of Orbonne Monastery (62): I think it's ok, if flying/teleporting units are the only concern. Those units will likely fly/port back up at some point. The (slightly) bigger concern is if a unit without fly/teleport gets knocked off the main stage. But even with that possibility I think it's fine.

The fact that there is a safe haven on a small map at all sticks with me.  I believe it is unfair to melee-based teams.  Getting knocked off, like you said, only detracts further from it, even though the possibility is remote. 

[/quote]

Quote
Outside Castle Gate in Lesalia (98): This map is fine, aside from the map being incomplete and targeting issues. Very playable though.

I'm in agreement.  Let's include it for now, then.

Quote
And a map I disagree with:
UBS3 (59): Absolutely needs to go. I'm surprised you've even considered it - bottlenecks and the limited movement for 3 jump units, as you've mentioned, make this map pretty lame. Especially the bottlenecks! That's like the whole map. XD

I'm glad you think so, too.  I'll put it on the list of cut maps for now.

Quote
Also, what about Arena (116)? =P

Whoops.  It should be on the list of undecided maps.  It currently breaks into two sets of 2v2.  If teams are moved to opposing corners, I will label it a medium map.
:D
CT5Holy [Posts: 924] Logged
  • View Profile
  • share
  • [March 19, 2012, 02:09:22 AM]
Re: Season 6 Map Selection
« Reply #4 on: March 19, 2012, 02:09:22 AM »
Oh, I should also mention that I am in favor of including Weapon Storage of Yardow (26), because the map plays fine and I don't have a big problem with the split height thing.

For Arena (116), we could just line them up in the middle, like my proposed change for Zarghidas (47).

EDIT: I'm also giving a frowny face to Bervenia Volcano (75). Lava makes for awkward movement.
« Last Edit: March 21, 2012, 12:13:45 AM by CT5Holy »
Winner of the 1st FFT 1.3 AI Tourney
Gaignun [Posts: 325] Logged
  • View Profile
  • share
  • [March 22, 2012, 10:16:38 AM]
Re: Season 6 Map Selection
« Reply #5 on: March 22, 2012, 10:16:38 AM »
EDIT: I'm also giving a frowny face to Bervenia Volcano (75). Lava makes for awkward movement.

I have it on the list for its unique features, if anything.  It is the only map that lets Geomancers utilise their "Move on Lava" ability, and one of the few maps on which they can use Lava Ball.

One negative point about Gates of Limberry Castle 2 (19) that I caught recently is that the camera is terrible.  The walls constantly obstruct the action, which makes it difficult to both watch and commentate.  Given that the medium maps currently outnumber both the large and small, I'm willing to strike it from the list, if only for aesthetic reasons.  Medium maps will be assigned to the third round besides, so we won't be seeing as many rounds played on them, anyway.

On a different note, how does reserving a small selection of maps for the grand finals sound?  The maps would be as balanced as possible so no single team can win via shenanigans (eg. Geomancers running amok on Bervenia Volcano, for instance).  I'm thinking of setting aside Arena (provided its placement is fixed) as one of these maps.  Also, let me echo past requests that the grand finals be a best of five.   The map arrangement in terms size could be
  • small
  • large
  • medium
  • medium
  • medium
« Last Edit: March 22, 2012, 10:23:27 AM by Gaignun »
:D
CT5Holy [Posts: 924] Logged
  • View Profile
  • share
  • [March 22, 2012, 06:25:30 PM]
Re: Season 6 Map Selection
« Reply #6 on: March 22, 2012, 06:25:30 PM »
Bervenia Volcano: Geomancers aren't used that much right now though. Overall it still hurts teams a lot IMO.

Gates of Limberry 2: Fair enough.

Agree on best of five for finals, but disagree on reserving maps. That's -5 good maps for all the other rounds.

Winner of the 1st FFT 1.3 AI Tourney
Gaignun [Posts: 325] Logged
  • View Profile
  • share
  • [March 22, 2012, 10:33:44 PM]
Re: Season 6 Map Selection
« Reply #7 on: March 22, 2012, 10:33:44 PM »
The five maps would still be used in other matches.
:D
CT5Holy [Posts: 924] Logged
  • View Profile
  • share
  • [March 23, 2012, 04:33:48 AM]
Re: Season 6 Map Selection
« Reply #8 on: March 23, 2012, 04:33:48 AM »
Oh. In that case reserved set of 5 for finals sounds good.

Winner of the 1st FFT 1.3 AI Tourney
Pages: [1]