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LastingDawn [Posts: 3404] Logged
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  • [August 23, 2010, 05:39:39 PM]
Re: Mercenaries: Unique Synergy Skillsets for Rad/Ramza!
« Reply #40 on: August 23, 2010, 05:39:39 PM »
I will definitely take a look at these, when I have the time (only have 30 minutes before class) I'll let you know what my thoughts are on these, likely tomorrow or Wednesday. I agree fully with you on the statuses, though are you certain you want them so unique to only those certain classes? Also, yes I fully agree with you on the Scryer changes as well and that will be done accordingly. Also were you thinking about any split between the two?

"Moment's anger can revert to joy,
sadness can be turned to delight.
A nation destroyed cannot be restored,
the dead brought back to life."

Art of War

Beta & Gretchen Forever!!!!
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philsov [Posts: 4599] Logged
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  • [August 24, 2010, 02:38:24 PM]
Re: Mercenaries: Unique Synergy Skillsets for Rad/Ramza!
« Reply #41 on: August 24, 2010, 02:38:24 PM »
Quote
I agree fully with you on the statuses, though are you certain you want them so unique to only those certain classes?

Frog, Petrify, Undead, Dead, and Death Sentence are the particularly worst of the bunch between their duration and overall effect.  I don't really mind these being rare and/or only available on the final classes.  Faith and Innocent might be able to find homes elsewhere on the job tree, however.  Inquistor, for example, is still lacking in skills and it may be fitting to give it those status effects (which also opens up at least one ability slot for Red Mage).  

Quote
Also, yes I fully agree with you on the Scryer changes as well and that will be done accordingly. Also were you thinking about any split between the two?

Nothing more than the Faith and Fury thing.  There's currently 14 total items, and of these I can assume 4 (Deepening, Prestige, Faith, Fury) are incredibly rare, leaving us with 10 full time normal abilities which isn't enough to actively divide without like.... 8 "iconics", at which point there really is no point imo.

Edit:

How do stats and growth work in mercenaries?  I know you're planning on a level cap of 50, but are the growths going to be vanilla-like in nature, with similar base stats and growths, or did you plan on tweaking anything around in any field?  Just curious so I can start proposing some hard coeffecients for all this stuff.

Just another rebel plotting rebellion.
LastingDawn [Posts: 3404] Logged
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  • [August 25, 2010, 05:50:53 PM]
Re: Mercenaries: Unique Synergy Skillsets for Rad/Ramza!
« Reply #42 on: August 25, 2010, 05:50:53 PM »
Well, I was going to get rid of all growth aside from HP/MP growth and keep the rest as balanced all around. So one can switch in and out of classes without the worry that they aren't "tailored" for it. Also Male and Female's base stats will be evened so that there is little disparity between the two (mainly done for the benefit of Rad/Ramza)

Also Inquisitor having those two skills makes a good deal of sense.

"Moment's anger can revert to joy,
sadness can be turned to delight.
A nation destroyed cannot be restored,
the dead brought back to life."

Art of War

Beta & Gretchen Forever!!!!
Likes to move it move it.
philsov [Posts: 4599] Logged
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  • [August 26, 2010, 01:30:48 PM]
Re: Mercenaries: Unique Synergy Skillsets for Rad/Ramza!
« Reply #43 on: August 26, 2010, 01:30:48 PM »
and... what are all the growths normalized to?  Is speed growth still 100?  Is PA and MA and HP scaling roughly the same as you'd see in Vanilla/1.3?  In general I'd suggest increased HP scaling so things are less one-shots, but you may also want to go the reduced PA/MA route.  Or you might think its fine how it is.  

Or I can run some numbers and do a proposal of sorts, but I didn't know if you'd ventured that far into the scheme yet >_>.

edit:  rereading this, I can venture a guess to like... 255 growths for PA/MA/Sp?  I... don't really agree with that.  At low levels everyone is too strong relative to HP, or at high levels the opposite.

Just another rebel plotting rebellion.
LastingDawn [Posts: 3404] Logged
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  • [August 26, 2010, 09:16:54 PM]
Re: Mercenaries: Unique Synergy Skillsets for Rad/Ramza!
« Reply #44 on: August 26, 2010, 09:16:54 PM »
Eh? What? Heh, I wasn't very clear... It's all normalized to Sp - 100 PA/MA - 50. HP ranges from... 15 Growth to 8 Growth.MP Growth ranges from ... 16 - 8 Should I lower these and try to balance them more accordingly? Admittedly that is a rather large disparity on this matter.

"Moment's anger can revert to joy,
sadness can be turned to delight.
A nation destroyed cannot be restored,
the dead brought back to life."

Art of War

Beta & Gretchen Forever!!!!
Likes to move it move it.
philsov [Posts: 4599] Logged
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  • [August 26, 2010, 09:29:25 PM]
Re: Mercenaries: Unique Synergy Skillsets for Rad/Ramza!
« Reply #45 on: August 26, 2010, 09:29:25 PM »
Quote
Should I lower these and try to balance them more accordingly?

possibly.

Before I start running numbers, any thoughts on what the males/females will change to?  Right now it's 6/4 and 4/6 PA/MA, respectively.  Were you planning on 5/5 or 6/6 or something else for level 1 stats?

Just another rebel plotting rebellion.
LastingDawn [Posts: 3404] Logged
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  • [August 26, 2010, 10:16:43 PM]
Re: Mercenaries: Unique Synergy Skillsets for Rad/Ramza!
« Reply #46 on: August 26, 2010, 10:16:43 PM »
They'll be evened out. I think 6/6 works well for starting stats. Mainly because some of the weapons and skills are nearly useless with anything less than that.

"Moment's anger can revert to joy,
sadness can be turned to delight.
A nation destroyed cannot be restored,
the dead brought back to life."

Art of War

Beta & Gretchen Forever!!!!
Likes to move it move it.
philsov [Posts: 4599] Logged
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  • [August 27, 2010, 02:41:22 PM]
Re: Mercenaries: Unique Synergy Skillsets for Rad/Ramza!
« Reply #47 on: August 27, 2010, 02:41:22 PM »
I mispoke.  Baseline is 5/5, though I suppose its expanded via multipliers.  Either way, raw value of 81920.

So... with 100 Speed growth, a 120 SPM class will be rocking 10 speed at level 50.  This caps most charging effects to 6 CTR between I can only assume a speed equipment or two plus haste, lest you want some skills to only be viable with short charge, and those can be extended to 12.

With 50 PAC/MAC, a 140 PAM/140 MAM class will be rocking 13 PA at level 50, with 10 at 25 and 7 at 1.  

Meanwhile, an 8 HPC + 140 HPM class will have 288 HP by level 50 (168 at 25), and a 15 HPC + 140 HPM class will have 181 HP at 50 with 111 at 25.  So the difference is 100 HP, which might be too much of a stretch, but I don't know how the health gains from helm/armor is either.  Either way, time to throw out some numbers for all these X's and Y's...

Just another rebel plotting rebellion.
LastingDawn [Posts: 3404] Logged
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  • [August 27, 2010, 10:32:54 PM]
Re: Mercenaries: Unique Synergy Skillsets for Rad/Ramza!
« Reply #48 on: August 27, 2010, 10:32:54 PM »
Helm/Armor is rather low, so yes, I think that HP/MP gap needs covered. The rest look pretty appropriate, what numbers do you suggest? (Also you start at Level 10 in Mercenaries, thus everything around you starts at level 10 as well)

"Moment's anger can revert to joy,
sadness can be turned to delight.
A nation destroyed cannot be restored,
the dead brought back to life."

Art of War

Beta & Gretchen Forever!!!!
Likes to move it move it.
philsov [Posts: 4599] Logged
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  • [August 30, 2010, 05:39:33 PM]
Re: Mercenaries: Unique Synergy Skillsets for Rad/Ramza!
« Reply #49 on: August 30, 2010, 05:39:33 PM »
Well that is an interesting and pleasant twist.  

If we set HP growth for base class to be 8, which is assured through level 10, and then you're a full time HPC class of 15, the HP at 50 is 232 compared to the 288 of an 8 HPC class (at 140 multipliers all around), and a gap of 50 is far more paletteable.

However, the twist to this is that enemy units still suffer from this 100 HP gap.  If we wanted to make enemies not as affected, and assuming a 50 HP gap is ideal, then to match up with an 8 HPC @ 140 HPM at level 50, the lowest growth can be is either 10 (44 gap) or 11 (61 gap).

Ultimately I still think HP needs to be boosted through either growth, multipliers, and/or equips -- or WP/PA/MA reduced, so things are less one-shotty than in normal FFT and 1.3, but this is just me projecting here.  I think all your WP's are a bit lower, which is welcome -- spells can be curbed with X's and Y's, and then all we'd need to do is curb bare-fisted output and we're money... maybe.

A more radical shift would be what zodiac brought up in a discussion about CoP -- high stats are awesome because they allow for a lot more wiggle room.  In low stats, a single point drop in PA plays out drastically different with modifiers like attack up and protect in place.  But when the total PA is like 30, losing a point or two really doesn't provide that level of offset by percentage.  So a unit doing 150 damage to a 300 HP unit has the same effect as a unit doing 300 damage to a 600 HP unit, in the grand scheme of things, but the latter simply flows a lot better, math wise.  Only wrench are enemy boss units, because then they're either capped at 999 with equips or go up to the ???/1000+ level, but even ???'s are able to equip weapons, shields, and accessories provided there isn't HP boosting present.

I know I'm making two simultaneous proposals, but I think they both have merit.  Or, if you don't like, just stick to the either 10 or 11 for HPC gappage.  And while Ramza can get his pre-HP stat modified, Rad will be subjected to growth in whatever class he's in, which seeds all future growth notably.

Just another rebel plotting rebellion.
LastingDawn [Posts: 3404] Logged
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  • [August 31, 2010, 06:14:05 PM]
Re: Mercenaries: Unique Synergy Skillsets for Rad/Ramza!
« Reply #50 on: August 31, 2010, 06:14:05 PM »
I am Very sorry Philsov that I wasn't able to get to this yesterday, I have 10 minutes before class and hardly had enough time to check the forums, let alone post once. (It turns out my sister still hasn't paid our internet bill and said now its pushed back All the way to Sept 23rd, oy... Still getting a good amount of work done though. Onwards with the matter at hand.

Quote from: "philsov"
Well that is an interesting and pleasant twist.  

If we set HP growth for base class to be 8, which is assured through level 10, and then you're a full time HPC class of 15, the HP at 50 is 232 compared to the 288 of an 8 HPC class (at 140 multipliers all around), and a gap of 50 is far more paletteable.

However, the twist to this is that enemy units still suffer from this 100 HP gap.  If we wanted to make enemies not as affected, and assuming a 50 HP gap is ideal, then to match up with an 8 HPC @ 140 HPM at level 50, the lowest growth can be is either 10 (44 gap) or 11 (61 gap).

That is a Very large problem. I think 10/11 is the best way to deal with this, and have 8 be the lowest it can go?

Quote
Ultimately I still think HP needs to be boosted through either growth, multipliers, and/or equips -- or WP/PA/MA reduced, so things are less one-shotty than in normal FFT and 1.3, but this is just me projecting here.  I think all your WP's are a bit lower, which is welcome -- spells can be curbed with X's and Y's, and then all we'd need to do is curb bare-fisted output and we're money... maybe.

Bare Fist we still need to make not two swords... but... I was wondering, why don't we make it WP ^2 and have its WP set at 4? This would guarantee a 32 damage hit. (Because we can't make it Not two-swordable apparently...)

Quote
A more radical shift would be what zodiac brought up in a discussion about CoP -- high stats are awesome because they allow for a lot more wiggle room.  In low stats, a single point drop in PA plays out drastically different with modifiers like attack up and protect in place.  But when the total PA is like 30, losing a point or two really doesn't provide that level of offset by percentage.  So a unit doing 150 damage to a 300 HP unit has the same effect as a unit doing 300 damage to a 600 HP unit, in the grand scheme of things, but the latter simply flows a lot better, math wise.  Only wrench are enemy boss units, because then they're either capped at 999 with equips or go up to the ???/1000+ level, but even ???'s are able to equip weapons, shields, and accessories provided there isn't HP boosting present.

I know I'm making two simultaneous proposals, but I think they both have merit.  Or, if you don't like, just stick to the either 10 or 11 for HPC gappage.  And while Ramza can get his pre-HP stat modified, Rad will be subjected to growth in whatever class he's in, which seeds all future growth notably.

The stats themselves aren't lowered. It's the WP and X/Y's that are for the most part. The stat's are always as they have been in FFT, but this does bring up an interesting dilemma, should we Drastically lower the HP Growth? So that the highest is 8 and the lowest is 5 for the classes? That would give a lot of HP, but would it create an unwelcome element of stalemate and a "forever game"? The problem I have with the Enormous stats are the outputs of damage, clearly. No matter what, a 30 PA unit, even with a 2-3 WP unit is going to deal upwards to 60-90 damage before Zodiac. And finally the stronger weapons, even if they are only 4-5 WP, and that's not including the skills.  Even a slight alteration would dramatically increase or decrease damage. It just doesn't mesh that well for me.

"Moment's anger can revert to joy,
sadness can be turned to delight.
A nation destroyed cannot be restored,
the dead brought back to life."

Art of War

Beta & Gretchen Forever!!!!
Likes to move it move it.
philsov [Posts: 4599] Logged
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  • [August 31, 2010, 10:46:31 PM]
Re: Mercenaries: Unique Synergy Skillsets for Rad/Ramza!
« Reply #51 on: August 31, 2010, 10:46:31 PM »
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The problem I have with the Enormous stats are the outputs of damage, clearly

Certainly, but HP should be set relative in either case so the same %HP is identical in both cases.  Obviously WP would increase proportionately as well. But, regardless, we'll go with your scheme which certainly has some potential.  If some things start getting absurd we can scale back some stuff and cover up the ripples :).

Just another rebel plotting rebellion.
LastingDawn [Posts: 3404] Logged
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  • [September 04, 2010, 06:45:39 PM]
Re: Mercenaries: Unique Synergy Skillsets for Rad/Ramza!
« Reply #52 on: September 04, 2010, 06:45:39 PM »
Hehe, yes agreed on that. If there was something crucial I missed in this way of things, with you to assist you should be able to find a way to remedy that (I'm not very good at math myself).

"Moment's anger can revert to joy,
sadness can be turned to delight.
A nation destroyed cannot be restored,
the dead brought back to life."

Art of War

Beta & Gretchen Forever!!!!
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