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Poll

(Read Post Below) Should Job Acquirement be Split into Chapter/Patches?

Yes. (Reason Please) - 6 (75%)
No. (Reason Please) - 2 (25%)

Total Members Voted: 8

Voting closed: September 04, 2010, 08:16:01 PM


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LastingDawn [Posts: 3452]
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  • [November 19, 2008, 04:14:24 AM]
Job Tree Layout (UPDATE! Your Opinion Needed!) POLL!
« on: November 19, 2008, 04:14:24 AM »
Hmm, I've come across a bit of a concern. Which I think I will need some feedback to help with. I plan on not allowing the player to obtain all the jobs at the start of the game, meaning that I don't want people using Hessian and Red Mage as soon as Chapter 2 comes about. Though also I don't want All of the advanced classes to be used in the first chapter. Here was my idea for a split...



All of the Base (well of course), all of the Secondary, and all of the Composite Class will be available in Chapter 1. With at the start of Chapter 2 all of the Advanced Composite and Tertiary classes will open up Except for Red Mage and Hessian. I plan on those opening up in the Chapter 3 Patch.

Now there are some pros and cons to this system no matter which decision is made. My worry is that people will become bored if they unlock All the classes in the first patch and there will be very little to drive them forward for the rest of the patches/chapters. Also in Chapter 1 some classes themselves are hardly usable because of the lack of usable equipment available in that patch.

For instance, Warder's first weapon isn't available until Level 25, which the max level of equipment in Patch 1 is Level 22 and all of the Level 20+ equipment is considered "rare" for that patch.

The cons of this setup is it stifles creativity on the part of the player. It doesn't allow as much customization as would be possible ordinarily.

So I leave it to you. I will leave a poll up for a week and Please if you do Vote, please post a reasoning of why you voted one way or another, thank you for all the help you may give in refuting or supporting this decision that depends solely on your votes.

Quote from: "Philsov"
Start Base
---------
Monk - 1 Base (100)
Scryer - 1 Base (100)

Secondary Class
Invoker - 3 Scryer (450)
Cantor - 3 Scryer (450)
Knight - 3 Monk (450)
Traveler - 3 Monk (450)

Tertiary Class
Warder - 4 Knight (1250)
Gambler - 4 Traveler (1250)
Trancer - 2 Invoker, 2 Knight,  2 Traveler, 2 Cantor (1200)

Composite Class
Reliquian - 3 Knight, 3 Invoker (1600)
Blue Mage - 3 Cantor, 3 Traveler (1600)
EsperBlades - 3 Cantor, 3 Invoker (1600)
Archer - 3 Knight, 3 Traveler (1600)

Advanced Composite Class
Inquisitor - 4 Warder, 4 Reliquian (3950)
Dragoon - 4 Gambler, 4 Blue Mage (3950)
Arbalist - 6 Archer (2750)


Master Class
Hessian - 4 Dragoon, 4 Warder, 8 Arbalist (10000)
Red Mage - 4 Inquisitor, 4 Blue Mage, 8 EsperBlade (10350)
« Last Edit: March 09, 2009, 02:45:56 AM by LastingDawn »
"Moment's anger can revert to joy,
sadness can be turned to delight.
A nation destroyed cannot be restored,
the dead brought back to life."

Art of War

Beta & Gretchen Forever!!!!
boomkick
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  • [November 19, 2008, 05:09:46 AM]
(No subject)
« Reply #1 on: November 19, 2008, 05:09:46 AM »
Knight 2 Base
Archer 2 Base
Chemist 2 Base
------------------------
Invoker- 3 Chemist
Cantor- 3 Chemist
------------------------
Oracle- 4 Chemist, 3 Invoker, 3 Cantor
Monk- 4 Knight, 3 Archer
------------------------
Geomancer- 3 Monk, 2 Invoker, 2 Cantor
Traveler- 4 Archer, 3 Cantor, 3 Base
Mediator- 6 Cantor, 4 Base
Dragoon- 8 Knight, 8 Base
-------------------------
Blue Mage- 4 Base, 8 Chemist, 6 Invoker, 6 Cantor, 6 Oracle
Gambler- 8 Base, 6 Knight, 6 Monk, 6 Archer
?Appraiser?- 8 Traveler
-------------------------
Hessian- 8 Base, 5 Chemist, 4 Knight, 3 Archer, 6 Monk, 7 Traveler, 5 Mediator, 6 Geomancer, 6 Appraiser
-------------------------
Red Mage- 8 Blue Mage, 8 Chemist, 8 Invoker, 8 Cantor, 8 Oracle, 6 ???, 6 ???, 4 Geomancer
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by boomkick »
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philsov [Posts: 4598]
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  • [November 19, 2008, 05:33:06 AM]
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« Reply #2 on: November 19, 2008, 05:33:06 AM »
:shock:

Uh.... woo boy.  Needs far more linearity, imo.  I actually made the mistake of drawing this out on paper, and I need to do this in 3-D and then MAYBE I won't run into massive line conflict.

Let's look at the Geomancer, for example.

The real reqs are:

Geomancer - 2 Squire, 2 Knight, 2 Oracle, 2 Archer, 3 Cantor, 2 Chemist, 2 Invoker 2 Monk.  

By relation, that's more unlocking, job wise, than either Dancer or Bard in classic FFT, and far more difficult to comprehend.  

What I suggest is a hex/triangular job tree.  I really like this design, though you may want to swap a few jobs around.  I did my best to keep them to their old reqs, but obviously some flex had to happen.

Tier 1:
Base

Teir 2:
Knight = 2 base
Invoker = 2 base
Archer = 2 base

Teir 3:
Cantor = 3 Base + 2 Invoker + 2 Knight
Traveler = 3 Base + 2 Archer + 2 Invoker
Monk = 3 Base + 2 Knight + 2 Archer

Teir 4:
Oracle = 3 Cantor + 3 Invoker
Chemist = 3 Invoker + 3 Traveler
Appraiser = 3 Traveler + 3 Archer
Gambler = 3 Archer + 3 Monk
Geomancer = 3 Monk + 3 Knight
Blue Mage = 3 Knight + 3 Cantor

Teir 5:
Summoner = 4 Cantor + 3 Oracle + 3 Blue Mage
Time Mage = 4 Invoker + 3 Oracle + 3 Chemist
Mediator = 4 Archer + 3 Appraiser + 3 Gambler
Dragoon = 4 Monk + 3 Geomancer + 3 Gambler

Teir 6:
Red Mage = 5 Oracle + 4 Summoner + 5 Time Mage + 7 Knight
Hussein = 5 Gambler  + 4 Dragoon + 4 Mediator + 7 Traveler

Obviously the magic classes will warrant some swapping because half of your red mage description was "not TM and not summoner", but I polarized it at the end between magic and physical stuff.  

Edit: Similarly, you can make the RM a composite of Knight, Blue Mage, and Geomancer and the HESSAIN a composite of Traveler, Chemist, and Appraiser.  Though neither seem to really fit.
« Last Edit: November 19, 2008, 05:46:22 AM by philsov »
Just another rebel plotting rebellion.
boomkick
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  • [November 19, 2008, 05:34:52 AM]
(No subject)
« Reply #3 on: November 19, 2008, 05:34:52 AM »
Quote from: "philsov"
...Hussein =[.../quote]

LOLCAKES
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by boomkick »
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philsov [Posts: 4598]
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  • [November 19, 2008, 05:46:35 AM]
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« Reply #4 on: November 19, 2008, 05:46:35 AM »
Quote from: "boomkick"
Quote from: "philsov"
...Hussein =[.../quote]

LOLCAKES


 :oops:
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by philsov »
Just another rebel plotting rebellion.
LastingDawn [Posts: 3452]
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  • [November 19, 2008, 05:51:44 AM]
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« Reply #5 on: November 19, 2008, 05:51:44 AM »
Truly great ideas! Also, I am surprised it was even Possible to make a "tree" out of this thing, you are a very clever person, Philsov, truly quite clever. I cannot fathom how long it took you to make that chart...  you truly have a knack for this, and yes, I agree 100% that this was needed to make things even slightly playable, as it was before, you needed to step into several magic classes to even Touch another physical one! I am very glad you made this chart, and it will definitely supply a great template for the final, were you good in math by chance?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by LastingDawn »
"Moment's anger can revert to joy,
sadness can be turned to delight.
A nation destroyed cannot be restored,
the dead brought back to life."

Art of War

Beta & Gretchen Forever!!!!
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philsov [Posts: 4598]
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  • [November 19, 2008, 06:00:26 AM]
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« Reply #6 on: November 19, 2008, 06:00:26 AM »
I always enjoy a good logic puzzle :-D

More scientist by trade/study, though.  But I enjoy math all the same.

If you compress the tree it'd look like a color wheel O.o
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by philsov »
Just another rebel plotting rebellion.
Archael
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  • [November 19, 2008, 02:39:23 PM]
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« Reply #7 on: November 19, 2008, 02:39:23 PM »



hey

that looks like my ex gf when she wakes up

you have truly captured her "essence" phil




no but seriously looks good gj
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by Archael »
LastingDawn [Posts: 3452]
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  • [March 03, 2009, 12:25:48 PM]
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« Reply #8 on: March 03, 2009, 12:25:48 PM »
Alright, Philsov! Now that the set is just about complete I really need your help in making this job tree look like... anything presentable to... anyone.

Scryer

Invoker

Cantor

Archer

Monk

Knight

Blue Mage

Warder

Arbalist

Reliquian

Gambler

EsperBlade

Traveler

Inquisitor

Dragoon

Hessian

Red Mage
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by LastingDawn »
"Moment's anger can revert to joy,
sadness can be turned to delight.
A nation destroyed cannot be restored,
the dead brought back to life."

Art of War

Beta & Gretchen Forever!!!!
Likes to move it move it.
philsov [Posts: 4598]
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  • [March 06, 2009, 05:24:25 PM]
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« Reply #9 on: March 06, 2009, 05:24:25 PM »
Give me some time to read over the class descriptions and get a rough idea on tier placement and whatnot!
« Last Edit: March 06, 2009, 06:18:47 PM by philsov »
Just another rebel plotting rebellion.
Internet Cool
Dokurider [Posts: 2807]
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  • [March 06, 2009, 05:29:20 PM]
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« Reply #10 on: March 06, 2009, 05:29:20 PM »



 :shock:
Does it really have to be a hex tree? It looks like a nuclear meltdown in the process.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by Dokurider »
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philsov [Posts: 4598]
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  • [March 06, 2009, 05:34:10 PM]
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« Reply #11 on: March 06, 2009, 05:34:10 PM »
LD's initial one was only visible in 3D, if that's any solace.

After looking at the pic again I'm leaning toward more linear job progression... all this composite stuff is a total PAIN.  To go from Oracle to Time Mage in the old version you'd need to go back through Archer/Traveler/Chemist.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by philsov »
Just another rebel plotting rebellion.
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philsov [Posts: 4598]
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  • [March 06, 2009, 05:44:43 PM]
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« Reply #12 on: March 06, 2009, 05:44:43 PM »
and most importantly, what IS/ARE the base class(es)?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by philsov »
Just another rebel plotting rebellion.
LastingDawn [Posts: 3452]
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  • [March 07, 2009, 06:01:16 PM]
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« Reply #13 on: March 07, 2009, 06:01:16 PM »
I could have Sworn I posted a reply in this topic! All of them are in the initial request for help to you, excluding Red Mage and Hessian.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by LastingDawn »
"Moment's anger can revert to joy,
sadness can be turned to delight.
A nation destroyed cannot be restored,
the dead brought back to life."

Art of War

Beta & Gretchen Forever!!!!
Likes to move it move it.
philsov [Posts: 4598]
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  • [March 08, 2009, 11:03:54 PM]
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« Reply #14 on: March 08, 2009, 11:03:54 PM »
ok, I went a little more linear this go-round.

I went with Monk and Scryer being the base classes... seem rather fitting to the whole merc idea.  I gathered some general information on the class threads with names on them, and then the oracle thread.  Most of the pre-reqs and parent classes seem rather fitting (I really like the inq -> Red Mage, but it might be more fitting for inq -> Hes and Relic -> RM instead of Relic -> Hes.  dunno)), all while maintaining a decent grasp on cleanliness, accuracy, and symmetry.  

This of course seems just a little too similar to the original FFT tree, and I'm currently working on a newer design (with a few more composite lines), but here's draft number one.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by philsov »
Just another rebel plotting rebellion.
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philsov [Posts: 4598]
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  • [March 08, 2009, 11:42:04 PM]
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« Reply #15 on: March 08, 2009, 11:42:04 PM »
ok, this job tree has roughly the same 6-class base, then things start to shift some.  Everything's a little more composite here.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by philsov »
Just another rebel plotting rebellion.
LastingDawn [Posts: 3452]
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  • [March 09, 2009, 12:59:40 AM]
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« Reply #16 on: March 09, 2009, 12:59:40 AM »
Ah, looks good, only thing it's missing is the Trancer, (Which is now the Geomancer's replacement), aside from that though it looks 100% solid! The class is PA/MA based, just like the old Geomancer, thank you for all your help, Philsov!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by LastingDawn »
"Moment's anger can revert to joy,
sadness can be turned to delight.
A nation destroyed cannot be restored,
the dead brought back to life."

Art of War

Beta & Gretchen Forever!!!!
LastingDawn [Posts: 3452]
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  • [March 09, 2009, 02:45:05 AM]
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« Reply #17 on: March 09, 2009, 02:45:05 AM »
Alright, now one thing I've noticed that FFT doesn't do is accumulate the job classes, now this is an odd practice... Now this is explanatory as the normal job classes really didn't take a lot to get to. Though this will be changed in Mercenaries with the practice being a bit more... practical, so to speak.

Alright, let's start off...
(Based on Philsov's chart...)

Start Base
---------
Monk - 2 Base
Scryer - 2 Base
----------------------
Secondary Class
Invoker - 2 Scryer
Cantor - 2 Scryer
----------------------
Knight - 2 Monk
Traveler - 2 Monk
-------------------
Tertiary Class
Warder - 5 Knight
Gambler - 5 Traveler
-------------------------
Composite Class
Reliquian - 4 Knight, 4 Invoker
Blue Mage - 4 Cantor, 4 Traveler
EsperBlades - 3 Cantor, 3 Invoker
---------------------------
Archer - 3 Knight, 3 Traveler
---------------------------
Advanced Composite Class
Inquisitor - 6 Warder, 6 Reliquian
-------------------------------
Dragoon - 6 Gambler, 6 Blue Mage
Arbalist - 7 Archer
--------------------------------------
Master Class
Hessian - 4 Dragoon, 4 Warder, 8 Arbalist
----------------
Red Mage - 4 Inquisitor, 4 Blue Mage, 8 EsperBlade

--------------------------------------------------------


Of course without going through the semantics and what it takes to reach each and everyone, it takes a bit more time to reach Hessian then it will Red Mage. Well, I hope that this has been informative, though I am a slight biit concerned that it's all still a bit too high, any thoughts?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by LastingDawn »
"Moment's anger can revert to joy,
sadness can be turned to delight.
A nation destroyed cannot be restored,
the dead brought back to life."

Art of War

Beta & Gretchen Forever!!!!
Likes to move it move it.
philsov [Posts: 4598]
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  • [March 09, 2009, 03:25:13 AM]
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« Reply #18 on: March 09, 2009, 03:25:13 AM »
You didn't include trancer in your list!  :'(

But mixed PA/MA job that draws from all the classes?  Sounds like a nice composite class to meeeeee.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by philsov »
Just another rebel plotting rebellion.
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philsov [Posts: 4598]
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  • [March 09, 2009, 03:30:43 AM]
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« Reply #19 on: March 09, 2009, 03:30:43 AM »
Quote
though I am a slight biit concerned that it's all still a bit too high, any thoughts?


Agreed.  

imo:  
Tertiary Class
Warder - 4 Knight
Gambler - 4 Traveler
-------------------------
Composite Class
Reliquian - 3 Knight, 3 Invoker
Blue Mage - 3 Cantor, 3 Traveler
EsperBlades - 3 Cantor, 3 Invoker
Archer - 3 Knight, 3 Traveler

(Trancer) - 3 Knight, 3 Traveler, 3 Invoker, 3 Cantor -- (maybe even extend to 2/3 Reliq/BM/Esp/Arc!~).

Advanced Composite Class
Inquisitor - 4 Warder, 4 Reliquian
Dragoon - 4 Gambler, 4 Blue Mage
Arbalist - 6 Archer

Hmz...
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by philsov »
Just another rebel plotting rebellion.
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