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FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread  (Read 237351 times)
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FFMaster [Posts: 2499]
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  • [October 11, 2014, 04:47:46 AM]
Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
« Reply #1540 on: October 11, 2014, 04:47:46 AM »
No. I'll explain all this in detail.

First, the trivial scenario. If a Mime uses an attack or ability normally just like how any other unit does, it will use the equipped items as normal. Without any Equip abilities, this will be a punch. Note that Mime does not have innate Martial Arts anymore, and the attack will be very weak.

If a Mime mimics an attack, the left and right hand equipment changes to what the original user was holding. For example, if a Paladin uses Grand Cross with an Excalibur, the Mime will also mimic Grand Cross with an Excalibur. Once the mimic ends, the Mime will be given back the original equipment he had. If a shield was equipped, it will be put back on the correct hand.

HOWEVER, the changed equipment will not grant the innates from the new equipment. In the above scenario, the temporary Excalibur will not grant the user Strengthen: Holy. This means that if both units had the exact same Brave and PA, the original user will do more damage, due to Strengthen: Holy unless the Mime also has Strengthen: Holy from another source (for example, 108 Gems). Innates include bonus PA, MA, Speed, Immunities, Weaknesses, Resists and Strengthens as well as status effects. Basically, anything in the Attributes tab.

CONVERSELY, any innates that the Mime has gained from the equipment in his hands will not be lost. For example, the bonus PA from Genji Shield will not be lost during a Mimic, or the MA bonus from Rune Blade.

Be careful how you build your Mimes. A Mime copying a Mace of Zeus Grand Cross will not be able to absorb it unless there is Absorb: Lightning already on the unit somewhere. If in doubt, use skills that won't hit self, like Summons or Southern Cross.

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Shintroy [Posts: 475]
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  • [October 11, 2014, 06:48:01 AM]
Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
« Reply #1541 on: October 11, 2014, 06:48:01 AM »
Had a PA boosted Mime with a Save the Queen equipped. It got stuck using a harp for several turns because everyone else was either sleeping or paralyzed. That's not supposed to happen is it? So far whenever he copies a normal attack it gets stuck with someone elses weapon never to use his own.


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FFMaster [Posts: 2499]
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  • [October 11, 2014, 12:55:15 PM]
Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
« Reply #1542 on: October 11, 2014, 12:55:15 PM »
Yeah, that's a bug. Was there anyone using said Harp? Also, can you upload the generated memory card so I can test?

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Shintroy [Posts: 475]
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  • [October 15, 2014, 08:34:34 PM]
Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
« Reply #1543 on: October 15, 2014, 08:34:34 PM »
Bow Gun's Armor break proc doesn't work.  Doesn't seem to have a proc actually.

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The Damned [Posts: 2168]
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  • [October 15, 2014, 10:30:38 PM]
Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
« Reply #1544 on: October 15, 2014, 10:30:38 PM »
(Bow Gun's proc hasn't ever worked for some reason. It definitely has Armor Break as its proc in the patch, at least in 138d, and it wasn't working back then. No one knows why for sure or, at least, no one has said anything. Personally, I think it's for the better. Armor Break working on that thing would probably make it overpowered.)


Oh, good. You're back, FFMaster. As glad as I am to see ARENA got an update while I'm gone, I'm even more glad just to see you're okay. Given I almost always assume the worst, it's good to know that you're, well, still alive, especially given you were gone for even longer than I was even counting the brief hiatus I just took.

In fact, given how long you were gone, I actually took it upon myself to try to implement all of the huge amount of 1.39 changes that people were suggesting. Aside from Druid/Scholar, which I didn't really decide on mostly because I wasn't sure what you had decided upon before you disappeared, everything has been done in that patch for a month; I was leaning towards Druid though for the record just because Scholar's stats are currently Wizard+ (still). As such, even with the different changes in the current version of 1.39, I can send you that version of the patch and the two Notepad documents related to it should you so want given it would be really tedious to upgrade otherwise. It's up to you (and anyone else who's interested, I guess). I'd need a day or two (or three) to clean up things in said documents though.

(While they may no longer be helpful, they may at least be useful for getting ideas when it comes to "fixing" Songs and especially Dances since I had quite a bit of inspiration there. I somewhat fear that I may have made that version of Witch Hunt a bit overpowered though.)


As for the current version of 1.39, I'll wait to comment in-depth until I look into things more carefully and probably make a team that actually works in 1.39. For the most part, the changes look positive, especially with regards to Accessories, Undead revival, Mimes and Phoenix Blade. Similarly, I can understand you not wanting to implement the tidal wave of changes that the aggregate 1.39 changes were asking for. I mean, gods, it was so tedious just implementing the stuff that suggested even before "having" to come up with some of my own solutions and trying to balance the suggestions that were either conflicting or just flat-out got no discussion.

That said, despite all the other decisions for the actual 1.39, I'm really not keen on Quickening still being around, especially with the way that the new Phoenix Blade is balanced. Like, really not keen. Not keen, totally so.

No amount of JP is going to be enough to be able to properly balance Quickening, even if you made it cost 2500-2750 JP. As it is, it's just going to continue to basically be the only skill that Thieves really use outside of maybe Steal: Heart and Steal: Accessory even with the nerf to Cursed Ring and the previously 2H-compatible Knives. That kind of undermines, among other things, the needed change to Bad Luck/Tough Luck as well as continues to make the current versions of Cheer Song, Slow Dance, Speed Ruin and even, to some degree, Speed Save, Chrono Trigger and Last Song & Last Dance kind of suck.

Please, please put Quickening out of our misery finally.

(Yes, I show you I'm glad to know you're okay by immediately nagging you. I'm tactful and caring like that.)

Well, I disagree in part on the triangle hat receiving halving of those elements. I think that most people likely choose Thief Hat due to the +1 Speed, not the elemental halving. Due to that, I don't think many teams would use a hat that gives lower HP and halves those particular elements. The spells and abilities that use those elements aren't that popular or plentiful. If anything, I would add 20 HP and swap the White Robe/Triangle Hat elements (possibly with immunity to Berserk or Poison added to the White Robe). This would make them both viable choices since the Triangle Hat would half the spell gun damage (and be more accessible to more classes) while the Robe would give a good immunity and half three elements that aren't widely used. I realize Earth is a bit more used than Water and Wind, but Earth also has Float that can null that element.

That's just my opinion though.

I noted this before I left and, though it's a moot point now that FFMaster is back, I feel like it deserves a response, especially given that it was a well thought-out opinion:


"Sorrow cannot be abolished. It is meaningless to try." - FFX's Yunalesca

"Good and evil are relative, but being a dick cannot be allowed." - Oglaf's Thaumaturge in "The Abyss"

"Well, see, the real magic isn't believing in yourself. The real magic is manipulating people by telling them to believe in themselves. The more you believe, the less you check facts."  - Oglaf's Vanka in "Conviction"
"..." - Gogo
Shintroy [Posts: 475]
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  • [October 15, 2014, 10:48:02 PM]
Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
« Reply #1545 on: October 15, 2014, 10:48:02 PM »
What's the point in keeping bowgun in the game if it has no use? Having armor break isn't overpowered in the slightest, but maybe the percentage could be lowered to 33%. The proc can still be blocked right? Why not go the long bow route and give it more range and move? Maybe a tactical crossbow. Same stats, but move, jump, and 5 more W-Ev.

Gastrophetes needs a WP or range buff. It's a 2 handed crossbow that can do less damage than a one hander with a genji shield. Giving it 5 range or an additional 1-2 WP seems fair when you look at the damage.

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The Damned [Posts: 2168]
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  • [October 15, 2014, 11:40:53 PM]
Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
« Reply #1546 on: October 15, 2014, 11:40:53 PM »
You've have to ask FFMaster that, as I couldn't tell you and don't want to put words in his mouth. I suspect he was just trying to change as little as possible while still changing enough so the update had a significant impact on most of the actual problems with 1.38, especially since he came back midway through the tidal wave of suggestions for 1.39 and felt understandably lost. Some things are obviously still works in progress on that front, especially given I just kvetched about Quickening still existing when it seemed pretty much everyone but Raven agreed it should die in a fire.

As for Bow Gun's Armor Break, yes, it could still be "blocked" if you had Maintenance or have significant physical evasion that wasn't disabled by a status and the unit didn't firing upon you didn't have Concentrate. I still think it would be overpowered, however, since you'd still take double damage in the former case despite using an RSM that sees basically no use anyway because of stuff like that. In the latter case there's little reason to not use Concentrate with Bow Gun given free Armor Break followed by subsequent double-hits from Range 4 is really good.

I mean, as it is, Shieldrender is pretty damn good now that we know that actually works even though it has the lowest WP of all Swords and doesn't lower the HP any unit it strikes--it just lowers their evasion and potential to absorb anything. Something that breaks armor, which unlike Shields, literally every unit wears, including Mime now, would only be guaranteed to be better even if you mandated half of every time to wear Projectile Guard.

There's also the issue of Crossbows in general being among the most "meh" class of weapons right between having to compete with Guns & Longbows on Archer and then a plethora of other options on Squire, which are both losing battles really. For the longest time, only Hunting Bow--especially OG ARENA Hunting Bow with its 100% Don't Move chance--and Gastrophetes have ever really been worth using and even the latter is kinda dubious as it tends to only get used on Monks due to their PA; I suppose one could also argue that Poison Bow is worth using even though a bunch of things, including Hawk's Eye, add Poison. So letting Bow Gun keep an Armor Break proc that's functioning would only make that worse ironically.

That said, I'd be willing to try it out if it did work, especially if FFMaster used that hack that caused equipment breaks to not function as attacks on units without that piece of equipment. Shieldrender would need a boost though then and even then I still think free Armor Break would probably end in tears.

When I unofficially "took over" for FFMaster as far as trying to get together a patch for 1.39 in his absence, I just "suggested" it be changed to something else entirely while working on it:


Bow-Gun --> Auto-Crossbow: 8 WP, 0% W-EV, 4 Range, +2 Speed.


Shrug. You could probably slightly increase the range to 5 and be fine.
 
****

As far as Gastrophetes goes, boosting its WP even more just seems like asking for people to abuse it with Southern Cross and do basically nothing else. Granted, with Phoenix Blade now existent as a Fire elemental weapon, I suppose that would be less of a problem than it would have been before but it still seems...non-optimal to me. Among the changes generally agreed upon, like Lancers getting Robes back despite their pitiful MA, a new version of Gastrophetes was one of them:


Gastrophetes: 14 WP, 0 W-EV, 4 Range, Force Two-Hands, 100% Random Add: Poison, Blind, Silence, Don't Move.


I'm not sure what happened there and I'm still honestly not sure how I feel about it, but it at least seems like an improvement to the current condition of Gastrophetes for the reasons you specify among others.

"Sorrow cannot be abolished. It is meaningless to try." - FFX's Yunalesca

"Good and evil are relative, but being a dick cannot be allowed." - Oglaf's Thaumaturge in "The Abyss"

"Well, see, the real magic isn't believing in yourself. The real magic is manipulating people by telling them to believe in themselves. The more you believe, the less you check facts."  - Oglaf's Vanka in "Conviction"
silentkaster [Posts: 542]
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  • [October 16, 2014, 12:51:21 AM]
Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
« Reply #1547 on: October 16, 2014, 12:51:21 AM »
Thanks to The Damned for the thoughtful response!

I am pretty sure Bow Gun's proc worked but there was no animation. I'm not sure which ones, but see some of Barren's videos featuring teams with the Bow Gun from 1.38. Also, even though the proc was 50%, I think that the chance to evade the Armor Break still existed. So even if 50% did proc, the unit still had a chance to avoid the armor break. At least, that's how I think it works.

Anyway, if you ask me, I think that the most "meh" weapons are actually the cloths. With only "initial" Protect, Shell and Reflect on a class that is generally a very offensive class, and with no 2H or 2S abilities (I think that 2S would be OP though given two range), I think that these are easily passed up for Swords and Daggers on the Dancer. With "Always" Protect Shell or Reflect or at least the ability to use 2H, I think that these would be a bit more balanced. But that's just me.

I personally think Gastrafitis should also be reworked, especially if keeping it two hands. I agree with you, The Damned, on nerfing the WP a bit and adding a proc, but I'm not sure this would necessarily make it a good choice over the other bows, especially considering the procs you mentioned can all be procced by the other crossbows. In general, if you're using a crossbow, the strategy would be to proc a certain status given that other weapons (namely guns and longbows) can do more damage with higher accuracy, better procs (consider proccing Stop and DA vs. Poison and DM) or longer range. So the other crossbows, despite a somewhat lower WP would be more than made up for in many cases by bringing a shield and having a certain status proc (vs. a random status) a high percentage of the time. Therefore, my idea would be for the Gastrafitis to proc "Slow" 50% of the time.

I appreciate your response to my thoughts about the hats/robes. I hear you on which robe should be given Immune: Berserk...yeah Silk Robe would probably be the best choice. Perhaps a slight HP nerf and adding that would be a good idea, but just my opinion, especially given Berserk is so powerful on Mages.

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The Damned [Posts: 2168]
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  • [October 16, 2014, 01:42:57 AM]
Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
« Reply #1548 on: October 16, 2014, 01:42:57 AM »
Sensible arguments all, though for the record I think it was Gaignun himself came up with the idea for Gastrophetes and people just tended to collectively agree with it.

That said, I had and still do have much the same misgivings about it for the reasons you point out even though I could see why Gaignun settled on that idea, which is why I agreed with it. A Gastrophetes that added Slow would be definite improvement that I think would still be fair though. 50% may be a bit high though, especially when it's not hampered by as much as Heaven's Cloud the Katana is and has more range, no element and might get to keep more WP on top of that. Still, that's definitely a valid option.

As far as Bow Gun working "in secret", hmmm...now that you mention it, I do vaguely recall Barren mentioning something like that. I don't think I ever got around to checking things out, especially given that I was gone for a large part of the end of 1.38. I suppose, given the graphical glitches that Crossbows, Longbows and probably Guns have with stuff that uses the Weapon Strike animation that isn't a regular attack, it's entirely possible that's making the subsequent Armor Break invisible. It would need some testing though to verify that's what actually occurring, especially since no one is really using it, partly because others and I have been telling people it doesn't work. It's sort of what happened with Repel Knife when I was mistaken about that and when people thought Shieldrender wasn't working.

Even if Armor Break is working as it should on Bow Gun though, all that does is introduce another set of problems, at least to me.

As far as the most lackluster weapon group goes, I'd definitely agree that Cloths are the most lackluster. Crossbows have been generally been rather lackluster for a while as well for various reasons. I'd say they're the third most lackluster after Staves, even with all the problems half of Spears have been having, and may be even second now that Staves finally got some type of boost even though I think you do even more with Staves. Cloths' exclusivity doesn't help, especially there are accessories that utterly outclass their benefits unlike with Harps, which were all decent already but outclassed by Bloody Strings; Lamia Harp seems to have gotten a boost as it is even despite that, which also helps out Madlemgen incidentally.

The problem is that even knowing they're bad doesn't help fix, much less get to agree upon how to fix them unfortunately. Said problem is only furthered by it being an admittedly low priority between the exclusivity, the other big problem with Dancers (read: their skill set) and Dancers already have other extremely good options weapon-wise as you pointed out. I'm not really sure what to do about Cloths either, though I'll be honest and say that I don't think turning the statuses they have now into "Always" would help all that much.

Finally, so noted about Silk Robe.

"Sorrow cannot be abolished. It is meaningless to try." - FFX's Yunalesca

"Good and evil are relative, but being a dick cannot be allowed." - Oglaf's Thaumaturge in "The Abyss"

"Well, see, the real magic isn't believing in yourself. The real magic is manipulating people by telling them to believe in themselves. The more you believe, the less you check facts."  - Oglaf's Vanka in "Conviction"
Bad code, beware! The NOPs are coming to eat you!
formerdeathcorps [Posts: 1322]
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  • [October 16, 2014, 04:00:04 AM]
Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
« Reply #1549 on: October 16, 2014, 04:00:04 AM »
I think crossbows are fine.  Now that Ultimus bow has been nerfed, I think gastrofitis will see more use once the metagame stabilizes.  The only slight problems I currently see are long bows:

A) Atheist Bow can still be range boosted by terrain.  Its effect should be swapped with Bow Gun.  In other words, change Atheist Bow to Heavy Shot: 12 WP, 5 Range, 50% Armor Break, 10 W-EV and Bow Gun to 8 WP, 4 Range, 100% Innocent or 10 WP, 4 Range, 50% Innocent (both at 0 W-EV).
B) Silver Bow is too strong.  It should be 13 WP, 5 Range, +2 MA, everything else stays the same.
C) Drop the MA boosts on Ice and Lightning Bows.

Otherwise, the flexibility of the crossbows (ability to use shields, native PA * WP so there's no need to have a ninja subclass) should easily compensate for the extra WP and range on longbows.  Southern cross and kagesougi won't be used consistently even on gastrofitis because the regular attack outranges southern cross and the AI cannot tell the difference between kagesougi and a normal attack (because it doesn't see the status effects being added) and thus will use the two interchangeably.

Damned, turning the veils to "Always" would likely break the game.  Wiz used it to create unstoppable dancers a while back.  Instead, I suggest:
Persia: 12 WP, 2 Range, 10 W-EV, Init: Haste
Cashmere: 12 WP, 2 Range, 10 W-EV, Init: Prot/Shell
Ryozan: 12 WP, 2 Range, 10 W-EV, Init: Reflect

I suspect Phoenix Blade is currently too good.  It could stand to lose all the W-EV or the fire elemental, but I want to see the metagame pan out first.

Thief's skillset simply needs an overhaul because like you noticed, there's really only two useful skills (SH and Quickening).
A) Heretic belongs on ninja.  And honestly, I'd rather it be (PA + 70)% Innocent, 3 Range / 3 Vert so it'd be an actual threat.  Remove Solution from mediator.
B) Bad Luck is awful now.  It currently is worth only 2 CT / 5 MP.  The point of it, like the decap axe or the climhazzard dagger, is to threaten even tanks with disaster.  The chances may not be high, but they're not supposed to be easy to avoid.  If you really wish to keep the CT / MP costs, then delete kagesougi from ninja and make Bad Luck 100% Random: DM, DA, Stop, Blind, Silence.
C) Spellbreaker should be the magical version of Kagesougi.  In other words, weapon range / elemental / 50% RemoveBuffs / 5 MP.  I suspect being MA-based (and not adding DA) would make it more balanced than Kagesougi.
D) Quickening is balanced by AI behavior.  It will only use quickening if your character has no other MP dependent skill.  Thus, a quickening thief cannot use spellbreaker, heretic, bad luck, or any of the ruins and cannot be used on a mage.
E) If Thief really needs to be nerfed (I doubt it), then we can give Steal Heart an MP cost so Quickening thieves can't use it.
F) Steal Accessory and Speed Ruin are fine.
G) Magic Ruin is not an efficient spell.  Steal Heart and HEretic are both better ways to interrupt spells.  Even if the effect connects, the MP reduction often isn't enough to stop the target from using her spell.  Thus, I suggest (assuming we delete Kagesougi) that Magic Ruin be changed to Master RUin:
[PA/2] * WP to HP
[PA/2] * WP to MP
Weapon Elemental, P-EVable
12 MP
1 Range, 3 Vert
Off a dedicated physical attacker, the MP damage will be significant enough to cancel spells while also dealing damage.  The low range keeps it balanced.  Of course, the Monster Dictionary now needs a new proc.  Maybe 50% bizen boat?
H) Power and Mind Ruin I have no idea how to fix.

As for Tornado / Quake, 3 CT and being reflectable should suffice.

If the Asura change proves popular, can we have other underused draw outs like muramasa and heaven's cloud be PA * 9 and 7, respectively?
« Last Edit: October 16, 2014, 06:45:56 AM by formerdeathcorps »
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The dogmas of every era are nothing but the fantasies of those in power; their dreams are our waking nightmares.
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Shintroy [Posts: 475]
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  • [October 16, 2014, 05:02:52 AM]
Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
« Reply #1550 on: October 16, 2014, 05:02:52 AM »
Not a fan of random stat procs on a weapon. It's always a problem when RNG conveniently adds the perfect status for the situation. Kagesougi should never be on a weapon. For the Gastrophetes, I could see it being the Gold Staff or Chaos Blade of crossbows. It could have the exact same stats, but with the 100% dispel effect. It's the most fitting effect for the weapon historically.

Gastrophetes: 16 WP, 0 W-EV, 5 Range, Force Two-Hands
Gastrophetes: 16 WP, 0 W-EV, 4 Range, Force Two-Hands, 100% Cancel on hit: All positive statii


For Bowgun in 139 exclusively, I've tested to see if it worked using 8 female units with worst compat and tanking gear. 20 something attacks in and everyone was still wearing armor. So it's broken in the literal sense at the moment.
I don't agree with your auto crossbow suggestion in the slightest either. Seems like an easy way to benefit from 25% Haste. Archer has a default speed of 9, Paired with +3 from your Auto Crossbow, and Zephyr Shield and we're looking at an easy 12 speed from hand equipment alone. +3 Speed with Haste. You could even get 15 speed with Secret Clothes, Thief Hat, and Sprint shoes. On anything but a cramped map like the pub, and you could have a 16 speed unit with +4 from haste from a song or quickening. That's a bit ridiculous having 20 speed in the first turn. Ridiculous.

For Bowgun, I do agree on it being reworked and renamed. I recommended having a tactical-like crossbow with +move and jump in a previous post. When I read "Auto Crossbow" I think of rapid fire. When I think rapid fire I think of the dual cutters.  Giving BowGun or "Auto Crossbow" the old 1.3 proc sounds a lot less harmful than a 50% armor break since that's permanent damage, and an extra attack. Suggestions

Bow-Gun --> Auto-Crossbow: 7-8 WP, 0% W-EV, 4 Range 50% Chance of Extra Attack

Bow-Gun --> Scout's Crossbow: 8 WP, 0% W-EV, 4 Range +1 Move, + 1 Jump
Bow-Gun --> Scout's Crossbow: 8 WP, 0% W-EV, 5 Range +1 Move, + 1 Jump



Clothes definitely the worst melee weapon class at the moment. Not only because of the horrible stats that can be dispelled, but because Dancers can use superior weapons.

Persia: 12 WP, 10 W-EV, 2 Range Initial: Protect
Cashmere 12 WP, 10 W-EV, 2 Range Initial: Shell
Ryozan Cloth 12 WP, 10 W-EV, 2 Range Initial: Reflect

To

Persia: 12 WP, 10 W-EV, 2 Range, 50% Chance of Knockback
Cashmere 10 WP, 40 W-EV, 2 Range
Cashmere 12 WP, 10 W-EV, 2 Range, 50% Cancel Performing/Casting
Ryozan Cloth 12 WP, 10 W-EV, 2 Range Initial: Haste
(Wouldn't Hurt to give a cloth speed and haste since it's 2hand.

I watched Iron Monkey recently after many years and thought about giving a cloth 3 range. Then I realized giving it knockback would be just as good or even more powerful. Heck 100% Knockback wouldn't hurt. [joke]Maybe give cloth a boost from Martial Arts?[/joke]

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formerdeathcorps [Posts: 1322]
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  • [October 16, 2014, 05:46:24 AM]
Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
« Reply #1551 on: October 16, 2014, 05:46:24 AM »
1) Armor break has a ~65% chance to land on max PA setup for Bow Gun before considering target evasion (average around 20% or so).  Thus, we're looking at 52% chance to break armor on top of a 50% proc rate or a total of around 25% armor break.
2) Damage to maxHP does not affect currentHP.
3) Once the target's armor is broken, due to a bug in my ASM (that FFM doesn't want to fix), consecutive triggers of armor break WILL DO NOTHING.

Honestly, to make the Bow Gun proc "second hit" rather than armor break actually makes it stronger because an extra hit > armor break in terms of damage.

As for your cloth suggestions, Init: Haste is arguably no better than Init: Reflect.  The former favors more offensive teams, the latter more defensive ones.  Init: Haste should exist on its own cloth (rather than steal the slot from Ryozan).
50% Cancel Perform / Cast is not a good idea for a dancer exclusive weapon.  For that weapon to be effective, you must midcharge with it, but midcharging means either a really fast dancer (10 / 11 speed + haste) or a dancer that goes last in your formation order (meaning her dances become suboptimal because she's not casting witch hunt or polka polka before enemy 8 SPD units get their turns).
WEV is typically bad on dancers because while performing, they have no evasion.
As for 50% Knockback, it may create glitches where characters are knocked off the map's boundaries, freezing the game.  It's possible to code without more ASM, but it requires some trickery.
« Last Edit: October 16, 2014, 06:43:57 AM by formerdeathcorps »
The destruction of the will is the rape of the mind.
The dogmas of every era are nothing but the fantasies of those in power; their dreams are our waking nightmares.
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The Damned [Posts: 2168]
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  • [October 17, 2014, 02:24:07 AM]
Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
« Reply #1552 on: October 17, 2014, 02:24:07 AM »
(Good to see you back as well, formerdeathcorps. If working Armor Break on Bow Gun indeed wouldn't offer up extra attacks after armor is broken, then I would probably be fine with it.)

I pretty much agree with all your arguments, formerdeathcorps, save for Quickening being balanced--we'll probably never agree on that--by the A.I. current ignorance and that turning the Veils/Cloths back to Always would break the game given everything has changed. Still, in the latter instance, we at least agree that turning them to Always isn't a good idea for one reason or another and I find your suggestions of Initial: Buff changes a good enough improvement that they might actually see use again.

For the record, I too am rather worried about Atheist Bow and the newer Phoenix Blade, even if it's definitely an improvement over the old Phoenix Blade. Still, I find that all the more reason to test them out, so we'll see how they pan out I suppose.

I must admit, however, that I'm surprised you edited your post to say Speed Ruin is fine now. Either way, it definitely is the most--well, only--usable Ruin unfortunately.


For Bowgun in 139 exclusively, I've tested to see if it worked using 8 female units with worst compat and tanking gear. 20 something attacks in and everyone was still wearing armor. So it's broken in the literal sense at the moment.

You should probably test it (a lot) more times than just around 20, but, yeah, it's probably not working, so I'm going to say don't bother doing that unless you want to absolutely be sure it doesn't work.

I don't agree with your auto crossbow suggestion in the slightest either. Seems like an easy way to benefit from 25% Haste. Archer has a default speed of 9, Paired with +3 from your Auto Crossbow, and Zephyr Shield and we're looking at an easy 12 speed from hand equipment alone. +3 Speed with Haste. You could even get 15 speed with Secret Clothes, Thief Hat, and Sprint shoes. On anything but a cramped map like the pub, and you could have a 16 speed unit with +4 from haste from a song or quickening. That's a bit ridiculous having 20 speed in the first turn. Ridiculous.

Noted. I didn't say I was exactly a fan of my own suggestion. Just that it was something I came up with that I thought was actually an improvement to a version of Bow Gun that currently isn't even working.

That said, I felt it was "fair" since you can already do the exact same thing if you give a Thief all of the equipment you said and a Javelin or, previously, two Hidden Knives with generally more power behind that speed to boot. I don't disagree that it isn't "ridiculous", in part due to, you know, Quickening, but it's hardly new.

The other things have mostly already been answered by formerdeathcorps, but I'll say that I do like the idea of Scout's Crossbow and think it would be fine with Range 5 given its low power.

P.S. For the record, I vaguely remember "Extra Attacks" not working properly on Crossbows either, though I can't remember why I "know" that. I wouldn't be surprised if it was for the same reason that Armor Break currently isn't working though.

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CT5Holy [Posts: 1104]
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  • [October 17, 2014, 05:04:21 AM]
Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
« Reply #1553 on: October 17, 2014, 05:04:21 AM »
Old Phoenix Blade was fine. Winrates of teams with Phoenix Blade was abysmal. I think it's a lot more interesting than the current version.

Quickening is also probably fine. If a unit is actually spamming it, that team is already winning to begin with (ex. Wiz's team - against teams that could actually compete with it, the thieves were either using items or attacking. They used Quickening a lot when either 1. against teams that couldn't threaten them, or 2. if against a competent team, the enemy team was berserked/blinded/poisoned/dead. In other words, when Wiz had won). Most units only get 1-2 uses out of Quickening before other priorities show up.

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The Damned [Posts: 2168]
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  • [October 17, 2014, 05:51:09 AM]
Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
« Reply #1554 on: October 17, 2014, 05:51:09 AM »
(Shrug.)

Like I said, I'm not ever going to like Quickening, especially since it's making a decent amount of other skills currently suck. If FFMaster and other people want to keep it around, then I'll stop (publicly) kvetching about it. I was just under the impression pretty much everyone wanted it gone and yet here it still is.

I'm also not sure what's (a lot more) interesting about an item that regularly, unnecessarily dragged out single rounds to 20+ minutes because the A.I. is blind to and easily manipulated by some things, but different strokes and all that. I'm personally just glad it's gone even if I'm not exactly ecstatic about the new Phoenix Blade either (partly because Quickening makes its "drawback" moot). At least the new Phoenix Blade shouldn't make matches with it tedious to record.

"Sorrow cannot be abolished. It is meaningless to try." - FFX's Yunalesca

"Good and evil are relative, but being a dick cannot be allowed." - Oglaf's Thaumaturge in "The Abyss"

"Well, see, the real magic isn't believing in yourself. The real magic is manipulating people by telling them to believe in themselves. The more you believe, the less you check facts."  - Oglaf's Vanka in "Conviction"
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FFMaster [Posts: 2499]
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  • [October 17, 2014, 06:28:33 AM]
Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
« Reply #1555 on: October 17, 2014, 06:28:33 AM »
Phoenix Blade was changed mainly because of how stupidly long all matches with them took. 30 minutes per battle of the same loop over and over is not something anyone here really wants.

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silentkaster [Posts: 542]
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  • [October 17, 2014, 07:03:54 AM]
Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
« Reply #1556 on: October 17, 2014, 07:03:54 AM »
My only thought to having an Always: Reraise weapon would be to make it Always: Poison Immune: Regen...

Now, when the unit gets up, it would have to heal itself in order to stay alive. Yes, Move-HP UP would work to at least keep the unit alive a turn or two, but the unit would just run off and healing would be its priority. Also, the other units would have to potentially waste turns trying to keep this unit alive by restoring HP.

IDK, I thought it'd be a fun twist. Yes, the unit would always come back, but it wouldn't be able to do anything unless it immediately healed itself and then it wastes its first turn giving the enemy a chance to take it down again. I'm not saying an Always: Reraise item should even be in the game...but this would just be an interesting twist if something were to come back with Always: Reraise.

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reinoe [Posts: 450]
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  • [October 23, 2014, 07:02:51 AM]
Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
« Reply #1557 on: October 23, 2014, 07:02:51 AM »
Can we have three Mimes on a team since, due to equipment etc, the units can all be different?

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FFMaster [Posts: 2499]
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  • [October 23, 2014, 07:37:41 AM]
Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
« Reply #1558 on: October 23, 2014, 07:37:41 AM »
Yes, you are allowed to have as many Mimes as you want, as long as it fits the rules. There is no restrictions on base class. You can make a team with 4 Monks if you wanted to, as long as it follows the rules for Skillsets/Items.

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Reks [Posts: 682]
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  • [October 26, 2014, 09:58:08 AM]
Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
« Reply #1559 on: October 26, 2014, 09:58:08 AM »
My only thought to having an Always: Reraise weapon would be to make it Always: Poison Immune: Regen...

Now, when the unit gets up, it would have to heal itself in order to stay alive. Yes, Move-HP UP would work to at least keep the unit alive a turn or two, but the unit would just run off and healing would be its priority. Also, the other units would have to potentially waste turns trying to keep this unit alive by restoring HP.

IDK, I thought it'd be a fun twist. Yes, the unit would always come back, but it wouldn't be able to do anything unless it immediately healed itself and then it wastes its first turn giving the enemy a chance to take it down again. I'm not saying an Always: Reraise item should even be in the game...but this would just be an interesting twist if something were to come back with Always: Reraise.

One could force a loop of the enemy team chasing said perma-Critical unit around BECAUSE he's in Critical, and for the most part ignore his allies.

Honestly, there's not a whole lot you can do to balance an Always: Reraise without making it overpowered/worthless. Even doing something like Always: Death Sentence would be unbalanced, as with repeated Balance nukes, especially if the unit has 0 move.
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