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Andrew [Posts: 211]
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  • [November 25, 2016, 03:27:27 AM]
Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
« Reply #100 on: November 25, 2016, 03:27:27 AM »
Cool.  I'm glad that you like it, Gaignun.


I know that I'm a little late to the party, but here's my favourites from the suggestion list (and thread):

Also, here's some other new ideas that myself and others have come-up with in the Discord channel recently:


I like all of Gaignun's suggestions. The only one I could add to that list... Change 4 Clothes
Black Costume   100   10   Absorb: Dark, Fire
Mirage Vest   100   10   Absorb: Holy, Wind
Rubber Suit   100   10   Absorb: Lighting, Earth
Aqua Suit           100   10   Absorb: Ice, Water
Replaces current elemental Clothing

Gives a balanced approach to Elemental Equipment and allows more interesting builds.

I'm definitely cool with this.


<snip>

Wish: I agree that this skill is the worst method of revival.  Having it ignore the Undead status wouldn't change this, but at least it would give it a niche application on Undead teams.  Perhaps we could turn Wish into the proposed Phoenix Pinion skill as an alternative.

Ultima: I think the problem has more to do with Chiri being overpowered than Ultima being underpowered.  Chiri walks all over not only Ultima, but Muramasa, as well.  If I had it my way, I would drop Chiri's damage from MA*9 to MA*8 and its JP cost from 400 to 200~300.  Then, Muramasa would become the sole MA*9 Draw Out skill.  Comparison of Ultima and Muramasa is much more charitable towards Ultima.

I'm definitely in favour of buffing Wish and even Revive.  Maybe Wish could go to 25%, and Revive to 33%?  If need be, they could have their JP costs increased, but I don't feel that would be necessary.  Chirijiraden could definitely go down to MAx8 and 300 JP.


EDIT 1: Removed my Bronze Armor idea, as CT5 convinced me that it wouldn't be a good idea.

EDIT 2: Now that I think about it, Chirijiraden can go to MAx8 and stay at 400 JP, as it'd still be worth the price.  Also, Phoenix Blade should go down to 13 WP: initial Reraise is powerful in its own right, so it should be brought down to the power of the other elemental swords, at the very least.
« Last Edit: November 25, 2016, 05:31:25 PM by Andrew »
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  • Gaignun [Posts: 528]
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    • [November 25, 2016, 06:10:29 PM]
    Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
    « Reply #101 on: November 25, 2016, 06:10:29 PM »
    - Spell Guns: WP reduction or turn into books (Magical books that shoot... magic.  It makes sense!)

    I'm glad you like the book idea!  We can do Harry Potter cosplay together.

    My comments on the new ideas as a Discord outsider:
    Andrew [Posts: 211]
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    • [November 25, 2016, 06:49:07 PM]
    Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
    « Reply #102 on: November 25, 2016, 06:49:07 PM »
    LOL, sounds like a fun time for next Halloween.  :P

    Yell: I honestly don't know what else to do to it without it becoming a clone of the other Haste skills.  Somebody mentioned in Discord that it could use Dokurider's new "cone AoE" ASM hack.  (A similar suggestion was made for Aurablast and the physical Draw Outs, as well.)
    Muramasa: What if it was PAx9 and had more vertical going for it, since Attack's vertical is only 2?
    Murasame: I hope that (MA+PA/2)*X is at least a step in the right direction.  Originally, it was *12, not *13.
    Counter Comet: I originally thought 75 would be okay.  How about 80?
    MP Poison: 1/4th would allow for it to keep-up with how fast-paced Arena can be, and put pressure on mages.  I feel that merging it with HP Poison wouldn't solve its potency problem at all, as most MP builds would easily shrug off its damage (unless it went to 1/4th as well as merged, but I think that'd be a little too much).  I guess it would persist upon death, though, so it would still be an improvement.

    I'm glad that you like the other suggestions.

    EDIT: To clarify, the cone AoE would look like this: (Gatebuster202 said that we could perhaps use it for Muramasa, as well)
    ooPoo
    ooxoo
    oxxxo
    xxxxx
    « Last Edit: November 25, 2016, 11:18:12 PM by Andrew »
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  • Gaignun [Posts: 528]
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    • [November 28, 2016, 05:14:53 PM]
    Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
    « Reply #103 on: November 28, 2016, 05:14:53 PM »
    Muramasa: What if it was PAx9 and had more vertical going for it, since Attack's vertical is only 2?

    I don't think even 9*PA would make much difference seeing how most two-handed weapons have at least 16 effective WP.  Extra vertical would be nice, but then the skill would be very situational.

    Murasame: I hope that (MA+PA/2)*X is at least a step in the right direction.  Originally, it was *12, not *13.

    Let's see.  Currently Murasame is MA*10 and cannot be boosted with MAtk UP (i.e., its output value is immutable).  Turning it into (MA+PA/2)*10 would add a flat 5*PA.  Going from there to (MA+PA/2)*12 would be equivalent to first buffing the current Murasame to MA*12, then adding a flat 6*PA on top of that.  I'm sure you can see by now how strong of a buff that is.

    How about we start with XA = (MA+PA)/2 as a guide? Most classes have somewhere around 7 XA. The top scorers are the Dancerbard (10) and Monk, Geomancer, Samurai, and Scholar (9). To uphold the healing "floor" (e.g., 110 healing by an 11 MA female samurai (famurai?)) the formula XA*(11~12) would be appropriate.  To uphold the healing "ceiling" (e.g., 180 healing by a MA-stacked Geomancer), the formula XA*14 would be appropriate.  Upholding the floor knocks down the ceiling, and upholding the ceiling lifts up the floor.

    Next, let's consider XA = (MA+PA/2) as originally suggested. Now the average XA is around 12~13, and the top scorers are the Bard (16), female Samurai and Scholar (14.5), and Dancer (14).  The appropriate formula is then around XA*8 (floor and ceiling).

     
    Counter Comet: I originally thought 75 would be okay.  How about 80?

    80 is better than 70!

    Cone AoE stuff

    The cone AoE feels like something I would see in Disgaea.  I am eager to listen to the possibilities this AoE hack would bring.  It feels a little thematically inconsistent on Draw Out, but definitely neat on Punch Art.

    Spellbooks
    Finally, let me close with a few formal spellbook suggestions.  As a common theme, every book is imbued with an element.

    Omnilex: 14 WP, 3 Range, Cast Fire 2 [Dmg_F(WP*12)]
    Heptameron: 13 WP, 3 Range, Cast Ice 2 [Dmg_F(WP*13)]
    Picatrix: 12 WP, 3 Range, Cast Bolt 2 [Dmg_F(WP*14)]
    Necronomicon: 14 WP, 3 Range, Cast Bio 3 [Dmg_F(WP*11)]

    The book colors are coordinated with the spell elements (i.e., Omnilex is red, Heptameron is blue, Picatrix is yellow, and Necronomicon is an ominous green).  These books would replace the current ones.
    « Last Edit: November 28, 2016, 05:30:13 PM by Gaignun »
    Barren [Posts: 2547]
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    • [November 28, 2016, 06:47:13 PM]
    Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
    « Reply #104 on: November 28, 2016, 06:47:13 PM »
    I like the spell book ideas. That looks like it's cool.

    And also, I know it will sound a bit too nit picky but for a class called scholar it cant wield books? Are they illiterate?

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    Andrew [Posts: 211]
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    • [November 28, 2016, 07:07:02 PM]
    Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
    « Reply #105 on: November 28, 2016, 07:07:02 PM »
    I don't think even 9*PA would make much difference seeing how most two-handed weapons have at least 16 effective WP.  Extra vertical would be nice, but then the skill would be very situational.
    Yeah, you're right.  I had an idea about turning it into a physical version of Chirijiraden, but that would definitely overshadow Spin Fist, a skill that definitely needs a nerf as it is.  I'm a little sad right now, TBH.

    <Murasame stuff>
    Makes sense.  I'd be fine with *8 or *9.  Please, join us on Discord!  (Seriously)

    Spellbooks
    Finally, let me close with a few formal spellbook suggestions.  As a common theme, every book is imbued with an element.

    Omnilex: 14 WP, 3 Range, Cast Fire 2 [Dmg_F(WP*12)]
    Heptameron: 13 WP, 3 Range, Cast Ice 2 [Dmg_F(WP*13)]
    Picatrix: 12 WP, 3 Range, Cast Bolt 2 [Dmg_F(WP*14)]
    Necronomicon: 14 WP, 3 Range, Cast Bio 3 [Dmg_F(WP*11)]

    The book colors are coordinated with the spell elements (i.e., Omnilex is red, Heptameron is blue, Picatrix is yellow, and Necronomicon is an ominous green).  These books would replace the current ones.
    I hate spellguns so much that I, in the end, wouldn't mind having these replacing the current books.  However, any weapon can have its type turned into another, so we can simply just turn the spellguns into spellbooks, and leave the current books alone (or, if need be, we can buff them in a less extreme way).  Also, there's already the Black Staff for Bio 3, which I'm hoping will have its proc chance buffed in the future.  Despite my gripes, I like what you've come-up with here.

    Thanks for the feedback, Gaignun.
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    dw6561 [Posts: 253]
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    • [November 28, 2016, 09:02:01 PM]
    Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
    « Reply #106 on: November 28, 2016, 09:02:01 PM »
    I had (PA+MA)/2*Y in mind all along when I mentioned it on Discord. That might have just been an order of operations miscommunication on my part.


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    Andrew [Posts: 211]
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    • [November 28, 2016, 09:14:35 PM]
    Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
    « Reply #107 on: November 28, 2016, 09:14:35 PM »
    My bad, DW.  :P
    Gaignun [Posts: 528]
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    • [November 30, 2016, 07:33:28 AM]
    Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
    « Reply #108 on: November 30, 2016, 07:33:28 AM »
    I'm looking for ways to avoid preparing for an exam, so here's a survey of the proposed elemental armor along with my predictions on the metagame.

    Shirts
    Black Costume   100   10   Absorb: Dark, Fire
    Mirage Vest      100   10   Absorb: Holy, Wind
    Rubber Suit      100   10   Absorb: Lighting, Earth
    Aqua Suit        100   10   Absorb: Ice, Water

    Robes
    White Robe    80   50   Half: Fire, Ice, Lightning
    Black Robe     65   40   Boost: Fire, Ice, Lightning
    Cultist Robe    65   40   Boost: Holy, Dark

    The elemental meta is flattened
    Until recently, each element had its own niche:
    • Fire, Ice, and Lightning are easily defended against thanks to White Robe and elemental clothing. (Two of the most common elemental defenses in S5 were Fire and Lightning.) They are also easily boosted thanks to Black Robe, rods, and Mace of Zeus.
    • Water suffers from a lack of solid weapons and skills, so it is probably the least threatening element of the bunch. Teams that defend against water usually do so incidentally (e.g., they use Flash hat to protect themselves from Earth, or Wizard Mantle to protect themselves from Don't Act.)
    • Earth, in contrast, has some great weapons and skills in its repertoire (e.g. Kikuichimonji, Quake, and Earth is Slash). Furthermore, it is the easiest element to simultaneously boost and absorb thanks to Earth Clothes.  Together with Black Robe, Earth Clothes is the only armor to boost elements, but unlike Black Robe, you got absorption as a two-for-one deal.  Furthermore, Earth Clothes granted a whopping +25 HP over Black Robe. Altogether, Earth-absorption teams are the easiest to design. For that reason, earth protection is important in the metagame.
    • Wind is earth's retarded cousin: It is represented with a similar set of skills and is countered by the same equipment (Flash Hat), but is harder to boost. Wind-themed teams have been taking a backseat ever since their only self-absorbable AoE spell (Tornado) was nerfed to be weaker than Black Magic's Fire spell and Wave Fist became Holy elemental. (Seriously, only 3% of units used Wind offense in S5 -- by far the lowest of all elements.)
    • Holy is currently the offensive superstar: Easily boosted thanks to Golden Hairpin and easily accessible and destructive due to the presence of its eponymous skill on White Magic.  Meanwhile, Holy absorption gear is hard to utilize (i.e., the only Holy-absorbing armor is on a robe, and Magic Ring is underwhelming compared to superior accessories like Diamond Armlet.) Consequently, Holy-absorption teams are uncommon. (Holy was the most effective offensive element in S5: 20% of units used it, but only 11% blocked it.) With White Magic Holy users abound, you can count on equipment like Dracula Mantle and Chameleon robe to save your bacon.
    • Dark is Holy's dark twin (heh), as it is boostable by the same means (Golden Hairpin). However, Dark is more easily absorbed due to Black Costume, so more teams shy away from Dark-themed offense on average.  Dark was by far the most absorbed element back when Golden Hairpin gave +1 MA and you were stupid to not run a Draw Out Kotetsu unit.
    With the introduction of the new clothes, the absorption of every element becomes equally accessible.  So, instead on banking on Holy and Earth, you might as well just pick your favourite color.

    Earth teams take a hit
    The loss of Earth Clothes means that Earth is now no easier to use than any other element.  Earth strengthening is now only practical with Crystal Helmet and Prismatic Rod.  Furthermore, a second piece of equipment is needed to absorb Earth.  Crystal Helmet wearers have access to only Diamond Armlet, which severely restricts design freedom.  Also, users without helmet or rod access can no longer strengthen Earth natively.  The biggest losers that comes to mind due to this are Monks.

    Holy and Dark teams take a hit
    Shifting holy/dark strengthening from Golden Hairpin to a new piece of armor means that units without access to shields can no longer boost and absorb Holy and Dark without using their accessory slot.  And the accessories that absorb Holy (Magic Ring) and Dark (N-Kai Armlet) are lousy in my opinion.  Furthermore, the Holy/Dark boosting robe has very low HP.  Flimsy armor + no accessory freedom means Holy/Dark teams will be pretty fragile.  Furthermore, the loss of Chameleon Robe means that Grand Cross Excalibur Paladins go extinct.

    Lightning is the new Earth
    With Earth Clothes gone, Mace of Zeus becomes the only piece of equipment that both boosts and absorbs.  Slap that on a mage, pick and mix your armor and accessories, and have some fun.
    « Last Edit: November 30, 2016, 05:59:38 PM by Gaignun »
    Andrew [Posts: 211]
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    • [November 30, 2016, 02:23:00 PM]
    Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
    « Reply #109 on: November 30, 2016, 02:23:00 PM »
    Your insight is appreciated, Gaignun.  Thanks, and GL with your exam!
    silentkaster [Posts: 541]
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    • [November 30, 2016, 03:50:06 PM]
    Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
    « Reply #110 on: November 30, 2016, 03:50:06 PM »
    I'm looking for ways to avoid preparing for an exam, so here's a survey of the proposed elemental armor along with my predictions on the metagame.

    Shirts
    Black Costume   100   10   Absorb: Dark, Fire
    Mirage Vest      100   10   Absorb: Holy, Wind
    Rubber Suit      100   10   Absorb: Lighting, Earth
    Aqua Suit        100   10   Absorb: Ice, Water

    Robes
    White Robe    80   50   Half: Fire, Ice, Lightning
    Black Robe     65   40   Boost: Fire, Ice, Lightning
    Cultist Robe    65   40   Boost: Holy, Dark


    Minor point, but could we keep Rubber Costume as the name and perhaps use Adaman Vest or Mythril Vest for the Holy/Wind absorb if this gets implemented? I just like to keep it consistent in areas we can with Vanilla. I understand Aqua Suit as that would entirely cover all H20 based offense so it sounds good.

    The elemental meta is flattened
    Until recently, each element had its own niche:
    • Fire, Ice, and Lightning are easily defended against thanks to White Robe and elemental clothing. (Two of the most common elemental defenses in S5 were Fire and Lightning.) They are also easily boosted thanks to Black Robe, rods, and Mace of Zeus.

    At the moment, I think that these are necessary unfortunately with spell guns. Even in 1.38d when Spell Guns ran rampant, they still often took two hits to take down mages that weren't ridiculously low in HP even at maximum capacity. This is no longer the case. Also, Defense Ring and Defense Armlet probably accounted for much of the elemental defenses since these accessories are so strong (particularly since most were anticipating people to run teams with Don't Act and Berserk.) I think if Spell Guns get addressed, this may be different.

    • Water suffers from a lack of solid weapons and skills, so it is probably the least threatening element of the bunch. Teams that defend against water usually do so incidentally (e.g., they use Flash hat to protect themselves from Earth, or Wizard Mantle to protect themselves from Don't Act.)

    Agreed, though Water does have the unique ability to not be hampered by Reflect Ring/Reflect status.

    • Earth, in contrast, has some great weapons and skills in its repertoire (e.g. Kikuichimonji, Quake, and Earth is Slash). Furthermore, it is the easiest element to simultaneously boost and absorb thanks to Earth Clothes.  Together with Black Clothes, Earth Clothes is the only armor to boost elements, but unlike Black Robe, you got absorption as a two-for-one deal.  Furthermore, Earth Clothes granted a whopping +25 HP over Black Robe. Altogether, Earth-absorption teams are the easiest to design. For that reason, earth protection is important in the metagame.

    Earth has always been an exceptionally strong element. I always overlooked it a bit since Float can negate much of the Earth Element, but it's easier to make many types of teams which also happen to absorb Earth (as opposed to having the drawbacks many other elemental absorb teams have where abilities and equipment may have to be sacrificed to absorb particular elements.) I think Earth Clothes getting a swap is a good thing. However, then I would advocate for Monks keeping bags.

    • Wind is earth's retarded cousin: It is represented with a similar set of skills and is countered by the same equipment (Flash Hat), but is harder to boost. Wind-themed teams have been taking a backseat ever since their only self-absorbable AoE spell (Tornado) was nerfed to be weaker than Black Magic's Fire spell and Wave Fist became Holy elemental. (Seriously, only 3% of units used Wind offense in S5 -- by far the lowest of all elements.)

    Agreed fully on this.

    • Holy is currently the offensive superstar: Easily boosted thanks to Golden Hairpin and easily accessible and destructive due to the presence of its eponymous skill on White Magic.  Meanwhile, Holy absorption gear is hard to utilize (i.e., the only Holy-absorbing armor is on a robe, and Magic Ring is underwhelming compared to superior accessories like Diamond Armlet.) Consequently, Holy-absorption teams are uncommon. (Holy was the most effective offensive element in S5: 20% of units used it, but only 11% blocked it.) With White Magic Holy users abound, you can count on equipment like Dracula Mantle and Chameleon robe to save your bacon.

    This last patch, Holy saw a huge increase because of the lack of Holy element, at least AOE wise. With the new Heaven's Cloud, it's a huge boost since most teams did not want to count on "Holy spamming" theirselves in order to heal. Though it still doesn't have AOE like other elements, it's a much more viable option now. I would also argue that most teams having Reflect probably had Holy and Dark Holy in mind when thinking of using it (I'm aware some teams may have been thinking of Yin Yang Magic or Black Magic spells instead, but I'd be more inclined to believe Holy and Dark Holy were at the top of the list.)

    • Dark is Holy's dark twin (heh), as it is boostable by the same means (Golden Hairpin). However, Dark is more easily absorbed due to Black Costume, so more teams shy away from Dark-themed offense on average.  Dark was by far the most absorbed element back when Golden Hairpin gave +1 MA and you were stupid to not run a Draw Out Kotetsu unit.

    Again, pretty agreed. This was also partially due to Cursed Ring being stronger than its current form.

    With the introduction of the new clothes, the absorption of every element becomes equally accessible.  So, instead on banking on Holy and Earth, you might as well just pick your favourite color.

    Earth teams take a hit
    The loss of Earth Clothes means that Earth is now no easier to use than any other element.  Earth strengthening is now only practical with Crystal Helmet and Prismatic Rod.  Furthermore, a second piece of equipment is needed to absorb Earth.  Crystal Helmet wearers have access to only Diamond Armlet, which severely restricts design freedom.  Also, users without helmet or rod access can no longer strengthen Earth natively.  The biggest losers that comes to mind due to this are Monks.

    Holy and Dark teams take a hit
    Shifting holy/dark strengthening from Golden Hairpin to a new piece of armor means that units without access to shields can no longer boost and absorb Holy and Dark without using their accessory slot.  And the accessories that absorb Holy (Magic Ring) and Dark (N-Kai Armlet) are lousy in my opinion.  Furthermore, the Holy/Dark boosting robe has very low HP.  Flimsy armor + no accessory freedom means Holy/Dark teams will be pretty fragile.  Furthermore, the loss of Chameleon Robe means that Grand Cross Excalibur Paladins go extinct.

    Yup. That's why I'd advocate for Monks to still equip bags. I think they're going to see more nerfs which I'm not sure how I feel about, so if Earth Clothes get nixed, then I think bags are fair. Yeah, and if that's the case, Excalibur basically goes extinct along with it. If this happens, perhaps exchanging Excalibur's properties with one of the Fire/Lightning/Ice swords would work? (So that Paladins could equip shields and absorb Holy that way with the Holy crossing sword. Either that, or making Excalibur the sole Knight Sword that isn't forced 2H.)

    Lightning is the new Earth
    With Earth Clothes gone, Mace of Zeus becomes the only piece of equipment that both boosts and absorbs.  Slap that on a mage, pick and mix your armor and accessories, and have some fun.

    Yup, and with Spell Guns, I think it'd be really over the top. So not sure I'd want Lightning to be the new Go-To at the moment.

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    Gaignun [Posts: 528]
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    • [December 01, 2016, 01:32:35 AM]
    Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
    « Reply #111 on: December 01, 2016, 01:32:35 AM »
    Thank you for your comments, silentkaster.  I think you're right to worry about Monks losing bags if Earth-strengthening clothes disappear.

    I need to correct my spellbook proposal.  I got confused over the Master's guide.  Spellguns have tier 3 animations, right?  Yet they are written as casting tier 2 spells.  Anyway!

    Spellbooks revision
    Omnilex: 14 WP, 3 Range, Cast Fire 2 [Dmg_F(WP*10)]
    Heptameron: 13 WP, 3 Range, Cast Ice 2 [Dmg_F(WP*11)]
    Picatrix: 12 WP, 3 Range, Cast Bolt 2 [Dmg_F(WP*12)]
    Necronomicon: 11 WP, 3 Range, Cast Bio 3 [Dmg_F(WP*11)]

    Damage with MAtk UP and (without→with) elemental strengthening .
    Faith is not factored in.

    Omnilex: 180→220
    Heptameron: 187→231
    Picatrix: 192→240
    Necronomicon: 154→187, 20% add Undead

    Elemental strengthening costs up to 65 max HP (i.e., Brigandine→elemental robe) or the accessory slot (i.e., anything→108 Gems). The damage is roughly the same as current spellguns, but the books have shorter range, can miss, and can be equipped by only slow, squishy Priests and Summoners.  All in all, spellbooks should be much less potent than spellguns.
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    Reks [Posts: 682]
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    • [December 01, 2016, 07:21:21 AM]
    Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
    « Reply #112 on: December 01, 2016, 07:21:21 AM »
    Thank you for your comments, silentkaster.  I think you're right to worry about Monks losing bags if Earth-strengthening clothes disappear.

    I need to correct my spellbook proposal.  I got confused over the Master's guide.  Spellguns have tier 3 animations, right?  Yet they are written as casting tier 2 spells.  Anyway!

    Spellbooks revision
    Omnilex: 14 WP, 3 Range, Cast Fire 2 [Dmg_F(WP*10)]
    Heptameron: 13 WP, 3 Range, Cast Ice 2 [Dmg_F(WP*11)]
    Picatrix: 12 WP, 3 Range, Cast Bolt 2 [Dmg_F(WP*12)]
    Necronomicon: 11 WP, 3 Range, Cast Bio 3 [Dmg_F(WP*11)]

    Damage with MAtk UP and (without→with) elemental strengthening .
    Faith is not factored in.

    Omnilex: 180→220
    Heptameron: 187→231
    Picatrix: 192→240
    Necronomicon: 154→187, 20% add Undead

    Elemental strengthening costs up to 65 max HP (i.e., Brigandine→elemental robe) or the accessory slot (i.e., anything→108 Gems). The damage is roughly the same as current spellguns, but the books have shorter range, can miss, and can be equipped by only slow, squishy Priests and Summoners.  All in all, spellbooks should be much less potent than spellguns.

    If you recall, originally all four levels of each spell existed. At one point, the original tier for 2 became the nether spells  and the 4th level spells were axed to provide room for Water. The spell guns were then set to cast only the strongest spell instead of being random, which was the old 3 (now called Fire 2, ect), and that's why the animations don't technically line up in order.

    I would much rather see the level 4 animations over the 3 ones because they have more visual oomph, but that's me.
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    dw6561 [Posts: 253]
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    • [December 01, 2016, 03:44:05 PM]
    Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
    « Reply #113 on: December 01, 2016, 03:44:05 PM »
    Quote

    Elemental strengthening costs up to 65 max HP (i.e., Brigandine→elemental robe) or the accessory slot (i.e., anything→108 Gems). The damage is roughly the same as current spellguns, but the books have shorter range, can miss, and can be equipped by only slow, squishy Priests and Summoners.  All in all, spellbooks should be much less potent than spellguns.

    For the record, I would have to code the spell guns to miss. The magic gun formula doesn't account for evasion. My understanding of it is that it would be just like a 3 range spell gun that doesn't have to worry about projectile guard.I still like this though because of the shorter range and like you said, summoners and priests. Though also I'm a little nervous about the extra high-faith synergy this could resukt with on priests 

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    gatebuster202 [Posts: 313]
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    • [December 17, 2016, 04:35:00 PM]
    Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
    « Reply #114 on: December 17, 2016, 04:35:00 PM »
    I haven't replied in a while but the elemental clothing was sorta, my baby, on discord anyway.

    Now that I've seen the conversation I throw in some thoughts.

    1 Hairpin Change. It wasn't mentioned but Hairpin getting the Half Elemental means that Faith teams don't have to rely on two slots to provide Holy/Dark Holy protection. This hurts the Dark/Holy meta that has exploded with Bizen Boat and the hybrid classes. (Geo/Sam) and their access to easy holy boosting.

    2 Earth Clothes losing strength earth. This hurts monks. It was geared towards reducing monks a bit in the EASE of synergizing with other units. If we gave one additional headband to the monk that say, boosted Wind and Earth and then returned Aura blast to wind an made it cone AOE. Monks have two elemental AOE options that punish teams that clump up, and are then forced to choose offense or defense with their headbands. That also only boosts one -Ton and doesn't make monks any scarier at anything else while allowing them to best utilize punch art.

    3 Dark/Holy/Excaliber- Excaliber should be one handed and not able to be two handed. If it is the Arthurian blade of legend it is perfectly balanced and fast as lightning.

    Dark and Holy teams with out access to Shield and Robes an Helmets can't easily boost it... Who does this impact that would use it? Does it make Geomancers squishy? Yes. Does it make samurai squishy to boost dark? Yes. Does this ruin a few builds... I didn't see any with a quick glance. It limited design in some areas, but the proliferation of Hybrid builds have overshadowed the base MA/PA classes this patch. Bard excluded.

    I currently am suffering the "head cold from hell." But if you have other points or counter arguments I will get back to you ASAP. :)


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    Gaignun [Posts: 528]
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    • [March 29, 2017, 04:30:39 PM]
    Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
    « Reply #115 on: March 29, 2017, 04:30:39 PM »
    I have had some time to play around with 1.41. I like many of the changes. However, there are a few things that are nagging me:

    Cheer Up
    I think that this skill could use an AoE buff (like Yell) to make it more useful.

    Refute
    Was the accuracy of this skill always (MA+55)%?

    Battle Orders & Pathos Speech
    Currently underwhelming in comparison to their Sing predecessors for several reasons:
    • Lower success rate than Sing (<66%) even under optimal conditions (e.g., 15+ MA and Best compatibility)
    • Does not target the user
    • Is not a performing skill, so it does not continue to charge after being executed.
    I never felt that the Sing skills were particularly powerful to begin with, so these changes are particularly discouraging for me.

    Excalibur
    What happened to this weapon? It took a big WP nerf, and now it is only worth using in combination with the Two Hand support ability. The Grand Cross Excalibur build is no more.

    +1 Move on Samurai
    I understand that the +1 Move tremendously helps the male melee Samurai out, but it helps the female Draw Out samurai just as much.  Before we had to settle for Draw Out Geomancers if we wanted 4 base Move. Now we can stick with Samurai and use their secondary skill slot for whatever we please.  Female Samurai have become much more effective as a result (and they were already pretty effective to begin with).  This is just something to keep an eye on.

    And speaking of Draw Out...

    Nerf Bizen Boat
    MA*8, element-boostable, BrFa-piercing damage is too high.  The synergy of Bizen Boat and Crystal Helm on the now fleet-footed Samurai is incredible.
    Chirijiraden took a damage hit from MA*9 to MA*8. Bizen Boat should take a hit, too, if only to keep Draw Out internally balanced.


    Peacemaker
    I am puzzled over why Stone Gun got its one-handed property back. Stone Gun was made Force-2H because it eclipsed crossbows. The new Peacemaker with Attack UP beats Gastrafitis with Concentrate hands down: Peacemaker delivers similar damage, but requires none of the PA stacking that Gastrafitis does. If Peacemaker remained Forced-2H, at least you'd have to give up your shield for this extra equipment freedom.

    Spellguns
    I am sure I will take heat for this, but I miss the fire, ice, and lightning spell guns. These three guns served a unique role: Healing high-faith friendly targets with high M-EV.  As a bonus, these guns could trigger Counter Magic, so with the right equipment the spellgunner could also heal herself in the process. On the flipside, White Robes were effective at defending against these spellguns. Flare Gun feels a little lackluster in comparison: It cannot be used for friendly healing, and it cannot be mitigated by White Robe. Perhaps Flare Gun is a slightly more consistent offensive weapon, but it is not nearly as versatile as its predecessors.
    Andrew [Posts: 211]
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    • [March 29, 2017, 05:44:15 PM]
    Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
    « Reply #116 on: March 29, 2017, 05:44:15 PM »
    Heya, Gaignun, it's been a while!  Thanks for taking the time to update your team-building tool.


    CHEER UP
    I would be okay with it gaining some form of AoE.  2 range three-directions?  Should it affect the user, as well?

    REFUTE
    Its accuracy has been MA+55 since 1.39c, at the very least.  While it isn't exactly reliable, it *does* dispel everything!  Despite this, I'd be fine with a small accuracy increase, like +5.

    BATTLE ORDERS AND PATHOS SPEECH
    We just talked about it in Discord.  What would you think of MA+45% accuracy and 6 CT?  Unlike the old songs/dances, Short Charge can reduce the CT of these two skills; so, with these adjustments, you could have a 3 CT and 70%~ accuracy Battle Orders/Pathos Speech kicking around for your team, putting them on par with (or even better than) the old songs.  Mind you, the AI's low priority for using these skills hampers their usefulness on smaller maps.

    EXCALIBUR
    The Genji Shield's +1 PA and Darkness immunity offsets the WP decrease, which still makes it great for Grand Cross funsies.  Yeah, you have more P-Ev because of the shield, but most Grand Cross units don't always need healing, and again, Darkness immunity FTW.  In essence, it's now the knight sword, holy-elemental version of the Giant Axe.

    +1 MOVE ON SAMURAI / NERF BIZEN BOAT
    For a short period during 141 development, Samurai were at 8/10 MA due to receiving buffs in other areas.  However, some players disagreed with the MA nerf, and after some lengthy debating, their MA was brought back up.  Would you be fine with Bizen Boat if Samurai had their MA brought back down to 8/10 MA again, or do you feel like Bizen Boat itself would need to be nerfed instead/as well?

    PEACEMAKER
    I full-heartedly agree with you on this one.  I feel like both it *and* the Flare Gun don't need shield access.  They gained shield access because players wanted for shield access to be consistent for guns, but there wasn't much of an argument made for this change.  I would be fine with both of these weapons going back to being forced two-hands.

    SPELLGUNS
    Ultimately, we decided that it was their elemental property that made them so deadly, due to elemental strengthening being an extra multiplier that pushed their damage over the top.  Yes, you could've went White Robe to mitigate their damage, but the units that didn't suffered big time.  The Flare Gun is our compromise for keeping this kind of weapon in the game.  It's still capable of dealing great damage (especially when combined with MAU/Faith), and is a great choice for taking out the legion of low-Brave mages wandering about.


    - Andrew
    White Knight Wiegraf [Posts: 257]
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    • [March 29, 2017, 05:55:28 PM]
    Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
    « Reply #117 on: March 29, 2017, 05:55:28 PM »
    EXCALIBUR
    The Genji Shield's +1 PA and Darkness immunity offsets the WP decrease, which still makes it great for Grand Cross funsies.  Yeah, you have more P-Ev because of the shield, but most Grand Cross units don't always need healing, and again, Darkness immunity FTW.  In essence, it's now the knight sword, holy-elemental version of the Giant Axe.

    I'd like to clarify that Grand Cross will disregard your own S-EV unless you have Awareness. In other words, an attack on yourself will default to a back attack. So only 25% of the unit's C-EV plus the A-EV will count.

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  • Gaignun [Posts: 528]
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    • [March 30, 2017, 03:12:08 PM]
    Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
    « Reply #118 on: March 30, 2017, 03:12:08 PM »
    Thank you for the quick response as always, Andrew!

    CHEER UP
    A 3 direction AoE would be awesome, even if its JP cost must go up by ~50 to compensate.

    REFUTE
    Its accuracy dropped awhile ago, huh? +5% accuracy would be lovely if only to keep up the pace of matches. (Watching a Mediator spend 2~3 turns trying to remove a status ailment on a friendly unit is a little wearing.)

    BATTLE SPEECH
    MA+45% accuracy sounds OK with me. If it comes to pass that this accuracy boost enables extreme XA stacking strategies, we could even keep its accuracy low at MA+35%, but remove its CT.

    EXCALIBUR
    I see. Though it might no longer be the best GC weapon, I suppose it's not so bad, as you said.

    SAMURAI BOAT
    It depends on what we want, I suppose. Dropping Bizen Boat's multiplier nerfs Bizen Boat. Dropping Samurai's MA nerfs Samurai, but keeps Bizen Boat as the go-to powerhouse skill.  Seeing that Samurai took an HP hit this patch, I'm leaning toward the former option.

    SPELLGUNS
    You're certainly not wrong about the elemental strengthening. I just never felt that they were terribly powerful in their last form before being removed in spite of that (4 Range and lower raw damage than Stone Gun - before Pilgrimage kicks in, anyway). Oh well.  There is always Healing Gun.  (Even a hypothetical Demi or Demi 2 gun would be nice. This gun would have the ability to heal, deal damage, and be Counter Magicked as before, but wouldn't have the same runaway damage problem.)
    Andrew [Posts: 211]
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    • [April 06, 2017, 02:41:11 PM]
    Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
    « Reply #119 on: April 06, 2017, 02:41:11 PM »
    You were definitely onto something about Excalibur.  RavenOfRazgriz recently checked Arena out, and he gave us shit about this weapon, lol :P.  He suggested for it to go back to being 14 WP and forced two-hands, but have elemental strengthening be replaced by +1 Speed to make it easier for paladins and male mystic knights to get to the higher Speed levels, while still dealing okay damage.  Since Swift Plate now blocks Haste, this could be an interesting and effective way to buff Excalibur.
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