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Job & Skill Proposals/Idea Thread  (Read 68800 times)
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Vanya [Posts: 3965]
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  • [November 21, 2009, 03:35:58 PM]
Job & Skill Proposals/Idea Thread
« on: November 21, 2009, 03:35:58 PM »
This thread is similar in concept to the Patch Proposals/Idea Thread; the reduction of new posts about job concepts and execution. However, it will also have some secondary purposes. This thread will also help to reduce "How do I make X job" questions in the Help forum.
« Last Edit: March 29, 2010, 04:38:41 AM by Vanya »
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    Vanya [Posts: 3965]
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    • [November 21, 2009, 03:45:14 PM]
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    « Reply #1 on: November 21, 2009, 03:45:14 PM »
    Let's begin discussion with the ever popular Blue Mage.
    As many of us know we can set any skill in FFT to be learned on hit. This includes monster skills which are woefully incompatible with humans without some modification. The problem here is that if left alone the monster skills are very weak in comparison to other magics in the game. The reason is monsters' high MA growth.

    I can see two solutions to this; one simple and the other tedious, but far less lame.
    1) Leave each skill as is and choose only insta-cast skills for the Blue Mage to learn. The skills will be weak, but they won't cost any MP anyway. This is totally unlike a normal FF Blue Mage, though.
    2) For a more tedious but very win and FF like set of skills, we could mod all monsters stats a skill powers to be more in line with the humans. For example cut all MA growth by 1/2 and increase all MA based skill damage/Hit rate by 2x.
    Next would be to give all MA based skills an MP cost which will have the added affect of preventing lower level monsters from using more powerful skills as well as granting the Blue Mage spells a cost.

    As for base stats for a Blue Mage we can take some ques from the Geomancer since they are both forms of warrior mages.

    Traditionally, Blue mages tend to use knives, swords, rods, staves, and only light armor, clothes, or robes. I tend to think of them as more speed based fighters as opposed to Geomancers who are more strength based, and Red Mages which are totally average in almost every way.
    « Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by Vanya »
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    Orlandu [Posts: 155]
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    • [November 23, 2009, 01:43:16 AM]
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    « Reply #2 on: November 23, 2009, 01:43:16 AM »
    i think there's another problem with blue mage... if blue mage exists, it would kill the purpose of using monster to fight.. because they have  a compilation of a lot of monster's skill.. it's just like you're using a chimera which is capable of wearing equips, and lower stats.

    i guess the first solution is better. So the blue mage skill will be weaker compared to the real monster's skill, but he has a number of skills to choose to. i myself like self destruct, bad breath, odd soundwave, and choco meteor as blue mage's skill =p and i've tried gave choco meteor on one of my unit, it's weak but not that bad because it's instant cast and has a really long range.
    « Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by Orlandu »
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    jimmyjw88 [Posts: 2913]
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    • [November 23, 2009, 02:37:04 AM]
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    « Reply #3 on: November 23, 2009, 02:37:04 AM »
    Yes, I agree with Orlandu on this. If reduce monsters MA growth, making the spells weaker (same average as human), there's no point fighting monsters anymore and not challenging because they are same as us, human level spells/skills, except that they are monster. Just that difference. Making monsters weak just for Blue Mage, I don't think that's worth it all. I rather choose having monsters strong than having Blue Mage by making monsters weak for its skills, which is on our side. It becomes imbalance. Having insta-cast of weak skills isn't really bad at all because they have varieties of skills and long range. So, I would say go for the first option, weak insta-cast skills while monsters stay strong.
    « Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by jimmyjw88 »
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    Vanya [Posts: 3965]
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    • [November 23, 2009, 02:42:04 AM]
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    « Reply #4 on: November 23, 2009, 02:42:04 AM »
    The usage of any given job in this thread will be totally up to the hacker we're just going to discus the best way to execute them with our current resources.

    As far as the skills go You also have to consider the character animations that the skills use.
    If the animation isn't compatible with a human it will look horrible.
    It is possible to change the character animation with the newest version of the patcher, but you'd have to choose something suitable for both the monster and the Blue Mage.
    « Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by Vanya »
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    SilvasRuin [Posts: 1405]
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    • [November 23, 2009, 02:55:06 AM]
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    « Reply #5 on: November 23, 2009, 02:55:06 AM »
    While I've never really started working on the specifics, there is one way of handling Blue Mage that I have considerable interest in.  One could sacrifice Poach and Samurai to, in a way, emulate the Learn ability.  Make all the poaching rewards into the katanas (the katanas can be altered in whatever fashion the person wants) and give Poach/Secret Hunt to the Samurai.  Take Samurai's abilities and edit them to emulate certain monster skills.  This method is sort like how one got souls for the Morpher in FFTA.  Give those same abilities to Monsters while doing the things Vanya mentioned, then make them Learn on Hit, and you'll have something vaguely resembling what I've read is the FFXI way to learn abilities.  (First see it and then defeat the monster.)
    « Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by SilvasRuin »
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    jimmyjw88 [Posts: 2913]
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    • [November 23, 2009, 08:46:24 AM]
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    « Reply #6 on: November 23, 2009, 08:46:24 AM »
    So far, we have punch, slash, pierce, and casting. So we change those animation?

    @SilvasRuin - So meaning we use Samurais' abilities to change it to monsters' abilities? Why katanas acquired from poaching? Is the Blue Mage going to need katana to use skills?
    « Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by jimmyjw88 »
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    SilvasRuin [Posts: 1405]
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    • [November 23, 2009, 09:41:42 AM]
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    « Reply #7 on: November 23, 2009, 09:41:42 AM »
    That is the idea.  It would require the Blue Mage (or someone who learned Secret Hunt/Poach from Blue Mage) to kill the monster to get the item to fuel the ability.  It also makes the abilities just a bit trickier to get (depending on the situation), and could potentially justify giving them a little bit better effect by making uses depend on gathering the kills necessary for the abilities.  (Those abilities can function properly with MP costs, can't they?)
    « Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by SilvasRuin »
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    jimmyjw88 [Posts: 2913]
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    • [November 23, 2009, 10:37:46 AM]
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    « Reply #8 on: November 23, 2009, 10:37:46 AM »
    That actually is good idea, making the abilities not easy to learn. However, Blue Mage use katana...that's abit funny though. But I definitely like the idea. ^^
    « Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by jimmyjw88 »
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    Vanya [Posts: 3965]
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    • [November 23, 2009, 03:30:17 PM]
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    « Reply #9 on: November 23, 2009, 03:30:17 PM »
    Edited first post with names for the 3 flavors of Blue Mage we have thus far.

    That is a very interesting idea. Learn the skills the normal Blue Mage way, and then require the monsters soul to be able to use the skills. It would also solve the problem with the Samurais' skillset bug. Then you could make a custom Samurai that is glitch free. My only concern then would be the rather short list of skills the Samurai has. Would it be plausible to add more skills? What effect would that have on item consumption?

    I believe I'll be making 3 tutorials for the three different flavors of Blue Mage.

    There still needs to be some sort of balancing for the Classic variety, though. Assuming one nerfed the monsters' magic abilities, but still left them a step above the abilities of human, what else could be done to prevent the Blue Mage from powning the monsters? ...

    Actually, there is one mechanism that I mentioned that makes monsters still better than a Blue Mage; MP. If the all the Monster Skills are given MP cost it would be more detrimental to the Blue Mages than the monsters. Monsters have to have enough MP to use an ability, but they still don't use it up like a human. For monsters, MP just determines at about what level they have to be to use a given skill with an MP cost. So for the Blue Mage they would still be limited by their MP as to what skills they can cast PLUS they actually consume MP as they use their skills.

    Here's another thing I thought of. Give all the skills that a Blue Mage can learn a CT like any normal spell and then give all the monsters the "Non-charge" skill. That will further differentiate a Blue Mage from monsters.

    So in the end the 'Classic' Blue Mage will have slightly lower MA/MP growth than a monster, will need to consume MP, and will have CT for his skills. Is there anything else we can/need do to this version of the Blue Mage?
    « Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by Vanya »
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    Orlandu [Posts: 155]
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    • [November 23, 2009, 05:01:47 PM]
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    « Reply #10 on: November 23, 2009, 05:01:47 PM »
    Quote from: "Vanya"
    but they still don't use it up like a human

    is this possible? how?

    Quote from: "Vanya"
    Here's another thing I thought of. Give all the skills that a Blue Mage can learn a CT like any normal spell and then give all the monsters the "Non-charge" skill. That will further differentiate a Blue Mage from monsters.


    this is better solution than the previous ones. Still, it's not easy to determine how many CT for what skills...
    « Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by Orlandu »
    Skip Sandwich [Posts: 994]
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    • [November 23, 2009, 08:00:18 PM]
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    « Reply #11 on: November 23, 2009, 08:00:18 PM »
    @Orlandu
    monsters just don't consume mp when using skills that have mp costs, its hardcoded into the game. If thier max mp is lower then the mp cost, then they can't use the skill, but otherwise they can fire at will with no restrait
    « Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by Skip Sandwich »
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    Vanya [Posts: 3965]
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    • [November 23, 2009, 08:12:16 PM]
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    « Reply #12 on: November 23, 2009, 08:12:16 PM »
    That's right, Skip. Also, figuring out appropriate CT isn't that hard at all.
    You can compare the power of the skill and the effects it has to some of the Mage spells to get a good idea of what to use.
    « Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by Vanya »
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    SilvasRuin [Posts: 1405]
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    • [November 24, 2009, 02:06:05 AM]
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    « Reply #13 on: November 24, 2009, 02:06:05 AM »
    Except vanilla has terrible CT times for the longer abilities...  They should at least be pointed to the 1.3 stat sheets to get an idea of what better CTs there could be.
    « Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by SilvasRuin »
    Vanya [Posts: 3965]
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    • [November 24, 2009, 02:33:46 AM]
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    « Reply #14 on: November 24, 2009, 02:33:46 AM »
    I think that is something I'd leave to them to figure out.
    I'll just be sure to make a note of it somewhere.
    « Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by Vanya »
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    jimmyjw88 [Posts: 2913]
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    • [November 24, 2009, 08:47:27 AM]
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    « Reply #15 on: November 24, 2009, 08:47:27 AM »
    Yes, I like the latest idea. I think that's much better. That way, monsters are still strong while Blue Mage can have their abilities from monsters. Nice ^^
    Though one part, what do you mean by getting souls from monsters? Meaning you can learn the abilities but unable to use unless get hit?
    « Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by jimmyjw88 »
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    SilvasRuin [Posts: 1405]
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    • [November 24, 2009, 09:32:21 AM]
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    « Reply #16 on: November 24, 2009, 09:32:21 AM »
    Um... the only mention of souls in this thread that I'm aware of is my reference to the FFTA Morphers.  Morphers learned how to mimic monsters from their soul weapons, most of which were obtained by using a Hunter to capture a monster with a special skill.  If that isn't what you're asking about, then I don't have a clue what statement you are referring to.
    « Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by SilvasRuin »
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    jimmyjw88 [Posts: 2913]
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    • [November 24, 2009, 10:45:14 AM]
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    « Reply #17 on: November 24, 2009, 10:45:14 AM »
    Hmm....so meaning each abilities required some souls to use the skills? Like what you suggest about Samurai's skills using katana? So, for Blue Mage to use the skills, example, choco meteor, required muramasa, to use?
    « Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by jimmyjw88 »
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    akwikone [Posts: 389]
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    • [November 24, 2009, 03:39:08 PM]
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    « Reply #18 on: November 24, 2009, 03:39:08 PM »
    Yes, I implemented this in one my personal patches about a month ago.  Though I haven't tested it yet, it seems like it should work fine.
    « Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by akwikone »
    Vanya [Posts: 3965]
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    • [November 24, 2009, 04:15:25 PM]
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    « Reply #19 on: November 24, 2009, 04:15:25 PM »
    The back-story for the Blue Mages states that they actually learned to use Blue Magic by capturing monster souls or something like that.

    Now that we have some solid ideas for how to set up their skills, what about stats? As I stated before Blue Mages are traditionally are considered warrior mages. I think this would make sense since they don't wield the raw power of Black Mages or have the healing prowess of White Mages. Hell, their spells aren't even easy to get as a Red Mage.

    So I think they should have stats that fall somewhere in line with the Geomancer only a bit more magic oriented. What do you guys think?
    « Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by Vanya »
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