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philsov [Posts: 4599] Logged
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  • [March 31, 2011, 05:30:35 PM]
1.3 AI Tournament S5 Rule Check/Discussion
« on: March 31, 2011, 05:30:35 PM »
With the advent of Season 5, there will be a shift in the ruleset to introduce new concepts while making sure some previous team combinations are no longer possible.

1) A team will consist of 4 units, leveled in their own class at level 35.  These can be any male/female generic or any monster -- yes, all families are available, but one specie is tentatively banned, see below.  
2) The Br and Fa of all units must be between 40 and 70.  The maximum brave for the entire team is 240, and the minimum faith for the entire team is 220.  
3) Zodiac selection will be any of the standard 12.  

4) There is no JP cap whatsoever.  Generics have free reign over everything that is normally available (ie, there is no teleport2).  Mages are free to have full spellbooks, fighters can have damage split, and everything inbetween.  However, there are banned abilities, to be discussed below.  

5) Limit one of anything and everything.  Every action ability, reaction, support, movement, and piece of equipment can only be found once per team.  
5a) Innates count.  Ninja means no one else can have two swords.  Mime means you cannot have a monk/martial arts, mediator/monster talk, or thief/concentrate.  
5b) Throw and Draw Out skillsets can only appear once per team.
5c) This item quantity limit does not apply to Item, Throw, and Draw Out quantity/ability use.  
5d) Regarding monsters, there is a limit of one monster per family.
5d1) Monster action/RSM selection does not interfere with human selection.  You are free to have a human with critical quick and a bomb on the same team.

6) Equipment is limited to everything that is buyable from normal shops, minus thief hat and bracer, plus defender, holy lance, and ultimus bow.  No poaching trophies, no DD move finds, or other stealable rares.  

7) Fights are best two out of three, on randomized maps, with an even spread of medium, large, and small sized categories.  Maps with an overabundance of depth 2+ water (Gate of Limberry II)  and overall poor positioning (END) will be removed from the pool.

Banned abilities/monsters:
Cure 4 - 2 AoE full party heal
Meteor - AoE is too large
Bahamut - AoE too large
Leviathan - AoE too large
Zodiac - AoE too large
Chirijiraden - Banned via equipment selection
Masamume - Banned via equipment selection
Elixir - Banned via equipment selection
Flare 2 - Obliviates too much other magic
Nameless Dance - Map wide unevadeable but random status effects

Monster Skill - Enables too many too powerful abilities
Magic Attack Up combined with Draw Out
Hamedo

Vampire - Blood Suck is broken in this context due to loss of control and its plague-like spreading (this was a potential problem last season, but with the removal of elemental weaknesses the threat is more real)

~

There will be no modification of abilities or items for fine-tuned tweaking.  It is a very slippery slope and would take months to complete.  The stuff that's too strong gets removed, and the stuff that's too weak will stay thusly.  
« Last Edit: April 14, 2011, 05:07:59 PM by philsov »
Just another rebel plotting rebellion.
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Dome [Posts: 4740] Logged
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  • [March 31, 2011, 05:48:35 PM]
Re: 1.3 AI Tournament S5 Rule Check/Discussion
« Reply #1 on: March 31, 2011, 05:48:35 PM »
I still dislike the idea of playing this on 1.3, but I think I'm going to submit a team anyway
Nice ruleset, will force people to use more different setups

Friends are like boobs:
Some are big, some are small
Some are real, some are fake
Gaignun [Posts: 323] Logged
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  • [March 31, 2011, 06:17:22 PM]
Re: 1.3 AI Tournament S5 Rule Check/Discussion
« Reply #2 on: March 31, 2011, 06:17:22 PM »
I have a few questions.  Keep in mind that I do not know 1.3038's RSM.

1) Hamedo: in or out?
2) DrawOut + MAtkUP: in or out?
3) Is it one of each skill set or one of each ability?  If it's one of each ability, may I have four units with DrawOut?
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Xifanie (Webmistress) [Posts: 3485] Logged
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  • [March 31, 2011, 06:24:55 PM]
Re: 1.3 AI Tournament S5 Rule Check/Discussion
« Reply #3 on: March 31, 2011, 06:24:55 PM »
Good luck to the host managing memory cards to make sure all teams are legit.

<R999> My target market is not FFT mod players
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Wiz [Posts: 763] Logged
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  • [March 31, 2011, 06:58:23 PM]
Re: 1.3 AI Tournament S5 Rule Check/Discussion
« Reply #4 on: March 31, 2011, 06:58:23 PM »
I have a few questions.  Keep in mind that I do not know 1.3038's RSM.

1) Hamedo: in or out?
2) DrawOut + MAtkUP: in or out?
3) Is it one of each skill set or one of each ability?  If it's one of each ability, may I have four units with DrawOut?

1. Personally, I'd say out because it makse melee-on-melee action too bland then and it's too OP since it bypasses evasion just like meatbone slash does when hitting Elmdor through his Genji Shield + Blade Grasp.

2. Out, damage output's too high with an MA stacked unit.

3. Skills/Abilities are the same, you mean skillsets <_< You can have more than one skillset yes, just as long as it isn't two+ of the same unit that has an innate such as 2+ Samurai. So if your approach is to go on a mage rampage, that's cool but keep mind their synergy will be severly crippled from the gear limitations as well. Black Hood, Golden Hairpin, Flash Hat, Green Beret/Holy Miter/Twist Headband would be your choices if there were not any armor classes on your team.

Edit: Auto-Potion + X Potion Works

Should this be considered as a usable ability or not? I think so, since mages for the most part have less than 300 HP and healing up more than half of it would suit them better than damage split due to their squishy nature.

^ To get it, just set potion and hi-potion to 0 in FFTastic in the inventory menu. That simple.
« Last Edit: March 31, 2011, 07:34:29 PM by Wiz »
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Gaignun [Posts: 323] Logged
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  • [April 01, 2011, 01:27:34 AM]
Re: 1.3 AI Tournament S5 Rule Check/Discussion
« Reply #5 on: April 01, 2011, 01:27:34 AM »
Quote from: Xifanie
Good luck to the host managing memory cards to make sure all teams are legit.

Awk should make a quick deal of it, provided an entry format is enforced.

Quote from: Wiz
Edit: Auto-Potion + X Potion Works

Does that work for the second player, too?
« Last Edit: April 01, 2011, 01:28:32 AM by Gaignun »
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Barren [Posts: 1575] Logged
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  • [April 01, 2011, 02:24:33 AM]
Re: 1.3 AI Tournament S5 Rule Check/Discussion
« Reply #6 on: April 01, 2011, 02:24:33 AM »
Cant wait for Season 5 to get underway :) I've already thought of a team I wanted to try

I can help manage the memory cards and be sure the teams are legal

He who fears being conquered is sure of defeat
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Wiz [Posts: 763] Logged
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  • [April 01, 2011, 03:06:25 AM]
Re: 1.3 AI Tournament S5 Rule Check/Discussion
« Reply #7 on: April 01, 2011, 03:06:25 AM »
Does that work for the second player, too?

It doesn't strangely enough :/

If there was a way to fix this that'd be awesome.

Fortunately, the AI for both teams has a limited number of items because throw units would've been throwing rune blades instead of ice brands otherwise. If Team 1 (Top Row)'s item list could be fixed, there should be for Team 2 as well.

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Winner of the 2nd 1.3 AI Tournament
PX_Timefordeath [Posts: 1781] Logged
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  • [April 01, 2011, 03:41:28 AM]
Re: 1.3 AI Tournament S5 Rule Check/Discussion
« Reply #8 on: April 01, 2011, 03:41:28 AM »
Yeah, there's an easier way. Patcher, change Potion to Z=15, but that's too powerful in an AI tournament. I think the preferred number was 50?
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Wiz [Posts: 763] Logged
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  • [April 01, 2011, 03:53:18 AM]
Re: 1.3 AI Tournament S5 Rule Check/Discussion
« Reply #9 on: April 01, 2011, 03:53:18 AM »
*Looks back at Auto-Potion Thread*

There really wasn't a consensus on it. However,

Quote
There will be no modification of abilities or items for fine-tuned tweaking.  It is a very slippery slope and would take months to complete.  The stuff that's too strong gets removed, and the stuff that's too weak will stay thusly.

So either it's in or it's out. Personally, I think it's fine.

PX, you still see it as OP even though most fighting units do over 150+ damage and that it could only be put on one unit?


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Squidgy [Posts: 213] Logged
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  • [April 01, 2011, 04:19:07 AM]
Re: 1.3 AI Tournament S5 Rule Check/Discussion
« Reply #10 on: April 01, 2011, 04:19:07 AM »
So... "techincally" for Throw: Sword, Ninja Sword, Dictionary, and Stick are all separate abilities, right? Same point for Jump, Geomancy, Black Magic, etc.

EDIT: Oh, and if Hamedo is allowed then I'm totally making a naked Samurai to bait the AI. "I could use a spell, but he's only got 5 hp... I'll whack him with my rod!"
« Last Edit: April 01, 2011, 04:25:33 AM by Squidgy »
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Wiz [Posts: 763] Logged
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  • [April 01, 2011, 06:47:08 AM]
Re: 1.3 AI Tournament S5 Rule Check/Discussion
« Reply #11 on: April 01, 2011, 06:47:08 AM »
Quote
So... "techincally" for Throw: Sword, Ninja Sword, Dictionary, and Stick are all separate abilities, right? Same point for Jump, Geomancy, Black Magic, etc.

Correct. Even though Spell Edge and Papyrus Plates both have the same WP, they are still considered different abilities so they should count.

For jumping, if you gave a unit the max vertical and horizontal, then you'd have to go to the 2nd best if you decided to use jump again for another unit.

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Barren [Posts: 1575] Logged
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  • [April 01, 2011, 10:51:47 AM]
Re: 1.3 AI Tournament S5 Rule Check/Discussion
« Reply #12 on: April 01, 2011, 10:51:47 AM »
I'm surprised that you Wiz still remember my auto-potion question from a while ago.....I just safely assumed that auto-potion would be useless because of the AI using the lowest available after getting answers from philsov and archael at the time.

Your video does show that Auto-Potion can heal for 150 after all but if it doesn't work for player 2 then auto potion would be risky to use then for the player considering they can get either the best healing or the weakest healing

Unless someone somehow finds a way to get auto-potion to heal for 150 on the player 2 i don't think auto-potion would be seriously recommended :\

He who fears being conquered is sure of defeat
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Wiz [Posts: 763] Logged
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  • [April 01, 2011, 11:47:14 AM]
Re: 1.3 AI Tournament S5 Rule Check/Discussion
« Reply #13 on: April 01, 2011, 11:47:14 AM »
@Barren: Fix for Auto-Potion

v
v
v
Yeah, there's an easier way. Patcher, change Potion to Z=15, but that's too powerful in an AI tournament. I think the preferred number was 50?

http://www.youtube.com/user/Wizdaddy714 ... check out my Youtube Channel and subscribe.
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Barren [Posts: 1575] Logged
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  • [April 01, 2011, 11:54:09 AM]
Re: 1.3 AI Tournament S5 Rule Check/Discussion
« Reply #14 on: April 01, 2011, 11:54:09 AM »
Ahh I see...I missed it somehow....well thanks for pointing it out anyways :)

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philsov [Posts: 4599] Logged
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  • [April 01, 2011, 01:14:12 PM]
Re: 1.3 AI Tournament S5 Rule Check/Discussion
« Reply #15 on: April 01, 2011, 01:14:12 PM »
Quote
So... "techincally" for Throw: Sword, Ninja Sword, Dictionary, and Stick are all separate abilities, right?

Yup.  Just remember that 4x Ninja is against the rules due to their innate. 

Quote
1) Hamedo: in or out?
2) DrawOut + MAtkUP: in or out?

1) I was on the fence about it, but squidgy swayed me.  I'm all for out.
2) Out. 

Quote
Fortunately, the AI for both teams has a limited number of items

Nope.  Under enemy-AI control the item quantity is infinite.  Rune Blades don't get thrown because of enemy level funsies.

Just another rebel plotting rebellion.
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Barren [Posts: 1575] Logged
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  • [April 01, 2011, 01:42:59 PM]
Re: 1.3 AI Tournament S5 Rule Check/Discussion
« Reply #16 on: April 01, 2011, 01:42:59 PM »
Just one question regarding the One innate only class...can for example a archer with concentrate and a thief with innate concentrate be on the same team...or does the archer have to switch that with lets say...attack up?

He who fears being conquered is sure of defeat
Dol [Posts: 304] Logged
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  • [April 01, 2011, 02:40:19 PM]
Re: 1.3 AI Tournament S5 Rule Check/Discussion
« Reply #17 on: April 01, 2011, 02:40:19 PM »
Man, its been a while since I played a normal run of 1.3.  I'm going to have to check the Master guide for a while.

A couple questions/comments that I see so far:

1)  At one point I recall that Accumulate didnt work correctly for one side.  Has that been fixed or is it still busted?

2)  I'd vote that Porky's Nose Breath counts the same as Steal Heart, so you cant have both.  Just to be clear.

3)  Can I request maps to be removed?  I really hate Warjilis and Zirkilie due to the choke points.

I guess thats it for now.  I'll have to test some ideas to see if they might be broken or just good.


« Last Edit: April 01, 2011, 02:44:03 PM by Dol »
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philsov [Posts: 4599] Logged
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  • [April 01, 2011, 02:50:50 PM]
Re: 1.3 AI Tournament S5 Rule Check/Discussion
« Reply #18 on: April 01, 2011, 02:50:50 PM »
Just one question regarding the One innate only class...can for example a archer with concentrate and a thief with innate concentrate be on the same team...or does the archer have to switch that with lets say...attack up?

No.  Concentrate only appears once per team, innate or otherwise.  If you have an archer with concentrate you cannot have a thief, and vice versa.  You can have multiple innate-bearing classes but the innates themselves cannot overlap.

Quote
1)  At one point I recall that Accumulate didnt work correctly for one side.  Has that been fixed or is it still busted?

2)  I'd vote that Porky's Nose Breath counts the same as Steal Heart, so you cant have both.  Just to be clear.

1) Still busted due to target mechanics, iirc.

2) Possibly.  Nose Breath did get nerfed, at least.

Quote
I'm going to have to check the Master guide for a while.

Planar Magic got a hefty perk, Archers have a brand new skillset, and monsters got an overhaul with a newish bank of abilities and the notable loss of all their elemental weaknesses.  Ohhh, and Mimes are 7 move 7 jump with lower multiplers all around.  A 35 male mime is ~260 HP, 12 PA, 10 MA, and 9 Sp
« Last Edit: April 01, 2011, 02:54:46 PM by philsov »
Just another rebel plotting rebellion.
Fighting Spirit
Barren [Posts: 1575] Logged
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  • [April 01, 2011, 02:56:18 PM]
Re: 1.3 AI Tournament S5 Rule Check/Discussion
« Reply #19 on: April 01, 2011, 02:56:18 PM »
Thanks for the tip phil

He who fears being conquered is sure of defeat
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