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Archael
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  • [November 21, 2008, 12:29:11 AM]
Warder Job Thread (Rad/Ramza Skillset update!)
« on: November 21, 2008, 12:29:11 AM »
Warder, Guards of Kings
So why is it that two down and out Mercenaries can become them... Ahem, in any case this is the Warder thread now, though talk of spriting for it will still go on here. The Warder specializes in defense and subjugation, but it lacks speed and high mobility. With innate Defense, the damage they will take is 25% less, which stacks with protect, thereby making them very difficult opponents to kill. The choice of weapon is the Bec De Corbin, a pick-like weapon used by nobles in the Dark Ages of Europe. It was used to tear and rip at armor, rather then pierce or slice through.

Philsov is to thank for these new skills, as with Arbalist, I'm perfectly fine with them having only seven skills, but Swordslap, as discussed in the thread where this is all being discuss will need replaced, since it will likely be given to another class.

Spriting Work on Warder[/b]




----------------------------------------------------------------------
Warder Skills


Quote
Warder - I knew I missed one of em~

Iconics:
Fortify - Range 0 AoE 1 vert 3.  100% Protect
Muster - PA+120%, range 1 + self.  Esuna effect.  Moralizes himself or allies, letting them shake off negative status.
(unknown)

Ramza:
Grapple - CT00 with perservere!
Crumble - Cancels Protect, Shell, Reflect, or Defend and deals 33% damage
Daze - 1 range, 100% Blind.  No damage (same as Rad's Archer's Blackout)
Knockout - 1 range.  Fa*(MA + 160%) success rate; sleep infliction.
X - Swordslap - SUPER-light damage (MA*1-ish).  1 range, useful for canceling charm, confusion, and sleep without harming your ally.
????

Rad:
Relieve - 1 range; cancels defending or sleep, healing target for 33%.  Max success rate.
Kick - 1 range, PA-based damage with target knockback
Unknown - Previously Ramza-only status infliction at decent success rate
Snuff - 1 range; cancels sleep, damaging target for 100%.  Moderate success rate.
Steadfast - self-only.  Heals for 10% every 6 ticks until canceled/out of MP.  Preferably also inflicts defend but can a formula do both?
???
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by Archael »
LastingDawn [Posts: 3452]
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  • [December 07, 2008, 01:50:53 AM]
(No subject)
« Reply #1 on: December 07, 2008, 01:50:53 AM »
Large Update on First Thread, we have 29 skill choices and I am only willing to expound 8 skills at most, so please, tell me your thoughts.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by LastingDawn »
"Moment's anger can revert to joy,
sadness can be turned to delight.
A nation destroyed cannot be restored,
the dead brought back to life."

Art of War

Beta & Gretchen Forever!!!!
AuraDragon
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  • [December 07, 2008, 03:58:39 AM]
(No subject)
« Reply #2 on: December 07, 2008, 03:58:39 AM »
I like the ones that focus on using his shield, and big-buffy skills, like Invigorate and Sacrifice, they match the Warder.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by AuraDragon »
Archael
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  • [December 07, 2008, 11:47:25 PM]
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« Reply #3 on: December 07, 2008, 11:47:25 PM »
2 strong votes for Snuff & Grapple

ALSO ARISE MIGHTY TOPIC!!!

YOUR SPRITE IS INCOMPLETE!!!!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by Archael »
Zephyr
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  • [December 08, 2008, 02:04:20 AM]
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« Reply #4 on: December 08, 2008, 02:04:20 AM »
I like invigorate, although it could become really broken. Any turn you have nothing to do, just boost yourself a bit. By the end of the battle, you'll most likely be tanking or dodging every attack thrown at you and one-shotting them right back.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by Zephyr »
Archael
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  • [December 08, 2008, 02:23:23 AM]
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« Reply #5 on: December 08, 2008, 02:23:23 AM »
Quote from: "Zephyr"
I like invigorate, although it could become really broken. Any turn you have nothing to do, just boost yourself a bit. By the end of the battle, you'll most likely be tanking or dodging every attack thrown at you and one-shotting them right back.


100% agreed

stat boosts are something which I extremely dislike
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by Archael »
Zephyr
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  • [December 08, 2008, 02:43:27 AM]
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« Reply #6 on: December 08, 2008, 02:43:27 AM »
no u
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by Zephyr »
Unreliable as a Mime.
The Damned [Posts: 2168]
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  • [December 08, 2008, 03:36:12 AM]
Re: Warder Job Thread (Large Update on First Post)
« Reply #7 on: December 08, 2008, 03:36:12 AM »
I might as well do this since I haven't done anything else today.

Concise version: I have chosen the eight attacks:

  • Shield Swing/Shield Spin (they're the same thing.)
  • Grapple.
  • Crumble.
  • Relieve.
  • Kick.
  • Persevere.
  • Leg Cut.
  • Arm Slice.
[/b]


Long version:

Quote from: "Voldemort7"
Aura - Gives Regen and Reraise to user

Hell no. This was broken when it was in FFTA, it will still be broken now.

Quote
Invigorate - PA + 2

Hell no. Even if it cost 100 or more MP, it would probably end up being still being broken.

Quote
Fortify - Gives Protect to all units surrounding user (AoE : 2)

Maybe. I like this, but Warder is a non-magical class. That's my only really gripe (outside of having to pick 8.)

Quote
Pile Drive - Weapon Damage and reduces target's CT to 0

Not eligible. There is currently no formula that does both of these things. ...However, now that I think about it, one slot may be capable....

That said, I still say no since faster classes would benefit from this more than Warder.

Quote
Shield Swing - Deals damage and knocks back all surrounding units

Yes. (#1) Too bad we don't have Shield animation for this or a way to make it capable only if you have a Shield.

Quote
Debilitate - Deals Damage + PA -1 and MA -1

Not eligible. As with Piledriver, there is currently no formula that does.

Quote
Grapple: Sets_CT00 at close-range while Persevering. (Uses formula 15, which is Faith-based and MA-based.)

Yes. (#2) Let the bias begin. I did this mostly because Pile Drive couldn't be done.

Quote
Forbid: Close-range single-target Mute basically. (Uses formula 16, which is both Faith-based and MA-based.)

No. Like I said earlier, this one is rather anti-mage and would benefit faster classes better. It's rather contradictory to Addle.

Quote
Crumble: Close-range single-target attack that does a third of max HP damage to those with Protect, Shell, Reflect or Defending (which it would attempt to Cancel). (It uses the Death formula, which is 0E, which is Faith-based and MA-based.)

Yes. (#3) Even though I'm still going to be using it for Berserker in my patch, I would still say this fits for one of the stronger physical classes.

Quote
Relieve: Close-range healing technique that Cancels Defending and Sleep and heals 20% HP. (Uses formula 35, which is PA-based.)

Yes. (#4) It fits the guard motif. The only reason that I may be against is because of a healing combo for 70% with the potential Lullaby skill for Cantor. You could maybe just make it cancel Defending.

Quote
Rest: Restores HP to full in return for putting the Warder to Sleep and otherwise Stopping him/her. (Uses formula 35 as well, which is PA-based.)

Maybe. Even if it added both Sleep and Stop, the HP restoration would probably have to be cut down on.

Quote
Cripple: A close-range physical attacks that attempts to Slow down the enemy so that he Cannot Move or Act. (Uses formula...31? There really aren't many good PA using formulas.)

No. I would actually say that in retrospect this tries to add to much for a physical attack (despite the fact that I'm probably still going to try and test out myself.) Anyway, faster classes would benefit more.

Quote
Snuff: A close-range attacks that puts a slumbering opponent to bed forever. (Uses formula 0E, which is Faith-based and MA-based.)

Maybe. Besides the Faith and MA-based problems, there's both the problem of faster classes using and the problem of it comboing with Lullaby. (Granted, such combos may not be that bad considering that you only get control of two people for said combo piece, but still....)

Quote
Kick: A close-range attack that attempts to put some distance between the Warder and a pressuring opponent. (Uses formula 37, which is PA-based but random.)

Yes. (#5) A generic skill, but one that gets the job done. It's basically a cheap version of Shield Swing and every class needs (useful) cheap skills.

Quote
Shield Spin: A close-range attack that attempts to knockback all nearby. (Uses formula 37, which is PA-based but random.)

...I already said yes to this because it's basically Shield Swing verbatim. (#1)

Quote
Persevere (For "the Lols"): The Warder attempts to fight off the fatigue and bodily decay caused by his never-ceasing Defending. Heals 10% HP and cancels Poison, Undead, and Don't Move. (Uses formula 35, which is PA-based.)


Yes. (#6) You would probably want to change the name and maybe lower the healing percentage.

Quote
Head Smash: Inflicts damage and has a high chance of inflicting silence to the enemy.

Maybe. Seems too anti-mage, though more forgiving since Addle is planned to be more universal.

Quote
Leg Cut: Inflicts damage and has a high chance of inflicting "Don't move".

Yes. (#7) Basically, this is why I think Cripple was too much. Between this and Arm Slice (the last attack), I think it's better to break them up.

Quote
Sacrifice: Improved version of WISH.

No. Too nebulous. Also, can't you not change Wish's formula anyway? I thought it went off of MAX HP?

Quote
Arm Slice: Inflicts damage and has a high chance of inflicting "Don't act"


Yes. (#8 ) See "Leg Cut".

I won't bother to do the last four moves--well, three since one of them is a Reaction, which we can't affect right now.
« Last Edit: December 17, 2008, 02:14:59 AM by The Damned »
"Sorrow cannot be abolished. It is meaningless to try." - FFX's Yunalesca

"Good and evil are relative, but being a dick cannot be allowed." - Oglaf's Thaumaturge in "The Abyss"

"Well, see, the real magic isn't believing in yourself. The real magic is manipulating people by telling them to believe in themselves. The more you believe, the less you check facts."  - Oglaf's Vanka in "Conviction"
Raven
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  • [December 16, 2008, 11:23:18 PM]
(No subject)
« Reply #8 on: December 16, 2008, 11:23:18 PM »
I think their main weapon should be axes.
Just because axes are hefty... and were pretty fail in vanilla
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by Raven »
Archael
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  • [December 28, 2008, 09:31:33 PM]
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« Reply #9 on: December 28, 2008, 09:31:33 PM »
bump for Curu
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by Archael »
Archael
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  • [January 24, 2009, 04:28:02 PM]
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« Reply #10 on: January 24, 2009, 04:28:02 PM »
My vote for Warder Skillset:

Grapple

Crumble

Snuff


those are the only true unique ones iMO


the others are too abuseable with self-status protection and/or are repeats of the entire "REMOVE X STATUS, DO Y! IT'S NOT BROKEN CUZ IT ONLY WORKS ON TARGETS WITH X LOL"



he needs some non-situational skills too... and some damage

I don't like Rest, Relieve, or Persevere... they are copies of the same concept and the Warder is not a healing class ok?

Use your idea with the damage-based-on-faith, that's a good one, for an offensive attack
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by Archael »
LastingDawn [Posts: 3452]
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  • [July 30, 2010, 05:32:25 PM]
Re: Warder Job Thread (Finalized skillset)
« Reply #11 on: July 30, 2010, 05:32:25 PM »
Resurrection!

Oy, Warder's were always a trouble spot... just remember to stick to the the tenets of Guarding, Protecting, and debilitating their foes. We need 8+ more skills for them.

"Moment's anger can revert to joy,
sadness can be turned to delight.
A nation destroyed cannot be restored,
the dead brought back to life."

Art of War

Beta & Gretchen Forever!!!!
R999
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  • [August 02, 2010, 09:28:55 PM]
Re: Warder Job Thread (Finalized skillset)
« Reply #12 on: August 02, 2010, 09:28:55 PM »
Hey LD~  nice to see you getting back to the project.

Here's my analysis of the current skillset for the job.




Fortify - Gives Protect to all units surrounding user (AoE : 1)

Unless Protect has a major boost, or if most normal standard attacks does extremely low damage, there is a huge opportunity cost for casting protect on the unit itself, making this skill only somewhat partially desirable if it can hit at least 2-3 members. In the AI's case, they won't cast Fortify efficiently without bundling with healing (and various flag manipulations). I assume the ability has no MP cost. I assume you intended this ability to be used when at a far distance, and that Protect lasts much longer than the vanilla counterpart.




Grapple: Sets_CT00 at close-range while Persevering. (Uses formula 15, which is Faith-based and MA-based.)

As per general rule, this ability must have a low success rate otherwise it can be abused with zodiac compat, especially against bosses. Last Dance formula is Non-Zodiac so you still have that option.

In the AI's case, the only time you will ever see them cast a CT00 skill is if it has the most range.. which you gave the total opposite here. So don't expect the AI to ever use this, even with flag manipulations. Zodiac would say "Random Hits", but you probably don't want that (casting Set CT00 on a low CT unit is just a waste of a turn, for example.



Crumble: Close-range single-target attack that does a third of max HP damage to those with Protect, Shell, Reflect or Defending (which it would attempt to Cancel). (It uses the Death formula, which is 0E, which is Faith-based and MA-based.)

Crumble works, however do beware that the AI may attempt to recast buffs while the Warder can eat them again for free lunch.



Relieve: Close-range healing technique that Cancels Defending and Sleep and heals 20% HP. (Uses formula 35, which is PA-based.)

Has limited uses only ever semi useful when healing someone with Sleep, at the cost of movement however since it is melee ranged.



Cripple: A close-range physical attacks that attempts to Slow down the enemy so that he Cannot Move or Act. (Uses formula...31? There really aren't many good PA using formulas.)

If the status inflict is set to Random, make sure Random Hits is set or else it will have unexpected higher than normal AI priority.



Snuff: A close-range attacks that puts a slumbering opponent to bed forever. (Uses formula 0E, which is Faith-based and MA-based.)

For AI optimization purposes should you be interested, you might want to consider avoiding bundling a single job with many different statuses. So when is it better to put someone to sleep vs putting someone into Don't Move/Don't Act? Most of the time, it is probably better to Snuff I assume Sleep isn't breakable. MA based, though status MA formulas don't really depend on MA itself (1 MA = 1 point of success). Finally as another general recommendation, I would make sure this is unevadeable if it is Faith based not both.



Slice Tendon: Inflicts damage and inflicts "Don't move".

Bread and butter move. If the status is 100% inflict, expect this to be spammed. Remember to set Don't Move so it cannot stack onto itself.



Reaction: Last stand: Gives protect, shell and regen when the unit enters in critical status

I suppose this is a reaction that can be learned across the board. The only problem with this reaction is that Protect+Shell+Regen isn't going to save anyone when their HP is under 20% (average 10%). By the way, how is this achieved, without a new ASM edit?




In my opinion, it maybe better off to distribute the status abilities across different jobs and make them slightly more unique than what you have here. You'll need to make a few adjustments to accommodate the AI. I have no idea what you intend to do with secret skills so no comment on that.

That's it for my quick review :)  Hope that was helpful.
LastingDawn [Posts: 3452]
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  • [August 03, 2010, 12:16:52 AM]
Re: Warder Job Thread (Finalized skillset)
« Reply #13 on: August 03, 2010, 12:16:52 AM »
Quote from: "R999"
Hey LD~  nice to see you getting back to the project.

Here's my analysis of the current skillset for the job.




Fortify - Gives Protect to all units surrounding user (AoE : 1)

Unless Protect has a major boost, or if most normal standard attacks does extremely low damage, there is a huge opportunity cost for casting protect on the unit itself, making this skill only somewhat partially desirable if it can hit at least 2-3 members. In the AI's case, they won't cast Fortify efficiently without bundling with healing (and various flag manipulations). I assume the ability has no MP cost. I assume you intended this ability to be used when at a far distance, and that Protect lasts much longer than the vanilla counterpart.

Hmm, I will think on that... since Mercenaries is technically four patches, I can set CT's appropriate to Level Caps (10-20 First Chapter, 20-30 Second Chapter, 30-40 Third Chapter, 40-50 Final Chapter)



Quote
Grapple: Sets_CT00 at close-range while Persevering. (Uses formula 15, which is Faith-based and MA-based.)

As per general rule, this ability must have a low success rate otherwise it can be abused with zodiac compat, especially against bosses. Last Dance formula is Non-Zodiac so you still have that option.

In the AI's case, the only time you will ever see them cast a CT00 skill is if it has the most range.. which you gave the total opposite here. So don't expect the AI to ever use this, even with flag manipulations. Zodiac would say "Random Hits", but you probably don't want that (casting Set CT00 on a low CT unit is just a waste of a turn, for example.

It's not that high, since it Perseveres. Also there is a work-around for this on bosses and other units as well. Since this is a Mediator only Formula (usually) Finger Guard protects against this. I'm willing to bet that it would also work against Ultima's Return 2 now that I think on it...


Quote
Crumble: Close-range single-target attack that does a third of max HP damage to those with Protect, Shell, Reflect or Defending (which it would attempt to Cancel). (It uses the Death formula, which is 0E, which is Faith-based and MA-based.)

Crumble works, however do beware that the AI may attempt to recast buffs while the Warder can eat them again for free lunch.

From what I've seen, the AI is not too keen on immediately recasting buffs if they are in immediate trouble.So this won't be too much of a problem.


Quote
Relieve: Close-range healing technique that Cancels Defending and Sleep and heals 20% HP. (Uses formula 35, which is PA-based.)

Has limited uses only ever semi useful when healing someone with Sleep, at the cost of movement however since it is melee ranged.

Ah not quite... Mercenaries is based off of a Two Person system. That is, that all the skills and skillsets are meant to primarily work off of one another. In this case Lethargic Psalm is the Catalyst. The Warder will have two Slow Set abilities so the reasons to use these are pretty high. Maybe not to the AI, but I focus more on player strategy. After all the odds are often heavily against you in Mercenaries.



Quote
Cripple: A close-range physical attacks that attempts to Slow down the enemy so that he Cannot Move or Act. (Uses formula...31? There really aren't many good PA using formulas.)

If the status inflict is set to Random, make sure Random Hits is set or else it will have unexpected higher than normal AI priority.

Will keep that in mind.


Quote
Snuff: A close-range attacks that puts a slumbering opponent to bed forever. (Uses formula 0E, which is Faith-based and MA-based.)

For AI optimization purposes should you be interested, you might want to consider avoiding bundling a single job with many different statuses. So when is it better to put someone to sleep vs putting someone into Don't Move/Don't Act? Most of the time, it is probably better to Snuff I assume Sleep isn't breakable. MA based, though status MA formulas don't really depend on MA itself (1 MA = 1 point of success). Finally as another general recommendation, I would make sure this is unevadeable if it is Faith based not both.

I think you're confusing this... Snuff Kills a sleeping opponent, by using the Death Formula (100%). Sleep can be inflicted on foes from a number of sources, though most of is weapon strikes, so using this admittedly is tricky. Which is the point.



Slice Tendon: Inflicts damage and inflicts "Don't move".

Bread and butter move. If the status is 100% inflict, expect this to be spammed. Remember to set Don't Move so it cannot stack onto itself.[/quote]

A good idea. It will have an MP cost, to slightly balance it.



Quote
Reaction: Last stand: Gives protect, shell and regen when the unit enters in critical status

I suppose this is a reaction that can be learned across the board. The only problem with this reaction is that Protect+Shell+Regen isn't going to save anyone when their HP is under 20% (average 10%). By the way, how is this achieved, without a new ASM edit?




In my opinion, it maybe better off to distribute the status abilities across different jobs and make them slightly more unique than what you have here. You'll need to make a few adjustments to accommodate the AI. I have no idea what you intend to do with secret skills so no comment on that.

That's it for my quick review :)  Hope that was helpful.

Well, the plan was that Regen would link to something useful... apparently it really did not. AI is not too much of a worry for me, admittedly. The odds are so heavily against you in most cases in Mercenaries that you're lucky that the AI will show a little bit of mercy from time to time.

"Moment's anger can revert to joy,
sadness can be turned to delight.
A nation destroyed cannot be restored,
the dead brought back to life."

Art of War

Beta & Gretchen Forever!!!!
R999
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  • [August 03, 2010, 01:13:43 AM]
Re: Warder Job Thread (Finalized skillset)
« Reply #14 on: August 03, 2010, 01:13:43 AM »
@LD: Ah I see that makes a good deal of sense now.  

Indeed you can create odds that are always against the player and allow room for the AI to show some mercy.  What I had in mind instead, was that since you only had control of 2-3 units, you may be fighting along with more AI controlled guests — where AI performance is more desirable.  Either way it'll work.

When the AI isn't considered, the generic job itself feels much more complete and whole.  Oh and yes I was confused with Snubber — actually I like this mechanic a lot. The description sounded like he was putting someone into sleep somehow...


Finger Guard —
LastingDawn [Posts: 3452]
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  • [August 22, 2010, 03:34:49 PM]
Re: Warder Job Thread (Rad/Ramza Skillset update!)
« Reply #15 on: August 22, 2010, 03:34:49 PM »
First post has been updated with Philsov's new ideas! I'm fine with seven skills for this class, but what do the rest of you think? Also we need a skill to replace SwordSlap, since it will be moved to another class.

"Moment's anger can revert to joy,
sadness can be turned to delight.
A nation destroyed cannot be restored,
the dead brought back to life."

Art of War

Beta & Gretchen Forever!!!!
Winner of the 2nd 1.3 AI Tournament
PX_Timefordeath [Posts: 1781]
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  • [August 23, 2010, 03:50:44 AM]
Re: Warder Job Thread (Rad/Ramza Skillset update!)
« Reply #16 on: August 23, 2010, 03:50:44 AM »
Ironfist - Designed to protect his allies from harm, the Warder attempts to destroy the cause of harm. Break Weapon
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