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Base mechanics changes: POLL  (Read 1673 times)
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4v4, Squire only, no swords, map 116
FFMaster [Posts: 2408] Logged
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  • [October 30, 2010, 04:41:30 AM]
Base mechanics changes: POLL
« on: October 30, 2010, 04:41:30 AM »
For the past day or two, a few people have debated about certain base mechanics that we adopted from the 1.3 AI tourneys. I just want to see what you guys want, since you guys will be the ones entering teams after all. Please add comments in.

Question 1
Should we change the minimum Fury/Faith?
[] - Yes (if yes, what to?)
[] - No

Comments:

Question 2
What should be done to absorb/weak?
[] - Go back to base mechanics from vanilla
[] - Make it always neutral absorb(absorb, weak, and half element all in one)
[] - Keep as is(Absorb and Half)

Comments:

Question 3
Should the JP limit be removed altogether?
[] - Yes
[] - No

Comments:

Question 4
Should the limits on skills be removed(the max 2 limit)?
[] - Yes
[] - No

Comments:

Question 5
Should the limits on items be removed(the max 2 limit)?
[] - Yes
[] - No

Comments:

Question 6
Should items be completely remade?
[] - Yes
[] - No

Comments:

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CT5Holy [Posts: 762] Logged
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  • [October 30, 2010, 05:57:16 AM]
Re: Base mechanics changes: POLL
« Reply #1 on: October 30, 2010, 05:57:16 AM »
Question 1
Should we change the minimum Fury/Faith?
[] - Yes (if yes, what to?)
[X] - No

Comments: I don't think it's a big deal. Low faith teams won't have access to Raise/Raise 2 -> sandbagging efforts are easily countered.

Question 2
What should be done to absorb/weak?
[] - Go back to base mechanics from vanilla
[X] - Make it always neutral absorb(absorb, weak, and half element all in one)
[] - Keep as is(Absorb and Half)

Comments: Seems like the best compromise.

Question 3
Should the JP limit be removed altogether?
[] - Yes
[X] - No

Comments: JP limit forces creativity/wise purchases of skills. Priests, for example, would probably all have Cure 3/Raise/Raise 2/Wall/Esuna/Holy, a setup that currently costs 2280 JP including job unlock. With no Raise, that's still 2130 JP. Monks would also likely all have Revive/Chakra/Stigma Magic/Spin Fist/Repeating Fist/Earth Slash/Wave Fist (ok, some Punch Art users will only get Revive, Stigma, and Secret Fist. But for the damage oriented Punch Art users, they'd all buy most of the skillset).
Yes, more options become available, but I feel that all units could have the best R/S/M available and skillsets full of excellent action abilities, instead of only a choice few with the JP limit.

Question 4
Should the limits on skills be removed(the max 2 limit)?
[X] - Yes
[] - No

Comments: I don't see anything wrong with this. I prefer diversity, anyway.
Although, 4 DefUP 40 Faith units with strong weapons could be pretty deadly.

Question 5
Should the limits on items be removed(the max 2 limit)?
[X] - Yes
[] - No

Comments: I don't really run into this problem, so I'm fine with removing it. Someday, I might want 3 or 4 copies of the same equip.

Question 6
Should items be completely remade?
[] - Yes
[X] - No

Comments: I think our current items are fine.

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logus [Posts: 113] Logged
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  • [October 30, 2010, 06:19:32 AM]
Re: Base mechanics changes: POLL
« Reply #2 on: October 30, 2010, 06:19:32 AM »
Question 1
Should we change the minimum Fury/Faith?
[] - Yes (if yes, what to?)
[X] - No

Comments: the only thing that might need to change is the fury+X constant for damage calculation. But that would be slight, and something to be done among the last things.

Question 2
What should be done to absorb/weak?
[] - Go back to base mechanics from vanilla
[X] - Make it always neutral absorb(absorb, weak, and half element all in one)
[] - Keep as is(Absorb and Half)

Comments:

Question 3
Should the JP limit be removed altogether?
[] - Yes
[X] - No


Comments: My answer is "Yes, if someone offers a decent laid out plan for rsm with variety and balance, which is feasible within the ASM limitations imposed". Since that hasn't shown up, and probably won't, the answer is no. And don't give me half crap like "oh you can just do this, or do etc". I need evidence, warranties that the whole new rsm setup works.  Theorizing on chat on how awesome it would be doesn't make it come any close to reality. I MIGHT give a try in coming up with a balanced r/s/m set, but it's unlikely that I can pull anything good up.

Question 4
Should the limits on skills be removed(the max 2 limit)?
  • - Yes
    • [] - No


    Comments:

    which will lead to a lot more testings. Told you, humes are not ready.

    Question 5
    Should the limits on items be removed(the max 2 limit)?
  • - Yes
    • [] - No

    Comments: again, should lead to a bit more of testing, especially on the absorb stuff. They'll need to be nerfed in case this happens.

    Question 6
    Should items be completely remade?
    [] - Yes
  • - No


Comments: The pool already has a lot of usable stuff. Sure, some might need a fix, but I'm pretty sure we don't need a complete remake.

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  • [October 30, 2010, 10:26:09 AM]
Re: Base mechanics changes: POLL
« Reply #3 on: October 30, 2010, 10:26:09 AM »
Question 1
Should we change the minimum Fury/Faith?
[] - Yes (if yes, what to?)
[X] - No

Comments:There isn't really anything wrong with it

Question 2
What should be done to absorb/weak?
[] - Go back to base mechanics from vanilla
[X] - Make it always neutral absorb(absorb, weak, and half element all in one)
[] - Keep as is(Absorb and Half)

Comments:MUST DO IT!

Question 3
Should the JP limit be removed altogether?
[] - Yes
[X] - No

Comments: Not yet atleast, until all abilities are balanced.

Question 4
Should the limits on skills be removed(the max 2 limit)?
[] - Yes
[X] - No

Comments:Same comment as number 3 question

Question 5
Should the limits on items be removed(the max 2 limit)?
[] - Yes
[X] - No

Comments:Same comment as number 3 question

Question 6
Should items be completely remade?
[] - Yes
[X] - No

Comments: Items don't need that much fixing.

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  • [October 30, 2010, 10:51:33 AM]
Re: Base mechanics changes: POLL
« Reply #4 on: October 30, 2010, 10:51:33 AM »
Question 1
Should we change the minimum Fury/Faith?
[] - Yes (if yes, what to?)
  • - No


Comments:

Question 2
What should be done to absorb/weak?
[] - Go back to base mechanics from vanilla
[] - Make it always neutral absorb(absorb, weak, and half element all in one)
  • - Keep as is(Absorb and Half)


Comments: I cannot recall any battles done or any testing with it has Absorb/Half. I'd rather see how it works out before we change it

Question 3
Should the JP limit be removed altogether?
  • - Yes
    • [] - No

    Comments: I'm not sold on either option. So I'd be for testing it w/o the jp limit. The only thing I don't like is giving players free choice of r/s/m. the abilities part doesn't worry me as much as limiting the ai's decision is usually the best option rather then giving it more things to choose from

    Question 4
    Should the limits on skills be removed(the max 2 limit)?
  • - Yes
    • [] - No

    Comments: I see no reason to have this rule in place tbh

    Question 5
    Should the limits on items be removed(the max 2 limit)?
  • - Yes
    • [] - No

    Comments: same as above

    Question 6
    Should items be completely remade?
    [] - Yes
  • - No


Comments: I see nothing wrong with the current items even if the restrictions were lifted.

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Zaen [Posts: 402] Logged
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  • [October 30, 2010, 02:00:29 PM]
Re: Base mechanics changes: POLL
« Reply #5 on: October 30, 2010, 02:00:29 PM »
Question 1
Should we change the minimum Fury/Faith?
[] - Yes (if yes, what to?)
[X] - No

Comments: I see no point in changing them, as 40 - 70 is Soldier Office standards.

Question 2
What should be done to absorb/weak?
[] - Go back to base mechanics from vanilla
[X] - Make it always neutral absorb(absorb, weak, and half element all in one)
[] - Keep as is(Absorb and Half)

Comments: As long as you can't boost absorb, it's fine.

Question 3
Should the JP limit be removed altogether?
[X] - Yes
[] - No

Comments: You know where I stand. I feel abilities seem balanced as it is, or close enough. Instead of being capped/limited, people will have more freedom. It also leaves them up to what some call "responsible freedom", where instead of getting whatever, they will be better off taking what they need instead of everything in the skillset. People do this anyway, so the only difference is RSM. I'd suggest limiting RSM to some of the better choices. Take out some top tier, take out the bottom tier. Simple.

Question 4
Should the limits on skills be removed(the max 2 limit)?
[X] - Yes
[] - No

Comments:

Question 5
Should the limits on items be removed(the max 2 limit)?
[X] - Yes
[] - No

Comments:

Question 6
Should items be completely remade?
[] - Yes
[X] - No

Comments: They already kind of are, so...

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philsov [Posts: 4599] Logged
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  • [October 30, 2010, 05:09:46 PM]
Re: Base mechanics changes: POLL
« Reply #6 on: October 30, 2010, 05:09:46 PM »
1) Minimum of 40 is fine, though I suggest a minumum team cap of 180?  Maybe 200.

2) Always normal absorb or just remove weaknesses in items

3) No.  However, I'm down for a quick minitourney without the JP cap just to show either how broken things can be become or how wrong I am.  It also makes for simpler and easier and thus more boring choices for the player.

4) No.  See 3, though.  This is even more breaking than no JP limit.

5) Yes, for now.

6) No.  Most of them are great.  In fact there's a lot of fat, but, whatever, we've got the spare slots.

Just another rebel plotting rebellion.
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PX_Timefordeath [Posts: 1781] Logged
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  • [October 30, 2010, 07:13:18 PM]
Re: Base mechanics changes: POLL
« Reply #7 on: October 30, 2010, 07:13:18 PM »
Question 1
Should we change the minimum Fury/Faith?
[] - Yes (if yes, what to?)
  • - No


Comments:

Question 2
What should be done to absorb/weak?
[] - Go back to base mechanics from vanilla
[] - Make it always neutral absorb(absorb, weak, and half element all in one)
  • - Keep as is(Absorb and Half)


Comments: Undecided on this. We haven't tested the current absorb and half, so maybe after some testing.

Question 3
Should the JP limit be removed altogether?
[] - Yes
  • - No


Comments: This is the big argument. I'm all for a minitourney without the cap to see how much better it is. Archael, you say it limits combos and provided us with a character with Fire/Ice/Bolt1-4, Flare, and all Yin-Yang Magic, but that's just a stupid combo. The 1.3 JP limit was created to limit to broken combos along with the unlock tree, and to prevent retarded combos like the one you provided. We removed the tree progression style, and that allowed the broken combos with Abilities and RSM, but we balanced the abilities so that there is no broken combos. The JP limit now serves to promote thinking for good combos, and it removes the possibility for stupid combos. We're not promoting free play, we're promoting smart play.

Question 4
Should the limits on skills be removed(the max 2 limit)?
[] - Yes
  • - No


Comments:

Question 5
Should the limits on items be removed(the max 2 limit)?
  • - Yes
    • [] - No

    Comments:

    Question 6
    Should items be completely remade?
    [] - Yes
  • - No


Comments: Not remade, just fine tuning is enough.
Melancthon [Posts: 256] Logged
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  • [October 30, 2010, 08:03:36 PM]
Re: Base mechanics changes: POLL
« Reply #8 on: October 30, 2010, 08:03:36 PM »
Question 1
Should we change the minimum Fury/Faith?
[] - Yes (if yes, what to?)
[X] - No

Comments:  They seem fine to me as they stand.  It might not be a bad idea to raise the minimum party Faith total as phil suggested.

Question 2
What should be done to absorb/weak?
[] - Go back to base mechanics from vanilla
[X] - Make it always neutral absorb(absorb, weak, and half element all in one)
[] - Keep as is(Absorb and Half)

Comments:  Or keep it as is and get rid of weakness.

Question 3
Should the JP limit be removed altogether?
[] - Yes
[] - No
[X] - Undecided

Comments:  I would LOVE to see a mini-tourney to see how it looks.  I'm also very interested to see what people come up with when the limits are off.  I've already built a team, just to satisfy my own curiosity.

Question 4-5
Comments:   I am not a fan of Copy/Paste teams in general, and removing these may encourage more of that.  I lean toward keeping them as they are, but as above I would like to see it in action.

Question 6
Should items be completely remade?
[] - Yes
[X] - No

Comments:  Some tinkering may be necessary, especially if the limits are removed, but I think they are very good as they are now.  A good variety of options.

General Comments:

Taking off all the limits SOUNDS like it would be a lot of fun to me, and I think it might be the ideal goal.  I'm not sure it would be the best way to go about things however.  A lot of the fun in team creation comes from doing the math, working things out, making changes and revisions, and sacrifices.  Taking off the limits gets rid of any need for choice or sacrifice, which I think harms the game in the long run.  I think getting rid of the job tree was a good change, because it simplifies things and opens up a greater variety of units.  Taking off all the limits might take things too far.  Like I said though, I think we need to see it in action before any serious discussion can take place.

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Archael Logged
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  • [October 30, 2010, 08:13:32 PM]
Re: Base mechanics changes: POLL
« Reply #9 on: October 30, 2010, 08:13:32 PM »
Quote
3) No.  However, I'm down for a quick minitourney without the JP cap just to show either how broken things can be become or how wrong I am.  It also makes for simpler and easier and thus more boring choices for the player.

the only thing running a mini tourney without JP cap could show is how balanced Arena is in 4v4 currently, or how imbalanced arena is in 4v4 currently

this isn't about you, it's about the balance of the game not hinging upon supertact rules

Quote
Archael, you say it limits combos and provided us with a character with Fire/Ice/Bolt1-4, Flare, and all Yin-Yang Magic, but that's just a stupid combo. The 1.3 JP limit was created to limit to broken combos along with the unlock tree, and to prevent retarded combos like the one you provided.

Are you serious. I provided ONE random example out of many that is impossible due to JP limitations. That was all that was necessary to prove my point - because my point was that JP limit DOES limit possibilities, and it DOES, that's why it's called a LIMIT

 I think everyone can agree that the fact that the example wasn't a very strong unit is pretty irrelevant. And I think everyone agrees that the 1.3 JP limit WAS NOT created to limit "retarded combos" that aren't strong to begin with. That's an illusionary reason that you just made up because the example I linked just happened to not be a unit YOU would use

JP limit limits builds, regardless of what those may be, and regardless of them being builds that you would personally use or not, that is totally irrelevant

Quote
We removed the tree progression style, and that allowed the broken combos with Abilities and RSM, but we balanced the abilities so that there is no broken combos.

If that's the case, you have absolutely ZERO need for a JP limit

then the JP limit being in place now just serves to appease some masturbatory satisfaction some of you seem to have about the number 3000
Skip Sandwich [Posts: 994] Logged
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  • [October 30, 2010, 08:46:21 PM]
Re: Base mechanics changes: POLL
« Reply #10 on: October 30, 2010, 08:46:21 PM »
uestion 1
Should we change the minimum Fury/Faith?
[] - Yes (if yes, what to?)
[X] - No

Comments: the top three reivial skills (Fairy, Raise and Raise 2) all require above average faith and/or good compat to use effectively. I would actually also propose to put the success rates for Raise and Raise 2 on par with Demi and Demi 2, making the two anti undead skills more useful by comparison.

Question 2
What should be done to absorb/weak?
[] - Go back to base mechanics from vanilla
[] - Make it always neutral absorb(absorb, weak, and half element all in one)
[X] - Keep as is(Absorb and Half)

Comments: keeping it as absorb + half makes sense to me as a progression from -50% resist -> 0% resist -> 50% resist -> 100% resist -> 150% resist (Weak -> neutral -> half -> immune -> absorb)

Question 3
Should the JP limit be removed altogether?
[] - Yes
[X] - No

Comments: I think it should stay, but should be a resource we allocate "per team" rather then "per unit" thus allowing us to field teams with an asymmetrical power distribution.

Question 4
Should the limits on skills be removed(the max 2 limit)?
[X] - Yes
[] - No

Comments: Skill limits should only be enforced though soft caps (jp restrictions)

Question 5
Should the limits on items be removed(the max 2 limit)?
[X] - Yes
[] - No

Comments: I max 2 limit is arbitrary, I'd prefer simply 'buying' equipment via Gil or JP purse deduction

Question 6
Should items be completely remade?
[] - Yes
[X] - No

Comments: In my dream for the finished arena, units and items should be scaled such that we can field a team of four roughly equal units at the lowest power level, or a single super-powered unit, or somewhere in between those two extremes, and still have it be balanced.

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philsov [Posts: 4599] Logged
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  • [October 30, 2010, 08:52:54 PM]
Re: Base mechanics changes: POLL
« Reply #11 on: October 30, 2010, 08:52:54 PM »
Quote
this isn't about you, it's about the balance of the game not hinging upon supertact rules

For most of the super tact there wasn't a JP cap.  Anyone could have anything (including blade grasp and hamedo; honestly with humans in play these aren't even top-teir reactions) and skillsets were always maxed out (except banned abilities -- meteor and bahamut come to mind).  So I really don't know where you're getting this notion from.  There were a few side tourneys like the 2450 (I'm getting to that one) and the awesome level 7 tournament where people had like... 700 JP to mess with stuff.  So, in general, the JP limit is more a recent construct that me waving my old man cane and wishing for the good old days where we lived in the dark, we were fine, and that's how we liked it.  So please for the love of all that is holy STOP referring to these as Super Tact rules because you have no clue wtf you're talking about.

However, we learned very quickly that allowing 4x of anything -- action abilities, reactions, support, movement -- was horribly detrimental to balance.  

Quote
And I think everyone agrees that the 1.3 JP limit WAS NOT ceated to limit "retarded combos" that aren't strong to begin with.

It kinda was.  

Let's wind the clock back some, shall we?  

viewtopic.php?f=8&t=811

In a vanilla tourney, we used the number 2450.  Why 2450?  

- It allowed Calculators, but only the CT5 function
- It allowed samurai/ninja, but two swords/two hands were beyond the JP limit
- Bards were possible with songs, but Dancer was effectively banned with only 50 JP to spend on abilities (vanilla slow dance and nameless dance, booo)

Using 1.3 as a parellel, I ran some unlocking numbers and 3400 was the cutoff for allowing Sages' most basic spells to be learned, and once again unlocking all the other upper level job classes.  The only difference is I permitted Dance but just banned nameless.  I think at 3450 sages gained Toad2 and Gravi2 so I butted up against that line and took it back a hair.  Why 3400 instead of 3449?  Meh, clean numbers.  As stated in the linked topic things were certainly a bit different in the 1.3 scheme because all abilities were cheaper but unlocking was more expensive.  Either way, in 1.3, 3400 specifically prevented draw out + MAU (this is back when draw out was excellent), two swords/two hands, and damage split + shield (squires didn't have shields back then) which were some combos that would be so popular I just cut them in an effort to force more creativity on players.  I looked around at the other, stronger stuff this prevented and ultimately I was "meh, ok" with that - gotta draw the line somewhere.

I'm pretty sure you were referring to not being able to max out yin-yang magic and calling it a combo, but just something I wanted to clarify - but you do bring up a good point about how the magical skillsets are - expansive and expensive.

Just another rebel plotting rebellion.
Melancthon [Posts: 256] Logged
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  • [October 30, 2010, 08:53:43 PM]
Re: Base mechanics changes: POLL
« Reply #12 on: October 30, 2010, 08:53:43 PM »
Quote from: "Archael"
the only thing running a mini tourney without JP cap could show is how balanced Arena is in 4v4 currently, or how imbalanced arena is in 4v4 currently

Where else would you start?  Running a mini-tourney would at least show us what abilities were most in need of balancing.  I'm not entirely sure that removing the JP cap would even make a bigger impact than removing the limits on learned skills and items would.  I just did the actual math for the "unlimited" team I built and only one of my units is over the current limit, and that's only by 100 points.  Of course I'm far from the greatest team-builder, which is why I want to see what everyone else comes up with.

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Archael Logged
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  • [October 30, 2010, 08:57:46 PM]
Re: Base mechanics changes: POLL
« Reply #13 on: October 30, 2010, 08:57:46 PM »
Quote from: "philsov"
However, we learned very quickly that allowing 4x of anything -- action abilities, reactions, support, movement -- was horribly detrimental to balance.

4x of anything shouldn't be a problem in a patch that's built from the ground up to be balanced for 4v4.

And neither should unlimited JP.

I rest my case > >


Quote
It kinda was.  

Let's wind the clock back some, shall we?  

http://ffhacktics.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=811

In a vanilla tourney, we used the number 2450.  Why 2450?  

- It allowed Calculators, but only the CT5 function
- It allowed samurai/ninja, but two swords/two hands were beyond the JP limit
- Bards were possible with songs, but Dancer was effectively banned with only 50 JP to spend on abilities (vanilla slow dance and nameless dance, booo)

You're replying to a claim I never made

Read px's / my post again... I was using the word "retarded" as in "useless, stupid, non-viable", "for fun",

I wasn't using it to refer to a "broken team that is too good"

the JP limit was made to stop builds that are TOO good, not builds that are TOO WEAK, like PX was arguing (that my example of wizard / oracle was a bad example because it was a bad unit):

Archael, you say it limits combos and provided us with a character with Fire/Ice/Bolt1-4, Flare, and all Yin-Yang Magic, but that's just a stupid combo. The 1.3 JP limit was created to limit to broken combos along with the unlock tree, and to prevent retarded combos like the one you provided.
« Last Edit: October 30, 2010, 09:05:37 PM by Archael »
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philsov [Posts: 4599] Logged
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  • [October 30, 2010, 09:05:26 PM]
Re: Base mechanics changes: POLL
« Reply #14 on: October 30, 2010, 09:05:26 PM »
stupid overuse of quotations.  Players are free to impale themselves in several ways still :)

Quote
4x of anything shouldn't be a problem in a patch that's built from the ground up to be balanced for 4v4.

If r/s/m were freely editable I'd be inclined to agree.  But I'm talking reality and you're talking potential and this is fun little dance.

Just another rebel plotting rebellion.
Archael Logged
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  • [October 30, 2010, 09:09:01 PM]
Re: Base mechanics changes: POLL
« Reply #15 on: October 30, 2010, 09:09:01 PM »
Quote from: "philsov"
stupid overuse of quotations.  Players are free to impale themselves in several ways still :)

Quote
4x of anything shouldn't be a problem in a patch that's built from the ground up to be balanced for 4v4.

If r/s/m were freely editable I'd be inclined to agree.  But I'm talking reality and you're talking potential and this is fun little dance.

Editing r/s/m isn't the only solution.

if your only argument to not having JP limit is that it would make all players auto-spam the best R/S/M, then your R/S/M are NOT balanced. This is a reality you're gonna have to face, and stroking your JP limit to entertain an illusionary balance of RSM (born purely out of the fact that they CAN'T AFFORD the broken RSM's in the first place, without sacrificing major potential) isn't going to fix that balance.

 If you can't fix them, remove them. It'll be more than worth it for the combos you're gonna be opening up by lifting the 3000 JP Limit.

Or, if you'd rather keep the JP limit in order to preserve your illusionary RSM balance, all the while killing builds which aren't to blame for the RSM imbalance, then go ahead.

Like FFM and PX said yesterday in chat; "Our Action Abilities are all pretty balanced, even Draw Out is balanced now too".

It makes ZERO sense that the JP limit (which is only being kept around right now to force balance on RSM) is hurting the potential of truly balanced Action Abilities.

By the way, Action Abilities outnumber RSM, GREATLY. And if THOSE are balanced, I don't see why they have to suffer because of some (currently) un-fixable RSM skills that you just refuse to eliminate from the game for god knows what reason. It's not like Damage Split is interesting to watch.
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philsov [Posts: 4599] Logged
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  • [October 30, 2010, 09:20:37 PM]
Re: Base mechanics changes: POLL
« Reply #16 on: October 30, 2010, 09:20:37 PM »
Quote from: "Archael"
Quote
4x of anything shouldn't be a problem in a patch that's built from the ground up to be balanced for 4v4.

If r/s/m were freely editable I'd be inclined to agree.  But I'm talking reality and you're talking potential and this is fun little dance.

Editing r/s/m isn't the only solution.

if your only argument to not having JP limit is that it would make all players auto-spam the best R/S/M, then your R/S/M are NOT balanced. This is a reality you're gonna have to face, and stroking your JP limit to entertain an illusionary balance of RSM (born purely out of the fact that they CAN'T AFFORD the broken RSM's in the first place, without sacrificing major potential) isn't going to fix that balance.

If you can't fix them, remove them. It'll be more than worth it for the combos you're gonna be opening up by doing so.

Or, if you'd rather keep the JP limit in order to preserve your illusionary RSM balance, all the while killing builds which aren't to blame for the RSM imbalance, then go ahead.

Like FFM and PX said yesterday in chat; "Our Action Abilities are all pretty balanced, even Draw Out is balanced now too".

It makes ZERO sense that the JP limit (which is only being kept around right now to force balance on RSM) is hurting the potential of truly balanced Action Abilities.

There are two issues here, specifically regarding R/S/M.

1 - JP cap.  JP cap prevents a strong action ability skillset to be coupled with a strong R/S/M.  Casters are penalized far more the meleers.

2 - Quad anything - completely different, stop confusing the two.

Just another rebel plotting rebellion.
Archael Logged
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  • [October 30, 2010, 09:24:46 PM]
Re: Base mechanics changes: POLL
« Reply #17 on: October 30, 2010, 09:24:46 PM »
I'm referring to JP cap now.


Quote
JP cap prevents a strong action ability skillset to be coupled with a strong R/S/M.

That's fine, for vanilla or for 1.3, which are not balanced for 4v4.

But this is Arena, and IIRC the point of this patch is to be balanced for 4v4.


Arena shouldn't have a problem with "a strong action ability skillset" coupled with a "strong" R/S/M.

if it's balanced, this shouldn't be a problem. No combination should. And if an R, S, or M, is "too strong", then balance it. If it's "unfixable currently", then remove it.

The same with Action Abilities that are "strong". If an A Ability is "too strong", fix it. And get this part: ALL A-Abilities are fixable, thanks to FFTPatcher. That is why it makes NO SENSE for A-Abilities to be subject to a JP Cap, because they are all balanced, or balance-able (easily).

Ct5Holy posted this:
Quote
but I feel that [without the JP cap] all units could have the best R/S/M available and skillsets full of excellent action abilities,

In a patch balanced for 4v4, this is a problem why? If it's balanced, there won't be any "best R/S/M", because the broken shit people run ASAP \ to learn [Damage Split, Hamedo, Blade Grasp, etc] would be balanced and/or removed. Yes, you'll see full skillsets. And the problem with that is? If Action Abilities are as balanced as FFM says, none. (And to be quite honest, I feel he is more than capable of handling any A-Ability balance problems using FFTPatcher)
Skip Sandwich [Posts: 994] Logged
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  • [October 30, 2010, 10:03:05 PM]
Re: Base mechanics changes: POLL
« Reply #18 on: October 30, 2010, 10:03:05 PM »
@Archael
I agree with you that JP costs are useless if all units/abilities/items are set around the same balance point in terms of overall power, but I at least would like to eventually see a future where we can field teams with asymmetrical power distributions such as 4 v 1, 2 v 3 and so on. To do THAT and be balanced, we need some scale by which to measure the power of individual units and assign costs. That is why I am in favor of maintaining a jp cap, but having it be assigned per team rather then per unit.

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Archael Logged
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  • [October 30, 2010, 10:07:25 PM]
Re: Base mechanics changes: POLL
« Reply #19 on: October 30, 2010, 10:07:25 PM »
Quote
but I at least would like to eventually see a future where we can field teams with asymmetrical power distributions such as 4 v 1, 2 v 3 and so on. To do THAT and be balanced, we need some scale by which to measure the power of individual units and assign costs.

I'm totally confused by that

Asymmetrical power distritutions such as 4v1
4v2
4v3
and so on?

What does that mean?

Arena is 4v4,
not 4v2
4v3
4v1

Are you saying that JP costs should give you an indicator of how powerful an individual UNIT is? That's fine. Though extremely debatable - you cannot say that a 5000 JP unit will always beat a 3000 JP one. In 4v4 setting, that's just not how things work.
It depends on the unit gear, their class, and what the AI does with them. Just look at how much JP each skill is. Lifting JP cap won't stop you from counting JP if you wanted to (though like I said, it will never be an accurate measure of an individual unit's power in AI tournament settings.)

And you also can't say a 10000 JP unit will always beat Two 3000 JP units. Asymmetrical power measurements doesn't sound like something that works via JP counting and/or limiting - but if you want to do it, go ahead. Lifting the JP cap wouldn't stop you from counting JP.


My problem is with JP CAP.

Quote
I agree with you that JP costs are useless if all units/abilities/items are set around the same balance point in terms of overall power,

As far as I know, that is the goal in Arena. Not fielding teams such as 4v1 or 4v2.

I am not talking about 4v2 or any future scenario you can come up with, that's a totally different matter, and I don't expect FFM to be balancing for 4v3 or 4v2 or 4v1 anytime soon.

I'm talking about JP Cap being useless in a balanced 4v4 setting, like we run currently, and as you said, you agree with that.
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