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Bladegrasp1997 [Posts: 62]
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  • [January 09, 2015, 03:52:55 PM]
Replace animated game sprites with 3d models?
« on: January 09, 2015, 03:52:55 PM »
Hi everyone, I just recently found out about this site through a friend who was playing your modded version. Needless to say I was blown away by the all the custom characters and abilities. As the title suggest, would it be possible to replace the ingame 2d animation files for each character with 3d animated versions? Seeming as how the game engine is already set in a 3d environment, along with certain abilities and spells that use 3d effects. If so, I would be more than willing to make the models and animations needed for this.
French Maid
Xifanie (Webmistress) [Posts: 4398]
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  • [January 09, 2015, 06:24:34 PM]
Re: Replace animated game sprites with 3d models?
« Reply #1 on: January 09, 2015, 06:24:34 PM »
Sprites?

Which console do you want to work on this for? Playstation would be so restricted that it would be the most pointless thing to attempt ever: You'd just end up spending lots of your time creating something that is far uglier (the sprites are tiny as hell after all), requiring far more processing speed, more RAM, less VRAM...

If you want to work on 3D, I'd recommend sticking to what is already in 3D, like programming in some effects and the maps. Our map editor right now isn't all that great (ganesha), and little is understood of effects even at this point.

And really, you took a screenshot of your 3D model with your camera instead of printscreen...? Why.

    • Modding version: PSX
  • <R999> My target market is not FFT mod players
    <Raijinili> remember that? it was awful
    Bladegrasp1997 [Posts: 62]
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    • [January 09, 2015, 06:45:41 PM]
    Re: Replace animated game sprites with 3d models?
    « Reply #2 on: January 09, 2015, 06:45:41 PM »
    I'm sorry, I meant main character models(ramza,delita,gafgarion,jobs,etc). I took the picture awhile back and used it because it was the only pic available to show what kind of models I had in mind. I hope it wasn't against forum rules. If you need help in the effects department I would like to see what could be done. I'm not talking about high poly models with tons of detail, i was thinking of something like the ones in ff7. Would the ps1 engine be able to handle low poly models such as those? Would you mind if I at least tried it out? If not for ps1, what about PC?
    « Last Edit: January 09, 2015, 06:52:53 PM by Bladegrasp1997 »
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    Xifanie (Webmistress) [Posts: 4398]
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    • [January 09, 2015, 07:33:26 PM]
    Re: Replace animated game sprites with 3d models?
    « Reply #3 on: January 09, 2015, 07:33:26 PM »
    (This is Toshiko posting as Xifanie because Xifanie's laptop is closer and I am feeling just that lazy right now.)

    Replacing 2D sprites with 3D models wouldn't be technically feasible. Aside from requiring a messy hack job to get the game to pull 3D models instead of sprites, not to mention finding space to appropriate animations for said models, you're also running into physical limitations of the hardware. While textures would use less VRAM than sprites, you wouldn't be able to fit models with any sort of detail on screen when coupled with the maps. Even FFVII low-poly no-texture models are asking quite a bit, and would (in our opinion) look worse with the low (256x240) screen resolution regardless. You could afford one or two 3D character models in very low detail on certain maps, but you definitely could not replicate 5 on 5 battles, much less a random battle with a horde of chocobos.

    You didn't do anything against the rules, it's just that your suggestion really overestimates the hardware capability by a substantial margin. For some maps, even a battle with two parties of cubes would cause problems. We certainly aren't going to mind you looking into it, of course - the more people poking around at the inner workings of the game the better - but your idea as it stands would only be possible on another platform entirely. You might possibly be able to make it work on PSP (assuming low poly, no texture), but you're running into a host of other problems going that route, not the least of which being that WotL isn't well-documented.

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  • <R999> My target market is not FFT mod players
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    Elric (Overseer) [Posts: 4065]
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    • [January 09, 2015, 08:06:07 PM]
    Re: Replace animated game sprites with 3d models?
    « Reply #4 on: January 09, 2015, 08:06:07 PM »
    Hi everyone, I just recently found out about this site through a friend who was playing your modded version.

    I have nothing else to add to what Xifiko said. Just wondering what mod you are refering to since we have many of them. FFHacktics is the name of a site, not a mod :P

    • Modding version: PSX
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    Bladegrasp1997 [Posts: 62]
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    • [January 09, 2015, 08:40:37 PM]
    Re: Replace animated game sprites with 3d models?
    « Reply #5 on: January 09, 2015, 08:40:37 PM »
    What about porting it to a similar ps1 game? I would suggest front mission 3 because it already uses 3d characters and has the same turn based battle system. Problem is I have no idea how to edit the game files or extract them. If not another ps1 game, I have some experience with visual c++ would that be a good engine for what I'm trying to do? I don't know which mod, but it had new jobs and characters I have never seen before.
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    Xifanie (Webmistress) [Posts: 4398]
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    • [January 09, 2015, 10:43:06 PM]
    Re: Replace animated game sprites with 3d models?
    « Reply #6 on: January 09, 2015, 10:43:06 PM »
    We're probably the wrong people to ask on that one, as I'm not sure if anyone here mods Front Mission 3. If there is a Frontier Mission 3 hacking community, I'd suggest to start there. Otherwise, I'm not even sure if it's a good call to send you to qhimm since they haven't done anything with FFT, either but there are a few there who successfully modded actors (but only on the PC version).

    • Modding version: PSX
  • <R999> My target market is not FFT mod players
    <Raijinili> remember that? it was awful
    Bladegrasp1997 [Posts: 62]
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    • [May 28, 2015, 10:59:33 PM]
    Re: Replace animated game sprites with 3d models?
    « Reply #7 on: May 28, 2015, 10:59:33 PM »
    What about converting the 3d models to png? Would something like this work?
    Bladegrasp1997 [Posts: 62]
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    • [May 28, 2015, 11:05:58 PM]
    Re: Replace animated game sprites with 3d models?
    « Reply #8 on: May 28, 2015, 11:05:58 PM »
    Full model not yet textured yet.
    Bladegrasp1997 [Posts: 62]
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    • [July 12, 2015, 04:58:10 PM]
    Re: Replace animated game sprites with 3d models?
    « Reply #9 on: July 12, 2015, 04:58:10 PM »
    Still trying.
    Cheetah [Posts: 3656]
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    • [July 14, 2015, 05:04:52 PM]
    Re: Replace animated game sprites with 3d models?
    « Reply #10 on: July 14, 2015, 05:04:52 PM »
    I'm impressed with your development in doing 3D modeling, that is a useful skill. I'm not seeing a way that you could use them in any kind of mod, but it still makes for good fan art.

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    Bladegrasp1997 [Posts: 62]
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    • [July 14, 2015, 11:04:52 PM]
    Re: Replace animated game sprites with 3d models?
    « Reply #11 on: July 14, 2015, 11:04:52 PM »
    Thanks, I've tried finding a Front mission 3/Front mission 4 mod to port them to since they have a similar game engine. But so far I've had no luck, I even tried to find a Gladius mod but there is none. For now I'm looking into finding a coder who would know how to start with editing files for those three games, if not I've heard Unity is a good engine to try and make something like this.
    Bladegrasp1997 [Posts: 62]
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    • [July 18, 2015, 05:14:58 PM]
    Re: Replace animated game sprites with 3d models?
    « Reply #12 on: July 18, 2015, 05:14:58 PM »
    I was able to get a copy digital copy of front mission 3 and managed to convert it to an ISO. I noticed that the majority of the files BIN. Is this the same file type that FFT uses? If so, would someone be willing to point me in the right direction in showing me how to edit these files?
    Toshiko
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    • [July 19, 2015, 04:46:21 AM]
    Re: Replace animated game sprites with 3d models?
    « Reply #13 on: July 19, 2015, 04:46:21 AM »
    You can't piecemeal together code from unrelated games any easier than you can make a chicken give birth to an octopus. Yes, they're both animals, and they both live on Earth, but they're as similar in practice as a charcoal grill and a water pump. It's easier to port WotL code to PSX, and even that is Frankenstein's nightmare.

    • Modding version: PSX
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    Bladegrasp1997 [Posts: 62]
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    • [July 19, 2015, 02:54:54 PM]
    Re: Replace animated game sprites with 3d models?
    « Reply #14 on: July 19, 2015, 02:54:54 PM »
    I'm sorry :|, I don't really know too much about coding and figured someone with more knowledge than myself would know if the files could be unpacked and edited. Good analogies, I had no idea that the coding for both games was so different. I figured since they were both made by square enix and have the same basic battle system that there might be some similarities. If I were to upload the files somewhere would you or maybe someone else be willing to take a look at the coding to see if anything can be done? If not, would a hex editor be useful? I've tried various extractors and modding tools but I cannot seem to open any of the files. As I've stated before I know very little about coding and would just like to see what (if anything) could be done.
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    Xifanie (Webmistress) [Posts: 4398]
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    • [July 19, 2015, 04:53:49 PM]
    Re: Replace animated game sprites with 3d models?
    « Reply #15 on: July 19, 2015, 04:53:49 PM »
    You really don't have ANY idea how difficult modding is, do you?

    It's not about "just looking at some code". There's no code: it's compiled. It takes ages to make heads or tails out of it.
    It is literally impossible for anyone who doesn't already know the game intimately to figure out anything about it modding wise. You have to know what you're searching for before you have any chance of finding it.

    Another thing: Wishful thinking without hard work will never take you anywhere. If you expect someone to do everything for you, you're in for a roller-coaster ride that never goes uphill. I'm not saying this to discourage you, (actually discouraging people sometimes is good because they might attempt the impossible) but unless you're willing to jump head in and revise your expectations, you won't be getting anywhere.

    Like that converting into spritesheets thing? Yeah, forget about that. It's actually quite amusing that you think your 3D models would look better than the original sprite art in that format. You also completely ignored the palette restriction and the resolution (which is 256x488 for a regular spritesheet).

    Let me put it this way: To us, you are some random guy who's asking us to help you reach the moon when we don't even have a plane able to fly for more than 30 seconds yet, much less a space rocket. Actually, that analogy is bad because we know space travel is possible. Your original idea? That's debatable. Even if it would be possible it would be far too much work for what it's worth. The effort and time you put into making those 3D models? Multiply that by roughly 1000-10000 times and you'll have an idea of how much work you're asking others to put into that project of yours.

    • Modding version: PSX
  • <R999> My target market is not FFT mod players
    <Raijinili> remember that? it was awful
    Bladegrasp1997 [Posts: 62]
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    • [July 19, 2015, 06:05:19 PM]
    Re: Replace animated game sprites with 3d models?
    « Reply #16 on: July 19, 2015, 06:05:19 PM »
    Like I said, I don't know much about the games coding or formats. I'm just trying to find a starting point. Thank you for taking the time to explain these things to me and letting me know how complicated something like this will be.
    Bladegrasp1997 [Posts: 62]
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    • [July 22, 2015, 01:44:44 AM]
    Re: Replace animated game sprites with 3d models?
    « Reply #17 on: July 22, 2015, 01:44:44 AM »
    I may have found a way. This may apply to all ps1 games in general.
    http://www.theisozone.com/downloads/playstation/tools/ps1-psx-hack-tools-v20/

    BootEdit v2.0b------------------ change the standard logo on the boot screen
    CDmage v1.02 -------------------- Working with images without rebuilding
    SONY CD-ROM Generator v1.3 ------ Official utility from SONY to create PSX STR-XA discs (need to create ccs files)
    Revenge Of StripISO v1.04------- A set of tools for creating PSX-XA RAW (. Bin \. Cue) images of ccs files
    CDGenPS2 v3.0------------------- Utility to create a standard iso 2048 PSX \ PS2 homebrew images (no STR \ XA)
    CD Image Converter v1.1--------- Program for conversion "curves" of images in RAW PSX-XA
    ECCRegen v1.41------------------ utility to regenerate the EDC \ ECC zones PSX images
    ePSXe v1.7---------------------- The most common PSX emulator
    ePSXeRUS v1.7------------------- Same as ePSXe. Russifitsirovanaya version
    ePSXeCutor v1.06---------------- Utility to configure the emulator ePSXe
    GRIDFIX v1.0-------------------- Utility for licensing RAW PSX images
    Movie Converter v3.4------------ converter AVI \ WAV to STR \ XA and vice versa
    Movpack v1.6e------------------- wrapping multi-channel STR \ XA
    Munch v1.0---------------------- PSX disassembler
    PATCH-IT v2.01------------------ Patching way to work on the console
    Pcsx v1.0----------------------- PSX Emulator with trasirovkoy code
    PocketISO v2.0------------------ utility for compressing images
    PPF-O-Matic v3.0---------------- utility for patching images
    PSIcture v1.01------------------ utility to view \ convert images PSX
    PSmplay v0.4-------------------- Media Player with the disc PSX
    PSound v1.0--------------------- audio player with CDs PSX
    PSx CD-Gen v1.5.4--------------- Program for creating images PSX. Analogue CDGENPS2
    PSXeven v0.17b------------------ A good PSX emulator
    pSX v1.13----------------------- Great emulsion PSX
    PSX Game Edit v1.60------------- utility for virtual memory cards
    PSX Large Data Ripper v1.04----- Program for ripping games
    RSDTOOL v0.8b------------------- Utility to work with RSD files
    TIMTOOL v3.0-------------------- Utility to work with TIM files
    TIMUTIL v1.36pe----------------- utility to convert BMP to TIM and vice versa
    Timviewer v1.03b---------------- Excellent program for pulling out and inserting graphics TIM from any files
    Vabtool v0.3-------------------- Editor sound VAB \ SEQ files
    VirtualDub v1.8.8--------------- Driving in uncompressed AVI AVI Movie Converter for program
    XB Value Calculator v1.3-------- utility to calculate the value of scan code joystick PSX \ N64
    Toshiko
    Angel (Empress) [Posts: 1245]
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    • [July 22, 2015, 02:26:47 AM]
    Re: Replace animated game sprites with 3d models?
    « Reply #18 on: July 22, 2015, 02:26:47 AM »
    Awesome! So, now all you need to do is redraw every map to reduce the number of triangles per second, reduce the texture quality of every map texture in the game to free up enough VRAM for your character model textures, conjure up enough space for your modifications, rewrite the game engine to use 3D objects rather than sprites, implement animation routines for your character models, and then you're home free!

    Edit: I'm not saying this for the sake of being sarcastic, but because you're making yourself work exponentially harder than you need to. For 1/10,000th the effort, you could accomplish what you really want by just making a new game from scratch. Even making a new PlayStation game from scratch would be so much easier. You do not want to do this as a mod, you really do not. You don't even want to go borrowing code, because you're just boxing yourself into a very restrictive corner, trying to write a novel in haiku.
    « Last Edit: July 22, 2015, 02:47:02 AM by Toshiko »
    • Modding version: PSX
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    Bladegrasp1997 [Posts: 62]
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    • [July 22, 2015, 02:44:33 AM]
    Re: Replace animated game sprites with 3d models?
    « Reply #19 on: July 22, 2015, 02:44:33 AM »
    Thank you ;), I had no idea where to begin after finding a way to edit the files. I figured it would take me way longer to figure out what needed to be done. Are there any tutorials on editing or redrawing the maps? Front Mission 3 already uses 3d models for cut scenes so there might not be that much coding work. I already know a coder who might be able to work with the engine. And I'm already pretty good at animations, I might even be able to use the wanzer animations from the game.
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