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LastingDawn [Posts: 3415] Logged
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  • [July 30, 2010, 07:17:40 PM]
Dragoon Job Discussion Thread (Rad/Ramza Skillset Update!)
« on: July 30, 2010, 07:17:40 PM »
Dragoons, Dragon Knights of Past Teachings

August 22nd, 2010

It is an ancient practice of the people of Ivalice, it was sponsored by Hero King Mesa, it was a method of survival after the Cataclysm. A Dragoon leader from the Holy Empire of Ydora, by the name of Velana was among the survivors. In her land of Ydora only women were allowed to be taught the arts of the Dragoon, as the Dragoon was Mesa's original military hand, he had little choice but to abide. Thus the camps set around Mesa's land were each protected by a unit of women. The women wore Dragon skulls, in place of steel helmets, to ward off other beasts and demons that would often try to assault the many camps of survivors, they saw almost total success in guarding the people.

Women were the dominant Dragoon for many a year, with each of their leaders commanding them to follow the old ways, they stuck to their classic apparel and original techniques. With the loss of King Mesa's line they became a rather secluded group, similar to the Monks of Germinas, they no longer assisted the world, as it had little reason for their assistance any longer. They eventually faded from the sight of the world, whittling away their time in the sacred mountains of the Forbidden Land Zellea, their collective fate left unknown.

A decade before the Fifty Years War had broken out, scholar's were busy at work with developing new technologies and rediscovering lost ones from the Cataclysm. In an ancient scroll from Ordalia, there was depicted diagrams and techniques for men, and another unknown being, to be taught in the ways of the Dragoon. Realizing that the women Dragoon of a past age originally used these lessons as well Ivalice enacted an event called the "Dragon Knight's Revival". An event of unprecedented attendence. A small fee was neccessary to enter and the commoners took great advantage of this. The country was alight with activity, with instructors sent out to every province to train these potential soldiers, to be Dragon Knights in the inevitable war looming...

While women Dragoon are rarer then their male counterparts many do leave the Forbidden Land Zellea to become normal members of society, though they hold strongly onto their traditions, taught to them by their mothers in the Forbidden Land.


Quote
Dragoon

~

Quote
Dragoon - Really there's several iconics I wish I could put up, but alas.  This'll be fun to divvy....

Iconics
Jump - Duh.  SP*WP damage.  5 range, infinite vert imo.  
Dragon's Cry - 2 range, 2 vert.  Success = PA+90%.  Revives target with 1% HP.  (to review, Fairy rezzes with 50% HP at 4 range and charge time, and cantor 20% with 1 range... this might work?)
(Dragon Lord) - Self-only Float, Reraise, Berserk, Innocent, Reflect, Protect, Shell

Ramza:
Wisdom's Downfall - TarCurMP dmg, 18 MP.  
Bahamut Breath - 3 range linear, MA*10 damage, 30 MP.  Possibly elemental.
Dragon Gambut - Weapon damage + 50% chance to use Vital Sense.
Dragon's Roar - 100% Slow, Self AoE 2 vert 3 MP 32.  Slooooow.
????
Highwind - PA*(high), 4 range. single target.  Deals physical damage and knocks enemy back.  Only useable while under Float status.

Rad:
Soul Sphere - PA*WP MP drain strike.  MP 45.
Dirt Breath- 2 range 1 AoE 2 vert 30 MP MA*10 damage.Earth Elemental.
Mimic Tiamat - 1 range, 3-way attack.  
Dragon Sword - Weapon damage with 50% chance to cast Ghost Strike on your foe.
Dragon's Wings - Fa's * (MA + 180) chance to inflict Float.  Light MP cost, very low CTR.  3 range, 2 AoE.
Bangaa Cry - Will be decided later.

~

"Moment's anger can revert to joy,
sadness can be turned to delight.
A nation destroyed cannot be restored,
the dead brought back to life."

Art of War

Beta & Gretchen Forever!!!!
Winner of the 2nd 1.3 AI Tournament
PX_Timefordeath [Posts: 1782] Logged
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  • [July 31, 2010, 10:02:00 AM]
Re: Dragoon Job Discussion Thread
« Reply #1 on: July 31, 2010, 10:02:00 AM »
I would think that Rad would draw power from the dragons, while Ramza focuses more on the weapons of the dragoon.

So Rad would be more magical, while Ramza heads the physical path. Of course, all is IMO.
LastingDawn [Posts: 3415] Logged
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  • [August 01, 2010, 05:00:16 PM]
Re: Dragoon Job Discussion Thread
« Reply #2 on: August 01, 2010, 05:00:16 PM »
I actually rather like that PX. Yes, that's a fitting theme to go for, in that respects.

"Moment's anger can revert to joy,
sadness can be turned to delight.
A nation destroyed cannot be restored,
the dead brought back to life."

Art of War

Beta & Gretchen Forever!!!!
Serious Business.
GeneralStrife [Posts: 1436] Logged
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  • [August 06, 2010, 06:11:12 PM]
Re: Dragoon Job Discussion Thread
« Reply #3 on: August 06, 2010, 06:11:12 PM »
I would love to see an updated lancer sprite for this job, asmo was working on one that was sweet as hell.
scatttman [Posts: 163] Logged
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  • [August 06, 2010, 07:06:24 PM]
Re: Dragoon Job Discussion Thread
« Reply #4 on: August 06, 2010, 07:06:24 PM »
idea for sprite remake

and for skillset i have some ideas

Highwind - wind elemental attack, rank 4, pulls enemy back (like dash), (you should give the name Highwind to an attack in honor to the FF series)

Dragon Spirit - inflicts reraise on allies.

Dragon Wheel - like monk's spin fist.

Dragon Tears - remove bad status (your choice LD) from allies, rank 1.

Dragon Wings - inflicts fly on caster.
The Lazy Spriter
Kagebunji (Global Moderator) [Posts: 4151] Logged
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  • [August 06, 2010, 08:19:28 PM]
Re: Dragoon Job Discussion Thread
« Reply #5 on: August 06, 2010, 08:19:28 PM »
That art looks awesome. Where you get it from?

Thou art I, and I art thou...
scatttman [Posts: 163] Logged
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  • [August 06, 2010, 08:54:21 PM]
Re: Dragoon Job Discussion Thread
« Reply #6 on: August 06, 2010, 08:54:21 PM »
Quote from: "Kagebunji"
That art looks awesome. Where you get it from?
deviant art jus searched for dragoon
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Kagebunji (Global Moderator) [Posts: 4151] Logged
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  • [August 06, 2010, 09:03:20 PM]
Re: Dragoon Job Discussion Thread
« Reply #7 on: August 06, 2010, 09:03:20 PM »
I didn't knew Deviant Art is soo powerfull. Time for some searches !

Thou art I, and I art thou...
LastingDawn [Posts: 3415] Logged
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  • [August 07, 2010, 07:41:29 PM]
Re: Dragoon Job Discussion Thread
« Reply #8 on: August 07, 2010, 07:41:29 PM »
Quote from: "scatttman"
idea for sprite remake

and for skillset i have some ideas

Highwind - wind elemental attack, rank 4, pulls enemy back (like dash), (you should give the name Highwind to an attack in honor to the FF series)

Dragon Spirit - inflicts reraise on allies.

Dragon Wheel - like monk's spin fist.

Dragon Tears - remove bad status (your choice LD) from allies, rank 1.

Dragon Wings - inflicts fly on caster.

That looks Perfect for the Male Dragoon! I think the other concept may be just a little complicated to... well ever see completed, but this one fits a Male Dragoon to a T! As for the skills...  I do like the name of "Highwind" for a skill, but I'm afraid that one isn't easily possible, though that is a point of curiosity... perhaps a final skill, but I will have to think on its effect.

Dragon Spirit is... well the reaction. I'm not too fond of giving a varied class such a powerful skill as Reraise.

Dragon Wheel... a very nice name, but it would need do something more than Spin Fist... though... Monk's now have Turning Gale. So maybe a classic (Plus power) vanilla Spin Fist, would work... especially since in most cases Dragoon's will be striking from two squares away.

Dragon Tears... hmm... That is an odd one. I'm not sure I want Dragoon's doing All of that now.

Dragon Wings, Float, hmm? I could make skills that require Float, maybe you need Float to use whatever Highwind would be? Alright, that one will stay. Never know when it might come in handy (also it protects from the strongest ordinary sword)

"Moment's anger can revert to joy,
sadness can be turned to delight.
A nation destroyed cannot be restored,
the dead brought back to life."

Art of War

Beta & Gretchen Forever!!!!
mav [Posts: 2595] Logged
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  • [August 07, 2010, 08:21:26 PM]
Re: Dragoon Job Discussion Thread
« Reply #9 on: August 07, 2010, 08:21:26 PM »
Having a skill called Highwind would be a great throwback to the classic Final Fantasy games. This class uses spear/lances/polearms, right? Why not give them a piercing ability, better than physical attacks but worse than Vital Sense? I guess this ability would be a little too simple, but maybe you could make it work. Dragon Tears sounds somewhat reminiscent of Dragonmend, a la Dragon Knights in Revenant Wings.

Would it be possible to give them a skill similar to Wyrmkiller from FFTA? Dragoons could use this skill to deal double damage to Dragons. Maybe it's too impractical or impossible.


I'm not too good with skills, but I'll try and give my input wherever I can. Keep up the good work, everyone.
Archael Logged
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  • [August 19, 2010, 06:07:10 PM]
Re: Dragoon Job Discussion Thread
« Reply #10 on: August 19, 2010, 06:07:10 PM »
I think the writing for these needs some work

I know that they are just rough ideas for their job backrounds, but seriously, sometimes simpler is better... there is just so much smoke and mist description for everything Mercenaries related that I think you should simplify down a bit

Quote
It is an ancient practice of the people of Ivalice, it was sponsored by Hero King Mesa, it was a method of survival after the Cataclysm.
What was the ancient practice and survival method? Becoming a Dragoon? Dragooning? What?

Quote
A Dragoon leader from the Holy Empire of Ydora, by the name of Velana was among the survivors.
The survivors of what, of the Cataclysm??? Now I'm dealing with two "ancient hero king figures" in just 2 sentences. Hero King Mesa, and the Holy Empire Ydora.

Quote
In her land of Ydora only women were allowed to be taught the arts of the Dragoon, as the Dragoon was Mesa's original military hand, he had little choice but to abide. Thus the camps set around Mesa's land were each protected by a unit of women. The women wore Dragon skulls, in place of steel helmets, to ward off other beasts and demons that would often try to assault the many camps of survivors, they saw almost total success in guarding the people. Women were the dominant Dragoon for many a year, with each of their leaders commanding them to follow the old ways, they stuck to their classic apparel and original techniques. With the loss of King Mesa's line they became a rather secluded group, similar to the Monks of Germinas, they no longer assisted the world, as it had little reason for their assistance any longer. They eventually faded from the sight of the world, whittling away their time in the sacred mountains of the Forbidden Land Zellea, their collective fate left unknown.

I still don't see a why men can't become Dragoons... is this just a lore cop-out for a female only job? Or maybe not... (cont)

Quote
A decade before the Fifty Years War had broken out, scholar's were busy at work with developing new technologies and rediscovering lost ones from the Cataclysm. In an ancient scroll from Ordalia, there was depicted diagrams and techniques for men, and another unknown being, to be taught in the ways of the Dragoon. Realizing that the women Dragoon of a past age originally used these lessons as well Ivalice enacted an event called the "Dragon Knight's Revival". An event of unprecedented attendence. A small fee was neccessary to enter and the commoners took great advantage of this. The country was alight with activity, with instructors sent out to every province to train these potential soldiers, to be Dragon Knights in the inevitable war looming...

Ok, wait. There were diagrams depicted in a scroll from Ordalia. But wasn't the Dragoon tradition from the land of Ydora? Or is Ydora in Ordalia? What about Hero King Mesa's lands?? Or is that in Ordalia too? I'm very confused at this point.

Quote
While women Dragoon are rarer then their male counterparts many do leave the Forbidden Land Zellea to become normal members of society, though they hold strongly onto their traditions, taught to them by their mothers in the Forbidden Land.

Ok and now ALL women Dragoon are from the Forbidden Land Zellea? ALL of them moved there? What about Ydora? Ordalia? There is alot of lore that is confusing and is not explained very well.



Spell desc:

Quote
   Soul Sphere - PA * WP Drain MP, Weapon Strike, MP 45 - Draws out a massive amount of mist to assault their opponent's mist and draw it back into themselves.

Draws out a massive amount of mist to assault their opponent's mist and draw it back into themselves???

Quote
   Dragon Breath - (MA * 10 ) Range 2, Area 1, Vertical 2, 30 MP - From deep within manages to breath fire, using a unique form of mist conceptualizing.

This is OK, but I don't think "conceptualizing" is the word you're looking for here

Quote
   Wisdom's Downfall - TarCurMP Dmg, Weapon Range, 18 MP - Manifests the mist within their opponent as several entities of pain, thus the spear does not strike them, but only ensorcels the mist within their foe.

O_O what.

Quote
   (Secret Skill) Dragon Lord - Hit (F_MA+200%) - Float, Reraise, Berserk, Innocent, Reflect, Protect, Shell, Innocent - Calls out to the ancestral spirit and loses themselves in a madness, while they are protected fully from the affects of magic.

lose themselves

effects of magic



^ that is great, a sprite like that would be great

Overall I'm still very confused as to what this job is, after reading all that text. Interestingly enough, a simple description like "Warrior who mimics the movements of dragons and wields a spear" would clear the entire thing up. I'm not saying it has to be THAT simplistic, but try to find a middle ground from that and from the World of Warcraft-like (retcon) explanation you have now.
LastingDawn [Posts: 3415] Logged
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  • [August 19, 2010, 06:43:58 PM]
Re: Dragoon Job Discussion Thread
« Reply #11 on: August 19, 2010, 06:43:58 PM »
Quote from: "Archael"
I think the writing for these needs some work

I know that they are just rough ideas for their job backrounds, but seriously, sometimes simpler is better... there is just so much smoke and mist description for everything Mercenaries related that I think you should simplify down a bit

Oh these won't be what you see when you hit select, I assure you. This is just flavor text.

Quote
It is an ancient practice of the people of Ivalice, it was sponsored by Hero King Mesa, it was a method of survival after the Cataclysm.

Quote
What was the ancient practice and survival method? Becoming a Dragoon? Dragooning? What?

Dragoon, yes. Since monsters roamed the land en masse after the cataclysm. It would be wise to have a warrior skilled in the mightiest of monsters (Dragons) art.

Quote
A Dragoon leader from the Holy Empire of Ydora, by the name of Velana was among the survivors.

Quote
The survivors of what, of the Cataclysm??? Now I'm dealing with two "ancient hero king figures" in just 2 sentences. Hero King Mesa, and the Holy Empire Ydora.

Yes, the Cataclysm. Velana is just the commander of the Dragoons under Hero King Mesa,  She's no Hero-King. The Holy Empire Ydora was the reason St. Ajora was killed. Murond fell beneath the waves and we surmise that this was also the start of the Cataclysm due to how close the two events are on the timeline. Holy Empire of Ydora also apparently disappeared somewhere in the interim.


Quote
In her land of Ydora only women were allowed to be taught the arts of the Dragoon, as the Dragoon was Mesa's original military hand, he had little choice but to abide. Thus the camps set around Mesa's land were each protected by a unit of women. The women wore Dragon skulls, in place of steel helmets, to ward off other beasts and demons that would often try to assault the many camps of survivors, they saw almost total success in guarding the people. Women were the dominant Dragoon for many a year, with each of their leaders commanding them to follow the old ways, they stuck to their classic apparel and original techniques. With the loss of King Mesa's line they became a rather secluded group, similar to the Monks of Germinas, they no longer assisted the world, as it had little reason for their assistance any longer. They eventually faded from the sight of the world, whittling away their time in the sacred mountains of the Forbidden Land Zellea, their collective fate left unknown.

Quote
I still don't see a why men can't become Dragoons... is this just a lore cop-out for a female only job? Or maybe not... (cont)

Oh they can. It's not a female job, its explaining why the woman sprite of Dragoon looks so radically different from the males sprite. (Women wear... well Dragon skulls and the like, men look more traditional)

Quote
A decade before the Fifty Years War had broken out, scholar's were busy at work with developing new technologies and rediscovering lost ones from the Cataclysm. In an ancient scroll from Ordalia, there was depicted diagrams and techniques for men, and another unknown being, to be taught in the ways of the Dragoon. Realizing that the women Dragoon of a past age originally used these lessons as well Ivalice enacted an event called the "Dragon Knight's Revival". An event of unprecedented attendence. A small fee was neccessary to enter and the commoners took great advantage of this. The country was alight with activity, with instructors sent out to every province to train these potential soldiers, to be Dragon Knights in the inevitable war looming...

Quote
Ok, wait. There were diagrams depicted in a scroll from Ordalia. But wasn't the Dragoon tradition from the land of Ydora? Or is Ydora in Ordalia? What about Hero King Mesa's lands?? Or is that in Ordalia too? I'm very confused at this point.

Dragoons existed before the Cataclysm, all throughout Ivalice. It just so happened that Ydora's Dragoon Leader survived the Cataclysm and joined with Hero King Mesa. The documents the scholar's found predate the Cataclysm.  Once again Dragoons existed all throughout Ivalice, Ordalia and further east of such, before the world was thrown into chaos (Cataclysm) . This is more of a nod to FFTA2, where Hume and Bangaa can both become Dragoons (A lot of FFTA2 takes place in Ordalia). It's only explaining how the technology of Dragoons fell back into the hands of men, so reliance wasn't only needed on the far off and secluded group of mountain dwelling female Dragoon. Also Hero King Mesa's Lands was likely only Ivalice proper. My own personal theory is that the Atkascha line is lightly related to him, but perhaps not, since one of the errands in the original FFT is about finding one of his descendants.


Quote
While women Dragoon are rarer then their male counterparts many do leave the Forbidden Land Zellea to become normal members of society, though they hold strongly onto their traditions, taught to them by their mothers in the Forbidden Land.

Quote
Ok and now ALL women Dragoon are from the Forbidden Land Zellea? ALL of them moved there? What about Ydora? Ordalia? There is alot of lore that is confusing and is not explained very well.

Ydora is buried benath the waves, Ordalia was where the scrolls from Before the Cataclysm were, but yes, I could be clearer on that.



Spell desc:

Quote
   Soul Sphere - PA * WP Drain MP, Weapon Strike, MP 45 - Draws out a massive amount of mist to assault their opponent's mist and draw it back into themselves.

Quote
Draws out a massive amount of mist to assault their opponent's mist and draw it back into themselves???

It's using Throw Spirit animation, unfortunately that doesn't quite have the "Drawing back" effect into it. That's the reason for the description.

Quote
   Dragon Breath - (MA * 10 ) Range 2, Area 1, Vertical 2, 30 MP - From deep within manages to breath fire, using a unique form of mist conceptualizing.

Quote
This is OK, but I don't think "conceptualizing" is the word you're looking for here

Yeah... I think you're right on that one. Also that move is likely gone. Well, will need a new description, nonetheless.

Quote
   Wisdom's Downfall - TarCurMP Dmg, Weapon Range, 18 MP - Manifests the mist within their opponent as several entities of pain, thus the spear does not strike them, but only ensorcels the mist within their foe.

Quote
O_O what.

Let me explain, the mist from within is turned into an immediate shooting pain,  this is to keep it inline with its actual effect. It likely will not have a spear strike in the final version, mainly because that makes no sense.

Quote
   (Secret Skill) Dragon Lord - Hit (F_MA+200%) - Float, Reraise, Berserk, Innocent, Reflect, Protect, Shell, Innocent - Calls out to the ancestral spirit and loses themselves in a madness, while they are protected fully from the affects of magic.

Quote
lose themselves

effects of magic

Duly noted.



^ that is great, a sprite like that would be great

Overall I'm still very confused as to what this job is, after reading all that text. Interestingly enough, a simple description like "Warrior who mimics the movements of dragons and wields a spear" would clear the entire thing up. I'm not saying it has to be THAT simplistic, but try to find a middle ground from that and from the World of Warcraft-like (retcon) explanation you have now.[/quote][/quote]

Well I hope I made it a bit clearer for you.

"Moment's anger can revert to joy,
sadness can be turned to delight.
A nation destroyed cannot be restored,
the dead brought back to life."

Art of War

Beta & Gretchen Forever!!!!
Archael Logged
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  • [August 19, 2010, 06:46:45 PM]
Re: Dragoon Job Discussion Thread
« Reply #12 on: August 19, 2010, 06:46:45 PM »
yes, thank you

about this one

Quote
Draws out a massive amount of mist to assault their opponent's mist and draw it back into themselves???

I now know that it's because of the animation... but the writing itself makes no sense?

read it out loud

also, you just said the animation doesn't have the drawing back part to it, so why is it that way in the text?

Draws out a massive amount of mist from me to attack YOUR mist? then draw BOTH our mists back into me? what? NARUTO>!?!?

is mist some spiritual life force in mercenaries???
LastingDawn [Posts: 3415] Logged
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  • [August 19, 2010, 06:59:08 PM]
Re: Dragoon Job Discussion Thread
« Reply #13 on: August 19, 2010, 06:59:08 PM »
Yes, that description will likely be changed up. Really all that needs to be known is that it does TarCurMP Damage, I might link it to the story of Longibunne now that I think on it.

Mist in Ivalice has always been the source of magic, I'm willing to bet (though not mentioned by name) it exists in FFT... indeed it does. The errands mention Mist in some light terms.

"Moment's anger can revert to joy,
sadness can be turned to delight.
A nation destroyed cannot be restored,
the dead brought back to life."

Art of War

Beta & Gretchen Forever!!!!
Archael Logged
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  • [August 19, 2010, 07:01:28 PM]
Re: Dragoon Job Discussion Thread
« Reply #14 on: August 19, 2010, 07:01:28 PM »
Quote from: "LastingDawn"
Mist in Ivalice has always been the source of magic, I'm willing to bet (though not mentioned by name) it exists in FFT... indeed it does. The errands mention Mist in some light terms.

Really? In 10+ years of playing FFT I've never heard of Mist or a term related to it

where are you getting this from?

I think a much more notable "source of magic" would be something like a Zodiac Stone

Mist is something I've never heard of, ever

well, anyway, the writing could use some improvement
« Last Edit: August 19, 2010, 07:05:04 PM by Archael »
The Lazy Spriter
Kagebunji (Global Moderator) [Posts: 4151] Logged
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  • [August 19, 2010, 07:02:13 PM]
Re: Dragoon Job Discussion Thread
« Reply #15 on: August 19, 2010, 07:02:13 PM »
Sidequests, it was there, I recall it too.

Thou art I, and I art thou...
I am serious...and don't call me Shirley.
Tigerspike [Posts: 139] Logged
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  • [August 19, 2010, 07:04:15 PM]
Re: Dragoon Job Discussion Thread
« Reply #16 on: August 19, 2010, 07:04:15 PM »
Sounds pretty cool, LD.  Just a thought about the Soothe Monster ability--how about the possibility to have it fail?  Like potentially causing Berserk or confusion instead of sleep.  It seems like there should be an amount of skill/adequate stats to use it properly, like the mediator skills.

Oh come now. That doesn't even make sense. How can flimsy paper possibly beat the raw density of stone?
LastingDawn [Posts: 3415] Logged
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  • [August 19, 2010, 07:05:55 PM]
Re: Dragoon Job Discussion Thread
« Reply #17 on: August 19, 2010, 07:05:55 PM »
Ah, well Tigerspike, a lot of this is actually revamped and remastered in the Unique Skillsets thread, Philsov and Mav have done Amazing work there.

"Moment's anger can revert to joy,
sadness can be turned to delight.
A nation destroyed cannot be restored,
the dead brought back to life."

Art of War

Beta & Gretchen Forever!!!!
I am serious...and don't call me Shirley.
Tigerspike [Posts: 139] Logged
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  • [August 19, 2010, 07:12:05 PM]
Re: Dragoon Job Discussion Thread
« Reply #18 on: August 19, 2010, 07:12:05 PM »
Oh, I see.  I'll go drop on by that thread to see what they've got going on.

Oh come now. That doesn't even make sense. How can flimsy paper possibly beat the raw density of stone?
Guess who is back?
Shade [Posts: 1078] Logged
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  • [August 19, 2010, 07:48:03 PM]
Re: Dragoon Job Discussion Thread
« Reply #19 on: August 19, 2010, 07:48:03 PM »
Quote from: "Archael"
Quote from: "LastingDawn"
Mist in Ivalice has always been the source of magic, I'm willing to bet (though not mentioned by name) it exists in FFT... indeed it does. The errands mention Mist in some light terms.

Really? In 10+ years of playing FFT I've never heard of Mist or a term related to it

where are you getting this from?

I think a much more notable "source of magic" would be something like a Zodiac Stone

Mist is something I've never heard of, ever

well, anyway, the writing could use some improvement





Isn't mist from XII(It sucks).

Upupupu...

Zetsubou
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