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Suggestions  (Read 12614 times)
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The Puppet ---Master---
Elric (Overseer) [Posts: 3824]
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  • [September 03, 2016, 07:36:43 AM]
Re: Suggestions
« Reply #140 on: September 03, 2016, 07:36:43 AM »
So, you are saying that vanilla should be changed to not have Gafgarion surprise Ramza at Golgorand Execution Site, simply because people lose that battle a lot their first time? Hell, we should probably just kill him off at the first scene in Chapter 1 of vanilla right? Since we already know he is going to betray us in Chapter 2?

No.

That's not how games work. We aren't playing from -YOUR- perspective. We are playing from that of Ramza and co. This is why even though YOU get to see scenes with Delita and others without the 5 main characters and know a bit of backstory. That doesn't mean that they do.

Furthermore. How boring would games be if you ALWAYS knew exactly what was coming? You mentioned that you didn't want to read the wiki because you didn't want spoilers, but instead you want us to tell you exactly what the battle lineups will be before hand OR make them easy enough to beat even if you are poorly prepared??

I'm not trying to sound insulting. I just really don't think you even thought about that suggestion. Every single game with a save feature is capable of what you just mentioned...

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    somenoob [Posts: 3]
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    • [September 03, 2016, 08:24:58 AM]
    Re: Suggestions
    « Reply #141 on: September 03, 2016, 08:24:58 AM »
    Well, I'm not willing to continue this topics I think it finished and I'm also not trying to sound insulting.
    But seems something you misread about my opinions, so I'll just correct that as below.

    So, you are saying that vanilla should be changed to not have Gafgarion surprise Ramza at Golgorand Execution Site, simply because people lose that battle a lot their first time? Hell, we should probably just kill him off at the first scene in Chapter 1 of vanilla right? Since we already know he is going to betray us in Chapter 2?

    No.

    Of course, No.
    I didn't mean that extreme. I just said on another topic that I had an impression that series of story battles are difficult in a row after having decent story battles in JOT5, and on the opposite, I have impression that Vanilla has easy battles between difficult battles. So not saying/suggesting deleting difficult story battles completely. That what I meant.


    Furthermore. How boring would games be if you ALWAYS knew exactly what was coming?
    That is what I really feels.

     
    You mentioned that you didn't want to read the wiki because you didn't want spoilers, but instead you want us to tell you exactly what the battle lineups will be before hand
    I never meant I like to be told what battle lineups will be before hand. Never.

     
    OR make them easy enough to beat even if you are poorly prepared??
    Yes, but occationally, as in Vanilla, that is what I meant.
    And if you do so, the good tactical/strategic part with toughness of this mod would be spoiled so that I suggest implementing them in the another campaign, that what I said.


    Again, this my topic is finished.  But BTW, I really expect that later Chapter would be tougher than in Vanilla, especially Chapter 4, in Vanilla, that chapter was rather easy.
    « Last Edit: September 03, 2016, 08:46:46 AM by somenoob »
    The Puppet ---Master---
    Elric (Overseer) [Posts: 3824]
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    • [September 03, 2016, 08:44:43 AM]
    Re: Suggestions
    « Reply #142 on: September 03, 2016, 08:44:43 AM »
    I understand that, however, I feel there ARE enough easier battles, which is why I mentioned that I've only really heard about people having difficulty with Bariaus Hill, Sweegy Woods and 2 of the bosses, as well as a couple Randoms (which are being fixed)

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    KingUrameshi [Posts: 127]
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    • [September 04, 2016, 01:37:59 PM]
    Re: Suggestions
    « Reply #143 on: September 04, 2016, 01:37:59 PM »
    The thing I like about Jot5s difficulty is that it is noticeably different for the original while still retaining a great deal of balance as to not force the player to have to break the game to win (1.3 insane). I never really understood people when they would say Tactics is broken as shit when you had to go out of your way to break it. I remember playing the game for the first couple of times and would not get through Dorter without some JP grinding.  Jot5 definitely forces you to use all the skills the game has to offer rather than a few OP/expensive skills, and they do it not by nerfing or buffing skills but by make them more or less commonplace. Balancing the skills and their effectiveness in each battle is where the difficulty comes from and trying to increase it would force me to have to cheese it for the harder battles which was my main gripe with the 1.3 insane mod in that it was not fun to play.

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    Hyraldelita [Posts: 187]
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    • [September 04, 2016, 01:55:00 PM]
    Re: Suggestions
    « Reply #144 on: September 04, 2016, 01:55:00 PM »
    i personally found in jot5, that the start is extremely hard, but if you endure the "many" game over at the start XD then you get very strong skills, and it's not that hard anymore, more like enjoyable. It would be impossible to play for people who are completely NEW to FFT , but this mod is definitely not aimed to those people.
     
    Plus, "somenoob" Try to remeber that while doing a mob, or even a videogame from scrap , it will be ALWAYS IMPOSSIBLE to make everyone happy, it doesn't matter how much you work, someone will always have something to say about your work! XD

    I just hope they keep up the "hard" part of the game, because i'm afraid that once we get enough skill, "for veterans" the game will be as easy as vanilla. So even if i will be pissed and maybe i will want to give up, i hope the battle will be as stressfull as they were in the first chapter ahhaha.  (and that i will be able to get Delita in my party *-*)
    Nyzer [Posts: 679]
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    • [September 04, 2016, 05:40:34 PM]
    Re: Suggestions
    « Reply #145 on: September 04, 2016, 05:40:34 PM »
    Quote
    i personally found in jot5, that the start is extremely hard, but if you endure the "many" game over at the start XD then you get very strong skills, and it's not that hard anymore, more like enjoyable.

    IMO, it's kind of meant to serve as a slap to the face that breaks you of some bad habits in regular FFT where your actual Tactics involve recklessly zerg rushing your enemies with little regard for positioning or keeping near your support units, because only a very small percentage of battles actually feature enemies who bring something more threatening than autoattack to the table.

    Specifically: Ramza starts out just as strong of a melee fighter as the rest, but he's also the only one who starts out with a support ability. After that, almost every ability he can learn is a support ability.

    Link's in a similar situation. He's a bit more attack-oriented, but he still has ranged and support options that are worth cultivating. That's why he only has a single sword ability, but three ranged ones and three songs, as well as the option to switch his equipment on the fly. (In the rerelease, switching his weaponry won't even consume your turn.)

    Dante, too, has some very good versatility with his weaponry. Unlike Link, he can't switch Styles in combat, but his base job can easily adapt to whatever battles you have coming your way.
    - As a Swordmaster (his default), he's a strong DPS character. You can keep him there, but you don't have to, and I would strongly encourage you not to if you're looking to pick up more utility on your team.
    - Using a dagger to switch him to the Trickster and picking up those abilities suddenly gives him a ton of utility. He's got two ranged attack skills, one self-Quick skill, and a Regen/Defending skill that not only makes him tanky as hell, but also replenishes his MP, allowing him more freedom to use special abilities. You don't have to switch him to a utility character, but the option is there.
    - Using a crossbow to switch him to the Gunslinger makes him a strong DPS character, similar to the Swordmaster, but with the added benefit from attacking at range, which protects him from some harm.
    - Using a hammer to switch him to a Royalguard turns him into a very tanky unit and adds the ability to buff the party. 

    Snake is designed completely around the idea of being a utility character. He's meant for surprise attacks, gambler strikes, chasing down and finishing off weakened targets, or simply distracting foes and being protected from the consequences of it thanks to his high Move, invisibility, and/or self-healing potential.

    In fact, the only character designed to be a pure DPS character is Cloud. And considering the utility of Cross-Slash, even that's not 100% accurate.

    The idea of backing away from pure zerg DPS is also why jobs like Knight and Ranger have major utility (Knight gaining heavy support, Ranger gaining heavy debuffing) while their equivalent Jobs didn't in FFT. It's why Wizard comes with the potential to inflict status on most of their spells.

    It's also why the Chemist job suddenly becomes much more useful, instead of just having single-target heals and a billion different single-target cleanses. Sapling is powerful as hell, for example.

    Basically, support and utility actually become important parts of FFT in Journey of the Five. The opening battles are hard because they're supposed to teach you early on to go get those types of abilities, instead of spending all your JP on pure DPS stuff. When you leave Lionel Castle thinking "aw man, that would have been so much easier if I'd had more MP," you put a higher priority on, say, Saria's Song or Encourage. (Fun fact: the three of the Five who use MP in their base jobs all have at least one way of restoring their own MP in said jobs.)
    « Last Edit: September 04, 2016, 08:33:47 PM by nyzer »
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  • Tempest [Posts: 66]
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    • [September 05, 2016, 05:15:43 PM]
    Re: Suggestions
    « Reply #146 on: September 05, 2016, 05:15:43 PM »
    I both needed and admired that slap in the face to break old bad habits caused by an OP team in the old tactics and easy difficulty. First few battles really do force you to take things up a notch. Regardless of strategy though the beast master fight was quite brutal. At that stage in the game you Don't have the ability to level up your men elsewhere, or try different line ups or skill orientations. Its all just, lets hope i can kill that beast master, Chocobo, and Lamia before their teams utility out lasts mine.
    Guru [Posts: 181]
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    • [September 05, 2016, 07:27:49 PM]
    Re: Suggestions
    « Reply #147 on: September 05, 2016, 07:27:49 PM »
    Sorry I have to completely disagree with JOT5 being too hard. As someone who thinks it's not hard enough...I think it's a great middle ground. It's challenging at times, but no fight is ever impossible or boring. Sometimes you get crushed and have to rethink your strategies. That's good! It is a strategy RPG and, well requires strategy and thinking. I would cry if they completely nerfed the difficulty on the normal mode. Once there is an easy mode it would give you the option to play an easier mode first, then play normal mode on second play. Plus with the new marks and crafting system you will be able to make the game easier, all you'd have to do is spend some time collecting materials. I definitely don't think this is impossible for people who have never played FFT, I mean it's the same concept as FFT. Read skill descriptions, experiment and think before you act.

    I don't remember you guys talking about a new game+ either, but hey sounds awesome! I would love a hard mode ( hell mode  :mrgreen: ) someday too, but yeah I'm a challenge junky. You could even work on it years after the final release, if you decide to.

    Vanilla, IMO, was broken. I didn't go out of my way to break it either. It's just some characters and classes were better than others ( a lot better ). All it really took was leveling up in few OP classes(or vise versa), and vanilla was no longer even a challenge any more.
    Nyzer [Posts: 679]
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    • [September 05, 2016, 08:48:07 PM]
    Re: Suggestions
    « Reply #148 on: September 05, 2016, 08:48:07 PM »
    Quote
    Regardless of strategy though the beast master fight was quite brutal

    I never found that one hard though >_>

    It felt like it was a step up from other fights, but not horribly so. Kill the enemy healers, kill the enemy that uses AoE, be very careful about damaging the enemies that use Self-Destruct until you're ready for it (and then it turns out each of those will heal the other if they can, so you can take advantage of that to make one heal instead of fight - bonus points if they're in a position to both be hit by Whirlwind Blade). You start in a very well defended position that makes it easy to stack up and surround enemies one by one, too.

    Quote
    Sorry I have to completely disagree with JOT5 being too hard. As someone who thinks it's not hard enough...I think it's a great middle ground

    Don't forget, this is only Chapter 1! :P

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  • Hyraldelita [Posts: 187]
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    • [September 06, 2016, 12:55:11 AM]
    Re: Suggestions
    « Reply #149 on: September 06, 2016, 12:55:11 AM »
    Well what i can say, is this "I didn't find any impossible fight.." well off course you didn't otherwise there would be a problem....
    Jot5 is hard , and if you say it's "normal" Then you should have made a video of your VER YFIRST run, and show how you deal with the first chapter without ever realoding or quick saving. And show me how some fights aren't very hard.
    The 6 turtle at zirekile falls, the many lamia + beast master, Sephiroth it's not easy at all the first time you do it, even if you spam cross slash he can still hit you and pretty hard too.
    Even the battle with Alma against undead malboro and werewolves is very nice, you have to play well to end the fight without problem, if you take it lightly you're going to regret it.
    I Honestly DOUBT that you went through all jot5 without a single game over.  which mean we veteran FFT player die which mean the patch is hard, and it's perfect like this.

    Off course once you know the enemy attack and learn some very OP skills then  the game become easier. but as i said in my comment, easier , but still enjoyable.
    It looks like everyone ignored what i wrote, but i did write, that i hope the difficulty will be kept untill the end, because in vanilla, after you get a few key skills, all battle become kinda easy to handle.
    Guru [Posts: 181]
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    • [September 06, 2016, 05:21:34 AM]
    Re: Suggestions
    « Reply #150 on: September 06, 2016, 05:21:34 AM »
    Quote
    Don't forget, this is only Chapter 1! :P

    I like the sound of that!  :twisted:

    Quote
    Well what i can say, is this "I didn't find any impossible fight.." well off course you didn't otherwise there would be a problem.....
    Well the not "impossible" fights I meant weren't a literal impossible, more like there was no broken computer rage fest battles. Definitely game overs, I fought the rock beasts on my first random encounter. A good lesson on saving lol. Even after you figure out the strategy for them, the higher tier ones can even counter that strategy, which caught me by surprise and pwned me. One of the bosses absolutely destroyed me, after the first few fights led me to a false sense of security. The other boss is a beast lol. Like I said it's a strategy rpg, you gotta expect to go back to the drawing board once in a while. Those slaps in the face are most the fun of a game for me.

    Quote
    Then you should have made a video of your VER YFIRST run

    If ya ever need me to make a video to show you how to beat anybody, just let me know  ;)

    Quote
    IMO, it's kind of meant to serve as a slap to the face that breaks you of some bad habits in regular FFT where your actual Tactics involve recklessly zerg rushing your enemies with little regard for positioning or keeping near your support units
    ^^
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    KingUrameshi [Posts: 127]
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    • [September 06, 2016, 11:51:47 AM]
    Re: Suggestions
    « Reply #151 on: September 06, 2016, 11:51:47 AM »
    I wish I would have made a video of my first run through. I didn't have a hard time at all (lucky) save the bosses and maybe a random fight or two. I remember I played it straight through, I think it took something like 6 hrs. The random battles were brutal in some places (Barius Valley!) so I stayed to places like Mandalia Plains, woods and such and didn't seem like a real hassle. The random battles were favorable to me for the most part and I hadn't really ventured out of the base classes all to much.

    I also did not over level or grind to much and took the game as it came for the most part. I tried to stick to weapons and skills that allowed support among my group and range combat (Link and Snake) and took advantage of status where I could. The only real terrible thing I had to do was save scum to get through that one mark in the thieves fort :mad:. I pretty much ended up doing that for the bosses at the end only because I didn't want to go through all the text again. Moving away from the base classes more aggressively on the next play though will help ease any difficulty I was having during the first play through.

    I really recommend if anyone has not played Ch. 1 that they do so before the rerelease as to satisfy the urge to keep the 5 in their base classes and to save effort for the official play through.

    10 out of 10 will save scum to steal that sword from the final boss again.

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    Guru [Posts: 181]
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    • [September 06, 2016, 04:49:01 PM]
    Re: Suggestions
    « Reply #152 on: September 06, 2016, 04:49:01 PM »
    Quote
    I really recommend if anyone has not played Ch. 1 that they do so before the rerelease as to satisfy the urge to keep the 5 in their base classes and to save effort for the official play through.

    Yeah, it's nice to get a feel for the characters and see what builds you like too. Shit I played till level 70 just trying to figure out what I want to do for each character. Now level 70 monsters in ch1 are tough  ;). But when it comes out again I already know which direction to go, depending on the changes anyways. Plus I never had concrete cloud/link builds.... don't get me wrong though cloud is my second MVP. I was gonna make cloud a samurai but I might make him a summoner instead of link if he is more compatible reviver. Cloud would make an OP samurai though, since his limits are magic based attacks as well, plus buffs and healing!

    You can't steal weapons in jot5, otherwise I probably would have save stated to be honest. FFT stealing = broken computer for me  :roll:
    Physics student
    Rfh [Posts: 277]
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    • [January 23, 2017, 09:01:26 PM]
    Re: Suggestions
    « Reply #153 on: January 23, 2017, 09:01:26 PM »
    Elric, I replayed this game recentely and I thought about how could affect the game a back/front/side damage modifier. I'm a bit disappointed about high evasion gameplay. It leaves the battle in the hands of your lucky instead of you strategy, or it just
    lengthens unnecessary the battle. I replayed this mod with a bit stall team, abusing with invigoration, revive abilities and MP absorb, I  never lost a battle in my walkthrough (except the hypnotoads battle :mad:) and I saw how some battles were elongated
    needlessly (from 10 minutes to 25 minutes) just because I had bad lucky and the attacks failed even with a 70% many times in a row. It just makes the battle boring.
    I don't think that you will change this at this time, and some people may prefer a luck based battle system, but I left it as a suggestion, because back/front/side damage modifier and a bit less amount of evasion could improve even more the game.
    Nyzer [Posts: 679]
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    • [January 24, 2017, 06:16:45 AM]
    Re: Suggestions
    « Reply #154 on: January 24, 2017, 06:16:45 AM »
    Well, two issues I can imagine with that suggestion would be the difficulty of implementation and how it might affect the game balance.

    I don't think changing the evasion mechanic into a damage reduction effect is an ASM mod that already exists, so it'd have to be built from scratch. Which would be a major time investment.

    And a big part of the difficulty in any of the 1-enemy boss battles of Chapter 1 is how evasive they are. A 50% damage reduction isn't as potent as a 50% chance to miss, if you ask me. Consider how much damage can be done to the final boss with Light Arrow, if it hits. If Light Arrow is part of your strategy there, it makes you really, really want Link to get behind the boss, instead of just giving him the highest ground you can and leaving him there, which would make it harder/less likely for the boss to go after him.

    If the boss' facing only affected damage reduction, it would be less appealing to sacrifice Link's high ground.

    There are also several abilities available that can't be evaded. Changing the way evasion works would take away some of the utility of moves like Omnislash or Ultima.

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    Rfh [Posts: 277]
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    • [January 24, 2017, 08:27:31 AM]
    Re: Suggestions
    « Reply #155 on: January 24, 2017, 08:27:31 AM »
    Well, two issues I can imagine with that suggestion would be the difficulty of implementation and how it might affect the game balance.

    I don't think changing the evasion mechanic into a damage reduction effect is an ASM mod that already exists, so it'd have to be built from scratch. Which would be a major time investment.


    The ASM hack isn't a problem, I'm an ASM hacker. I doned it yesterday:


    75% of original damage is taken from the front, and 125% from the back if FFTpatcher "evadeable" flag is active.

    If Jot5 uses an ASM that works at 0x00186568 routine, the hack is incompatible, but I can modify my hack just knowing what is the 0x00186568 ASM that is working.



    And a big part of the difficulty in any of the 1-enemy boss battles of Chapter 1 is how evasive they are. A 50% damage reduction isn't as potent as a 50% chance to miss, if you ask me. Consider how much damage can be done to the final boss with Light Arrow, if it hits. If Light Arrow is part of your strategy there, it makes you really, really want Link to get behind the boss, instead of just giving him the highest ground you can and leaving him there, which would make it harder/less likely for the boss to go after him.
    If the boss' facing only affected damage reduction, it would be less appealing to sacrifice Link's high ground.

    I haven't said to remplace the evasion system to a facing system, I'm just thinking about combining both.

    Yeah, it isn't as potent, because you just can reset the battle making the same moves or just taking a save state to ensure that it works. I see some FFT and tactics ogre gameplays on youtube, that the people don't won the battle, they just had lucky that X move didn't fail and because of that they won the battle. If they didn't it's as simple as reset your battle hoping that they wouldn't fail.

    If you do low damage from the front is basically the same. You don't want to do low damage and you will move to make more because if you aren't fasT your team will be defeated. With a high evasion system a fail can you cost the entire battle, or make you win it. Playing with a defensive team would be the same, hit rates would be compensated with the damage modifiers.

    The Sephiroth battle seems like it can be defeated with a some lucky attacks. I played it with defensive party keeping a huge healing and the battle took a while. But I just could defeat him with some few hits using a full offense strategy if all of them hits.
    I hate this style of playing, but it could be doned. I just need to reset the battle some times and sephiroth would be defeated. Raising his defenses and lower his evasion would avoid that.
    Keep in mind that I defeated ganondord at the first keeping Link on the high without moving it much, atacking with light arrow at 70% rate the most of the time.

    More than a better system, it's more about what you want. In my case I prefer the defensive type for the reasons that I stated.

    There are also several abilities available that can't be evaded. Changing the way evasion works would take away some of the utility of moves like Omnislash or Ultima.

    You are wrong, because these abilities could ignore the face damage modifier.

    TAMMY!!!!!!!!!
    KingUrameshi [Posts: 127]
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    • [January 24, 2017, 11:28:33 AM]
    Re: Suggestions
    « Reply #156 on: January 24, 2017, 11:28:33 AM »
    I really, really hate when strategy games go for the luck based system to carry out battles (ala tactics 1.3). Please stay away from using that kind of system for your typical encounter.

    Having said that I did not notice a problem with needing to be lucky to win or having enemies pull off crazy evades. The Sephiroth fight seemed very appropriate since you were dealing with an enemy who is supposed to be extremely skilled and his high evasion fit him very well.

    The only problem I encountered with enemies evading was when I was trying to assassinate people with Snake. In that case too I was very successful assassinating many enemies. Again the balance is top notch although I have not played since my original playthrough.

    Currently playing Valkyria Chronicles & The Binding of Isaac: Rebirth.

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