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silentkaster [Posts: 542]
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  • [September 23, 2016, 03:53:34 PM]
Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
« Reply #80 on: September 23, 2016, 03:53:34 PM »
Well, with the proposed change of Immune: Innocent going to Aegis Shield, I wouldn't mind the current Secular Shield becoming an Immune: Blind shield so that you now have the choice. It gives players a lot of choices. Do they want to absorb the element, add PA, Strengthen the element or get Blind Immunity with their shield slot? It could just be renamed the Bronze Shield if needing a name.

You've stepped in puddles less shallow than me.
Gaignun [Posts: 529]
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  • [September 23, 2016, 07:51:04 PM]
Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
« Reply #81 on: September 23, 2016, 07:51:04 PM »
I can get behind that.  Something like

Bronze Shield: 15 PEv, 15 MEv, Immune: Blind

PEv is boosted by 5 to put the shield on par with the other options.  We can discuss the exact Ev values later.  Apart from Grand Cross, the shield can also be used to counter Blind Rage, etc.
« Last Edit: September 23, 2016, 07:56:17 PM by Gaignun »
Gaignun [Posts: 529]
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  • [October 01, 2016, 04:58:51 AM]
Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
« Reply #82 on: October 01, 2016, 04:58:51 AM »
Apologies for the double post.

How might we obtain consensus on changes for the next patch?  There are currently a ton of suggestions in the suggestions list as of 25 September. Many of these suggestions are incompatible.  (Shuriken alone has four separate suggestions.) Still many more are contingent on the implementation of others.  It would be infeasible to vote on each and every suggestion.

Might I suggest we isolate the skills, equipment, and jobs in most dire need of change and focus on only those in the next patch?  Smaller matters, as well as matters that might require extensive work (e.g., creating new active and RSM skills), could be relegated to a future patch.
Lol Whut?
dw6561 [Posts: 253]
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  • [October 02, 2016, 03:39:42 AM]
Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
« Reply #83 on: October 02, 2016, 03:39:42 AM »
I agree. We are really just suggesting things like crazy because we get inspiration and ideas, but we need to weed out the actual important stuff from the creative "this would be cool" ideas. I don't think the suggestions list is really getting us anywhere anymore, it's kinda just there. I keep saying that we need to establish a priority cue, but it's difficult when we keep suggesting things and don't do anything with them.

Here's a list of what I, personally, feel we need to take a look at for the next patch. I had a rant typed up about how we need a new system but I don't want to be too strict...

My list is in this format:

Jobs: If a job needs something about it changed, like equipment/stats/etc, put it here
Skill Sets: If a skill set has skills that need to be looked at, list them and those skills here
Weapons: Put any weapons that need changes here
Shields: Put any shields that need changes here
Armor: Put any armor that needs changes here
Accessories: Put any accessories that need changes here
Statuses: Put statuses that need their protection/infliction/attributes/etc re-evaluated here


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    Shintroy [Posts: 475]
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    • [October 02, 2016, 06:34:24 AM]
    Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
    « Reply #84 on: October 02, 2016, 06:34:24 AM »
    The suggestion list is pretty flawed since it leads to bias and lead to unnecessary arguing. 140 worked because it was a community effort. There's no need for leaders or any hierarchy.

    Some day my people will be free.
    Gaignun [Posts: 529]
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    • [October 02, 2016, 05:03:18 PM]
    Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
    « Reply #85 on: October 02, 2016, 05:03:18 PM »
    Might as well post what I believe are priorities as well.  I'll intentionally keep this short:


    Other changes people think are essential are fine, too.
    « Last Edit: October 02, 2016, 05:11:48 PM by Gaignun »
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    gatebuster202 [Posts: 313]
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    • [October 03, 2016, 04:14:06 PM]
    Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
    « Reply #86 on: October 03, 2016, 04:14:06 PM »
    I like all of Gaignun's suggestions. The only one I could add to that list... Change 4 Clothes
    Black Costume   100   10   Absorb: Dark, Fire
    Mirage Vest   100   10   Absorb: Holy, Wind
    Rubber Suit   100   10   Absorb: Lighting, Earth
    Aqua Suit   100   10   Absorb: Ice, Water
    Replaces current elemental Clothing

    Gives a balanced approach to Elemental Equipment and allows more interesting builds.

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    silentkaster [Posts: 542]
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    • [October 03, 2016, 07:32:08 PM]
    Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
    « Reply #87 on: October 03, 2016, 07:32:08 PM »
    For a patch between major releases (unless we're jumping right into the next full version, which I don't think we are) I think we can be pretty concise. Having taken a look at the tournament and even what many melee teams are doing, I've tried to narrow it down to about ten changes for what I think should be in. I'm not saying that many of the other ideas aren't interesting, should or should not be implemented or whatnot, but I think we should be pretty limited as to what we introduce to the next patch. A reminder that 1.4a didn't get many changes from 1.4.


    You've stepped in puddles less shallow than me.
    Back and Eventing. (Slowly)
    gatebuster202 [Posts: 313]
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    • [October 03, 2016, 09:02:28 PM]
    Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
    « Reply #88 on: October 03, 2016, 09:02:28 PM »
    Space for new Guns suggestion

    To Spellguns. We have "found" six untapped weapon slots. The Balls and Shirikens from Vanilla. WKW has tested them, and they can be used for Arena. We can turn them into Spellguns or other weapons. My suggestion is that they either be 4 range with one less weapon power and function as one handed books, or stay as 5 range guns and lose 2 WP

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    Reks [Posts: 682]
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    • [October 04, 2016, 06:22:43 AM]
    Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
    « Reply #89 on: October 04, 2016, 06:22:43 AM »
    Space for new Guns suggestion

    To Spellguns. We have "found" six untapped weapon slots. The Balls and Shirikens from Vanilla. WKW has tested them, and they can be used for Arena. We can turn them into Spellguns or other weapons. My suggestion is that they either be 4 range with one less weapon power and function as one handed books, or stay as 5 range guns and lose 2 WP

    I would rather see weapons with fewer selections gain an extra option or two over seeing more spellguns.
    Gaignun [Posts: 529]
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    • [October 04, 2016, 09:58:32 AM]
    Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
    « Reply #90 on: October 04, 2016, 09:58:32 AM »
    @ gatebuster:

    I like those clothes suggestions.

    @ silentkaster:

    I like your suggestions, too.  I would like to make two comments:

    Holy/Dark Holy damage: Would it not be more consistent to make Dark Holy one point weaker than Holy?  Dark Holy is Nether Holy in all but name, and all Nether spells on Black Magic are one point weaker than their variants.  This is done to balance the safety of low brave with the risks of high faith.

    Holy/Dark strengthening robe: I don't find the MP boost of a Holy/Dark strengthening robe a problem, given that we've had Black Robe for ages without any trouble. Nevertheless, making it clothes is OK with me, too.  No strong opinions here.
    "..." - Gogo
    Shintroy [Posts: 475]
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    • [October 04, 2016, 05:07:21 PM]
    Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
    « Reply #91 on: October 04, 2016, 05:07:21 PM »
    Dark Holy being as strong as Holy makes just as much sense as Holy on black magic.😂👌

    Some day my people will be free.
    Back and Eventing. (Slowly)
    gatebuster202 [Posts: 313]
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    • [October 05, 2016, 01:09:45 AM]
    Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
    « Reply #92 on: October 05, 2016, 01:09:45 AM »
    Reks, WKW and I were discussing Spellbooks casting the respective Ice/Fire/Lightning spell, leaving gun with just four options. The "books" being sourced from slots previously believed unusable. This would leave us with three new slots in general or three new guns. Ranged weapons in general don't have as much love as Melee options. I haven't composed my non-elemental gun thoughts, but when I do I will let this page know.

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    Reks [Posts: 682]
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    • [October 10, 2016, 02:14:36 PM]
    Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
    « Reply #93 on: October 10, 2016, 02:14:36 PM »
    Aight, so I've given it a lot of thought, and

    Well, I really don't have much of an opinion on many of the proposed changes. I DO agree where things -need- a change (Dancer), but for the most part I can't come up with a cohesive list of my own prioritized change offerings.

    HOWEVER

    I do have opinions towards - surprise surprise - Squires.

    So, without further ado, a few things that came to mind during the dull period at work. (which is, in hindsight, pretty much all of it)

    And do be aware that, yes, I am biased towards Squires a bit, so take what I say with a slight grain of salt (and not the whole damn shaker.)
    Trying to be funny here, sorry if I sound a bit aggressive.

    Gaignun [Posts: 529]
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    • [October 12, 2016, 09:40:03 AM]
    Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
    « Reply #94 on: October 12, 2016, 09:40:03 AM »
    I am fully in agreement with elevating Basic Skill to the level of... every other skill set.

    Adjusting female Squires' PA and MA: If we change the female Squire's PA/MA to 7/9, then I believe we would incidentally change the male Squire's PA/MA to 9/7.  This co-dependence is why we currently have so many (generally) useless jobs in Arena (e.g., male wizard, female monk).

    Bullrush: Oddly enough, I myself have considered making Bullrush unevadable.  Both this and making it cancel Protect and Shell are good ideas to me.  If Protect and Shell inherit the Refresh status as a priority flag (so that the AI uses Protect and Shell at the start of battle as they ought to), then Bullrush will have a solid role in the metagame.

    Heal: In addition to adding Cancel: Undead, I would also love to see this skill receive +1 Range to put it on par with Wish.

    Yell: Absolutely in favour of a redesign.  Silentkaster's critical-only heal skill is a nice idea.

    Wish: I agree that this skill is the worst method of revival.  Having it ignore the Undead status wouldn't change this, but at least it would give it a niche application on Undead teams.  Perhaps we could turn Wish into the proposed Phoenix Pinion skill as an alternative.

    Ultima: I think the problem has more to do with Chiri being overpowered than Ultima being underpowered.  Chiri walks all over not only Ultima, but Muramasa, as well.  If I had it my way, I would drop Chiri's damage from MA*9 to MA*8 and its JP cost from 400 to 200~300.  Then, Muramasa would become the sole MA*9 Draw Out skill.  Comparison of Ultima and Muramasa is much more charitable towards Ultima.
    Barren [Posts: 2574]
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    • [November 03, 2016, 10:13:21 PM]
    Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
    « Reply #95 on: November 03, 2016, 10:13:21 PM »
    I was thinking about shuriken today and even though I think speed is its original formula for damage, if it needs a buff then why not do speed * 10 (or give it 0 MP cost so that way you can stack speed).

    If it has to revert to its PA formula again, at least keep it single hit and doesn't phase through walls

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    Gaignun [Posts: 529]
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    • [November 21, 2016, 06:25:06 PM]
    Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
    « Reply #96 on: November 21, 2016, 06:25:06 PM »
    Here is something that has been kicking around the back of my mind for awhile.

    RSM system redesign
    How would people feel about replacing the RSM system with a "RSXM" system? The "X" in this new system stands for "Equip X."

    Currently, we have seven "Equip X" abilities.  In spite of this, only 20 units used an Equip X ability during Season 5, and over half of those (11) was Equip Shield.  I believe the reason why Equip X is hardly used is because its opportunity cost almost never outweighs its benefits.  When you use Equip X, you receive a very slight and/or team-specific bonus.  Meanwhile, you pass up on much better support abilities such as (Magic) Attack/Defense UP.

    In this new system, we would group all Equip X skills into a single, new ability class.  Other underwhelming abilities (such as Maintenance) can also be thrown into this new class.  Reaction, support, and movement ability classes would remain unchanged.  Then, units can equip up to three abilities as before, but only one ability from each of the (now) four classes.  In other words, players can choose to sacrifice not only their support slot, but also their reaction or movement slots to accommodate an Equip X ability.

    Implementing this new system should be possible without any ASM tinkering.  Right now, RSM abilities seem to be able to be scrambled and still work as intended.  So, the game should be able to handle a unit with, say, Attack UP in the R slot, Move +1 in the S slot, and Equip Heavy Blade in the M slot without any hiccups.  All that is required is the consensus of the community.

    This redesign ought to open up plenty of new, unconventional designs.  Attack UP, Excalibur Grand Cross Monk? No problem!  Short Charge, Equip Armor tank mage? You got it!  Of course, these unconventional designs will come at the cost of the R or M slot.
    Lol Whut?
    dw6561 [Posts: 253]
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    • [November 22, 2016, 06:35:04 AM]
    Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
    « Reply #97 on: November 22, 2016, 06:35:04 AM »
    RSXM System counter argument matches (and further reinforcement that spell guns need to be changed :P):

    https://www.twitch.tv/dw6561/v/102629903

    Team used:


    Teams fought:
    Gaignun's season 5 team
    Silentkaster's 100% accuracy
    Dokurider's Oregon Trails

    • Modding version: PSX
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    Andrew [Posts: 214]
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    • [November 22, 2016, 06:47:15 AM]
    Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
    « Reply #98 on: November 22, 2016, 06:47:15 AM »
    Instead of RSXM, what if we only had three Equip X support skills: Equip Armor, Equip Shield, and Equip Weapon?  Equip Armor would allow access to all armour except for headbands, Equip Shield would function just how it does currently, and Equip Weapon would allow access to *any* weapon.

    Nobody uses Equip Light Gear for the clothes+weapons combos, as they may as well just use a ninja for this purpose (honestly, it's pretty much Equip Ninja minus Two Swords, lol.)  If I see Equip Light Gear in action, it's usually for the Hidden Knife on mages.

    Equip Magegear is rarely used; and, if it *is* used, it's for the weapons it has to offer.

    Mind you, if we did this, we would have to adjust what jobs have which RSMs, but I don't think it would be all that troublesome.
    Gaignun [Posts: 529]
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    • [November 22, 2016, 07:41:04 PM]
    Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
    « Reply #99 on: November 22, 2016, 07:41:04 PM »
    Thanks for the concept matches, dw.  You raise some good points!  An RSXM system would be hugely beneficial for units like monster truck monks with pointed sticks and mages with Hidden Knife.  As you kindly demonstrated, the current jobs and equipment aren't balanced to accommodate such a system.

    Now that I think about it, opening up combos like Equip Spellgun/Magic Attack UP/Pilgrimage to every unit in the game would suck.  I hope spellguns get changed regardless, though.

    Instead of RSXM, what if we only had three Equip X support skills: Equip Armor, Equip Shield, and Equip Weapon?  Equip Armor would allow access to all armour except for headbands, Equip Shield would function just how it does currently, and Equip Weapon would allow access to *any* weapon.

    I am personally fine with this. 
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