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LastingDawn [Posts: 3452]
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  • [November 19, 2008, 03:10:37 AM]
Gambler Job Discussion Thread (Update on First Post!)
« on: November 19, 2008, 03:10:37 AM »
Interesting... quite a few odd ones in there, though how on earth is the gambler even closely related to the Dark Knight? I must have missed something close regarding to such...
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by LastingDawn »
"Moment's anger can revert to joy,
sadness can be turned to delight.
A nation destroyed cannot be restored,
the dead brought back to life."

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dwib [Posts: 674]
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  • [November 19, 2008, 03:29:44 AM]
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« Reply #1 on: November 19, 2008, 03:29:44 AM »
I have a major problem with Slots, as you have the potential to get nothing useful, and with every turn you get being crucial to the battle, I think a "wheel of fortune" type of ability might be more practical to FFT. I mean I don't want Lagomorph popping up and then having to wait for ~10 people to have their turns before another shot at a real ability... That's just my opinion. Fuck Setzer GrabWEENIES :x
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by dwib »
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The Damned [Posts: 2168]
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  • [November 19, 2008, 05:20:18 PM]
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« Reply #2 on: November 19, 2008, 05:20:18 PM »
Quote from: "dwib"
Fuck Setzer GrabWEENIES :x

Heh. I guess he does sort of look like Michael Jackson now that I think about it.

You needn't be so angry, though, since Slots are TOTALLY unfeasible right now with the current formula and any formula that could be made up would probably be a)really freaking complicated and b)needa lot of space, means there's only six or seven formula it could replace.

(Though I don't see what the problem would be to trying to add formulas to all that apparently "free" space after 60.)

Quote from: "LastingDawn"
Interesting... quite a few odd ones in there, though how on earth is the gambler even closely related to the Dark Knight? I must have missed something close regarding to such...


I think the relation is that both Dark Knight and Gambler risk their health constantly in an attempt to defeat their enemies, it's just that you can't see the correlation as Dark Knights are far more consistent with their "positive" results whereas Gambler's moves tend to be 50/50, if that, in "favor" of the Gambler.

Speaking of which, I managed to think up some moves last night that are still rather subpar, but aren't reliant on card names (which you're now using exclusively as weapons--I say "exclusively" since it seems necessary to avoid confusion between this new class and the Reliquian new class). As with the Treasure Item ideas, I remember trying to come up with Gambler a year and a half before my laptop erased itself, but I think what I came up with now was a bit better, if only because it was more fun.

I'm going to rather precise with the following, if only because I made sure that all formulas had some Random element--this was good practice in seeing what formulas had random elements and seeing that all of three random hit ones were based solely on MA. Please assume some constants, though, like Animate on Miss being Off unless so said and Evadeable being off unless so said:

  • Ability Name: Tantalize - Description: "A sudden temptation with vice could easily befuddle the enemy or even sweep them off their feet." - Formula: 29 Opposite Sex: Hit_(MA+X)% Else Miss - X Variable: 60 - Range: 3 - Effect Area: 0 - Vertical: 2 - Inflict Status: Random Confuse, Charm - CT: 0 - MP: 3.
  • Ability Name: Good Spirits - Description: "A small respite is taken and a small beverage is consumed in an attempt to restore vitality." - Formula: 4B (Rdm (1...9)) 100% Status - Range: 4 - Effect Area: 0 - Vertical: 1 - Inflict Status: Separate Regen, Haste - CT: 1 - Follow Target: Yes - Target Self: Yes - Hit Caster: Yes. [I not sure whether Hit Caster is necessary for you to be able to target yourself. I'm assuming that isn't, but I've seen a technique whether either them is not checked off.]
  • Ability Name: Sour Spirits - Description: "Being sometime of a sore loser at times, an attempt is made to poison the enemy through drink, though the poison may be ineffective or the drink refused." - Formula: 4B (Rdm (1...9)) 100% Status - Range: 3 - Effect Area: 0 - Vertical: 1 - Inflict Status: Separate Poison, Death Sentence, Slow - CT: 1 - Follow Target: Yes - Evadable: Yes.
  • Ability Name: Fixed Dice - Description "An infamous gambling tool, two six-sided dice are thrown after a swift battle enchantment is said. They have a mysterious weight...." - Formula: 5E Dmg ((MA+Y)/2*MA) #Hit_(X+1) 6.25% Status - X Variable: 11 - Y Variable: 0 - Range: 4 - Effect Area: 1 - Vertical: 3 - Inflict Status: All Poison - CT: 4 - MP: 12 - Hit Caster: Yes. [I eventually realized that using this formula means that this ability will always hit 12 times, which is why Dark Whisper is so fucking annoying since it has Animate on Miss checked off.]
  • Ability Name: Dice - Description: "An infamous gambling tool, two six-sided dice are thrown after a swift battle enchantment is said." Formula: 1E Dmg_((MA+Y)*MA/2) #Hit (Rdm {1,X}) - X Variable: 12 - Y Variable: 0 - Range: 3 - Effect Area: 1 - Vertical 3 - Inflict Status: Separate Poison - CT: 2 - MP: 6 - Follow Target: Yes - Hit Caster: Yes. (This seems like a less broken alternative, though this formula would normally be more powerful than 5E if Y is not equal to 0. I'm also not sure if the Separate Poison is necessary since I don't think the success rate of this formula's status is 100% in the first place considering how rarely Space Storage [Back] inflicts anything. That may just be because I have no luck, though.)
  • Ability Name: Darts - Description: "Another infamous gambling tool, these small items are more a nuisance than a threat, at least when it comes to purely physical injuries." - Formula: 1F Dmg_((100-CasF)*(100-TarF)*(MA+Y)*MA/2) #Hit (Rdm {1,X})  - X Variable: 3 - Y Variable: 10 - Range: 4 - Effect Area: 1 - Vertical: 1 - Inflict Status: Separate Death Sentence, Dead - CT: 0 - MP: 12 - Hit Caster: No - Animate on Miss: Yes.
  • Ability Name: Bet/Dare/Wager - Description: "The most infamous and dangerous gambling tool is one's mouth." - Formula: 5E Dmg: ((MA+Y)/2*MA) #Hit (X+1) 6.25% Status - X Variable: 12 - Y Variable: 0 - Range: 0 - Effect Area: 2 - Vertical: 3 - Inflict Status: Separate All (except Crystal, Jump, Dark/Evil Looking, Treasure, Reraise, Transparent, Chicken, Frog and Wall) - CT: 3 - MP: 10 - Hit Allies: No - Auto: Yes - Target Self: Yes - Hit Caster: Yes.
  • Ability Name: Collect Debt - Description: "What is owed is what is owed." - Formula: 0E Dmg_(Y)% Hit_F(MA+X)% 100% Status Hide Status - X Variable: 30 - Y Variable: 50 - Range: 1 - Effect Area: 0 - Vertical: 1 - Inflict Status: Cancel Any Negative Status (except for Crystal, Dead, Treasure, Blood Suck and Undead) - CT: 4 - MP: 20 - Follow Target: Yes - Hit Caster: No.
  • Ability Name: Dodge Debt - Description: "And what is owed can only be collected from the living." - Formula: 52 Dmg_(CasMaxHP - CasCurHP) Add Status Caster in AOE: DmgSelf_(CasCurHP) NS - Range: 0 - Effect Area: 1 - Inflict Status: Separate Death Sentence - CT: 4 - MP: 24.



Ugh. That took a while to copy down manually.

Anyway, I can't really say much else about Gamblers at the moment.

Therefore, I merely say that I also updated the Item Attribute list in the Weapon thread last night, but I didn't want to double post, so I just waited until I was done posting this to inform you (if you hadn't already noticed).
« Last Edit: November 23, 2008, 03:31:03 PM by The Damned »
"Sorrow cannot be abolished. It is meaningless to try." - FFX's Yunalesca

"Good and evil are relative, but being a dick cannot be allowed." - Oglaf's Thaumaturge in "The Abyss"

"Well, see, the real magic isn't believing in yourself. The real magic is manipulating people by telling them to believe in themselves. The more you believe, the less you check facts."  - Oglaf's Vanka in "Conviction"
LastingDawn [Posts: 3452]
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  • [November 19, 2008, 06:24:22 PM]
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« Reply #3 on: November 19, 2008, 06:24:22 PM »
Interesting, very interesting skillset...  the only trouble is that the Gambler is mainly a PA class, therefore making a lot of these, unfortunately, relatively useless. While Tantalize is a Very interesting spell, though that means I'll need to lower the accuracy of genderless Steal Heart, in the Traveler's skillset, no problem on that. I really like Collect Debt as well, that one looks quite interesting to use... Good Spirits is also Very unique! I like it! But Sour Spirits is a very odd concept... why would an enemy drink anything given to them well...  by an enemy? But just to keep in mind that the Gambler is a PA class.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by LastingDawn »
"Moment's anger can revert to joy,
sadness can be turned to delight.
A nation destroyed cannot be restored,
the dead brought back to life."

Art of War

Beta & Gretchen Forever!!!!
Unreliable as a Mime.
The Damned [Posts: 2168]
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  • [November 19, 2008, 06:38:45 PM]
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« Reply #4 on: November 19, 2008, 06:38:45 PM »
That's part of the problem I was noticing with the most of the Rdm skills--they only take MA into account. I wasn't aware that Gambler was an PA class, which makes these skills even less powerful than I thought they would be, but you could just up the Y variables if so neccesary. I mean, once MA starts to do get into double digit territory, it starts to do some respectable damage. (Well, for 1E and 5E, 1F...).

Basically, with the formulas now,considering the difficulty I had thinking of abilities as is, I can't think of any (significant number of) skills that would use the few Rdm, PA-based formulas there are. (Or that there is. Is there anything besides Throw Stone and Dash? I'm not even sure if they use the same formula since I don't have FFTPatcher open at the moment.)

If you made Steal Heart genderless, then, yeah, you might want to lower X a bit. I initially shooting for Tantalize to be in-between vanilla Steal Heart's X as 50 and vanilla Allure's X as 70--I was surprised at learning that Allure only had X as 70 last night because I've seen it not be 100%.

Lastly, I don't see Sour Spirits as that bizarre of a technique when you're keeping Mediators around. I mean, why would an enemy bother talking to an enemy in battle, much less listening to them?

The answer is because people are stupid.

(Besides, considering Sour Spirits is a healing attack, oxymoron aside, it's meant to be a deceptive attack rather than "Hey, drink this bottle of bleach".)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by The Damned »
"Sorrow cannot be abolished. It is meaningless to try." - FFX's Yunalesca

"Good and evil are relative, but being a dick cannot be allowed." - Oglaf's Thaumaturge in "The Abyss"

"Well, see, the real magic isn't believing in yourself. The real magic is manipulating people by telling them to believe in themselves. The more you believe, the less you check facts."  - Oglaf's Vanka in "Conviction"
LastingDawn [Posts: 3452]
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  • [November 19, 2008, 07:11:34 PM]
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« Reply #5 on: November 19, 2008, 07:11:34 PM »
Well technically Gambler need not actually deal *too much* with Gambling, if it does then people won't want to use them (just like Gadgeteers) but the Card ideas from the first page, and your drink ideas are pretty solid works! Not to mention Tantalize.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by LastingDawn »
"Moment's anger can revert to joy,
sadness can be turned to delight.
A nation destroyed cannot be restored,
the dead brought back to life."

Art of War

Beta & Gretchen Forever!!!!
Unreliable as a Mime.
The Damned [Posts: 2168]
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  • [November 19, 2008, 07:54:46 PM]
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« Reply #6 on: November 19, 2008, 07:54:46 PM »
I don't think I would have a problem with the Card-based attacks if you made them only work when having Cards equipped. Otherwise, they would seem a bit too random even for Gambler despite the gambling theme IMO.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by The Damned »
"Sorrow cannot be abolished. It is meaningless to try." - FFX's Yunalesca

"Good and evil are relative, but being a dick cannot be allowed." - Oglaf's Thaumaturge in "The Abyss"

"Well, see, the real magic isn't believing in yourself. The real magic is manipulating people by telling them to believe in themselves. The more you believe, the less you check facts."  - Oglaf's Vanka in "Conviction"
LastingDawn [Posts: 3452]
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  • [November 19, 2008, 08:06:59 PM]
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« Reply #7 on: November 19, 2008, 08:06:59 PM »
That will require waiting for Zodiac's weapon fix, according to him it works 100% with players, and I am willing to take that at face value, and not care about the useless AI. Of course, allowing me to use it, might be a bit of a stretch... I'll ask him about it.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by LastingDawn »
"Moment's anger can revert to joy,
sadness can be turned to delight.
A nation destroyed cannot be restored,
the dead brought back to life."

Art of War

Beta & Gretchen Forever!!!!
Unreliable as a Mime.
The Damned [Posts: 2168]
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  • [November 19, 2008, 08:11:09 PM]
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« Reply #8 on: November 19, 2008, 08:11:09 PM »
I thought you could perhaps have Materia Blade take multiple "booleans", but perhaps not....
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by The Damned »
"Sorrow cannot be abolished. It is meaningless to try." - FFX's Yunalesca

"Good and evil are relative, but being a dick cannot be allowed." - Oglaf's Thaumaturge in "The Abyss"

"Well, see, the real magic isn't believing in yourself. The real magic is manipulating people by telling them to believe in themselves. The more you believe, the less you check facts."  - Oglaf's Vanka in "Conviction"
LastingDawn [Posts: 3452]
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  • [November 19, 2008, 08:17:41 PM]
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« Reply #9 on: November 19, 2008, 08:17:41 PM »
The Boolean for the Materia Blade is currently over the Magic Ring, which allows the use of Secret Skills, but there's only 2 (duh...) in the game. Well one is secret and relatively difficult to get, but regardless... onoly one Boolean that *tells* the game that it is the Item Selected, that's really all. But his fix should help us a lot.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by LastingDawn »
"Moment's anger can revert to joy,
sadness can be turned to delight.
A nation destroyed cannot be restored,
the dead brought back to life."

Art of War

Beta & Gretchen Forever!!!!
Miroshi Beshima [Posts: 301]
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  • [November 19, 2008, 11:15:11 PM]
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« Reply #10 on: November 19, 2008, 11:15:11 PM »
Wow LD im making a gambler in my patch thats similar to the gadgeteer lol. Great minds think alike lol. I finished all the abilities for my gambler already I kinda just did status affecting skills that hit everywhere but on random people. I have a blackshade (from FFXII) sorta spell for it. Theres a formula that does a level 1/2/3 element depending on the abilities element. So I made it elements fire, thunder, and ice so itd do one of the spells on random people. Feel free to use the idea if you want.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by Miroshi Beshima »
boomkick
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  • [November 20, 2008, 12:14:15 AM]
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« Reply #11 on: November 20, 2008, 12:14:15 AM »
A gambler in my opinion gambles with his skills. His Deck is what he attacks with and his skills either work for him or he loses. Thats what i usually thought it was in real life. But in FF the gamblers in other games are really OP and stuff...
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by boomkick »
LastingDawn [Posts: 3452]
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  • [November 20, 2008, 03:34:00 AM]
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« Reply #12 on: November 20, 2008, 03:34:00 AM »
Precisely, and these skills do quite a bit of that, maybe I should have worded myself more carefully... but the Life or Death doesn't appeal to me too much. If their skills would be chancy, they would lose quite a bit of their value. Exactly like the Tinker, I do like the 50% chance pass or fail, but also to make their skills more varied the Spirits seem like excellent ideas, and it is in a Gambler's attitude to be flirtatious, therefore Tantalize works perfectly! Though I also like your skills on the first page, and they didn't deal *too* much with chance.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by LastingDawn »
"Moment's anger can revert to joy,
sadness can be turned to delight.
A nation destroyed cannot be restored,
the dead brought back to life."

Art of War

Beta & Gretchen Forever!!!!
Unreliable as a Mime.
The Damned [Posts: 2168]
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  • [November 20, 2008, 06:06:37 AM]
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« Reply #13 on: November 20, 2008, 06:06:37 AM »
Okay, so I was messing around with the skillset I made up/suggested + an approximation of what I thought would work for Roulette and now I'm feeling completely retarded.

  • I forgot to give the "drinks" Direct, which prevents them from going through people/over their heads.
  • I somehow didn't realize that 4B is Phoenix Down's "formula" even though Phoenix Down doesn't seem to actually use it. This means it automatically kills undead. Also, it's not exactly random when it comes to healing people since it seems to heal a random fixed amount for the entire duration of the battle (like 1 or 2). The three formula above 4B are also Item-related. Sigh.
  • For some reason, even with the Separate on, whenever one of the drinks hit (for some reason, Good Spirits is evadable even though it showed 100%), despite Separate one of the statuses would ALWAYS be added instead of 25% of the time. It was the same with Sour Spirits.
  • I don't get what makes Songs and Dances able to hit only certain panels. Maybe it's because both Hit Enemies and Hit Allies is checked, but this is rather troublesome since I had wanted to change Songs and Dances in my patch....
  • Speaking of troublesome patches, apparently Steal can't be altered either since it was bitching at me and yet Basic Skill worked fine when I replaced it with "Gamble".



Ugh.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by The Damned »
"Sorrow cannot be abolished. It is meaningless to try." - FFX's Yunalesca

"Good and evil are relative, but being a dick cannot be allowed." - Oglaf's Thaumaturge in "The Abyss"

"Well, see, the real magic isn't believing in yourself. The real magic is manipulating people by telling them to believe in themselves. The more you believe, the less you check facts."  - Oglaf's Vanka in "Conviction"
Skip Sandwich [Posts: 994]
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  • [November 20, 2008, 11:22:44 AM]
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« Reply #14 on: November 20, 2008, 11:22:44 AM »
the reason a roulette skill won't work is because the random fire flag uses the skills ENTIRE area, which for dance or sing which targets the entire battlefield...is the entire battlefield. You could still have a hidden unit in some battle with say always Transparent, Wall, and Don't Move, with Wall set to count as a K.O. And give them a skill that targets random panels on the battlefield with lightning for extra stressfull storm battles.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by Skip Sandwich »
“Dave?  Are you there?”
“Yeah.  I can’t get you through the cell now.”
“You have to talk through the bratwurst from now on. I’m sorry. I didn’t know it would do that.”
http://www.johndiesattheend.com
LastingDawn [Posts: 3452]
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  • [November 20, 2008, 08:26:46 PM]
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« Reply #15 on: November 20, 2008, 08:26:46 PM »
Yes, thats the reason Random Roulette won't work but a static 50% chance of hitting in the first place, will make the skill, basically do what was originally intended.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by LastingDawn »
"Moment's anger can revert to joy,
sadness can be turned to delight.
A nation destroyed cannot be restored,
the dead brought back to life."

Art of War

Beta & Gretchen Forever!!!!
ShadowGamerDarkly
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  • [November 21, 2008, 10:27:12 AM]
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« Reply #16 on: November 21, 2008, 10:27:12 AM »
Question.
These Card Deck Weapons, what there range going to be?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by ShadowGamerDarkly »
boomkick
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  • [November 21, 2008, 02:44:23 PM]
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« Reply #17 on: November 21, 2008, 02:44:23 PM »
I reason they would be 2. Just because you can throw them (or three if you want to be super technical and obey the laws of the real world).
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by boomkick »
Skip Sandwich [Posts: 994]
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  • [November 21, 2008, 11:01:20 PM]
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« Reply #18 on: November 21, 2008, 11:01:20 PM »
I figure we can edit the images for the cloth weapons and have them stretch out in an interconnected strip. I forget who, but someone around here was able to sucessfully edit the battle sprites for weapons, so I know it can be done.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by Skip Sandwich »
“Dave?  Are you there?”
“Yeah.  I can’t get you through the cell now.”
“You have to talk through the bratwurst from now on. I’m sorry. I didn’t know it would do that.”
http://www.johndiesattheend.com
LastingDawn [Posts: 3452]
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  • [November 22, 2008, 06:27:14 AM]
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« Reply #19 on: November 22, 2008, 06:27:14 AM »
Laws of the Real World? That statement confuses me... I don't quite recall ever throwing a card only three panels... then again, eh.. Two panel sounds fine, I should probably compile a skillset from what was said earlier in this thread as well.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by LastingDawn »
"Moment's anger can revert to joy,
sadness can be turned to delight.
A nation destroyed cannot be restored,
the dead brought back to life."

Art of War

Beta & Gretchen Forever!!!!
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