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Archael
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  • [November 02, 2010, 10:47:49 PM]
Dead Project (other topic got locked for some reason)
« on: November 02, 2010, 10:47:49 PM »
I know you said you're going to release a PPF of what is done so far, my concern was that you release a PPF of an incomplete patch (I am aware that Remix is FAAAARRR from completion) and then have zero progress in actual work for another 10 months.

Then again, an incomplete game is better than no game I guess.

I want to play finished FFT Remix, not a version at 20% completion. My question was if it's ever going to get finished, because at this rate, it seems like we won't ever see a finished version of Remix. It's been 2 years already.

(and please stop deleting my posts, I am raising a valid concern here)
Cheetah [Posts: 3656]
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  • [November 03, 2010, 03:56:18 AM]
Re: Dead Project (other topic got locked for some reason)
« Reply #1 on: November 03, 2010, 03:56:18 AM »
It most other forums I frequent people who constantly make posts about when something is going to be released are generally considered rude and I was under the impression that is was an unspoken and sometimes public rule about not doing it.

Hacking is a very time consuming hobby. It is great that you are excited about Zozma's patch, but find better ways of showing it other than complaining. This project is Zozma's hobby for his enjoyment, if you happen to get any enjoyment out of it consider yourself lucky (not entitled).

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Archael
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  • [November 03, 2010, 04:36:09 AM]
Re: Dead Project (other topic got locked for some reason)
« Reply #2 on: November 03, 2010, 04:36:09 AM »
It is Zozma's hobby for his enjoyment, but it's also a hobby that has been abandoned and currently stands incomplete without any sign of continuation. That is disappointing for everyone that 1) Contributed to help finish it. 2) Anyone that had any desire whatsoever to see it finished.

It's not simply a hobby once you gather a community around it as a project, Cheetah, and this is where the "It's just a hobby!!!!" excuse falls apart. Projects drive towards completion. This is not what most of the "projects" that we start around here are. They are ideas that people dabble in, they are not projects.

Hacking is indeed very time consuming, but just because something is time consuming does not mean that you shouldn't properly measure the scope of your project against the reality of the time you are able / willing to put into it in order to finish it.

To put things into perspective, Cheetah, let's take your patch, FFT: Complete. You set some goals (modest goals, but completely reasonable ones for the time you spend online), you rationed your spare time to work on it, and you finished it. FFT: Complete is now a finished project, people can download it and play it for it's intended purpose. Congratulations! The work and ideas of the FFH members who got involved can now be proudly displayed as a playable game. Really good stuff.

Now let's compare it to FFT Remix. It set some extremely ambitious goals:
1) Tons of event and storyline edits
2) Entire new job / ability system
3) Tons of new character join up scenes
4) Res-structured storyline progression

The problem is that it's been 2 years in development, this forum hasn't seen real activity in over 9 months, AND it's nowhere near close to completion. Why? Maybe Zozma lost interest, but the more plausible scenario is simply that he set some goals that are too ambitious for the amount of time he spends online and the amount of time he was willing to work on this.

If a full hack is too much work for you (and this is too much for Zozma to finish ATM), then scope your game down to something you CAN finish.

A small game is better than no game, and that is what FFT Remix is currently.

Let's be realistic here. Unless Zozma tomorrow magically starts working on this project for 5 hours a day for 3 months straight, this project isn't getting finished in another 2 years. It's simply too much work for the amount of time / pace Zozma works at (currently Zero). This project is dead, and my point with this topic was to try and put things into perspective as to why it's a horrible idea and a waste of time to start things you can't finish, ESPECIALLY when you get other people involved. This really needs to change, so that FFH starts making actual finished, playable projects, and not dead forum sections.

PS: I am not complaining so much as trying to instigate change. I am just writing down what I have observed in this forum for the last 2 years. Abandonment. I love FFH, and it's disappointing to see forums like this waste people's ideas and time on a "project" that the original creator never had the direction / will / spare time to put together into something playable. A hacking site that doesn't finish anything it starts is a sad state of affairs, and you will find no one on this site that disagrees with this.
Cheetah [Posts: 3656]
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  • [November 03, 2010, 05:23:10 AM]
Re: Dead Project (other topic got locked for some reason)
« Reply #3 on: November 03, 2010, 05:23:10 AM »
It sounds like you have some good goals for the site Voldemort, but I don't see how repeatedly commenting about how this project is going no where is supporting those goals. FFT:Remix has seen a lot of development over the years, almost solely on the part of Zozma, and progress has slowed. Maybe it will be completed maybe it wont, it is just a fact of life that not all dreams come true. In the mean time it is tucked away in a nice place in the forums where people can check on what it is all about and Zozma can make the occasional update as he can. Ultimately it is his work and it is his decision about what he wants to do with it.

If you want to see projects that get completed then give people advice who are starting new ones, that is where you can initiate change. Or even better start your own new project. With these topics about projects being "dead" I think all you are doing is making people who are already feeling dejected that life doesn't allow them time to work on projects they enjoy feel even less motivated to work on them.

I appreciate the complements about FFT:C, but ultimately I don't even consider that project halfway done. I have an amazing translator who has made it possible for the sound novels to finally be experienced in English, but for the life of me I can't get the time or motivation to get them implemented. I'm a full time grad student with two part time jobs, and I'm considering quitting one or both my jobs to keep up with school. It fucking sucks because I love hacking this game but I know that I wont be doing it for the rest of my life. I think a lot of our other members are in similar situations

If your goal is to get projects like FFT:Remix and Mercenaries closed down and given up on then I think you are succeeding. If you honestly just want to see change in the community and how projects are approached then I think you need to change up your tactics.

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Archael
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  • [November 03, 2010, 05:30:43 AM]
Re: Dead Project (other topic got locked for some reason)
« Reply #4 on: November 03, 2010, 05:30:43 AM »
Quote
Ultimately it is his work and it is his decision about what he wants to do with it.

It's Zodiac's decision, ultimately it is Zodiac's site. Last time I checked Zodiac closes down projects that are going nowhere or have been incomplete + inactive for a prolonged amount of time. That rule's there for a reason.

Quote
If you want to see projects that get completed then give people advice who are starting new ones, that is where you can initiate change.

You can't stop 100 newbies from posting their idea on the forums - and that doesn't matter at all, because those ideas don't become "community" projects like FFT Remix, and they don't drain the site member resources / time - they just get ignored. But you can stop one idea that has 0 capability of seeing completion (like this one) from ever getting a forum section, becoming a "community project" and wasting people's time / work for 2 years straight like this one has without ever amounting to anything playable.

That is the major problem IMO. Dead forum sections which don't result in playable games. That's what the "hobby" is, making games. Not leaving games unfinished.

See the difference? If you raise the standards this kind of **** wouldn't be happening.


Quote
I appreciate the complements about FFT:C, but ultimately I don't even consider that project halfway done.

Don't try to draw attention away from the fact that FFT:Complete had clear, achievable goals established which were indeed met. FFT:Complete has a fully playable version out there right now that meets every single goal it set out to do. FFT Remix does not. After 2 years, going into 3. Don't try to dance around it.


Quote
If you honestly just want to see change in the community and how projects are approached then I think you need to change up your tactics.

Hey, I'm doing my part, analyzing what I see and putting it into a post so people can see for themselves what has happened here after 2 years (not much). At-least I'm doing my part for what I think is a positive change. What are you doing? Defending stagnation? You fix your tactics, then you may criticize mine.


But perhaps you're right. Maybe it's better to give up on dead projects like this one and focus on the new ideas entering the site. Quoting someone from chat:

"it's a colossus that will never be finished and he cant be reasoned with"

Very true.
Cheetah [Posts: 3656]
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  • [November 03, 2010, 06:00:29 AM]
Re: Dead Project (other topic got locked for some reason)
« Reply #5 on: November 03, 2010, 06:00:29 AM »
Okay so this is what I'm understanding from you Voldemort. You want the project closed. You want it closed because:

1. You believe it wont be finished.
2. It is a "community project" and is sucking away resources/time.
3. Is there any more?

Does that cover it or am I missing some?

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Archael
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  • [November 03, 2010, 06:16:44 AM]
Re: Dead Project (other topic got locked for some reason)
« Reply #6 on: November 03, 2010, 06:16:44 AM »
Missing tons. I don't care if it gets closed, that's not even up to me.

1. Correct.
2. It WAS a "community project" and it WAS indeed sucking away resources / time. Now it's just dead, people realized and jumped ship. Hence the lack of activity in here.
3. Yes:

I am just making a point about why it never went anywhere and was never going anywhere, so that maybe this situation can be avoided in the future. Why you're so against that seems just like the intent to play devil's advocate to me, nothing more. When Zozma releases his PPF at-least that'll give us something playable. 15% of what the project should have been, but hey, it's something.
Cheetah [Posts: 3656]
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  • [November 03, 2010, 07:12:03 AM]
Re: Dead Project (other topic got locked for some reason)
« Reply #7 on: November 03, 2010, 07:12:03 AM »
I find that I am no longer able to have a polite and reasonable conversation about this topic so I have chosen to respond to Voldemort in a PM.

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Archael
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  • [November 03, 2010, 07:17:58 AM]
Re: Dead Project (other topic got locked for some reason)
« Reply #8 on: November 03, 2010, 07:17:58 AM »
Your PM is here:
Quote
I'm really trying to be polite and patient with you Voldemort, like I usually am, to try and make a point that you can hopefully learn from. But honestly we have literally been playing this little game for years and it is really hard for me to care. You are generally just rude and harsh and I can accept that is just the way you come off online and I choose to generally just not cross paths with you to make life easier for me. However, every once in a while you just go into "destroy mode" and as far as I can tell you actively pursue individuals to either prove some point or to just get to them. You have made people "rage quite" and driven off members of the community on different occasions and have sometimes publicly apologized and others not. Some of them you have even liked and respected, Bastard Poetry has faded away for a variety of reasons, but he never really recovered from your last confrontation. If you want to talk about dead projects and "wasted time" why don't you dig up the COK Part II thread. It's times like those that I generally step in and try to help resolve the situation, and feel guilty about the times I don't, and it has always turned out badly for the people or person that you target or who get in your way because you just don't give up until you feel like you have won. Even when you regret it later.

I for my part am generally labeled a tree hugging pussy fag or some other such titles (not necessarily by you), but I keep getting in situations like this because I don't like how you and others treat people here even if it is just the internet. And I hold to those ideals.

So now I see you are targeting Zozma. That is understandable because he was more than a little happy to see that you might have been leaving a little while back (which you were aware of) and the two of you have always butted heads. You also made comments on the Mercenaries section about a lack of progress I believe, but that campaign has apparently died out.

I'm just asking you to move on. Zozma deletes your posts because they are frustrating and hurtful. At this point all I see you doing is being a bully in terms of the FFT:Remix project. I can continue to argue your points and try to change your mind, but I think all that will do is make you more set on trying to be right about whatever point you can make. At this point we are both about to start just throwing insults back and forth at each other over a project that neither of us has really put much effort into.

So can we just consider your point made and leave FFT:Remix as it is?

And is completely unnecessary. I have been polite and patient in this topic with you as well. 100%.

I don't know what conversation you were on, but I was never "about to start throwing insults" at you. Also, I have no clue what "little game that we have been playing for years" you are talking about.

FFT Remix died, and if this kind of thing continues to happen in FFH, FFH will continue to be a place that doesn't produce playable games, but dead forum sections instead.

This is what is happening, and how you or anyone else feels about it doesn't change it, unfortunately. I am not trying to be "mean or hurtful", this is just the reality of what is happening with Remix and FFH in general, and it's terrible.

This is a point which you cannot argue. PM'ing me about some totally unrelated events will not change this.
« Last Edit: November 03, 2010, 07:51:35 AM by Archael »
Cheetah [Posts: 3656]
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  • [November 03, 2010, 07:26:12 AM]
Re: Dead Project (other topic got locked for some reason)
« Reply #9 on: November 03, 2010, 07:26:12 AM »
You read and type fast.

I have nothing further to add.

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Asmo X [Posts: 1689]
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  • [November 03, 2010, 11:00:56 AM]
Re: Dead Project (other topic got locked for some reason)
« Reply #10 on: November 03, 2010, 11:00:56 AM »
Honestly, until someone directed my attention to this thread and forum today, I thought remix was just in development limbo for eternity and wrote it off. But if Zozma is actually on the verge of releasing something, then I think this argument might be wasted here. As long as there is some forward momentum, something people can actually play, I'm good with it. I don't even care if it sucks.
GeneralStrife [Posts: 1442]
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  • [November 03, 2010, 04:59:48 PM]
Re: Dead Project (other topic got locked for some reason)
« Reply #11 on: November 03, 2010, 04:59:48 PM »
As far as I know it's just zozma. One person can only do so much...what needs to be done are the events which are probably the hardest. He needs help and no one has even come forward..I was gonna help but damn those event sprites look hard..I thought I was gonna do more harm then good...hes lone uno on this and expecting lots of updates is alot to ask for, especially when he has a life. (i think)
Kill_Bones [Posts: 188]
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  • [November 03, 2010, 07:25:34 PM]
Re: Dead Project (other topic got locked for some reason)
« Reply #12 on: November 03, 2010, 07:25:34 PM »
Quote from: "Cheetah"
Okay so this is what I'm understanding from you Voldemort. You want the project closed.
This. Instead of complaining about how slow this goes, if you actually wanted to see this done then maybe you should help him out, instead of yelling "WAORK FAYSTER SLAYVE!" at him. He's one damn person, he can't be wasting everyone else's time, he's the only one spending time on it! I would agree if we were talking about IA, because an entire team worked on that, thus all of their work went to waste. He's the only one working on this, so he's only using his own work and time. If this doesn't get fulfilled, then the only time wasted is his, not ours.



Full credit to Mayhem over at RPGuild for my sig
BloodyBlade
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  • [November 03, 2010, 10:09:40 PM]
Re: Dead Project (other topic got locked for some reason)
« Reply #13 on: November 03, 2010, 10:09:40 PM »
IIRC isnt Zozma moving or having problems in life? Like err no internet access and I think he said he had a family member ill.

I still can wait eternity for this patch as it does have IGNIS my love!
Smitson [Posts: 791]
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  • [November 05, 2010, 06:09:00 PM]
Re: Dead Project (other topic got locked for some reason)
« Reply #14 on: November 05, 2010, 06:09:00 PM »
Quote from: "Asmo X"
Honestly, until someone directed my attention to this thread and forum today, I thought remix was just in development limbo for eternity and wrote it off. But if Zozma is actually on the verge of releasing something, then I think this argument might be wasted here. As long as there is some forward momentum, something people can actually play, I'm good with it. I don't even care if it sucks.

This. I agree with Arch, if you're not going to be able to complete it, dumb it down. It's better to have SOMETHING rather then 4 years and NOTHING.
Archael
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  • [November 05, 2010, 06:17:43 PM]
Re: Dead Project (other topic got locked for some reason)
« Reply #15 on: November 05, 2010, 06:17:43 PM »
Smitson: Thanks for seeing the actual point of my post instead of trying to make me into some villain / bully / dumb ad hominem argument like Cheetah was trying to do.

St. Ajora forbid some members want to see the community flourish and actually finish some projects instead of the Dead Marshes of abandoned forums that the projects section has become. Seriously.

The moment someone even criticizes people's laziness / lack of work ethic around here (it's usually me or Asmo), it turns into a hailstorm of white knighting and excuse-making. Not everyone appreciates laziness, and some people actually want to see this site change for the better - whether the sad state we're in is caused by people abandoning their "hobby of making unfinished games" or not. Sorry if that bothers you.

PS: Cheetah, I'm seeing the exact same patterns of inactivity in Mercenaries, and if I need to make the same exact post over there to emphasize mistakes we should avoid in the future, I will. So if you wanna start thinking about ways to defend people's laziness and inability to finish projects which they themselves start, get ready.
Asmo X [Posts: 1689]
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  • [November 06, 2010, 05:43:12 AM]
Re: Dead Project (other topic got locked for some reason)
« Reply #16 on: November 06, 2010, 05:43:12 AM »
I don't care about laziness. I'm the laziest person I know. But for that reason, I don't start huge projects. You can even work hard and still finish nothing because you set yourself some impossible goals. I think that's more a problem than anything else here. The amount of actual work that, say, LD has done on Mercs, isn't inconsiderable. It's just nowhere near enough to get a project of that size out the door. I keep saying this, but it really feels like people have no faith in shorter stories because their only frame of reference is terrible, bloated, JRPGs.
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