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Global MP Regeneration System  (Read 1741 times)
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R999 Logged
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  • [July 19, 2010, 09:15:53 AM]
Global MP Regeneration System
« on: July 19, 2010, 09:15:53 AM »
Overview

Well I have discussed this with Raven over MSN. Due to the stupid nature of the AI we cannot keep some of our MP Breaking skills in any of its iterations, neither are they very smart with MP Healing. To overcome the MP problem, we will be implementing a system where MP is replenished (at around 40-50 MP) every 5 turns or so. With this system in mind, we can fine and optimize the way MP is managed much more effectively. By implementing this system, MP will be managed automatically for both the player and AI. As a result, most if not all of the MP Recovery abilities will be removed from the game.



How it works

An invisible unit (or a custom sprite) will be placed somewhere in every map, with innate Speed 2. Proper flags will be checked to ensure it uses the MP Replenish ability every turn.



Drawbacks

We may not be able to put in an extra sprite for this for every battle due to the sprite limitation of the game. So it might be odd to have a few battles where MP regen is absent.



What are your thoughts on this subject?
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RavenOfRazgriz (Global Moderator) [Posts: 2958] Logged
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  • [July 19, 2010, 09:10:52 PM]
Re: Global MP Regeneration System
« Reply #1 on: July 19, 2010, 09:10:52 PM »
If no battle goes beyond 4 v 4 and whoever makes events involving non-battling characters is smart, you should always be able to include this unit somewhere on the map.

I assume it has Speed 2 Move 0 PA 0 C-Ev 100 HP 999 Always: Don't Move Always: Wall etc, right?

If so, this is fine with me, as I said before. The skills that heal MP while doing other things (Chakra) should remain untouched, only removing the skills that purely heal MP and aren't Move-MP UP.  

I do like this if only for the fact it makes the AI less stupid in longer fights, though.

It also makes IA more unique in how its battle mechanics work, which is a plus.
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philsov [Posts: 4599] Logged
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  • [July 20, 2010, 05:18:40 PM]
Re: Global MP Regeneration System
« Reply #2 on: July 20, 2010, 05:18:40 PM »
We'd have to tweak MP costs to compensate, as some of the lower magics and abilities now become completely spammable -- unless this is the intent.  It does however perk up the AI, especially in longer fights, so I'm all for it.  I'm tempted to even gut chakra, or simply make it an HP-only ability.

Just another rebel plotting rebellion.
R999 Logged
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  • [July 20, 2010, 07:58:45 PM]
Re: Global MP Regeneration System
« Reply #3 on: July 20, 2010, 07:58:45 PM »
^Yeah adjusting the MP costs of skills at a global scale is inevitable, but it is manageable. Low MP costs skills would cost more MP, until at which point where they are no longer as 'spammy'. By removing MP healing abilities, Absorb MP Used, Half of MP and Move MP Up, and high initial MP gear would be the only way to control MP pools, all of which can be manually setup for the AI.
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RavenOfRazgriz (Global Moderator) [Posts: 2958] Logged
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  • [July 20, 2010, 09:41:49 PM]
Re: Global MP Regeneration System
« Reply #4 on: July 20, 2010, 09:41:49 PM »
Quote from: "R999"
^Yeah adjusting the MP costs of skills at a global scale is inevitable, but it is manageable. Low MP costs skills would cost more MP, until at which point where they are no longer as 'spammy'. By removing MP healing abilities, Absorb MP Used, Half of MP and Move MP Up, and high initial MP gear would be the only way to control MP pools, all of which can be manually setup for the AI.

Pretty much.

The MP system we have now should be mostly set, it's just raising the costs of individual skills in relation to how much MP is regenerated and how often.
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RavenOfRazgriz (Global Moderator) [Posts: 2958] Logged
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  • [July 21, 2010, 11:33:51 PM]
Re: Global MP Regeneration System
« Reply #5 on: July 21, 2010, 11:33:51 PM »
Posted the correct MP scaling in the generic jobs section.

Looking over those and equipment, I think 40 MP per turn would be the best number.  Undedicated Tier 1MP score units would get a full regen and Tier 2s close to it, though this is balanced by how obtuse their ceiling MP scores are. Other classes / more MP-oriented units, meanwhile, get a noteworthy boost that combines well with their higher base MPs and potentially Half of MP or Move-MP UP, allowing them to crank out higher-tier spells more consistently.  We may need to up the max MP cost on skills to 80 or so to avoid MP regen + Half of MP + Move-MP UP making stuff totally free forever... or remove Half of MP from all non-Hero units, since this is essentially Half of MP as long as your base MP can handle a casting or two.

We can figure that bit out later if we want.
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philsov [Posts: 4599] Logged
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  • [July 22, 2010, 02:32:12 PM]
Re: Global MP Regeneration System
« Reply #6 on: July 22, 2010, 02:32:12 PM »
having it be every turn over every 4-ish is a much, much better idea.  

As is the t1 full replenishment.

t1 = spammable
t2 = almost spammable
t3 = possibly eclipsed by t4 in the eyes of the AI, might see one use before they bottom out and go back to a t1/t2 cycle?
t4 = maybe once or twice

correct? >_>

though I do think under the current system half MP should be restricted to hero and enemy-only.  Move MP-Up should be a free-for-all ability though, based on some napkin math.

Just another rebel plotting rebellion.
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RavenOfRazgriz (Global Moderator) [Posts: 2958] Logged
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  • [July 22, 2010, 10:13:01 PM]
Re: Global MP Regeneration System
« Reply #7 on: July 22, 2010, 10:13:01 PM »
Quote from: "philsov"
having it be every turn over every 4-ish is a much, much better idea.  

As is the t1 full replenishment.

t1 = spammable
t2 = almost spammable
t3 = possibly eclipsed by t4 in the eyes of the AI, might see one use before they bottom out and go back to a t1/t2 cycle?
t4 = maybe once or twice

correct? >_>

I'm not sure if you misinterpreted something, left words out, or what, but I have no clue what you're actually suggesting here.

Quote from: "philsov"
though I do think under the current system half MP should be restricted to hero and enemy-only.  Move MP-Up should be a free-for-all ability though, based on some napkin math.

All the Half of MP / Move-MP UP math is actually already done.  You've no need to worry about napkin math.   MP scores can never break 200, meaning the most Move-MP UP can grant is 19 and skills that might become a problem if spammed via Move-MP UP + Half of MP + full MP gear (which is maybe, 1-2?) usually have a cost that beats 19 when halved.
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philsov [Posts: 4599] Logged
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  • [July 23, 2010, 02:10:56 PM]
Re: Global MP Regeneration System
« Reply #8 on: July 23, 2010, 02:10:56 PM »
Quote
I'm not sure if you misinterpreted something, left words out, or what, but I have no clue what you're actually suggesting here.

More self-clarification than suggestion, but if all that's taken care of -- great.

Just another rebel plotting rebellion.
Zozma [Posts: 4600] Logged
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  • [July 23, 2010, 10:31:45 PM]
Re: Global MP Regeneration System
« Reply #9 on: July 23, 2010, 10:31:45 PM »
cant you assign the crystal sprite to this particular unit? eh well i wouldnt know how to do that but it would solve the sprite limit thing

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RavenOfRazgriz (Global Moderator) [Posts: 2958] Logged
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  • [July 24, 2010, 01:01:34 AM]
Re: Global MP Regeneration System
« Reply #10 on: July 24, 2010, 01:01:34 AM »
I'm starting to think it might be better off to have the MP regeneration happen more often but in smaller doses... say, 5 MP per regen but have the unit with lowest tier Speed or tier -1 speed so it happens once per round.

This would allow mages to benefit from it more than non-mages and be overall less abusable, I think.
R999 Logged
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  • [July 24, 2010, 01:03:56 AM]
Re: Global MP Regeneration System
« Reply #11 on: July 24, 2010, 01:03:56 AM »
More Frequent Intervals
I am somewhat against that personally, it maybe annoying to watch that effect being spammed too often.
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RavenOfRazgriz (Global Moderator) [Posts: 2958] Logged
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  • [July 24, 2010, 09:55:12 AM]
Re: Global MP Regeneration System
« Reply #12 on: July 24, 2010, 09:55:12 AM »
Quote from: "R999"
More Frequent Intervals
I am somewhat against that personally, it maybe annoying to watch that effect being spammed too often.

Make the animation for the skill a basic melee or something that takes almost no time to execute, problem solved.

The unit regenerating MP doesn't need to use the Angel Song animation, after all.

E: Or, if possible, give the regeneration no animation at all.  The player doesn't really need an animation cue for regaining 5 MP at fairly consistent intervals.
R999 Logged
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  • [July 24, 2010, 10:13:43 AM]
Re: Global MP Regeneration System
« Reply #13 on: July 24, 2010, 10:13:43 AM »
The thing is, the camera will center on that unit whenever her turn comes up... if no animation is playing it might seem kind of weird. Though, I am not sure what is the problem with Speed-2 regen?


Our new friend may have a new solution for us: regen MP upon AT.
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RavenOfRazgriz (Global Moderator) [Posts: 2958] Logged
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  • [July 24, 2010, 08:52:32 PM]
Re: Global MP Regeneration System
« Reply #14 on: July 24, 2010, 08:52:32 PM »
Quote from: "R999"
The thing is, the camera will center on that unit whenever her turn comes up... if no animation is playing it might seem kind of weird. Though, I am not sure what is the problem with Speed-2 regen?

Nah.  Just have the ability name "MP Regen Cycle" appear each time it triggers and it'll be fine.

The problem with slow, huge regens is that players can exploit them via CT manipulation.  (Aka, you know when you're getting 50 MP back, so bomb it out just before the regen cycle so the spell is free, etc.)  With small, quick regens, they can't be exploited, and the generally slower magic classes that actually need the MP regeneration will benefit more from it than speedy ones such as Rogue, lowering the quality gap between slower and faster units a bit.

Quote from: "R999"
Our new friend may have a new solution for us: regen MP upon AT.

That works too.  5 MP upon AT is what FFTA does, and that would fit what we're doing here perfectly... since we're in a sense borrowing a few of FFTA's mechanics and making them not utter garbage since the non-garbage FFT AI plays rather nicely with them.
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  • [August 09, 2010, 09:34:09 PM]
scatttman [Posts: 163] Logged
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  • [August 10, 2010, 11:30:25 AM]
Re: Global MP Regeneration System
« Reply #16 on: August 10, 2010, 11:30:25 AM »
i thin the AI will spend all his mp in the first oportunity i mean if the game restores 40 mp and the AI have 2 spells one who cost 40 and other who cost 50 just an example the AI will always cast the spell who cost 40 idk if u understand my point
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Samuraiblackbelt [Posts: 932] Logged
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  • [August 11, 2010, 05:16:40 AM]
Re: Global MP Regeneration System
« Reply #17 on: August 11, 2010, 05:16:40 AM »
the AI won't wait for enough MP to be gained so he can use the lower level spells, so if you have fire and fire four and you're out of MP, the AI will cast fire every time it gets the MP and not wait for the MP to cast fire 4.

meaning, for the AI's sake, restoring a lot of MP every once in a while would be better than restoring a little a lot of the time.

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scatttman [Posts: 163] Logged
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  • [August 11, 2010, 11:28:01 PM]
Re: Global MP Regeneration System
« Reply #18 on: August 11, 2010, 11:28:01 PM »
exactly was i try to say
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philsov [Posts: 4599] Logged
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  • [August 12, 2010, 09:48:28 PM]
Re: Global MP Regeneration System
« Reply #19 on: August 12, 2010, 09:48:28 PM »
Quote
Idea: hack regen to restore MP.

If we're going the hacking route, I think we're better off just giving everyone Move MP Up and then adjusting how much it increments.  There's a lot less ripples that way.  Of course, this then ties mp regen to speed (and haste/slow) rather than an absolute timer system.

But anyways, the posts past that echo what I was somewhat saying earlier -- teir one should be spammable to allow for eventual regen to allow t2 spells to be cast.  You can expect t4 and t3 spells to be rarely cast, unless t1/t2 are circumstantial spells (raise, etc) that might not be cast every single turn.

Just another rebel plotting rebellion.
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