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Red Mage job class discussion  (Read 7865 times)
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philsov [Posts: 4598]
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  • [August 23, 2010, 07:14:38 PM]
Red Mage job class discussion
« on: August 23, 2010, 07:14:38 PM »
The red mage is a classic final fantasy class, with roots dating back to good ol number 1.  Skilled in both light and dark magics, not to mention sword and shield, these versatile warriors are an excellent addition into any party.  This is the Rad-only job class, and is located on the magical edge of the job tree directly drawing from job levels in Inquistor, Blue Mage, and Esperblade.  Although all spells have charge times, they are exceptionally quick.

Skillset
 
?Innocent? - Faiths * (MA + Y) chance in inflict Innocent onto a target, 2 CTR.  Calls upon holy powers to temporaily pardon the target and grant immunity from magicks.
?Faith? - Faiths * (MA + Y) chance in inflict Faith onto a target, 2 CTR.  Calls upon holy powers to ensure target is able to give and recieve magick's full effects.
?Jugarum? - Faiths * (MA + Y) chance in inflict Frog onto a target, 2 CTR.   Binds a ???? spirit to the target, making them a froggy-wog.
?Possession? - Faiths * (MA + Y) chance in inflict Undead onto a target, 2 CTR.  Binds a wandering spirit to the target, turning them into a member of the living dead.
Healing Rain - 4 range, 2 AoE, 3 CTR.  Weaker than moogle, hits both allies and enemies alike.  Faith-based healing into the wide-area.  "Western winds bring recovery to those in need"
Replenish - MA*Y MP healing.  Self-only.  "Having unlocked the inner workings of Mist, the user generates some for himself freely"
Meteor - Faith/MA damage - 0 range, 2 AoE.  Huge damage, but odds are Rad dies too ^^.  "Calls upon a great comet from the heavens to strike down enemies.  Comes at a price, however."
Tornado -  (PA+X) * MA damage, 5 range 2 vert linear.  X here is big. "A whirlwind flies from the caster, damaging all in its path"
Nova - Faith/MA damage - 4 range, 1 AoE; chance to inflict Don't Act. "A debiltating explosion that harms and sometimes maims the opposition"

Stats
(HP - below average
MP - above average
Speed - average
PA - above average
MA - above average)

Equips
???

Just another rebel plotting rebellion.
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philsov [Posts: 4598]
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  • [August 23, 2010, 07:23:08 PM]
Re: Red Mage job class discussion
« Reply #1 on: August 23, 2010, 07:23:08 PM »
And, since the title thread will likely be edited, here's the original proposition for skillset and stats:

Quote
Proposed Skillset

?Innocent? - Faiths * (MA + Y) chance in inflict Innocent onto a target, 2 CTR. Calls upon holy powers to temporaily pardon the target and grant immunity from magicks.
?Faith? - Faiths * (MA + Y) chance in inflict Faith onto a target, 2 CTR. Calls upon holy powers to ensure target is able to give and recieve magick's full effects.
?Jugarum? - Faiths * (MA + Y) chance in inflict Frog onto a target, 2 CTR. Binds a ???? spirit to the target, making them a froggy-wog.
?Possession? - Faiths * (MA + Y) chance in inflict Undead onto a target, 2 CTR. Binds a wandering spirit to the target, turning them into a member of the living dead.
Healing Rain - 4 range, 2 AoE, 3 CTR. Weaker than moogle, hits both allies and enemies alike. Faith-based healing into the wide-area. "Western winds bring recovery to those in need"
Replenish - MA*Y MP healing. Self-only. "Having unlocked the inner workings of Mist, the user generates some for himself freely"
Meteor - Faith/MA damage - 0 range, 2 AoE. Huge damage, but odds are Rad dies too ^^. "Calls upon a great comet from the heavens to strike down enemies. Comes at a price, however."
Tornado - (PA+X) * MA damage, 5 range 2 vert linear. X here is big. "A whirlwind flies from the caster, damaging all in its path"
Nova - Faith/MA damage - 4 range, 1 AoE; chance to inflict Don't Act. "A debiltating explosion that harms and sometimes maims the opposition"


The first four still need to work on their names, but it's basically effects that have yet to be present in any major capacity.  Frog and Undead are pretty nasty in either their duration or anti-sandbag (and curing damage), respectively, while Faith/Innocent are finally available to be infused on anyone on the field on command, rather than at 50/50 chances from Gambler or from restricted use in Cantor.  Healing Rain is present because Red Mages need a healing move, and wide-range moderate healing seemed right up its alley.  Replenishment is a unique skill -- MP recovery is a limited blessing in Mercenaries, and its fitting for Rad's final job to be capable of doing thusly.  And, of course, being a red mage means he needs some damage spells too.  Meteor will always have Rad at the epicenter, which is a throwback to dear avengeing tellah or even Sephiroth, Tornado is not faith based and PA based because this is after all ultimately a hybrid class.  Nova mean while is the main damage nuke, and a Don't Act proc on top of it is just delightful.  

I'm tempted to maybe put another defensive/curing ability into the skillset, but I don't know.

Quote
Stats
(HP - below average
MP - above average
Speed - average
PA - above average
MA - above average)

Perhaps even exceptional MA, but in exchange for the higher PA and MA, I think his HP should suffer slightly.

Also, perhaps this job class can have Short Charge innate?  

Any thoughts on anything?  New names for stuff, nix something from the skillset?  Let's hear it.

Just another rebel plotting rebellion.
LastingDawn [Posts: 3452]
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  • [August 23, 2010, 07:24:03 PM]
Re: Red Mage job class discussion
« Reply #2 on: August 23, 2010, 07:24:03 PM »
Very nice Philsov. Yes it is about time this thread is made (With Zodiac's generic skillset fix I can Actually implement the Red Mage and Hessian after all)

Also since this is a Final class, I would ordinarily consider MP self healing as overpowered, but I'll let it slide, since it is a final class. Is there a formula for Tornado you have in mind? I don't think there's anything like that ordinarily, unless you meant it to use the Geomancy formula.

I like this split. I guess I'll keep the Double Magics to Rad's base class then. Just so that they are represented somewhere.

Also Red Mage's can equip...

Robes, Clothes, Armor (though I think I'll have Armor make most of his skills unusable through ARH)

Swords, Rapiers, and SpellBlades are there only weapon choices though. While versatile is large in the skillset, their equipment selection is quite lacking. Though this will all be combed over later, time for class.

"Moment's anger can revert to joy,
sadness can be turned to delight.
A nation destroyed cannot be restored,
the dead brought back to life."

Art of War

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Tigerspike [Posts: 139]
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  • [August 23, 2010, 08:16:07 PM]
Re: Red Mage job class discussion
« Reply #3 on: August 23, 2010, 08:16:07 PM »
I have a couple of thoughts:

I like the thought of using Short Charge as an innate, how about reducing MP growth to average, or very slightly above average, as a counter-balance.  Casts spells quickly, but burns through his/her MP reserves, which is why the RM has Replenish.

How about giving the RM a sword-based skill?  Maybe something that does a reduced damage + status effect of some sort, or something along the lines of Zalbag's ruin skills that cost MP and are superior versions of another skill.

Oh come now. That doesn't even make sense. How can flimsy paper possibly beat the raw density of stone?
LastingDawn [Posts: 3452]
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  • [August 23, 2010, 09:15:17 PM]
Re: Red Mage job class discussion
« Reply #4 on: August 23, 2010, 09:15:17 PM »
Short Charge as an innate makes Red Mage The carrier class (ala v1.2) that is not what I had in mind, ideally. I do like the idea of his spells taking boatloads of MP to use, it really drives the purpose of Replenish home.

Also I was thinking, should Red Mage get the classic Temper (SABR) skill? Raises self PA?

"Moment's anger can revert to joy,
sadness can be turned to delight.
A nation destroyed cannot be restored,
the dead brought back to life."

Art of War

Beta & Gretchen Forever!!!!
mav [Posts: 2610]
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  • [August 23, 2010, 09:43:07 PM]
Re: Red Mage job class discussion
« Reply #5 on: August 23, 2010, 09:43:07 PM »
Quote from: "LastingDawn"
Also I was thinking, should Red Mage get the classic Temper (SABR) skill? Raises self PA?
Hell yes. This technique gives the job one more edge without making it overpowered. Overall the skilllset looks pretty solid. I feel like there are too many status spells, but I can understand why.
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philsov [Posts: 4598]
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  • [August 23, 2010, 09:58:00 PM]
Re: Red Mage job class discussion
« Reply #6 on: August 23, 2010, 09:58:00 PM »
Double spells can work too.  Are they getting a custom formula or simply truth-like and then it's 50/50 for a single or double strike?  There's still plenty of ability allotment for red mage -- I know LD was aiming for 8 but I think 10 or even 12 can work.  There's space because the arbalist skillset is smaller, if nothing else.

SABR sounds awesome, too.  Really does well for the physical side of the class.  I like the lower MP multiplier and/or upper-level MP costs idea, too.  Dunno which way I prefer personally, though.

No innate short charge is ok; just an idea.  I do however strongly support most of these spells having intentionally faster charge times despite their power.

As for tornado, I left off the "/2" - yes, it uses elemental's formula.

Just another rebel plotting rebellion.
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Tigerspike [Posts: 139]
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  • [August 23, 2010, 10:24:49 PM]
Re: Red Mage job class discussion
« Reply #7 on: August 23, 2010, 10:24:49 PM »
Quote from: "philsov"
No innate short charge is ok; just an idea.  I do however strongly support most of these spells having intentionally faster charge times despite their power.

This is part of why I support the idea of a Short Charge innate.  Having lowered stat growths but some nice innates creates, in my opinion, a nice balance.  Making the spells powerful with a naturally fast casting time makes it easier to abuse the skills in another class.  It also seems to make the class suitable mainly for gaining powerful abilities, but not for actual use.

Oh come now. That doesn't even make sense. How can flimsy paper possibly beat the raw density of stone?
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philsov [Posts: 4598]
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  • [August 23, 2010, 10:38:30 PM]
Re: Red Mage job class discussion
« Reply #8 on: August 23, 2010, 10:38:30 PM »
well, the opposite is also true.  It'd be just as easy, if not easier, to abuse other classes' skills as a class with innate short charge than vice versa.

Besides, growth is normalized in mercenaries -- all the differences are in class multipliers.

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PX_Timefordeath [Posts: 1781]
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  • [August 23, 2010, 10:41:31 PM]
Re: Red Mage job class discussion
« Reply #9 on: August 23, 2010, 10:41:31 PM »
Plague - Chance on inflicting poison/frog/slow/dead/undead on the entire field. "Utilizing the full powers of darkness, the Red Mage bestows a plague upon the battlefield."

Sword Flurry - Attacks with a chance of repeating the attack. "Having gain mastery over his swordsmanship, and augmented by his magical prowess, the Red Mage begins a rain of strikes from his sword."
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Tigerspike [Posts: 139]
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  • [August 23, 2010, 11:22:35 PM]
Re: Red Mage job class discussion
« Reply #10 on: August 23, 2010, 11:22:35 PM »
@philsov, that's a very valid point.  However it gets worked out, I hope that Red Mage still feels like a class I'd want to use.  I'm sure you guys will come up with a good balance.

Oh come now. That doesn't even make sense. How can flimsy paper possibly beat the raw density of stone?
LastingDawn [Posts: 3452]
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  • [August 25, 2010, 05:54:15 PM]
Re: Red Mage job class discussion
« Reply #11 on: August 25, 2010, 05:54:15 PM »
Quote from: "philsov"
Double spells can work too.  Are they getting a custom formula or simply truth-like and then it's 50/50 for a single or double strike?  There's still plenty of ability allotment for red mage -- I know LD was aiming for 8 but I think 10 or even 12 can work.  There's space because the arbalist skillset is smaller, if nothing else.

SABR sounds awesome, too.  Really does well for the physical side of the class.  I like the lower MP multiplier and/or upper-level MP costs idea, too.  Dunno which way I prefer personally, though.

No innate short charge is ok; just an idea.  I do however strongly support most of these spells having intentionally faster charge times despite their power.

As for tornado, I left off the "/2" - yes, it uses elemental's formula.


I totaled up the necessary skills, with 8 Red Mage and 8 Hessian that leaves only 27 skills for NPC's throughout the four patches. That's pretty low as it stands and I truly do not want to encroach on that territory for much longer. Now that's before I tally up the old skills which are still around, but without a home (Cripple, some of the Arbalist Shots, etc) All in all that may gave us at Most 33. As NPC's play just as much as a role in Mercenaries as the PC's do (with one or two unique skills each not counting the Lionguard or Gafgarion, of course, their skills are tallied up in normal skills) Will get to the rest later, nearly time for class.

"Moment's anger can revert to joy,
sadness can be turned to delight.
A nation destroyed cannot be restored,
the dead brought back to life."

Art of War

Beta & Gretchen Forever!!!!
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philsov [Posts: 4598]
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  • [August 26, 2010, 04:49:39 PM]
Re: Red Mage job class discussion
« Reply #12 on: August 26, 2010, 04:49:39 PM »
noted.  

Well with faith/innocent going to Inquistor, and the addition of Temper, we've still got one open slot, preferably of the physical-ish styles.

Sword Flurry is basically the same thing as arbalists risk breaker, sadly.  

hmmm

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mav [Posts: 2610]
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  • [August 26, 2010, 05:22:35 PM]
Re: Red Mage job class discussion
« Reply #13 on: August 26, 2010, 05:22:35 PM »
So the final Red Mage tech should be one that requires a sword a la the ARH? Is there any way to have a skill utilize the element of the weapon? I feel like any skill I could suggest doesn't make complete sense with this class.
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philsov [Posts: 4598]
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  • [August 26, 2010, 05:34:03 PM]
Re: Red Mage job class discussion
« Reply #14 on: August 26, 2010, 05:34:03 PM »
not necessarily needing a sword.  Just... something physical-y.  Just kind of sucks that there aren't many physical formulas available.  Heck, even PA Ruin might be a fitting skill.  

Quote
Is there any way to have a skill utilize the element of the weapon?

Like, if fire weapon -> fire strike -> fire damage with X effect, and so forth?  Doable, but each different element would be to be its own ability that would be (un)available based on the element of your equipped weapon.  But there's a lot of stuff that easily jive well with the class.

Just another rebel plotting rebellion.
LastingDawn [Posts: 3452]
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  • [August 26, 2010, 09:12:51 PM]
Re: Red Mage job class discussion
« Reply #15 on: August 26, 2010, 09:12:51 PM »
Plague is Very un-Red Mage like, it is more akin to a +Gambler, but there is no such a thing. The other skill as pointed out is too akin to Blade Flurry or Riskbreaker, depending on what you meant by it. Regardless thanks for the participation.

As Philsov has mentioned, yes there is a way. A lot of creativity on that front, but that front is not for Mercenaries.

Double skills, hmm...  and one physical skill... what does FFXI have for us on that front? That might be the place to look

"Moment's anger can revert to joy,
sadness can be turned to delight.
A nation destroyed cannot be restored,
the dead brought back to life."

Art of War

Beta & Gretchen Forever!!!!
Likes to move it move it.
philsov [Posts: 4598]
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  • [August 26, 2010, 10:53:35 PM]
Re: Red Mage job class discussion
« Reply #16 on: August 26, 2010, 10:53:35 PM »
ff wikia says....

http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Red_Mage
http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Red_ ... tasy_XI%29

for its physical front most of these things require some ASM to use, like increased accuracy (imo a 100% hit shot is redundant), the ability to swap HP and MP numbers, transparency, evasion boosting (ASM), protect/shell, various elemental resistances and weakness amplifiers, and then basic-level magic that we're both familiar with.  The only other physical-friendly ability that I'm seeing from other mage-types is the LOCK spell, which needs asm to work here as well.  

Perhaps.... formula 7?  Healing weapon strike?  Strong, single target instant healing that's PA/WP based?  Not exactly the angle I'm going for here, but eh.  

Oh... here we go.  Formula 64.  (PA*Br/100)*MA.  Flagged as no status and no elemental, but this one has some potential as a sick melee strike imo... assuming BR/100*MA is greater than WP.  Buh.

edit: or in the case of very good WP's floating around (where WP > PA) we can possibly give them a formula 3 (WP*WP) move?

Just another rebel plotting rebellion.
LastingDawn [Posts: 3452]
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  • [August 26, 2010, 11:28:32 PM]
Re: Red Mage job class discussion
« Reply #17 on: August 26, 2010, 11:28:32 PM »
If I recall right, Formula 64 is used for Wiznaibus... this is Extremely weak, but I could be wrong, I hope I'm wrong anyhow. WP^WP, if they can use swords the highest attack would be 64 (Earth Sabre being the highest at 8.) SpellBlades would be weaker... his unique Rapier would probably not be that impressive WP, and of course taking that skill to other jobs would be a bit broken. Hmm... it should be unique, in any case...

"Moment's anger can revert to joy,
sadness can be turned to delight.
A nation destroyed cannot be restored,
the dead brought back to life."

Art of War

Beta & Gretchen Forever!!!!
mav [Posts: 2610]
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  • [August 27, 2010, 04:02:17 AM]
Re: Red Mage job class discussion
« Reply #18 on: August 27, 2010, 04:02:17 AM »
Quote from: "philsov"
Perhaps.... formula 7? Healing weapon strike? Strong, single target instant healing that's PA/WP based? Not exactly the angle I'm going for here, but eh.
That sounds pretty cool to me. A little random, but somehow befitting to this class. I dunno though, maybe it's too strange for the common player's tastes.
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Tigerspike [Posts: 139]
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  • [August 27, 2010, 02:03:47 PM]
Re: Red Mage job class discussion
« Reply #19 on: August 27, 2010, 02:03:47 PM »
What about formula 3, but with a Holy element?  It wouldn't be particularly powerful, weak against most humans, but would gain strength against the undead.

Oh come now. That doesn't even make sense. How can flimsy paper possibly beat the raw density of stone?
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