Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Pages: [1] 2 3 ... 5
LastingDawn [Posts: 3452]
  • View Profile
  • share
  • [December 08, 2008, 11:36:29 PM]
Monk Rehaul Job Discussion (Rad/Ramza Skillset Updated!)
« on: December 08, 2008, 11:36:29 PM »
Monks,  Master's of internal energy.

August 22nd, 2010

The Monk's in Mercenaries are... quite varied depending on certain people's thoughts. They have lost Martial Arts (probably only being to be given to a few bosses) but have gained Two Swords innate and the ability to equip Claws (Hello Yang!) this will make their class new and fresh, at least that's the plan, here's the nearly finalized Skillset.

Thanks goes to Philsov and Mav (and many others whose names I can't recall for the original skill ideas)for these wonderful skills!


Quote
Monk - Master of Internal Energy, also the starting point for all physical-ish jobs.  If you wanna know the basics, you start with yourself.  

Iconic skills:
Searing Salvation - clears the soul of impurities with holy fire.  Deals 15% HP damage, able to target self and allies.  (Self-only cleanse is worthless for most of the big ones, we need function here)
Chakra - melee-range, PA-based spirit exhertion damage!
(Secret Skill) - I don't think Demi Fist is fitting for the class, but we'll go back to these later.

Ramza:
Golden Hand - 5 range linear, instant, no MP - cancels Charging and Performing
Ogre Run - 2 range linear, instant, no MP - Earth ele damage + haste cancel proc.
Wave Fist - 2 range, single target.  Like the old one, only shorter range.
Pressure Point - PA*X (or MA*X?) damage with a 25% chance to Don't Act target.  1 range, 1-3CTR.
Meditate - Self-only regen, 100%.
Grid - Self only defend + protect

Rad:
Mage Bane Fist - melee range, small charge time, no MP - 25% MP damage
Turning Gust - self-AoE, instant, no MP.  - no ele damage + Float/Regen/Faith cancel proc.
Consuming Fist - PA-based damage with recoil.  2 range, 1 AoE.
Radiant Claw - 4 range, single target, CT, MP - artillery shot
Tranquility - Enemy-only.  Dispells all status effects on the user.  PA+X% success rate.
Brace - Self only defend + shell

~

Quote
Monk's Unique Weaponry, Claws[/size]

CLAWS:              [(PA / 2) * PA ]  
                   Range 1v2 (from below) / 1v3 (from above)
                   YES Two Swords
                   NO Two Hands
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
## NAME               WP  Ev  COST   E.LV  EFFECTS
-- --------------     --  --  -----  ----  --------------------------------------
30 Fire Claw          0   00  1500   10   PA + 1, Half: Fire, Fire Elemental

31 Bone Claw          0   20  4000   16   Always: Undead, Add: Undead, Strengthen: Dark, Dark Elemental

32 Climbing Claw      0   25  6500   22   MA + 1, Jump + 3 Add: Slow, Ice Elemental

73 *6 Survivor        0   00  10000  32   Immune: Crystal, Treasure

74 *6 White Fang      0   00  60000  44   100% Cancel: All Status Ailments

5D *8 Fabul's Finest  0   10  10    (50)  Sp + 1, Initial: Haste, Strengthen Lightning, Lightning Elemental, Add: Confusion
-------

« Last Edit: August 19, 2009, 02:48:46 PM by LastingDawn »
"Moment's anger can revert to joy,
sadness can be turned to delight.
A nation destroyed cannot be restored,
the dead brought back to life."

Art of War

Beta & Gretchen Forever!!!!
boomkick
  • share
  • [December 08, 2008, 11:57:03 PM]
(No subject)
« Reply #1 on: December 08, 2008, 11:57:03 PM »
Let him use staves (if you still have them) and maybe make them a martial artist (Not fists, weapons and thats his name, Martial Artist) (sad name... i know).
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by boomkick »
Unreliable as a Mime.
The Damned [Posts: 2168]
  • View Profile
  • share
  • [December 09, 2008, 12:03:48 AM]
(No subject)
« Reply #2 on: December 09, 2008, 12:03:48 AM »
I think you mean Sticks. Staves are Priest's staff weapons.

Uh...yeah, I'll try and think about this while at work, but like you said, FFT Monk is horribly broken which is why I made him enemy-only.

I'm assuming you want them to stay martial artist-esque like how boomkick said, right?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by The Damned »
"Sorrow cannot be abolished. It is meaningless to try." - FFX's Yunalesca

"Good and evil are relative, but being a dick cannot be allowed." - Oglaf's Thaumaturge in "The Abyss"

"Well, see, the real magic isn't believing in yourself. The real magic is manipulating people by telling them to believe in themselves. The more you believe, the less you check facts."  - Oglaf's Vanka in "Conviction"
Cheetah [Posts: 3656]
  • View Profile
  • share
  • [December 09, 2008, 12:08:58 AM]
(No subject)
« Reply #3 on: December 09, 2008, 12:08:58 AM »
How are they horrible broken exactly?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by Cheetah »
Current Projects:
LastingDawn [Posts: 3452]
  • View Profile
  • share
  • [December 09, 2008, 12:16:47 AM]
(No subject)
« Reply #4 on: December 09, 2008, 12:16:47 AM »
They have a skillset which emphasizes Everything, Healing, Removing Status, Recovering MP! Long Range physical attacks, and multi hit techniques, all at the cost of... 0 MP. That's what I would call broken, anyhow
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by LastingDawn »
"Moment's anger can revert to joy,
sadness can be turned to delight.
A nation destroyed cannot be restored,
the dead brought back to life."

Art of War

Beta & Gretchen Forever!!!!
boomkick
  • share
  • [December 09, 2008, 12:32:25 AM]
(No subject)
« Reply #5 on: December 09, 2008, 12:32:25 AM »
Yup i meant sticks, srry about that.

They area meant to be complete physical fighters, except for the occasional magic stick (like the Monkey King in Chinese mythology).
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by boomkick »
LastingDawn [Posts: 3452]
  • View Profile
  • share
  • [December 09, 2008, 12:35:57 AM]
(No subject)
« Reply #6 on: December 09, 2008, 12:35:57 AM »
Sticks are based on MA, and we already have enough PA-MA, fighters around. therefore it probably wouldn't be too useful for there to be another.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by LastingDawn »
"Moment's anger can revert to joy,
sadness can be turned to delight.
A nation destroyed cannot be restored,
the dead brought back to life."

Art of War

Beta & Gretchen Forever!!!!
Cheetah [Posts: 3656]
  • View Profile
  • share
  • [December 09, 2008, 02:26:57 AM]
(No subject)
« Reply #7 on: December 09, 2008, 02:26:57 AM »
Okay that is what I thought on the monk. I wouldn't recommend making many changes to them till you see how they stack up against all the new jobs you are introducing. Though if you want to completely rework the role of the class I guess that would be something different.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by Cheetah »
Current Projects:
DarthPaul [Posts: 5381]
  • View Profile
  • share
  • [December 09, 2008, 02:40:04 AM]
(No subject)
« Reply #8 on: December 09, 2008, 02:40:04 AM »
Uh the damned have you ever heard of a "quarter staff" not to argue but that is a monk/ martial artist type weapon not priestly but anyway maybe just putting in mp costs would even out the whole brokenness of the class.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by darthpaul »
Oh pitiful shadow lost in the darkness, bringing torment and pain to others. Oh damned soul wallowing in your sin, perhaps...it is time to die
Disco_Peach
  • share
  • [December 09, 2008, 03:17:21 AM]
(No subject)
« Reply #9 on: December 09, 2008, 03:17:21 AM »
Yeah Monks were too uber boken. That's why I toned them down in my hack. Merely gave them a couple of strategic moves. I also let them keep a revival spell, just to spice them up a bit. My "Monk" class (Fighter) is actually a Lv2 job class along with the Knight. That's how much I toned it down. I say give yours simple spells that are always useful no matter the level they're in or the situation they're in.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by Disco_Peach »
Unreliable as a Mime.
The Damned [Posts: 2168]
  • View Profile
  • share
  • [December 09, 2008, 06:50:40 AM]
(No subject)
« Reply #10 on: December 09, 2008, 06:50:40 AM »
Quote from: "darthpaul"
Uh the damned have you ever heard of a "quarter staff" not to argue but that is a monk/ martial artist type weapon not priestly.


Yes, darthpaul, I know what a quarter staff is. I wasn't saying that Monks can't use Bo Staffs, I was saying that in-game Staves are more like walking canes.

Anyway, I did some thinking while I had to freaking walk to my home from work again and I had an idea that was somewhat triggered by the Cantor thread before this: What if you combined Monks and Dancers (since Dancers also seem to get nuked in everyone else's patch)?

Now now, here me out. I'm not saying give the Monks more range since that's the one thing they don't have. Earth Slash certainly needs to go and stay gone, whether it's evadable or not, as do Revive, Stigma Magic, and maybe Chakra.

What I mean is a thematic combination of the two. Whereas Cantors had Hymns that focused on helping others, Monks (who may well need a name change) would focus on themselves through Body Control [note: this is just what I'm generally calling the abilities I'm going to now suggest; I am not suggesting, however, that this would be the actual skill set name].

A large part of their techniques would focus on themselves, such as ridding themselves of status and such--I'm weary of stat-boosts, but perhaps you could make it work:


  • Stretch: Cancel Don't Move on self and heal for a miniscule bit of HP. (like 1%.)
  • Detoxify: A long CT move that attempts to clear one's body of impurities such as Poison, Blindness, Confusion and even Undeath.*
  • Meditate: Attempts to find Enlightment through Secular or Religous means. (Read: Randomly attempts to add Faith or Innocent.)**
  • Exceed: Gain Haste at the cost of damage to self. (Note: I'm trying to think of what formula besides Death would be useful for this since otherwise you could just turn yourself Undead and whore this.)


 Among those would remain some of the lesser used Monk skills such as Secret Fist, Wave Fist (well, okay, that's well-used and one needs to be nerfed), Repeating Fist and maybe even Spin Fist (haha...no); hell, maybe you could even have a really nerfed Chakra that applied only to the self, especially since Detoxify is basically a lesser Stigma Magic. (Way lesser, but still a lesser version.) I guess even more skills could be gleaned from whatever type of equipment you had, if any.***


* Note: This is not meant to be an in-game description, none of these are.
** No, I don't like this one, but I figured I would post the ones that weren't extremely repetitive.
*** For the record, I think part of the "brokenness" is the support skill "Martial Arts" in and of itself, so I'm curious as to how you are going to tackle that.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by The Damned »
"Sorrow cannot be abolished. It is meaningless to try." - FFX's Yunalesca

"Good and evil are relative, but being a dick cannot be allowed." - Oglaf's Thaumaturge in "The Abyss"

"Well, see, the real magic isn't believing in yourself. The real magic is manipulating people by telling them to believe in themselves. The more you believe, the less you check facts."  - Oglaf's Vanka in "Conviction"
boomkick
  • share
  • [December 09, 2008, 02:54:57 PM]
(No subject)
« Reply #11 on: December 09, 2008, 02:54:57 PM »
Hmm... we already have a healer, and that is the cantor. I was thinking that the new monk should not have any sort of healing capability (chakra, stigma, and the like).

i wanted him to focus on physical attacks and, if you read my post before, based of the Monkey King in chinese mythology where his weapon is the source of all of most of his strength.

The point is that the new class would have something like this is skills.

Long stick- I dont know the official name, but basically this skill enables his stick to grow longer (pun not intended) and hit targets farther.
Furious Blows- Like repeating fist, both in looks and damage wise.
Stun Blow- Deals meager damage while inflicting either Don't Ace, or Don't Move.
Spiritual Frenzy- Reduces his own Hp by half and goes Berserk.

Something like that
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by boomkick »
DarthPaul [Posts: 5381]
  • View Profile
  • share
  • [December 09, 2008, 03:48:02 PM]
(No subject)
« Reply #12 on: December 09, 2008, 03:48:02 PM »
Quote from: "The Damned"
Yes, darthpaul, I know what a quarter staff is. I wasn't saying that Monks can't use Bo Staffs, I was saying that in-game Staves are more like walking canes.




Meh I took what you said the wrong way then.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by darthpaul »
Oh pitiful shadow lost in the darkness, bringing torment and pain to others. Oh damned soul wallowing in your sin, perhaps...it is time to die
Archael
  • share
  • [December 09, 2008, 03:51:03 PM]
(No subject)
« Reply #13 on: December 09, 2008, 03:51:03 PM »
Staff discussion needs to die folks. Give these guys sticks. Sticks look like battle rods, like The Damned said. I mean, that's what they are.

Get rid of Martial Arts.

BOF3 Relevance Time. Pick any you like & modify. (MP Costs on these)

1) Disembowel - Fatal Blow. (Needs a flashy animation.) Melee Range, super inaccurate, ~ PA+10% innacurate. Vertical 0, Evadeable, HP = 1.

2) Kyrie - Destroys Undead.

3) Mighty Chop - Attack vs one. Ignores defense. (Knockback type damage like Worker 8, ignores Protect, DEF UP, etc.)

4) Flying Kick - Damage based on Speed. (Jump animation, lands immediately unlike dragoons', way shorter range.)

5) Meditation - Persevering, interruptable, heals self HP 33% per round. (Only healing move they're gonna get.)

6) Sacrifice - Basically a single target Self-Destruct. Shock damage (Caster MaxHP - Caster CurHP) to target, caster dies. Can Miss.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by Archael »
Zuka [Posts: 133]
  • View Profile
  • http://shattered-angel.co.nr
  • share
  • [December 09, 2008, 07:08:21 PM]
(No subject)
« Reply #14 on: December 09, 2008, 07:08:21 PM »
Quote from: "LastingDawn"
They have a skillset which emphasizes Everything, Healing, Removing Status, Recovering MP! Long Range physical attacks, and multi hit techniques, all at the cost of... 0 MP. That's what I would call broken, anyhow

While i agree with you in some respects, I totally disagree in many others, for example, using anything as a support ability besides "Martial Arts" means those monk skills are so weak they're basically useless, this provides the task of actually coming up with a way to make those skills strong enough to actually be useful on characters such as an arbalist, who, without his crossbows is essentially useless... Not to mention, a majority of the monks abilities are limited in vertical and horizontal reach, to the extent that the monk, with his poor speed and movement is really only self-sufficient, and not a good party support character. I've always felt that there should be other classes with access to Chakra, considering that without it, an ether, or dark sword, you are NOT restoring MP (I say this cause the battle should be over before anyone is a crystal if you're playing right) I think the monk, if anything, is under balanced, and should have a better reach of abilities. Though I do think that his physical attack power makes up for a lot, the simple fact is that there are 5 useful monk skills (not including, support, reactionary, and movement abilities) Wave fist, Earth Slash, Chakra, Stigma magic, and Revive. The later three of-course can only be used on even terrain, and within one square of the target, thereby limiting them EXTREMELY. Other monk skills are unpredictable and inacurate, they have almost no range, and are an insult to the monk's Physical Attack potential, i mean, spin fist is a joke, and secret fist is a waste of time when in 3 turns a monk could just slaughter you. To boot, there are no actual multi-hit techniques in the monk job, just one that's named as though it is multi-hit, it's really just a random damage that is a waste of time to actually use. (repeating fist)

However, this is of-course, my personal opinion, I'm a huge fan of the monk, but they really aren't cut out to be what you're lead to believe they can be.

||EDIT|| WTF was I thiking?!?!?!
« Last Edit: December 06, 2010, 07:17:36 PM by Zuka »
Archael
  • share
  • [December 09, 2008, 07:34:13 PM]
(No subject)
« Reply #15 on: December 09, 2008, 07:34:13 PM »
Quote from: "Zuka"
However, this is of-course, my personal opinion,



I disagreeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee





Let's begin.

Bare Fists are boostable by Martial Arts, PA, AND Brave.

A 97 Brave Monk can 1 shot anything it wants. And it can do this from the beginning of the game, no uber weapons required.


97 Brave Monk = Auto-800-999 damage.

Two Swords it and it's 1600++ damage. Concentrate that and it's 800-999 100% accurate damage.

So naturally, you move on to:

97 Brave Ninja w/ MA

Earth Slash = Instant FREE 760+ 100% 8 panel range attack, you don't even need Concentrate for it to be 100%. So just stack Earth Clothes + Bracer.

Or if you really want a 1 shotter 8 panel range cannon, stay in Monk Job, Earth Clothes, Bracer, AND Attack UP. Earth Slash will take care of the 100% accuracy and the 8 panel range.



Wave Fist + MA = Instant FREE 3 range + 3 Vert Tol. attack. Boostable by Attack UP or Concentrate.


That's all you need to know.


I don't even need to talk about the bonus utility that Chakra or Revive provide. Those are just icing on the cake.


Yes, you do need Martial Arts for the Monk Skills to be worth a damn. The problem here is that Monks have it Innate (not to mention Martial Arts can be used outside of the Monk Job), therefor making their offensive skills boostable by a great number of other combinations.

When you look at a job and try to judge it, you have to look at the entire thing, not just pretend like requiring Martial Arts to be broken makes it any less broken. :shock:  :shock:
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by Archael »
LastingDawn [Posts: 3452]
  • View Profile
  • share
  • [December 09, 2008, 08:55:48 PM]
(No subject)
« Reply #16 on: December 09, 2008, 08:55:48 PM »
Quote from: "Zuka"
Quote from: "LastingDawn"
They have a skillset which emphasizes Everything, Healing, Removing Status, Recovering MP! Long Range physical attacks, and multi hit techniques, all at the cost of... 0 MP. That's what I would call broken, anyhow

While i agree with you in some respects, I totally disagree in many others, for example, using anything as a support ability besides "Martial Arts" means those monk skills are so weak they're basically useless, this provides the task of actually coming up with a way to make those skills strong enough to actually be useful on characters such as an arbalist, who, without his crossbows is essentially useless... Not to mention, a majority of the monks abilities are limited in vertical and horizontal reach, to the extent that the monk, with his poor speed and movement is really only self-sufficient, and not a good party support character. I've always felt that there should be other classes with access to Chakra, considering that without it, an ether, or dark sword, you are NOT restoring MP (I say this cause the battle should be over before anyone is a crystal if you're playing right) I think the monk, if anything, is under balanced, and should have a better reach of abilities. Though I do think that his physical attack power makes up for a lot, the simple fact is that there are 5 useful monk skills (not including, support, reactionary, and movement abilities) Wave fist, Earth Slash, Chakra, Stigma magic, and Revive. The later three of-course can only be used on even terrain, and within one square of the target, thereby limiting them EXTREMELY. Other monk skills are unpredictable and inacurate, they have almost no range, and are an insult to the monk's Physical Attack potential, i mean, spin fist is a joke, and secret fist is a waste of time when in 3 turns a monk could just slaughter you. To boot, there are no actual multi-hit techniques in the monk job, just one that's named as though it is multi-hit, it's really just a random damage that is a waste of time to actually use. (repeating fist)

However, this is of-course, my personal opinion, I'm a huge fan of the monk, but they really aren't cut out to be what you're lead to believe they can be.

 I took the time to read this and I can notice at least a Dozen inconsistencies...

Quote
for example, using anything as a support ability besides "Martial Arts" means those monk skills are so weak they're basically useless, this provides the task of actually coming up with a way to make those skills strong enough to actually be useful on characters such as an arbalist, who, without his crossbows is essentially useless...

Voldemort has done a well enough job of disproving that.

Quote
Not to mention, a majority of the monks abilities are limited in vertical and horizontal reach, to the extent that the monk, with his poor speed and movement is really only self-sufficient, and not a good party support character. I've always felt that there should be other classes with access to Chakra, considering that without it, an ether, or dark sword, you are NOT restoring MP (I say this cause the battle should be over before anyone is a crystal if you're playing right)

As does every normal ability except Geomancy, which is not the topic of discussion at the moment. Also he is the Master of Support, he cures more things then Esuna, heals HP and MP At the Same Time, to multiple people, and the ability to Revive, dead units. He has taken the role of White Mage and improved upon it, sure he doesn't have their Status, but that is all he lacks. Monk is the quintessential perfect leader. With a move that can hit across the field, hitting multiple opponents, a ranged physical attack, a move to restore MP, a move to restore HP, and Revive. What does any normal class have to compare to that?

Quote
I think the monk, if anything, is under balanced, and should have a better reach of abilities. Though I do think that his physical attack power makes up for a lot, the simple fact is that there are 5 useful monk skills (not including, support, reactionary, and movement abilities) Wave fist, Earth Slash, Chakra, Stigma magic, and Revive. The later three of-course can only be used on even terrain, and within one square of the target, thereby limiting them EXTREMELY. Other monk skills are unpredictable and inacurate, they have almost no range, and are an insult to the monk's Physical Attack potential, i mean, spin fist is a joke, and secret fist is a waste of time when in 3 turns a monk could just slaughter you. To boot, there are no actual multi-hit techniques in the monk job, just one that's named as though it is multi-hit, it's really just a random damage that is a waste of time to actually use. (repeating fist)


Spin Fist is a Joke yes, beyond that though, every other move has it's purpose (except Secret Fist) and they have 5 of 7 useful moves. For a skillset to retain it's near complete use the whole game is very rare, but Monk manages to do that, with it's all encompassing abilities. Five of his abilities are never outweighed as the game goes on. Which is how it should be, but his abilities are simply too powerful.
-------------------------------------------------------------


On Topic - Yes, The Damned, I'd like the monk to have no healing capabilities, also the Stick idea sounds good, but like many other things will require an ASM hack, since the power of sticks are based on MA. That would need changed to PA.

Also Voldemort, quite great ideas! Along with you Boombkick, they each seem like fair ideas to apply.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by LastingDawn »
"Moment's anger can revert to joy,
sadness can be turned to delight.
A nation destroyed cannot be restored,
the dead brought back to life."

Art of War

Beta & Gretchen Forever!!!!
boomkick
  • share
  • [December 09, 2008, 09:26:41 PM]
(No subject)
« Reply #17 on: December 09, 2008, 09:26:41 PM »
I can NEARLY solo most of the story line battles with monk back in vanilla because of what i had on him (Ramza). Just max his brave and push his faith all the way down to innocence. He just kills with fists (double).

When i say nearly i say about 60%. Chakra is a lifesaver.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by boomkick »
Archael
  • share
  • [December 09, 2008, 09:35:37 PM]
(No subject)
« Reply #18 on: December 09, 2008, 09:35:37 PM »
ya chakra's pretty damn good.. especially when you tank with it (chakra, wait.. chakra.. wait) and the surrounding people just sit there picking things off
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by Archael »
Unreliable as a Mime.
The Damned [Posts: 2168]
  • View Profile
  • share
  • [December 09, 2008, 11:30:37 PM]
(No subject)
« Reply #19 on: December 09, 2008, 11:30:37 PM »
Although we're finally getting on topic, I've a question that I feel is related (or at least may be): If we can know, then you mind telling us what you plan to do with Hessian, LastingDawn?

I'm personally weary to suggest physical attacks/things that might overlap with that class, which I feel is slated to be the prime physical class given that it's one of the last ones you open and its opposite is Red Mage.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by The Damned »
"Sorrow cannot be abolished. It is meaningless to try." - FFX's Yunalesca

"Good and evil are relative, but being a dick cannot be allowed." - Oglaf's Thaumaturge in "The Abyss"

"Well, see, the real magic isn't believing in yourself. The real magic is manipulating people by telling them to believe in themselves. The more you believe, the less you check facts."  - Oglaf's Vanka in "Conviction"
Pages: [1] 2 3 ... 5