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FFT: ASM'D main info/discussion  (Read 108875 times)
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Aquilae [Posts: 563]
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  • [October 12, 2009, 07:02:04 AM]
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« Reply #20 on: October 12, 2009, 07:02:04 AM »
Remove Teleport, and set 3 Move to all units. Teleport is basically 70% Move + 3 and ignores terrain, which is pretty great if you ask me. If you want to keep it remove the ability to move beyond your normal movement range.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by Aquilae »
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SilvasRuin [Posts: 1405]
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  • [October 12, 2009, 07:29:30 AM]
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« Reply #21 on: October 12, 2009, 07:29:30 AM »
Alternatively you could ASM hack it so that every extra space you try adds a 20% chance to fail instead of a 10% chance to fail.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by SilvasRuin »
Asmo X [Posts: 1689]
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  • [October 12, 2009, 03:45:14 PM]
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« Reply #22 on: October 12, 2009, 03:45:14 PM »
It's not just lateral movement. People always seem to forget the fact that it ignores obstacles and height variations. Its just an incredibly stupid, broken move for a patch that wants to make movement and position mean something
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by Asmo X »
SolidSnakeDog
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  • [October 12, 2009, 04:13:52 PM]
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« Reply #23 on: October 12, 2009, 04:13:52 PM »
Maybe make it so you always has a small chance to miss wen moving by 1-3 panels. (About 20% or something...)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by SolidSnakeDog »
Skip Sandwich [Posts: 994]
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  • [October 12, 2009, 04:31:16 PM]
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« Reply #24 on: October 12, 2009, 04:31:16 PM »
I liked the idea of making teleport similar to the Defend support command, that way you could either act or teleport, but not both, on any given round. Combine this with some ASM hacks to remove the ability to teleport beyond your movement and you have a useful ability to sacrifice your action in order to bypass obstacles or enemies within your normal movement range. Also, if this reworked teleport is changed to be a support ability, then the Fly movement ability would finally see some use, because A) it achives the same thing without taking up a support slot, and B) it doesn't require the sacrifice of an action, ballanced by C) since it takes a move slot, unlike this hypothetical teleport, you cannot also throw Move +1/+2 on there, and are stuck with Base Move + shoes to increase range
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by Skip Sandwich »
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Sephirot24
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  • [October 12, 2009, 04:34:58 PM]
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« Reply #25 on: October 12, 2009, 04:34:58 PM »
Skip's idea about teleport isn't too bad. You may have a point there.

Also, I agree about potions Asmo! I totally forgot about Auto-potion. Yeah, leaving potion and Hi-potion at 30 and 70 would be fine. Then giving X-potion around 45% HP restore maybe? IDK if it's possible to ASM only X-potion =/
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by Sephirot24 »
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philsov [Posts: 4598]
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  • [October 12, 2009, 04:53:25 PM]
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« Reply #26 on: October 12, 2009, 04:53:25 PM »
Well, this topic exploded overnight.

Quote
pretty much every other FF game that has a Shield slot allows Wizards to use Shields, so why not in FFT?

???

FF1 = only thing mages got was Buckler.  
FF2 = no class system
FF3 = dual-weilding shields!
FF4 = big negative
FF5 = big negative
FF6 = yes
FF7 = no shield slot
FF8 = no shield slot
FF9 = no shield slot
FF10 = wristband/armlet/shield's the only armor slot
FF12 = no class system

Sorry, there is no precedent here.

Quote
It just seems wrong for Lancers to not be the best with their own skillset

The same can be said for squires, geomancers and knights, regrettably.  Imo, they still are -- no other class has the speed and the PA, save maybe ninja, but a ninja with jump is paying for it with the skillset overlap.

Quote
I don't think the defensive Spells need a range nerf, myself. Making all the "standard" magic 3 range seems fine, as it keeps the mage classes on equal footing

But cure/raise/esuna are still 3 range, and holy is 4.  I really don't see a problem with it.

Quote
...Samurais better suited for using Equip Spear most of the time...

Until Jav II katanas keep a steady ~30% higher WP over spears, so the benefits of attack up match equip spear.  Weird thing to note, though... never thought of that combo.

Quote
Maybe making them range 6... because if I have a knight with 2 move and the enemy has a chemist with 2 move and a gun, I'll be chasing him for the whole battle, and even if I had 3 move he'd still get around 6 hits before I get to him.

Were the chemist human-controlled, yes, that'd be an issue.  However the AI is not that clever.  You'll be fine.  But 6 does work.

Quote
@ Lancers and Jump: Lancers / Spear wielding units should still have a Jump boost. Would you say it's fair that a Geomancer or a Knight has the same jumping power as a Lancer? Makes them less useful/unique

Speed.  Jump on a 100 SPM unit suuuucks.

Quote
Also, quick thought. Wouldn't it be better to simply keep the current move ranges (3-4), and take out Move +2 and Move +3, instead of reducing move and taking out Move +3? With an average of 2 Move, Move +2 becomes the equivalent of Move +3 because it doubles a character's range. Granted, the double is smaller, but every move space matters so much more when you get so many of them, meaning Move +2 would still outclass things. Base 3 move with Move +1 available on Thieves would right this easily, as it's far easier to compete against Move +1 for a Movement Ability slot when every unit has ~3 Move than it is to compete with Move +2 when every unit only has ~2 Move. The results are mostly the same, yet other Movement skills (such as Move-HP UP) actually *are* viable, instead of just looking better on paper.

Possibly, but then Fly(!) would become the movement ability of choice, due to its ability to bypass enemy units/obstacles. It's tweedledee to tweedledum.  Under the current scheme Fly and Move+2 have equal footing, and both are only found on the bard and dancer trees... meaning under non-grind circumstance the player won't access them until at least middle chapter 3.

Quote
Unless C-EVs are buffed a good deal, Global Evasion means that stat stacks on the evasion chain far less per attack, as a 20% C-EV only covers 10% of frontal hits, etc.

Global evasion:
100% effectiveness on the front
50% effectiveness on the sides
25% effectiveness from behind

In order to make your 20% C.Ev effectively 10%, from the front, is if you're already rocking 50% evasion.

Quote
Currently, Abandon + Elf Mantle probably generates more evasion in current 1.3 than a full stack of evasion equipment + Weapon Guard + C-EV would under philsov's setup due to all the slashed numbers.

Assumptions are baaaaaad.  See below.

Quote
Plus, if I'm remembering how evasion in FFT stacks properly, four mediocre numbers will generally be less evasion than Elf Mantle + Abandon.

15 is mediocre, no?

15% weapon + 15% shield + 15% mantle + 15% C.Ev = 48% chance to be hit.  

edit:  15 is probably going to be the MAX amount of W.Ev present on any 1-handed item.  

Quote
My concern is that, if evasion is getting buffed, magic gets better because WG doesn't give M-ev and C-ev doesn't have M-ev either. And the only decent M-ev shield is Aegis, which you get later in the game.

Noted, I can buff the M.Ev of shields to make them better.

Quote
Is it possible to make Jump evadable when not using a Spear, but 100% accurate when you are?

Theoretically, yes.  For the purpose of this project?  Not likely, unless someone else steps up as I'll have my hands full with event editing.  I know the tentative name is ASM'D, but I'm just using the hacks others have made up to this point.

Quote
Oracle could get Drain back since its damage is capped at 250 or something.

Ooooh, forgot about that hack.  Agreed.  It'll be a bit OP at queklain but he's a blip in the bigger picture.

Quote
The problem is that you only get a decent spread for all 3 potions when x-potion is brokenly powerful. If you make the % low you are faced with cramming 2 other potion levels below. If they are all close to one another it's meaningless. If they aren't then your lowest potion is going to do some negligible amount of healing. If you want %-based healing from potions, you only need one potion. It will scale with your HP anyway so why do we need more than 1?

Well the kicker is the ASM hack will do either a set amount or a %, depending on which is higher... so they can be capped from either or both ends -- meaning we can keep the old 30/70/150 (maybe even ratchet to 20/50/120) scheme but also make them each 30% health.  There's still some minor scaling if you're willing to pay for it, but if not handy potion is all you need.

And this is just personally but I never used potions to directly heal -- I just stick to phoenix down and auto-potion...  

Quote
IDK if it's possible to ASM only X-potion =/

I'd rather have some fun with this and make sure I ASM potion for the sake of the AI and auto-potion.  Heck, I can make potion the highest % healing and leave hi-pot/x-pot lower and thus absolutes instead.

Quote
t's a shame we can't just have set speed for all characters for the whole game. That way magic would have some constistency.


I can rework speed growth to make the gap less of a disparity throughout the game.  In fact I probably will.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by philsov »
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LastingDawn [Posts: 3452]
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  • [October 12, 2009, 07:10:23 PM]
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« Reply #27 on: October 12, 2009, 07:10:23 PM »
Back in the infancy of 1.3 an idea was thrown about to make Teleport, Unique to Only Time Mages, and give them 0 Move, and remove their ability to equip Shoes. This will only give them +1 or +2 Move, 2 Move at most, this will do a number of things... this will curb the "Carrier" status of the Time Mage, with itself being slightly unweildy, and maybe people will look to the other mage classes.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by LastingDawn »
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RavenOfRazgriz [Posts: 3030]
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  • [October 12, 2009, 08:04:09 PM]
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« Reply #28 on: October 12, 2009, 08:04:09 PM »
Wow, last time I post late at night unless heavily proofreading and cross referencing of Wikipedia occur.

Ass covering time.  Hopefully I've read through this and made sure my information is correct this time, rofl.

Quote from: "philsov"
Well, this topic exploded overnight.

FF1 = only thing mages got was Buckler.  
FF2 = no class system
FF3 = dual-weilding shields!
FF4 = big negative
FF5 = big negative
FF6 = yes

Sorry, no precedent here.[/quote]

I only quote this part because I said "before FFT" and "that has a Shield slot", which pretty much puts us looking at the NES days.

I would say II doesn't matter either, because as you said there's no class system, so there's no comparison.  But I can't believe I forgot FFIV / FFV.  I feel kinda retarded now.  I blame streaming Kaizo Mario World last night.  /bad excuse

So it's 2.5 to 2.5.  I still doesn't seem unreasonable to me, as Equip Shield is incredibly niche and the classes that would get a buff from a Shield are the ones who probably wouldn't be getting the best Weapon Guard ratings anyway (Mages, as pretty much every physical class besides Monk / Samurai / Ninja can use Shields, and only one of the three would even want too).

Though still.  You corrected me and never actually gave your thoughts on the matter.

What are they?

Quote from: "philsov"
The same can be said for squires, geomancers and knights, regrettably.  Imo, they still are -- no other class has the speed and the PA, save maybe ninja, but a ninja with jump is paying for it with the skillset overlap.

There's one problem with this.

Many classes get to use clothes and hats.  Lancers do not.

This means while they're slow initially, slapping on a Thief Hat and a Power Sleeve or something leaves their stats right up their with Lancers, whereas Lancers really only get rare equipment and Carabini Mail to buff their stats up with.

+PA to Spears would be a cool way to compensate for this too, if you don't want to try doing the other thing.  Until I got Javelin II, I actually noticed my Oracle doing more Two Hands Stick damage than my Lancer did with its equivalent Two Hands Spear, which struck me as silly.

Quote from: "philsov"
But cure/raise/esuna are still 3 range, and holy is 4.  I really don't see a problem with it.

I just don't see a reason to debuff stuff like Protect and Shell.  The guys casting those aren't going to be very mobile anymore unless they're sporting Rubber Costumes with Move +2 (unless you're removing the Move +1 from Rubber Costume as well), so that'd make them hard-pressed to keep up and get those Spells off once the melee's started.  Which, with lowered move making it take longer for the melees to start, is far more important than it was before.

I just realized how silly Meteor is going to be under these new circumstances, unless its getting Holy-like treatment.  Big AoE, but it almost hits the caster and the caster is *still* going to be midcharged by whatever it targeted most likely.  xD;

Quote from: "philsov"
Until Jav II katanas keep a steady ~30% higher WP over spears, so the benefits of attack up match equip spear.  Weird thing to note, though... never thought of that combo.

And again.  Doesn't that seem silly?  That obviously makes Equip Spear > Attack UP since you get the same benefits and an extra panel range.  On a class you wanted to take the innate away from because of Attack UP.  Similar to my whole problem with Jump being 3/2 straight, I think it's silly that a class' best weapon is from another class, and the other class using its innate (Two Hands) is probably better than them with it anyway.  It really devalues the physical Samurai unless you want to give up some HP (a rather noticeable amount, iirc) and (I think?) some PA (may be even, I forget) for some of the supporting Draw Outs instead of using Jump, which I honestly feel is a terrible shame.  Which is why I think these Katanas need a buff to a better formula.

Or elements.

Or some procs.

Or something.

I can't think of a single goddamn reason to ever use a Katana as a melee weapon over something else unless I'm using a male Samurai mage... which makes no goddamn sense, imo.

Quote from: "philsov"
Were the chemist human-controlled, yes, that'd be an issue.  However the AI is not that clever.  You'll be fine.  But 6 does work.

Your comparison just proves that Guns would be broke.

For the player.

Something doesn't need to be broke for the computer for it to be broke.  What's the point in playing if a bunch of human controlled Chemists can pretend this is vanilla all over again?

*vaguely used overexaggeration, sure, but it gets the point across I think*

This issue needs to be resolved in some way.  6 range may do it, but I was going to be more in favor of 5.  Testing would be needed, I suppose.

Quote from: "philsov"
Possibly, but then Fly(!) would become the movement ability of choice, due to its ability to bypass enemy units/obstacles. It's tweedledee to tweedledum.  Under the current scheme Fly and Move+2 have equal footing, and both are only found on the bard and dancer trees... meaning under non-grind circumstance the player won't access them until at least middle chapter 3.

I honestly wouldn't use Fly under the current system that much.

It lets me get behind people, but so does Move +2.  It lets me ignore obstacles (which is admittedly a huge deal in this), but things with 4 Move are going to be outrunning my 2 Move Flier most of the time.

Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't think I'd be using Fly in this hack unless on a mage.  And I used Fly quite a few times in 1.3 on my non-Teleporting units, so that's saying something for me.

With Base 3 Move, Fly indeed becomes better than Move +1, but units are mobile enough to keep gaps open for a good deal of time, meaning things such as Move-HP UP and etc are still somewhat viable.

IDK.  2 Move just leaves me seeing Move +X still being the move of choice in most cases, which seems to defeat the entire purpose of lowering move besides making it easy to rush into their formation and make shit die turn 1.  I could say get rid of Fly, but then we're getting silly excessive.  That, and Fly just looks too awesome and silly to remove.

Quote from: "philsov"
Global evasion:
100% effectiveness on the front
50% effectiveness on the sides
25% effectiveness from behind

In order to make your 20% C.Ev effectively 10%, from the front, is if you're already rocking 50% evasion.

Note to self: l2r.

Though I actually think that makes my case better, unless posting when I first wake up is just as bad as at night.  O.o

Quote from: "philsov"
15 is mediocre, no?

15% weapon + 15% shield + 15% mantle + 15% C.Ev = 48% chance to be hit.  

edit:  15 is probably going to be the MAX amount of W.Ev present on any 1-handed item.

If Weapon Guard caps at 15% for non-Knight Swords (and I would also petition non-Katanas), then that 15% can't be a mediocre value since mediocre is relative to other possibilities, right?

That's max Weapon Guard + Mid level (?) Shield + current Wizard Mantle + Moderate C-EV, from what I can see.  Unless you intend to lower overall C-EV values, which is what I suspect, which could also push that into the higher level areas.  And since the concerns I was debating with him on stemmed from Mages with Shields, I don't think its unreasonable to say that the C-EV will generally not be a giant number for the classes that would benefit from this.  Except Thief, I suppose.   But we could deny Shields to just Thieves if it were really an issue, since that's one class vs an entire side of the job tree, but even then I've found Two Swords far better than chucking a Shield on anyway, as it usually is.  The computer always wins RNG battles because it's lucky as balls.

Compare this to Abandon + Elf Mantle, which nets you 50% straight Physical Evasion (2% more) and 50% M-EV, without even factoring your class in.  That was my point.  The original game lets you do retarded levels of evasion with a single item and a reaction command, so how is that less broken than an entire equipment stack that doesn't even protect your back beyond a Mantle and global C-EV, or even Blade Grasp (save the two things I noted before, but those are compensated for with monster M-EV potential)?

Quote from: "philsov"
Theoretically, yes.  For the purpose of this project?  Not likely, unless someone else steps up as I'll have my hands full with event editing.  I know the tentative name is ASM'D, but I'm just using the hacks others have made up to this point.

I would see if you can get someone to do it then, honestly.  That seems like a really nice ASM hack to make Jump better for all and still give Equip Spear a place in the game on something other than Samurais... which, if my hopes come true, it'll be losing anyway because its place there is just stupid.

Quote from: "philsov"
I'd rather have some fun with this and make sure I ASM potion for the sake of the AI and auto-potion.  Heck, I can make potion the highest % healing and leave hi-pot/x-pot lower and thus absolutes instead.

Why not just remove Hi-Potion and X-Potion and make Potion a 30 HP minimum, 30-50% maximum heal?  Keeps it useful early game while allowing a sort of scaling later on.  The price point on Potions (being essentially free after Chapter 1) shouldn't matter, since the AI also gets infinity Potions.

Quote from: "philsov"
I can rework speed growth to make the gap less of a disparity throughout the game.  In fact I probably will.


Please do.  I hate not being able to use magic end-game.
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philsov [Posts: 4598]
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  • [October 12, 2009, 08:49:46 PM]
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« Reply #29 on: October 12, 2009, 08:49:46 PM »
Quote
Back in the infancy of 1.3 an idea was thrown about to make Teleport, Unique to Only Time Mages, and give them 0 Move, and remove their ability to equip Shoes. This will only give them +1 or +2 Move, 2 Move at most, this will do a number of things... this will curb the "Carrier" status of the Time Mage, with itself being slightly unweildy, and maybe people will look to the other mage classes.

The only carrier aspect of time mage is the speed boost.  They have the worst HP, 2nd worst MA, and can't equip rods for max +MA nor sticks for max melee.  But, making teleport innate and equipping 2 move is really the same as making 2 move innate and equipping teleport, which, under the current teleport, is still too good imo.

Quote
Though still. You corrected me and never actually gave your thoughts on shields for all.

What are they?

That shields kick ass and if a class that can't equip shields wants to they can use up their support slot.  

Quote
What's the point in playing if a bunch of human controlled Chemists can pretend this is vanilla all over again?

Speed ruin, the fact that you already start out near a wall in the first place, and enemies with ranged abilities for starters.

Quote
That's max Weapon Guard + Mid level (?) Shield + current Wizard Mantle + Moderate C-EV

mmm... more lowerish shield, but it works out the same.  Either way odds are abandon is going the way of the dodo anyways, because everyone is getting handed ~10-20% evasion between class, weapons, and far fewer backstabs.

Quote
Why not just remove Hi-Potion and X-Potion


Because item is a single target, restorative skillset and having its only heal (neglecting special use elixirs) 30% is a bit... lackluster.  Having something do absolutely more, especially when battle skill/steal rear their ugly head, is welcome imo.  And 50% is too much, imo.  Turns AP into a poor man's damage split. I'll see if I can tinker with any of the Items, maybe I can turn x-potion into a neato ability (fire bomb!) instead :).
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by philsov »
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Sephirot24
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  • [October 12, 2009, 09:01:20 PM]
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« Reply #30 on: October 12, 2009, 09:01:20 PM »
@ Potions: Bleh.. leave potions as they are now >_> They are ok.

@ Jump: evadable jump? *shivers* that's like.. the main pont of using jump.. ranged 100% physical attack that you can't see where is gonna land on the AT list. I wished we could make it appear in the AT list :(

@ Reduced move: hey.. I've been thinking that Summoning is already great, and very very useful in the early game (until CH3). With reduced move it's gonna get super OP. I always use Ifrit/Salamander + Fire rod until I get 108 Gems and then start using Leviathan. It's gonna rock too much with reduced move... but cross shaped summons like Fire1 will lose their purpose...
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by Sephirot24 »
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RavenOfRazgriz [Posts: 3030]
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  • [October 12, 2009, 09:12:17 PM]
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« Reply #31 on: October 12, 2009, 09:12:17 PM »
Quote from: "philsov"
That shields kick ass and if a class that can't equip shields wants to they can use up their support slot.

Except that never happens unless you're outright negating something with an absorbing Shield, usually.  Seems like a stupid waste of a Support Ability in general, especially when you want to make an Equip Robe.

Quote from: "philsov"
Speed ruin, the fact that you already start out near a wall in the first place, and enemies with ranged abilities for starters.

Speed Ruin requires them getting in range of me, when I can pop them and run back.  By the time they do, they've probably taken massive damage.  They can be healed, sure, but for every extra unit they have on their side supporting, I would (logically) have another supporting Chemist since I made the Chemist SCC comparison.  5 Guns, especially once Elemental Guns become possible, seems like they could start tearing things apart from afar in a player's hand and really leave the computer no way to fight back besides Elixirspam or high ground with Archers (assuming I don't just equip Arrow Guard or Auto Potion and lulz the Archer out).  It just seems like a really easy way to cheese the game.

Maybe the computer can fight back if they have their own equal power Guns and Auto Potion, but when you're fighting high power Guns and Auto Potion with high power Guns and Auto Potion, seems like a really big overcentralization problem.  Especially if you stick with the whole "Equip Gun also allows Robes" thing.  

I'd actually see this as another reason to allow universal shields, since if the CPU can be given Elemental absorbing Shields on key units without needing to become underpowered from having no Support command, this problem is curbed, especially since I also suggested making Guns Two Hands only so Shield + Gun is impossible.

Quote from: "philsov"
That's max Weapon Guard + Mid level (?) Shield + current Wizard Mantle + Moderate C-EV

mmm... more lowerish shield, but it works out the same.  Either way odds are abandon is going the way of the dodo anyways, because everyone is getting handed ~10-20% evasion between class, weapons, and far fewer backstabs.[/quote]

I was assuming a debuffed Shield like I would see in this hack, but it may still be a bit lower end.

Abandon definitely needs to go.  Even in standard 1.3 I'd say it needs to go because it can easily make non-100% moves into a joke with a single item slot use, and no Br dependency.

Quote from: "philsov"
Because item is a single target, restorative skillset and having its only heal (neglecting special use elixirs) 30% is a bit... lackluster.  Having something do absolutely more, especially when battle skill/steal rear their ugly head, is welcome imo.  And 50% is too much, imo.  Turns AP into a poor man's damage split. I'll see if I can tinker with any of the Items, maybe I can turn x-potion into a neato ability (fire bomb!) instead :).


I wouldn't make offensive Items, personally.  That seems like its stepping on the toes of Oracle / Ninja, depending on what kind of offense the Item is doing (raw damage or status).  Giving it offense makes it very "all-in-one", which both steps on the toes of the two previous job abilities, and completely retcons a major part of the use White Magic has (damage in addition to healing).  That, and regular 1.3 already proves it's one of the best secondaries you can throw on since it can let you recover from just about any bad situation with some good CT manipulation.  And Chemists get Guns and innate Throw Item, so even they don't need their primary skillset more flexible.  I don't think that it needs random ways of having offensive capabilities.

So.  Maybe make Potion 30 or 40(?)%, Hi-Potion 70, and X-Potion 150.  40% makes Potion heal more than Hi-Potion and X-Potion on high-HP units (the ones the CPU will probably be using Auto Potion on the most), while making X-Potion better on the lower HP ones (who will probably be using Item or Magic to heal instead of the reaction command).  Hi-Potion's just kind of there for the mid-game, but this makes Auto Potion far more useful for the CPU and a bit harder for the player to just slap on all 5 units without any regard as to what they are to try and tank everything, due to the fact Potion and X-Potion can beat each other out on what they're healing depending.

I'd be in favor of nuking all the status-healing Items besides Remedy and Holy Water (they never get used anyway), but I have no clue what to put in their place.  Would you be able to use the ability slots nuking those frees up to make an Equip Robe as a separate ability?  They're useless, and unlike stuff like Blind, they can't be buffed without being made into Throw 2.0 abilities anyway, so if you can kill them and use their space to make some nifty new abilities (like Equip Robe), that'd seem like the best solution, imo.

Though I'm still not seeing the problem with everything having Shield access regardless.  Everything that can equip Shields now is melee, meaning they're the ones who'll probably have the best C-EV and W-EV, so the benefit the classes who can't equip Shields currently would gain is far less than classes who can already equip them, save for Thief and maybe Ninja.  But I don't see why a Ninja would use a Shield besides for the niche things like blocking Element X anyway.
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  • [October 12, 2009, 09:35:23 PM]
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« Reply #32 on: October 12, 2009, 09:35:23 PM »
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@ Potions: Bleh.. leave potions as they are now >_> They are ok.

I actually think AP is a broken reaction ability, in terms of human/AI discrepancy and its power.  Plus removing all potions from stock and only having x-pots is really... counter-intuitive.

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Speed Ruin requires them getting in range of me,

knight with move +1 gets in range.  3 movement, 3 range ability.  Slowed gunner, knight gets double turn, proceeds to hack and slash.

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Except that never happens unless you're outright negating something with an absorbing Shield, usually. Seems like a stupid waste of a Support Ability in general, especially when you want to make an Equip Robe.

I give all my mage-types equip shield through mid-game, until short charge becomes necessary.  And... elemental shields aren't all that hot because they also sport an elemental weakness.  Unless you're rocking fire shield + magic ring or ice shield + rubber shoes, it's a two-way street.  I learned this the hard way when the colliery engineer one-shot me with bolt1.

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I'd actually see this as another reason to allow universal shields

Everyone is -already- getting 10-20% evasion.  Giving them all 10-20 more (or even MORE) basically requires all melee to have concentrate.  

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guns guns guns just seems like a really easy way to cheese the game.

Possibly.  I can brew up a video sometime this week about that.

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Everything that can equip Shields now is melee, meaning they're the ones who'll probably have the best C-EV and W-EV,


remember what I said about assumptions?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by philsov »
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Sephirot24
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  • [October 12, 2009, 09:55:13 PM]
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« Reply #33 on: October 12, 2009, 09:55:13 PM »
I'm agains giving shields to every unit. Semi-forcing Concentrate on all melee units is bad... but maybe as bad as needing Short Charge as the game stands now...

Totally in favor of removing every status-healing items except Remedy and Holy Water. Obviously allowing Remedy to be bought earlier (IDK when it's available though...).

Quote from: "Phil"
I give all my mage-types equip shield through mid-game, until short charge becomes necessary.

I always do the same. That + Mantle + cheap Weapon Guard = very good early EV setup :) I told you we played in a similar style!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by Sephirot24 »
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RavenOfRazgriz [Posts: 3030]
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  • [October 12, 2009, 09:58:17 PM]
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« Reply #34 on: October 12, 2009, 09:58:17 PM »
Quote from: "philsov"
I actually think AP is a broken reaction ability, in terms of human/AI discrepancy and its power.  Plus removing all potions from stock and only having x-pots is really... counter-intuitive.

Agreed here.  It's not as broken late game, but definitely agree nonetheless.

Hamedo too, imo.

Quote from: "philsov"
knight with move +1 gets in range.  3 movement, 3 range ability.  Slowed gunner, knight gets double turn, proceeds to hack and slash.

I thought the idea was to get away from people always using Move +X?

Quote from: "philsov"
I give all my mage-types equip shield through mid-game, until short charge becomes necessary.  And... elemental shields aren't all that hot because they also sport an elemental weakness.  Unless you're rocking fire shield + magic ring or ice shield + rubber shoes, it's a two-way street.  I learned this the hard way when the colliery engineer one-shot me with bolt1.

Ice Shield has that big weakness, yes.  Flame Shield is weak to lolwater though, which doesn't appear often.

I've never used Equip Shield.  I found Magic Attack UP more useful and more in-the-way, most of the time.  Though early on you do need to get closer and Robes / Hats leave you a lot more fragile than they do later, so I suppose its a bit more useful then.

Quote from: "philsov"
Everyone is -already- getting 10-20% evasion.  Giving them all 10-20 more (or even MORE) basically requires all melee to have concentrate.

Hm.

I would again say lolAbandon, but you said you're (rightly) killing that pile of shit.  

Odd idea:  Allow Shields, and make the way C-EV is globalized apply also to Shields Physical Evasion and Weapon Guard?

That seems cool, as it makes side attacks worth something (as Weapon Guard currently covers side and front 100%, which kind of honestly doesn't make sense as it's harder to guard from the side than from the front), and makes universal Shields a potential option without the whole omgevasionstack issue (which late game I can see happening, now that I sit and think a bit on it).

Thoughts?  I really like that kind of idea, as I've never understood how Shields and Weapon Guard even logically can block the front and sides equally.

Quote from: "philsov"
Possibly.  I can brew up a video sometime this week about that.

Okay.

Quote from: "philsov"
remember what I said about assumptions?


Wow.  For some reason I remembered Rods and Sticks as having a lot less W-EV.  Meh.  I'm half right, mages aren't C-EV monsters like physical classes are.  P=
Sephirot24
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  • [October 12, 2009, 11:05:40 PM]
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« Reply #35 on: October 12, 2009, 11:05:40 PM »
Er... I reckon guns are still semi-rape with 6 range. How about make them avadable with Arrow Guard? Making arrow guard into "Projectile guard" or something like that... maybe even make it evade "Throw"
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by Sephirot24 »
Archael
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  • [October 12, 2009, 11:53:32 PM]
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« Reply #36 on: October 12, 2009, 11:53:32 PM »
Refute / Preach are awesome
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by Archael »
Asmo X [Posts: 1689]
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  • [October 13, 2009, 02:05:02 PM]
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« Reply #37 on: October 13, 2009, 02:05:02 PM »
Yeah to tell you the truth I was wondering about guns and longbows. Might want to drop the range on some of these weapons
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by Asmo X »
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MiKeMiTchi [Posts: 1947]
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  • [October 13, 2009, 02:42:46 PM]
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« Reply #38 on: October 13, 2009, 02:42:46 PM »
Wow. Quality posts. I have to read them one by one to understand them.

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Yeah to tell you the truth I was wondering about guns and longbows. Might want to drop the range on some of these weapons


Yeah, I think their ranged should be debuffed.

What about the Axes? I think they still need some buffing.

For the Mediator Skills,
I like the new ones, but give em some more usefulness, pleeease?

If only the BR\FA mod weren't permanent.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by MiKeMiTchi »
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philsov [Posts: 4598]
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  • [October 13, 2009, 03:32:13 PM]
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« Reply #39 on: October 13, 2009, 03:32:13 PM »
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I thought the idea was to get away from people always using Move +X?

ha, nah.  Were that the case I'd need a full row of ASM buffs to the other movements, or I'd simply remove the move+x's from the game.  What I'm trying to do is reduce both the relative movement possible (8 movement ninjas versus 3 movement monks, e.g.) and the absolute movement/range for all units/abilities.  The first is getting accomplished by the removal of move +3 and teleport with move +2 becoming more out of reach.  The latter is getting accomplished with an across the board slash to all movements and ranged abilities.

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Odd idea: make the way C-EV is globalized apply also to Shields Physical Evasion and Weapon Guard?

I'll throw it on the "if I can get someone else to do hack it" pile.  But shields for all is not going to happen.  If I do that then there's no point in weapon guard for all, as having both of these evasions present is simply too good unless I neuter the everliving crap out of shields, which I have no desire to do.

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Yeah to tell you the truth I was wondering about guns and longbows. Might want to drop the range on some of these weapons

guns to 6 and bows to 4 sound good?

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What about the Axes? I think they still need some buffing.

They're getting a new formula for much steadier but still slightly random damage.  

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For the Mediator Skills,
I like the new ones, but give em some more usefulness, pleeease?

If only the BR\FA mod weren't permanent.


It doesn't have to be permanent.  That's the point of this poll.  We can re-introduce the old skills (maybe alter them to +/- 5 Br/Fa instead of 5 raisings and 20 lowerings) since they'll last only in that battle, but the catch is I don't think there's enough free ability space to re-introduce those old skills AND keep the new ones.  But I'll see what I can do about talk skill in general... atm negotiate and death sentence aren't seeing much use.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by philsov »
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