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Concepts and Balance Guru, Resident Violist
Zaen [Posts: 403]
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  • [September 20, 2009, 11:07:29 PM]
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« Reply #20 on: September 20, 2009, 11:07:29 PM »
I like that idea. Also, the Tonberry could just have very high HP, like 600-999 max, or it could just be ??? and a boss type enemy.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by Zaen »
"Oh, God!! The Hokuten!!" ~Guard, Sand Rat Cellar
Wasabi [Posts: 187]
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  • [September 20, 2009, 11:38:10 PM]
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« Reply #21 on: September 20, 2009, 11:38:10 PM »
I've only skimmed at the other lists, but I'll make a point on what piqued my interest the most. For Behemoths and Meteor/Meteorain, I was thinking of the random hit formula {1...10, maybe?}, high damage, AOE of 2 on caster (auto), and only accessible under critical status. I'm currently editing my patch with Cloud's "Limit" utilizing Meteorain with the random hit formula with a low MA multiplier, so why not for Behemoths in Mercernaries but with far more deadly appeal? :D
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by Wasabi »
LastingDawn [Posts: 3452]
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  • [September 21, 2009, 12:31:21 AM]
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« Reply #22 on: September 21, 2009, 12:31:21 AM »
Hmm, well there's no way to have a skill that the enemy will use only when critical, but 10 times sounds a bit... much, what 1.3 did was give Behemoth Meteorain and 1-3 times, but I don't want to use that directly. Now I like that idea of knocking them down to 1 HP, that's pretty interesting. Also yes, I was just thinking that... Tonberries will have pathetic HP growth (x10 from the "???") and that should keep them below 999 at least at the start. Oh I thought that was in reference to Stab Up, it wouldn't be 100% mind you, it would be 60% at most.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by LastingDawn »
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Wasabi [Posts: 187]
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  • [September 21, 2009, 12:36:22 AM]
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« Reply #23 on: September 21, 2009, 12:36:22 AM »
Something in me feels that Bonesnatches should have the Invoker's Shock from the Cuar selection of abilities, and that Cuar's should have an ability that focuses on their attack and speed attributes. Maybe something like Scream from 1.3, but replacing Blind for another positive attribute (like, Berserk/Haste/Protect)?

And Ahriman's Doom/Haste ftw!!! You HAVE to put that in, it's too ingenious! :P

As for Iron Giant... Hmm, can Mighty Guard be implemented? Maybe a swordskill could be used to fill the gap, like Crush Punch but cancels charging? I suppose if they were to have a powerful spell, Flare/Shadowflare could be used. I'm also in the dark with this monster, but it helps to look for abilities that Iron Giants used in other FFs (other than Mighty Guard) to critique a better/unique skillset.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by Wasabi »
LastingDawn [Posts: 3452]
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  • [September 21, 2009, 12:46:02 AM]
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« Reply #24 on: September 21, 2009, 12:46:02 AM »
Might Guard can be implemented in a way... M Barrier in a 5 Panel and 2 Range, for the cost of 50 MP would sound fitting. I'm not so fond of Sworskills for the Iron Giant which... well doesn't have a sword. I couldn't see them being a main spellcaster, since they are a rather giant lumbering behemoth, hehe. Also the Ahriman will probably get... what was that skill called? I can't recall, I'm sure someone will be able to think of it.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by LastingDawn »
"Moment's anger can revert to joy,
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A nation destroyed cannot be restored,
the dead brought back to life."

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Wasabi [Posts: 187]
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  • [September 21, 2009, 12:46:18 AM]
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« Reply #25 on: September 21, 2009, 12:46:18 AM »
Oh, sorry LD, I was still talking about Tonberries when I mistakenly stated "Stab" for "Knife." ._.;;

As for the case of Behemoths, 10 might be a bit much yes. I was referencing to a variation of Reis'/Dragons' Holy Breath technique, but with the AOE like Draw Out in which it won't hit the caster. So, this variation of Meteor/Meteorain will inflict random hits (meaning, hit or miss) of high damage around the caster in an AOE of 2. I'm unsure if the AI would abuse a concept like this, but it would be effective for an "offense makes a better defense" type of strategy for Behemoths in a large melee setting of different groups.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by Wasabi »
LastingDawn [Posts: 3452]
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  • [September 21, 2009, 12:48:10 AM]
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« Reply #26 on: September 21, 2009, 12:48:10 AM »
Well the AI actually strays away from moves that it's marked "Random Hits" but the problem with large parts of that, is that Random Fire will only make it so it hits only 1 square in the large 2 AoE.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by LastingDawn »
"Moment's anger can revert to joy,
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A nation destroyed cannot be restored,
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Wasabi [Posts: 187]
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  • [September 21, 2009, 12:49:25 AM]
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« Reply #27 on: September 21, 2009, 12:49:25 AM »
O_O

Ahrimans... ROULETTE???

Low hit rate of casting instant KO, mayhaps?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by Wasabi »
LastingDawn [Posts: 3452]
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  • [September 21, 2009, 12:50:56 AM]
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« Reply #28 on: September 21, 2009, 12:50:56 AM »
Roulette is already a skill in Mercenaries, it belongs to the Gambler and can cast Field Wide Slow/Haste on each individual character.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by LastingDawn »
"Moment's anger can revert to joy,
sadness can be turned to delight.
A nation destroyed cannot be restored,
the dead brought back to life."

Art of War

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Zaen [Posts: 403]
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  • [September 21, 2009, 01:51:31 AM]
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« Reply #29 on: September 21, 2009, 01:51:31 AM »
People were talking about Tonberry sometime before in IRC... 2 Move, Medium speed. Knife - 100%, Everyone's Grudge - Max-Cur HP, 2 range. I think it's possible to balance out.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by Zaen »
"Oh, God!! The Hokuten!!" ~Guard, Sand Rat Cellar
SilvasRuin [Posts: 1405]
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  • [September 21, 2009, 03:04:15 AM]
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« Reply #30 on: September 21, 2009, 03:04:15 AM »
Quote
Hmm, Heave is similar to Stab Up, isn't it? It just seems like Stab Up with a different name... having Flare as a monster only ability is pretty interesting and will be considered. Though what game is Parting Gift from?
I think Heave is a more traditional name for the attack.  FFIII had Behemoth Kings use Meteor when they are low on health.  Behemoth Kings in V would counter any spell with Meteor.  In FFVI, Great Behemoths spam Meteor.  Also in FFVI, a dark colored Behemoth looking monster called Intangir will cast Meteor on whoever kills it.  In FFVI Advance, Dark Behemoths cast either Meteor or Ultima upon their death.  In FFVII, Behemoth Kings could cast Flare and Comet2, which is essentially a version of Meteo the player CAN cast.  In FFVIII, Behemoths can cast Flare, Tornado, Thundaga, and Meteor.  Catoblepas from the same game can also cast Thundaga and Meteor.  In FFIX, Behemoths counter most attacks with Meteor.  In FFX, Behemoth Kings will use Meteor upon their deaths, and Catoblepas would use Ultima upon its death.

So it has changed from game to game, but Behemoths have a tradition of either spamming, countering, or final attacking Meteor.  The concept for "Parting Gift" (the name is my own facetious idea) is meant to mimic a Behemoth casting Meteor when it dies.  Using the Self-Destruct formula should get the AI to emulate it close enough.


Eschaton pretty much has the same meaning as Divine Ultima also, and it is less of a mouthful.  To quote the FF wiki:  "The word Eschaton is related to Eschatology, a branch of theology which describes either a particular model of the end of the world or the study of such models, so it is a good replacement word for the more common 'Complete Ultima.'"

Quote
Silence no longer exists, it's now Addle (horribly broken but... I'm doing my best to fix that)
Is it possible to just set all abilities to be unavailable when Silence is applied?  Or is that what you attempted and isn't working...?

If you aren't going to have elemental dragons, then FFTA2 would likely be a good reference as they seem to branch away from the traditional stuff a bit.  FFXII also doesn't seem to give them elemental attributes, so maybe I can get some ideas of off that too.  I would personally prefer there being a wide variety of dragons, but I understand that the way you have things arranged makes the options limited.  (I'm a dragon fanatic.)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by SilvasRuin »
Wasabi [Posts: 187]
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  • [September 21, 2009, 04:00:21 AM]
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« Reply #31 on: September 21, 2009, 04:00:21 AM »
Mmm... yeah, "Parting Gift" with the self-destruct formula would force the AI to use it exclusively when it is in critical status. With a ??? HP count, this would make it pretty gruesome as well (as it should). Maybe add an element to the skill that the Behemoth can negate it with so that it doesn't immediately KO itself, because of the formula (like Holy, if there's no available equipment that would cancel/absorb that element)?

I suppose my suggestion for making it random was just a bit out there, since it can be spammed like crazy without attaining critical status. Maybe nerfing the MA can solve this, but the Meteorain visual effect might become an eyesore I think? :(
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by Wasabi »
SilvasRuin [Posts: 1405]
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  • [September 21, 2009, 06:08:31 AM]
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« Reply #32 on: September 21, 2009, 06:08:31 AM »
The Self-Destruct formula gives a status 100% to the caster, in the case of the vanilla Bomb skill, Death.  Element has nothing to do with it.  If it is to emulate the dying attacks of other Behemoths of the series, then it needs to inflict Death upon itself.  But... if it didn't inflict a status upon itself, then it would spam it increasingly often the weaker it gets.  While that's an interesting concept, I'm far more inclined to go with the final vengeance attack idea, not because I suggested it but because it is more traditional and, in my opinion, more fun.

Since it is likely to have an AoE regardless, giving it the ??? status might not be a good idea.  Once anything with that kind of attack accumulates 999 damage, it winds up having an attack that will completely murder any player-character it hits.  Combined with an AoE, that is exceedingly vicious.

That does give me an idea for a Master Tonberry though.  Make it half all elements that have attacks, have innate Def Up and MDef Up and innate Protect and Shell, low speed, and here's the gimmick:  Give it relatively low HP and change Karma to Everyone's Grudge.  Make it hit all enemies.  The idea there is that all the defensive boosts should manage to keep it alive a long time, like normal Tonberries' high hp, but Everyone's Grudge would still be survivable despite hitting all your characters regardless of distance.  What's the actual math for Def Up and MDef up again?  I don't know how much HP to expect Rad and Ramza to be capable of or how much HP Gafgarion would be expected to have, but 500 max HP should make it survive longer than a normal Tonberry that has 1000 max HP, and if Mercenaries' HP isn't geared to be low, Everyone's Grudge should be survivable.  If the HP is meant to be low, then Master Tonberries could be made less durable than normal Tonberries in exchange for the boosts Everyone's Grudge gets compared to Karma.

Here's my stab at a list of abilities for dragons to have:
Fireball - Single target, ranged.
Ice Orb - Single target, ranged.
Lightning - Single target, ranged.
Fire Breath - Linear attack, 2-3 range.
Ice Breath - Linear attack, 2-3 range.
Thunder Breath - Linear attack, 2-3 range.
White Breath - Linear attack, 2-3 range, non-elemental, chance of inflicting Stop.
Mighty Guard - Shell, Protect, Haste
Restore - Would All-or-nothing Cancel Critical make it so that it could only use this ability when it is in Critical?  Make it cure all negative status and fully heal it, but flag it for random use so there is only a chance it will save itself with this.

Mighty Guard could have a different name if something different with that name is used on something else.  Greater Barrier, or maybe just Barrier could work.  This set up would make Dragons quite versatile and dangerous, but they would mainly be magical attackers that strike single targets, making them more manageable.  They should have a physical attack of some sort, but at least one physical attack was already suggested and it seems alright to me.  Alternatively, they could be given a venomous bite so that they could have a physical attack with some nice debuffs to fall back on.

My earlier Behemoth suggestion makes them pretty much specialize at striking one enemy at a time with whatever is likely to hurt more between melee and magic, which in turn makes it require a team effort to take down, which in turn makes caution all that more important if they are given Parting Gift.  So basically Behemoths have a chance of wiping you out if you aren't prepared for that final attack, Dragons are very formidable for just not wanting to die on top of being strong and versatile, and Tonberries would be just plain hard to kill and become increasingly deadly as the fight goes on.  Apparently I really like giving monsters some sort of trump card...
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by SilvasRuin »
Dormin Jake [Posts: 409]
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  • [September 21, 2009, 06:43:48 AM]
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« Reply #33 on: September 21, 2009, 06:43:48 AM »
Especially glad ye liked my Goblin and Bone Snatch, LD.  Ashamed I missed Silence!  I managed to catch myself on all its other occurrences, but I didn't filter the spell itself.  FAIL.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by Dormin Jake »
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Skip Sandwich [Posts: 994]
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  • [September 21, 2009, 01:04:12 PM]
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« Reply #34 on: September 21, 2009, 01:04:12 PM »
Quote from: "SilvasRuin"
The Self-Destruct formula gives a status 100% to the caster, in the case of the vanilla Bomb skill, Death.  


actually, the self-destruct formula simply adds status to all targets at 100% chance rate, and will always include the caster in the AoE (however, it is hardcoded to deal 100% of max hp damage to the caster as well, so the status to caster doesn't really matter.)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by Skip Sandwich »
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Eternal [Posts: 3073]
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  • [September 21, 2009, 05:11:49 PM]
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« Reply #35 on: September 21, 2009, 05:11:49 PM »
LD, could we use Calculator skills for the monsters?

I was thinking Ahriman could have like Lv. 5 Death, or Trents could have Lv. 3 Sleep or something. I realize those spells aren't necessarily in Mercs, but the Lv. X spells could be a nice little nod to other FF's. Perhaps we could nerf them by giving them an MP Cost/CT?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by Eternal248 »
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    • [September 21, 2009, 05:14:04 PM]
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    « Reply #36 on: September 21, 2009, 05:14:04 PM »
    Calculator...yeah. I think that's great. ^^
    « Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by jimmyjw88 »
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    SilvasRuin [Posts: 1405]
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    • [September 21, 2009, 05:30:15 PM]
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    « Reply #37 on: September 21, 2009, 05:30:15 PM »
    Huh...  That is a creative way to give them those classic abilities.
    « Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by SilvasRuin »
    Sephirot24
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    • [September 21, 2009, 06:14:31 PM]
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    « Reply #38 on: September 21, 2009, 06:14:31 PM »
    Woo! I liked Lvl 5 / 4 / 3 abilities back then :)
    You could update the 1st post later so that we can see what's still missing and help with it.
    « Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by Sephirot24 »
    LastingDawn [Posts: 3452]
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    • [September 21, 2009, 07:47:49 PM]
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    « Reply #39 on: September 21, 2009, 07:47:49 PM »
    Quote from: "SilvasRuin"
    Quote
    Hmm, Heave is similar to Stab Up, isn't it? It just seems like Stab Up with a different name... having Flare as a monster only ability is pretty interesting and will be considered. Though what game is Parting Gift from?
    I think Heave is a more traditional name for the attack.  FFIII had Behemoth Kings use Meteor when they are low on health.  Behemoth Kings in V would counter any spell with Meteor.  In FFVI, Great Behemoths spam Meteor.  Also in FFVI, a dark colored Behemoth looking monster called Intangir will cast Meteor on whoever kills it.  In FFVI Advance, Dark Behemoths cast either Meteor or Ultima upon their death.  In FFVII, Behemoth Kings could cast Flare and Comet2, which is essentially a version of Meteo the player CAN cast.  In FFVIII, Behemoths can cast Flare, Tornado, Thundaga, and Meteor.  Catoblepas from the same game can also cast Thundaga and Meteor.  In FFIX, Behemoths counter most attacks with Meteor.  In FFX, Behemoth Kings will use Meteor upon their deaths, and Catoblepas would use Ultima upon its death.

    So it has changed from game to game, but Behemoths have a tradition of either spamming, countering, or final attacking Meteor.  The concept for "Parting Gift" (the name is my own facetious idea) is meant to mimic a Behemoth casting Meteor when it dies.  Using the Self-Destruct formula should get the AI to emulate it close enough.

    An interesting history on Behemoth, what should the status be that it uses when the Meteor does strike?


    Quote
    Eschaton pretty much has the same meaning as Divine Ultima also, and it is less of a mouthful.  To quote the FF wiki:  "The word Eschaton is related to Eschatology, a branch of theology which describes either a particular model of the end of the world or the study of such models, so it is a good replacement word for the more common 'Complete Ultima.'"

    Quote
    Silence no longer exists, it's now Addle (horribly broken but... I'm doing my best to fix that)
    Is it possible to just set all abilities to be unavailable when Silence is applied?  Or is that what you attempted and isn't working...?

    If you aren't going to have elemental dragons, then FFTA2 would likely be a good reference as they seem to branch away from the traditional stuff a bit.  FFXII also doesn't seem to give them elemental attributes, so maybe I can get some ideas of off that too.  I would personally prefer there being a wide variety of dragons, but I understand that the way you have things arranged makes the options limited.  (I'm a dragon fanatic.)

    Well that's exactly what I did, it works great, the only problem is it works Too well, Silence never wears off normally, and with only two people it's doubtful that you'll be carrying the few skillsets which alleviate it, I would ideally like to give it a CT. Zodiac and I have a few plans in the mix to do that... but... only time will tell. Oh are the dragons in FFTA2 a bit more unique? That could be a good point of reference.

    Quote from: "Wasabi"
    Mmm... yeah, "Parting Gift" with the self-destruct formula would force the AI to use it exclusively when it is in critical status. With a ??? HP count, this would make it pretty gruesome as well (as it should). Maybe add an element to the skill that the Behemoth can negate it with so that it doesn't immediately KO itself, because of the formula (like Holy, if there's no available equipment that would cancel/absorb that element)?

    I suppose my suggestion for making it random was just a bit out there, since it can be spammed like crazy without attaining critical status. Maybe nerfing the MA can solve this, but the Meteorain visual effect might become an eyesore I think? :(

    You guessed it, that giant 2 sized AoE, everything in it (in the enormous 16 square range) is only a single chance that it can hit any of the 16 squares, it's very impractical.


    Quote from: "SilvasRuin"
    The Self-Destruct formula gives a status 100% to the caster, in the case of the vanilla Bomb skill, Death.  Element has nothing to do with it.  If it is to emulate the dying attacks of other Behemoths of the series, then it needs to inflict Death upon itself.  But... if it didn't inflict a status upon itself, then it would spam it increasingly often the weaker it gets.  While that's an interesting concept, I'm far more inclined to go with the final vengeance attack idea, not because I suggested it but because it is more traditional and, in my opinion, more fun.

    This is actully a mistake on Wasabi's part, the status caused by the Self Destruct is Oil, not Death, it's referring to the status of thos affected by it (similarly the Doom Archer skill of the Archer uses the same formula, except it causes confusion)

    Quote
    Since it is likely to have an AoE regardless, giving it the ??? status might not be a good idea.  Once anything with that kind of attack accumulates 999 damage, it winds up having an attack that will completely murder any player-character it hits.  Combined with an AoE, that is exceedingly vicious.

    That does give me an idea for a Master Tonberry though.  Make it half all elements that have attacks, have innate Def Up and MDef Up and innate Protect and Shell, low speed, and here's the gimmick:  Give it relatively low HP and change Karma to Everyone's Grudge.  Make it hit all enemies.  The idea there is that all the defensive boosts should manage to keep it alive a long time, like normal Tonberries' high hp, but Everyone's Grudge would still be survivable despite hitting all your characters regardless of distance.  What's the actual math for Def Up and MDef up again?  I don't know how much HP to expect Rad and Ramza to be capable of or how much HP Gafgarion would be expected to have, but 500 max HP should make it survive longer than a normal Tonberry that has 1000 max HP, and if Mercenaries' HP isn't geared to be low, Everyone's Grudge should be survivable.  If the HP is meant to be low, then Master Tonberries could be made less durable than normal Tonberries in exchange for the boosts Everyone's Grudge gets compared to Karma.

    Very, very nice idea! I love this. It's highly creative and is an incredibly dangerous fight.
    Quote
    Here's my stab at a list of abilities for dragons to have:
    Fireball - Single target, ranged.
    Ice Orb - Single target, ranged.
    Lightning - Single target, ranged.
    Fire Breath - Linear attack, 2-3 range.
    Ice Breath - Linear attack, 2-3 range.
    Thunder Breath - Linear attack, 2-3 range.
    White Breath - Linear attack, 2-3 range, non-elemental, chance of inflicting Stop.
    Mighty Guard - Shell, Protect, Haste
    Restore - Would All-or-nothing Cancel Critical make it so that it could only use this ability when it is in Critical?  Make it cure all negative status and fully heal it, but flag it for random use so there is only a chance it will save itself with this.

    Mighty Guard could have a different name if something different with that name is used on something else.  Greater Barrier, or maybe just Barrier could work.  This set up would make Dragons quite versatile and dangerous, but they would mainly be magical attackers that strike single targets, making them more manageable.  They should have a physical attack of some sort, but at least one physical attack was already suggested and it seems alright to me.  Alternatively, they could be given a venomous bite so that they could have a physical attack with some nice debuffs to fall back on.

    Too much... far too much, I still have a limit on the skills I can use, I can give them Dragon Breath, which is also a skill of the Dragoon, I personally prefer the Two panel Tail Swing, Dormin thought up, as it gives them some manner of physical attack as well, I don't want to give them all manner of attack and defense, Restore is a nice idea though, I'll take that into consideration.

    Quote
    My earlier Behemoth suggestion makes them pretty much specialize at striking one enemy at a time with whatever is likely to hurt more between melee and magic, which in turn makes it require a team effort to take down, which in turn makes caution all that more important if they are given Parting Gift.  So basically Behemoths have a chance of wiping you out if you aren't prepared for that final attack, Dragons are very formidable for just not wanting to die on top of being strong and versatile, and Tonberries would be just plain hard to kill and become increasingly deadly as the fight goes on.  Apparently I really like giving monsters some sort of trump card...

    With only control over two people's setup, I don't like the thought of one always carrying Hymns just to get through a battle, Trump cards are nice, but their should be a limit.

    Quote from: "Eternal248"
    LD, could we use Calculator skills for the monsters?

    I was thinking Ahriman could have like Lv. 5 Death, or Trents could have Lv. 3 Sleep or something. I realize those spells aren't necessarily in Mercs, but the Lv. X spells could be a nice little nod to other FF's. Perhaps we could nerf them by giving them an MP Cost/CT?

    We have discussed this in length on IRC and thanks to Neo-Kamek we see that it is truly a possibility, I will get to that in due time.



    EDIT:
    Quote from: "Sephirot24"
    Woo! I liked Lvl 5 / 4 / 3 abilities back then :)
    You could update the 1st post later so that we can see what's still missing and help with it.



    Lamia is a nice creature... and there is the FFTA one directly ported from FFTA in the Japanese Sprites, if someone wants to take a stab at making it look decent, please, be my guest. It would  be a nice addition.
    « Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by LastingDawn »
    "Moment's anger can revert to joy,
    sadness can be turned to delight.
    A nation destroyed cannot be restored,
    the dead brought back to life."

    Art of War

    Beta & Gretchen Forever!!!!
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