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ALL THE THINGS Official Caretaker.
RavenOfRazgriz [Posts: 3030]
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  • [July 21, 2010, 04:10:24 AM]
Ability Slots Distribution Discussion
« on: July 21, 2010, 04:10:24 AM »
I've been talking with R999 for a while over MSN and we hit a rather odd problem - actually having enough available skill slots to house all generic skills, hero skills, enemy only skills, etc.  This seems like a small issue at first, but considering there are 16 hero teams, over 18 generic classes, around 10 Zodiac Beasts, and probably 16 enemy "hero" units all of which will have at least some number of unique skills, this becomes a big freaking issue.

After some discussion with R999 (where I had to stop him from doing really silly), I've come up with a solution to this problem, and the purpose of this thread is to evaluate, critique, and improve upon said solution to ensure all classes have streamlined ability lists and that we're making optimal use of all the space in the game.  There are roughly 338 editable skill slots, last they were reviewed, for reference.  Each aspect of this post is contained in spoiler tags to prevent needless scrolling.










In short, what's needed are thoughts, critiques, improvements, potential flaws, and in the end consent/approval to this strategy, a variation of it, or an altogether different and better strategy should someone have it so that everyone's skillsets can be made unique, fleshed out, and balanced without breaking the bounds of the game.  So, those others of you out there involved with the gameplay discussion, do critique and offer improvements upon this strategy, and do remember this has nothing to do with the actual skills in each set, so keep those discussion within their own respective threads.
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philsov [Posts: 4598]
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  • [July 21, 2010, 05:34:55 PM]
Re: Ability Slots Distribution Discussion
« Reply #1 on: July 21, 2010, 05:34:55 PM »
I think we can reduce space on enemy hero units -- they can probably get away with a single unique ability and then a borrowed ability or two from the traditional hero units (and with that, gain a few generic abilities as well) -- because they are going to be ?a single fight each, at most, for only a portion of the real heros?

Additionally, I'm of the opinion that all generic classes (that are available for both sexes) should have two total gender-specific abilities - one for male, one for female.  Whether we can expand their skillsets by taking from the enemy hero stash or by reducing their own stash is a matter of numbers, but this is more a case for symmetry and style.  Yes, the female gladiator ability should trump the male gladiator ability, but the male gladaitor ability should be there in the first place.

So..

1) class/weapon-specific
2) Gender A
3) Gender B
4-7) Normal skills.

This means that as a subjob the unit has 5 abilities and as a primary 6.  At 7 slots a pop for 13 jobs and 6 for the 2 single-gender ones, that's 103.  We can also pull a vanilla and remove some action abilities from the fighter types and pump up the mage types, but as far as allotments go I think this is a good number.  If we shave off slots elsewhere and pump each class up with one more on average, then we're looking at 118.

For the heroes, double-heroes with 3 uniques each (and 3 borrowed) and singles with 5 (and with 1 borrowed) seems better, in that it fits the generic scheme of 6 per skillset as a primary.  Strongly support the primary-only nature of heroes' abilities.  

So, while I think they need another (borrowed) skill, 87 is a good number here, leaving us with 148, but thats ok because mewtwo sucks anyways.

As stated above, the allotment towards zodiacs and enemy heroes should be directly proportional to their frequency.  Only fought by a single hero?  Just give them one unique and be done with it.  Fought by the majority?  Sure, give them more.  3 per is a good allotment but some weighted shifting will be occuring (I hope).

Regarding monsters, perhaps we can do what (I believe) Mercenaries planned?  Just have one per family rather than the 3-teired system.  They'd then need... 16 * 4 = 64 ability slots MAX, but really less because of a shared basic attack ability and some of the monster skills can be generic skills, maybe.  Or we can not even mess with monster skill and juggle around with 48 MAX, but less with attack.

Just another rebel plotting rebellion.
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RavenOfRazgriz [Posts: 3030]
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  • [July 21, 2010, 09:52:43 PM]
Re: Ability Slots Distribution Discussion
« Reply #2 on: July 21, 2010, 09:52:43 PM »
Quote from: "philsov"
I think we can reduce space on enemy hero units -- they can probably get away with a single unique ability and then a borrowed ability or two from the traditional hero units (and with that, gain a few generic abilities as well) -- because they are going to be ?a single fight each, at most, for only a portion of the real heros?

Yeah, I figured that, it's something R999 commented over MSN about as well.

I was just very liberal with dispensing those slots to ensure there are enough available.

Quote from: "philsov"
So..

1) class/weapon-specific
2) Gender A
3) Gender B
4-7) Normal skills.

This means that as a subjob the unit has 5 abilities and as a primary 6.  At 7 slots a pop for 13 jobs and 6 for the 2 single-gender ones, that's 103.  We can also pull a vanilla and remove some action abilities from the fighter types and pump up the mage types, but as far as allotments go I think this is a good number.  If we shave off slots elsewhere and pump each class up with one more on average, then we're looking at 118.

This sounds fine to me.  There are likely to be leftover slots because I gave too many slots per enemy hero and likely accounted for too many in general, so there should be space.

Quote from: "philsov"
For the heroes, double-heroes with 3 uniques each (and 3 borrowed) and singles with 5 (and with 1 borrowed) seems better, in that it fits the generic scheme of 6 per skillset as a primary.  Strongly support the primary-only nature of heroes' abilities.

We may be able to get 6 unique primary skills for the lone heroes (again, once actual number crunching on the enemy's side is done, there's likely even more room), but yes, that would be fine by me.

Quote from: "philsov"
So, while I think they need another (borrowed) skill, 87 is a good number here, leaving us with 148, but thats ok because mewtwo sucks anyways

But this cuts us off at Dragonair.  This is a huge problem, because Dragonite is the shit, especially when you can get a Shiny one and name it Godzilla.

Quote from: "philsov"
As stated above, the allotment towards zodiacs and enemy heroes should be directly proportional to their frequency.  Only fought by a single hero?  Just give them one unique and be done with it.  Fought by the majority?  Sure, give them more.  3 per is a good allotment but some weighted shifting will be occuring (I hope).

Of course.  Though R999 wants the Zodiacs to be rather unique, IIRC, so they're likely to get a 3-4 skill minimum allotment regardless of frequency.  Enemy heroes and stuff, yeah.  I know he has plans for things such as an epic enemy Time Mage, who could borrow from Olan's skillset a bit, for example.

Quote from: "philsov"
Regarding monsters, perhaps we can do what (I believe) Mercenaries planned?  Just have one per family rather than the 3-teired system.  They'd then need... 16 * 4 = 64 ability slots MAX, but really less because of a shared basic attack ability and some of the monster skills can be generic skills, maybe.  Or we can not even mess with monster skill and juggle around with 48 MAX, but less with attack.

This sounds perfect to me.  Is there a way to allow them to access their monster skill without having a unit with the Monster Skill ability equipped?  If so an "attack" ability + 3 unique skills per and one representative per breed would be perfect.


The good news seems to be that there will be enough space in the game to fit everyone in, at least.  That's been a huge worry since the beginning, honestly.
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philsov [Posts: 4598]
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  • [July 22, 2010, 05:00:29 PM]
Re: Ability Slots Distribution Discussion
« Reply #3 on: July 22, 2010, 05:00:29 PM »
Quote
Is there a way to allow them to access their monster skill without having a unit with the Monster Skill ability equipped? If so an "attack" ability + 3 unique skills per and one representative per breed would be perfect.

Not without ASM.  Or having them be in not-monster class slots, but I doubt there's enough to go around in that deptartment.  Even innate monster skill doesn't give the carrier access to the monster skill.

Just another rebel plotting rebellion.
LastingDawn [Posts: 3452]
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  • [July 22, 2010, 05:11:29 PM]
Re: Ability Slots Distribution Discussion
« Reply #4 on: July 22, 2010, 05:11:29 PM »
To my knowledge... simply changing the Monster Skill Type to Default *should* do it, that's what I had done for Mercenaries and it seemed to work.

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