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Calculator -> Blue Mage  (Read 15517 times)
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huthutchuck
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  • [November 24, 2007, 12:45:59 AM]
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« Reply #60 on: November 24, 2007, 12:45:59 AM »
The reason why I said that is a necromancer should have control of the undead.  The main reason why I'm wondering this is because it would be a great skill to have and also a great skill to go against.  Imagine how afraid you would be to have one of your units die close to a necromancer?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by huthutchuck »
Chrona [Posts: 237]
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  • [November 24, 2007, 12:48:19 AM]
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« Reply #61 on: November 24, 2007, 12:48:19 AM »
There could be a single panel Zombie Raise thing to control an enemy, that would make sense. I was thinking along the lines of Mind Control - 100% Charm on any undead
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by Chrona »
Silver Noble
huthutchuck
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  • [November 24, 2007, 12:53:17 AM]
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« Reply #62 on: November 24, 2007, 12:53:17 AM »
I like it, similar effect without the permanent setbacks.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by huthutchuck »
Kourama [Posts: 385]
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  • [December 04, 2007, 07:36:38 PM]
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« Reply #63 on: December 04, 2007, 07:36:38 PM »
I already have changed my FFT around to have Calculator as a Blue Mage. Blue Mage learns magic like it should (by getting hit by it), but all the moves are exactly the same as if the monsters had it.

So basically no MP to use abilities and not charge time. As for stats I have incredibly low MP growth and slightly better MA than Black Mage. I know that it makes for a good Blu/Sam combo but you could always tone down Sam anyway.

The moves I have are as follows:

Choco Cure
Mutilate
Aqua Soul
Beaking (changed to -5 PA)
Bad Bracelet
Giga Flare
Dark Whisper
Oink
Blaster (added Don't Move as a random effect so you can learn the move)
Death Sentence
Self Destruct
Level Blast
Calm Spirit (gives haste to self and all around, Protect Spirit gives Wall now)
Blow Fire
Thunder Bracelet

From my use of Blue Mage it really isn't broken. Most if not all moves are an ok hit % and the damage is no where near as strong as if a monster had used the move.

Only thing I don't know how to do is change the names of things like Calculator --> Blue Mage to have it show up like that in the game.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by Kourama »
VincentCraven [Posts: 1094]
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  • [December 05, 2007, 12:10:26 AM]
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« Reply #64 on: December 05, 2007, 12:10:26 AM »
I'm glad to see that you have a Blue Mage that works without using MP. My question though is, would a person playing your version ever use Aqua Soul over Giga Flare? Sure, it costs less JP, but it was pretty useless in my earlier version once the class was mastered. Also, it shouldn't be so powerful near the beginning of the game. I could make the Soul ability more powerful than Giga Flare; however...

 I like to think that Giga Flare is a powerful, one (or two) time move and have proceeded to give it an MP cost. I couldn't find an effective way to give Blue Mage an ultimate ability and still make a reason for every character to be used (an idealistic goal, but I think I'm getting there). I am glad that you also made a motion to keep the monsters better at their own skills than the Blue Mage is.

Changing "Calculator" to "Blue Mage" isn't too hard. Easiest thing would be to go into Winhex, open up World.bin and Battle.bin and replace 0c242f26382f24373235 with 0b2f3828fa16242a28fa. That should fix the problem, but I may have overlooked another important location...

Zodiac: Replacing 10 bytes by 9 bytes? I don't remember teaching you that. Fixed it.
Edit: Whoops, yeah I forgot the space at the end... >.>
« Last Edit: December 05, 2007, 09:42:42 AM by VincentCraven »
I changed jobs and that has made all the difference.
Argg0
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  • [December 05, 2007, 03:15:42 AM]
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« Reply #65 on: December 05, 2007, 03:15:42 AM »
Easy solution to Soul abilities: Add status.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by Argg0 »
Kourama [Posts: 385]
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  • [December 05, 2007, 03:59:10 AM]
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« Reply #66 on: December 05, 2007, 03:59:10 AM »
You are right it would be pretty worthless to use Aqua Soul instead of Giga Flare but factor in that you can't really get Giga Flare until late in the game because every single move is learned from a monster.

No abilities can be learned with JP. Now since this is the case Blue Mage is kind of like Samurai where the stronger moves are the ones you end up using more but you get to use them when you get the katanas.

Besides like Argg0 said you could always add a status ability to the Soul abilities. Although that would make the Zombies/Ghosts much tougher enemies.

Edit: Just a few more things, from my experience with Blue Mage in other FFT games there have always been moves that were somewhat worthless. Making the abilities learned from monsters makes someone work much harder to master Blue Mage. Anyway I just think having my BLU the way it is makes it worth the effort.

Besides if you wanted to make lets say "Aqua Soul" more useful you could  have it have a chance to turn enemies into a frog (like that Geomancer move).
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by Kourama »
VincentCraven [Posts: 1094]
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  • [December 05, 2007, 10:33:33 AM]
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« Reply #67 on: December 05, 2007, 10:33:33 AM »
Ah, right...

Though that means I would have to go against what most people have voted for >.>
Though the old Blue Mages did have skills that cost MP, but now I'm really not sure which way to go. I think it's time we opened the floor for good reasons for and against certain Blue Mage traits.


Right now, we either will have Blue Mage end up better at magic than all other classes, but due to having low MP, the Blue Mage will be able to cast fewer spells, or have Black Mage better at most Blue Magic, which just seems wrong. If none of the Blue Mage skills cost MP, then the MPM of Blue Mage can be incredibly low, so that Blue Mage will have to rely on robes and hats to cast regular magic.

Balancing the skills within the set is dependent either on MP cost, or making the skills only learnable Blue Mage style. Aqua Soul becoming obsolete (or Wind Soul) isn't a problem if one can learn the Soul ability in Chapter 1 or 2 but will not be able to learn Giga Flare until late Chapter 3 or Chapter 4. Otherwise, there would need to be an MP cost for Giga Flare, which would cause the Blue Mage to need MP. Then, either Blue Mage will be able to use Giga Flare much less than other mages, or Blue Mage will need less MA and more MP.

So really, my argument boils down to this: MP Cost for some skills or learn skills Blue Mage style only? I can guess where Argg0 and Kourama stand...
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by VincentCraven »
I changed jobs and that has made all the difference.
Asmo X [Posts: 1689]
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  • [December 05, 2007, 12:50:22 PM]
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« Reply #68 on: December 05, 2007, 12:50:22 PM »
I should at least point this out: Learning skills exclusively "Blue Mage Style" has no bearing whatsoever on balance. It does not permeate the game in any way. All it does is create a temporary large nuisance for the player as they grope around aimlessly, a) trying to figure out which skills can be learned and then b) Subjecting themselves lengthily to the capricious nature of the enemy or going through the rigmarole of recruiting the enemy and casting the skill on their own Blue Mage team mate. Of the latter situation I have to say, what on earth does this add to anything? It's not difficult, it's tedious. Which is a fair history of all Blue Mages throughout the history of FF games. Skill learning is the lumbering jalopy of the series and it's wise not to get sentimental about it.

Balance is neutral to any moment in the game. It isn't a balance issue to have to learn skills because learning is a momentary thing. You don't have the skill, then you do. Balance should be a question of the lasting usefulness of the skill, not the temporary nuisance of learning it. Similarly, learning a skill late in the game isn't a balance issue. Again, think of lasting neutrality. Once you have the late skill, the other(s) is/are obsolete. There is no late game balance there.

I'm for applying MP limitations to the Blue Mage as a way of confining its potency in the other disciplines. In fact, I don't think MP is used well enough in general (across pretty much all RPGs) as a tool to balance classes/skills.
« Last Edit: December 05, 2007, 03:48:31 PM by Asmo X »
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Kuraudo Sutoraifu [Posts: 903]
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  • [December 05, 2007, 02:37:18 PM]
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« Reply #69 on: December 05, 2007, 02:37:18 PM »
I am actually for both for MP cost and blue mage style learning.  I understand Asmo X aversion to the tedium of learning skills that way, but I do not view it that way.  Asmo, you say we shouldn't get sentimental about that style of learning, but I thought the whole reason the Blue Mage was being added was because of sentimentality and nostalgia.

If we don't give the Blue Mage an MP cost, he will just spam Giga Flare every turn.  Giga flare should be a one or two time thing per battle, kinda of like metoer.  So I say the Blue Mage should have the best MA, have low MP, and have summoner SP.  If the Blue Mage would run out of MP, some of his weaker abilities could MP cost of 0 or just a low MP cost like 4 or 5.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by Kuraudo Sutoraifu »
Asmo X [Posts: 1689]
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  • [December 05, 2007, 03:11:09 PM]
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« Reply #70 on: December 05, 2007, 03:11:09 PM »
Sometimes bad ideas install themselves in tradition. Blue Magic learning is like that. But I should say I have no problem whatsoever if this is used in conjunction with JP purchasing.

I don't know if there has to be a "why" about job inclusion. To me, a Blue Mage in this game is a versatile, no charge mage. I think that distingushes the set enough. And the fact that it has monster skills is enough to make it Blue Mageish.

Really, if there absolutely have to be learn-only skills, one tradition that needs a swift kick in the ass is that there isn't so much as a hint as to what they are or who/what has them. They love to completely hide shit like that. How about, when you check the description of a dictionary it mentions a learnable monster skill. There can be one of these for each dictionary with the rest of the skills JP purchasable too.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by Asmo X »
Argg0
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  • [December 05, 2007, 03:22:07 PM]
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« Reply #71 on: December 05, 2007, 03:22:07 PM »
I don't know... I always though it was fun to learn blue magic on getting hit style...

And...

Quote from: "Argg0"
Geomancy, Martial Arts, Draw Out... they all are Faith undependent, chargeless and no MP.

And no one complains.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by Argg0 »
Kourama [Posts: 385]
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  • [December 05, 2007, 03:31:47 PM]
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« Reply #72 on: December 05, 2007, 03:31:47 PM »
I'm not really against Blue Magic costing mp, but if it does cost mp a lot of balancing issues come into play.

All mage jobs would have to be looked at to make sure Blue Mage uses its abilities better than other mages and monsters would need to go through some sort of change. I've never been too into programming so I don't know how much it would entail to make sure monsters use their abilities without cost to mp while Blue Mage must use them with mp, but I guessing it might be more work than necessary.

Anyway as for Blue Magic being learned with JP, I see Asmo's point in how tedious it can be. Lets say if Blue Mage is implemented with JP costs, there is pretty much no good reason to have it able to be learned by getting hit by it. It would be much easier and faster to learn abilities through JP then getting hit by them.

In any case I do like Asmo's idea about putting the moves that Blue Mage can learn in a dictionary. Another idea would be to just have certain monster moves say "Blue Magic" just like certain magic moves say "Calc" when you press select to check them.

I'm just pretty much tossing out ideas and playing devil's advocate to make sure all bases are covered. I think its clear how Asmo and I would like Blue Mage but I leave it to everyone to vote on what they like and more importantly what would work well.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by Kourama »
Asmo X [Posts: 1689]
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  • [December 05, 2007, 03:46:01 PM]
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« Reply #73 on: December 05, 2007, 03:46:01 PM »
True. Maybe they should complain though. I think Draw Out is way too good. They've essentially tried to balance it with money and that's a stupid-ass idea. You know what would be good? If a broken item was repaired after battle. Breaking a weapon is a strategic option. To have breakage carry over afterwards is just spiteful.

This would be good because you could use Katanas as de facto MP but even more severe. They could be super cheap, break every time you use a DO and you could only stock like, a few of them. That'd really make you think.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by Asmo X »
Kourama [Posts: 385]
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  • [December 05, 2007, 04:11:37 PM]
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« Reply #74 on: December 05, 2007, 04:11:37 PM »
Yeah I do agree that Draw Out is pretty cheap although I think making it faith dependent and making PA/MA affect damage would solve most problems with it.

I think the biggest problem is that the enemies never really take advantage of the unbalanced abilities in the game. Math Skill, Blade Grasp, Draw Out, to  
name a few are cheap only really because players can exploit them but enemies never do.

And it isn't because the AI wouldn't exploit them because one of the first few times I played this game the AI charmed one of my people which charmed another one of my people which then used Math Skill to cast Raise 2 on all the enemies. Its that fact that the AI never has access to those abilities.

Although some of the multiplayer battles on the PSP version do exploit some things in this game.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by Kourama »
VincentCraven [Posts: 1094]
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  • [December 05, 2007, 11:09:31 PM]
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« Reply #75 on: December 05, 2007, 11:09:31 PM »
Quote from: "Asmo X"
Balance is neutral to any moment in the game....Similarly, learning a skill late in the game isn't a balance issue. Again, think of lasting neutrality. Once you have the late skill, the other(s) is/are obsolete. There is no late game balance there.

But if the player doesn't get this 'upgrade' until the last fifth or so of the game, isn't it safe to say that people would actually put the skill to use for most of the game? I don't know about you, but I rate balance on how much a skill/class would be used over a wide range of gamers. But anyway...

Giga Flare won't be disproportionately powerful when you actually DO get it, but I see your concern. Unlike any other skills, Giga Flare is powerful, has range, a large AoE, and has no cost to you, not even money. You can't say that any other skill falls into this category. Also, IIRC money is in abundance by the end, so I will jack up prices of late-game items if I find this to be the case. (I know people can random battle until they get that money, but they can also break the game by powerleveling if they so choose.) That being said, if your character can't learn Giga Flare until Chapter 4, it won't be a problem as long as it is weaker than most other class's ultimate attacks.

Draw Out was just cheap because the Q value was set for Samurai, which is 90MAM, not Wizard, which is 150MAM. Perhaps this wasn't enough, but I made Black Mage have 130MAM (or was it 135?) and reduced the Q value (Samurai MAM raised proportionately ofc). I'd say maybe go with an MA and PA formula, but faith should be reserved for magic. I'd love to limit the number of katanas one can hold in stock, but there are much simpler ways of handling Draw Out. A good example is trying to make monsters not use MP for skills that do cost MP when I can just simply make the monsters have a surplus of MP. With a C growth of 0 and a multiplier of 255, the MP wouldn't be a problem. I'd spend my time trying to make Doublecast before messing with maximum katana stock.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by VincentCraven »
I changed jobs and that has made all the difference.
Asmo X [Posts: 1689]
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  • [December 06, 2007, 12:55:56 AM]
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« Reply #76 on: December 06, 2007, 12:55:56 AM »
Well we obviously have different approaches to balance. I think it should be utterly constant. If you say "well I'm going to make this skill better than the others because you get it so late" then it's possible for me to imagine a battle situation where there is imbalance. In this case, it is a late battle in the game. If I understand correctly, your approach is more along the lines of time in possession of the skill relative to the story battles.

I don't mind if the skill does the most damage, as long as it has some limiting qualities. And I don't want you to think I was trying to single out Giga Flare. I was just trying to point out what I thought was the correct way of thinking about balance.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by Asmo X »
Argg0
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  • [December 06, 2007, 05:17:54 AM]
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« Reply #77 on: December 06, 2007, 05:17:54 AM »
Blue magic learning is also a way to balance. As you said, it will only be avaible by chapter four.

By chapter 4, MA * 7 is kinda laughtable. I mean, take a look at Limit for example... Cross Slash does MA * 22. Sure, it has less range and area (though, v0 doesn't really help...).

It will deal the about same damage as Geomancy, or less. Geomancy has 5 range and 2v0 while Giga Flare has 4 range and 3v0. I'd take Geomancy over Giga...

So, I don't think it's rigged.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by Argg0 »
karsten
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  • [December 06, 2007, 06:24:43 AM]
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« Reply #78 on: December 06, 2007, 06:24:43 AM »
Quote from: "Argg0"
Blue magic learning is also a way to balance. As you said, it will only be avaible by chapter four.

By chapter 4, MA * 7 is kinda laughtable. I mean, take a look at Limit for example... Cross Slash does MA * 22. Sure, it has less range and area (though, v0 doesn't really help...).

It will deal the about same damage as Geomancy, or less. Geomancy has 5 range and 2v0 while Giga Flare has 4 range and 3v0. I'd take Geomancy over Giga...

So, I don't think it's rigged.

i agree. and remember that you soon get red chocobos... choco meteor!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by karsten »
huthutchuck
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  • [December 06, 2007, 08:00:29 AM]
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« Reply #79 on: December 06, 2007, 08:00:29 AM »
I agree with the idea of making the blue magic cost mp.  In the classic FF games, ff6 for example, the blue magic spells always cost more and were more powerful than the normal black magic spells.  Want a possible solution keep the magic attack and magic growth of the blue mage lower than the black mage.  In order to balance give higher mp and mp growth to the blue mage and make the blue magic spells cost ridiculous amounts of mp ala summoner.  You can't cheese an ability as a black mage if you only have enough magic to cast it once.  Don't be afraid to create Mighty Guard but let it cost maybe 64 or 70 mp.

As for samurai, I don't think draw out is as cheap as everyone says.  I'll admit it is very powerful but the most powerful abilities are from rare swords.    You should only have about one or two of them.  Besides the samurai and other advanced classes are the reward for training your character through other classes.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by huthutchuck »
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