Final Fantasy Hacktics

Projects => Completed Patches => FFT Arena => Topic started by: FFMaster on July 13, 2010, 11:56:57 PM

Title: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: FFMaster on July 13, 2010, 11:56:57 PM
NOTE: Balance debates only. If you think your change warrants its own thread, go for it.

Master Guide (http://ffhacktics.com/smf/index.php?topic=6483.0)
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread
Post by: FFMaster on July 14, 2010, 03:51:44 AM
Updated tables to have RSM and JP costs.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread
Post by: The Damned on July 14, 2010, 05:21:18 AM
Okay, so I'll try to give first impressions without ruminating this too much:


That's it for now.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread
Post by: FFMaster on July 14, 2010, 05:37:54 AM
2 - maybe some other time. Most of them follow 1.3, so check those for now.
3 - I'm not sure either, guess we will see after the tourney
4 - I agree
5 - Greased Bolt works. It adds Chicken until the unit gets hit by something, or Regen/Move HP/MP Up/Poison activates.
6 - Odin I think is too strong, we are now thinking of making it a mass Death attack. like 25-30% death, or miss.
7 - yeah, i know the mistakes, but i'm just too tired right now to fix.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread
Post by: FFMaster on July 15, 2010, 09:50:15 AM
Updated again. Mostly its the same though. Hopefully, nobody has any huge objections.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread
Post by: Zaen on July 15, 2010, 09:00:24 PM
Seems decent, though some of the stronger abilities look kinda cheap, such as some of the powerful summons, maybe even the Sage skills, seeing as they hit the entire board 100%. But... F(MA*4 and 5) seems very weak... I'm guessing around 18-30 damage is the range? Well, I guess seeing as it's the whole map that seems fair. Never mind this.

Leviathan seems to weak, even for having that much range... but I guess that's not going to change. Silf is far more useful than Titan at this point, as it silences or Don't Acts. Maybe Titan could get Don't Move or Silf could get a slight nerf of F(MA*18)?
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread
Post by: The Damned on July 16, 2010, 02:00:04 AM
I have to agree with Zaen, especially since I'm still surprised to see Concentrate so cheap.

Otherwise, all of the Equip X abilities outside of Equip Armor, Equip Gun and perhaps Equip Shield could stand to be a cheaper.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread
Post by: Zaen on July 16, 2010, 02:03:12 PM
Is there a typo on Cure 4? It says AoE 0 but still has Vert 3.

Also, Repeating Fist is worthless, as it's completely outclassed by Wave Fist.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread
Post by: CT5Holy on July 16, 2010, 05:30:17 PM
Unless it's 100% hit like in 1.3. Which I assume is the case.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread
Post by: PX_Timefordeath on July 16, 2010, 05:37:51 PM
Whoops, my error. It is 100% hit. And Cure4 should have have infinite vert... I think.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread
Post by: Kaz on July 17, 2010, 06:06:05 AM
Can anyone explain the limitations on throw? i.e are all items that are on the list available to be thrown?
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread
Post by: FFMaster on July 17, 2010, 06:11:43 AM
No limitations. Anything on the Weapon Lists pretty much. Except Knight Swords, which I removed.

EDIT: Removed the Random Hits flags for Nameless Dance and Nameless Song.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread
Post by: philsov on July 18, 2010, 12:33:35 AM
Few notes about the new sage stuff:

1) Its set to persevere; intentional?
2) Silence doesn't stop it.
3) Evadeable, although not noted above
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread
Post by: FFMaster on July 18, 2010, 01:11:40 AM
1) Intentional
2) Silence stops it now
3) They weren't supposed to be evadable. Fixed now.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread
Post by: philsov on July 19, 2010, 05:31:46 PM
minor theorycrafting points, that I'd like to be watched for in this beta tourney:

1) Lore is... lackluster.  It -barely- edges out Wiznaibus in damage-per-tick, but is marred by MP cost so it can't be sustainable forever (even on a summoner / half MP unit and such).  Its best use basically requires an entire team setup around it, with one of two facets.  The first is elemental absorbing (black costume + flame shield, e.g.) to make it basically BOTH life song and wiznaibus at the same time -- which is pretty sick in one sense, and I'm sure with some tweaking with MP restoration (2x both with absorbed use MP?) it can sustain itself for a long duration.  The second would be using the party damaging facet and slap all your own people with stuff like Speed and MA save and just go to town with it, probably coupled with poor compat and/or low faith on some units and/or half:element options.  Which, also, is quite effective in the theoretical sense and I almost submitted a team to that tune.  I just don't like a skillset being both borderline broken or a liability given the rest of the group, with Lore itself being the archstone.  

1a) Suggest gutting it and inserting something like a blue mage, red mage, gladiator(?), Mystic Knight, or other job-like from the spectrum.

2) While I am a bit proud that y'all are incorporating many things from ASM'd into the PvP patch, the movement thing really needs to be addressed.  One, in that the current pool is waaay too small and/or ineffective, with move HP and move MP probably being the best of the bunch.  ASM'd includes both move+1 and move+2 in its repitoire, and tbh half-expects the user to have them on many units which is why the 2 move is present in the first place.  If you remove movement-buffing abilities, I highly suggest going back to the 3/4 scheme.  

3) Masamune is too awesome, but I don't know how to fix it.  With the given range/movement/map size, its reasonable to expect 3/4 of the team to be both hasted and regened (with awesome synergy) once the fighting actually starts.  Plus its instant with no MP cost.  It completely replaces Time Magic and offers healing and offensive action all in a single skillset.  Maybe there's something we can do with the seperate flag?  25% Regen and 25% Haste might suck too much, though.

4) I don't think Silf needs to spit out that much damage and have a status proc on top of it.  

5) Given the current unlock scheme, oracle seems like an awesome combo as far as JP goes with both Def Up and Move MP-Up.  Suggest giving Move MP-Up to summoners as an ability.

5a) Possibly re-adjust the unlock price/JP costs/JP cap.  I was able to get primary, secondary, and R/S/M from five different jobs for many prelim builds, complete with 1-4 action abilities per slot.  Is that the target?
5b) 500 JP for Ultima?  too high imo.

6) Bards and Dancers shouldn't have 3 movement.  High mobility means you run into the enemy headfirst.  These classes don't need to do this, but do it anyways thanks to AI.  2 movement is far more fitting, unless the 3 is specifically because you don't want them to be fully effective.  

Think that's it for now >_>

edit:  7) Always:protect and shell are too good, imo.  coupled with def up or MDU, that's an effective hp boost of 50% (I think I did the reverse math right?).  So on a knight with a knight sword and coupled opposite has an effective HP pool of... 718.  But with  479 base HP this also means he's regenning 48 HP a turn with move HP Up, and 60 HP with regen thanks to masamune.  That... is a literally a brick wall.

I did the same thing with my dancers for this tourney :)  330 HP with both protect and magic Def up?  Its awesome.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread
Post by: Kaz on July 19, 2010, 09:12:06 PM
*hides from philsov's brick wall dancers*
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread
Post by: philsov on July 20, 2010, 11:52:51 PM
hee.

Also!  back to the movement thing.  

Exhibit A:  Cluster of death, and 2 movement units can't go through a stack of corpses.  Thankfully everyone had range in some form or fashion, but that's because all the melee killed each other.

[attachment=0:3b8sw80c]movement.PNG[/attachment:3b8sw80c]
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread
Post by: The Damned on July 21, 2010, 02:27:49 PM
Out of curiosity, what ability slots did you use for Lore? I'm asking this because the Charging animation for them looks...interesting.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread
Post by: AeroGP on July 21, 2010, 04:19:01 PM
They're all blank slots.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread
Post by: philsov on July 21, 2010, 04:46:27 PM
Quote from: "The Damned"
Out of curiosity, what ability slots did you use for Lore? I'm asking this because the Charging animation for them looks...interesting.

Looks like the ones immediately after Parasite.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread
Post by: The Damned on July 22, 2010, 03:09:30 PM
Since R999 pointed this out in the tournament thread, I have to ask this: Did you remember to flag Kiyomori and Masamune as Random with the regards to the AI flags?
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread
Post by: FFMaster on July 22, 2010, 11:36:20 PM
Nothing has Random Hits flag.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread
Post by: The Damned on July 23, 2010, 05:56:35 AM
This explains so much with regards to Masamune....

That's good to know. Would you be willing to change that after we end this current test tournament?
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread
Post by: FFMaster on July 23, 2010, 06:26:36 AM
I honestly do not like Random Hits. Either way, it would make the AI dumb. Random Hits is why Kanbabrif doesn't spam Banish every turn. People wouldn't use it whether or not it has Random Hits. Those abilities will have to be remade. Sigh.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread
Post by: philsov on July 23, 2010, 01:48:59 PM
So the list of stuff that needs to be "fixed" is...

Kiyomori
Masamune
Nameless Dance
?Nameless Song?

???

I dislike the random hits flag, too.  I'd rather these things be weaker but worthwhile than zomg the AI -might- use them.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread
Post by: The Damned on July 23, 2010, 02:31:13 PM
If you're talking about stuff that needs to be "fixed" via Random (or some other presently unknown solution), then yes, only those four abilities seem to be the only ones that need to changed.

If you're not then, then obviously more things like Last Dance, Last Song and Life Drain would be qualifying.

As for disliking the random hits flag, isn't the whole point of doing this test out how AI would perform with certain abilities in AI tournaments? Why immediately discount it when it's the easiest, most sensible solution?
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread
Post by: PX_Timefordeath on July 23, 2010, 05:41:48 PM
I hate the random hits flag, as philsov pointed out, I'd rather have a weaker and usable ability than an ability the AI -might- use. AI with random hits flags is pretty much the same as banning an ability, because the AI is on average never going to use it.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread
Post by: Skip Sandwich on July 23, 2010, 08:17:00 PM
Ultima needs fixing as well, it's values are all out of whack. Here's how it stacks up against 2nd tier black magic (it's closest match in terms of current power level)

It has lower power then a tier 2 black magic spell (17 vs. 18)

It has no AoE (versus black magic with AoE of 1)

Much higher mp cost (30 for Ultima versus 12 for Black Magic)

Longer CT (5 for Ultima versus 3 for Black Magic)
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread
Post by: CT5Holy on July 23, 2010, 09:18:30 PM
Don't forget about JP cost (500? vs 180).
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread
Post by: Skip Sandwich on July 23, 2010, 10:56:51 PM
@CT5
that's a good point as well, if we go by jp cost, we SHOULD be comparing Ultima to a Tier 4 black magic spell.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread
Post by: FFMaster on August 01, 2010, 09:53:11 AM
Right now, the only thing Ultima has over the other spells is the fact that it is unevadable. But yeah, it really needs major buffs. I was thinking of making it not Faith based, as well as making an Ultima 1/2/3, to give it a few uses over Black Magic.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread
Post by: Skip Sandwich on August 01, 2010, 03:54:59 PM
oh, and another thing, Quick should probably be flagged such that it cannot target the caster, because otherwise the AI will simply spam quick on itself (the casting unit) until it runs out of mp.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread
Post by: FFMaster on August 02, 2010, 11:47:00 PM
Updated all stats and skillset tables. Take a good look.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread
Post by: The Damned on August 03, 2010, 01:55:17 AM
Might be useful if you made a change list of what you changed. From what I can gather, all you changed were adding new moves to Squire and Archer. I'm not sure what you changed with regards to stats.

Anyway, now that the tournament is over, IMO, here's what needs to be looked at ability-wise--I'm not going to touch stats since outside of Thief, I don't see any glaring problem:


I'm sure I'll think of more later. Besides that, I still don't know how I feel about Greased Bolt (because no one used it) and even though you split up Ultima into two levels, it's still rather weak.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread
Post by: FFMaster on August 03, 2010, 02:06:59 AM
1) Agree
2) Agree
3) Agree
4) Right now, it has lost a lot of the worst statii.
5) Probably.
6) Either that or a new skillset completely. There is no reason to get Steal while Battle Skill is around. Or change Battle Skill and keep steal.
7) What do you mean by linear? Plus, its a low chance to hit and can be stopped fairly easily. If people like high risk, high reward attacks, then fine. I personally would rather use the Death spell from Black Mage.
8) Silf got changed recently to status only. Lower %hit than Paralyze and Don't Move, but AoE. Also, it only inflicts one or the other.
9) Either that or Demi should be buffed.
10) Agree
11) Agree
12) Sunken State will probably just be removed. Transparent messes the AI too much

Ultima is actually fairly strong. with some MA gear, it can deal about 200 damage. It's not faith based.

EDIT: Stats changed were very minor : +1 move to all units. +1 range for a lot of abilities (most spells, Earth Slash, Kiku, and a few others)
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread
Post by: The Damned on August 03, 2010, 02:15:07 AM
With regards to Odin, I mean a linear attack like how Earth Slash and Kikuichimoji are. And it's less that Odin is risky than that it can pay off so easily (and, really, people tend not to use Cancel: Dead equipment, even with Secret Fist Dancers around).

With regards to Ultima, hunh, I didn't see that. I would still argue that they would like their casting times slightly reduced, but as it stands now, they're hardly my biggest concerns.

If Silf is back to status only, then I guess Don't Act or Don't Move is fine. I'm similarly fine with Sunken State just being removed, especially since it's outclassed by Concentrate anyway.

As for Steal, well, as I said in the Thief thread, it's probably easier to make it compete with Knight by making it less dangerous and more accurate to use than Battle Skills and maybe giving Thief new skills over the useless Steal Gil and Steal EXP than to try to design an entirely new skillset. This and a few other changes would probably make Thief useable. I find this especially true considering that Scholar is still new and needs more testing. If you want to try to make something from scratch though, it's really up to you and Aero and PX.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread
Post by: FFMaster on August 03, 2010, 04:38:15 AM
It looks like Thief is going to stay, and instead, Knight is going to get a makeover. If this goes through, it will become a Paladin. Thanks Aero and Eternal.

Here is a small list of abilities. Very rough draft.
Nurse - Heal_(25)% Hit_(PA+80)%
Dia- Minor Holy damage from afar and Blind.
Consecration- Kills undead surrounding the Paladin
Transfusion- Sacrifices HP to restore the health of adjacent allies. (AoE Wish)
Iron Will: Protect/Regen on self.
Magicward- Shell and Reflect on self.
Dispel - Hit_(PA+80)% remove +status
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread
Post by: The Damned on August 03, 2010, 05:05:32 AM
Heh, that's a promising take on Paladin, though it does raise the question of what exactly should happen with Kiyomori and Masamune somewhat indirectly view Magic Ward and Iron Will respectively. Dispel seems rather unnecessary, especially since Dispel Magic doesn't get used anyway. Transfusion could easily kill the AI.

Other looks like a good start. (Also solves the small problem of Slow being dished out almost exclusively by Knights and Knights also somewhat obviating Silence with Magic Ruin.)
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread
Post by: FFMaster on August 03, 2010, 10:18:10 AM
I think Move-HP Up should be moved to another class, and that move-HP Up and Counter Flood JP costs should be increased. And maybe Auto-Potion needs a slight nerf?

EDIT: Updated base stats for units. Specifically, there was an error for Squire in MA and MP, Time Mage gains 1 speed while losing 1 MA, and Summoner gains a lot of MP while losing Half of MP. Squire loses 10% evasion, while Thief goes to 20% evasion.

(http://i272.photobucket.com/albums/jj174/FF255Master/FFT%20Arena/ArenaStatsv5.png)
(http://i272.photobucket.com/albums/jj174/FF255Master/FFT%20Arena/Master1v5.png)
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread
Post by: philsov on August 03, 2010, 03:51:56 PM
Last Dance:  A unit basically sacrifices its turns to remove turns from the opposing team.  At a rate of 25%, that is -breakeven-.  I recommend 33% personally.  So it'll on average knock out one person, and maybe snag another, for a net gain plus or minus RNG.  

Nameless Dance:  Needs to be without the random hits flag, but in order to make it effective with the AI it needs to lose any status that would make the AI plum ignore units.  So confusion is definitely out...... and looking at the updated front page we're in agreeance on most of the stuff so moving on.

Drawout:  We've learned that no random hits on multi-hit abilities suck, so we need to do something about kiyomori and masamune.  Perhaps kiyomori being AoE Shell (and shell only) with Masamune being AoE regen (and regen only)?  AoE regen does have some AI qwerks, but certainly that only happens when the samu also doesn't know Murasame, ya?  Pure instant AoE haste is too good imo, but we can gut any other draw out for an AoE protect.  Also I'd prefer to see some variety within the skillset since all the damaging ones are mostly interchangeable.  They could stand to gain another linear attack, perhaps?

Autopotion - Could stand to be tweaked to 50 HP.

X-Potion - 150 HP really is fine.  It seemed a bit OP on my dancers because they had protect and shell with minimal fury and faith, but really.... when a strong single-target attack occurs (hello kaz's archers), the damage isn't completely negated, and when AoE occurs (hello Kaz's samunners) it can only grab a single unit so the rest of the crew keeps the damage as well.

Ethers - Need some loving.  Maybe 30 and 70?

Lore:  Needs to be gutted.  But I've already discussed that in further detail.

Bards and Dancers:  Don't need 4 move -_-.  4 move is actually harmful to them.

Move HP/MP Up - seem like a too good for the JP combo with other R/S from classes in their current one, but shifting them to other similar classes has almost the same effect no matter where you slice it.  At least counter flood doesn't also provide defense, unlike equip shield/speed save/etc.  Maybe priest for Move MP Up.  Maybe.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread
Post by: The Damned on August 03, 2010, 04:45:08 PM
Last Dance: 33% is fine with me. By that logic, though, Last Song should be fine with at 25% since the Bard isn't really giving up a turn since his ability could hit himself, right?

Nameless Dance: Yeah, I suppose it makes sense that Confusion was causing the problem. If it's going to be nerfed to do only Darkness, Silence, Poison, Slow or Stop, then I'm fine with it still be 50%.

Draw Out: Masamune being AoE Regen is fine, especially since I've never seen anyone with a Priest use Regen in an AI tournament, much less anyone buy it. It's always Regenerator or P Bag that brings Regen (assuming that non-Random Masamune was banned). Kiyomori as AoE Protect (or Shell) is a lot more iffy though, since Priests still use those spells and Samurai don't have to use any MP to spam those over and over again. AoE Reflect seems like it'd be less invasive considering that similarly, no one uses Time Mage's Reflect or Summoner's Carbuncle as they are now. I don't think we really need to change any of other Draw Outs. They differ enough since most them have some element attached now.

Auto Potion: We're agreed.

X-Potion: Yours was hardly the only team where 150 seemed OP. It kind of screws over any non-Knight unit wearing a Cursed Ring. Even with my bias against Item, I'd be less annoyed by it if Item use against Undead could be dodged, but it can't. At the very least, X-Potion needs to cost more JP if it's going to remain at 150 HP IMO.

Ethers: Yeah, they've always sucked. I think 30 and 70 or even 80 MP would be fine and at least Ether's cost could be dropped a bit since it's still outshined by Move-MP Up.

Lore: Yeah, it probably needs to be changed, but it's not that huge of a deal at the moment, especially if Knight is getting completely redone. It can wait until after the next test unless someone has a clear suggestion of what to change it to: the only thing I could imagine would be Blue Mage, would be kind of difficult to properly adjust when we haven't discussed monsters at present.

Bards and Dancers: Yeah, they really don't need extra move. I'd argue that no one needs Extra move besides Thieves and Ninja and maybe Mimes. Yeah, even Mimes kind of get screwed over by extra move, though I can at least understand why they (and Squires) have it.

Move-HP Up & Move-MP Up: While Geomancer isn't OP with it, it could definitely stand to lose Move-HP Up. Move it to one of the less classes, like Mediator or Thief that have crappy R/Ss. Move-MP Up is a lot trickier to say. I think it maybe should be moved to someone else, but they all cause their own problems. It can stay with Oracle for now as far as I'm concerned. (Priest [and Wizard] would actually be worse IMO since Oracles basically have to have above average Faith, which Defense UP doesn't negate the penalty like Magic Defend UP does or make you into a replenishing nuke like Magic Attack UP does.)

***

Finger Guard: Needs to be free. There's no reason that a Reaction skill so useless should cost more than some other useful Reaction Abilities.

Mimes: They really need some innate Reaction ability and maybe even Any Ground movement because even with all the status protection, the great stats and the Innate Concentrate + Martial Arts combo, they're still sitting ducks with no reaction ability who just tend to die, especially with all that move. I think Counter and Any Ground (or Counter and Counter Magic, though I forget how Reactions stack at the moment) would go a long way to improving them without making them OP, even if it meant that they're PA would have to take a bit of a hit.

Reflect status in Spells: Both Reflect and Carbunkle need to be buffed, IMO. Reflect could stand to hit on AoE of 1, cost slightly less JP and have an upped chance to hit without being OP; it should cost more MP if that's the cast. Carbunkle needs to either similarly be upped and cost slightly less JP (and MP in this case) or do something useful besides Reflect. I'd suggest the FF9 version of Carbunkle that I'm using, but since that involves the Random flag and Transparent.... I don't know, they just both need something to make them at least seem worth using, even if they're probably never going to use just like Float (the spell). Hell, you could even just change Carbunkle to Shoat since you seem comfortable with trying to hand-out instant death via Odin and mass-Petrify is something that no one has (constant) access to.

Geomancy: Speaking of Float, I've always found it kind of odd that Elemental has some attacks that aren't elemental. I think that Pitfall, Hell Ivy and Carve Model could stand to gain Earth elemental. I say this even being aware that if Carve Model was Earth, I wouldn't have won that one match that my janky team won, but that match was pretty BS anyway on my side.

Ignore Height: Depending on what maps we ultimately end up deciding to use (if we get rid of that many or any), it's cost should probably be reduced, especially with Teleport and Fly around--both of those abilities can remain the same cost regardless because they both allow you to freely move behind people (even if the computer isn't as abusive with Teleport as we are).
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread
Post by: Kaz on August 03, 2010, 06:08:04 PM
I'm in favor of 33% last song/dance.  

Masmune adding regen would work i s'pose, but im against having kiyomouri have protect/shell.  hardly any white magic was used in the tourney iirc.

X-Pot is fine IMO, it was more of a disadvantage when the AI used x-pot on undead since I could hit higher with other attacks.

Agree w/ ethers needing buff

Lore: just needs more damage output IMO

Bards/dancers: agree. I remember seeing philsovs dancers run out in to the open on a few matches after starting a dance.  The AI is pretty much suicidal with these things if you give them the move they need.

Finger guard: If you wanted it to be free I don't see an issue with that seeing as no one used talk skill last tourney - that being said i think it needs some buffs.

I think mimes are fine with the innates they have atm... if anything buff their hp.  from what I saw there was just an absence of healing/support for them.

Agree with ignore height being reduced.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread
Post by: CT5Holy on August 03, 2010, 06:30:15 PM
Mimes: Counter Flood is a nice blanket reaction that takes advantage of their stats.
Last Song should also be 33% - even if LS hit on the Singer, what good does that do? They're not going to change actions. It's one unit sacrificing his turns to give his teammates more.
X-Potion is fine. If people really want it nerfed, I think 120 would be good.

Hmm, Lore might be ok now that we're back to 3/4 move. I wouldn't mind if it was taken out though. We'll see...

I agree with everything else though.

Another thing to keep in mind (although you all are likely aware of this) is that any given ability, particularly R/S/M, has an extra 250 JP attached to it. So tweak JP costs with this in mind.

Oh, Protect 2 and Shell 2 need their JP costs slashed. In my opinion, Wall outclasses it by far.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread
Post by: PX_Timefordeath on August 03, 2010, 07:10:36 PM
Lore: Double the CT, double the damage, you have the exact same thing, but procs once a turn instead of twice, weakening the Lore + Save strat.

Potions: I like the 50/100/no x-potion approach

Mimes already have the max HP considering we're using static growths to make things easier on ourselves, but they can stand for buffs. I like the counter flood innate reaction to them. They should have Any Ground though.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread
Post by: The Damned on August 03, 2010, 07:32:56 PM
I agree that Counter Flood is probably the best Reaction skill if we want a catch all one and it's not like having Concentrate makes it as buff as Counter potentially could be since Geomancy already hits 100% anyway. Any Ground seems kind of necessary, even if does sort of step on Geomancers toes (unless fights take place at Volcano, hehe).

I also agree with PX's Lore proposal, especially since Lore is affected by Short Charge, correct? I don't know if the damage needs to doubled as well, though, since it's not able to be dodged and Lore was doing like 30~ damage per hit. The damage could be stand to be buffed, though.

Last Song at 33% would be fine with me. It's hard to tell how powerful Last Song is since no one even used a Bard this time around.

Quote from: "Kaz"
hardly any white magic was used in the tourney iirc.

Yeah, I think that only two units (at most) used White Magic this entire tournament, one of them being Zaen's Undead Knight. Everything else was pretty much X-Potion this and Moogle that.

Although I guess this means I know what my next team is going to be.

Quote
Finger guard: If you wanted it to be free I don't see an issue with that seeing as no one used talk skill last tourney - that being said i think it needs some buffs.

Kind of my point. It works on so few things at present, especially with the 1.3 Talk Skill, that it's next to useless and thus shouldn't cost anything even though it still has its (very limited) uses.

It's rather difficult to buff. Believe me. One of the many things I'm trying to do for my patch is make Finger Guard stronger, but since most of it calls for formula changes, most of the changes have been to enemy classes and I had to keep the Brave and Faith affecting abilities of the original Talk Skill relatively intact.

Maybe we can look for ways to buff it after Scholars and now Knights (or Thieves) are dealt with, but as it stands now, making Finger Guard free is the easiest solution to a problem that will just up eat more time if we try to tackle it now.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread
Post by: PX_Timefordeath on August 03, 2010, 09:42:11 PM
Another idea we can do about Scholars

Revert them back to Calculators, with decent stats instead of pure shit they were in Vanilla

The list of Calc'd spells would look like:
Fire
Fire2
Ice
Ice2
Bolt
Bolt2
Poison
Cure
Cure2
Protect
Shell
Regen
Haste
Slow
Reflect
Blind
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread
Post by: Zaen on August 03, 2010, 10:09:10 PM
Hmm... forgot about the undead part with having White Magic secondary... Oh well.

Anyways, I wouldn't mind the Calc coming back with slightly better stats, less options.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread
Post by: FFMaster on August 03, 2010, 10:23:57 PM
Potion - Heal 50 HP (Auto-Pot only)
Hi-Potion - Heals 40% of max HP (191 HP on a max HP Knight)
X-Potion - Heals 120 HP

Numbers may need tweaking. But this is the plan I have to make both potions useful.

EDIT: Last Song/Last Dance are now at 34%.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread
Post by: philsov on August 04, 2010, 02:49:30 PM
Quote
Last Song/Last Dance are now at 34%
.

I think Last Song should still be 50%.  The bard in question is dead in the water, and a good (stupid AI) bard who quick turns himself should go right back to last songing.  33% is fine for last dance because its against 4 targets, but with last song its 3 so following the same scheme 33% is the breakeven and 50% is the one beneficial bloke plus another one sometimes, plus or minus RNG.  

I like the new potion scheme too!
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread
Post by: The Damned on August 04, 2010, 05:38:51 PM
Calcs: I guess that's fine. Since there's never really been enemy AI with neutered Math Skill (or at least multiple enemy AI with neutered Math Skill), I can't even begin to guess how the AI would use it though.

Last Song: Part of me wants to agree with philsov, especially since that's what the computer would do in most cases. The majority of me, however, wants to err on the side of caution since Last Song is even more powerful than Last Dance and I'm worried more about the Bard's teammates having a 50% chance of Quick than the Bard himself. I'd want to test it, though, so it's not like I'm going to fight hard for one or the other. I just think that it would be better if it was at 34%, though I'd gladly like to be proven incorrect.

Potions: Seems kind of bizarre that Hi-Potion could heal so much more than X-Potion. Why not just flip Hi-Potion and X-Potion around? Half of the teams tend to have at least one heavily armored (Knight) unit anyway.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread
Post by: CT5Holy on August 04, 2010, 06:04:58 PM
Doesn't really matter, item users will either buy both potions now, or stick with just buying X-Potion. On most units, X-Potion will heal more than Hi-Potion anyway.

Calcs seem fine - JP costs will really kill them, and I guess they'd be more like Bards/Dancers in this environment (heavily specialized role).
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread
Post by: FFMaster on August 04, 2010, 09:04:42 PM
Since Zodiac decided to revert the forums back a fair few hours, a couple of updates were lost.

Chemist: Hi-Potion is now 35% healing. Remedy has been changed to Bandage - cure Don't Move and Don't Act.

(http://i272.photobucket.com/albums/jj174/FF255Master/FFT%20Arena/Itemv7.png)

Priest: Reraise now 100% hit, Protect/Shell 2 made stronger, Wall MP cost increased. There is also an error on the table. Esuna heals DM/DA

(http://i272.photobucket.com/albums/jj174/FF255Master/FFT%20Arena/WhiteMagicv7.png)

Samurai: Kiyomori is now 100% Poison, Masamune is now 100% Regen

(http://i272.photobucket.com/albums/jj174/FF255Master/FFT%20Arena/DrawOutv7.png)

Phil has convinced me. Bard Last Song back to 50%
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread
Post by: The Damned on August 05, 2010, 07:41:09 AM
Repeating Fist is currently worthless as is. Wave Fist is better than it in every way AND costs the same amount.

This needs to change (even as much as I dislike Monks). I'm guessing it wouldn't change back to its original self since people understandably hate Random abilities, but just reducing the JP cost of it or increasing the JP cost of Wave Fist isn't really going to help improve Repeating Fist.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread
Post by: FFMaster on August 05, 2010, 07:44:33 AM
Repeating Fist isn't actually evadable. It's a typo.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread
Post by: The Damned on August 05, 2010, 07:50:56 AM
Oh.... That's fine then, even with Concentrate still around.

Since I forgot to mention it, I like the changes to Item, White Magic and Draw Out.

Not to conscend, but you did make sure to change the AI flags for Kiyomori, right? It'd be kind of funny if they still thought they should use a 100% Poison attack on their allies.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread
Post by: FFMaster on August 05, 2010, 09:45:54 AM
Oh shi... forgot to change the AI flags.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread
Post by: CT5Holy on August 05, 2010, 05:23:01 PM
Hmm. I'm leaning on Fire/Ice/Bolt 4 as being a bit too powerful. Right now, more damage, more range (summons still only at 3 range?), same AoE as Bahamut, the strongest damaging summon. Being evadable isn't a huge factor - ~0-20% evade (averageish), depending on shield and/or mantle. Max M.Ev setup with Abandon gives 84% M. Ev, 51% evade without Abandon, but that means very low P.Ev/lower stats/no status or elemental immunities. Low faith units still take a decent chunk (the first Fire 4 would've done ~140 to my 40 Faith Knight without Venetian Shield). Low HP moderate-high faith units will get one-shotted/close to it (Monk in critical, I think Sage died? definitely in critical at least), two or three in a row on a clumped team = death. Unless Venetian Shield/White Robe/lucky elemental absorb gear. I suppose that's the main deterrent, especially since Venetian Shield will be rather common.
18 MA Wizard with MAUP and ele boosting (30 effective MA) and 70 Faith will do 268 to a 40 Faith unit (neutral to element).
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread
Post by: FFMaster on August 05, 2010, 10:37:30 PM
I agree. What should we do though? I don't see a good way to balance it. Got any ideas?
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread
Post by: CT5Holy on August 05, 2010, 11:09:55 PM
Not really, unfortunately. Well, what if we reduced the AoE to that of the other black magic spells? (AoE 1 instead of 2) It'll be much harder to catch (and promptly blow up) 3-4 members of a team.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread
Post by: PX_Timefordeath on August 05, 2010, 11:14:14 PM
Huge single target nuke?
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread
Post by: The Damned on August 05, 2010, 11:15:13 PM
I'd be fine with a single target elemental nuke. It would have to be weaker than Flare initially but potentially stronger with Strengthen to be worth it, though.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread
Post by: CT5Holy on August 05, 2010, 11:20:46 PM
Er, I meant the cross AoE, like the lower tier black magics. I guess single target could work.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread
Post by: The Damned on August 05, 2010, 11:26:42 PM
I'm aware of what you meant. I was agreeing with PX, though. Sorry for being vague.

Only other "solution" would just be to off them completely either leave them gone or replace them with else, like Bio or something. (Not like Poison will be getting any use with Kiyomori's change.)
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread
Post by: FFMaster on August 05, 2010, 11:31:19 PM
Poison is still ranged =/

Single target nuke sounds alright, but we already have Flare... I'm leaning towards 1 AoE like CT5 is suggesting, but either can work.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread
Post by: Skip Sandwich on August 06, 2010, 04:19:23 AM
I like the idea of scrapping the tier 4 black magics to replace them with bio 1/2/3, preferably dealing dark element damage + status (lower damage then the standard elemental black magic, 75% power maybe?)
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread
Post by: PX_Timefordeath on August 06, 2010, 06:16:16 AM
Dancers and Bards: Lower their speed to 8, and move to 3
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread
Post by: The Damned on August 06, 2010, 07:21:31 PM
When you get the chance, please change all instances of Knight to Paladin in the initial post. (Unless we're keeping the name of Knight. It's not like it really makes a difference.)

Similarly, Ninja's new Katon, Raiton and Suiton don't say what elements they are at the moment.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread
Post by: FFMaster on August 06, 2010, 09:22:00 PM
Updated the tables with what the danmed said
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread
Post by: FFMaster on August 07, 2010, 12:40:15 AM
We need a new formula for the Ninja abilities. The current formula won't accept elements.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread
Post by: Skip Sandwich on August 07, 2010, 12:47:46 AM
the elemental formula will, as will the non-faith magic attack formula (MA * X), and the Punch Art formula, and the standard faith magic formula. Of these, I most favor the elemental or punch art formulas.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread
Post by: FFMaster on August 07, 2010, 12:55:14 AM
I was thinking of using Punch Art formulas, but then Martial Arts boosted the power of the spells. I guess I will have to choose between MA*X or Geomancy formulas.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread
Post by: The Damned on August 07, 2010, 12:55:53 AM
I'm fine with Punch Art formula (though that would make Martial Art Ninjas even more bullshit).

Speaking of Ninja, I'd actually argue (as much as I hate to admit) that they probably want Two Swords Innate back. I don't think anyone's even used them yet, which is kind of stark considering how whored they always were in AI tournaments. They would just need to (maybe) lose some PA and probably be forbidden from having Martial Arts Support (and maybe but probably not Concentrate Support).

Yeah, that's a lot of maybe, but since we talking about Ninja and Ninjutsu (since Throw doesn't fit anymore) anyway....
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread
Post by: Pride on August 07, 2010, 02:24:33 AM
Is formula 63 (speed*wp) no good for the new ninja abilities?
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread
Post by: FFMaster on August 07, 2010, 02:25:51 AM
It can work, but if the caster has no weapon (Monks) then it does 0 damage. I can use that if you guys like it though.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread
Post by: PX_Timefordeath on August 07, 2010, 03:27:19 AM
And if they're using Defender, which has the highest WP, with attack up... yeah, uber 5 range nuke, 100% hit.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread
Post by: Pride on August 07, 2010, 03:36:59 AM
Attack UP works on Speed*WP formula?
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread
Post by: Kaz on August 07, 2010, 05:26:23 AM
Quote from: "The Damned"
I'm fine with Punch Art formula (though that would make Martial Art Ninjas even more bullshit).

Speaking of Ninja, I'd actually argue (as much as I hate to admit) that they probably want Two Swords Innate back. I don't think anyone's even used them yet, which is kind of stark considering how whored they always were in AI tournaments. They would just need to (maybe) lose some PA and probably be forbidden from having Martial Arts Support (and maybe but probably not Concentrate Support).

Yeah, that's a lot of maybe, but since we talking about Ninja and Ninjutsu (since Throw doesn't fit anymore) anyway....


I want the 2Swords innate back too - like Damned said, as long as their PA is low (which I think it already is) ninjas won't be over-used.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread
Post by: FFMaster on August 07, 2010, 09:48:04 AM
Quote
Attack UP works on Speed*WP formula?
Yes it does.

My feeble attempt at trying to find the SP*WP formula to edit didn't work. All I managed to find was current damage to be dealt =( So that means probably using either MA*Y and risk it being horribly strong for mages, or SP*WP and be able to deal as much damage as about now, except being evadable and having elemental attributes, while unarmed units get the shaft. Using the latter would mean Attack UP and Elemental boosting will both work, and if you put it on Paladin with Defender... either way, I don't like either of those options. A 3rd option would be to maybe use Malak's Untruth formula, giving them power while keeping 40 Faith.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread
Post by: Skip Sandwich on August 07, 2010, 10:36:26 AM
oooh, I like the untruth option a lot, it makes for a very interesting secondary choice, and maybe even a powerful pesudo-primary if run on a 40 faith wizard or something
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread
Post by: FFMaster on August 10, 2010, 12:02:08 PM
/me prepares to hear a bunch of "WTF"'s from 10 speed Thief.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread
Post by: Skip Sandwich on August 10, 2010, 01:36:17 PM
I see it, but apparently only the female thief is 10 speed, so you might need to update your update. that being said, I don't believe that 10 speed thieves are much of a problem, seeing as even with stacked +Pa gear, they max out at 2x146=292 damage (Iga/Koga), or 288 damage (Dragon Whisker Jump), but in each of those cases they only have 269hp, making them exceedingly fragile.
:EDIT: Oh, are ninja's getting innate Two Swords back? because if not, then thieves make for better ninjas then ninjas, +1 speed, +30hp, +5 class evasion, equal PA, -1 MA, equal move/jump.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread
Post by: Zaen on August 10, 2010, 04:13:19 PM
Ninjas should either have more PA or more Speed than thieves... What to do, what to do...

But then again, Thieves are better Lancers than Lancers, just like Wizards with Draw Out, etc.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread
Post by: The Damned on August 12, 2010, 01:09:47 AM
Okay, so I can understand Ninja still not having Innate Two Swords (at the moment). However, the ability list for Ninjutsu is still contrary. Now, instead of merely missing the elementals like before, it has the much confusing information that Katon, Raiton and Suiton rely on the Untruth formula, are thusly magically and can trigger Counter Magic.

So...are those three supposed to be actually use Untruth or are they supposed to use SP*PA like you mentioned earlier?

(Similarly, is Shuriken actually SP*WP? Or is it also supposed to be SP*PA?)

Also, Mime still not having a Reaction skill makes me sad-face. :(
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread
Post by: FFMaster on August 12, 2010, 01:21:35 AM
The SP*PA hack affected all weapons, which was why it was dropped. Shuriken for the moment is SP*WP. I can't do the same for the other 3 skills, since formula 63 ignores elements. The next best thing was to use Untruth, until I can find a formula to edit that won't mess other ones up.

EDIT: Someone suggested increasing Ninja PA to about 12.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread
Post by: The Damned on August 12, 2010, 01:35:03 AM
Oh, right, that's unfortunate. I just wanted to be sure, really.

I'm going to have to disagree with PX for once. If anything IMO (though I shouldn't have to say that) is to change about Ninja's PA, then it needs to be dropped a bit so they can get two Swords back Innately (since really there's little reason to use them over Thief now, esp. with Thief acquiring the Ruins). They'd just maybe need to be banned from using Martial Arts Support if they get back Two Swords innately.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread
Post by: FFMaster on August 12, 2010, 02:06:19 AM
I disagree with arbitrary bannings. If I started stuff like that, people would ask for random things like Excalibur being unbanned if units didn't have speed save/speed boosting equipment/whatever. I really hate doing shit like that. it needlessly complicates things.

I'll mess around with teams of 4 dual wielding units and see how balanced it is though.

EDIT: It was Pride who suggested the PA buff.

EDIT2: Reducing PA won't help too much. Flails are still WP*WP.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread
Post by: The Damned on August 12, 2010, 02:13:08 AM
Reducing PA was more to do with Martial Arts, but I can understand not wanting to arbitrarily ban things.

Make sure to test screw around with Duo Wielding fists.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread
Post by: Skip Sandwich on August 12, 2010, 02:47:24 AM
The problem, as I see it, is the superior damage output that comes from combining Two Swords with Martial Arts or Attack UP. The former is easy to solve, just make fists incompatible with Two Swords by editing the weapon data for them (the blank space above dagger), for the latter, just lower the PA of Ninja accordingly. Here's an example with Ninja PA reduced to 9 compared to the other big damage melee, the element boosted Ice Brand Paladin (chosen because both builds rely on stacking element boost + Attack UP). Look at this, then just adjust Ninja PA downwards until you're happy with their output.

Ninja Setup (9 base PA plus max PA gear plus Iga/Koga and Attack UP)

9 base gives PA of 15 speed of 9 so XA0=12, this is element boosted(x(5/4)) to 15, then Attack Up'd(x(4/3)) to 20, final output, 2x[20 * 9] = 2x[180] = 360

compare to Paladin with Ice Brand Kaiser Shield, Barbuta, Carabini Mail, Bracer and Attack UP

13 base gives PA of 17 which is element boosted to 21, then attack Up'd to 27, final output, [13 * 27] = 351 plus Ice 2 proc (25% of 27 damage, assuming caster/target faith of 55/55)

As for double flails

Flame Whip has a WP of 8, which can be element boosted to 10, then Attack UP'd to 13, for a final output of 13 * 8 or 104x2 or 208 damage total
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread
Post by: FFMaster on August 12, 2010, 03:14:07 AM
I just realised that my stat tables were wrong for male Mediator and Thief

As for Mime, I can give them Counter I guess?

Still not sure about Ninja though. For now, though... Bare fists cannot be 2 sworded.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread
Post by: The Damned on August 12, 2010, 04:05:17 AM
I think people wanted to give Mime Counter Flood and I agree. Also Any Ground as movement, though that's not as necessary.

And as long as Bare Fists can't be Two Sworded, that's what I most care about. Stupid Monks.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread
Post by: FFMaster on August 12, 2010, 06:43:33 AM
The Untruth formula seems to be very glitchy on the AI. When I cast a spell on a unit, it deals about 30 damage, but when I enter an AI battle, the AI can somehow magically cast it for about 150 damage. Same caster, same target, same everything. All that was changed was that instead of a battle at Barius Hill and me entering one, I choose a map in DD.

I might just make it PA*Y straight damage.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread
Post by: Skip Sandwich on August 12, 2010, 06:58:45 AM
try using formula 32 (Repeating Fist) with the X value set to 1, end result is the same as the work formula with no backlash damage.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread
Post by: FFMaster on August 12, 2010, 07:07:28 AM
Huh?

32 Dmg_(Rdm(1…X)*(PA*3+Y)) NS [Repeating Fist.] (Damage is always non-elemental.)

Unless the wiki and Patcher is wrong (and it is for formula 3E) that won't get a PA*Y formula. Multiplication before addition. Also, it needs elements. I was just going to edit Truth to PA damage, since I know that works.

EDIT: I think I have old Untruth working again.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread
Post by: Melancthon on August 12, 2010, 06:02:23 PM
Shuriken is using MP, is this correct?  I noticed while watching the me vs. CT5 fight.  If it is correct it is not reflected in the Abilities thread/chart.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread
Post by: FFMaster on August 12, 2010, 10:42:40 PM
Here are the propsed changes to Skills/Abilities
GENERAL
-Fists can no longer be 2 sworded
-Ninja loses 2 PA and gains 2 swords innate

SKILLS
-Ultima/Ultima 2 now activates Counter Flood, Counter Magic
-Ultima/Ultima 2 are now MA*9 damage
-Ultima costs 450 JP, 6CT and 30 MP
-Ultima 2 costs 600 JP, 8 CT and 40 MP
-Chirijiradren is MA*8 damage
-Other Draw Outs are MA*7 damage
-Katon, Raiton, and Suiton are now (100-Faith)*(100-Faith)*PA*15 damage (still magic evadable)
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread
Post by: The Damned on August 13, 2010, 10:12:54 PM
When you get the chance, can you please put the stat tables in spoilers, FFMaster?

I've been meaning to ask this because I'd imagine that they might slow down less computers (like mine...) a bit and there's no real reason the need to always be open. Regardless, thanks.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread
Post by: FFMaster on August 15, 2010, 01:58:43 AM
editting the blank space above dagger didn't work. you still get 2 attacks.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread
Post by: Skip Sandwich on August 15, 2010, 02:41:06 PM
What about this? we remove Martial Arts support from the game, and instead give the empty hand weapon the quality of +2 PA or something (with a straight PA/2 * PA damage formula for fists, Two Sword-ing Male Knights would deal a max of 171 damage per punch, pretty much dead even with the 2x170 from max PA double diamond swords), monks would then get innate Two Swords (or maybe Attack UP) instead of Martial Arts
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread
Post by: Shade on August 15, 2010, 05:09:20 PM
Earth dragon is twice in lore.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread
Post by: Zaen on August 15, 2010, 05:22:44 PM
Those ideas for removing Martial Arts sound decent enough. I'm more for Two Swords than Attack UP, though.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread
Post by: Skip Sandwich on August 15, 2010, 11:59:25 PM
If monks get Attack UP innate, then ALL of their abilities get powered up, if they get Two Swords, only their regular attack command gets powered up, so it really depends on which kind of carrier is a preferable state for the monk; Equipment/Attack (via Equip X supports with innate Two Swords), or PA Ability (via secondary skillsets and innate Attack UP)
:EDIT: because of monk's lack of headgear, Attack UP support would probably lead to the least significant change in strategy and setups. Also, a quick question, I know that the new ninja jutsu use a PA-based revision of the untruth formula, but is damage from that formula improved via Attack UP or Magic Attack UP?
:EDIT2: Would it be too much to ask to give Asura a non-standard targeting configuration? For example giving it the standard black magic range or making it a 3-way attack, just to spice up Draw Out and take advantage of the fact asura's effect supports such changes.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread
Post by: The Damned on August 22, 2010, 04:21:33 AM
As seen in the battle topic thread, Ultima needs another nerf. It either needs to be single-target or have its MA halved if it's going to continue ignoring Faith.

Ultima 2 just needs to cease to exist entirely. It was never necessary to begin with IMO.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread
Post by: Skip Sandwich on August 24, 2010, 06:07:09 PM
Ultima competes directly with Bahamut for non-elemental ranged AoE damage, so if it continues to ignore faith, it's spell power needs to be based around that

Bahamut@28MA (female scholar + rune blade/holy miter/wizard outfit/magic gauntlet + Magic Attack UP)

40 faith to 55 faith = 147 damage

55 faith to 55 faith = 203 damage

70 faith to 55 faith = 258 damage

Ultima@28MA (same unit)

28 * 5 = 140

28 * 7 = 196

28 * 9 = 252

with the data above, we can see that Ultima should probably be set to MA * 7 damage, comparable to the average expected damage from bahamut at 55 faith
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread
Post by: logus on August 24, 2010, 07:21:30 PM
you should have calculated 70 to 40 and 70 70, since those are the cases in 95% of the time:

70 to 40 =  188,16

70 to 70 = 329,28

Bahamut one-shots most 70 faith units. You either need mdef up or armor to survive that with caster classes.

I still don't think ultima needs another nerf. It's still a double edged skill, as the ai does not consider haste/speed save in the calculations and will usually end up doing ultima at both teams. And those scholars will be pretty fragile. But don't take my word for it: test it. My old lancers team vs. pride shows that for speed save, I've seen it for haste (maybe my elemental team shows that against pride's ultima team as well for haste, I forgot), but you can always check it out for yourself. The last team I posted should have an easy time against any ultima teams, I think.

And even then, if you are still not convinced, I'd sugest changing ultima to use faith instead of nerfing it's Q even more. Cause by nerfing it's Q, chiri would be just better than ultima, due to being instant and having good AoE. And I really, really don't want to see ANOTHER nerf to DO, which would make it plain useless. Murasame is half-useless. You either go full MA or you can't heal yourself properly.

ps: I love damned's idea of dropping ultima2. I don't see the point in making the AI even more suicidal with a bigger AoE.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread
Post by: Kaz on August 24, 2010, 09:35:14 PM
Quote from: "logus"

I still don't think ultima needs another nerf. It's still a double edged skill, as the ai does not consider haste/speed save in the calculations and will usually end up doing ultima at both teams. And those scholars will be pretty fragile.

I agree for the above reason. this could also encourage more use of faster units
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread
Post by: CT5Holy on August 24, 2010, 10:03:18 PM
Removing Ultima 2 would be best. Far less likely to catch and massacre a whole team this way. Ultima should keep its current AoE. Then redirects are still possible (and deadly).
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread
Post by: Shade on August 25, 2010, 06:05:02 PM
just remove ultima 2 and make ultima 1 reflectable
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread
Post by: Skip Sandwich on August 30, 2010, 02:36:49 PM
I kind of want a Comet spell for time mages, dealing non-elemental damage to random panels in an area, something like one of these targeting schemes

A: range 4, area 1v3, hits 1-3 times, no random fire flag (hits entire area with each proc, like 1.3 Meteorain)

B: range 4, area 1v3, hits 1-6 times, random fire flag (up to twice as many hits as A, but each proc only targets a single random panel)

C: range 4, area 2v3, hits 6 times, random fire flag (always procs 6 times, but covers a larger area, so a bit more of a gamble)

EDIT: really like the new change to MA + X% ability formulas, it in particular makes a team concept i've been kicking around much more potent, so you may see that being thrown out there soon.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread
Post by: PX_Timefordeath on August 30, 2010, 03:28:30 PM
Can we change
Equip Sword -> Equip Knight/Sword
Equip Crossbow -> Equip Cross/Bow

Also, Time Mages are rather capped on skills, so in order to add more, we gotta take a few out.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread
Post by: Skip Sandwich on August 30, 2010, 03:42:31 PM
well, we could add Comet to scholar instead, but they hardly need it on top of the Bio line and Tornado/Quake, I suppose Balance could shift to Scholar instead, since they seem like a good place to stick 'gimmick' spells like that. Besides, for a time mage, a better fitting gimmick damage formula would be TarMaxHP - TarCurHP, and be called something like "Recall Injury" or "Recursion". I agree with you on changing the equip X abilities, but i'd rather go with something like the following

Equip Sword -> Equip Sword/Knife/Ninja Sword (one-handed/light blades)
Equip Axe -> Equip Axe/Knightsword/Katana (heavy blades)
Equip Spear -> Equip Spear/Pole/Flail
Equip Bow -> Equip Bow/Crossbow/Gun (Equip Ranged)
Equip Gun -> Equip Rod/Staff/Book/Robe (Equip Spell)

Equip Armor -> Unchanged
Equip Knife -> Equip Clothes/Hats
Equip Shield -> Unchanged
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread
Post by: PX_Timefordeath on August 30, 2010, 04:28:43 PM
Hey, that'd be awesome. And 0 ASM required. I like that.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread
Post by: philsov on August 30, 2010, 08:19:38 PM
Quote
Equip Sword -> Equip Sword/Knife/Ninja Sword (one-handed/light blades)
Equip Axe -> Equip Axe/Knightsword/Katana (heavy blades)
Equip Spear -> Equip Spear/Pole/Flail
Equip Bow -> Equip Bow/Crossbow/Gun (Equip Ranged)
Equip Gun -> Equip Rod/Staff/Book/Robe (Equip Spell)

Equip Armor -> Unchanged
Equip Knife -> Equip Clothes/Hats
Equip Shield -> Unchanged

That scheme works out very well!

Only kink is that robes are on a bad table to be used with the rest of the magey weapons, except sticks.  And sticks are a better fit with spears and flails anyways.  

I'd also like to see Harps added onto Ranged, and wish I could see Carpets somewhere in the mix (teehee), but there's no solid place for them.  =\

For others:
viewtopic.php?f=8&t=4207 (http://www.ffhacktics.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=4207)
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread
Post by: Skip Sandwich on August 30, 2010, 09:34:43 PM
forgot that bit about robes, got the rest of them right from memory though, so yay me! what about this as a fix?

Equip Armor -> Equip Shield/Helmet/Armor

Equip Knife -> Equip Clothes/Hats

Equip Shield -> Equip Ribbon/Robe

The only potential problem here is that it makes Equip Armor even better then it already is, the alternative would be to bundle robes with clothes and hats, and leave equip shield alone.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread
Post by: Skip Sandwich on August 31, 2010, 05:37:14 PM
Quote
   
Skip Sandwich (Posts: 881)    
    * Private message
    * [Tue Aug 31, 2010 12:13 pm]


What if blood suck status no longer counted as Unable to fight? Then it would basically become a more potent version of confuse, but the AI will still attack the afflicted, and if an entire team gets infected, then they can keep fighting on (though the match might possibly devolve into a massive 8-way blood orgy)
   
   
philsov (Posts: 3623)    
    * [Tue Aug 31, 2010 12:15 pm]

....and we could also probably edit the blood suck ability to not inflict blood suck 100% of the time to avoid becoming a zombie swarm.
________________________

Skip Sandwich (Posts: 881)    
    * [Tue Aug 31, 2010 12:18 pm]

We could even make the human version of blood suck not inflict status at all, so only vampires could infect people (at a 25% chance or less), and not infected humans
________________________
      
philsov (Posts: 3623)    
    * [Tue Aug 31, 2010 12:19 pm]

which in turn turns blood suck into a combination berserk/confusion that's easily cleansable. This seems fine :)

Okay, so given the above, I propose we replace the confusion status with an edited blood suck

Blood Suck (elmdor) -> Blood Suck - drains 30% hp from target, range 1v3, area 0, no status, unevadable

Confusion Song -> Blood Kiss - turns target undead unit into a vampire, range 4, area 0, Undead_Hit(Sp + 70%), CT 4, MP 20

Esuna - as before, but also clears Blood Suck status

Stigma Magic - as before but also clears blood suck status
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread
Post by: FFMaster on August 31, 2010, 09:06:35 PM
If we can remove the Unable to Fight bit, then yeah, that would be great. But I have no idea where to begin with that...
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread
Post by: Skip Sandwich on August 31, 2010, 09:56:03 PM
what about the KO flag under status effects in the patcher? is that just for show or would that do it?
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread
Post by: FFMaster on August 31, 2010, 10:10:52 PM
Well, removing the KO flag worked... but well, this problem popped up.
(http://i272.photobucket.com/albums/jj174/FF255Master/BloodSuck.png)

Another stalemate. Blood sucked units don't attack each other. We can minimise the chance of it happening though.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread
Post by: Skip Sandwich on August 31, 2010, 10:18:10 PM
well, in my proposal above, the Blood Suck ability itself would be unable to transfer the status, so that would reduce the posibility of blood orgies like above. As for attacking each other while blood sucked, perhaps by messing with the AI flags of the blood suck ability, we can change that.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread
Post by: SilvasRuin on September 01, 2010, 12:10:11 AM
Wouldn't Blood Suck backfire against Blood Sucked people since they are undead?  I don't see how you could get them to attack each other without breaking the AI rather badly, and it doesn't seem like all that great an idea either.

Of course, if it doesn't backfire when used against Undead, then that wouldn't be a problem.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread
Post by: Shade on September 01, 2010, 04:41:17 PM
Blood sucked isn't being undead. So blood suck takes damage right like your guy normally would.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread
Post by: logus on September 07, 2010, 04:50:27 AM
What I have observed so far in stats/abilities (and the most blatant items):

-light robe is still not fixed/a bit too good. HP nerf should do it

-yell costing mp is a very good idea. I'd leave it at 4 mp though.

-met..what? Meteor? Give short charge and you got huge splash damage really quick and good. I might have to make a team to show proof on this one. But here's a tip that I'll show at items thread: the mantle that gives init:faith. This, ladies and gentleman, calls for rape. Actually, a lot of the AoE big magics with init:faith = rape.

- make raise cost around 16 mp, raise2 around 24 mp.

-change thieves' ruins to breaks. The class doesn't have the mp to support ruins, and double stat breaking/ranged stat breaking should be really nice (we'll see if it gets TOO nice with 14 speed).  And if anyone is thinking "oh, but knight had the same problem with ruins, it was balanced!": a) knights have twice as much mp b) knights can equip robes.

- "Unyielding" obviates mdef up. The meta is highly turned to physical attacks, and here we got a skill that helps you with the 70 faith issue AND helps you deal with the massive physical attacks.

-berserk needs a nerf. +30% increased received damage works for me. But as it is right now, it's too good, especially with abandon + defender.

-loved the nerfs on oracle's paralyze and sleep

-overwhelm is still kinda weird. It's not as good as atk up or matk up in terms of raw damage, and I don't think anyone would use it merely for the extra healing...

-mad science... what? 100% reraise on your entire party every 4 ticks or am I reading it wrong?

That's all I got for now. Some might be off, but who knows, just throwing some opinions out there.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread
Post by: FFMaster on September 07, 2010, 05:19:31 AM
-fine
-1 MP wouldn't make much of a difference. fine
-Meteor is overpowered yeah. i'll probably make it random like Skip wanted, since I have no ideas for it.
-fine
-c) Thieves can equip Golden Hairpin
-Yeah, its probably too strong, but we will see. 20% was just a number I pulled out of nowhere.
-not gonna happen. i don't have any idea how to edit the constants for status effects. Find a different solution.
-Overwhelm is just for mixed units. Like a person who wants to run a mixed Samurai or Ninja or something. Its there for those who want it. 25% seemed too much, so I left it at 20% for now. We will see how it goes.
-Mad Science is single target.

EDIT: I just realised that I forgot to change Half of MP. Damn.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread
Post by: Skip Sandwich on September 07, 2010, 01:04:46 PM
keeping an AoE of 3 is 25 panels to potentially hit, so you'd need an average or consistent result of 12-13 hits to cover effectively (effectively in this case meaning at least a 50% chance to hit any given target in the area at least once, adjust this up/down to your own taste/sense of balance). It's up to you if you want it to be able to target allies or not, if you still want it to have that massive AoE, i'd suggest not, otherwise just adjust the # of hits and/or vert tolerance to whatever your comfortable with. Also, reflect + random fire spells is a nono, since if even one hit gets reflected, the ENTIRE spell will be duplicated onto the reflect target.

as for berserk, what if the Salty Rage item also inflicted permanent blind status? Then stacking Berserk + Attack UP becomes a real gamble (except with guns, but ranged direct fire berserkers tend to not make very smart targeting choices). The oracle's blind rage spell and mediator's insult could likewise inflict both berserk and blind status (it would also make those two abilities more useful as the AI views berserk as more of a debuff status anyway, even though our player base views it as a buff status)

Also, since we're running fury anyway, any chance of using your reaction % hack to simply set reactions to 50% constant activation rate?

as for the mixed M/Attack UP-M/Defend UP abilities, could it be possible to make it so that instead of combining both attack or both defend abilities, it combined the attack and defend abilites for a single type? so you choose either Attack UP (+30% phys damage dealt), Defend up (-30% phys damage received) or Might UP (+15% phys damage dealt AND -15% phys damage recieved)
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread
Post by: logus on September 07, 2010, 07:09:50 PM
the AI looks at berserk as a debuff cause it CAN be used like that. Aim a caster with berserk and you got a useless unit. I somewhat like the blind idea for salty rage, as I suggested poison, but blind might be countered by concentrate (which always has been a good option for berserkers). I don't think you got to change the skills, since AI will hardly, if ever, use it on it's allies or strong physical enemy units.

I'd go for 60-70% with the reactions, although I still do love the idea. You shouldn't have to make yourself a huge target for physical attacks just in order to get a decent reaction working.

Just one thing: did finger guard die? I was thinking of making it give status protection instead of just protection against some skills. Is that even possible?
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread
Post by: FFMaster on September 07, 2010, 09:19:50 PM
If I change Meteor to random area hits, it will be in a smaller area, of course.

Zodiac and PX were very much against a set reaction%.

Finger Guard died because it was useless against half of the Talk Skills.

Now that I think about it a bit more, I am actually considering INCREASING Yell MP cost a bit more. It hits 100%, regardless of compat/faith/whatever. Pride's team is making very good use of it, with some battles I didn't record. He is also making extremely good use of Weak/Absorb.

I was thinking... what if I made absorb only 100% absorb, so no weak + absorb at all. Right now, Pride's team is healing for about 300 HP while attacking at the same time.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread
Post by: Kaz on September 08, 2010, 04:37:23 AM
Kind of completely off topic but I think throw-stone should be 100% hit and dash should go bye bye.  No one really uses dash anyways, and the the cancel charging special on throw stone doesnt really get utilized by the AI.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread
Post by: Melancthon on September 12, 2010, 11:41:33 PM
Has there ever been any talk of getting rid of Haste entirely?  I'm sure most of you would be against the idea, but I for one wouldn't be heart-broken to see it go.  I just feel like the AI prioritizes it highly (as it should), and that anyone that doesn't bring Haste is at an immediate disadvantage, thereby limiting options for team creation.  Just my two cents.

Actually, I wouldn't mind seeing Confusion completely gone either.  It just makes the AI stupid and makes fights drag out longer than they should, without the advantages of Sleep, Charm, and Death Sentance (which can also screw with the AI and make fights go long).
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread
Post by: Skip Sandwich on September 13, 2010, 02:25:41 PM
I think haste would be more managable if it followed the FFTA/2 pardigm, basic haste is single target, Haste 2 is AoE 1. Yell would be changed to inflict quick at a decent %hit (just don't let it target the caster, since we don't want the AI casting it on itself over and over till they run out of mp)
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread
Post by: Gaignun on September 20, 2010, 03:38:33 AM
Could somebody justify the nerfs to Yin Yang Magic?  The Oracle has always been an unreliable class due to the hit-or-miss nature of its spells.  Lowering the success rate of Yin Yang spells only makes the Oracle weaker.  What's more, Yin Yang spells are magic evadeable.  A 70 faith Oracle has a 50% chance of afflicting a 40 faith target with Don't Act prior to applying magic evasion.  At best, the Oracle has a 50% chance of making its opponent spend a turn casting Esuna and a 50% chance of wasting its own turn entirely (along with a juicy chunk of MP).  You may as well stack magic evasion and make yourself "immune" to all of an Oracle's spells (and all other spells, to boot) than fiddle around with status-resistant equipment.  Compare this to the Geomancer, who has an invariable 25% chance of afflicting ailments (including the nasty ones, like stop and sleep) at no MP cost nor charge time, and who at least deals damage if the proc fails, and you quickly see that the Geomancer beats the Oracle at its own job.

The one thing to fear from higher proc rates, I believe, would be crippling three or four target afflictions.  To that I say: "make your status manager status-resistant."  If that's still not enough, you can simply make all Yin Yang spells 0 AoE.

The most interesting fights in RPGs involve ailment management.  With Yin Yang magic as it is now, I feel that the Oracle class is wholly unnecessary.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread
Post by: FFMaster on September 20, 2010, 08:23:15 AM
If anything, I've increased the chances. The formula is MA*2+Y. I made it like that to make MA count for more, while decreasing the Y by about 10 for each spell.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread
Post by: Gaignun on September 20, 2010, 11:45:37 PM
The mainstays, Paralyze and Sleep, are reduced by 25%.  MA*2 recoups 1% per point of MA, so an oracle would need 25 MA to be back to where it was before.  The female Oracle has 11 Ma, so Paralyze and Sleep are at negative 14% prior to equipment bonuses.  Recouping the remaining 14% would require a full set of Ma equipment and MagicAtkUP, which would leave the oracle very fragile.  Again, this is at 70 Fa, so the oracle is susceptible to magic damage, unlike the geomancer.

The weakness is compounded with the lack of a minimum Fa requirement.  Removal of the requirement incidentally buffs physical-based teams that can afford to keep all members' Fa at 40.  These teams can forfeit status protection with no fear for the oracle.  Case in point: Pride's double draw out team has no status protection (aside from slow) and sticks together to take advantage of full-party healing.  One would think oracles threaten that arrangement.  However, an oracle with full Ma gear and MagicAtkUp (which, by the way, leaves the Oracle paper thin) has only a ~50% chance of inflicting the samurai with Don't Act.  The Oracle cannot do its own job at exploiting Pride's team's weakness.

What I might suggest, at the very least, is making Yin Yang spells ignore MEv.  I say this after considering the numbers:

Code: [Select]
Oracle with 70 Fa
24 Ma attained with MagicAtkUP

40 Fa target
Ma (oracle)  MEv (target)    Paralyze %     Sleep %
     18           0              55           51
     24           0              58           54
     18          25              41           38
     24          25              44           41

70 Fa target
Ma (oracle)  MEv (target)    Paralyze %     Sleep %
     18           0              96           89
     24           0             100           95
     18          25              72           67
     24          25              76           71

I didn't truncate values mid-calculation, so I might be off by a percent or two.  Evidently, the target's MEv affects the success rate more than the oracle's Ma ever will, and the change is only greater for higher Fa targets.  Keep in mind that Oracles must sacrifice all forms of defensive gear to attain 18 Ma.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread
Post by: CT5Holy on September 20, 2010, 11:54:46 PM
You forgot to factor in faith.

Using your numbers, starting at 170 (just as an example, dunno what real values are). 70 faith to 40 faith -> 47%.
Again, using your numbers, 170-25+11 (from the MA*2) -> 156, 70 faith to 40 faith -> 43%.

That's 4% reduction in success rate. Not even close to 25%

From what I've heard, if the values weren't lowered, 70 faith to 70 faith was around 90% with paralyze. I think it's ok.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread
Post by: Gaignun on September 21, 2010, 12:38:52 AM
By 25%, I was referring to the Y value.  1.3's formulas are Hit_F(Ma+185%) and Hit_F(Ma+170%) for Paralyze and Sleep, respectively.  FFTA's formulas are Hit_F(Ma*2+160%) and Hit_F(Ma*2+145%), respectively.  The point I am trying to make is that nerfs to Yin Yang magic make a weak skill set only weaker.  The calculations I proceeded to write (which I was haplessly retrofitting as you posted) show that any contribution Ma has to the success rate is dwarfed by the target's Fa and MEv, so changing Ma to Ma*2 is inconsequential.  The target's parameters decide the oracle's effectiveness, and not the oracle's own as it were, so a bad success rate stays bad.  Setting the standard using 70 Fa targets is flawed when nothing keeps the player from making 40 Fa teams.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread
Post by: PX_Timefordeath on September 21, 2010, 12:48:17 AM
If the success rate is 30% at 70/40 faith, that says just how high the actually % to land is. If it were 70/70, I'm sure it'd hit every time. Do you want Paralyze/Sleep/Petrifies hitting 40 faith units at a 60% rate? That's just retarded, as it'll ruin the metagame.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread
Post by: FFMaster on September 21, 2010, 12:55:12 AM
Those 2 were nerfed because from tests, they were destroying everything. Everything else was reduced by 10. Also, if you are planning to use MA gear and MAUP for Oracle, you need to rethink it.

11 MA, 70 caster, 40 target, 0 M-EV - 50%

At least 50% to cripple at least 1 unit for 2 turns, 4 range, and a small cast time(might use Short Charge here to speed things up, or maybe Defense UP), while having great HP(maybe some status protection instead, but whatever floats your boat) for a mage since you don't need the MA gear that much.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread
Post by: CT5Holy on September 21, 2010, 12:58:30 AM
I never set the standard of targeting 70 faith units. I will point out, however, that there is usually one unit on a team with high faith -> this unit is easily shut down.
In my opinion, what's stopping people from running all 40 faith guys are the following:
Revival limited to PD, wish, and revive, all easily negated
Healing isn't too great - 120 with Hi-Potion, ~140ish with X-Potion, Chakra needs a monk/someone with Martial Arts to heal for a relevant amount
No buffs - Haste, Wall, etc
Not many ways to have AoE damage - Draw Out, Elemental, that's basically it.
No status infliction

Now, even if there was a Yin-Yang user up against a team of 40 faith guys, they still have their other skillset - they're not useless.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread
Post by: FFMaster on September 21, 2010, 01:01:15 AM
Small correction - Haste can be used by Squires (Yell - 8 MP, 100% hit)
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread
Post by: CT5Holy on September 21, 2010, 01:05:36 AM
Well, the general argument still stands. =/
I'll also admit that 40 Faith teams can use element absorb as another way to heal, but that requires a lot of specialization, and mages are quite useful in that regard (better DO damage/healing, Black Magic)
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread
Post by: Shade on September 21, 2010, 03:39:11 AM
Little correction also, Archer status attacks, grand cross(aoe), spin fist(aoe), cover fire(also aoe), dancers skills, ninjas status infliction, bards status buffs, samurai's buffs, samurai's muramase healing, geomancer and samurai has status infliction also, and another buff from squire(to me square) cheer up and bards healing.




I also think that mages aren't better at healing at all, more weaker to be corrected since raise, raise 2(these two on same skillset) and fairy(and maybe re-raise abilities, just maybe) are only way to raise and in healing there is cure spells and moogle.

40 faith units could crush almost any mage filled team easy and could stand to another teams.

So I am saying the argument falls pretty flat there.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread
Post by: Gaignun on September 21, 2010, 04:06:09 AM
Quote from: "PX_Timefordeath"
If the success rate is 30% at 70/40 faith, that says just how high the actually % to land is. If it were 70/70, I'm sure it'd hit every time. Do you want Paralyze/Sleep/Petrifies hitting 40 faith units at a 60% rate? That's just retarded, as it'll ruin the metagame.
See my table above.  A 70 Fa target with MEv will take a chunk out of the success rate.  The success rate of Paralyze on a 70 Fa 0 MEv target for a 11 Ma 70 Fa oracle is roughly 90%.  Sleep is just above 80%.  Petrify is 65%.  They're not going to hit every time.  Against a 40 Fa target, by the way, the success rates are 51%, 41%, and 37%.  The spells are currently so unreliable against 40 Fa targets as to be useless.    When they do hit, the enemy can cure the ailment in one turn (and free of charge with items or Stigma Magic).  How is this any more imbalanced than one-shot Flare or Secret Fist?  A 70 Fa target is going to kiss the floor every time from a high-powered 100% accuracy Flare spell and force its team into sandbag mode, and all targets without death protection, no matter how powerful, will fall to the high-accuracy Secret Fist.

Of course 70 Fa targets will be vulnerable to Yin Yang magic; they're vulnerable to all other forms of magic as well.  There are so many lovely pieces of equipment that provide status protection: Gold Helmet, Gold Armor, Green Beret, Golden Hairpin, and so on.  Stop building status protection into the poor success rate and give players a reason to use them, or they'll default to stat boosting gear as they are now.

Quote from: "FFMaster"
Also, if you are planning to use MA gear and MAUP for Oracle, you need to rethink it.
I was using max Ma and MagicAtkUP to demarcate the extreme.  Of course full Ma gear is silly.

Quote from: "FFMaster"
At least 50% to cripple at least 1 unit for 2 turns, 4 range, and a small cast time(might use Short Charge here to speed things up, or maybe Defense UP), while having great HP(maybe some status protection instead, but whatever floats your boat) for a mage since you don't need the MA gear that much.
I agree.  In deference to the effect of other forms of magic against 40 Fa targets, a 50% chance to inflict a 40 Fa target with Don't Act is decent.  That is the best case, however.  Give the 40 Fa target a shield and the success rate goes south.  Hence, I suggest that Yin Yang magic ignores MEv.  Also, there's no reason to assume that the enemy will be afflicted with the status for two turns.  The AI is keen on curing status ailments.  A well built team should be able to cure status ailments on the fly, anyway.

This is how I break it down.  In the ideal case, the oracle spends one turn inflicting the status ailment and an enemy spends one turn curing it.  The net gain is zero.  Currently, the oracle has a 50% chance of failing (sticking with the 40 Fa target here).  The oracle initiates the offense, yet the oracle has a 50% chance of putting its own team down a turn right from the start, and that's before considering MEv and status protection!  In the real case, the success rate is less than 50%.  The oracle is now a liability.  By ignoring MEv, the oracle's chance to succeed does not dip below 50% for even the worst of targets (unless it's Petrify or Sleep, and rightly so, since those status effects are more dangerous).  Initiative now favours the oracle, as it rightly should, because luck is on its side.  In addition, Ma now possesses greater efficacy in increasing success rate on average.

Quote from: "CT5Holy"
I'll also admit that 40 Faith teams can use element absorb as another way to heal, but that requires a lot of specialization, and mages are quite useful in that regard (better DO damage/healing, Black Magic)
Draw Out is an effective way to heal 40 Fa teams.  All it requires is one piece of equipment that absorbs an element on all characters.  This immunizes your team from your enemy's use of the element as a bonus.  Admittedly, options are limited to fire and wind absorption.

Quote from: "CT5Holy"
Not many ways to have AoE damage - Draw Out, Elemental, that's basically it.
And both Draw Out and Elemental are two of the most potent forms of offense.  These abilities ignore Brave and Faith modifiers, which, in my opinion, breaks the system for everything else (unless the abilities are made incredibly weak or "unbuffable"), but this is all going off on a tangent.

Sorry for picking apart your posts, everyone.  Quoting simply helps me keep my rebuttals from being too wordy, which they evidently already are.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread
Post by: The Damned on September 21, 2010, 10:04:56 AM
No need to apologize when you have a point.

As it stands now, at the very least, the elimination of a necessary Faith total makes magical, spell-based units, much less teams, innately weaker, especially since Geomancers and Samurai (and, to a much less extent, Mediators) can utilize MA without any of the hassle of charge time or MP costs or avoidance and Concentrate pretty much shores up everything else on the physical end.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Shade on October 01, 2010, 12:05:50 PM
Should all healing spells that have holy as element to be changed since absorb is halved?
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: philsov on October 01, 2010, 04:11:31 PM
......is there anything that actually absorbs Holy in the first place?

I like Cure being holy elemental, as it allows for boosting via equips.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Shade on October 01, 2010, 06:39:52 PM
excalibur and chameleon robe
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: FFMaster on October 01, 2010, 09:47:51 PM
Yeah, they will lose Holy element.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: FFMaster on October 02, 2010, 02:19:18 AM
Proposed changes to Equip X. Mostly similar to Skip's, but I changed it a bit. Agree/disagree?

Equip Sword -> Equip Sword/Knife/Ninja Sword (Equip Light Blade)
Equip Axe -> Equip Axe/Knightsword/Katana (Equip Heavy Blade)
Equip Spear -> Equip Spear/Pole (Equip Polearm)
Equip Bow -> Equip Bow/Crossbow/Gun (Equip Ranged)
Equip Gun -> Equip Rod/Staff/Book (Equip Magegear)
Equip Armor -> Unchanged
Equip Knife -> Equip Clothes/Hats/Robes (Equip Clothes)
Equip Shield -> Unchanged
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Pride on October 02, 2010, 06:50:11 AM
Agreed.  A much better change imo.

I haven't looked at the tables but always a good thing to look to see if any of these are impossible.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: FFMaster on October 02, 2010, 07:02:41 AM
Yeah, these are all possible. Robes couldn't be put with Rods, so I moved it to Clothes/Hats. Anyway, I've tested it and it works perfectly.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Zaen on October 02, 2010, 02:31:08 PM
Huh, those actually seem perfect for what I would require, except for the Katana, Guns, and Ninja Swords...(took them out/changed them into something else)

They are much more broad, so they give more use as supports. I approve.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Kaz on October 02, 2010, 08:10:38 PM
same, i likey
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: CT5Holy on October 02, 2010, 08:11:55 PM
I assume the new Equip X abilities will be moved around (where appropriate) and JP costs adjusted?
Either way, it looks good.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Melancthon on October 02, 2010, 11:01:38 PM
I have wanted "Equip Stick" forever.  I can't wait to try it on a Samurai.  Some of these might end up being OP, but perhaps not with the new balancing.  Equip Cloths Lancers and Samurai have potential.  Anyway, I love the idea and look forward to trying them out!
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Gaignun on October 09, 2010, 04:52:03 AM
I have another suggestion that's slightly more benign.  Can the JP cost on stat recovery items be lowered to, say, 80 apiece?  This will allow item users to be on status duty without feeling the JP crunch.  Expanding recovery options will help once monsters hit the field.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: FFMaster on October 09, 2010, 08:35:40 AM
I will reduce the more expensive ones, but not to 80. 80 JP to cure Don't Move/Dont Act? Curing Zombie is much more powerful than curing Poison.

I was thinking

Echo Grass - 80 JP
Maiden's Kiss - 120 JP
Soft - 130 JP
Holy Water - 300 JP
Bandage - 250 JP

EDIT: And yes, removal of minimum Faith has had a huge impact on the metagame. With monsters entering the fray, I think the standard would probably become 40 Faith for every unit. Time to dust off Ninja skillset and put it on Paladin I guess.

EDIT2:
Class/Skill changes list so far
- Paladins can now equip Axes and Katanas
- Archers can now equip Guns
- Thieves can now equip Swords
- Lancers can now equip Poles
- All Cure spells, Raise 1/2 and Fairy lose Holy Element
- Meatbone Slash moves to Samurai(from Monk)
- Steal Heart no longer requires opposite gender
- Equip X reworked
   Equip Sword -> Equip Sword/Knife/Ninja Sword (Equip Light Blade - Thief, 350JP)
   Equip Axe -> Equip Axe/Knightsword/Katana (Equip Heavy Blade - Paladin, 400JP)
   Equip Spear -> Equip Spear/Pole (Equip Polearm - Lancer, 350JP)
   Equip Bow -> Equip Bow/Crossbow/Gun (Equip Ranged - Archer, 400JP)
   Equip Gun -> Equip Rod/Staff/Book (Equip Magegear - Scholar, 250JP)
   Equip Knife -> Equip Clothes/Hats/Robes (Equip Clothes - Squire, 250JP)
   Equip Armor -> Unchanged
   Equip Shield -> Unchanged
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Skip Sandwich on October 09, 2010, 05:35:48 PM
I am liking all of these proposed changes, especially the proposal to add some sort of inverse-faith Inquisition style ability to the paladin skillset, speaking of which...

Inquisition: Range 4, AoE 0, deals (100-Cfaith) * (100-Tfaith) * PA * 20 non-elemental damage, CT 0, MP cost 10

The ninja justus already deal inverse faith elemental damage, and as such have a higher damage potential with elemental boosting, so I think the paladin inverse faith ability should be non-elemental for reliability at the cost of damage.

Also, does anybody else think that Dia would be a little better if it were either moved to the Priest or used the elemental damage formula?
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Shade on October 09, 2010, 11:19:21 PM
Quote from: "FFMaster"
I will reduce the more expensive ones, but not to 80. 80 JP to cure Don't Move/Dont Act? Curing Zombie is much more powerful than curing Poison.

I was thinking

Echo Grass - 80 JP
Maiden's Kiss - 120 JP
Soft - 130 JP
Holy Water - 300 JP
Bandage - 250 JP



Stigma magic 100 jp, Heals Ptrf, Conf, Brsk, Sil, Blnd, Frog, Psn, Slp, DA, DM

Esuna 280 jp, heals same as stigma magic

Vampire and zombie are status only from chemist and should be only one that costs that much, bandage could be still be halve less man.

Quote from: "Skip Sandwich"
Also, does anybody else think that Dia would be a little better if it were either moved to the Priest or used the elemental damage formula?

I had priests with dia they did 150 damage on neutral and 70 to 70 faith. Easy way to kill 70 faith units. Sadly now that elemental absorb are halved, cause I was using it as healing method(paladins with excalibur). It was 6 range 150 hp heal instanly.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: FFMaster on October 09, 2010, 11:43:29 PM
But remember, Stigma has 0 vert and no range. Esuna has a charge time, which really hurts it when healing DM/DA. I've seen units get healed of DM/DA from Esuna after they move way too many times.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Shade on October 10, 2010, 12:35:29 AM
Remember DA takes 1-2 turns to stop. Item also has no range unless you give throw item(250 jp more) or have unit as chemist. Also remember that stigma magic is aoe not single target. I have seen esuna do instant heals and it's aoe too. Finally both of them heal all those status instead of one or 2.

Item skill set takes too much jp to begin with(x-pot, hi-ether, maiden's kiss, soft, holy water, bandage, pd 1500 jp[at the moment]). So why is bandage still so damm high jp?
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: ffta707 on October 11, 2010, 12:06:15 AM
It seems like Squire's C-EV should be a tad lower. I'm not sure why though. It would seem more right with the other growths.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: FFMaster on November 06, 2010, 10:36:20 PM
BETA124 Changelog
Code: [Select]
GENERAL
- All equipment done with text editting


JOBS
- Paladins can now equip Axes and Katanas
- Archers can now equip Guns
- Thieves can now equip Swords
- Lancers can now equip Poles
- Ninja gains 1 PA
- Mime reaction changed to Counter Flood

SKILLS
- Chemist Skill JP costs changed(most skills around 80-150 JP)
- Cure 3 now 250 JP
- Cure 4 now 350 JP
- Raise 2 now 300 JP
- Holy now 500 JP
- Level 2 black magic now 120 JP
- Level 3 black magic now 190 JP
- Level 4 Black magic now 260 JP
- Death now 400 JP
- Flare now 550 JP
- All Cure spells, Raise 1/2 and Fairy lose Holy Element
- Meatbone Slash moves to Samurai(from Monk)
- Steal Heart no longer requires opposite gender
- Equip X reworked
Equip Sword -> Equip Sword/Knife/Ninja Sword (Equip Light Blade - Thief, 350JP)
Equip Axe -> Equip Axe/Knightsword/Katana (Equip Heavy Blade - Paladin, 400JP)
Equip Spear -> Equip Spear/Pole (Equip Polearm - Lancer, 350JP)
Equip Bow -> Equip Bow/Crossbow/Gun (Equip Ranged - Archer, 400JP)
Equip Gun -> Equip Rod/Staff/Book (Equip Magegear - Scholar, 250JP)
Equip Knife -> Equip Clothes/Hats/Robes (Equip Clothes - Squire, 250JP)
Equip Armor -> Unchanged
Equip Shield -> Unchanged
- Draw Outs which deal damage are now Magic evadable
- Chirijiraden is now 400 JP


ITEMS
- All equipment with Absorb: X is always neutral

Unless someone objects, or I am missing something.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: ffta707 on November 06, 2010, 10:48:28 PM
Thieves should be able to equip guns.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: The Damned on November 07, 2010, 06:39:50 AM
And the justification for Thieves being able to equip guns would be...? It's not like these things are pistols, so I'm legitimately curious.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: ffta707 on November 07, 2010, 08:45:21 PM
Quote from: "The Damned"
And the justification for Thieves being able to equip guns would be...? It's not like these things are pistols, so I'm legitimately curious.

Aren't they pistols?

Thieves are more likely to be carrying pistols than Knives. Thieves are stereotyped with knives only in the FFT series. How many times do you see a thieve hold a store at knife point?

Wouldn't hurt to change it up a bit and try something new.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: The Damned on November 08, 2010, 05:33:31 AM
I think only the Blast Gun or something is a pistol. Like with everything else, it'd been months since I've looked at the sprites of...anything, much less the weapons. That said, the guns in this game tend to be more like shotguns or rifles than pistols.

Also, you'd be surprised what people can hold up a store with and have, but that's not really a valid point of comparison for justifying things anyway, so let's drop that argument please.

I'm all for listening to (most) possible changes, but considering that no one has even tested out the last couple of rounds of changes, that Thieves' changes really have been tested that much as it is and that Guns are still kind of a big deal for classes to have innately even with Projectile Guard means that it should warrant some caution.

Still, I could have asked a better question: Why do you think that Thieves need Guns enough for you to suggest that they do?
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Zaen on November 08, 2010, 01:11:17 PM
Also, think thieves of this time period... a gun would be very counter-productive, as it was all about stealth. So... nix!
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: ffta707 on November 08, 2010, 08:00:10 PM
Quote from: "The Damned"
I think only the Blast Gun or something is a pistol. Like with everything else, it'd been months since I've looked at the sprites of...anything, much less the weapons. That said, the guns in this game tend to be more like shotguns or rifles than pistols.

Also, you'd be surprised what people can hold up a store with and have, but that's not really a valid point of comparison for justifying things anyway, so let's drop that argument please.

I'm all for listening to (most) possible changes, but considering that no one has even tested out the last couple of rounds of changes, that Thieves' changes really have been tested that much as it is and that Guns are still kind of a big deal for classes to have innately even with Projectile Guard means that it should warrant some caution.

Still, I could have asked a better question: Why do you think that Thieves need Guns enough for you to suggest that they do?

I never considered it an argument. I just gave a suggestion, that really didn't deserve any justification. I thought it would be cool to give thieves a gun, so I posted it. After all, it is a forum, and we are here to help.

P.S. Sorry for posting; I'm not very in depth when it comes to formulas and stuff like that.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: The Damned on November 09, 2010, 04:31:49 AM
No need to apologize for suggesting something. I knew it was a suggestion; I was just wondering why you thought that it should be that way or why you thought Thieves might need Guns.

I suppose I should try to refrain from using "argument" so casually in the future since I tend to use it in the neutral "logical argument" sense and keep forgetting that it carries negative connotations of anger and such to most people.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: FFMaster on November 09, 2010, 08:23:14 AM
Tables updated to match BETA124.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Skip Sandwich on November 09, 2010, 02:55:22 PM
I see by the changelog that bards and dancers have regained Cheer Song and Slow Dance, is there any particular reason for this? I ask because song/dance is still currently mimeable correct? permament +/- speed has a huge effect, since the ONLY way to counter it is by running the same thing yourself. The same goes for all the stat beaks, actually, its just that speed has a much larger effect per pont of increase/decrease.

I'm not sure what to do about this though, +/- speed can be easily changed to haste/slow status, (Speed save is still a problem for now though) but +/- PA/MA is a trickier matter (Not as much of a priority though, since it mostly only affects the unit's ability to deal damage, and there are plenty of unit builds that are perfectly viable even with PA/MA both reduced to 1).

In my dream world, Berserk, Faith and Innocent status would all behave like the Chicken status, in that they are triggered by going above/below certain brave/faith thresholds and your brave/faith is restored/depleted every turn until you return to that theshold (at which point the status terminates). I'd also make it so that both brave and faith are capped at +/- 50% damage dealt/recieved. For faith, this actually makes more sense then the current model, where you can become immune to a REAL TANGIBLE EFFECT by not believing it it.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: FFMaster on November 09, 2010, 07:10:49 PM
I brought back Cheer Song/Slow Dance to see how much it affected the game. It is a powerful ability, yes, but it would take a while to see the effects, just like Speed Save. Right now, I much prefer Lore + Mime + Speed Save anyway. 70% to trigger compared to 50%. I am pretty worried about Slow Dance though.

And you can keep dreaming about those statii, it won't happen any time soon =p.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Shade on November 09, 2010, 07:22:06 PM
Quote from: "FFMaster"
I much prefer Lore + Mime + Speed Save anyway.

But mime can counter with counter flood now, and kill the lore user, making this tactic alot riskier then 3 mime's and slow dance, or cheer song
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: PX_Timefordeath on November 09, 2010, 10:43:03 PM
I say lower Cheer Song and Slow Dance to 25% hit
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Shade on November 10, 2010, 05:09:16 AM
Agreed, but sadly we need to wait next version.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: The Damned on November 10, 2010, 05:55:56 AM
Yay at Mimes getting Counter Flood and Draw Out being M. Evadable. (I'm guessing we can't make Geomancy M. Evadable, though, right?)

Boo at not getting to test Half Absorb and Cheer Song & Slow Dance returning.

Quote from: "Skip Sandwich"
In my dream world, Berserk, Faith and Innocent status would all behave like the Chicken status, in that they are triggered by going above/below certain brave/faith thresholds and your brave/faith is restored/depleted every turn until you return to that theshold (at which point the status terminates). I'd also make it so that both brave and faith are capped at +/- 50% damage dealt/recieved. For faith, this actually makes more sense then the current model, where you can become immune to a REAL TANGIBLE EFFECT by not believing it it.

Wow, it is really eerie how much we think alike on certain things.

Well, I guess since Skip already addressed everything else I was going to address, there's nothing more to stay here with regards to version 124.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: ffta707 on November 11, 2010, 07:39:59 PM
Quote from: "The Damned"
No need to apologize for suggesting something. I knew it was a suggestion; I was just wondering why you thought that it should be that way or why you thought Thieves might need Guns.

I suppose I should try to refrain from using "argument" so casually in the future since I tend to use it in the neutral "logical argument" sense and keep forgetting that it carries negative connotations of anger and such to most people.

No worries. XD
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: pokeytax on November 13, 2010, 12:59:13 AM
Is Steal Heart unisex?  It seems to still be opposite sex only.
Unrelatedly, I think handbags are using the axe formula, I am getting beastly damage.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: PX_Timefordeath on November 13, 2010, 01:09:55 AM
Bags have always used axe formula.

Also, I thought Steal Heart was made no sex? It's probably just the AI.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: FFMaster on November 13, 2010, 01:11:22 AM
Yeah, seems I forgot to save the fftpatch when I did the quick change for Steal Heart. And yes, bags use the Axe formula. I may nerf them a bit more though.

Expect a new patch to fix these problems + Speed Song/Dance in a few hours.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: FFMaster on November 14, 2010, 04:15:45 AM
As people have seen a a little while ago, pokeytax managed to pull out 70% Charms by maximising MA and using the MA*2+X formula really well. However we can actually increase it even more.

For example, if we used MAUP, it would easily break the 80% hit rate, and maybe break 85%. PX calculated that the max so far is 91% at neutral compat. Even worse, stuff like Mimic Daravon, Blackmail(1.3's Threaten) and a bunch of other skills will have this effect as well. Faith based hit% spells do not get as big an improvement, but it is still there. Now, what should be done?

Here are a couple things I can think of:
- Change hit% formula back to MA*X
- Reduce the X for those spells
- Leave things as they are(too early to say whether it is too powerful)
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Pride on November 14, 2010, 04:27:33 AM
I think without question it is too powerful, leaving the last option not really an option. Without a X value, Charm with max equipment and mau would then hit 56% on neutral compatibility. That could be used as a baseline to determine how much of a X those status spells that use MA*2 + X should have. I would rather not have the first option and keep ma as a more important factor in the faith based status spells.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: CT5Holy on November 14, 2010, 05:07:39 AM
The problem if we reduce the X, then low MA units suffer even more from using these skills (Steal Heart, Talk Skills). Old formula of MA+X is probably the way to go.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: pokeytax on November 14, 2010, 01:41:49 PM
Part of the problem is it's easier to get high MA across a range of classes in Arena - you don't have to completely sacrifice HP to get a Samurai with 17 MA.

K+MA*2 for unisex Steal Heart is absurdly broken, I'm still not sure how I dropped three matches running around with Allure.  I hate charm.  I think you should drop it to K+MA and keep K around 35, charming both genders is a huge buff.  Maybe even just make it K. I hate charm.

K+MA*2 for Talk Skill?  Probably pretty strong, but not necessarily broken.  A lot of these skills need a boost. Maybe drop the K on Mimic Daravon, which is the only talk skill that can turn a match around like Steal Heart.

K+MA*2 for faith-based magic was a much needed change.  It's basically K+MA for 70 faith targets, K+0.6*MA for 40 faith targets.  If your MA is cranked to the roof with Magic Attack UP, I don't see anything wrong with a success rate of 75% on the Death spell.  It's not costless to invest in MA gear.

Magic can also be evaded and reacted to, while Talk Skill and Steal Heart are unevadable and unreactable.  That is a serious strength.

If you have to choose one I would go back to K+MA.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Shade on November 14, 2010, 01:52:22 PM
ma only shit back to old formula and faith shit not.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: FFMaster on November 14, 2010, 06:52:19 PM
Quote from: "Shade"
ma only shit back to old formula and faith shit not.
Not possible with my current knowledge.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Skip Sandwich on November 14, 2010, 07:38:07 PM
Steal heart needs to go back to a gendered formula for sure, it is instant, ranged, moderate to high success% depending on optimization.

We could replace Confusion Song with a Charm spell, so we can have our non-gendered charm status, but balanced by CT, MP cost, and vunerability to silence/low faith
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Zaen on November 14, 2010, 07:41:47 PM
Quote from: "Skip Sandwich"
Steal heart needs to go back to a gendered formula for sure, it is instant, ranged, moderate to high success% depending on optimization.

We could replace Confusion Song with a Charm spell, so we can have our non-gendered charm status, but balanced by CT, MP cost, and vunerability to silence/low faith


This, plus it gets rid of the "problem" of stalemates.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: FFMaster on November 14, 2010, 11:26:46 PM
Reckon the lack of Charm recovering abilities could be affecting this?

Also random side

Hit% for Steal Heart
Arena - MA*2 + 35%
1.3 - MA + 40%

And right now, I am liking Skip's suggestion.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: FFMaster on November 15, 2010, 02:19:02 AM
What do you guys think of making Steal Heart Speed + 40% chance to hit?

EDIT: What about ways to heal Charm (Esuna, Stigma Magic, Item, maybe a new Paladin Skill?)
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: pokeytax on November 15, 2010, 02:57:12 AM
40 + SP is much better, 35 maybe?  I still think it is too strong as a unisex ability, but since Charm doesn't last forever like in vanilla it's not gamebreaking.  More ways to heal Charm without having to inflict damage might help too - not sure how the AI would react, but worth a try.

A Charm spell is a lot less problematic because of CT/Faith, that's a good idea.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: FFMaster on November 15, 2010, 03:13:15 AM
Here is the current changelog

Changelog
GENERAL
- Previous bugs fixed

JOBS
- Thief gains a new buyabe reaction: Awareness - 200 JP(front evasion% for all sides)

SKILLS
- Secret Fist is now evadable and is now Hit_(MA*2+50)%
- Steal Heart is now Hit_(Speed+35)%
- Blackmail, Insult and Mimic Daravon X reduced by 10
- Confusion Song replaced with Beguile
- Shuriken is now 6 range
- Katon, Raiton and Suiton are now 6 range and are not evadable
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: PX_Timefordeath on November 15, 2010, 04:09:42 AM
I propose we buff up Poison to 1/4th Max HP Damage a tick. As it is right now, move hp+ nearly cancels it.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: CT5Holy on November 15, 2010, 04:33:23 AM
Demi per turn? That's ridiculous. Up to 1/6 Max HP seems more reasonable.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Pride on November 15, 2010, 05:03:51 AM
I think the damage done by Poison is solid enough, but I wouldn't mind seeing it buffed through ct.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Skip Sandwich on November 15, 2010, 01:40:00 PM
IIRC, the hack to buff poison damage changes it to 1/4th Current HP, rather then rather then the current 1/8th max hp.

As for ways to heal Charm status, anything that used to cure/prevent confusion should now cure/prevent charm, since we've removed confusion anyway.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: pokeytax on November 15, 2010, 03:04:59 PM
While testing Salty Rage I found Abandon + Darkness means 0% chance to hit, even with Concentrate.  That's pretty strong.
Poison could be stronger, but it's a useful drain on resources now.  Move-HP Up can naff off though.
Awareness is nifty, and a useful alternative to Abandon, but strengthens Concentrate further.  Who cares though, it's already a guaranteed equip on most physical teams anyway.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: FFMaster on November 15, 2010, 09:00:01 PM
Changes to Elemental(still under construction)
ELEMENTAL
Pitfall - Darkness
Water Ball - Frog
Hell Ivy - Slow
Carve Model - Petrify
Local Quake - Don't Move
Kamaitachi - Silence
Demon Fire - Oil
Quicksand - Death Sentence
Sand Storm - Stop
Blizzard - Sleep
Gusty Wind - Don't Act
Lava Ball - Dead


EDIT: I wouldn't trust the %'s for that Darkness hack. Wait until next patch before we discuss Darkness.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Skip Sandwich on November 16, 2010, 12:55:57 AM
I like these changes, it puts the power of various elemental attacks a bit more in line with how common those surface types are. One thing though, I see that Demon Fire inflicts Oil status, but I was under the impression that Oil status has not been fixed in Arena, is that incorrect? It would be great if that is the case, since it would be quite a fun status to play around with.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: FFMaster on November 16, 2010, 01:05:43 AM
Oil is getting implemented next patch, assuming Razele's hack works.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Zaen on November 16, 2010, 03:08:02 PM
If I recall correctly, formerdeathcorps fixed the Oil hack in his topic. He also had some other nifty hacks as well. But yeah, he separated the Float from the Oil hack and also separately fixed the Float hack.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: pokeytax on November 16, 2010, 06:51:20 PM
Dancers and Bards need a buff.  Sick of seeing Singing and Dancing Paladins.  I am guilty too, but a Paladin is a washing machine with legs.  No one wants to see or hear that garbage.  Dancers and Bards should either be reasonable choices to Sing and Dance with, or reasonable choices to actually fight with.

You could buff Harps and Cloth - Cloth is especially weak, let's not even get into the cruel irony of excellent W-EV% on a Performing weapon.  They are actually very cool and clever right now, but right now the balance is "Initial: Protect, Defend" vs. "Equip Armor and Equip Shield innate and 60 HP" which is not a fair contest.  Fairy Harp and Bloody Strings are more like it!  Just, not enough to justify a Bard right now.  

You could buff the classes themselves.  The simplest solution is innate Overwhelm (which might even make them better at Life/Angel/Wiznaibus/Witch Hunt than other classes!) Or you could tinker with growths - because there is no male Dancer, you can set higher growths and balance Dancer against male PA classes, and Bard against female MA classes.  Or you could do more off-the-wall stuff (Bard MPM 150, Dancer C-EV% 45? Two Hand Harps, Two Sword Cloth, or Pole Dancer comedy option).
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Squidgy on November 20, 2010, 12:04:39 AM
Shadow Shade on Scholars only hits the first target currently. (Not a popular ability I assume)

Kinda ruined my gag group... oh wait, I know how to fix it.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: FFMaster on November 20, 2010, 03:18:09 AM
That might be because of the animation I chose. I'll check it really quickly.

EDIT: Yeah, the animation doesn't like hitting multiple units. But it works just fine. Will be fixed in next patch.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Gotwald on November 21, 2010, 01:16:53 AM
Could we just make the scholar spells look like other spells? Like, have the earth tome spell look like quake? it would go WAYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY faster, and should still show the animation for the damage and healing (as quake already does that)
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: FFMaster on November 21, 2010, 01:35:04 AM
We could, yeah, but it would be confusing since they already have the Quake spell, which uses that exact same animation. Spell names already do not appear, and now they have 2 spells which use the exact same animation? I agree the slowdown is bad, but that will just confuse people even more. I would rather remove persevere from Scholar and double the damage it deals.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: pokeytax on November 21, 2010, 07:02:38 PM
Paladins seem kinda overpowered.  Best HP, best PA, best equips, an actual skillset instead of Battle Skill, enough MP to cast any spell you want a Paladin casting.

Wiznaibus is unusable, my team certainly isn't the best possible setup but a dead slot would have been better.  I think 2.5x damage and 2x CT might make it barely garbage-tier viable.

I'll kinda miss the artificial Cheer Song from Speed Save/Lore, but I think FFMaster's solution is best, all in all.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Zaen on November 21, 2010, 07:44:53 PM
Yeah... Paladins are OP. Especially with Axes. I mean, 712 damage? Ridiculous. They are basically 1HKO killing machines in most cases. It would almost be best to make Squires more of a Knight class with better PA, slightly lower HP, Ultima + Breaks or something like that, and Axes. Then, ...axing... axes from Paladin.

Just a few possible remedies.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Shade on November 21, 2010, 09:44:13 PM
How about 812 damage on 1.3 without any kind of damage boost(at AI tournament). It's called luck, axes damage calculation is pure luck. They aren't usually one shotters. At best axes would be changed to lower damage or something. Don't know about best equips, They can equip, or some other very usefull clothes.
20 HP to next best HP
1 PA to next PA
Paladins are lacking MP compared to geomancer and squire
Paladins MA is low
They have also only 4 move
They have maybe the next best equipment at best
They don't have very usefull skillset(even AI doesn't seem to use it much as it does every other skillset)

Their best ability is that they aren't complicated at all, their skillset is yes, but their hp and pa makes them easy to use for straight damage or just tanking. They are not the class that is OP, but it's overrated. I don't see any reason to change expect their skillset.

It's funny that squires have the best equips, very good stats, very good skillset(because of so many difffrent type of abilities(buffs, revival, status heal, PA increasing ability, strong magic, dash and throw stone very good at damage(I have seen 140 damage without crits or anything based on luck), not counting reactions and stuff), So why would you change that class? Squire is so underrated!

Comments on Paladin skillset(not on reactions and stuff):
Nurse: Don't know haven't seen how does AI use it, but it so far doesn't seem to be usefull. It could be kick ass abilty if you would add protect to it :D
Dia:  ... It's so good againts high faith units, but it's no strong on knight at all, so take it for someones else skillset
Consecration: FASTLY WEAK COMPARED TO SEAL EVIL
Transfusion: You could give it HP buff, cause every another aoe heal doesn't take damage and they are good as this(also can be boosted to be even better while transfusion, not so much).
Iron will: Only use that I can think is when AI is at crit and has move hp up, this would add protect and regen to be pain to finish off, but nurse is better then this and even nurse isn't very good
Magic Ward:Only reason to use this if you have full hp and someone is charging at you deadly spell that will follow you and you are out of range to do anything. I doubt that this would be ever used...
Grand cross: could be the best ability to have out of all, just haven't used it.

Overall:
Not good, I have foun every skillset better then this, even
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Squidgy on November 21, 2010, 11:54:21 PM
I don't think the graphic overlap will matter. People will see Scholar, see charging, see it hitting every unit on the map. It should be self-evident, even if the graphic was Ice 1... but the graphic should be lined up with the element.

Paladin for stats + Equip Armor/Shield. Squire for stats + Equip Shield. Paladin skillset does seem to be... lacking, but nobody picks Paladin for the skills. In my mind for skillsets, all I'm looking at is "Status Cure? Worthwhile status Inflict? Rez? Anti-Critical, not-terrible-for-AI heal? MP heal? Haste? Slow? Imba Ability?"

Squire: Status Cure, Rez, Haste... haven't tested Throw Stone or Ultima yet. Squire seems OP to me.
Paladin: Heal, AI never used Grand Cross for me :(. Seems OP too, but only due to HP, PA, and Armor. Would be nice for there to be multiple subpar-skillset "Please Salty Rage Me" jobs, defining each with higher HP, higher PA, or versatile equips... not all 3 on one job.
Scholar: All Magic ruins AI so they'll never Wish/Phoenix Down. Good? Bad? I get annoyed with it, just because my Scholar has Phoenix Down, and ignores using it 'cause she's casting Natural Selection, but I like it too, 'cause anti-Sandbag is good, and they therefore have a niche.
Geomancer: The damage does get a bit ridiculous sometimes, with ignoring Evasion/Faith... I guess that's all Elemental does, so I'm not callin' for a nerf, just some QQ. Stats being across-the-board worse than Squire is an eyebrow raiser, especially since Squires get a very utility-packed skillset.
My 1.3 suggestion on Cheer Song: Clone of Nameless which only does Haste. I do hate how potent Haste is when only 2-3 sources are worthwhile. Time Magic, Yell (sorta)...

Lemme know if I get Shuriken nerfed... least I'm trying to. A Save Punch Art isn't as cool as I thought it'd be, so I doubt that'll get nerfed. MA Save... bah, wasn't impressed. Maybe on a Mediator?
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: The Damned on November 25, 2010, 03:22:44 AM
First and foremost, I'm liking most of the 127 changes, especially Cover Fire, Draw Out and Geomancy/Elemental (though the table doesn't say it is) being evadable now. Not sure how I feel about Critical Quick (which still says it activates on criticals only) and MP Restore activating outside of critical, but I can definitely see why, even if I'm rather weary of the former. We'll see how that takes (eventually).

Secondly, I have to say it's pretty awesome that Oil is working now. FFH did something the original designers of the game couldn't (or didn't, considering other things, get time to) fix. That's definitely something to be proud of.

Next, I would only ask what I say next be considered as suggestions and not taken as demands, especially since I've been kind of gone/inactive as of late.

Lastly, I might as well admit that there is also a bit of bias in the last two suggestions, if only because no one else besides me (at least that I can actively recall right now) seems to use the abilities in question. I will also note that I'm probably going to use bold a lot, even given how obnoxious it will probably look; my apologies in advance:



I think that's all the suggestions I have at the moment. I hate to come back and go right back to being a long-winded, nagging asshole, but I guess some things will never change, even as much as Arena rapidly might.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Squidgy on November 26, 2010, 04:40:22 AM
Never tested, but I heard Fly negates falling damage if you're knocked off a cliff, which makes it more potent than Teleport in an AI setting unless it's one of those rare settings with two heights. Same cost imo, up near 500. Move-HP Up could use a cost raise since it's a definitive best-in-slot... Unless we're trying to make all move skills on par... and nerf HP Up to the ground.

Critical Quick: should I try to break this? It's just asking for it... thinking double Sage + Mime + Crit Quick Conc Pally... or MA Up Squire. I'll replace my gag team with this.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: FFMaster on November 26, 2010, 04:42:16 AM
You can't abuse what has already been fixed. It was a coding error. All hosts should import the new BATTLE.BIN.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Squidgy on November 26, 2010, 05:57:44 AM
Bah... back to the old gag team then.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: pokeytax on November 26, 2010, 02:38:54 PM
The new Lore animations are an improvement.  Cover Fire is still wicked (it was marked as evadeable before I thought) but lots of people are running it so it's getting tested.  Have to remind myself the point of balance is not to remove all effective abilities!

Many JP costs, especially R/S/M, could be overhauled.  I don't think lesser Reactions will ever get used until you have to make harder choices to get Speed Save or Damage Split.

The movement slot is kind of terrible and not much can be done about it (I'm assuming they're a pain to hack).

All of The Damned's changes seem reasonable.  I am going to run a Death Sentence team soon because I think adding Cancel: Death Sentence to Cancel: Dead items is a huge buff to the status, and Holy Water might be a good balance to that.

Right now a Monk can hit 19 PA out of the box, which is pretty sick - I would either drop the 2 PA handbag or revert Monk PA or both.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: PX_Timefordeath on November 26, 2010, 06:32:47 PM
All items with Cancel: Dead do have Cancel: Death Sentence already
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Shade on November 26, 2010, 09:32:13 PM
Also make grand cross not hit on user(makes AI not use at all).
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: The Damned on November 26, 2010, 10:48:39 PM
Speaking of Paladin skills targeting the user, something just occurred to me: FFMaster, can Dia target and hit the person casting it? The answer I want to hear is "yes", but first I need confirmation one way or the other and it's not like it's something that makes or breaks things.

Also speaking of Paladin skills, the life gain from Nurse probably needs to be nerfed to within the 20%-25% range.

Also, I forgot earlier, but Float (Time Mage Movement) could probably stand to be a bit cheaper since it's basically just a glorified Jump +1 that competes with other Movement skills as well as Feather Boots given that the Volcano map is almost never used. Sure, it has Earth immunity, but most people that are concerned with Earth will just use a piece of equipment to absorb it.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: FFMaster on November 27, 2010, 12:05:06 AM
Maintainence can lose a bit in JP cost, yes.

For Holy Water, I do like the idea of removing DS/Oil.

Similar agreements to Maiden's Kiss.

I can make Dia be able to hit the caster, which would be very interesting.

As for super reactions like Damage Split, I'm not too sure about raising the cost. They already take a lot to buy.

As for Move-HP Up and Move-MP Up, I am quite sure I can change the formula they use. In fact, it *may* be possible to make multiple variants of it, each one using a different formula.

The rest, I have no opinion on.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: The Damned on November 27, 2010, 12:51:48 PM
Personally, I think that Speed Save could stand to be even more expensive due to how Speed pretty much strengthens everything and thus is so important. It's also (a lot) easier to abuse Speed Save than it is Damage Split, which I think should probably left as is JP-wise, because even as abuse as it can be, it can backfire (also unlike Speed Save) and inherently weak to Two Swords. The only debilitating thing about Speed Save is that you go through 300 CT (much) more quickly and thus "die" permanently (much) faster than other units. That's not really enough as it is, especially with Lore around to whore with it.

Completely un-related to that (well, I guess not really since I've been wondering this about Lore), how do we tell what's (still) Reflectable and what isn't? I didn't really think to look until I stumbled across the S4 AI tournament--that I somehow completely missed--videos in the 1.3 section.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Shade on November 29, 2010, 03:35:14 PM
Shuriken's formula is OP, with knight sword it does same amount as knight sword would do, not only that, but you can icrease it by speed save, with setup that use lore.
Resulting in 400 hp knight that moves fast and does 200 damage at range instantly.

I wondered that if having strong weapon would make strong, it seems I was right.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: The Damned on November 29, 2010, 04:02:29 PM
I have to concur with Shade about Shuriken being rather disgustingly overpowered, though I think it's more a problem of Concentrate, Paladins and Speed Save all being overpowered individually at present than it is about abuse of Knight Swords, especially when the strongest Knight Swords have the least benefits. I'll quote what I just said in the video thread:

Quote from: "The Damned"
Hmmm...despite it arguably being Ninjutsu's only useful skill, Shuriken needs some type of chance, if perhaps being made evadable. (Concentrated EDIT: Oh, it already is Physically Evadable. Damn Concentrate.) It probably needs more than considering how much Speed Save makes it ridiculous. Oh well, more fodder for my argument that Speed Save's JP cost needs to be increased even more.

Speaking of crappy Ninjutsu Skills, man does Shinobi's Seal blow. I think I've only ever seen it hit twice and even when it did, it didn't do anything worthwhile.

Shuriken definitely needs a formula change since it can be made unavoidable with Concentrate. Problem would be what to change it to given the current...restrictions on usable formulas. I unfortunately can't suggest in anything off the top of my head since I'm well aware how much most of them suck.

Shinobi's Seal definitely needs a boost, though. I would actually say the same thing about Sunken State (in that it needs a JP reduction), but I'd sooner see that skill disappear entirely than start to give a damn about it.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Skip Sandwich on November 29, 2010, 04:33:23 PM
The presence of the ARH means that we can get really creative in assigning restrictions to the use of various abilities. For example, we can make Shuriken only useable while Throw Item is also equipped, or only usable while under Transparent status or only  usable while equipping knives or ninja swords, for example.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Shade on November 29, 2010, 04:37:33 PM
Quote from: "The Damned"
I have to concur with Shade about Shuriken being rather disgustingly overpowered, though I think it's more a problem of Concentrate, Paladins and Speed Save all being overpowered individually at present than it is about abuse of Knight Swords, especially when the strongest Knight Swords have the least benefits.

?
1. Are you talking about ragnarok and protect queen? Aren't they one of the weakest weapons in arena? I consider defenders and chaos blades benefits alot higher level
2. Give that setup 8 wp weapon and the damage will start of 75(about), just concentrate and having knight swords combined with this skill is strong. It just makes paladins very good, cause they can have concentrate and knight swords at the same time.

Shinobi seal should be 75% atleast IMO
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Squidgy on November 29, 2010, 05:35:10 PM
Quote from: "The Damned"
...though I think it's more a problem of Concentrate, Paladins and Speed Save all being overpowered individually...

Yes, yes, and yes.

Concentrate: really kills part of the game. I don't know what nerf would be possible. Can it consider all attacks back? Ignore W-Ev/Abandon? Due to Weapon Guard innate, this support just wins for any phys unit. I was going to put it on my Paladin Puncher, but he ran out of JP. If Conc gets axed, then Abandon would be stronger, but I don't know if that'd be too much a problem.

Paladin: HP + Innate armor = lots of HP. Can set PA Save/Speed Save to make up for other stats if they're bad, but Pally PA is still nice. I'm thinking Paladins should lose the heavy weapon equips. Most encourage not using a shield, which doesn't seem very Paladiny... Or could just make Paladin skills require a Shield, but Paladins aren't well known for their skills. Could make Knight Swords only equipped by people using the support, and balance accordingly.

Speed Save: Hmm... it wouldn't be as bad if there was no attack which scaled with speed, but that's a boring solution. Reduced chance to work with armor equipped? Too abstract? I blame Scholar all-magic on making these saves even more powerful than they already are. Would there be a way to make certain skills trigger counters 50% of the time?
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: FFMaster on November 29, 2010, 09:53:10 PM
Right now, the best thing I can do for Concentrate is to either remove it completely, or remove it's effects when they are inflicted with status(Darkness for example, remove Concentrate bonus and probably nerf to 30% miss chance). Maybe... I can make it just ignore 1 item EV? Like Shield EV?

For Lore, I planned to make it single cast again(no persevere) but decided against it for this version. It will probably become single cast next version.

Shinobi's Seal needs massive buffs yes, but I have been holding it out to nerf the stronger abilities first. Same for a lot of other abilities.


EDIT: Current changelog

GENERAL
- Previous bugs fixed

JOBS
- Paladin loses 1 Jump
- Paladin C-EV now 0
- Paladin MP Multiplier now 20

SKILLS
- Maintainence is now 100 JP
- Holy Water now also cancels Oil
- Maiden's Kiss now also cancels Sleep, 150 JP
- Dia can now hit caster
- Grand Cross is now Holy Elemental
- Katon, Raiton and Suiton can now hit caster
- Katon, Raiton and Suiton now (100-Faith)*(100-Faith)*PA*25 damage
- Shinobi's Seal is now Sp+70% chance to hit, seperate and inflitcs Blind, Silence, Poison, Don't Move, Don't Act(around about 20% chance for each status in tests)
- 5 Lores loses persevere and damage is doubled. Can be Short Charged.

ITEMS
- Stone Gun loses 1 WP
- C Bag loses 1 MA
- FS Bag loses 1 PA
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: The Damned on November 30, 2010, 05:55:27 AM
Those changes are looking rather nice, FFMaster. I do think that Maiden's Kiss could stand to go up to 200 JP if cancels Sleep given how long Sleep tends to last, but we should probably see how it performs at 150 JP first.

With regards to Concentrate, I think it would stop being (as) overpowered if it was actually affected by Darkness AND affected all EV except for Weapon evasion. I'd probably just test it out with the former, first, though if possible. Personally, I think that solution that Raziel said he could come with before he disappeared of making Concentrate be 100 + Br% chance to hit would be the most elegant solution, but I'm not sure if we can do that (yet).

Quote from: "Shade"
1. Are you talking about ragnarok and protect queen? Aren't they one of the weakest weapons in arena? I consider defenders and chaos blades benefits alot higher level
2. Give that setup 8 wp weapon and the damage will start of 75(about), just concentrate and having knight swords combined with this skill is strong. It just makes paladins very good, cause they can have concentrate and knight swords at the same time.

Apologies for my wording it so nebulously:

1. I was referring to Defender and Chaos Blade having the highest WP of all the weapons and, arguably, the least benefits, at least of the Knight Swords. Defender could probably stand a bit of a nerf given it having the highest WP of weapons, one of the highest EVs and being one of the few weapons to prevent a Status as well. However, that's not something I want to address right now, especially since I haven't yet used Paladins with Knight Swords myself between my theme teams and my recent absence.
2. This is true.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: pokeytax on November 30, 2010, 12:42:28 PM
Good changes.

Concentrate is a superpower and needs a nerf or a huge price tag.  Abandon is pretty strong and will be a superpower if 90% of physical attackers can't ignore it anymore.  Transparent is a neat status completely overshadowed by Concentrate. So you want Concentrate around, but not quite so mandatory. I think having W-EV or C-EV unaffected by Concentrate is a good starting point.

If Concentrate is affected by Darkness, Abandon + Darkness means 0% CtH always, which is sick (it was the original theme behind my Secret Hunt team). I guess it's risky to bring a team without Cancel: Petrify and it should be risky to bring a physical team without Cancel: Darkness.  I honestly can't remember how rigorous the AI is about cleansing, but I guess I've seen it use Eye Drops or Stigma Magic to do it before.

Shuriken's basically Throw so Concentrate-Throw is badass here like it is in S3/S4.  Gotta figure out a way to keep WP lower though.

Nicking 1 WP from Stone Gun is actually a decent nerf - 11 WP and Attack Up does maybe 10 more damage than unmodified 12 WP. I was originally going to run it with Salty Rage so we'll see how that goes.

I actually love Grand Cross as-is, although maybe it needs a slight buff to get the AI using it. But adding an element is going to make Paladins into combine harvesters, Defender/Diamond Helmet/108 Gems is a 240 splash that selfheals for 290 after Fury.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: pokeytax on November 30, 2010, 06:24:09 PM
Code: [Select]
ST. AJORA Speed Save, Damage Split
STRONG    Auto-Potion, Counter, HP Restore, MP Restore, C.Flood, Dragon Spirit, Abandon
WEAK      C.Tackle, Arrow Guard, Regenerator, C.Magic, C.Quick, Awareness, Meatbone, PA Save, MA Save
TRASH     Caution, Finger Guard, Absorb Used MP, Distribute, Brave Up, Faith Up

Code: [Select]
ST. AJORA Concentrate
STRONG    E. Armor, MD UP, MA UP, Short Charge, Defense UP, Attack UP, Two Hands, Two Swords
WEAK      E. Shield, Throw Item, Martial Arts, Unyielding, Overwhelm
TRASH     E. Clothes, Defend, Maintenance, E. Ranged, Half of MP, E. Blade, M. Talk, E. Polearm, E. Magegear, E. Heavy Blade

Code: [Select]
ST. AJORA Move-HP Up
STRONG    Move-MP Up, Move +1
WEAK      Teleport, Fly, Ignore Height
TRASH     Jump +1, Jump +2, Float

Here is a tierlist I threw together. I don't want to provoke four pages of arguing about tiers, this is just my own opinion and a sloppy reference for what needs buffing/nerfing.

It's fine to have stronger and weaker abilities, some stuff I have in weak is more niche. The God tier and especially trash is what needs action.  Obviously movement is a special case, I would just lower Move-HP Up and Move-MP Up to 5-7% and move on.

The Equip X abilities, strictly speaking, don't need to occupy the support slot. You could make them freebies that don't need to be equipped, since we're directly editing equipment. Or you could put them in the less useful movement slot. I think these abilities could be balanced by adjusting the class growths and items themselves, but this is another option, although one of Arena's strengths is avoiding these kinds of arbitrary rules and metapatching.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: FFMaster on November 30, 2010, 08:13:18 PM
Moving Equip X to the movement slot... is actually a really cool idea. I like it. Does anyone else like it, or do they think it is a terrible idea?
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Squidgy on November 30, 2010, 08:47:05 PM
Equip X has no contest vs other supports... except Shield and Armor. If Equip Armor and Move-HP couldn't be shared, that'd be pretty spiffy... except there're the classes who can innately equip armor. So... I "support".
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Pride on November 30, 2010, 08:51:27 PM
Its an interesting idea, and I really like it actually.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: CT5Holy on November 30, 2010, 09:51:03 PM
I also think Grand Cross could stay as is. The only way to use it is to absorb the element, anyway. Now you're just restricting it to absorb Holy.

Equip X to movement is a great idea.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: The Damned on November 30, 2010, 10:36:09 PM
I also support moving Equip X to the Movement slot. Only one I'm kind of iffy about is Armor, but thinking about it, it moving to Movement that would mean having to choose between it and Move-HP Up. On the one hand, that stops a lot of "laziness" or at least that combination from appearing so frequently. On the other hand, that favors the classes with heavy armor even more, especially if Paladin doesn't get a HP nerf or something.

Hmm.....
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: pokeytax on November 30, 2010, 10:45:12 PM
How to balance Equip Armor? Leave it Support? Change it to Equip Helmet? Raise the cost? Reduce Helmet/Armor HPs by 10? It does basically cost 850 JP now, since it's the only good Paladin ability, so it's not out of the question to leave it as is.

I think letting Paladins/Lancers/Samurai have Equip Armor + Move-HP Up is fine; previously they were the only ones who could have Equip Armor + any support which is vastly scarier. This might actually be the nerf that keeps my teams from being 50% Paladin by weight!
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: FFMaster on December 01, 2010, 05:55:54 AM
Damn. Changing Equip X to movement in the patcher doesn't work. Then again, I am using 457. Does anyone know a way to change it so that I can buy/equip it as a movement? I don't want to generate a new memcard everytime I want to make a small adjustment =/
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: pokeytax on December 01, 2010, 11:50:30 AM
Well, it's a major kludge, but you could just give every class all equips innately.  Not sure if that's really what you're looking for though.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: The Damned on December 01, 2010, 12:50:17 PM
That'd probably create more problems than it would solve, unfortunately.

Given that I am lazy, talentless bum, I'm also unsure how to solve the Support to Movement problem, though I really should have remembered it would come up.

*whistles innocently*
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: FFMaster on December 02, 2010, 12:07:43 AM
Here is a new changelog
GENERAL
- Previous bugs fixed

JOBS
- Paladin loses 1 Jump
- Paladin C-EV now 0
- Paladin MP Multiplier now 20

SKILLS
- Maintainence is now 100 JP
- Holy Water now also cancels Oil
- Maiden's Kiss now also cancels Sleep, 150 JP
- Dia can now hit caster
- Grand Cross is now Holy Elemental
- Katon, Raiton and Suiton can now hit caster
- Katon, Raiton and Suiton now (100-Faith)*(100-Faith)*PA*25 damage
- Shinobi's Seal is now Sp+70% chance to hit, seperate and inflitcs Blind, Silence, Poison, Don't Move, Don't Act(around about 20% chance for each status in tests)
- New skill for Ninja: Houkouton

ITEMS
- Stone Gun loses 1 WP
- C Bag loses 1 MA
- FS Bag loses 1 PA
- All spears up 2 WP
- All bows up 1 WP
- Ice Bow now casts Ice 3
- Lightning Bow now casts Bolt 3
- Rainbow Staff is now all Elements and 11 WP. Loses whatever it had before.
- All non-status crossbows up 2 WP
- All status crossbows up 1 WP, gains 100% status
- Cloths status changed to permanent
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Skip Sandwich on December 02, 2010, 01:00:38 PM
update tables? I want to see what this new ninja skill "Houkouton" is about
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: FFMaster on December 02, 2010, 07:35:59 PM
(http://i272.photobucket.com/albums/jj174/FF255Master/Ninjabeta.png)
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Shade on December 02, 2010, 08:01:16 PM
Show us a vid how it works.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: FFMaster on December 02, 2010, 08:38:35 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3tLagZsYU9E
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Squidgy on December 06, 2010, 10:44:02 PM
About reactions: If possible I suggest some based on Faith, some flat chance. Phys units can drop faith to 40 and not lose anything, but magic units drop their fury to survive longer, and also lose out on their reaction (unless it's Abandon). If it's possible to make caster reactions (like Counter Magic, Absorb Used MP...) Faith based, it'd be a good boost to casters... And generic boost or generic defense reactions (like Speed Save, Damage Split, Auto-Potion...) could be flat chance.

If that's too crazy, flat chance for all would be a nice change, assuming you can make the chance different for each reaction. Speed Save could be down around 35%... Auto-Potion 100%... Wha'cha think?
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: FFMaster on December 06, 2010, 10:50:29 PM
Either suggestion would take up a lot of time and ASM space. Personally, I think that dropping Faith too low for physical units is more of a hindrance. No access to good revival and Haste does hurt quite a bit. Yell is a good alternative, but is single target. Right now, I think mages could run the show with Flare/Level 4 magic casters. Without the hindrance of 50% damage bonus while charging, they can probably live without Short Charge. But we shall see.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Squidgy on December 07, 2010, 01:23:33 AM
My Black Magic team is quite potent... I haven't tested summons since the buff awhile back... and I should try out Oracle more, and Scholar is used a ton for stats, so its magic will be tested too, naturally.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: The Damned on December 07, 2010, 03:16:54 AM
I guess that means I should try out a magic team sooner than later.

Speaking of magic, though, I have to ask why Float goes its JP increased? Is it because of Iron Boots? I honestly thought it was mediocre even with those given how many Monks forgo Earth Slash, Summoners forgo Titan and Samurai are stupid when it comes to Kikuichimoji.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: FFMaster on December 07, 2010, 03:22:58 AM
I see it as a utility for a load of things. Immune to earth, water doesn't affect you, +1 height (high ground > lower ground =p), no falling damage and walk over lava, all rolled into one movement ability. Pretty strong if you ask me.

By the way... I was thinking, instead of Iron Boots, how about a Movement ability to make move 0? I'm fairly sure it can be done, just not sure how the AI will act with it.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: The Damned on December 07, 2010, 03:36:30 AM
Higher ground isn't always a better, but given that most people weren't used Spears since they kind of sucked, that didn't really come into play. Same with lava and falling damage. I'll grant you the other things, but, if that's the case, then why is Fly still the same JP? It's not a huge deal with either way, I was merely wondering why.

As for Iron Boots vs. Move 0, it's something to consider. However, I'd rather see how non-recurring Lore acts with Iron Boots first, though.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: pokeytax on December 08, 2010, 04:30:57 PM
Throw Stone is pretty strong. I laughed hard at the absurd Monk team but figured it was just Martial Arts + Battle Song, but I tossed it on my Grand Cross knights as an afterthought and they spend most of their time two-shotting people with Concentrated rocks. Concentrate + ranged physical is brutal here just like S4 Throw.

Even without Holy-elemental, weapon-elemental Grand Cross is very powerful on an absorb team, instant splash healing/damage. Houkouton and Jutsus are strong but not broken, I think.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Squidgy on December 08, 2010, 08:28:45 PM
19 MP Paladin?... I mean, it could work, but the Paladin skillset is now barely usable by Paladins. Don't get me wrong, I like the idea of nerfing Paladin... but isn't this shoving them in the Salty Rage corner?
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: FFMaster on December 08, 2010, 08:30:37 PM
Robes, Cross Helm. They basically have the same restrictions as mages who cast higher level spells.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Squidgy on December 08, 2010, 08:53:57 PM
That's if you consider Nurse, Dia, etc. akin to high level spells. Transfusion is good enough to warrant a higher mana cost... in fact, wasn't it 20? I'm still in the mentality of highest HP possible with equips (unless you got a team gimmick like elemental absorb, or... I still need to make an all immune to DA Paralyze team)... but might as well test out the Cross Helmet, since I don't think anyone else has used it.

EDIT: Oh, little minor thing... notice Scholars don't care to use Hi-Ethers on themselves. Back when the spells were recurring they did, but now for some reason the AI just doesn't have incentive.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: FFMaster on December 09, 2010, 02:53:20 AM
What do you guys think of a Support that increases range for the ranged weapons? In other words, Longbows, Crossbows, Books and Guns would gain 1 extra range with this support on. If that consists of too many weapons, then we can change it to whatever we want. I stole this idea from Arch's forum, and thought it would be interesting to do. I can make it in a bit if people like it, but if it won't be used, then why bother?
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: CT5Holy on December 09, 2010, 04:13:50 AM
I like it. Can already start stitching a team together with it.

Include Harps, too? Both Books and Harps are 3 range, so if Books get the range increase, it would make sense for Harps to get it too.

EDIT: Cheer Song and Slow Dance up to 25%? At 20% hit rate, there's a 41% chance that it will do nothing. At 25%, there's only a 31% chance that it will do nothing. Yes, minor fluctuations in speed can make a difference, but if the speed isn't even altered in the first place... =/
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: pokeytax on December 09, 2010, 12:58:15 PM
Quote from: "FFMaster"
What do you guys think of a Support that increases range for the ranged weapons? In other words, Longbows, Crossbows, Books and Guns would gain 1 extra range with this support on.

Sounds good. 2 range might be better, unless it's really cheap - it has to compete with Concentrate and Attack UP.

Quote from: "CT5Holy"
Cheer Song and Slow Dance up to 25%?

Sure. Cheer Song at 30% would be reasonable, I think, it deserves a higher chance to hit than Slow Dance.

I like Paladin MP being terrible, but I want MP to be a bigger constraint in general... I can see why you don't want Paladins to have to equip special equipment to use their skillset, Squidgy. Still, my Paladins are running around Grand Crossing everything with 19 MP and a piddly 2 MP per turn from Move-MP UP. I don't think any Paladin will ever use a robe, though, the HP loss is just too much.

Paladins having 2 Jump really bones them on some maps due to start position (e.g. stuck on the roof in Zaland Fort City). Over the space of all maps this might be balanced, but I don't think people would find it very fun to lose that way in a tourney setting.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Squidgy on December 09, 2010, 07:21:11 PM
I haven't noticed the 2 jump drive me insane yet, but I haven't played too many different maps, and Franz has 6 range...
Grand Cross does so much awesome with Elemental Absorb and looks so pretty, yet costs only 6 mp, when everything else is 10. I'm just thinking the costs are off based on the effect.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: FFMaster on December 10, 2010, 10:11:32 AM
Yeah, moving them to 2 jump was a bad idea. They will go back to 3 jump. And Paladins will have minimum 25 MP, for 2 casts.

Grand Cross... I think needs to go up in MP. I'm thinking 12 MP right now, and maybe a small CT.

Right now, I feel like Thief and Archer skillsets need a good overhaul. Pretty much untouched except for their stats/equips. Other than that, people rarely use Charge/Steal as a secondary skillset. Anyone have any suggestions? I seriously don't know what to do.

Ninja's Nightslayer might be changed. Same concept, but much stronger.
Reaper's Scythe - Deals 100% damage to a unit inflicted with Death Sentence.

I'll probably move Cheer Song/Slow Dance to 25% and see how it goes first.

And for the range hack, I can make it any range, and yes, it would also affect harps. It should affect any ranged weapon.

And finally, I really need ideas for Throw Stone.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: The Damned on December 10, 2010, 12:08:22 PM
So, I was going through the stats rather closely for once and I noticed that Geomancers are basically inferior Squires stat-wise now. The same for Mediators and Chemists. I suppose I can understand why given the move-set difference for the former, but the latter is just...weird given that Chemists get a lot more use than Mediators have ever gotten and they don't even use MA (or Faith).

Besides that, all I have to say is that links to the Item and Zodiac Chart (and probably even team making thread) should be in the first post. It might also be good to put the note that "All Geomancy is 600 JP" here for newer people, though that one seems less necessary.

Quote from: "FFMaster"
Yeah, moving them to 2 jump was a bad idea. They will go back to 3 jump. And Paladins will have minimum 25 MP, for 2 casts.

Yeah, going back to 3 Jump is fine, but they still seem like they could stand to lose a bit of HP, especially if Grand Cross (and even Dia) heals them now.

Quote
Grand Cross... I think needs to go up in MP. I'm thinking 12 MP right now, and maybe a small CT.

It needs it's damage lowered (with respect to Strengthen: Holy at least) given that Knights have no reason to use it with anything but Excalibur, which is already a damn good Knight Sword. (Arguably the best one.)

Quote
Right now, I feel like Thief and Archer skillsets need a good overhaul. Pretty much untouched except for their stats/equips. Other than that, people rarely use Charge/Steal as a secondary skillset. Anyone have any suggestions? I seriously don't know what to do.

Thief is fine, though you never did answer my question about whether you had (or could) make Steal not trigger (physical) counters. Not really you're fault that no one uses it; I was going to give Vega Steal Weapon, but between the JP cost and not being sure about the counter thing, I decided against it.

Archer...I'm not sure. I'll try to think of something, but I know that I had trouble thinking of techniques for them. Hmm...maybe I'll check my notes for my patches....

Quote
Ninja's Nightslayer might be changed. Same concept, but much stronger.
Reaper's Scythe - Deals 100% damage to a unit inflicted with Death Sentence.

That seems fine, though would the computer even bother using it on Death Sentenced people if it avoid them?

Quote
I'll probably move Cheer Song/Slow Dance to 25% and see how it goes first.

Also fine.

Quote
And for the range hack, I can make it any range, and yes, it would also affect harps. It should affect any ranged weapon.

Won't the "gaps" for Harps and Books get really wonky the more range you give them, though?

Quote
And finally, I really need ideas for Throw Stone.

Also not sure on this. I will try to think of something, though.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: pokeytax on December 10, 2010, 02:24:56 PM
Geomancers are overshadowed by Squires and Samurai, who have excellent skillsets and stats (Geomancer has terrific R/S/M but you can't balance so much on that). Could use a few points to PA/MA. Mediators and Chemists are both weak - Mediator has 9 SP but is still outclassed by Archer or Time Mage, depending on application. Chemist at least has a good skillset and innate.

Given that the Grand Cross formula doesn't go lower than PA*WP, higher MP cost and short CT sounds good (didn't realize it only cost 6, that's why I had no problems!).

Dunno what flexibility you have but maybe PA*(1...9) or so for Throw Stone? Also, I am not up on what formulas can take what evasion, but this is what I was thinking for Charge. Honestly I like the direction you took, it just needs to be made more usable.

Code: [Select]
CHARGE       RNG  AoE  VERT  CT  MP  ELE  FORMULA                   EV?  SPECIAL  STATUS           COUNTER
Leg Aim      Wpn  0    Wpn   0   0   ---  Hit_(SP+55)%              ---           Add: Don't Move  C, CF
Arm Aim      Wpn  0    Wpn   0   0   ---  Hit_(SP+45)%              ---           Add: Don't Act   C, CF
Heart Aim    Wpn  0    Wpn   3   0   ---  Dmg_(Weapon)              ---                            C, CF
Execute      Wpn  0    Wpn   4   0   ---  Dmg_(TgtMaxHP - TgtCurHP) P                              C, CF
Greased Bolt Wpn  0    Wpn   0   6   ---  Hit_(SP+60)%              ---           Add: Oil, Slow   C, CF
Cover Fire   4    1    3     0   12  ---  Dmg_((1...3)*(PA*3+60))   P                              C, CF
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: FFMaster on December 10, 2010, 07:28:32 PM
Quote from: "The Damned"
Thief is fine, though you never did answer my question about whether you had (or could) make Steal not trigger (physical) counters. Not really you're fault that no one uses it; I was going to give Vega Steal Weapon, but between the JP cost and not being sure about the counter thing, I decided against it.
Steal will always trigger physical counters. I can't really stop that.

Quote
That seems fine, though would the computer even bother using it on Death Sentenced people if it avoid them?
True, guess some testing will help.

Quote
Won't the "gaps" for Harps and Books get really wonky the more range you give them, though?
No. I tested out the hack, Harps and Books are pretty much 3 range crossbows, increasing the range would be like making them actual crossbow range.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: CT5Holy on December 11, 2010, 12:52:14 AM
Damned: I think Grand Cross is actually weapon element still.

Pokeytax: I don't like Heart Aim, assuming that it's meant to be an unevadable attack. I say we keep current Execute, and have your Execute renamed to something like Wound Aim (or something better, of course). That way you get instant kill on a critical unit, or a kill on someone with <= 50% max HP at the cost of 4 CT (maybe 5 CT? seems quite strong).
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Squidgy on December 11, 2010, 01:13:19 AM
Do Scholars have innate Throw Item? Wouldn't let me set it in-game... minor thing. I'll edit more in this post with skill suggestions... Thief lovin' and such.
EDIT: OMG I just saw my Scholar use a Hi-Ether on herself! So it's possible... phew.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: FFMaster on December 11, 2010, 01:21:39 AM
Oh, that would be a problem in the SCUS. It's because I swapped Chemist and old Calculator around, since there was code to slow down Calculator spells, which is why the Sage spells in 1.3 take so long. I can't exactly fix it right now, maybe in a while. Or... we can have Lore being super slow...
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: pokeytax on December 11, 2010, 03:15:54 AM
Quote from: "CT5Holy"
That way you get instant kill on a critical unit, or a kill on someone with <= 50% max HP at the cost of 4 CT (maybe 5 CT? seems quite strong).

Yeah, the Climhazzard formula is really strong, it needs a longer charge time.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Squidgy on December 11, 2010, 03:43:44 AM
It's a minor thing; I consider keeping Lore fixed of more importance.

Archer: I think the DA/DM makes it unique... Cover Fire has a place for secondary use, but the MP cost lessens that a little. If you want different stuff, I'm thinking steal some of Cloud's abilities pretty much directly, but make their damage PA-based. A Braver with range 5, similar to old Charge, but can be Short Charged... Climhazzard is the suggested execute change by pokeytax, which I agree with, but maybe 6-7 CT instead of 4.

Thief: Steal Heart was all I ever Thieved with, and still all I care for. In the 1.3 tourney Cherry has Steal Weapon since it's a stall team... but I really dislike Steal/Break Equip vs Maintenance. I'd love temporary equip removal, if possible, but really doubt it's so (via a status?) Also... Innate Two Swords... or Innate Awareness? I'm thinking physical Oracle mentality, but only in the uncommon oracle/mediator aspects.

"Heretic" Self: Innocent. High mp. 300 jp.
"Setup" Self: Transparent + Quick, if the AI doesn't go mad using it... Low mp. 80 jp.
"Break Status" Wep range, Phys%: Remove Reraise, Haste, Regen, Protect, Shell, Float. (Steal Status possible?) 200 jp.
"Noxious Gas": Range 0, Area 1 vert 1, Add: Confuse Sp+50 (Melee Mimic Daravon for Confuse) No mp. 300 jp.
"Distract" AoE 2, vert 3, (Draw Out area/range) CT: 00, Sp +20 chance. (Oh, Persuade could use a buff since Mimic Daravon or Blackmail trump it easily.) 200 jp.
Ruins back to Breaks, based on weapon, no mp cost, except Speed Ruin, unless that can be wep% Add: Slow?

Throw Stone... don't like the cancel: Charge version. What about just ranged single-target Houkouton (PA*8)? I always liked the knockback... is that able to come back?
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: PX_Timefordeath on December 18, 2010, 01:46:39 AM
Proposed Squire Skill

Ultima Shot: Weapon Ranged heavy magic attack, big MP cost. Pretty much from FFTA. Or we can put it on Archers
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Skip Sandwich on December 18, 2010, 07:45:36 PM
I feel like mimes might be better served by having Overwhelm instead of Martial Arts as a support, they would benefit more overall, even with the loss of power for their attack command. They also still feel a little too easy to kill for a unit that is entirely reliant on others to heal itself, and they still have 1 support slot left, so why not put Unyielding in there?
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: pokeytax on December 19, 2010, 10:48:58 PM
Quote from: "Skip Sandwich"
I feel like mimes might be better served by having Overwhelm instead of Martial Arts as a support, they would benefit more overall, even with the loss of power for their attack command. They also still feel a little too easy to kill for a unit that is entirely reliant on others to heal itself, and they still have 1 support slot left, so why not put Unyielding in there?

I think Overwhelm is a good idea, male Mimes are better than female Mimes because they have a solid physical attack. While I like the fragility of Mimes balancing their power, losing Concentrate is going to be rough, so maybe Unyielding would be okay too.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Skip Sandwich on December 19, 2010, 10:58:50 PM
actually, unless something has changed, Concentrate would become available ONLY as a mime innate ability, rather then being removed entierly
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: FFMaster on December 22, 2010, 06:12:06 AM
Yeah, Concentrate is still innate on Mimes.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: The Damned on December 30, 2010, 08:20:12 PM
So, while changing my teams over to 129 versions already, I noticed that Concentrate still shows up on Archer's chart despite being verboten as anything other than Mime's innate now.

Less contrarily, I noticed some weird things now that Reflect bars up, namely that Holy and Flare are reflectable and that "Reflect", the Time Mage Spell (which no longer causes Reflect and could probably stand to have a better name), isn't subject to M-EV despite being an attack. These aren't big things, but they seem like they might need addressing.

Besides that, I "look forward" to Thief (and maybe Archer) ending up as an obnoxious gits now, though I will gladly like to be proven wrong, even if I would like for Steal [Equipment] to reappear. Thank you for at least lowering Maintenance's cost, though; however, "techniques" is misspelled as "technipes" still, but that's ultimately still an inconsequential typo.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: CT5Holy on January 17, 2011, 02:25:50 AM
Lich, I agree is strong. It has been that way since 1.3 tournaments, it's just that people have neglected it for other better things. With Steal Heart nerfed and Throw non-existant, Lich can finally show off what it does. Demi and Demi 2 have always been terrible imo, and needs a good boost. Odin will probably always be a gimmick I think.

Right now, Lich trades larger AoE for ~10% success rate. Boost Demi, Demi 2 hit% and lower JP costs as well?

I think Monk's Revive could also see a decrease in JP cost.

Someone mentioned it in the Tournament discussion topic, but Tornado and Quake could also use a buff. I'd go with damage.

Does Execute use Faith because that's the only convenient formula for it? Probably won't matter too much if it gets buffed since no one's using it, anyway.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Skip Sandwich on January 17, 2011, 02:49:32 AM
The biggest problem with Demi 2 is that it is simply too costly in terms of both mp and jp expenditure compared to Lich

Lich deals 50% hp damage with an area of 2 for 45mp at CT 7 and costs 250jp

Demi 2 deals 50% hp damage with an area of 1 for 40 mp at CT 6 and costs 450 jp

by comparison

Demi deals 25% hp damage with an area of 1 for 20 mp at CT 2 and costs 200 jp
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: The Damned on January 17, 2011, 03:12:10 AM
Yeah, that's really the killer when it comes to Demi, Demi 2 and even Death versus Lich: compared to Lich, their success rates are horrible for the JP, MP and range that they take and the limited targets they can affect. That Lich avoids Allies as well is merely the addition of insult to injury.

I think Monk's Revive could also see a decrease in JP cost.

I'd disagree unless it's just a decrease to a more even JP of 400. IMO, Monks shouldn't even be able TO revive, but they can not only do that, barring the unlikelihood of isolate terrain uneven-ness, also heal both HP and MP better than Priests often can instantly.

If anything happens with regards to Monks, I'd say that Chakra and Stigma Magic--which is basically instant, multi-target Esuna for free repeatably for a third of the JP--need to become single-target.

Quote
Someone mentioned it in the Tournament discussion topic, but Tornado and Quake could also use a buff. I'd go with damage.

That was me.

Personally, while upping damage would be nice, I'd be completely fine if their CT was lowered a bit as well, perhaps lowered significantly even if it meant the damage being lowered. Damage doesn't much help their case if they can be dodged.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: PX_Timefordeath on January 17, 2011, 03:16:46 AM
For the faith problem, I propose moving the limits from 40-70 to 60-90. That's the same as adding a constant to faith :P
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: FFMaster on January 17, 2011, 06:00:45 AM
Not exactly PX. Your idea screws over people will plan to use Preach =p

EDIT:

I've been thinking about this a bit now.

For the Demi 1/2 and Lich problem:
Demi - Deals 30% damage, high accuracy
Demi 2 - Deals 60% damage, decent accuracy
Lich - Deals 45% damage(removes easy 2HKO), decent accuracy

JP costs for the spells need to be tweaked as well, I'm thinking of moving Demi to 150 and Demi 2 to 250.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Skip Sandwich on January 20, 2011, 07:06:44 PM
I just noticed a huge problem with Hawk's Eye, currently, it has a CT of 6, but whenever a unit moves after beginning to charge it, the charge cancels, resulting in the waste of a turn. So we either need to make Hawk's Eye instant cast or flag it to follow target.

:EDIT: scrapped what I said about a skillset swap, as it was pointed out to me that the problem wasn't with the archer's skillset but the flags set for Hawk's Eye, apparently this problem happens with any charge skill that doesn't also have follow target flagged.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on January 22, 2011, 08:24:20 AM
I just noticed a huge problem with Hawk's Eye, currently, it has a CT of 6, but whenever a unit moves after beginning to charge it, the charge cancels, resulting in the waste of a turn. So we either need to make Hawk's Eye instant cast or flag it to follow target.

:EDIT: scrapped what I said about a skillset swap, as it was pointed out to me that the problem wasn't with the archer's skillset but the flags set for Hawk's Eye, apparently this problem happens with any charge skill that doesn't also have follow target flagged.

Yep.

I remember this one.  I pointed it out.

My incredibly vague fix for this was to flag Weapon Strike and Normal Attack? and unflag Targeting.  I was mucking about trying to turn Item into a Support Ability when I noticed a different skill I made had this problem, so I mucked around with it for about an hour while failing horribly at using the Generic Skillset Hack to make my original idea work and the AI didn't do its "Charge and Move" thing again even when I offered it ample opportunity to nail me in the back for huge damage + 100% status.  I later removed CT from the skill and modified it some for reasons unrelated to this glitch so I haven't tested more but it's worth trying if it's a skill you don't want to scrap and can't fudge about some to make Instant Cast.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Otabo on January 22, 2011, 02:47:24 PM
Not exactly PX. Your idea screws over people will plan to use Preach =p

EDIT:

I've been thinking about this a bit now.

For the Demi 1/2 and Lich problem:
Demi - Deals 30% damage, high accuracy
Demi 2 - Deals 60% damage, decent accuracy
Lich - Deals 45% damage(removes easy 2HKO), decent accuracy

JP costs for the spells need to be tweaked as well, I'm thinking of moving Demi to 150 and Demi 2 to 250.

What about this?

Demi - 33% damage, 3 CT, good accuracy, 200 JP
Demi 2 - 66% (or 67%) damage, 6 CT, fair to bad accuracy, 400 JP
Lich - 40% damage, 5 CT, fair accuracy. Maybe 35-40 ish MP? At least more than Demi, but less than Demi 2.

Demi & Demi 2 would give another reason to use Time Magic other than the usual. 33% on Demi should be a decent buff to it; it'd put it up there with Life Drain at least, and Life Drain is a pretty good skill in itself. Now that I think about it, 66% on Demi 2 might be too strong, but perhaps the 6 CT (or maybe even 7 CT like Death) + accuracy nerf + JP Cost could balance that out. To be honest, I was thinking about 1.3's Gravi 2 at the moment. Lich as an even 40% would be still be pretty good.

On another note, can we please, please, get rid of song/dance mimicking? Way too strong. Battle Song is mainly the culprit here and is especially imba when mimed because of mimes' innate Martial Arts AND Concentrate. Wiznaibus is kind of bad too, especially for squishies, and when you've got both of them together, it gets crazy. Or at least make only Battle Song either not able to be mimicked or reduce it to Cheer Song's hit%. On its own, it's not that big of a deal, but when there's one or two mimes out, that is when it gets ridiculous. The other songs aren't as bad when mimicked (though, Magic Song could be bad, but it's not nearly as overused as Battle Song is).

Quote from: Skip Sandwich
I feel like mimes might be better served by having Overwhelm instead of Martial Arts as a support, they would benefit more overall, even with the loss of power for their attack command.

I agree with that. Mimes can one-shot anything given a few points of PA from Battle Song. I blame Martial Arts. They need to lose that, too. Overwhelm sounds good on them.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Avalanche on January 22, 2011, 04:37:57 PM
Hello,

i think there is a good reason why Demi is so much weaker than Lich.
Because time mage has the role of a supporter/disabler. If u want an strong atackspell u need to equip a second ability like black magic/summon magic. If Demi would become as strong that would boost time magic very much.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: CT5Holy on January 22, 2011, 04:56:52 PM
Demi - 33%, 2 CT, 15-20 MP, 200 JP, very high accuracy (higher than it is now - it's already 100% hit against 70 Faith targets, so it would only increase hit rate against 40 Faith units)
Demi 2 - 66%, 6 CT, 35 MP, 300 JP, current Lich accuracy (or maybe a bit higher)
Lich - 45%, 6 CT, 35-40 MP, 300 JP, same accuracy (or maybe a bit higher)

Basically, buff to Demi, while trade off between Demi 2 and Lich is damage for AoE.

I think Overwhelm instead of Martial Arts is a good idea. Should lower the damage enough that we don't need to tweak Song/Dance hit% or make them unmimicable.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: The Damned on January 22, 2011, 11:44:07 PM
@Percentage-Based attacks: Eh, I don't know if Demi should be that quick or Demi 2 should be that much, but I think that I like CT5Holy's changes for the most part. These would all still be Dark-based, right?

@Strange Aeons: Given what you said to me last time about Odin being a gimmick, FFMaster, and Barren's exhibition showing what an idiot the computer is about Death even when giving the ability to apply 100% Faith to a target, it seems pretty clear that Death needs to die. It's useless and making it more likely to hit would just make it stupid. 

Similarly, is there a reason that Flare and Holy are affected by Reflect? It seems a tad...unfair given how much better than Black Magic and White Magic Summon Magic already is.

@Martial Arts: I actually don't really have a problem with Martial Arts on Mimes since they otherwise have no options and range, especially with the player not controlling them. Taking away from Martial Arts from Mimes while letting stupid-ass Monks keep it similarly seems kind of backwards, even if, yes, I realize that Monks wouldn't be able to equip Martial Arts if they didn't have it innately. (Boo-fucking-hoo.)

Speaking of Monks, I was being serious when I asked if we could nerf Chakra and Stigma Magic to single-target abilities. It's stupid that strongest class in vanilla is still the strongest class (or tied for the strongest class what with Paladin) in Arena even after the changes, primarily because it's seem the least changes and has only really gotten buffs. (Being able to equip Ribbons and having more HP now.) I mean, why the hell can something that deals so much damage be so good at healing, status removal AND revival? Even Summon Magic has the decency to only be good at two of those.

I just noticed a huge problem with Hawk's Eye, currently, it has a CT of 6, but whenever a unit moves after beginning to charge it, the charge cancels, resulting in the waste of a turn. So we either need to make Hawk's Eye instant cast or flag it to follow target.

:EDIT: scrapped what I said about a skillset swap, as it was pointed out to me that the problem wasn't with the archer's skillset but the flags set for Hawk's Eye, apparently this problem happens with any charge skill that doesn't also have follow target flagged.

Yep. There's a reason that Charge in-game prevents you from moving after you've activated it: Apparently the AI is too stupid to not move otherwise.

My incredibly vague fix for this was to flag Weapon Strike and Normal Attack? and unflag Targeting.

I like the sound of incredibly vague fixes.

i think there is a good reason why Demi is so much weaker than Lich.
Because time mage has the role of a supporter/disabler. If u want an strong atackspell u need to equip a second ability like black magic/summon magic. If Demi would become as strong that would boost time magic very much.

No one's arguing that Demi 1 should be stronger than Lich, just there's no reason to use any other percentage attack OTHER than Lich at present since Lich is both unavoidable and a 2HKO.

An ability that has no reason to be used should just be eliminated.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: CT5Holy on January 25, 2011, 01:34:02 AM
Auto Potion could have a lower JP cost of about 350, I'd say.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Skip Sandwich on January 25, 2011, 08:09:45 PM
There has been a lot of dissatisfaction floating around lately for how strong Monks in general are and Martial Arts in specific is. So I ask, just why can't we just remove Martial Arts entirely? It'd be really easy to just give monks Two Swords innate, or Poles or Rods or something, or to just make the unarmed "weapon" itself stronger, while removing the ridiculous PA scaling that Martial Arts causes.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: CT5Holy on January 25, 2011, 10:12:48 PM
Innate Overwhelm, then? Overwhelm + Attack UP would give monks (max PA setup) 26-28 effective PA (depending on whether or not FS Bag is equipped), as opposed to 33-36 effective PA from Martial Arts + Attack UP. Damage would be reasonably high, as opposed to ridiculously high.
I suggest innate Overwhelm instead of innate Attack UP because the AUP boost is larger -> less tradeoff in damage versus having a more defensive support for survivability. Overwhelm + Two Swords also probably won't be as... overwhelming as AUP + Two Swords/Martial Arts + Two Swords (then again, it's still probably a ton of damage).
Then again, since Overwhelm boost isn't as big, that might force Monks into max damage setups (which isn't a big deal for me, since that's what I always do, but it might be annoying for others, or if something pops up that would make me not use them for pure damage).
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: PX_Timefordeath on January 25, 2011, 11:34:13 PM
Change Chakra and Stigma Magic to linear targeting, so they can only affect the monk and the person in front of him. Would that satisfy you Damned over the brokenness of Monks? Also, I like that Overwhelm idea.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: The Damned on January 26, 2011, 12:57:01 AM
That would be better and worthy of testing despite it still seems stronger than what I want.

However, this shouldn't be about what just I want? As (surprisingly) vocal and bossy as I am towards you guys at times (sorry about that; you'd think I was helping you moderator), I WOULD like to hear other people's opinions on this Monk matter. I say this especially because I admittedly have a bias against them.

Sight Unseeing EDIT: Wow, I completely overlooked Skip Sandwich's and CT5Holy's posts; I'd ask what was wrong with me, but we don't have all day. Anyway, I somewhat agree with the Overwhelm thing, though that would mean that Monks (and Mimes) would probably need even more HP. Attack UP is useless anyway since you can just use PA.

But, yeah, Martial Arts can die forever as far as I care.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Skip Sandwich on January 27, 2011, 06:29:28 PM
Rather then giving monks more HP, we could give the unarmed "weapon" a W-ev rating of 10 or so (not too high since even without Two Swords most monks will technically still have two unarmed "weapons" "equipped".
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Shade on January 27, 2011, 06:32:50 PM
^^ I just like the idea because of two hands combination XD.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Skip Sandwich on January 27, 2011, 09:28:48 PM
Also, i've been thinking, maybe the solution for the Demi/Lich disparity is to turn Lich into something more like Hades/Doomtrain, a mass negative status inflictor, like a ranged Doku no Kyoukai. Of course, this would marginalize oracle spells even more, but those probably need to be overhauled anyway.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: FFMaster on January 27, 2011, 11:14:07 PM
Instead of innate Overwhelm, I can easily make Martial Arts 25% instead. What do people think of that? And I think I might have an idea to get rid of 2 swords fist. As for unarmed gaining W-EV, I've never tampered with it, but assuming it changes in SCUS, there won't be room to edit that. I can add more C-EV to Monk instead as an alternative.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Skip Sandwich on January 27, 2011, 11:20:11 PM
you can give the unarmed "weapon" WP and W-ev in FFTPatcher, it's the blank spot right at the top of the weapon list
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Gaignun on February 04, 2011, 05:12:15 PM
As another minor change, the ninja skillset "ninjitsu" should be written "ninjutsu."
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Skip Sandwich on February 04, 2011, 10:21:22 PM
A point has been raised that perhaps song mimicking is too powerful, at least in regards to Battle Song, ESPECIALLY with Martial Arts still running around. So, do we nerf it's % hit rate as we did Cheer Song? Or do we give it some other unique function, such as a field-wide Berserk?
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Eternal on February 04, 2011, 10:30:41 PM
I still say the best solution would be to use Xif's stat cap ASM. Much more easily balanced that way, IMO.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Skip Sandwich on February 04, 2011, 11:09:34 PM
I was not even aware that we had something like that, how does it work? Does it just cap raw stats (as displayed in the status screen) or does it cap adjusted stats as well?
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: LightningHax on February 04, 2011, 11:54:03 PM
Quote
Stat gain/break cap + Maintenance prevents stat break
WW/XX = Lower Limit which the stat can be reduced.
YY/ZZ = Upper Limit which the stat can be raised.
For example, a lower limit of 1/3 and a upper limit of 1/4 for someone with 18PA, would be:
lower cap: 18PA - (18PA * 1/3) = 12PA
upper cap: 18PA + (18PA * 1/4) = 22PA
This hack takes full consideration of equipment.

It only caps adjusted stats. Also, Maintenance preventing stat breaks could make it worth the JP.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: CT5Holy on March 19, 2011, 06:40:29 PM
What are people's thoughts on increasing the range of most magic by 1? (Katon, Suiton, Raiton are obviously getting their range reduced) Offensive magic isn't too great - 40 Fa makes damage garbage, and at current ranges, it's easy for mages to be midcharged (no midcharge damage bonus is nice, but casters still die/get hurt -> sandbag mode etc). Offensive magic is essentially support - it's anti-sandbag/soften up enemies. It isn't too great at softening up units anyway though cause of 40 Faith. Buffed range would make magic even more of a support than a main source of damage, but mages could possibly squeeze in one more spell before dying.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Squidgy on July 27, 2011, 01:08:44 AM
Rant on class stats:

Chemist: Lots of MA/MP on a job set which doesn't use it, but not more MA than mage jobs. Should probably be 10 speed, to be an alternative to the Thief Itembots, but would require hits to PA/MA.
Mediator: Just really low all around, maybe good for a speedy Geomancy unit? But Geomancy scales multiplicatively, so slight drops in stats have a large impact. Mediator range isn't too amazing, so the health could use a boost, along with every other stat. PA only helps books/daggers, so it can be ignored as a perk if it were to get boosted.

Archer: Little low on MP considering Cover Fire costs 12 (was this 'cause of Conc? Haven't seen this used in ages.) and Hawk's Eye of 8, which I've never seen.
Wizard/Summoner: All the mage stats are so similar because they want the same thing, flat MA, but Oracle/Priest/Sage/Bard get more health, and the MP loss is hard to judge the importance of. Maybe these two could get even more MP base? Also Summoner have Books available, but terrible PA.
Samurai: Really low HP for a melee unit, but armor makes up for it... maybe more HP would help though. Dunno why MP is so high when Draw Out costs nothing.
Ninja: Really low stats, but nice CEv and innate Two Swords... which I find to be overpriced. Maybe boost stats a bit, ditch the innate, and lower the price a lot? MP's too low considering the costs on Ninjitsu skills.

Squire: Too good at everything. High HP, MP, PA, MA, Move, equips nearly everything. MP doesn't need to be so high, especially with robes available. All-around better than Geomancers, the best stat job in vanilla. Probably should knock everything down a little bit.
Paladin: High HP/PA, AND Armor, Shield, Katana/Sword for optimal stat buffing. The only reason I'm not using two Nikos in Save Me is because I don't want to... it'd be the best choice though.
Monk: Highest HP/PA with innate Martial Arts... 9 speed also? All at the cost of a hat, which'll be circumvented by Equip Armor, or a Ribbon/Cachusha.
Thief: Best speed/CEv, good HP. Best Move/Jump. No MP, but plenty of skillsets don't use MP.
Sage: Best mage stats with average PA.

Nerf suggestions for the best? Well, make the tradeoffs more noticeable. Thief/Paladin having terrible MP is a good one, but it's not enough given the great no-mana skillsets (that and Cross Helmets). Thief should only have more speed or CEv or health or mobility... maybe even two of those... compared to Ninjas, Squires ability to equip near everything means they can suffer a bit all around, and be worse than Geomancers overall. Monk and Paladin have the best in the most important areas, HP and PA, for clothed and armored. Make one the best for HP, one the best for PA, and probably ditch the Monk 9 speed. Sage doesn't need high HP due to absorb equips with the all-target magic, and high PA is a nice flavor touch for book use, but being tied for highest MA doesn't really fit with the nice HP and minute PA perk.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Malroth on July 27, 2011, 01:22:13 AM
Drop monks and paladins to 7 speed  and give Samurai either more HP or innate 2 hands
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: CT5Holy on July 27, 2011, 06:50:16 PM
Instead of ((PA+4)/2)*MA, make it (PA/2)*MA instead. Max (or at least close to max) damage Geomancy would be at 120, and the Geomancy user would be fairly squishy, too (~275 HP). Squidgy's Squires as they are would do 100 instead of 140. Damage should be more manageable. Also keep in mind that these numbers are for units fully (or almost fully) optimized for Elemental.
Making Elemental Faith-based would cripple its damage output (well, I suppose a different formula would be used, but I'm still against it) considering how many 40 Faith units there are.

Agree with Innate Two Hands for Samurai (I think I mentioned this at some point) and Two Hands, Two Swords being overpriced (I'd say -150-200 JP). Disagree with 7 speed units. Much too slow. Especially with Haste nerf (7 Speed Hasted = effectively 9 speed).
Also not a fan of Paladins being able to equip Katanas. Not much reason to go with Samurais for melee damage IMO.
Don't see why 10 Speed Chemists would need a hit to PA/MA when Thieves have decent PA. I think 9 or 10 Speed Chemists would be fine.
+1 PA/MA to Geomancers? This would make them the ideal Geomancy user as they would equal current Squire Geomancy damage but also have a secondary. Squire still has many other uses.
Talk Skill range +1 and/or different formula? Current formula demands high MA mage for decent reliability, and locks out low MA units from using it effectively.
Hawk's Eye CT down to 4? It certainly isn't impressive, not to mention Repeating Fist does the unevadable attack thing a lot better.
And that brings me to Abandon - I think it'd be ok to have Abandon double evasion again. Shield and Mantle evasion percentages are low enough that it probably won't be a big deal (well, max P-Ev setup gives ~80% evasion from front and sides, ~50% evasion from behind (and yes, I included everyone's innate Weapon Guard)). Awareness is still great for high C-Ev classes/those who want good evasion for attacks from behind, and there's still a good amount of unevadable attacks. And RNG hate, for what it's worth. XD
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: FFMaster on July 27, 2011, 11:44:05 PM
Just a small correction. Haste is 25% speed bonus, 7/4 = 1 rounded down. So Effective Speed with Haste will be 8... That said, I am not completely against making 7 speed units.

I've already started considering nerfing Elemental a little. I would rather change it to ((PA+1)/2)*MA or ((PA+2)/2)*MA though. Elemental is still strong though, requiring no charging, good range, AoE and statii. As for the class itself, I'm not sure.

Talk Skill, I think can use a small increase in hit%. Mediator itself needs buffs to stats. I'm considering +1 MA and a bit of HP.

Chemists gaining speed is fine.

Hawk's Eye will likely go down to 3 CT. It really is useless.

Abandon... lol I'm not sure at all. It would help mages even more I guess. But from the battles right now, I think mages are pretty damn good. That extra range has helped dramatically.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: formerdeathcorps on July 29, 2011, 06:24:41 AM
Quote
Talk Skill range +1 and/or different formula? Current formula demands high MA mage for decent reliability, and locks out low MA units from using it effectively.

This is partly the problem of using MA * 2 + adjusting down the Y values.

Quote
Instead of ((PA+4)/2)*MA, make it (PA/2)*MA instead. Max (or at least close to max) damage Geomancy would be at 120, and the Geomancy user would be fairly squishy, too (~275 HP). Squidgy's Squires as they are would do 100 instead of 140. Damage should be more manageable. Also keep in mind that these numbers are for units fully (or almost fully) optimized for Elemental.

Seriously, this doesn't seem too bad, especially when a bard or wizard with chiri or Kiku does more.  (Of course, Arena has overall lower damage and movement than 1.3, so geomancy is stronger since it didn't scale with the rest of the game.)  Factored for non-abandon evasion, though, geomancy is hardly better than draw out in damage, but geomancy has better range.  Thus, if you really must nerf it, lower its range to 4.
If anything, why is Squire (or Knight in S5's case) a better user of ELEMENTAL than geomancer?

Quote
Monk: Highest HP/PA with innate Martial Arts... 9 speed also? All at the cost of a hat, which'll be circumvented by Equip Armor, or a Ribbon/Cachusha.
Quote
It's stupid that strongest class in vanilla is still the strongest class (or tied for the strongest class what with Paladin) in Arena even after the changes, primarily because it's seem the least changes and has only really gotten buffs.

This is broken, but not because of the high base HP (which is offset by having no headgear).  It's also not really broken for having decent revivals/healings/anti-status (in each category, this is trumped by priest, except MP cost).  Rather, it's the crazy PA totals + the quadratic damage formulas.  Thus, we should change each monk damage formula to be linear, since only nerfing the Martial Arts' multiplier (or removing innate Martial Arts) doesn't stop A Save or (mimed) Battle Song abuse from scaling quadratically.  Once this is true (rendering PUNCH ART skills average without martial arts even when PA > 13), martial arts staying at 3/2x (or innate) would be fine.  Likewise, 7 base SPD is way too crippling, but 8 would be fine.

Quote
What are people's thoughts on increasing the range of most magic by 1? (Katon, Suiton, Raiton are obviously getting their range reduced) Offensive magic isn't too great - 40 Fa makes damage garbage, and at current ranges, it's easy for mages to be midcharged (no midcharge damage bonus is nice, but casters still die/get hurt -> sandbag mode etc). Offensive magic is essentially support - it's anti-sandbag/soften up enemies. It isn't too great at softening up units anyway though cause of 40 Faith. Buffed range would make magic even more of a support than a main source of damage, but mages could possibly squeeze in one more spell before dying.

If the problem is 40 faith proliferation + other tactics to haste/protect/reraise/quicken self, then why not install a faith floor?  We could even make some (or all) reactions dependent on faith (instead of Fury) to trigger.

Quote
I still say the best solution would be to use Xif's stat cap ASM. Much more easily balanced that way, IMO.

If this means no more Speed Save/quickening/A Save/BAttle Song abuse, I'm all for it.

If you bring back abandon, you should also bring back concentrate (at full 0% evasions across the board) as well.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: CT5Holy on August 07, 2011, 05:21:53 PM
Someone mentioned changing Magicward to adding Shell and Regen instead of Shell and Reflect. Considering that Magicward hasn't been used yet, I think this would be a good change. Reflect likely makes one's own magic ineffective, since AI will usually use Magicward when they've been hurt a bit -> Reflect makes healing with magic impossible.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Squidgy on August 30, 2011, 09:17:32 AM
Bug: Magicward isn't mimicable.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: FFMaster on August 30, 2011, 09:41:04 AM
Thanks for that. Fixed for next version. It is also stopped by Silence, so people know.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Squidgy on August 30, 2011, 10:10:47 AM
Also... New Angel Song costs mana.

So either the AI will run itself under 5 MP and be a total idiot, or Angel Song restores 5 less mana per song. Perhaps just lower the mp restore by 5? (or 10... or 15...)
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: The Damned on August 30, 2011, 04:59:25 PM
(Despite those both being potential issues, I'd rather see how the AI reacts to the new Angel Song before suggesting anything be done with it.)

Speaking of potential issues, having just seen something pointed out to me by Barren, I only now noticed that you increased MP Restore's JP cost from 400 JP to 550 JP. That seems a bit...excessive (despite me being one of the people who suggested it be either that or 500 JP), but more importantly, it isn't noted in the changelog.

Are there any other surprises that await us in this brave new world of 132?

Blind EDIT: Nevermind, I am apparently didn't see it in the 131 changes for some reason as CT5Holy pointed out. Weird. I could have sworn I read through all of those....
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Dol on August 31, 2011, 04:02:27 PM
I didnt want to bring this up earlier since the only time it ever happened before yesterday were in matches against me and it would look like I was just bitter.  After seeing the new matches posted in addition to the earlier ones, it looks to me like Nameless Dance breaks the AI.

From all the matches I've watched with ND, it appears that the AI assumes that all of the statuses that ND can inflict will be applied the next time the dance goes off.  This makes the AI refuse to remove any of the status effects in place as well as influences what their next action will be based on when the next ND goes off.  Not immune to silence?  The AI assumes it will be silenced on the next ND and wont cast any spells.  Your stopped Paladin is going to remain that way regardless of what status recovery you have on your team because the AI assumes he will be restopped in a few CT.

I think that this would need some further testing at the least.  I would happily be proven wrong, but from what I've been seeing, this is an issue that definitely needs to be addressed.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: The Damned on August 31, 2011, 09:39:38 PM
(I'm kinda seeing what Dol is talking about it, but I just thought it was the AI being stupid. I wouldn't really be surprised, though, considering Nameless Song.)

Speaking of recent battles, I'm almost entirely certain now that Auto Potion just isn't working. It's never gone off on anyone as of yet and it's had quite a few chances. If it was just me, then I'd just chalk it up to my usually horrendous luck with...everything, but I'm fairly certain it's just not acting like it should.

It's difficult to tell if this is because of the recent HP boost or if it's always had problems since I don't recall anyone using it (anytime in the recent past).

Somewhat more predictably, it seems like initial Transparent makes the AI act dumb still. I wish there was someway to get around that....

Speaking of initial Transparent, I don't think it was noted that Hidden Knives no longer actually add Speed because if they're supposed to still, they don't. Going to have change that Hirosu team more than I already figured I would because of this.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: FFMaster on August 31, 2011, 10:13:40 PM
Well, the few times the unit with Auto-Potion got attacked, he had some statii like Don't Act on him, which removes the ability to use reactions.

And yes, Hidden Knife isn't adding speed like it should.

EDIT: Auto-Potion isn't going off. No idea why, guess I have to investigate.

EDIT2: Does anyone know what the last version had a working Auto Potion?
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on September 01, 2011, 01:53:04 AM
You apparently also forgot Echo Grass, both on the Memory Card Generator and on the Chemist's Ability List, according to Mando.

Sucks because I just gave it to my Chemists to counter Nameless Dance spam.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Malroth on September 12, 2011, 06:03:55 AM
Question are hawks eye and coverfire affected by fury?
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on September 18, 2011, 09:58:57 PM
Another random thing I noticed helping Malroth with the Memory Card Generator: Mad Science is missing from it, but I've seen it used in matches so I assume it's present in the game?

EDIT:  Apparently it's missing from their skillset too, when I opened up Arena 1.32 to test a few things.  Also, Darkness has absolutely no effect from what I can tell, at least on my units with 0 A-EV.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Dol on September 19, 2011, 11:43:26 PM
I'm pretty sure that Frog (the black magic) is broken.  I put it on a unit in the only way the AI will use it (by giving it a choice of casting Frog or standing still), and it chose to stand still 100% of the time.  It either needs to be fixed a la AutoPotion or just removed completely.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: formerdeathcorps on September 20, 2011, 08:47:31 PM
Can we boost Paladins by 20 HP and/or 1 PA?  They currently are the weakest armored class.  Their skillset is hardly better than jump and they are outclassed in stats by lancer and arguably samurai as well.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Wiz on September 21, 2011, 12:15:14 AM
I second fdc's suggestion. I'd argue 2 PA so they compete with monks a little bit better :P
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on September 21, 2011, 01:01:15 AM
Gotta go with more HP.  Every other armored class is already offensively oriented, herpaberp.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Wiz on September 22, 2011, 12:47:47 AM
That's true, but Knights also have the same amount of PA to an Archer/Lancer whilst 1 point lower in speed, which means they're put out of commission. There's really no reason to pick them of the other two I listed offensively; Their Skillset's not as good as breaking things nor sniping people from afar.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on September 22, 2011, 12:57:04 AM
That's true, but Knights also have the same amount of PA to an Archer/Lancer whilst 1 point lower in speed, which means they're put out of commission. There's really no reason to pick them of the other two I listed offensively; Their Skillset's not as good as breaking things nor sniping people from afar.

...And all of this is why I suggested going with the defensive option.  Their entire skillset isn't offensive in any way.  It's a defensive tank.  Iron Will and Magicward are obvious, Grand Cross is a harder-to-use Night Sword, Transfusion and Nurse heal.  Their only purely-offensive skill is Dia... and it's not even based on a stat they're terrible with (MA) and requires high Faith, something they'll only want if relying on Faith for allied buffs.  Hence, buff their defense, let them be proper tanks.  That's what the class wants to be, and like we both just said, we have no need for offense - Lancer covers offensive PA / armored unit role, Samurai covers both offensive PA / armored and MA / armored unit role, and Archer covers the Vanilla Knight's "Break shit" / debuff unit role.  There's no reason to give them more PA.  There's no demand for a powerful armored unit, and the class doesn't want to be a powerful armored unit.  Everything about Arena's needs and the class' skillset says both a defensive armor class is needed and that the class wants to be a defensive armored class, so just let it be one, give it more HP and let other classes beat it in either PA or Speed, because everything about the Paladin says it should be picked because you want something durable, not powerful.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: formerdeathcorps on September 22, 2011, 06:39:19 AM
The class is whatever you make it to be.  There's no point in arguing what "it wants".

That being said, I don't see why we can't have both.  175 base HP + 11 PA wouldn't cause Paladin to be broken because Paladin's skillset is pathetic.
Furthermore, I don't think we should force specialization too hard on any given class.  It's relatively harder in Arena (compared to 1.3) to make good hybrid units.  I know a lot of metagamers who think that idea is stupid, but if you look at the units who placed well in S5, they were precisely the switch hitters on each team that could grant advantages against multiple team types.  Thus, giving the option for a Paladin capable of offense and defense would actually fill some gaps in Arena as well.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on September 28, 2011, 01:28:41 AM
The Master Guide says Mediator can't use Robes, but when constructing teams in-game I can equip Robes onto them.

Which is correct?
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: FFMaster on September 28, 2011, 07:53:13 AM
They shouldn't be able to equip Robes. I must have added them incrorrectly.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on September 29, 2011, 02:02:30 AM
Okay.

Also, Murasame at the bare minimum still has a CT, looks to be the only one though.  Pretty sure that's just an oversight, though.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: formerdeathcorps on September 30, 2011, 10:40:05 PM
Okay.

Also, Murasame at the bare minimum still has a CT, looks to be the only one though.  Pretty sure that's just an oversight, though.

No, it's Murasame and Koutetsu.  To be honest, Murasame having a CT is balanced (so it's not obviating White Magic), and Koutetsu...I haven't tested it yet, so I wouldn't know.
EDIT: After seeing Wiz's battle, I think Chiri needs a CT timer instead of Koutetsu.  The rest of the draw outs are fine, though.  While we're on the subject, can we please reduce Ultima's CT and MP cost to 5 and 30, respectively?

However, there are a host of serious AI flag glitches.

Accumulate has check CT and faith flagged under AI flags.  Hence, it is never used.
Quickening does not have check CT flagged under AI flags.  Hence, it is rarely used.
Shell2/Haste2/Protect2 does not have target only allies flagged.
Slow2 does not have target only enemies flagged.
Consecrate has check HP flagged, rather than status.
Tzumazuku has check HP flagged, rather than status.
Draw Outs did not lose the target only allies flag.
Cyclops has both HP and Status flagged, even though the inflict status is only 25%.

For those of you who are wondering what I'm talking about, check this thread: http://ffhacktics.com/smf/index.php?topic=4714.msg104619#msg104619

Furthermore, a lot of higher power spells on Black Magic and Summon still have learn on hit flagged.  Although the chances of affecting a battle is small, it still could be an issue.

Other bugs:
1) The purple palette is glitched because units with it occasionally turn black if attacked.  If a purple unit turns black and then crystallizes, the result is a black crystal which freezes the game if grabbed.  A purple crystal is perfectly fine, though.
2) Coral Sword has a second sword strike animation, but this doesn't affect gameplay.
3) Oil does not double fire damage.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on October 03, 2011, 07:26:54 PM
Mimes are vulnerable to Death Sentence but are immune to Dead.  That definitely needs to be fixed one way or the other.

Coral Sword is being weird because it's set to Formula 02 instead of Formula 01, so its procing an empty skill.

Draw Outs/Prot2/Shell2/Haste2/Slow2 look fine to me, outside of the CT inconsistency on Draw Out.  (Though Murasame and Chirijiraden having CT is fine by me, they're pretty damn powerful and having a small CT to check them would be cool.  The others are mostly the ones who really need to be instant.)

E: I see which flag now.  Nevermind.  Third Unknown in the Learn On Hit box is incorrect.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: formerdeathcorps on October 03, 2011, 07:36:15 PM
Mimes also probably shouldn't be vulnerable to frog.  It's stronger than sleep (which you can remove by taking damage) or stop (since stop wears off and doesn't cause you to take extra damage).
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on October 05, 2011, 09:03:34 AM
Your info about Scholar HP/MP in the Master Guide and in this thread is inaccurate.  You copied the Priest HP/MP info for the female Scholar and the info listed for Male Scholar here and in the Master Guide are different.  The one listed in the Master Guide for the male appears to be the correct one, though the female is definitely wrong in both.  Should be 106 HP and I think around 90-91 MP, but don't quote me on that second number.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: formerdeathcorps on October 05, 2011, 09:34:35 AM
Here's some more ideas.  Some will require some very simple ASM that I can do.

1) Dances are fundamentally not equivalent to songs because -Stats is stronger than +Stats on a percent basis.

Battle Song/Magic Song 50%
Cheer Song 33%
Polka Polka/Disillusion 40%
Slow Dance 25%

The above is probably more balanced than the current implementation.

2) Witch Hunt is really powerful to any squad that uses MP because it's currently too difficult to restore MP.  To remedy this, I suggest:
a) Move-MP UP needs to be 10% again.
b) Give Dia to Priest.  In exchange, give Reraise to Paladin.  Dia doesn't even make sense on a base class with 6 MA on females, while Reraise is hard to use on White Magic since healing interferes with its use.  Furthermore, Priest now has a form of offensive magic for those who can't afford Holy.  To make this useful for healing MP, hack formula 54 (MA * Y = MP Restored) to accept the status re-raise at 100% (so coded like if it were formula 2D).  Y should be 2 or 3 here.  This attack should cost 0 MP...think of it more as chakra (with the same range), but with a CT.  Thus also gives someone a good reason to use a paladin secondary (which right now is crap).
c) No one uses carbunkle because +Transparent bugs the AI.  Thus, I suggest we delete it and replace it with large AoE MP healing.  Because a lot of MP would be healed, this would require an MP cost, on top of costing CT.  Again, the same formula should be used (but no status proc).  Y in this case can be 6, though not higher than 8.

3) Damage Split is too weak now.  It should be 33%.

4) Considering Float is just Jump +1 and Earth Null and Move on Lava, it should cost no more than 200 JP.  Similarly, if Teleport = Fly in effect (the AI almost never goes the extra distance), then it should cost exactly 300 JP.  Lastly, Short Charge and MP Restore are overpriced (since 2S > Short Charge and HP Restore is roughly equal to MP Restore now even though both Short Charge and MP Restore cost more JP).  While we're on the subject, 2 Swords is definitely stronger than 2 Hands because of added weapon choice and that both weapons count for W-EV.  Thus, I suggest costs of 400 for Short charge, 450 for MP Restore, and 550 for Two Swords.

5) We overnerfed Regen.  The status itself in vanilla is weaker than protect, not stronger.
a) Cheer Up needs to be 100% Regen
b) Regen should either cost 50 JP and be the same as Protect/Shell in AoE/Y or be 250 JP and be the same as Protect2/Shell2 in AoE/Y/Ally Only.

6) Making Bio darkness elemental actually makes the spell weaker because of absorption.  Thus, I propose making Bio1/Bio2 non-elemental (since only Bio3 adds undead and could reasonably be considered dark).  Bio3 could also be slightly stronger to justify its CT.

7) Ultima is way too costly for what it does.  Right now, it's ranged chiri that costs more JP/MP/CT.  That's not worth the range.  To be worth 400 JP, ultima needs 5 range, the same AoE, 25 MP, and 5 CT.

8) Speaking of Chiri, I'll reiterate the above.  It NEEDS a CT of 3 to be fair.  Koutetsu does not.

9) It's kind of hard to use instruments or cloths because of class restrictions.  It might be interesting to let EQ: Magegear allow Instruments and EQ: Polearms allow Clothes.

10) Dispel Magic does not work on innocent units because the formula is faith dependent, even though the list of removed statii includes innocent.  Similarly, it is illogical to suggest that an oracle casting Innocent has a better chance of hitting a higher faith unit than a lower faith one when Innocent the status means 0 Faith.  Thus, I suggest that
a) Dispel Magic be made into (MA * 2 + 40)%
b) Innocent be made into (MA * 2 + 30)%
c) Faith be made into (MA * 2 + 30)%

Since these now resemble mediator skills, we can possibly delete threaten/solution/preach/praise and simply transfer the above three skills to Mediators so they'll have a better rounded skillset.  Oracle has more than enough going for it already.

11) Time Mage's Stop is too unreliable.  It's completely outclassed by petrify in terms of accuracy, range and staying power of the effect simply in exchange for AoE.  Increasing Y to 160 is probably necessary, as well as reducing CT to 4.  From there, you can raise the MP cost to balance any inequities (setting it equal to slow2/haste2 at 22 would work).

12) Anything that currently cancels charging needs to also affect perform since perform is charging, but better on CT usage (since it can cast multiple times between turns).  Specifically, this affects throw stone and reflect.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on October 07, 2011, 07:42:30 AM
Some thoughts on Magic:

Fire/Ice/Bolt balance is horrendous.  Ice costs more JP, and its only benefit over Bolt is that it costs less MP, which isn't a big deal.  It's useful, but not something so great it should cost more JP.  Ice should be normalized to 50/120/190/260 like Fire and Bolt are.  Fire is a joke.  The MP costs on the ones worth using (Fire3/Fire4) are essentially the same as Bolt, and Fire4 doesn't have the "AoE" benefit the other Fire spells do.  1 AoE 0 Vert?  That's not an AoE, that's fucking Geomancy.  Buff that vertical to at least 2.  The Ys on the lower Fires are also a joke, they're all essentially the same.  My recommended setup is:

Fire: Y=14, MP=6
Fire 2: Y=17, MP=12
Fire 3: Y=21, MP=21
Fire 4: Y=29, MP=30, Vertical 2

Bolt: Y=19, MP=12
Bolt 2: Y=23, MP=18
Bolt 3: Y=27, MP=30
Bolt 4: Y=35, MP=40

Ice: Y=16, MP=3
Ice 2: Y=20, MP=6
Ice 3: Y=24, MP=12
Ice 4: Y=32, MP=20

Across-the-board JP costs of 50/120/180/260 for 1/2/3/4.

Ice stayed the same, Bolt is basically the same with slightly rounded/higher MP costs, and Fire saw a combination of Y buffs and MP reduction to better situate them into tiers compared to Bolt/Ice, and Ice had its JP cost lowered because the higher cost is unnecessary and just further exacerbates the problem of Mages being nearly impossible to make due to JP constraints when compared to physical hitters.  This is especially true because Move-MP UP is essentially required for mages, and it was blasted to 5% MP for no reason and still carries a 500 JP cost + 250 class unlock cost, considering its not in a class most mages use magic from.  If you refuse FDC's suggestion of placing it back at 10% heal, at least reduce the JP cost to 250.  I prefer moving it back to 10% though, the current Move-MP Up is worthless on non-Mages, required on Mages, and eats a quarter of their JP.  It's basically like Short Charge in that regard.  Even when making a simple Wizard that took most of its R/S/M from the Wizard primary class... I only had the JP for two skills and one skill in its secondary class because Move-MP UP is overpriced and underpowered, and because Ice is overpriced for no reason.

Death is also a joke.  Half the hit rate of Petrify, for more MP and double the JP cost for a weaker effect that's blocked by a bunch of anti-Dead gear and one of the most commonly used Clothings and is far easier to recover from?  ...No.  If anything, Death is what deserves to be Y=200, not Petrify.  Really, just make that Y 200 please.  Buff Frog back to at least what it was before in terms of a Y value too, please.

MID-POST EDIT: Wizard's Poison could also go down to, erm, 50 JP.

Speaking of Y values... Oracle is a mess.  Petrify is essentially a guaranteed hit at 70v70 unless they have M-EV even if your MA is 0, and it's easily the most powerful skill in their skillset.  Their weakest skills oddly also have the lowest Y values.  Some recommended Y values:

Blind=255
Spell Absorb=255
Life Drain=190
Zombie=200
Silence Song=170
Blind Rage=160
Petrify=170
Beguile=150
Paralyze=170
Sleep=160

I didn't list Pray Faith / Doubt Faith / Dispel because I very heartily agree with FDC's idea of moving them to Mediator and giving it and Oracle some distinction, but good Ys should be easy enough to create for them if you disagree with that notion.  160/160/210, at least.

I think FDC covered everything else I could say in regards to mages.

EDIT:

Accumulate and Quickening could lose their CTs so the AI will actually use them on off-turns, too.  Quickening's MP cost is enough to prevent over-spamming, and Mime's idiocy has been dealt with so Miming both Quickening and Accumulate shouldn't be anywhere close to a problem.

EDIT 2:

Equip Armor could drop to 400 JP.  It sees some use, but is still prohibitively expensive, especially since the Paladin class' skillset as secondary is absolute shit, making Equip Armor's cost essentially 850 vs Defense UP, Magic Defense UP, and Unyielding which both only have a base cost of 400 and come in skillsets where you can actually use the skillset without being laughed at, meaning you're not always paying the 250 overhead for just your defensive booster.  Drop Equip Armor to 400 please, to make it fit in a bit better with its contemporaries.  Combined with what FDC suggested on the Dia/Reraise thing to make Paladin secondary actually at least begin to be worth a damn, Equip Armor should actually sit at least somewhat balanced against its three defensive counterparts.

EDIT 3:

Speaking of Paladins, Transfusion and Consecration could do to be a bit cheaper JP-wise.  Consecration is barely useful (and its stronger yet also barely useful contemporary of Seal Evil is only 200 JP) and Transfusion is super iffy and pretty much always weaker than Murasame for double the JP cost and a dedication requirement to offset the lost HP.  Lower costs would at least make these skills easier to experiment with, at least in the case of Transfusion.  Right now, it's prohibitively expensive, considering for the same price you can get the generally more effective Grand Cross.  Grand Cross is good enough to earn its high JP cost, Transfusion isn't.

EDIT 4:

Random question - Why does Jump, a situational skillset that the AI has a hard time using correctly, cost 900 JP to get the "full" version of, when a full set of Geomancy only costs 600?  

I know you can technically get four Jumpers by spreading out what you buy, but if you try to buy 600 JP worth of Jump, usually the Horizontal is too shit to be worth it, or you have almost no Vertical.  I'm not saying Level Jump 5 + Vertical Jump 8 need to be 600 JP combined, but some price cuts along the Jump skillset would be really nice considering Geomancy is generally both far better and far cheaper.  Also, ever considered adding a Level Jump 6 over what used to be Level Jump 8?  Easy to do in FFTPatcher, and 6 Horizontal would actually be worth 450-500 JP since its the range most other powerful skills like Flare, etc. utilize.  Level Jump 7 might be too much (though I'd add it too anyway for a test, but I like taking risks like that, you can easily turn Vertical Jump 2 into Level Jump 7 if you wanted), but Level Jump 6 wouldn't be an issue.  Having five different Level Jumps would also make reducing the costs of other Level Jumps easier, since as said before, Level Jump 6 can just take the place of Level Jump 5 at 400-500, and if you pull Vertical Jump 2 for Level Jump 7, you can easily just lower the costs of all the other Vertical Jumps by a tier as well and handle that.  

The other issue I'm for lowering JP costs on Jump / adding at least Level Jump 6 is because you generally also have to bomb 250 JP on Equip Polearm and give up having a useful Support to utilize Jump as a secondary, since Jump primary is almost useless due to Lancer's 9 SPD.  Level Jump 7 is probably unnecessary, but the rest at least should be definitely done, personally.

EDIT 5:

Half of MP should only be 200 JP, and be contrasted by Move-MP UP at 500 JP and 10% MP restoration and MP Restore at 400 JP.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Dol on October 12, 2011, 05:37:08 PM
Looks like 1.337 Quickening has the old Accumulate bug, where if you cast then move it stays on the panel rather than on the unit.   :evil:
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on October 12, 2011, 07:10:22 PM
Looks like 1.337 Quickening has the old Accumulate bug, where if you cast then move it stays on the panel rather than on the unit.   :evil:

/sigh/

Give me 15 minutes.

Go download 1.338, everyone.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Dol on October 19, 2011, 07:19:36 PM
Hmmm, now Quickening does nothing, the way the old Scream worked way back in the day.  Such a pain to have to try and fix  :(
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on October 20, 2011, 12:07:29 AM
Yeah I found the issue.  I trusted Accumulate to be "fixed" instead of actually checking everything myself... it wasn't fixed.

I think I got handled now.  No time to test it right now, but I'm 99% confident this will fix both skills so I'm uploading in a minute.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Gaignun on December 11, 2011, 08:44:23 AM
I have a few quick questions about damage modifiers.

1.  How does Attack UP modify the damage of a dagger?  Is it (4/3)(PA+Sp)/2 or ((4/3)PA+Sp)/2?

2.  Is elemental strengthening considered before or after Attack UP?  This matters for step-wise integer division.

3.  Are MA-based weapons (eg. staves) modified by Attack UP or Magic Attack UP?

4.  Are PA guns, MA guns, or flails modified by Attack UP, Magic Attack UP, or Overwhelm?

The battle mechanics FAQ states that elemental strengthening is considered before Attack UP.  It also states that Attack UP sets a dagger's damage to (4/3)(PA+Sp)/2, which doesn't seem right to me.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on December 11, 2011, 09:05:28 AM
1. It takes your final XA, multiply it by 4, and divide it by 3.  So in a case where PA and SP are 5, it should be (5+5) = 10, 10 / 2 = 5, 5 * 4 = 20, 20 / 3 = 6.  For Attack UP and Magic Attack UP, you perform the multiplication and then the division, not fractional multiplication (there's no difference, really, but that's how the game does it), and the decimal is dropped.  So with 5 base PA and 5 base SPD, your final Dagger XA would be 6.

2. Elemental Boost routine comes before the Attack UP / Magic Attack UP routine.  If you stack both, perform Elemental Boost, then perform Attack UP or Magic Attack UP on the new value.  So if you have 20 MA, Elemental Boost makes this 25 (20*5 = 100, 100/4), then Magic Attack UP boosts up this 25, resulting in a "final MA" of 33 (25*4 = 100, 100/3 = 33).

3. All Weapon Attacks (defined as the Attack Command, except Magic Guns) are always boosted by Attack UP.  Magic Guns are boosted by Magic Attack UP because their Formula merely calls a skill from a list, and that skill with WP substituted as XA is what's cast, taking the "shooting magic" example used to justify them in-game very literally.

4. Magic Guns are covered above.  Flails and non-Magic Guns are boosted by Attack UP, but only one instance of WP is boosted.  If you have 12 WP (Stone Gun), your final damage after Attack UP is 16*12, or 192 before Fury.  This is why Scorpion Tail only lost 1 WP despite its huge DPS, that 1 WP made Attack UP boosting go from 16*12 to 14*11.  Still very, very painful, but not OP.  The self-boosting Flails essentially use 12*10 as their base Formula for this reason, with Attack UP making them 16*10.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Gaignun on December 12, 2011, 01:27:47 AM
That was informative.  Thank you.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: formerdeathcorps on December 14, 2011, 10:08:02 PM
Magicward and Iron Will are listed as 200 JP in the spreadsheet but 100 JP on the Master Guide.
Also, some of the moves under mediator are still listed as MA * 2 rather than MA on the Master Guide.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: FFMaster on December 14, 2011, 11:13:45 PM
I fixed up the mediator problem about an hour ago. Fixed Magicward/Iron Will on the spreadsheet.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Dol on December 18, 2011, 05:29:18 PM
Any idea how to get a Paladin to use Quickening?  At first I thought that if they had Nurse they wouldnt do it, but my latest revision removed Nurse and they still wont use it.  Its pretty bizarre.

Also, Hawk's Eye really sucks.  Adds a charge time and does a very minimal increase in damage.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Gaignun on December 18, 2011, 06:21:25 PM
Another question: How does elemental weakness affect success rate?  I'm looking at Death, Demi, and Demi 2 in particular.  
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: doriantoki on December 18, 2011, 08:51:48 PM
Elemental weakness doesn't affect proc rates, as far as I know.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Generic19 on December 21, 2011, 10:19:15 AM
New to this mod and have a newb question.  Does two hands doubling effective PA change anything that the original two hands doubling effective WP did not?
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Barren on December 21, 2011, 12:06:00 PM
Two Hands I think only effected weapon power, but PA factors in as well like PA*WP. it depends on the weapon of course because the formulas are different sometimes
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Generic19 on December 21, 2011, 12:34:13 PM
Ah, but I mean, isn't it 'effectively' identical for all intents and purposes?
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: TrueLight on December 21, 2011, 03:18:17 PM
Yes, Two Hands is solely used to double the damage of the weapon, nothing more.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Dol on January 11, 2012, 01:53:24 PM
For the elemental Ninja attacks, are they reduced by Shell or Protect?  I'm thinking it should be Shell, but after watching the marathon again, its looking like Shell had no effect on the damage when units used Magicward.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: CT5Holy on January 11, 2012, 06:26:02 PM
The -tons are boosted by Attack UP, so I'm guessing they will be reduced by Protect. Your observations of Shell doing nothing would contribute to this guess.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: formerdeathcorps on April 07, 2012, 08:52:22 PM
Some changes:

1) Make the spell guns always proc the Tier 3 spell so we can lower their WP.  Kagesougi gunner is a little too strong.
2) Remove the MP cost off transfusion.  There's no need to pay in HP and MP.
3) Remove haste from nameless song.  With it, the AI will never stop using nameless song.
4) Change grand cross so it can't target self.  To be honest, I'd rather see it add poison than blind since Kagesougi already does that.  (The fact that you can now use a PA optimized setup should already balance the new grand cross favorably against chirijiraden and spin fist and justify the MP cost.)
5) Give Secret Clothes Null: Blind / Poison / Oil since it's currently underpowered compared to thief hat, much less the +PA/MA gear.
6) Please move Dia to Priest and Reraise to Paladin.  As Raven and I both noted a while back, both skills currently are underused in their current skillsets because they conflict with the skillset since Paladin has no MA to use Dia while Priest has Raise and thus doesn't really need Reraise.
7) Make Hawkeye worthwhile by merging it with Greased Bolt.  An unevadable SP * WP attack that adds oil and poison is worth the charge time and MP; the current implementation is not.
8) Make Spellbreaker deal weapon attack damage + 50% Remove positive statii at MP cost.  This makes it useful compared to weapons like chaos blade or gold staff without obviating dispel magic or the above weapons.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Gaignun on April 10, 2012, 12:56:57 AM
Here are a few more.  Not all of them need to be adopted.  (But some of them do!)

Skills

Equipment

Status Effects

Finally, I'd like to echo FDC's suggestion about the guns.  Have them use tier 3 spells and lower the WP values of the fire, ice, and lightning guns to 13, 12, and 11, respectively.  This is tantamount to having the current guns proc spells a little weaker than tier 2 100% of the time.  Damage will be about 10 points higher on average (pre-Faith modifier) to possibly make the idea of a gun mage feasible.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: formerdeathcorps on April 10, 2012, 01:45:07 AM
Gaignun, the way I coded oil makes your suggestions to oil rather impractical: you'd either have to single out fire weakness induced by oil as 1.5x weakness or change elemental weakness as a whole to 1.5x.

As for decreasing the range on spells like holy / flare, I have to disagree.  There should exist spells as long-ranged as guns, especially since holy and flare aren't AoE.  The huge JP / MP costs are more than worth 6 range.

As for Kiyomori, it currently only works on teams with very defensive / evasive units with long-term strategies (zombie / death sentence / stat reduction).  Increasing the AoE will not increase use because the AI thinks poison is HP damage, and thus, will use poison over attacking.

Personally, I'd reduce masamune's vert to 0 because it really is that OP, but that's just probably me habitually running squads with 8 SPD units.

Also, what exactly do you mean by [1,3] or [2,3] for Koutetsu?  I do understand that the current AoE is kind of strong, but I'm not too sure what you are trying to suggest.

Personally, I'd rather break the consistency and subject ninjitsu to shell and M-EV (as well as reflect).  If you think about all the other broken attacks currently dominating the metagame (grand cross and kagesougi), they are also blocked by protect and P-EV.  Adding ninjitsu to this pile makes it too easy to counter, just run a team like Losers (high evasion) or spam Cherche (which incidentally stops so many other threats).  In short, by making all the strong physical attacks evadable by P-EV and reducible by protect, you guarantee the existence of an obvious hard counter, which can create a rock-paper-scissors metagame.
Part of the reason why shell/reflect/M-EV is underused is because unlike physicals, there exists far more variety in undercutting M-EV (summons), reflect (summons and Tier 4 spells), or shell (status magic).  However, if ninjitsus were also blocked by this (and if we make Draw Out more attractive an offensive option), there would be much more reason to run shell/M-EV.
Just to give an example, I may still run DEFUP or Cherche on 40 Fury units because I fear the power of the physical hitters in the current metagame.  On the other hand, I invariably use setiemson only to cover the weaknesses of an initial: faith or 70 faith unit because I know that most units with above 300 HP and 40 - 55 faith have little to fear from most mages without MATKUP / elemental boost / initial: faith.  Those that are threats usually are damage optimized, meaning they lack either the spell casting speed (Short Charge) or HP necessary to survive my spell interruption attempts.  Draw Out, with the exception of kiku, has less range and is less of a threat.  When optimized, it does less damage than flare.  The same can be said of ultima (which bugs the AI) and geomancy (even less damage, and the status effect isn't really stopped by shell).  To be honest, MATKUP + elemental boost on spell guns are more of a threat than the last two because the archer or chemist using it can have 350+ HP and 9+ SPD.  (Notice that many physical strikers share this trait: just consider the jumpers on Raven's team, the 2H paladins on my team, or the myriad of kagesougi gunners.)

Replacing Confusion with MP Regen would require some AI hacking.  I don't mind doing it though.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Gaignun on April 10, 2012, 02:13:55 AM
Ah, you responded while I was still editing my post post-post. 

Gaignun, the way I coded oil makes your suggestions to oil rather impractical: you'd either have to single out fire weakness induced by oil as 1.5x weakness or change elemental weakness as a whole to 1.5x.

Tough luck, then, huh.  I still think oil should be more easily utilised, though.

Quote
As for decreasing the range on spells like holy / flare, I have to disagree.  There should exist spells as long-ranged as guns, especially since holy and flare aren't AoE.  The huge JP / MP costs are more than worth 6 range.

Holy and Flare are much stronger than guns, though.  I view their 0 AoE as the tradeoff of their power.  To each his/her own.

Quote
As for Kiyomori, it currently only works on teams with very defensive / evasive units with long-term strategies (zombie / death sentence / stat reduction).  Increasing the AoE will not increase use because the AI thinks poison is HP damage, and thus, will use poison over attacking.

There are more reliable ways of punching through stall tactics than Kiyomori.  What do you think of my suggestion to change Kiyomori to something entirely?

Quote
...what exactly do you mean by [1,3] or [2,3] for Koutetsu?  I do understand that the current AoE is kind of strong, but I'm not too sure what you are trying to suggest.

I mean the area of effect extends from two tiles away from the user to three tiles away - kind of like crossbows.  It's a very mild nerf. 

Quote
Personally, I'd rather break the consistency and subject ninjitsu to shell and M-EV (as well as reflect).  If you think about all the other broken attacks currently dominating the metagame (grand cross and kagesougi), they are also blocked by protect and P-EV.  Adding ninjitsu to this pile makes it too easy to counter, just run a team like Losers (high evasion) or spam Cherche (which incidentally stops so many other threats).  In short, by making all the strong physical attacks evadable by P-EV and reducible by protect, you guarantee the existence of an obvious hard counter, which can create a rock-paper-scissors metagame.
Part of the reason why shell/reflect/M-EV is underused is because unlike physicals, there exists far more variety in undercutting M-EV (summons), reflect (summons and Tier 4 spells), or shell (status magic).  However, if ninjitsus were also blocked by this (and if we make Draw Out more attractive an offensive option), there would be much more reason to run shell/M-EV.

Kagesougi and Grand Cross won't be a problem if our change to guns is followed through.  Then people will move onto Shell and M-Ev to protect themselves from the next biggest threat: Draw Out and magic.  What would P-Ev be used for if not for Ninjutsu?  Apart from Kagesougi and Grand Cross, physical offense is a little toothless at the moment.  Physical attacks are weak due in part to the attraction of magic; it is safer to stick to Brave-independent skills and keep Brave low than add the option of attacking with weapons and opening oneself to the opponent's weapons (particularly that painful Stone Gun, which goes through P-Ev anyway) at the same time.  The job traditionally dedicated to fearsome physicals, ninjas, has been declawed.  They are weaker than squires, slower than thieves, and as squishy as scholars.   Punch Art, which should be holding the banner of physical-based offense, is excluded to all but units that sacrifice everything for PA thanks to its unwieldy quadratic formulae.  People don't need Ninjutsu to entice them to stack M-Ev; they already are for Draw Out and status magic - and I hope they would be for black magic if not for the impotence of the skill set.

Quote
Replacing Confusion with MP Regen would require some AI hacking.  I don't mind doing it though.

Sounds great!  Don't kill yourself over it, though.  It's currently a suggestion that's been thrown out there, after all.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: formerdeathcorps on April 10, 2012, 02:34:01 AM
You misread what I meant.  I meant that only stall teams can currently use kiyomori the Samurai spell.
As for changing it?  I can currently see a good niche use for it, as I can for Zombie and Heretic, but I admit such things won't see mass popularity, so I really don't mind it being changed but I won't advocate for it either.

[2,3] is actually really hard to code.  An alternative would be to change it to
Range 1
Area of Effect 2
Vertical 2

Quote
Apart from Kagesougi and Grand Cross, physical offense is a little toothless at the moment.  Physical attacks are weak due in part to the attraction of magic
If anything, Kagesougi and Grand Cross are the main culprits why physical offense is toothless right now.
If a melee attacker attacks a grand cross user, if the attacker doesn't immediately kill the Grand Cross user, the Grand Cross user will retaliate by healing himself while damaging AND blinding the melee attacker.  The blind makes the melee attacker's future attacks very uncertain while the Grand Cross user just erased most of the damage.
Similarly, a melee attacker must close the distance against a Kagesougi user.  If the close range attacker has too low move or was outsped (most Kagesougi archers have 9+ SPD), he'll take an attack strong enough to qualify as a 2HKO and will usually be blinded.  He'll either have to fall back and heal (for less than the damage taken, usually) or try for an uncertain kill shot (assuming he has one).

As for the trade-off between 40 and 70 fury?

70 Fury
+Reacts more
+Does more physical damage
-Takes more physical damage

40 Fury
+Takes less physical damage
-Does less physical damage
-Reacts less

Just from heuristics, as long as you have a reaction you care about and your damage is physical, it makes more sense to run 70 Fury, provided that unit (and by extension, his squad) can support that with the necessary damage output and healing.  More specifically, 40 fury only helps a low (< 300) HP unit survive a 1HKO attack, usually by being left in critical (which usually is just as bad in terms of tempo).  Obviously, for a charging mage, this doesn't matter as much since the charged spell will now go off (whereas with 70 fury, it would not), but for a physical striker, being put in critical leads to cowardly behavior.  Only when HP goes past around 350 (assuming no other defensive mechanisms) does 40 fury start to convert optimized physical 2HKOs into 3HKOs.  It's still a matter of playstyle (and obviously, my offensive bias shows here), but the downside of 70 fury really is overstated.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Gaignun on April 10, 2012, 03:39:03 AM
Quote
You misread what I meant.  I meant that only stall teams can currently use kiyomori the Samurai spell.  Or do you mean the weapon?

No, I meant the skill.  Sorry.  It's still weak at 1 range, though.

You're too hung up on Kagesougi and Grand Cross.  Kagesougi, Grand Cross, and Ninjutsu are the only things representing physical offense right now.  Consider Kagesougi and Grand Cross gone with the guns.  The next best option apart from Ninjutsu is physical attacks.  No physical attack is going to put a caster into critical state from full HP.  A Stone Gun does 151 damage with 70-on-40 Brave and Attack UP.   300 HP units with passive regen will take two bullets and still live.  This damage is manageable.   The only physical attacks more threatening than a Stone Gun that I can think of is Jump and Two Swords (dual wielding weapons).  Like Stone Gun, Jump goes through P-Ev.  Jump also takes time to land, which gives the opposing AI time to respond, turn order permitting.  Two Swords can hurt more and delivers damage instantly, but requires close proximity, is subjected to C-Ev and W-Ev, and has two chances to miss.  Neither Jump nor Two Swords will 1HKO at any rate.  More importantly, both target only one unit.  A single-target attack that doesn't kill is the most manageable form of damage.  Magic, on the other hand, hits multiple targets.  One may die while another is wounded at the same time.  Support needs to both heal and resurrect on the same turn.  High faith, which is indispensable for units with Raise 2, will take heavy damage.  This damage is much less manageable, and it is what I will strive to mitigate with shell.  Sure, status magic goes through shell.  It doesn't go through M-Ev, however, which is what I'll be stacking in lieu of P-Ev, which is of no use against Stone Guns and Jump.  Now I am exposed to Ninjutsu.  I still have a chance of dodging with C-Ev and W-Ev, thank goodness!

The way I see the defensive balance is

P-Ev: physical attacks, Ninjutsu, breaks
Protect: physical attacks, Ninjutsu, Jump

M-Ev: Magic (sans Summon), Draw Out, status effects
Shell: Magic (inc. Summon), Draw Out, Elemental

Moving Ninjutsu to M-Ev/Shell would imbalance the... well, balance.  If Punch Art was fearsome enough to deserve a mention, I would have no problem with Ninjutsu jumping the fence from P-Ev to M-Ev.

Minor point, but:

Quote
... the Grand Cross user will retaliate by healing himself while damaging AND blinding the melee attacker.  The blind makes the melee attacker's future attacks very uncertain while the Grand Cross user just erased most of the damage.

I empathise with this plight.  I think the 100% blind effect of Grand Cross and Kagesougi is unnecessary.  I would remove it or lower its proc. rate if I was calling the shots.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: formerdeathcorps on April 10, 2012, 06:09:25 AM
A couple of other useless moves.

1) Heretic (I can think of exactly one offensive setup that exploits it, but I'm not sure on how well it works.  I'll report back once I test that squad.)
2) Preach (I can also think of a use for this, though creating the proper speed synchronization is tricky.)
3) Solution (For the purposes of spell interruption, bizen boat / mimic daravon / blackmail is uniformly better, as is sinkhole and throw stone.  This has the same use as 1), but is much more of a risk.)
4) Doku no Kyoukai (I bet if I make a tanky enough squad, I can get this to work)
5) Nameless Song / Dance (The AI will probably never stop spamming either because they add haste and slow, respectively.)
6) Bad Luck (This can't even be used on tanking squads.  The range is limited, the AI will spam it because it thinks it's always adding dead, and there's a charge time, which exposes the caster to 100% accuracy attacks.)

Proposed Fixes:
1) None yet as I still have a testable strategy.
2) None yet as I still have a testable strategy.
3) is inferior both as spell interruption and as the strategy usable for Heretic.  Can we please fuse it with insult?  Not only does this distinguish mediator more from oracle, it gives insult more weight with the AI towards spell interruption while ensuring that innocent will also be added.
4) None yet, but I don't have a testable strategy.
5) Simply removing haste and slow from the respective spells won't work because we break parity between Nameless Song and Dance.  Slow is vital to making Nameless Dance moderately useful, while haste ensures Nameless Song is used proactively.  Thus, I think both skills just need to do something different.  I personally prefer Nameless Song being a 33% at mass esuna and Nameless Dance being a 50% at mass dispel magic (since positive statii are on the whole less decisive than charm or petrify).
6) I like the idea, but what if we changed the charge time to "persevere", i.e. performance?  This would mean that every 4 CT clicks, a unit inflicts some subset of {Dead, Darkness, Silence, Oil, Slow, Stop} to a unit that originally started within 1 range of the caster.  It costs 9 MP per use (which we can certainly up to 12 or 15, if needed) and will continue until the caster changes targets or inflicts stop / dead on the target.  On average, it'll take 36 MP to kill someone (and 18 MP to stop or kill someone), but the spell is close range (so much more limited than wizard death or TM Stop), but you get multiple chances (usually 1-2 in between turns), which makes up for the expected CT of 8 for stop OR dead.  Unlike the wizard spell death, actually works against the undead.  If nothing else, it would encourage people to null dead and stop.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: CT5Holy on April 10, 2012, 06:41:17 PM
Nameless Song should be 100% hit. This way you're guaranteed a buff, which is the reason one would use Nameless Song in the first place. The buff is still random, so you won't always get the most helpful buff, and you might get the same buff applied twice in a row.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Fanatic on April 11, 2012, 06:45:32 AM
For the record, I'd like to add a comment about elemental guns and Kagesougi. In addition to the usual defense of elemental absorbtion, Kagesougi Gunner is vulnerable to Projectile Guard [Hence my Unappreciated team]. If Grand Cross was also vulnerable, you wouldn't have to nerf the elemental guns.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: formerdeathcorps on April 11, 2012, 02:47:00 PM
Anything using a gun is blockable by projectile guard including MATKUP spell gunners, Jumping Gunners, Grand Cross gunners, and Kagesougi gunners.  However, if you intend to argue that people should run 2x projectile guard on two units and 2x black costume on other units just to deal with the current metagame, then we clearly have a broken tactic on our hands because you're effectively saying that people have to resort to junk defenses (projectile guard is worthless against any non-gunner team) just to stop your team.
For the record, the maximum damage dealt by Kagesougi gunner is 16 * 5/4 * 4/3 * 17 or 26 * 17 = 442 before Fury, which is actually more the maximum damage capacity of last season.  When you consider that Arena also has lower HP, movement, and SPD totals than S5, while this kind of damage also hits at 6 range and the Kagesougi gunner can attack at a decent magical clip, Kagesougi gunner is currently the most broken damage tactic (especially since the only physical units that do more have to use berserk at melee range, which gives them only one option and is extremely risky).

As for subjecting ninjitsu to P-EV?  As it currently stands and using Gaignun's notation,

P-Ev: physical attacks, breaks
Protect: physical attacks, Ninjutsu, Jump

M-Ev: Magic (sans Summon, Holy, Flare), Draw Out, status effects
Shell: Magic (inc. Summon, Holy, Flare), Draw Out, Elemental
Reflect: Magic (sans Summon, Tier 4), status effects, ninjitsu

This may not seem "balanced" but we can't weigh everything equally.  Breaks are a mostly bad offensive option due to their low hit chances, and are about equal to the attacks at the low end of the physical spectrum.  Physical attacks include kagesougi, grand cross, 2H weapons, 2S flails or elemental boost ninjato, 2 climhazzard knives, berserkers, and punch art (~240 DMG base at optimum).  Thus, although P-EV really only blocks one category, it is by far the most significant category to block.  Considering you can get it higher than 33%, when you calculate the expected damage dealt by your opponent, you can have it block this subset of attacks far more than Protect ever could.
One can reasonably argue protect blocks a more significant subset of physical attacks, but protect only can block 2/3 of the damage so the trade-off with P-EV is reasonable (though I'd still argue protect is slightly stronger since 33%+ P-EV isn't exactly easy to get either).
If you look at M-EV, we have four skewed effects.  At a mechanical level, C and W-EV only work on P-EV.  Second, the metagame is dominated by physical damage, which discourages the need for M-EV.  Thirdly, because most magic doesn't do enough, a unit with 40 faith doesn't need M-EV (unlike a unit with 40 fury); the units usually most afraid of magic are high-faith mages themselves, but they can't evade while charging.  Lastly, and probably most importantly, most players tend to use only the strongest or highest AoE spells, and these are precisely holy, flare, and Summon, the very things M-EV cannot block.  Thus, M-EV's effect is really only significant vs. Draw Out and Status Effects.  Out of the two, statii is actually the more dangerous threat because draw out is an inferior range and damage option compared to magic.  But even then, a mediator has a far higher hit chance against a 40 faith unit than an oracle.
I won't go over shell here, but it's fairly clear that the parity between M-EV and Shell is nowhere near the the parity of P-EV and Protect.  Even if we "fix" the brokenness of grand cross and kagesougi, the physical metagame would still remain fairly dominant so units with 40 fury would still probably want DEFUP/Protect or P-EV and M-EV will still be weaker than P-EV.  Thus, adding ninjitsu to P-EV, although it would make P-EV have parity with protect, would do nothing to solve the M-EV/P-EV parity and would likely only worsen that problem.  This is why I propose subjecting ninjitsu to M-EV.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Fanatic on April 11, 2012, 03:12:51 PM
No, Grand Cross ignore Projectile Guard, at least with Elemental Guns. Test it yourself.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Fanatic on April 11, 2012, 04:36:11 PM
Look, an ability is not junk because it is not useful in 100% of situations. If that is your definition, then most abilities are going to be Junk, including Auto Potion, HP Restore, Holy, Kotetsu, Charm, and Zombie. You would not say all those abilities are useless just because they don’t always work.

No, an ability is rated on 1) How often it is used 2) the strength of its use 3) The positive cost of using it and 4) the negative cost of using it.

Let’s pretend Projectile Guard actually DID block Grand Cross. Projectile Guard is useful against any physical ranged unit, barring Monks and Lancers. And I’d say running into physical ranged units is about as common as running into Draw Out. But I’ll give it a “B” under category 1.

It gets an A under category 2. It shuts down ranged attacks. Not only that, but the AI will still make the attempt, creating wasted actions. The very nature of Ranged Attacks means that multiple units will be in range, and since we know how AI targeting priorities work, it is not too hard to create units that will be frequently shot at. When it comes into play, in comes in HARD.

It gets an A under category 3. All you need is Brave and Faith. You can slap it on ANY unit, it is independent of stats. Further, it even activates when a unit otherwise would not get evasion. Abandon and Awareness require specific equipment builds – Projectile Guard does not.

It gets a B under category 4, but only because I’m being overly critical. To be honest, no reaction is so game breaking that using Projectile Guard instead of it handicaps you. Auto Potion works if you stack Protect and Shell, and/or Defense up, but by no means is it game breaking. HP restore comes up less than you expect, mainly because the very build that makes it useful discourages enemies from attacking! Abandon and Awareness require equipment, and though they tend to be more useful, but there are plenty of attacks that ignore evasion. MA Save / PA Save seldom triggers often enough or for long enough time to affect the outcomes of matches. Counter assumes the attacker is actually in range. Same with Meatbone Slash. Dragon Spirit sounds good, until you realize that the revived unit is still going to run or heal itself (often not enough to escape imminent death). And counter magic takes MP, and since most magic attacks are elemental, you might end up HEALING the attacking unit!

You claim it is Junk because you don’t use it. I could understand that if you knew that Grand Cross bypassed it (And I would downgrade category 1 to a D), but you thought you could get the same evasion even against that. If I don't use projectile guard, it is because either A) I know it doesn't work against 1/3 of the Gun threat (Grand Cross) or B) I don't have the job points to spare.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Fanatic on April 11, 2012, 04:58:46 PM
Actually, I understand what you're saying.

You're right. Absolutely. We need more MA Evade.

Have you considered greatly boosting the MA Evade of Shields and Mantles? Elemental resists are another reason people might skimp on the Evade...
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Dynablade on April 11, 2012, 06:32:50 PM
Just a question about Damage Split, is anything being done to it? I know I'm a scrub, but 33% feels too low. Maybe it's supposed to be an anti-sandbagging tool, unit with low health from across the screen hits with lore, you DS, they die? I dunno, but at 33% it felt more prudent to go after pure defense in Defense UP and somewhat risky high evade Abandon than it did to use Damage Split and die because you weren't able to reflect enough damage back.

Again, I'm a scrub, but I love Damage Split. Tanks are easy to make and work well with this crazy ass AI running shit.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: formerdeathcorps on April 11, 2012, 06:37:15 PM
Fanatic, I think you missed the point of my argument in both of your posts.

Arrow Guard ONLY blocks gunners and crossbowmen and the assorted weapon attacks coming from them.  It does NOTHING else.  When you compare this to HP Restore or Auto Potion (which pretty much works against everything EXCEPT status), it's clear arrow guard is a much more restrictive ability.  Thus, if I run into a team that doesn't use a gunner (which is far more common than a team that ONLY uses status), I just wasted my JP.  However, against gunner squads, I'll probably defeat them.  HOwever, as we've seen in the current metagame, that gunner squad is likely to defeat the generalized damage squad.  Thus, we create a rock-paper-scissors cycle:
Gunner Squad > Other DMG squad
Anti-Gunner Squad > Gunner Squad
Other DMG Squad > Anti-Gunner Squad
The fact that gunners can only be reliably countered by explicit anti-gunner tactics that put your team at a disadvantage against every other damage squad implies guns are broken.  Anyone who remembers Y U SO DERP and I AM SO DERP can see the parallels.

As for M-EV, the problem isn't how much you have; the problem is that the stuff it blocks is not as dangerous as the stuff blocked by P-EV.  Giving you more M-EV does not fix this problem.

Dynablade, 50% Damage Split as in vanilla and 1.3 is broken though.  EArlier version of Arena ran on 25% and that was too low.  I think 33% is just right.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Wiz on April 12, 2012, 02:55:39 AM
Why is everyone discussing about making changes to the patch? It's not like as if these are going to be implemented and used for the tournament. Quite a few teams have already been submitted and nerfing "X, Y, and Z" will only ruin the build for some of those teams and they'll have to redo them all over again.

If people are just throwing random ideas out for post-tourney, then I've got no quarrels with that.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: dinosaur on April 12, 2012, 08:37:49 AM
This has been said and I agree with it so much I made a meme:

Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Gaignun on April 12, 2012, 07:17:17 PM
If people are just throwing random ideas out for post-tourney, then I've got no quarrels with that.

This.  I'm scooping the complaints others will make once the tournament is over.

This has been said and I agree with it so much I made a meme:


Masamune's vertical is so damn high I can't eat breakfast, lunch, and dinner.  Listen!  Someone's stomach churl chowl-stomach just growled!
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: formerdeathcorps on April 13, 2012, 02:48:30 AM
I just noticed that since most of the sources of protect come from the cherche, that squire recoil damage skill probably should have null: reraise and regen instead.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Fanatic on April 13, 2012, 03:07:16 PM
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Dol on April 13, 2012, 03:55:59 PM

Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: formerdeathcorps on April 15, 2012, 09:44:45 PM
People have been saying Wizard has no unique role among the mage classes.  Thus, I suggest that wizard gain elemental neutralization (i.e. weak/halve: all elements) so wizard would have a unique role as the carrier of things like Light Robe or Undead Ring.  If that isn't enough, we can also consider giving wizard null: silence and berserk.  To make wizard spells more attractive, I think we should change the Tier 1 spells so that:

1) Fire1 +33% Oil
Bolt1 +33% Don't Move
Ice1 +33% Slow
2) Make the Tier2 spells take UnFury as their multiplier, but M-EV and shell as the means to block damage.

I think Tsumakuzu should be (FoeSPD + FoeMOV) * 12 at 100% Remove Haste
I'm only saying this because 100% Remove Haste doesn't adequately punish teams that run SPD domination.  Plus, if you're tripping someone, it would stand to reason that their mobility is used against them.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: SoySauceMaster on April 15, 2012, 11:00:02 PM
So, the solution to balancing classes is to just add procs to existing abilities? Mages simply lack the tools. Why do Scholars and Summoners get more elemental types? Why do Ninjas and Samurai get elemental abilities? It's the same problem with ailments; the abilities need to be more exclusive to the classes they're intended for. It's why Mediators are broken; no charge-time *OR* MP cost.

What I'm seeing, right now, is that a pure melee team can't even compete, because of all the damn procs and AoE.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: formerdeathcorps on April 15, 2012, 11:20:36 PM
Quote
It's the same problem with ailments; the abilities need to be more exclusive to the classes they're intended for.

Can you give an example of what you would like to see?
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: SoySauceMaster on April 17, 2012, 09:57:19 PM
Giving every class a passive ability, that only benefits the abilities of the class, is a start. That would discourage exploitation of stacking effects of abilities from other classes. But, for that to happen, some nerfing needs to be done; especially to Mediators, Summoners, and Ninjas.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: formerdeathcorps on April 17, 2012, 11:35:18 PM
To be honest, I don't like your suggestion because it takes away the ability to mix and match skillsets and abilities to make a very powerful overall unit.  FFT team-making is more fun (and the metagame less predictable) when hybrid job classes are stronger than units specifically built for one purpose.  If you look back to the previous AI tournaments (S3/4/5), the winners weren't teams that maximized defense or offense, but teams whose main offensive units were hybrids between offense/status and healing.  In other words, to answer your question, a pure melee team, just like a pure defense/status team, or a pure magic team, SHOULD NOT be the best team of the metagame.
Thus, there should exist abilities that disproportionately punish teams that try to put all their eggs in one basket.  These abilities should be "relatively comfortable" to use in the sense that one isn't forced into an equally extreme setup (otherwise known as the rock-paper-scissors effect).

Right now, the only current means of turning high SPD into a weakness is to use 8/9 SPD units with Jump, but this runs into a host of problems.  Not only are such teams locked at such low SPD, they usually have to devote much of the entire squad to evasion tanking to compensate for the opponent's double attacks.  Also, if the SPD squad can boost their speed, it still may be for naught.  This is why I proposed that Ninja skill; it would allow squads that aren't specially built for jump to deliver far more exacting counterattacks to fast units (who usually are pretty squishy).
Similarly, there's no means to punish 40 fury (which isn't really a downside if your team doesn't use melee to begin with).  This is why I proposed those changes to Tier 2 Wizard spells; one or two 40/70 wizards with it could feasibly take down an entire squad with 40 fury.

You are right, of course, for saying that this itself does not boost the Wizard class, which is overshadowed by Summoner (more MP/versatile), scholar (better equips/MA), oracle (more HP), or bard (better MA/HP).  This is why I propose wizard gain Null: Silence/Berserk; this way, Wizards can use their equipment advantage to even out their slight MA deficiency.

My boosts to the Tier 1 spells was mostly so Wizard would be on par with Scholar's Bio1, but I can understand leaving them unchanged as well.  Those were made simply to encourage the use of status effects little used in the metagame.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Fantactic1316 on April 19, 2012, 09:52:50 PM
I know none of this will be considered for the Tourney, but I've got a few suggestions anyway.

First, why does Mediator's "Blackmail" use the "Invitation" graphic? It even plays the Invite fanfare upon success. It's purely cosmetic though; functionality is just fine.

Second, should "Faith Up" really be triggering when a unit is healed?

Third, the potion system has become a really convoluted version of its original self. Potion getting cut... actually that makes perfect sense in the context of Arena. I'd say Hi-Potion is the most controversial change. In a lot of instances, it is actually more powerful than X-Potion now. And Auto Potion seems just a little too high. 80 healing is a bit much for a reaction. Consider the average Damage Split nowadays in comparison. This is just my opinion and you're all welcome to dismiss it, but I think Hi-Potion should do a flat 85 for 150jp, leave X-Potion as it is now for 200jp, and put Auto Potion at 60 healing...maybe 70...or possibly percentage based, but something in the range of 20-30%.

Fifth, Magic Guns seem a bit too powerful. Not only do you get instant magic for no MP (at a bit of a gamble, concerning which Tier), but you also get 100% accuracy. Why waste JP teaching your Wizard spells that the enemies can block with an Aegis Shield when you could just put that JP into Equip Ranged? I think the magic guns should be subject to magic evasion.

And sixth, mages are a bit overpowered right now. I think they've been given one or two buffs too many.

Tier 1/2 spells with the AoE of an average Draw Out? Seems excessive. Maybe save that for Tier 3 only. And speaking of excessive, the extended range. Maybe on the lower spells, but on Flare/Holy, it's too much. There's little to no penalty on the powerful spells and even less penalty on loading a mage up with MA gear. There's nothing wrong with loading a mage with MA gear, but there should be some kind of trade-off. 6 range Flare/Holy makes MA gear the easy choice. If they want that kind of reach, they should have to swap the Magic Gauntlet for Germinas Boots. Or make a choice between spending their JP on Magic Attack Up or spending it on Move +1. Currently, who needs move when you can reach the enemy from halfway across most maps anyway?

And if they want to deal that kind of lethal damage, they should at least have to stand kind of close-ish to the unit they're about to OHKO. With MA gear, even the average low faith unit doesn't have much hope. I'm fine with the idea of making a mage that powerful, but I should be giving something up in exchange for that power. I don't feel the crunch of a low move stat if I can reach everything I want to hit anyway. I don't feel the pain of low HP if nobody ever gets in melee range. Nerfing the magic range seems like the natural choice to me, but perhaps JP, CT, or MP cost could be effective alternatives.

Priests and Wizards as they are now are just begging to be loaded with MA gear and nothing else. The choice should be at least vaguely difficult. As is, a mage with full MA gear and semi-competent allies can take on almost any team. Twin Samurai even have trouble with it, only winning about a third of the time. And who wants to watch a tournament where a bunch of twin Samurai teams fight a bunch of MA-loaded mage teams?

Don't get me wrong, the MA mage teams I've been using for tests are extremely well-designed (I didn't design them). The MA-loaded mages are just one piece of a team and (probably) couldn't win on their own. It's just that those teams would have a significantly slimmer chance for victory if they weren't packing a 6-range, 100% accuracy, nuclear bomb. Lowering the range would at least come slightly closer to making an even playing field. At minimum, I really think that Flare and Holy should be nerfed to 5. Personally, I'd also recommend that Tier 1/2 spells go back to their old AoE, leaving the larger AoE for Tier 3 (that kind of power should cost a little JP).

Again this is all just my opinion. And I may have some bias owing to the fact my own team is getting rolled over by some of the things I've mentioned. I'd be interested to hear other viewpoints.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: formerdeathcorps on April 20, 2012, 12:43:12 AM
Fantactic, which teams did you test against?  Your descriptions of the metagame seem 180 degrees apart from the experiences of virtually every other person here.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Gaignun on April 20, 2012, 01:34:51 AM
People have been saying Wizard has no unique role among the mage classes.

I think their skill set needs to be pruned.  They currently have twelve spells which are all halved by a single piece of equipment (venetian shield or white robe).  Reduce the four tiers into two and introduce three new elements for a total of six two-tier sets.  If we also add corresponding elemental absorption to the underused accessories I mentioned before (defense ring, defense armlet, et cetera), then these accessories can be used together with Black Magic in a variety of absorption strategies.  If we add status effects to the spells, too, then I suggest each accessory both absorbs the element and nullifies the status of the corresponding spell.

Quote from: formerdeathcorps
Right now, the only current means of turning high SPD into a weakness is to use 8/9 SPD units with Jump, but this runs into a host of problems.  Not only are such teams locked at such low SPD, they usually have to devote much of the entire squad to evasion tanking to compensate for the opponent's double attacks.  Also, if the SPD squad can boost their speed, it still may be for naught.  This is why I proposed that Ninja skill; it would allow squads that aren't specially built for jump to deliver far more exacting counterattacks to fast units (who usually are pretty squishy).

Why must SPD be turned into a weakness?  I would think that trading solid equipment for speed is enough of a sacrifice.   They're squishy indeed.

Quote from: Fantactic1316
Priests and Wizards as they are now are just begging to be loaded with MA gear and nothing else.

Then they're begging for a taste of their own medicine.  MA-stacked units have no elemental absorption to resist wizards or evasion to resist time mages and oracles.  At 8 SPD, they're also slow.  You need to build a team around keeping these units in working condition, which I think is all fine and well, personally.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Fantactic1316 on April 20, 2012, 07:26:29 AM
Then they're begging for a taste of their own medicine.  MA-stacked units have no elemental absorption to resist wizards or evasion to resist time mages and oracles.  At 8 SPD, they're also slow.  You need to build a team around keeping these units in working condition, which I think is all fine and well, personally.

Eh. Point acknowledged. They are begging for a taste of their own medicine. Don't bring a Knight to a mage fight, I suppose. There's a case to be made in saying that the mage team is well-designed, but I still feel like Holy and Flare are just one panel too powerful. I still think a team is a bit too strong if the only thing that can overcome it is itself.

Fantactic, which teams did you test against?  Your descriptions of the metagame seem 180 degrees apart from the experiences of virtually every other person here.

180 degrees? Virtually everyone? Well damn, maybe I'm just shitty at team building then. Seriously though? No one else has ever watched their long-thought-out team get repeatedly killed by a mage with full MA gear?

I put my teams (a few variations on my Tourney team, as well as some completely different builds) up against a few teams from the first page of the submission thread.

One was CT5Holy's "Holy Stones" team. That team is incredibly well-designed and I respect the ownage there. Though I do still feel it's slightly cheap that I got owned from 6 panels away. If it had been 5, it would have at least seemed like my team had put up a fight. The 6 panel range made them look a lot more pathetic than they are, but I don't think my current build could beat that Holy Stones, even if it were nerfed to 1 range. The skills of the four units all interlock in a beautiful sort of synergy that is very difficult to beat. Holy Stones is a tactical masterpiece.

Another team was Team Rellia, which also features an MA heavy mage. The other units are formidable in their own right, but they don't support each other quite as effectively as Holy Stones does. I'm convinced that my team could (emphasis: could) win if they'd just get close enough to take out that Wizard.

With both teams, my units consistently get OHKO'd from six panels away. And only two of my units are mid-to-high faith squishies. All four of them are capable of at least some range. One of them has only 50 Faith, armor, and bad compat with Team Rellia's mage, but he still got OHKO'd. The fact that he got OHKO'd says "well-designed mage". The fact that it happened from so far away is what gets under my skin. If that mage wants to OHKO my units, it should at least have to step into the average Longbow/Earth Slash/Kikuichimoji/Elemental range.

Is a 5 range, 100% accuracy, high damage attack not good enough? Does it really have to be 6? It seems unbalanced to me. But then again, maybe I'm just not doing a good enough job on my end of things. I could probably design a team specifically built to beat Team Rellia and Holy Stones, but then they'd be weak in other areas. I suppose that's the dilemma with most team building though.

Bottom Line: Holy and Flare out-range most other ranged attacks, have the accuracy of guns, and (with the right gear) deal greater damage than any other ranged attack, OHKO'ing nearly anything that isn't a full-on tank. The MP cost is a slight deterrent, but ultimately a pittance compared to a mage's total MP. It does nothing to prevent spamming. The JP cost is relatively high, but leaves a Priest with Holy enough remaining JP to add Cure 2, Raise, Magic Attack Up, Move-MP Up, and still have 470 left over. And because of its range, MA gear becomes the easy choice. You stand far enough away to avoid most hits (and even several ranged attacks) so you don't need high HP, and you can attack from far enough away that there's no need to boost your move stat. Show me another class that can OHKO a bad compat, armored unit from six panels away with 100% accuracy.

All told though, I don't think mages are *radically* overpowered. The mage class does trade away quite a lot in order to obtain their power. I just think that their most lethal attack has one panel too many to still consider them to be a fair and balanced opponent.

(Addendum: After tweaking a weak link in my team, they were able to beat Team Rellia two times out of three. They even beat my devilishly cheap, nearly invincible twin Samurai team on their fourth attempt. However, they still failed against Holy Stones seven times in a row. They would probably still fail even if Holy only had 5 range...which is my point. Mages don't *need* 6 range to beat the ever-loving shit out of you, they can do it in 5. The fact that they can do it in 5, but have 6, is what makes me say they're slightly overpowered.)
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: formerdeathcorps on April 21, 2012, 06:57:11 AM
If charging units bother you that much, you could run a mage with 8 SPD, short charge + don't act, silence song / sinkhole (without short charge) as the last unit of your team.  Similarly, you can run a fast unit with bizen boat, refute, or throw stone.
An HP setup gunner with MATKUP + elemental absorb + 70 faith is also a good idea.

Also, what's the average speed of your team?  Do you have haste2/masamune?  Are you always testing on the same map?  It seems to me that the squads you tested against are consistently getting first strike and flattening your units.  Instead of making your units tougher, why not make them faster or offer some bait?  It sounds counterintuitive, but if your squad is really slow, having any resurrection other than Raise2 may actually set your squad behind in constantly healing wounded units.

Quote
The JP cost is relatively high, but leaves a Priest with Holy enough remaining JP to add Cure 2, Raise, Magic Attack Up, Move-MP Up, and still have 470 left over
Isn't the leftover 750 JP?
Unlocked Jobs: 750 JP
R/S/M: 900 JP
Skills: 600 JP
Also, most people would buy Cure3, Raise2, and Esuna.  That's 430 more JP to spend, leaving you with 320 JP.  320 JP is good only for Black Magic or Yin Yang Magic.  Considering this unit is a midcharge risk and a pure MA/MP/strengthen setup has crap (~230) HP running 40/70 stats with no reaction, you can easily 2HKO (maybe even 1HKO) this unit with melee ranged attackers.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Fantactic1316 on April 21, 2012, 10:38:27 PM
Also, what's the average speed of your team?  Do you have haste2/masamune?  Are you always testing on the same map?  It seems to me that the squads you tested against are consistently getting first strike and flattening your units.  Instead of making your units tougher, why not make them faster or offer some bait?  It sounds counterintuitive, but if your squad is really slow, having any resurrection other than Raise2 may actually set your squad behind in constantly healing wounded units.
Isn't the leftover 750 JP?
Unlocked Jobs: 750 JP
R/S/M: 900 JP
Skills: 600 JP
Also, most people would buy Cure3, Raise2, and Esuna.  That's 430 more JP to spend, leaving you with 320 JP.  320 JP is good only for Black Magic or Yin Yang Magic.  Considering this unit is a midcharge risk and a pure MA/MP/strengthen setup has crap (~230) HP running 40/70 stats with no reaction, you can easily 2HKO (maybe even 1HKO) this unit with melee ranged attackers.

My team does suffer a bit of a speed disadvantage (two 9's, an 8, and a 10). For range, the latest build I've been testing has got Wave Fist, Earth Slash, Geomancy, a Crossbow, and a Magic Gun. I'm not denying that Holy Stones has me completely outclassed - they do. I just think that 6 range Holy is unnecessary to an effective mage. A well-designed mage doesn't need that extra power, but they still have it.

My squad does have Short Charge Raise 2 on one unit, but there's no hope of accomplishing much with it. If my Raise 2 unit gets close enough to res, then Holy (with 3 move and 6 range, an effective 9) will more than likely find my 55 Faith, neutral compat, 309hp, res unit and OHKO her before the next turn...assuming she doesn't get mid-charged by one of the other units or Petrified by the effective 100 Faith Oracle. And Raise 2 hardly makes a difference against an OHKO unit like Holy the Priest. My units can be raised with ~300+ or they can be PD'd with 11, they're still dying in the next round. And god forbid my tank gets smacked with that damn 100% Add Faith Katana. (100%? Really? On something like a staff I'd understand, but something that's an effective weapon by itself, gets an additional buff of a 100% chance to add status? Really?) Anywho, I've gone off on a tangent now.

As for the JP totals, I forgot to scroll down on the spreadsheet I was looking at. Holy the Priest does have Esuna as well.

She's an effective sand bag, *and* an effective nuclear bomb, *and* she has the accuracy of concentrate, *and* she has almost 300 hp, *and* she has the range of a gun. Among *all* of that power, I think that she should lose *one* panel of her range.

All told, she has 290 hp, 14 ma (plus MAtkUp), and good compat with only one of my four units. (She could have even more MA, but for some incalculable reason, she's got a staff with 50% cast Dia instead of one with MA on it. She never uses the staff though.) I don't really have a problem with the fact that she can OHKO most of my team. I just think the range is too much, when added to that kind of power.

I have zero issue with the mage class's power. These magic units are well-designed, and have to trade certain strategic advantages to get that power. There are ways to defend against magic and my team is obviously weak against it. That's all good design on the opposing team's end, meeting with flawed design on my end. My only issue is with the range. Personally, I think that if an offensive mage can't fight effectively with five range, then that mage just isn't well-designed. I feel certain that both of the teams I tested against would still be super effective with only 5 range.

Things that have the same range as Holy/Flare:

1) Guns
2) ONE of the Longbows
3) Lancer's Level Jump 6 skill

And that's it.

Now then, on to today's list of complaints.

1) Dances and Talk Skills should trigger reactions if they connect. (Or maybe they do and I'm just extremely unlucky with the RNG. If they don't they should.)

If Dancers are going to drop stats so heavily, I should at least have the *chance* (assuming that I have an appropriate reaction equipped and the RNG favors me, based on my Faith and Fury) to fight back. To gain 20CT when I lose a point of Speed. To gain 5 Fury when I lose a point of PA. To gain 5 Faith when I lose a point of MA. If an Iron Boots Dancer (or two) wants to drop my team to 1 speed, I should at least be able to deal heavy damage from PA/MA save, on the off-chance that I  even get a turn. And if a Mediator wants to Death Sentence me at the flip of a coin, I should at least get a Counter Flood out of it. Or a Regenerator. Or a point of PA/MA so I that I can *try* (against the Iron Boots and Unyielding) to fuck them up on those two turns they spend ignoring me.

... Yes, I tried to test my teams against Y U SO DERP.

The current build of my Tourney team never had a chance and I respect the ownage. My Samurai team (after some tweaks to their support units...see also: Finger Guard) won one of three matches. The other two matches went on for about two hours each. Yep. Two hours of watching twin Samurai get slowly rolled over by twin Dancers...and failing to react as their Speed, PA, MA, and MP were reduced into nothingness.

2) This might actually fall into the "bug" category. With Magic Guns, I was noticing that the targeting window was showing a number like 42, but then the actual damage (from a Tier 1 spell, mind you) was somewhere around 60. Thinking on it, the units being targeted did have Unyielding for support. I'm assuming the damage was supposed to be 42 with Unyielding, but that the Magic Guns somehow ignored it...which they're probably not supposed to do. Regardless, if it's more than just a graphical glitch, if the AI has inaccurate information about how much damage it will do, it might act differently and that's a definite issue.

Similarly, are items supposed to bypass Unyielding? Should Hi-Potion still be doing 40% of Max HP healing on a unit that's supposed to take 20% less healing? Just wondering if that's intentional or not.

3) I stand by my previous assertion that 40% is too high for Hi-Potion. 35% might be more reasonable. And I still think 80 healing is too much for a reaction (Auto Potion). Perhaps it could be 40% of the damage received (slightly better than Damage Split for healing, but at the cost of not dealing damage to the enemy unit).

4) I hate to bite the hand that feeds me, but Stigma Magic and Chakra. They get range AND AoE? Even though they have zero vert, this seems a bit much. Either range or AoE would be nice, but both just makes Punch Art units a little too healing-centered. Personally, I liked the original versions of these two skills. No range, but AoE at 0 vert.

These are all just my opinions though. It's obvious that a lot of time and effort goes into  deciding what to buff, what to nerf, and what to remove. If I'm the only one who thinks these things, then there's a good chance that it's all errant nonsense.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: CT5Holy on April 21, 2012, 11:13:08 PM
We tried 35% Hi-Potion before. Wasn't doing enough. Currently, both X-Potion and Hi-Potion are used frequently, and X-Potion costs a bit less JP to compensate for Hi-Potion being a bit better.

Chakra and Stigma Magic went through a similar evolution. It went from original, 1 AoE centered around self, to 2 range single target, to its current form. Single target made it pretty meh, but the range was nice, so we gave it the current AoE. And it's fine.

And magic pre-range buff? Far from impressive. Magic is a threat, and is actually being used now. I think that's good.

Auto Potion and Absorb MP trigger against Dances (Wiznaibus for AP). Faith Up also triggers. The Stat Save reactions trigger from HP Damage. It'd be pretty nuts if it triggered off everything. Also, the stat reduction dances have had their success rate lowered from 50% to 40%. I hardly consider them dropping stats "heavily." You basically need an incredibly defensive setup like Raven has to make it work.

Also, keep in mind that it's basically impossible to stop every single setup out there.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Fantactic1316 on April 22, 2012, 06:18:45 AM
We tried 35% Hi-Potion before. Wasn't doing enough. Currently, both X-Potion and Hi-Potion are used frequently, and X-Potion costs a bit less JP to compensate for Hi-Potion being a bit better.

Chakra and Stigma Magic went through a similar evolution. It went from original, 1 AoE centered around self, to 2 range single target, to its current form. Single target made it pretty meh, but the range was nice, so we gave it the current AoE. And it's fine.

And magic pre-range buff? Far from impressive. Magic is a threat, and is actually being used now. I think that's good.

Auto Potion and Absorb MP trigger against Dances (Wiznaibus for AP). Faith Up also triggers. The Stat Save reactions trigger from HP Damage. It'd be pretty nuts if it triggered off everything. Also, the stat reduction dances have had their success rate lowered from 50% to 40%. I hardly consider them dropping stats "heavily." You basically need an incredibly defensive setup like Raven has to make it work.

Also, keep in mind that it's basically impossible to stop every single setup out there.

If 35% Hi-Potion wasn't doing enough, couldn't people have just put their JP toward X-Potion? Maybe I'm just being too picky about it because it's beating me, but nerfing X-Potion while buffing Hi-Potion just seems counterproductive. They do both have their strengths and weaknesses in their current incarnation though, which is the beauty of FFT, so I guess I don't have too much room to complain.

Chakra and Stigma Magic...yeah that's probably just my personal preference, then.

Are there videos of this "far from impressive" magic? I haven't exactly been frequenting Hacktics and keeping up with all the version changes. I find it hard to imagine a well-built mage team causing anything short of utter destruction though, even with 5-range Holy. I could be wrong though. I'm sure most of the people on this forum are probably more familiar with the ins-and-outs of the Arena patch than I am. I've been watching the Tournament videos on Youtube for years now, but only recently have I been actually playing around with the metagame.

It would be kind of nuts if the stat saves triggered on everything. (I'm remembering an old match where twin Wiznaibus met up with two speed save units.) However, I think a dance that drops a stat, if it connects, should still trigger a chance to save a different stat (or the same stat). From my view, what makes a team like Raven's so invincible (apart from the fact that they can tank and heal like nobody's business...and the fact that Raven knows the AI well enough to limit the Dancers) is the fact that hardly anything they do triggers reactions...and certainly none of the really good reactions. It'd be nice if they triggered stat saves, though admittedly that could cause a few complications. It would also be nice if they triggered Counter Magic. And do the Talk Skills trigger anything apart from Finger Guard?

And yeah, rock-paper-scissors, I know. I do need to keep that in mind. My main team beats my twin Samurai team, which can beat the MA mage teams, which can beat my main team. Pretty much textbook rock-paper-scissors. I am learning a lot from repeatedly getting my ass kicked though. And just from running test matches in general really. It's sometimes hard to see a team's strengths and weaknesses on paper. "Two Chemists and two Dancers," I said to myself. "Pfft, I can take that!" Should've known it was called "The Brick Wall" for a reason. Apparently I am very derp. I'm just glad that I decided to run these matches on my own computer and not post up my teams in the submission thread without testing them, thus allowing everyone else to watch the foolishness that inevitably occurs while attempting to design a decent team.

I can still make changes to my Tourney team if I get them in before April 28th, right? The build I originally submitted is infinitely weaker than the one I'm testing now...and I'm still fine-tuning the test build.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Fantactic1316 on April 22, 2012, 09:34:30 PM
Martial Arts doesn't affect Punch Art skills??
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: dacheat on April 22, 2012, 09:40:57 PM
I'm pretty sure that it does...
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Fantactic1316 on April 22, 2012, 10:00:14 PM
Might be an issue with the team builder spreadsheet then. Guess I'll have to fire up a match to know for sure.

EDIT: Yep, that's it. It wasn't affecting the damage output on the simulator spreadsheet, but it does work in game.

EDIT2: I'm an idiot. Changed the value of the ability, but not the modifier.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Gaignun on April 22, 2012, 11:11:20 PM
Which version of the spreadsheet are you using?  Martial Arts should be modifying punch art skills in v1.01.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Fantactic1316 on April 22, 2012, 11:48:17 PM
See my second edit. I was just using it wrong. I was adding and removing the Monk skill, but not changing the value on the modifier. The simulation only applies the effect to damage output if the modifier is set.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Fantactic1316 on April 23, 2012, 09:17:42 PM
Me again, back for more whining. You guys sick of me yet?

Geomancers. Correct me if I'm wrong, but they seem to have had nerfs to both their damage output *and* their range. (It's the *and* that bothers me most.) My 14 MA Geo only does ~50 damage to most units. I'd actually be okay with that if she had 5 range. As is she only has 4, and she's expected to compete against 5-6 range priests/wizards, and 5 range oracles. I think Geos have had one nerf too many.

Unyielding/Overwhelm. I don't like them. Well, not so much I don't like them as I think they're redundant. We already have supports skills like Attack Up, Magic Attack Up, Defense Up, and Magic Defend Up. We also have Fury, Faith, and Compatibility for increasing/decreasing the damage you give and receive. At least Unyielding is balanced by lower healing, but Overwhelm doesn't seem to have any drawback to it at all. You just get to raise your unit's effective stats...and we already have skills for that.

Lastly, does Silence stop Chakra and Revive or is my Monk just an idiot?
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: TrueLight on April 23, 2012, 10:17:52 PM
Geomancers. Correct me if I'm wrong, but they seem to have had nerfs to both their damage output *and* their range. (It's the *and* that bothers me most.) My 14 MA Geo only does ~50 damage to most units. I'd actually be okay with that if she had 5 range. As is she only has 4, and she's expected to compete against 5-6 range priests/wizards, and 5 range oracles. I think Geos have had one nerf too many.

The damage formula for elemental is actually based on PA and Ma (mostly PA). Your Geo needs a balanced of the two to do decent damage. Something on the line of Rune Blade/Aegis Shield/Twist Headband (Golden Hairpin)/ Power Sleeve/Diamond Armlet + Magic Attack Up will greatly improve the damage. The range of Elemental if fine. 100 percent accuracy and a chance to cause status is very good and giving it more range will just make it OP.

Lastly, does Silence stop Chakra and Revive or is my Monk just an idiot?

Your Monk is an idiot.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Fantactic1316 on April 23, 2012, 10:34:07 PM
The damage formula for elemental is actually based on PA and Ma (mostly PA). Your Geo needs a balanced of the two to do decent damage. Something on the line of Rune Blade/Aegis Shield/Twist Headband (Golden Hairpin)/ Power Sleeve/Diamond Armlet + Magic Attack Up will greatly improve the damage. The range of Elemental if fine. 100 percent accuracy and a chance to cause status is very good and giving it more range will just make it OP.

Okay, so I can power up my Geo with gear. But an Oracle can inflict status at a higher rate from longer range. A Priest with Holy and MA gear can do ungodly damage (far more than even a well-equipped Geomancer) at 100% accuracy and outranges the Geo by 2 panels. A Wizard could conceivably attack from an effective 7 range with AoE, while a Geo can only hope for an effective 5 at best, assuming that the target happens to be on level ground. I maintain that Geos can't really effectively compete against their counterparts.

ETA: I wouldn't object to Geomancy becoming subject to Magic Evasion.

Your Monk is an idiot.

Fair enough. Guess I'll have to think about limiting his choices.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: dacheat on April 23, 2012, 10:44:34 PM
I kinda sorta agree with Fantactic on Holy (but not Flare). In and of itself, it isn't an unbalanced skill, but IMO it makes the White Magic set OP. I mean, just with White Magic alone you can be a walking artillery piece with Holy, a good buffer with Protect/Shell2, a rezzer with Raise 2, and the best healer in the game with Cure 4. I think that Holy should get a slight debuff so that it still does 100-150 damage on a well built mage, but not much more than that.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: CT5Holy on April 23, 2012, 10:49:32 PM
I actually wouldn't mind seeing Geomancy range back to 5 again. It's hardly used nowadays, and the only way to get decent damage is to fully optimize for it.

Geomancy should not be subject to magic evasion, since one of it's saving graces is that it's 100% hit.

Unrelated note, but Bio 2 and 3 JP costs could be lowered a bit IMO.

What do people think about Songs/Dances down to 150 JP?
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: formerdeathcorps on April 23, 2012, 11:20:42 PM
The White Magic set isn't OP because you can't use all those spells at once.  You shouldn't have Cure and Protect2 at the same time because neither will be used reliably in the presence of the other.  Regen is even worse; it has the same AI priority as healing HP.  You similarly shouldn't have Protect2 and Shell2 because the AI isn't very good at judging the nature of the opponent's attacks (and may use Shell against a physically oriented team).  Wall's minimal AoE makes it good, but not great.  Re-raise < Raise1/2.  Cure4 isn't AoE and pales before murasame or transfusion's AoE effect.  It's only good on teams that use reflect on their own men.  Cure3 is about equal to murasame or transfusion.

Just White Magic alone, however, lacks variety on offense.  Yes, turbo-charged holy does lots of damage to a variety of HP, power, or Speed optimized units, but those aren't the only optimizations in the metagame.  Teams that use shell/MADEF, unyielding, reflect, or absorb/null will have an easy time surviving (1HKOs).  If their counter reply is Short Charged Don't Act (which is 100% at 70+ Faith), a fast unit with Bizen Boat, or Threaten, your white mage (who is also your anti-status unit) is now incapacitated.  The range issue becomes irrelevant when you don't have a 1HKO.  Nobody said you had to run above 40 faith or stuff your units full of one stat.

Quote
ETA: I wouldn't object to Geomancy becoming subject to Magic Evasion.
If we're talking about strengthening Geomancy, I don't see why this is also being brought up.  To be honest, geomancy is only a good damage option on a specialized MA setup (which necessitates something like thief or mediator as the secondary), but I know that a good majority of the metagamers on here would object to my suggestion of returning to vanilla's procs (i.e. stop on hell ivy, don't act on kamaitachi, sleep on demon fire, etc.).

Quote
Unyielding/Overwhelm. I don't like them. Well, not so much I don't like them as I think they're redundant. We already have supports skills like Attack Up, Magic Attack Up, Defense Up, and Magic Defend Up. We also have Fury, Faith, and Compatibility for increasing/decreasing the damage you give and receive. At least Unyielding is balanced by lower healing, but Overwhelm doesn't seem to have any drawback to it at all. You just get to raise your unit's effective stats...and we already have skills for that.
Overwhelm boosts spells and physicals.  This is extremely useful if you have draw out and an MA dependent weapon.  Then you get to boost everything by 20%.  This includes things like Murasame and Transfusion (which aren't boostable any other way).  Also, this 20% is to final damage so you don't have round down issues like you do with ATKUP.  On the whole, Unyielding is a bit more common because not many units have that dual attack option.

CT5Holy, the only songs not worth 200 JP are the HP ones.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: AeroGP on April 23, 2012, 11:59:55 PM
Returning to standard procs doesn't really do much for the Elemental skillset, since it's still at a low proc rate on a low damaging move that requires specialization to make the most of it. It would buff counter flood considerably, though.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Fantactic1316 on April 24, 2012, 12:40:07 AM
I think that Holy should get a slight debuff so that it still does 100-150 damage on a well built mage, but not much more than that.

Sounds a bit severe to me. Most of the MA boosting gear has the lowest HP increases and has no positive status effects attached. An optimized offensive mage really does have to give up certain strategic advantages to raise their damage output. Although I remain, as ever, an advocate for dropping Holy's range to 5.

I actually wouldn't mind seeing Geomancy range back to 5 again. It's hardly used nowadays, and the only way to get decent damage is to fully optimize for it.

Geomancy should not be subject to magic evasion, since one of it's saving graces is that it's 100% hit.

I'd take 5 range evade-able Geomancy over 4 range concentrated Geomancy.

The White Magic set isn't OP because you can't use all those spells at once.

Maybe not, but you can still put a lot onto one unit. It's easy to have an optimized MAtkUp Holy Priest with Cure 2, Raise, and Esuna. The MA setup makes both Holy can Cure more effective, she can raise, and she can heal status too.

Good points though about ways to defend against such a mage or to turn the high Faith against them. And as previously mentioned, the MA gear leaves them squishy and susceptible to status. However, that only counts if you have a unit that can reach the Priest with that 6 range advantage.

I know that a good majority of the metagamers on here would object to my suggestion of returning to vanilla's procs (i.e. stop on hell ivy, don't act on kamaitachi, sleep on demon fire, etc.).

You've got my vote.

Overwhelm boosts spells and physicals.  This is extremely useful if you have draw out and an MA dependent weapon.  Then you get to boost everything by 20%.  This includes things like Murasame and Transfusion (which aren't boostable any other way).

That makes some sense, but skills like Murasame can be boosted by straight MA and MAtkUp support. (Though I'm not sure what the formula is for Transfusion.) For Draw Outs, MAtkUp is effectively the same thing as Overwhelm. Does a Samurai need a boost to both two-handed death and 2 range AoE at the same time? The AI would probably have trouble picking between them anyway. And if you need to raise both stats, you could always use MAtkUp for skill and PA on the gear for a unit that's balanced in both areas.

I still think Overwhelm is redundant, and I'm still not really seeing a drawback to it. I'd like it better if it worked like Fury/Faith, meaning you give more damage but you also take more damage. Even if it were something like "Increases physical/magical damage dealt by 20%, but increases physical/magical damage received by 10%". That could be the trade-off for getting to boost both stats at once.

That's my two cents.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: dacheat on April 24, 2012, 01:15:26 AM
The White Magic set isn't OP because you can't use all those spells at once.  You shouldn't have Cure and Protect2 at the same time because neither will be used reliably in the presence of the other.  Regen is even worse; it has the same AI priority as healing HP.  You similarly shouldn't have Protect2 and Shell2 because the AI isn't very good at judging the nature of the opponent's attacks (and may use Shell against a physically oriented team).  Wall's minimal AoE makes it good, but not great.  Re-raise < Raise1/2.  Cure4 isn't AoE and pales before murasame or transfusion's AoE effect.  It's only good on teams that use reflect on their own men.  Cure3 is about equal to murasame or transfusion.

It's true that it can't do all of those things at once, but it can do all of those things over the course of a match. A unit that can nuke for heavy damage one turn, and then Raise 2 a unit the next is a bit OP IMO. A Priest can sandbag with the best of them, and then nuke the opponent hard when the team gets their legs back under them.

None of these abilities by themselves are OP, but together in one skillset they're OP IMO. Name one other skillset that is as effective offensively and defensively when compared to White Magic.

Just White Magic alone, however, lacks variety on offense.  Yes, turbo-charged holy does lots of damage to a variety of HP, power, or Speed optimized units, but those aren't the only optimizations in the metagame.  Teams that use shell/MADEF, unyielding, reflect, or absorb/null will have an easy time surviving (1HKOs).

Yeah, they can survive the hits, but their team is put into sandbag mode almost immediately, and the defensive unit will probably be left until last since the AI usually targets the unit that it can do the most damage to.

Sounds a bit severe to me. Most of the MA boosting gear has the lowest HP increases and has no positive status effects attached. An optimized offensive mage really does have to give up certain strategic advantages to raise their damage output. Although I remain, as ever, an advocate for dropping Holy's range to 5.

I was just throwing out numbers haha. I didn't think super hard about it. Maybe change the formula from MA*16 to MA*13?

If their counter reply is Short Charged Don't Act (which is 100% at 70+ Faith), a fast unit with Bizen Boat, or Threaten, your white mage (who is also your anti-status unit) is now incapacitated.  The range issue becomes irrelevant when you don't have a 1HKO.  Nobody said you had to run above 40 faith or stuff your units full of one stat.

How often does the AI do that? It's like FDC's argument above about Protect/Shell not being used effectively by the AI. The AI doesn't recognize that it should berserk the mage because it only uses spells. Don't act might be used on it, but it's just as likely to be used on other units. It's probably more likely to be used on others since the Priest usually hangs back. You also don't take into account that a unit specced for speed will most likely be OHKOd by Holy.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: AeroGP on April 24, 2012, 01:34:25 AM
Don't act will in all likeliness hit the mage, especially if she's already charging up Holy, because it would be 100% hit and effectively stop the Holy before it goes off.

Holy is great, but you're both overrating how powerful it is in the current metagame.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: dacheat on April 24, 2012, 01:41:19 AM
Don't act will in all likeliness hit the mage, especially if she's already charging up Holy, because it would be 100% hit and effectively stop the Holy before it goes off.

Holy is great, but you're both overrating how powerful it is in the current metagame.

I never said Holy was OP. I said that the White Magic set was OP. I was just suggesting that nerfing Holy is the easiest way to balance it. I agree that the Priest should have an average/above average offensive spell, but not a 6 range nuke.

Quote from: dacheat
None of these abilities by themselves are OP, but together in one skillset they're OP IMO. Name one other skillset that is as effective offensively and defensively when compared to White Magic.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: formerdeathcorps on April 24, 2012, 02:43:39 AM
Quote
How often does the AI do that? It's like FDC's argument above about Protect/Shell not being used effectively by the AI. The AI doesn't recognize that it should berserk the mage because it only uses spells. Don't act might be used on it, but it's just as likely to be used on other units. It's probably more likely to be used on others since the Priest usually hangs back. You also don't take into account that a unit specced for speed will most likely be OHKOd by Holy.
A charging unit will be priority targeted by the AI, especially by skills that can cancel the attack.  A unit hanging back at a distance of 6 can easily be stopped by a mediator because threaten/refute/mimic daravon have a range of 3.  Ditto with Short Charged Paralyze.  A fast unit would get 1HKO'd if and only if the spell goes off before his turn.  A 12+ SPD with haste would likely get that crucial intermediate turn unless the mage has short charge.  But if the mage has short charge, she's not pulling a 1HKO.  Similarly, if the holy is being directed at a unit behind my front lines because the AI can pull a 1HKO (but can't 1HKO my 370 HP samurai), my front-line samurai with haste is probably only at a distance of 4 from your holy user and can use bizen boat if she gets a turn.

Quote
Yeah, they can survive the hits, but their team is put into sandbag mode almost immediately, and the defensive unit will probably be left until last since the AI usually targets the unit that it can do the most damage to.
In many cases, that defensive unit is the one providing the healing.  Thus, the AI ignoring that unit because of his high HP total only helps him to his job of protecting his allies.  Also, if holy becomes a 2HKO on my non-defensive units, unless you wounded them to critical, they'll keep advancing as I heal myself off MHPUP, regen, or some healing reaction.  IN a case like that, holy simply becomes another weapon the volley of attacks from both sides.

Quote
It's true that it can't do all of those things at once, but it can do all of those things over the course of a match. A unit that can nuke for heavy damage one turn, and then Raise 2 a unit the next is a bit OP IMO. A Priest can sandbag with the best of them, and then nuke the opponent hard when the team gets their legs back under them.
For all the options available to you, you still shouldn't purchase them all.  You'll have the AI use protect when it should use cure and vice-versa.  That can cause your squad to lose tight matches; this advantage is double-edged.

Quote
Name one other skillset that is as effective offensively and defensively when compared to White Magic.
Except as I just made clear, White Magic's offense is great but not too diverse.  Hence, overall, it's only above average.  It's comparable to draw out and summon in terms of usefulness.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Fanatic on April 24, 2012, 03:03:44 AM
Geomancy is actually kinda of nice. Mathmatically, the best carrier class is the Bard, and you can set up a bard to do roughly 126 damage and still have an accessory slot free for shell, protect, 108 gems, or whatever you want to put there. You HP will be crap (250ish?), but with 40 brave, 60 faith, shell, and maybe something like counter flood, you can put up some very respectable numbers without being OHKOd.

I was actually thinking of running a team with two optimized bard/geos. I'd have to combine them with two healing units, but 126 damage counter flood would be pretty fun. Course, shell + autopotion would ruin my day, not to mention status effects can vary a bunch...

I'm with FDC on White Magic. White Magic is not OP. Utility is not OP. By that logic, Monk is OP, because Monks can 1) inflict an instant death status effect, 2) instantly cure most status ailments, 3) restore HP AND MPs to multiple units, 4) Revive dead units, 4) hit a wide area of effect, 5) strike with powerful unevadable single space attack.

I'll grant that White Magic is better at most of those things than Punchart (not status removing though). But White Magic is subject to charging, so without short charge, you run the risk of the dreaded mid charge attack. And assuming you're not rocking undead, all you have to do is slap on "cancel" or "absorb" holy, and white magic can't hurt you at all. True, you can sandbag pretty damn good with it, but if you are sandbagging, you aren't attacking. It may be counter intuitive, but from my personal (perhaps "limited") observation, a heavy sandbag team will probably lose to a team optimized for massive damage - optimized damage teams usually lose because they have team members taken out of the fight before they can let loose with all their power. This is precisely why status effect teams are so deadly - they can derail an offense from the get go.

I support things as they stand with white magic.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Fantactic1316 on April 24, 2012, 03:42:15 AM
I was just throwing out numbers haha. I didn't think super hard about it. Maybe change the formula from MA*16 to MA*13?

I think the formula's actually okay, personally.

It is just one offensive spell with one element. Pit Holy against a team with two Small Mantles and two Chameleon Robes and you're screwed. Although, that build would be pretty rare, at best.

Holy is great, but you're both overrating how powerful it is in the current metagame.

None of these abilities by themselves are OP, but together in one skillset they're OP IMO. Name one other skillset that is as effective offensively and defensively when compared to White Magic.

Whereas I think Holy is OP by itself, but only because of the range. My challenge would be: Name one other skill or class that can deal over 300 damage at 100% accuracy from 6 panels away.

The Stone Gun (6 range, 100% accuracy) deals ~200 to units with ~55 Fury. The Magic Guns (again, 6 range, 100% accuracy) deal ~150 from a 70 Faith unit to a 100 Faith (Faith Rod) unit with a Tier 1 spell, which fires most often. Tier 4 Black Magic does comparable damage, but at only 5 Range. Flare does higher damage, at the same range, though with greater MP and CT values.

I'm of the opinion that *if* Holy and Flare get to be 6 range, then their MP cost should go up by at least 10, their JP cost by at least 50, and their CT by 1. If it's going to be high damage *and* 100% accuracy *and* 6 range, there should at least be some attempt to deter people from spamming it. Another suggestion could be to subject Holy/Flare/Tier 4 to Magic Evasion (though I'm sure everyone hates that idea). Currently, M-Ev gear doesn't do very much except against low Tier magic and Draw Outs.

As for a skill set with similar variety, Punch Art would come in at a distant second. It can heal, revive, remove status, and deal damage, both single panel and AoE from up to 5 range, and that damage can be increased by an optimized PA set. Although, in everything but AoE damage, Punch Art is far outclassed by White Magic. There could be a case for charge time and MP cost, but those are currently negligible to an optimized mage.

Perhaps if MA gear didn't give as much MP. Look at something like the Golden Hairpin, which gives 1MA *and* strengthens Holy and Dark *and* has the most MP out of all the Hats. If you had to make a choice between high damage or spamming, that might make things slightly more balanced.

There are lots of things that could make mages less OP. Though I think the easiest thing would be to put the range of Holy and Flare at 5. Hell, I'd even support a range buff support skill that would boost range from 5 all the way to 8, because then they'd have to choose between high range or MAtkUp.

And to anyone who thinks that White Magic isn't currently OP or is easy enough to get around, run your team against teams like "Team Rellia", "Welcome to my Mind", and "Holy Stones" and let me know how it goes. I'd bet money that such well-designed mages could be every bit as threatening with only 5 range.

My assertion all along has been that a well-designed mage with competent teammates is perfectly capable of kicking your ass with 5 range, so why does it have 6?
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: formerdeathcorps on April 24, 2012, 09:23:12 AM
Refutation (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FKSKR4YbMlE)
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Fantactic1316 on April 24, 2012, 08:36:18 PM
In my defense, I didn't say no one could beat it. No build is invincible. I didn't say invincible, I said OP. If you design a team specifically for the purpose of beating one other team, of course you will win. And I still think that the diversity of the skillset and the power of the skill are actually just fine. I only object to the range.

In my opinion, a team with an optimized Holy mage will roll over more builds than it should. There are plenty of balanced builds, which should be able to stand their ground against an optimized magic team and win roughly 50% of the time, if the RNG favors them, but the range puts them at a distinct disadvantage. It's hard for most builds to hold their ground against a unit that can consistently reach and OHKO nearly any non-tank unit, even after Raise 2. This effectively nullifies two units, one dead and one sandbagging, leaving two units to take on the other three enemy units. There are other optimized units that can achieve the same effect, but those units at least have to step into moderate range and expose themselves to potential AoE or other damage.

It's not that optimized mage teams are unbeatable, but that they have an advantage over too many builds. And if you design a team specifically to cut paper, then you will be smashed by rock. A balanced team can't compete against Holy at 6 range. Most balanced builds probably wouldn't have enough power to win even if Holy were at 5, but they could at least make a fight of it. So much of FFT is subject to the RNG in one way or another. And when an ability is not subjected to RNG, it is limited in some other way. Holy has a very liberal amount of power. There are weights on the other side of the scale, but not enough to balance it. I don't think losing one panel of range would make Holy underpowered in any way, but rather balanced.

I'm still failing to see why Holy needs 6 range when it can frak you up with 5.

Kudos on the victory though. That was a very thorough demonstration of how to beat an optimized Magic team and how to turn their Faith against them. Well-played.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: FFMaster on April 25, 2012, 02:33:30 AM
People need to stop using theorycraft. As I've said a bunch of times, if you want to show something is OP, abuse it to hell and back until people agree with you. That's the only way to get changes to happen around here.

Berserkers were nerfed because everyone used them and anyone who didn't lost. Ninjitsu was nerfed for similar reasons. Haste status was hit because almost every team needed it ever since FFT AI tournaments. There was even one point where Squire skillset had to be nerfed. The thing they had in common was that people who found how powerful it was abused it until I changed it or gets banned until next version. That is the nature of a competitive game.

On a side note, slowly buffing Geomancy again isn't a horrible idea. It has a lot perks that a lot of skills in other skillsets want (such as ignoring Faith/Fury completely, hence being able to run tanky 40/40 units and 100% accuracy no matter what at potentially 5 range and no charge time) but pays for it in terms of power and the base class is mediocre at best. Here are some options I've considered:

- Buff Y some more, expect maybe +10/20ish damage
- Increase Geomancy range back to vanillas 5 range, 1 AoE which would potentially reach Holy/Flare range
- Increase Geomancer base class move range to 5, making it the 5 move class except for Mime
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Gaignun on April 25, 2012, 03:42:13 AM
Quote from: FFMaster
People need to stop using theorycraft. As I've said a bunch of times, if you want to show something is OP, abuse it to hell and back until people agree with you. That's the only way to get changes to happen around here.

I don't know.  I think some of the suggested changes here are creative.  I can't speak for the ones that say "nerf X", but suggestions that aim to open new designs are legitimate.  We'll see what is being abused in a few weeks.

Quote from: FFMaster
Buff Y some more, expect maybe +10/20ish damage

I'm fine with the other changes, but I really don't think the free-of-charge 100% AoE spell that procs status, ignores brave/faith, and can be set as a reaction ability needs to be any more powerful.

Gaignun, the way I coded oil makes your suggestions to oil rather impractical: you'd either have to single out fire weakness induced by oil as 1.5x weakness or change elemental weakness as a whole to 1.5x.

This comes late, but what do people think of reducing elemental weakness to 1.5x?  The current modifier of 2.0x is a death sentence to anyone who doesn't cover their weakness.  There are so few weaknesses that the change won't affect much as of now, but it would give the green light for implementing more oil skills without rocking the boat.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: formerdeathcorps on April 27, 2012, 02:08:37 AM
Cover fire is not worth the MP cost because the formula is written wrong.  Right now, a martial arts monk with maxPA averages 132 damage (with a 1/3 chance of 198 and 66, respectively).  Although it nicely avoids the fury calculation, this is not a worthwhile when spin fist has a bigger AoE, costs 0 MP, and does 243 damage (before fury) and wave fist does 270 damage at good range (before fury).

However, the given formula is broken: a max-PA monk with martial arts averages (18 * 3/2 * 3 + 60) * 2 = 282 damage at AoE, ignoring fury.  Thus, I propose cover fire's formula be changed to (PA * 2 + 60) * {1...3},
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Fantactic1316 on April 27, 2012, 04:20:53 AM
Couple of suggestions, wondering how others feel.

Haste 2 and Slow 2 should go back to affecting enemies/allies. As is they get high success rate (even from high Faith caster to low Faith target), a large AoE, and can never hinder your own team/help your enemies, so casters can fire it off indiscriminately. Meanwhile Samurais get the exact opposite (which is a good thing, but I think it should apply to the Time Magic as well).

How would people feel about the Stone Gun losing Initial: Petrify and gaining Always: Slow? Currently it doesn't get used very often and when it does, the teams come prepared to heal it, so they only waste the opening round and get a pretty hefty bit of power. I think Always: Slow would encourage more use and also balance out the power a bit. With Always: Slow, it could possibly even stand to gain one or two WP. Or maybe Always: Slow, Protect. Something more like the Iron Boots. It could even be Always: Don't Move, but get a range buff. Just a few potential suggestions. Any thoughts?

Lastly, Faith Up has some weird triggers. Just recently, I saw a unit get missed by an Esuna spell she happened to be standing next to, and then counter with Faith Up. Just an observation, not really sure what to suggest for that one.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Pride on April 27, 2012, 04:29:23 AM
Faith Up should be triggered when the unit is targeted by an attack that consumes MP iirc
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Dynablade on April 27, 2012, 04:30:12 AM
I'm kinda messed up but just let me say this
The stone gun has been the same since vanilla, and if it hasn't been changed by now, don't expect it to be. Initial: Petrify forces your squad to waste at least one turn trying to restore the unit, which sorta puts you at a disadvantage. Always: Slow would REALLY suck, like "damn why even use this" suck.

Restore MP does stuff like that too, even on spells that help the unit they can still react. Dunno how that works..
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: CT5Holy on April 27, 2012, 04:35:00 AM
Always: Slow would make it unusable. End of story.

And obviously the teams would cure the Initial: Petrify. Why else would someone use it?
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: formerdeathcorps on April 27, 2012, 05:16:10 AM
To be honest, Absorb MP and Faith Up triggering off anything that uses MP allows you to chain it to stuff like battle song.  Since this lets me build better synergies, I see no reason to change that.
Stone Gun isn't really broken right now.  The damage is only average, the range is OK, but on a small map, your team loses the tempo of 2 attackers.

Equips:
Madlemgen's proc should be changed to Magic Ruin so it would be more useful (while having the same overall effect)
Change Ultimus bow to 15 WP, +1 PA.  This would at least guarantee some level of use.
Change Windslash bow to 12 WP, Wind Elemental, 19% Hurricane (-33% of maxHP, wind elemental)
Change Lightning bow to 13 WP, Lightning Elemental, 25% Don't Act
Change Ice bow to 13 WP, Ice Elemental, 25% Stop
Change Silver bow to 12 WP, Holy Elemental, 19% Holy
Possibly make longbow a 12 range weapon that adds don't move.  Alternatively, it being 8 range would work too.
Consolidate Assassin's Dagger with throwing knife.  Right now, neither is a good weapon, but combined, they might pose a real benefit to mediators who don't want to learn death sentence.  Instead of Assassin's Dagger, add the Rusty Shank (8 WP, 2Sable, 50% +Poison)
Make Diamond and Platina shield 15/15 on evasion.
Give N-Kai null undead instead of confuse.
Give Jade Armlet null ice instead of null chicken.
Give Reflect Ring null berserk instead of silence.  (It's currently overshadowing the magic ring a bit too much right now.)
Give Defense Armlet absorb fire.
Give Defense Ring some evasion (8/8 should do, I think).

Status:
Oil should add weak to more (possibly all) elements.  Of course, this means it will be dispelled by attacks of all elements.

Abilities:
Secret Fist should be MA + 75% (subject to P-EV) to have any reasonable level of parity with the mediator skill.
Make Wiznaibus add poison (at 50%) so it's not entirely blocked by auto-potion.  Make Nameless Dance add oil (see above change) instead of poison.
Similarly, have life song add regen (at 50%) so it's not entirely overshadowed by mimed murasame.
Make nameless song 4 CT and have it add reraise, protect, or shell at 33% chance.  This would make it much likelier that it would be used to save a unit's life without causing the AI to never do anything else.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Fantactic1316 on April 27, 2012, 08:15:01 AM
Always: Slow would make it unusable. End of story.

Yeah, Slow is a bit severe.

I guess I was just thinking it should be slightly easier to use, but still with something to balance the power. Just me, I suppose.

And obviously the teams would cure the Initial: Petrify. Why else would someone use it?

I was thinking of running a dual-sex Charm offensive and tricking the enemy into curing Petrify. Too convoluted? =P
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Fantactic1316 on April 27, 2012, 05:36:40 PM
One more suggestion: I think it would be neat if Odin became more like Silf. More specifically, like Lava Ball. Low-ish damage, but with a flat 20% chance of adding Dead.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: FFMaster on April 28, 2012, 05:19:00 AM
I've got a similar plan for Odin in the works already. Just need some time to ASM edit it.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Gaignun on April 28, 2012, 09:56:46 PM
Status:
Oil should add weak to more (possibly all) elements.  Of course, this means it will be dispelled by attacks of all elements.

I like this one.  Maybe have it add weakness to all but holy and dark.  That way we can reserve holy and dark for powerful AoE (of which we already have two: Koutetsu and Cyclops) without having to worry about oil catalysing one-hit kills of entire parties.  Reducing the weakness modifier might also be a good idea.

I have another case to make against infinite-duration silence.  Teams subjected to a performing Nameless dancer will never cure silence in fear of being afflicted with it again.  Mages without silence resistance on these teams become useless once the ailment procs.  If silence has infinite duration for a reason, then please tell me why.  If not, can we give it a duration to the beat of 20~30 CT?

Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: formerdeathcorps on April 29, 2012, 02:50:48 AM
To be honest, if blind is infinite duration, so too must silence.  The only reliable source of silence is silence song.  Since a good number faith rod mages use the reflect ring, not nulling silence is a moot point, even if we change reflect ring to blocking berserk (because the oracle would have to then run dispel magic).  Nameless Song requires a specialized setup (meaning such a team is less flexible than an elite team) and Bizen Boat is a relatively underpowered weapon these days.  The only units that currently need to avoid silence are mediators, but I don't think too many people would oppose the existence of something checking them.
The real reason no one is considering it is because it is fairly difficult to ASM in a feature that does not exist in the game that the game has no space to add.

As for reducing the weakness modifier, since not much gear even adds weakness and the teams that employ it usually run gear that negates weakness by absorbing, halving, or nulling the element in question (which they should be doing anyways), I see little point.  Unless we add my change to Fire1 (adding oil), I don't think many people will consciously use oil because it currently exists on suboptimal gear (short edge) or attacks (demon fire, greased bolt).  Adding weakness to every element is only meant to give an oil team a wider variety of attacks to work with (though you are right in saying that darkness and holy are stronger than the other elements on average).
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Gaignun on April 29, 2012, 03:12:25 AM
Then we give blind finite duration, too.  That silence is nulled by a popular accessory does not hold water against the call for change.  That's like saying gasoline can be left at $100/L because everybody drives an electric car, when, in truth, everybody might be driving an electric car because gasoline is $100/L.  Difficulty in giving silence a duration, however, does hold water.  I thought giving ailments a duration was a simple as changing a variable.  It seems I thought wrong.

Of course the change to weakness would change little now.  I'm thinking of a patch that features more oil (for example, in nameless dance, kiyomori, poison (spell), and fire1 as you suggested). 
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: AeroGP on April 29, 2012, 03:54:26 AM
That's like saying gasoline can be left at $100/L because everybody drives an electric car, when, in truth, everybody might be driving an electric car because gasoline is $100/L.

That holds even less water, because in this case we can say with certainty that the "cost of gasoline" isn't affecting people's decision to "drive electric cars". It's just more efficient to "drive electric cars" than to waste time with "gasoline" - the only way you'd change anyone's mind is if the "price" was practically zero.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Gaignun on April 29, 2012, 04:03:24 AM
Its price isn't zero now, yet people drive cars that require it.  Electricity isn't free, either.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: AeroGP on April 29, 2012, 04:20:24 AM
Its price isn't zero now, yet people drive cars that require it.  Electricity isn't free, either.

The "cars" aren't very good, tbh, and the "price of electricity" is negligible compared to the benefits.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Gaignun on April 29, 2012, 04:52:05 AM
I don't expect that every consumer wants to buy an electric car knowing it costs about $10,000 more than an economy-sized gasoline-powered car, has a range of a few tens of kilometres, takes hours to recharge, and will become scrap metal once the batteries die out.  And every consumer doesn't.  My message is about giving consumers a choice.

To put this in FFT's terms, I don't expect every person to want to put a reflect ring on a mage knowing that reflect can be dispelled, ignored by summon magic and lore, and that it blocks friendly healing and support.  I want people to freely consider giving their mages evasion, elemental absorption, and status resistance.  My suggestion is a modest one: put a duration on silence so that teams without reflect rings aren't hamstrung by an inept AI.  Silence will still have its role in shutting down mages, just as gasoline prices have their role in pushing people toward electric cars.  Those afraid of silence can still choose electric.  Those not afraid can try something else.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: FFMaster on April 29, 2012, 05:26:28 AM
All that I see will happen is that people will move from using Silence to using Don't Act if they haven't already. Silence with a CT is a poor man's Don't Act. Unless we nerf both somehow? I've never really messed with status CT before. I just know that Silence doesn't take CT in Patcher.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Gaignun on April 29, 2012, 05:39:52 AM
That's true.  I suppose we could compromise.  Don't act has a CT of 20, so silence could have a CT of around 30.  Silence could also be made to prevent the use of all skills and give that poor man at least enough money to feed himself.  The fact that it doesn't take CT is a problem, though, forcing me to suggest we strip silence from nameless dance, which I think has already been stripped enough.  This would also apply with blind.  Considering the grief we've been having with nameless dance, perhaps it's time to redesign it into something that doesn't tend to break the AI - something like 50% chance of dispell.  Then again, if this change scares the AI into refusing to buff itself, then we're no better off.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: formerdeathcorps on April 29, 2012, 06:17:27 AM
Nobody here complains that petrify or frog are perpetual and they are far worse than silence.  Why is there a sudden complaint against silence?

Also, nameless dance is a gamble but it can be used because you mess up your dancer's AI and the AI of the entire enemy team.  That's a fair bargain for being forced to run a unit who'll choose dancing over healing (much of the time) and a mime to ensure enough of the statues actually hit the target.  Thus, I don't think it needs to be changed to something radically different anymore.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Gaignun on April 29, 2012, 06:34:11 AM
I'm not complaining about petrify because nameless dance doesn't proc it.  Frog I have complained about, but I haven't yet been able to generate much dialogue about it.

If nameless dance messes up the dancer's AI as well as the opponent's, then perhaps it needs to be redesigned indeed.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Gaignun on May 06, 2012, 06:44:35 AM
Most changes sound reasonable to me.

Quote
Summoner
Change: All spells CT > 4 take M-EV.

Summons on the whole are going to need a little shuffling around to keep the skill set balanced in this case.  Here are a few suggestions:

Leviathan: Dmg_F(MA*8), water elemental, 10% +Frog, 20 MP, 5 CT
Salamander: Dmg_F(MA*8), fire elemental, 30% +Poison, 20 MP, 5 CT
Titan: Dmg_F(MA*9), earth elemental, 20% +Don't Move, 20 MP, 5 CT
Silf: Dmg_F(MA*8), wind elemental, 20% +Don't Act, 25 MP, 3 CT

Quote
Add: Warpath (+3 Fury at end of the turn if moved, 300 JP)
Add: Holy March (+3 Faith at end of the turn if moved, 300 JP)

You sure about these?  I can't refuse new movement ideas, given how there are so few, but +3 seems a little high.  Faith UP and Brave UP will look terribly expensive by comparison.

Also, how does a movement skill that adds +5 CT for, say, 500 JP sound?

Quote
Dead:
Cancel Oil

I propose we add "Cancel: Frog" to this list.

Finally, what do people think about giving male mage classes a significant HP boost?  They are currently eclipsed by their female counterparts in terms of MA, and their extra PA is of little practical use.  They also have extra HP, but not enough to tempt people away from the females.  A boost of 10~20 HP might do the trick.  Pushing their HP past that of melee classes is not a problem, as they still won't have armour, shields, nor destructive power of these melee classes.  This would help differentiate the males from the females.  The males can be used as tanky support/status units, and the females can remain as glass cannons.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: formerdeathcorps on May 06, 2012, 07:09:21 AM
Quote
I propose we add "Cancel: Frog" to this list.
I disagree for the reason that there should exist means to punish someone who just spams raise without actually bothering to heal status effects.  The part with dead canceling oil was only to resolve a bug where a boosted attack that becomes a 1HKO would not remove oil because dead status from the 1HKO was applied first.

Quote
given how there are so few, but +3 seems a little high.  Faith UP and Brave UP will look terribly expensive by comparison.
If we want, we can definitely reduce the bonus to +2.  However, given the JP costs are comparable to Brave/Faith Up, it shouldn't be that much of a difference.  The only difference is that Brave/Faith Up requires a bard to reliably use and this doesn't.

Quote
Finally, what do people think about giving male mage classes a significant HP boost?  They are currently eclipsed by their female counterparts in terms of MA, and their extra PA is of little practical use.  They also have extra HP, but not enough to tempt people away from the females.  A boost of 10~20 HP might do the trick.  Pushing their HP past that of melee classes is not a problem, as they still won't have armour, shields, nor destructive power of these melee classes.  This would help differentiate the males from the females.  The males can be used as tanky support/status units, and the females can remain as glass cannons.
I agree with you here, but we can't really do this without increasing the HP on all mage classes or on all males unless we fix how FFT calculates its HP growths.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Barren on May 06, 2012, 10:13:57 AM
should we remove diamond sword and replace it with flame tongue?
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: formerdeathcorps on May 06, 2012, 12:54:30 PM
should we remove diamond sword and replace it with flame tongue?
Considering how well my team synchronized it to platina dagger (or alternatively, 2S/2H), I'd argue otherwise, but I'm indifferent either way.  However, lightning elemental could use a decent melee weapon.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Gaignun on May 06, 2012, 01:19:36 PM
I disagree for the reason that there should exist means to punish someone who just spams raise without actually bothering to heal status effects.

Frogs will die even if teams come prepared to cure it.  At 150% incurred damage, they draw the entire enemy team's fire.  Also, support units restore the frog's HP over curing the status.  The only way to cure frog is to have a significant turn lead.  If you want statii to stick around after death, I suggest statii that don't break the AI.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: formerdeathcorps on May 07, 2012, 04:59:28 AM
Quote
Also, support units restore the frog's HP over curing the status

That's standard AI behavior for every status effect that doesn't specifically change the AI behavior or isn't flagged KO or ignore.  The problem, of course, is that frog is not your average status.  An IRC poll shows most people support your change, so I guess I'll add it.

To replace it, I think poison and regen should persist after death.  Both are currently undervalued status effects that could use a boost.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Shintroy on May 07, 2012, 03:05:10 PM
Masamune should cost 400-500 JP, or at LEAST Haste 2 + Regen's JP cost combined.

Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: formerdeathcorps on May 07, 2012, 03:10:27 PM
Masamune should cost 400-500 JP, or at LEAST Haste 2 + Regen's JP cost combined.

Don't worry.  It's getting nerfed to only affect two units at a time, one of which must be the caster.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: CT5Holy on May 08, 2012, 07:56:53 PM
A very little thing, but you know how some people will specify a unit order? Why not just arrange the units in the order that you want them? That little bit feels unnecessary.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Barren on May 10, 2012, 02:10:43 AM
I just looked at Bizen Boat as a weapon. It could use 1 more WP so it'd be on the same par as Masamune
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Shintroy on May 10, 2012, 03:06:38 AM
I just looked at Bizen Boat as a weapon. It could use 1 more WP so it'd be on the same par as Masamune

Make a weapon (Knife) that only damages MP.

Knife, Rod and Bow maybe.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: CT5Holy on May 10, 2012, 04:05:39 AM
Demi 2 should get buffed in some way. I was thinking of one of these:

1. Shorter charge time
2. Higher hit rate
3. AoE up to 2
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Xifanie on May 10, 2012, 04:35:15 AM
A very little thing, but you know how some people will specify a unit order? Why not just arrange the units in the order that you want them? That little bit feels unnecessary.
That feature will be removed in the new memory card generator, it is indeed rather useless
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Shintroy on May 10, 2012, 05:10:28 AM
Seriously make some weapons that damage only MP.
There's enough hard counters for melee units.

I want to use Salty Rage
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Barren on May 10, 2012, 05:46:15 PM
I think we should also remove immune chicken on the gold helmet since we don't have to worry about brave being lowered anymore. maybe replace it with something else or just simply remove immune chicken
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: formerdeathcorps on May 10, 2012, 08:06:18 PM
Good point.  Also, switching back to Vanilla Procs means Local Quake would add Confuse again.  Any idea what it should add instead?
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Avalanche on May 10, 2012, 09:49:41 PM
whats so bad about confuse?
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Barren on May 10, 2012, 10:32:24 PM
Well we really don't use confuse anymore considering that beguile now inflicts charm
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on May 10, 2012, 11:28:09 PM
whats so bad about confuse?

It can lead to the AI refusing to kill the Confused units and having a battle that never ends.

See: the infamous "Loss" strategy used against Adramelk and other Confuse-using bosses in many FFT challenge runs.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: formerdeathcorps on May 11, 2012, 12:26:43 AM
Collected Changes (updated with the problems Barren pointed out):

Equips:
Throwing Knife (Gain +33% Death Sentence)
Dual Cutters (Gain +1 WP)
Blind Knife => Pain Knife (9 WP, 2S, no2H, +1 Move, 15% W-EV, +5% Crystal)
Mage Masher (Change proc to 50% Bizen Boat)
Assassin Dagger => Katar (12 WP, no2S, no2H, +1 Move, 15% W-EV, +1 PA)
Spell Edge (Change +1 MA to 50% Spell Absorb)
All Knight Swords (+1 WP)
Koutetsu (Add: +1 PA)
Heaven's Cloud (Change +1 PA to Proc: 50% Slow)
Healing Staff (+1 WP)
Rainbow Staff (-1 WP, Remove: All Elements)
Bow Gun (Change proc to 50% Armorbreak)
Blaze Gun (12-13 WP, Change proc to 100% Fire3)
Glacier Gun (11-12 WP, Change proc to 100% Ice3)
Blast Gun (10-11 WP, Change proc to 100% Bolt3)
Cross Bow => Silencer (10 WP, +50% Silence, 4 Range, 0% W-EV)
Poison Bow (+2 WP)
Longbow (+2 Range)
Silver Bow (Proc: 19% Holy)
Ice Bow (Change all effects to Proc: 25% Stop)
Lightning Bow (Change all effects to Proc: 25% Don't Act)
Windslash Bow (Proc: 19% Hurricane)
Ultimus Bow (+1 PA)
Monster Dictionary (Change proc to Magic Ruin)
Mythril Shield (Change to 15 / 15)
Gold Shield (Change to 25 / 5)
Ice Shield (Change to 20 / 10)
Flame Shield (Change to 20 / 10)
Diamond Shield (Change to 15 / 15)
Platina Shield (Change to 15 / 15)
Crystal Shield (Change to 20 / 20, halve/weak: all elements)
Genji Shield (Change to 10 / 5)
Venetian Plate => Glitter Shield (+1 SPD, 5 / 5)
Gold Helmet (Change Null: Chicken to Null: Don't Move)
Genji Helmet (Chance Null: Don't Move to Initial: Berserk)
N-Kai Armlet (Change Null: Confuse to Undead)
Jade Armlet (Change Null: Chicken to Ice)
Reflect Ring (Change Null: Silence to Berserk)
Defense Armlet (+Absorb: Fire)
Defense Ring (+8/8)
Small Mantle (10 / 20, Null: Holy/EArth)
Wizard Mantle (15 / 25, Null: Don't Act)
Leather Mantle (20 / 30)
Elf Mantle (25 / 25)
Feather Mantle (30 / 20)
Dracula Mantle (25 / 15, Null: Berserk)
Vanish Mantle (20 / 10, Null: Wind/Water)


Jobs:

Squire
Remove: Cheer Up
Change: Bullrush (Change to Null: Haste)
Add: Alacrity (10 MP, +1 MA, Self, 200 JP)
Add: Wild Blow (Weapon Elemental/Range, RN{XA / 2...XA * 3 / 2} * WP, unevadable, 5 MP, 100 JP)
Add: Concentrate (400 JP)

Paladin
Remove: Dia
Remove: Iron Will
Remove: Magic Ward
Change: Nurse (Add: Defend/Regen)
Change: Transfusion (Remove MP Cost)
Add: Prepare (Add: Protect/Shell, 6 MP, Self, 200 JP)
Add: Reraise (Add: Reraise, 3 Range, 3 Vert, 16 MP, 200 JP)
Add: Wretched Blade (Weapon Element, PA * WP, 6 MP, +Poison, 1 AoE, Vert 1, NoSelf, 250 JP)

Archer
Remove: Greased Bolt
Change: Hawkseye (+Proc: Poison/Oil)
Change: Execute (Change damage to 40% of maxHP)
Change: Cover Fire (Change damage to (PA * 2 + 60) * RNG{1..3})

Monk
Change: Secret Fist (Change Y to 65)
Add: Warpath (+3 Fury at end of the turn if moved, 300 JP)

Priest
Remove: Reraise
Add: Dia (See old Paladin)
Add: Holy March (+3 Faith at end of the turn if moved, 300 JP)

Wizard
(+15 MAM)
Remove: Fire1
Remove: Ice1
Remove: Bolt1
Add: Fire 2 Back (Same as old Fire2 except replace (Fa + 35)% with (145 - Fury)%)
Add: Ice 2 Back (Same as old Ice2 except replace (Fa + 35)% with (145 - Fury)%)
Add: Bolt 2 Back (Same as old Bolt2 except replace (Fa + 35)% with (145 - Fury)%)
Change: Fire 2 (+19% Oil)
Change: Ice 2 (+19% Slow)
Change: Bolt 2 (+19% Don't Move)
Change: Poison (AoE +1, Vert +1)

Time Mage
Change: Don't Move (AoE +1, Vert +2)

Summoner
Change: All spells CT > 4 take M-EV.
Change: Odin (Dmg_F * MA * 9, Darkness elemental, 30% +Dead, 35 MP, 6 CT)
Change: Lich (Change Y = 65)

Thief
Change: Spellbreaker (+5 MP, MA * WP, 50% RemoveAll: Re-Raise, Haste, Regen, Protect, Shell)

Geomancer
(+20 MPM, +10 PAM, +10 MAM)
Change Hell Ivy to +Stop
Change Carve Model to +Don't Move
Change Local Quake to +Petrify
Change Quicksand to +Zombie
Change Pitfall to +Slow
Change Gusty Wind to +Sleep
Change Kamaitachi to +Don't Act
Change Demon Fire to +Oil
Change Blizzard to +Silence/Blind
Change Sandstorm to +Berserk

Samurai
Change: Koutetsu (+1 Range, -1 AoE, NoSelf)
Change: Masamune (+1 Range Linear, Self)

Ninja
Remove: Doku no Kyoukai
Change: -ton (Now subject to M-EV)
Change: Tsumazuku (+5 MP, SP * WP, -25 CT, No other effects)
Change: Kagesougi (Change 100% blind to Random Add: Blind, Silence, Poison, Don't Move, Don't Act)

Bard
Change: Life Song (+25% Regen)
Change: Nameless Song (Change hit rate 40%, CT = 4, RandomAdd: Reraise, Protect, Shell)

Dancer
Change: Wiznaibus (+25% Poison)
Change: Nameless Dance (Change to RandomAdd: Darkness, Silence, Slow, Oil)


Status:

Oil:
Dispel by all elements except holy/dark.
Weak to all elements except holy/dark.

Dead:
Cancel: Oil, Frog
De-Cancel: Regen, Poison
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Fantactic1316 on May 11, 2012, 12:32:51 AM
Suggestion: Magic Guns +1 MA

Also, as I'm here, not a fan of them becoming only Tier 3 spells. And if they do, they should definitely become subject to M-Ev and Reflect.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: formerdeathcorps on May 11, 2012, 12:41:53 AM
Suggestion: Magic Guns +1 MA

Also, as I'm here, not a fan of them becoming only Tier 3 spells. And if they do, they should definitely become subject to M-Ev and Reflect.

The formula for spell guns is WP * Y * Faith.  This means that +1 MA will do nothing to boost the power of those guns.  Furthermore, if WP comes down to accommodate for using the higher Y values of the Tier 3 spells, the overall spell damage will not change.  The only change is that you won't have Kagesougi or Grand Cross being so broken.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Fantactic1316 on May 11, 2012, 03:20:54 AM
Oh, Magic Guns don't use MA...well, that sorts me out on that one.

Although it makes me like the lower WP idea even less. It might fix Grand Cross, but the Magic Guns would start to look kind of puny to anyone who uses them as an actual weapon. 100% Tier 3 does a bit for that, I suppose.

How about if all three magic guns became 13 WP (which is what the Ice Brand has, and it's kind of the obvious choice for Grand Cross on a Paladin) and the Y values are raised to make up the difference for anyone who uses the melee ability of the guns? (+1 to Blast, +2 to Glacier, +4 to Blaze) Not sure how difficult it might be to change the Y's, and especially to assign 3 different Y's where they used to all be the same, but it sounds good in theory, right? Alternatively the guns could be made to all deal the same damage if different Y values cause trouble. Just raise all of the Y's by 2 to meet in the middle. (Blast gets slightly stronger, Blaze gets slightly weaker, Glacier stays the same.)

In either of those cases, Grand Cross becomes equivalent to the best a Paladin can make of it (assuming they want to absorb it, and...why wouldn't they?) while the guns retain their effectiveness as a melee weapon without having to make any changes to the random spells.

Third alternative, give the guns the regular spell formulas...but then they might be too strong??
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: CT5Holy on May 11, 2012, 03:27:04 AM
Guns use the regular spell formulas, with WP as MA. Their regular attack damage is fine.

I'm pretty sure we can't do it your way, and reducing the WP means we aren't making any changes to "random spells." Also, they need their WP lowered because they simply do too much damage with Kagesougi/Grand Cross.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Shintroy on May 11, 2012, 04:31:22 AM
So how about that weapon that only deals MP damage
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Fantactic1316 on May 11, 2012, 05:10:58 AM
Guns use the regular spell formulas, with WP as MA.

I meant using MA as MA, and the Y values from the Black Magic skillset. You would literally use, for example, Fire 1 with the Blaze Gun (60% of the time) with the formula [Dmg_F(MA*6)] as opposed to the current (according to the Master Guide) [CFa/100 * TFa/100 * Q * WP]; Q = 16 : 60% of the time...

The damage output is similar, but those two look like different formulas to me. Am I missing something?

Their regular attack damage is fine.

Their attack damge is fine...as it is now. If the WP is lowered, so is the damage. Raising the Y values in the current magic gun formula could offset that, while still not giving any additional power to Grand Cross/Kagesougi. If WP drops, but Y goes up by the same amount, then the melee attacks would remain close to their current damage.

And putting them on the actual spell formulas would take WP out of the equation altogether. If that were the case, I'd suggest +1 MA so that units like Archers could still use magic guns effectively if they so desired.

I'm pretty sure we can't do it your way,

Fair enough if you can't. Though I still think it takes the fun out of magic guns.

and reducing the WP means we aren't making any changes to "random spells."

I was just going off of what FDC said.

Blaze Gun (12-13 WP, Change proc to 100% Fire3)
Glacier Gun (11-12 WP, Change proc to 100% Ice3)
Blast Gun (10-11 WP, Change proc to 100% Bolt3)

And changing topics:

So how about that weapon that only deals MP damage

I think Bizen Boat and/or Mage Masher would fit that bill quite nicely (in conjunction with the removal of their Silence procs).
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: dacheat on May 11, 2012, 05:24:42 AM
I don't know how well the AI would use a weapon that did solely MP damage. Proccing Bizen Boat or something similar is probably a better solution.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: formerdeathcorps on May 11, 2012, 01:09:45 PM
So how about that weapon that only deals MP damage

I've already told you this at least a half dozen times in Chat.  This is made obsolete by a weapon that procs 50% Bizen Boat/Spell Absorb/Magic Ruin and will be considered worthless by the AI (and rightly so) because it doesn't do HP damage.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Avalanche on May 11, 2012, 01:54:10 PM

I've already told you this at least a half dozen times in Chat.  This is made obsolete by a weapon that procs 50% Bizen Boat/Spell Absorb/Magic Ruin and will be considered worthless by the AI (and rightly so) because it doesn't do HP damage.

I believe the Ai wouldnt use it ( a mp-dmg weapon) unless they can prevent a spell from going off. But this doesnt makes it useless. Because the fact that the ai cant inflict hp-dmg with weapon attack might be the strenght of such a weapon if you dont want the Ai to waste turns. For instance i had a chemist with talk skill who kept atacking the enemy for crappy dmg instead going for talk skills.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: formerdeathcorps on May 11, 2012, 02:19:45 PM
Maybe I'm more of the offensive player, but I believe that a well-designed team is one where all the favored AI options advance your strategy.  A good AI team is not only well-designed (by the above definition) but also carries multiple strategies on each unit without messing up the AI.  Thus, I'd rather a chemist using talk skill and his weapon because although he can't use both simultaneously (and thus will use talk skill less than the chemist you just described), the ability to freely use one or the other can counter more opponents than a chemist bound to only one role.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: The Damned on May 11, 2012, 11:04:25 PM
(Man, I'd be pretty livid that this didn't post before I left after all the time I spent on it. Good thing I properly backed-up. Not sure if that's the fault of the forum or Firefox or myself. Probably all three.)

I am returned from my real life failures to address more virtual ones.

From what little testing I remember doing, the AI didn't exactly use MP-only damaging weapons well. Of course, it's been a year or two if I even did test....

Still, I think "we" should avoid that, as much as I would actually like to see that tested. Unless Shintroy (or who ever else supports it) can come up with multiple compelling reasons as to why "we" need yet more things to screw mages over when a lot of magic is still kinda dubious, then I too don't really see a point.

whats so bad about confuse?

To elaborate more on what RavenofRazgriz said, it tends to make the AI ignore the Confused unit unless the AI can do 50% or more in one hit, and even that's kinda...iffy sometimes. Given that Confusion also has infinite duration (and traps in ARENA are removed, not that every map had damaging traps to begin with), this would pretty much mean stalemates in quite a few instances, especially for more tanky or less damage-oriented teams.

Collected Changes (updated with the problems Barren pointed out):

Would you mind terribly telling us what exactly these "problems" were? I ask this especially since, as I've noticed, you removed your original post some time during my almost-week-long hiatus given the conspicuous gap Gaignun's posts of April 28th and May 5th.

Regardless, I'll break down my thoughts on this list as I going to do when I initially saw it before/as I left; I stayed my hand given I had stuff to (finally) do (horribly). I'll be breaking it into "Stuff I More or Less Agree With", "Stuff I Could Hesitantly Agree With Even Without Changes", and "Stuff I Outright Reject At Present Unless It Changes". Such concise titles will be the heading of appropriate spoilers. I'll be separating equipment and job (and status) stuff as well.


EQUIPMENT COMMENTS GO HERE







****

JOB (AND STATUS) COMMENTS GO HERE








With all that finally said, given how long I've been typing and the fact that I need to do other things besides proofread this, I'll quickly (read: very tediously) ramble off about 10 or so changes relating to equipment and jobs (& status), each, that I didn't see. These will kinda be in order since they're coming off the top of my head, but they're hardly bound to that, especially since it's not like I (ever) know what I'm talking about with regards to ARENA (and everything else). Outside of the obvious when it comes to suggestions of formerdeathcorps I've rejected, unless I explicitly say that I'm contradicting him, please assume that my suggested changes are being considered in tandem with his:



EQUIPMENT COMMENTS GO HERE

1. Hidden Knife needs to lose Always: Transparent, turn into Ninja version of Defender - I don't care whether it gets Initial: Transparent and a bunch other of crap to ensure that the Ninja can hit like immunity to Blind or Don't Act, but it needs to lose Always: Transparent. At present, Ninja (and far less often, Thief) gets away with being the only class to essentially have access to (innate) Concentrate. This in addition to having access to innate Two Hands and thus free reign both of whatever other weapon they want to smack someone with at 100% and of yet another Support to choose from. It may not be outright broken in and of itself, but I feel like it's been egregious for a while and that no one has mentioned simply because there's been so much other unavoidable BS that happens from a longer distance, much it also coming from Ninja's ARENA skill set.

Anyway, beyond the dubious and obnoxious nature of Always: Transparent, with Hidden Knife also having +1 Speed it both ensures the Ninja gets more unmerited hits and that it completely obviates Sasuke Knife. Seriously, there is literally no reason to ever use Sasuke Knife at present. None. Nada. Zip. That too needs to change. So please just kill two annoying birds with one huge boulder and strip Hidden Knife of its current properties and let it share Defender's immunity to Don't Act, which people can hardly complain is a completely horrible trade-off, given that Item Attribute is miserly mistress.

2. Muramasa needs to not add Faith just because it hits - Faith is a rather powerful status to be adding to people, especially on a weapon that's already rather powerful with more than double-digit WP. Considering you're building around it if you're using it, the risk of it back-firing is fairly minimal, especially with all the damage backing it. As such, it seems like the Faith status should happen, at most, 50% of the time. 33% may be since 25% is perhaps too low, but definitely not 100%.

(Gokuu Rod probably similarly needs to change, if only for parity considering I don't anyone has ever used it given how horrible it still is and counter-intuitive to all the classes that equip it initially. That's probably for the best, though, given how horribly unfair towards most magical classes Innocent still is, but I digress.)

But, yeah, there currently needs to be reason to use Katana besides Muramasa, Bizen Boat (fine), Asura (my comment about formerdeathcorp's Kotetsu), Chirijiraden and, maybe, Masamune. Doing this will slightly help, though admittedly the "problem" otherwise lies with the other Katana and I'm not sure how to fix any of those.

3. Either (most) Guns need be Forced Two Hands or Archers need to lose Shields innately - Given my choice between the two, I lean towards the former given the latter kinda screws with crossbows as well, though given that I agree with most of formerdeathcorps's changes for Crossbows, that might not be such a bit deal since they go a long way towards making those more usable. Still, these options aren't mutually exclusive.

4. Platina Dagger needs to trigger Climhazzard slighty less - My view of this maybe somewhat skewed due to Hidden Knife, but honestly, it seems like Climhazzard would be more fair triggering only 33% of the time despite the weapon's power given that a) the proc is unavoidable, b) the other weapon used is usually more powerful since almost no one ever uses this without Two Swords and c) the Climhazzard's damage depends more on the user's teammates than the meager WP holding its normal damage back, Ninja's speed causing Ninja to charge ahead aside. Not really a huge change, though don't think it needs one.

5. Main Gauche can probably stand to lose 1 WP and 5% W-EV - Self-explanatory given that 40% W-EV seems pretty damn ridiculous and that there's really no reason to use any of the other Knives/Daggers that can't be used with Two Swords at present. Formerdeathcorps' (and others') proposed change to combine Assassin Dagger & Throwing Dagger takes care of those two and this would go a decent way towards making the other two or three none-Two-Swords Daggers more usable.

6. Diversify the "Head-bands" more please - Decrease Ribbon's HP to 60 and decrease Barrete's HP to 70 while letting it block Sleep given that a) Ribbon doesn't and b) Confusion & Chicken don't exist anymore. I really can't remember the last time I ever saw anyone use Barette or Cachusha even before they became Monk-exclusive. Perhaps let Cachusha keep its 80 HP, lose a bit of its 80 MP and gain immunity to Undead, Charm, Innocent & Faith (basically sharing Item Attribute with Crystal Armor) since it honestly needs to block something if the other two block so much; meanwhile Ribbon loses both its immunities to Undead and Charm to stop the aforementioned monopoly of serious status.

7. Bow Gun becomes Burning Bow or Debilitator, a Crossbow that adds Oil - I'm not sure if Oil should be added 50% of the time. However, it seems like it should be at least 33% of the time, especially given that its dispersed on what hit and that I'm not asking for Bow Gun's WP to be increased. Not sure what you're going to do with Short Edge, but no one's ever really used that (well), especially once Hidden Knife became busted.

8. Do...something with Salty Rage - Add Initial: Reraise or Block: Poison & Blind or a ridiculous around of P-EV or...something in addition to its Initial: Berserk. I honestly don't care. All I know is that at present there is still no reason to use this and there hardly was in the first place, at least without Concentrate. Alternately, you could just kill it and do something else with its spot, which would probably a lot more worthwhile. I'd probably another Absorbing accessory, but I need more time to think about this....

9. If Reflect Ring is to Block Berserk, then Defense Ring should Block Silence instead of Berserk - Given formerdeathcorps suggested two more Berserk-blocking accessory and that Defense Ring still sucks, this seems for the best. It gives mages another Silence-blocking accessory that doesn't outright obviate Magic Ring yet it is still usable, especially since it gives them P-EV and M-EV as well, which they normally have to outright eschew to block Silence. Please do this.

10. Let 108 Gems Block Oil instead of Blood Suck - Given that I'm kinda rattling these off the top of my head, that Blood Suck doesn't exist anymore and that no accessory currently blocks Oil...yeah. It's the least you can do considering pretty much no one has used it ever since ARENA started.


JOB COMMENTS GO HERE

1. Please make at least Raise 2 Holy Element - That way Cursed Ring, Consecration and Seal Evil can actually be worth using. I would suggest doing the same with Raise as well and slightly lowering the success rate of both now that they can be boosted with things such as Healing Staff or the aforementioned 108 Gems (or Faith Rod or formerdeathcorps' proposed Holy March). As also mentioned earlier in this thread (for different reasons), yes, this kinda screws over the two pieces of Holy-blocking equipment, but those are honestly used so rarely as to not really matter.

2. Please make something else Water Element - It was a bit...jarring to come back after like three or so months and see that Water is still horribly underrepresented in terms of being able to use it as an attack as well to absorb it. While I'm yet trying to work out absorption of it, at the very least you could make strengthening of it worthwhile, especially when at least one of the Bios could easily become Water or Earth Dragon easily could become that "Big Wave" I was suggesting....

3. Give Poison to Oracle & Beguile to Wizard - You can potentially take formerdeathcorps' advice alongside this and also expand Poison's AoE. However, I would prefer they be mutually exclusive/competing ideas considering the amount of other changes going on/being suggested. Of course, given the amount of changes going on, perhaps it's best if Poison stays with Wizard for now just to see the new AoE works. If it doesn't (or "you" don't want to consider that change at all), then please consider this one. I honestly feel like they would better served in each other's jobs. Well, at least Poison would and it would kinda stupid for Poison and Beguile to be in the same set, so....

4. Make Bad Luck Persevering - This was suggested by formerdeathcorps a bit ago and I agreed with it, which is why I'm surprised he didn't bring it up in his list above, but whatever. Might want to up the CT to 5 if that's the case, though. Not sure.

5. Make Demi 2 less damaging in exchange for being more usable - Demi 2 should perhaps at most do 49% considering that I'm slightly merciful if people want to use Light Robes and P Bags and not suffer instant death (like Cursed Ring units against the much more frequent Raise 2 currently have to). Regardless, making it deal 50% or less in exchange for giving it CT of 4 or 5, MP of 32, and changing its X to at least 70% seems like it would get it much more use.

6. Combine Insult and Solution? - Something else that formerdeathcorps had brought up a bit ago and that I agreed with given the computer's lack of use of Innocent status as it is. However, that's perhaps not a bad thing given that there's only one item that blocks against Innocent at present and that's freaking armor, which is not something that Mages would be wearing in most instances. As such, I suggest a solution...to Solution. Change it into "Hush" and just have it add Silence. Give it Insult's current hit-rate while Insult gets Solution's current hit rate; I would readily accept Insult's X becoming 40 given Berserk's infinite duration and denial of Reactions and certain Movements, though in that case, I would ask that Blackmail (or Persuade) be made slightly more accurate in return.

(Preach can stay as is for now, if only because formerdeathcorps said he wanted to test something and I have no idea what the hell he's getting at. Same goes for Heretic.)

7. Slightly weaken Auto Potion - Although people tend to still be conflicted over what to do with Hi-Potion and X-Potion, I think that I've seen pretty much everyone agree that Auto Potion heals a bit too much. Can we just go back to it healing vanilla Hi-Potion levels of damage and thus only restoring 70 HP? Did "we" already try that? I honestly can't remember, but we should perhaps try again.

8. Slightly up Cyclops and Slyph's status procs - ...Cyclops is Holy now? Hunh. I...forgot? Or did I even know? That certainly makes me hold back on suggestion which might have spoiled somomething.... ...Regardless, it and Silf can probably stand to have their procs go up to about 33%, especially if you decide to use formerdeathcorps suggestion about Odin.

9. Slightly lower Bizen Boat and Murasame's X - They seem like regularly they deal a bit too much MP damage or heal a bit too much HP, especially since they do so instantly and, in the case of Bizen Boat (or Undead confronted with Murasame), aren't subject to M-EV. While I don't think Bizen Boat should become subject to M-EV, it could probably stand to become MA*8 rather easily; similarly, Murasame can probably stand to become MA*9. This is pretty low on the list, though.

10. Esuna and Stigma Magic should no longer cure Charm - As someone who likes status, it's really frustrating seeing a unit that is otherwise rightly suspectible to Charm often instantly break its own Charm status "accidentally" by using either of the aforementioned abilities on itself. That they are both multi-target, basically 100% accurate and, in the case of Stigma Magic, instant, just poor salt over those wounds. If you have to lessen Charm's duration slightly because of this, then I would understand. However, there's more than enough ways to block Charm already available without screwing it over further by making it trivialized by two really common techniques. If you feel like there should be an ability that gets rid of Charm (besides Refute) without damage, then I guess you could make it so Squire's Heal gets rid of it (though then I'd argue it shouldn't be self-targeting, which ultimately weakens it) or, better yet, just make a new ability to do. (Give it to, what, Paladin?)


Ugh. My hands. My use of hours. My relative lack of sleep. I'll try to make more formal suggestions when I'm slightly less useless than I am now.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Gaignun on May 12, 2012, 04:08:53 AM
Quote from: The Damned
Please make at least Raise 2 Holy Element

Would this make Raise 2 fail to resurrect dead units that null Holy?   If so, holy-nulling equipment will be used much less frequently (which is a shame, as Small Mantle will get a lot better if it can help its wearer evade ninjutsu and summon magic).  How did 1.3 prevent Phoenix Downs from killing undead units?  Is there a passive modifier we can apply to reduce healing/resurrection damage here?

I like most of your suggestions, although I'm more inclined to remove Init: Berserk from all equipment and treat the status as a strictly negative, healable one.  Maybe that's too boring.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on May 12, 2012, 04:13:42 AM
How about if all three magic guns became 13 WP (which is what the Ice Brand has, and it's kind of the obvious choice for Grand Cross on a Paladin) and the Y values are raised to make up the difference for anyone who uses the melee ability of the guns?

I think there's something else you're not realizing here - the reason their WP is offset as it is now and proposed to be 13/12/11 is because they don't cast the Level 3 Spell's Q value as set in the Battle Mechanics Guide by Aerostar (if you look there), but they cast the physical Level 3 spells from the Wizard's skillset.  In this case, they cast the Arena-versions of Fire, Ice, Bolt, meaning the Spell's Y values being changed aren't options.  You'd be upsetting the balance of the entire Wizard skillset unnecessarily.  13/12/11 at 100% Tier 3 Spell proc is the same output in terms of the Attack command as now roughly, maybe a bit better, but that's not a big deal because Magic Guns aren't the best for Attack damage anyway.  It is the best overall fix for maintaining the status quo and upsetting as little of the overall balance as possible while fixing the immediate problems.

So how about that weapon that only deals MP damage

There's already 3 weapons slated to being added that are strictly better than this in every way while still damaging MP

POST

@19%: The default hit rate for procs in FFT is 19%, not 25%.

@Mantles: Right now, the max evasion a Mantle can give is 24.  The Mantles FDC, myself, FFM, and some others worked out only cap at 30.  It is not very much "higher" at all, as you max evasion stack is only maybe 2-3% higher in the long run due to how evasion stacks work, it was just made more rounded and generally less awful considering every Accessory is a high-power item, and all the current Arena mantles... erm... suck, outside of the current Dracula Mantle, which is still terribly underpowered compared to other Accessories.

@Cheer Up: It's being removed because it's awful.

@Nurse: Yeah, it would still heal 33% HP.

@Blizzard: It means it adds both, if possible.

@Wild Blow: This skill makes any weapon into an Axe attack, basically.  Also, I hope you realize the problem solely resides with the "troublesome" Kagesougi is the 17 WP Blaze Gun that this set of changes addresses.  The skill is pretty awful otherwise.

@Concentrate: Concentrate sucks. Your average enemy unit has 15-20% Evasion at best, resulting in a net increase of 15-20% physical damage.  What adds even MORE Physical damage than that?  Attack UP.  Evasion in Arena is actually really shitty in the long term (something this update is looking to address with better Shields/Mantles, more M-EV affected skills, etc.), and all Concentrate does is give non-Ninjas/Thieves some options for cracking bulky Main Gauche users at the cost of their long-term DPS v everyone else who barely has any evasion to begin with.  The reality is, Concentrate is not that good when you're paying 650 JP after Squire overhead and your Support slot to use it.  It's also worth remembering that Blind in Arena overrides Concentrate (and Transparent) on top from being generally ridiculous and highly crippling to Attack-focused units and is something any evasion-dedicated team should be making use of anyway.

@Transfusion: You do realize Transfusion is generally worthless outside of fringe users and weaker than Murasame in almost every way even when in the hands of said fringe users, right?

@Execute: It still only works on Critical HP units.  This actually will take a lot of thought as to why this change was devised and I don't intend to spill the beans.  Once you figure out what it is, you will totally be like "FUCKING BRILLIANT."  But don't spoil it, let everyone else have the satisfaction of figuring it out for themselves too. :)

@Geomancy: The point of this set of updates is to make Geomancy overall better in the following update, but also remove the random bits where Geomancy can just score 4 OHKOs through Petrify on like half the maps in the game.  Current Geomancy sucks.  The buffs to general M-EV options, the addition to M-EV to Ninjitsu, and the buffing of its procs should hopefully resolve this.  As for your question to the stat buffs, it translates into Geomancer getting 1 more PA and MA in addition to a noticeable sum of MP.  It's also supposed to get 1 Jump, but FDC forgot.

@Bards/Dancers: Those songs still add their HP/MP, they just add those statuses on top of what they already did, and they're the two performing skills the AI loves to abuse anyway, so AI priority isn't affected.  The Regen/Poison are just small bonuses to make their long term use better, and in Wiznaibus' case allow it to be used without being 100% crippled by Auto Potion.  Fun fact: Another reason for these procs is to make Miming them better.  Oftentimes when we talk changes, we tend to (or at least I tend to try to push towards) changes that result in cool teams, such as Mime teams, or teams that can make use of the Execute change, etc.  Cool fringe teams keep the game fun, and it's very clear Arena has evolved long past the times of Mimes with Life Song or Dancers with Wiznaibus winning everything.

@Poison: Again, that was considered, and it's the point.  Poison's infinite duration allows it to suppress sandbagging from Phoenix Down and Wish, giving it an actual role in Arena as a powerful anti-sandbag status instead of something that's just there to annoy you sometimes.  You know, something you actually need to consider when making a team - if you rely on only Phoenix Down or Wish to revive your units, you better bring Burn Heal Antidote, or some way for those units to ensure Poison doesn't re-kill them right off.  It becomes a powerful tool for silencing rez loops and justifies the AI priority.  Regen mostly gets this privilege for parity reasons, and because it makes for more cool reasons to use Regen on those same Phoenix Down and Wish loving teams - their critical units can potentially get themselves out of Critical through a pre-death Regen and Move-HP UP, and Regen doubles as the best weapon against Poison.  In the end, both Statuses become leagues better and boring/lengthy rez-loop battles have a status that can silence them easily.

@Hidden Knife: See - Concentrate.  Consider it a class perk - Evasion is mostly negligible, and this allows Ninjas / Two Swords users to break bulky Main Gauche healers (sup DERP).  Sasuke Knife does kinda suck, but that's a matter for Sasuke Knife, not Hidden Knife.

@Muramasa: People don't even USE this goddamn thing anymore... :|

@Magic Guns: Again, you do realize the only problem is coming from Blaze Gun's 17 WP which is very clearly getting fixed, right?

@Bow Gun: I forgot this earlier.  It procs the Armor Break ability at 50%... which with a Bow Gun, has maybe a 30% chance of actually hitting.  .5*.3=.15%, less chance of breaking the target's armor than a weapon that casts Shellbust Stab at the default 19% proc rate, and it doesn't deal damage until subsequent hits, which in subsequent hits isn't a big deal since the base WP is still shit and can't be boosted by Two Hands or Two Swords.

@Salty Rage: Concentrate's coming back, sooo...

@Raise 2: The formula doesn't accept Elements, and making Cursed Ring immediately obviate every single primary weakness that comes with being Undead is a terrible idea.  If you pay more attention to the changes listed here, Undead teams got a TON of buffs.  They're just not the ones you'd expect.

@Water: Elements get unequal representation.  Lack of parity is what makes competitive games flow.  You also miss the advantage to Water not having too much representation - most enemies won't bother to do anything to block it.  Compare this to Fire or Dark, two of the most powerful Elements - but guess what, almost everyone wears friggin' Black Costumes to block them.

@Light Robe/P Bag: Really, the Weak: Dark shit on those could easily be dropped.  It's a completely pointless debuff as those items are generally meager in use.  Otherwise, as for the oneshot kill - "thems the breaks", risk v reward. If it's gonna be a risk, make it a real risk, don't weaken Demi 2 for the sake of giving them a meager infinitesimal chance of living with 1 HP.

Insult+Solution: Dear god no.  It's of note that (assuming Solution is flagged correctly, I don't have a patched Arena to look), the AI WILL use Solution, just not proactively.  It will use it as an idle-turn sometimes, but mainly to block an incoming spell.  It treats Faith the same way, and currently these two skills are the only ways to get Faith and Innocent without strings attached, so there's no reason to touch them if you know how the AI actually prioritizes their use.

@Auto-Potion: There's nothing really wrong with the 80 HP heal, though.  The only time it nulls damage out entirely is when your team has shit for offensive capabilities.  This actually brings me to the big issue I have with your grievance list and a big problem I had with Arena in general when I started bothering to give a shit about it - the approach to handling every problem is NERF NERF NERF, and the nerfing is almost always going way too far.  This is why a team like Y U SO DERP was able to (and in large is still able to) essentially terrorize Arena despite using a meager amount of otherwise garbage skills that are either so weak they CAN'T be nerfed or fine in the hands of literally everyone else.   Everything got nerfed way too far down, and constantly nerfing everything down just leads to making things even easier.  Since I've been pushing for Arena changes, you can probably notice the opposite trend if you thumb through the changelogs - while things that direly needed to get nerfed (Chirjiraden that one time, Blaze Gun this time, etc.) got nerfed - the main trend is to not weaken the strong, but to empower the weak.  You can see this general trend in this set of changes too, the weaker skills, items, and classes were for the most part buffed in order to solve balance issues, instead of directly addressing the issue with what would likely be an over-nerfing.  There is an art to realizing how to address problems from the side instead of the front, so to speak.





@FDC: Geomancer needs its +1 Jump noted.  There was something else I was going to mention, but I forgot in replying to The Damned's TL;DR, so I'll post it later.  EDIT: I remembered one of the things.  Holy should be subject to M-EV, that was also something we discussed before and would serve as a small nerf that would flow well with the rest of the changes upcoming. I still say we need to consider letting Echo Grass cure Berserk as well.  It needs some means of being cured, similar to the Undead status.  It's a powerful, debilitating status that only the Item skillset can cure and that can sometimes be used as a pseudo-buff or team building core otherwise, and with it becoming more prevalent as a negative status as well as a positive one, it should have one viable means of being healed outside of Refute.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: The Damned on May 12, 2012, 06:55:53 AM
(Sigh. I proofread all of that thrice and I notice at least one more typo. Ugh....)

Oh hey, Raven. Good to see you're still around. Why must you make me multi-quote at you first time I see you again, though?

Would this make Raise 2 fail to resurrect dead units that null Holy?   If so, holy-nulling equipment will be used much less frequently (which is a shame, as Small Mantle will get a lot better if it can help its wearer evade ninjutsu and summon magic).  How did 1.3 prevent Phoenix Downs from killing undead units?  Is there a passive modifier we can apply to reduce healing/resurrection damage here?

Yeah, it would unfortunately mean that Small Mantle (and Diamond Shield) would block Raise 2, though like I said, I've thought that Cancel: Earth & Holy was...underwhelming and I wouldn't mind it changing to something else. You make a good point about Small Mantle, though.

I like most of your suggestions, although I'm more inclined to remove Init: Berserk from all equipment and treat the status as a strictly negative, healable one.  Maybe that's too boring.

Oh, I'd be fine with Initial: Berserk being removed too. Salty Rage sucks. It just sucks slightly less with Concentrate around.

POSTERS TOAST POSTS.

1. 19%: Oh, right. I forgot about that discovery.

2. Mantles: Meh. If you guys are confident it wouldn't be a problem, then I can get behind since I agreed that mantles need a boost.

3. Cheer Up: Just because it's awful? Okay....

4. Nurse: Good to know.

5. Blizzard: Okay, cool.

6. Wild Blow: If you say so. I really don't see why it needs to unevadable, though.

7. Concentrate: Is it really "equal" to 15-20% more damage if you would utterly miss those times with Concentrate? Also, it's not like it's difficult to block Blind, especially when it comes universally available with Initial: Reraise. However, as you know I've admittedly never liked Concentrate and it's not nearly as bad as it would be as an innate (on anything other than Mime and even then it's iffy).

8. Transfusion: Considering how Murasame goes off MA, I don't see how it utterly outstrips Transfusion on units that don't need to worry about MA since its solely dependent upon max HP. I could perhaps understand halving the MP cost to 3, but getting rid of all together seems a bit much. Not that it will break anything. I'm just not sure it's necessary, though as you can see, I argue that Murasame can stand to be slightly weakened as it is.

9. Execute: Oh, so it's still restricted to Critical-only people? Then I have no problem with that change. As for why it does 40% HP now, I suppose I can guess, but considering it was almost never used before and I don't feel like doing math right now since I have a bunch of stuff I still need to type up, I suppose I'll just have to ponder it.

10. Geomancy: Oh, I understand all that, though it's nice to have knowledge of what the stats are, including the missing Jump +1. I just think "we" should probably get rid of Petrify in Geomancy in general and avoid Stop on the extremely common Hell Ivy, if only because of Counter Flood. It certainly helps that Local Quake is indeed less common than Carve Model--though it's still moderately common--and that it's actually Earth element, meaning it can be "Guarded" against by Float, but I don't see why it should stick around at all when there's other, less egregious negative status to use. I concur that Elemental has been weakened, but I don't think it's quite as weak as some of these changes make it seem to be, especially when you're boosting the stats of Geomancer itself (again).

11. Bard/Dancers: Oh, so Life Song and Wiznaibus still do their restoration and damage too? Things like that really need to be noted. If that's the case, then I suppose I'm fine with those. I still can't say I much agree the suggestions for Nameless Song due to Reraise or Nameless Dance due to Slow's priority to the AI.

12. Poison: Oh, I realized that when I said the infinite duration thing. It just rubbed me the wrong way. The way you explain it makes it seem a lot more palatable though, even if I don't really want Chemist to gain yet more power. Well, that and all of the equipment that blocks Poison, including the Always: Regen ones technically, are presently of dubious quality sans maybe Diamond Armor.

13. Hidden Knife: Meh. I suppose the "class perk" bugs me when Ninja already gets so much else between innate Two Swords and Ninjutsu currently being unavoidable. Perhaps with Ninjutsu becoming subject to M-EV and things with M-EV (that aren't Shields) becoming a worth a damn, my view of that will soften. I'll still probably consider it obnoxious given my loathing of Concentrate, though. But, yeah, Sasuke Knife's problems are largely its own. Still....

14. Muramasa: I'm aware of that. It still probably needs to change though.

15. Magic Guns: Uh, yes? What exactly is this in response to that you thought I didn't realize that? The shield comment? Or...?

16. Bow Gun: Oh, so it procs Shellbust Stab rather than just Armor Break from Archer like I thought it did? In a way that makes me dislike it even more. I'm obviously missing why Bow Gun would only have a 30% chance of hitting as well? Are we assuming Arrow Guard being ubiquitous despite your "most teams only have 15%-20% P-EV" comment to advocate Concentrate coming back? I ask that not because they're mutually exclusive; I just want to be sure.

17. Salty Rage: As I said above to Gaignun, I would still rather it die as is, at least with the AI's current treatment of Berserk (even if Stigma Magic and Esuna indeed no longer cure it despite what the Master Guide says).

18. Raise 2: Oh, right. I forgot that formula doesn't take elements. Damn. Oh well. As for Undead being buffed implicitly, I'm not seeing much at present besides their being immune to Execute (still) and to the new Throwing Knife's secondary effect. I'm not really sure what status interactions ARENA has kept if that's what you're getting at.

19. Water: I understand that. I'm not asking for parity in representation with any of the other elements. I am literally only asking Water to get one more absorbing-equipment so that you can finally build Water-Absorb teams since you've never been able since ARENA started and more attacking representation in one or two more abilities or weapons. That's it.

As it stands now, despite its scarcity supposedly allowing for it to be the theoretical lurking scourge of the elemental world, it has only one good weapon to its name in Whale Whisker since no one bothers with Coral Sword since Water is literally the only element that can't currently be used with Grand Cross because the only absorb is a piece of Clothing. Similarly, Aspergillum doesn't ever get to strengthen anything besides Suiton (if that ever gets used) since there basically is nothing else to strengthen: {Suiton, Leviathan, Water Ball, Quicksand}. (EDIT: I just realized that Aspergillum could perhaps make decent use of Grand cross, if only on Ninja and Geomancer.)

Water has only four whole skills to its name, two of which can't even be done on command and none of which can be AoE Absorbed like literally every other element because Leviathan only hits enemies and, again, Grand Cross isn't worth abusing with Water as it is right now since there's nothing to absorb it. Yet Water is in a three-way tie for second place when it comes to elements outright get nulled the most with Wind (which has 7 skills, all of which are actually usable even if three of them are also Geomancy) and Holy (which is obviously usable). It actually probably ends up more likely to blocked than Holy presently due to the current Vanish Mantle being a lot more usable than the current Small Mantle in addition Magic Ring seeing a lot less use. As it is, Water isn't the "secret killer" you're making out to be and that it should be. It sucks and generally isn't worth using except as part of a mere variation of an independent powerful set of skills (Ninjutsu), which doesn't prove anything in its favor considering how many people still only use Meiton.

20. Light Robe/P Bag: You're right. Fuck mercy. 50% HP damage Demi 2 it is.

21. Insult + Solution: I know I wrote a lot, but you, uh, seemed to have missed the part shortly thereafter where I concluded/realized that mixing the two was indeed a terrible idea. If the AI actually uses Solution, then fine. No need to change it. I have little problem with leaving it be at present if the AI actually will use it (even if it's still probably largely inferior to Thief's Heretic from what you're saying).

22. Auto Potion: So noted, even if I personally didn't think it was huge deal, at least compared to the people were thinking about the other, active potions. Just figured I would comment on it since I blabbing about everything else.

23. Nerfing: As for that, well, it's not like I don't realize that nerfing things just makes it so that something else essentially becomes "top tier" simply because something else always ends up on top. I just prefer to weaken things and build from there if necessary rather than overall strength a bunch of things at once and walk into a potentially greater clusterfuck--for lack of a better word since I loathe "quagmire"--that can be more difficult to pinpoint the worsened issue and would require some nerfing anyway. And it's not like I'm against strengthening things, otherwise I would have said that I outright rejected much of formerdeathcorps' lists for the things that weren't obviously problems like Blaze Gun. So I will concede that you have a point here, as usually do, but I don't much agree with it in this instance.


All that finally said, I've three (technically 4) equipment related suggestions:

1. Hidden Knife vs. Sasuke Knife: So, given what Raven said, I suppose I can begrudgingly let Hidden Knife keep its Always: Transparent since it's not like Hidden Knife itself does that much damage (though that was never the point). However, I would humbly request that it lose its Speed +1, especially since it can be used with Two Swords (as it "should" be). That let Sasuke Knife become the sole Ninja Blade(/Knife/Sword/Whatever) that had a speed boost. It would probably need more than that, but I'm not sure how many Item Attributes you have left and Sasuke Knife would still be sharing one with Sprint Shoes when it comes to even just Speed +1, so....

Not-So-Ninja EDIT: It just occurred to me (while properly proofreading this mess of a post) after I woke up that the "best" solution to this may just be to treat Sasuke Knife like the big Knife it is. As such, I would move for indeed taking away the Speed +1 from Hidden Knife and giving Sasuke Knife Speed +1 and Move +1. This would mean that Sprint Shoes also had Speed +1 and Move +1, but considering that almost no one is going to use those things as they are now, that's basically a bonus. Sasuke Knife could perhaps also use a bit more W-EV or even more point of WP as well.

2. Turn 108 Gems into Coral Ring: As I ranted at Raven above, there is seriously no excuse for Water to still be the only element that you can't make an absorption team out of...though you can make one that nullifies both it and Wind completely for some reason. (Earth and Holy too now that I think about and all four if you're feeling "adventurous".)

So, let it Absorb: Water and Block: Oil, Poison and Frog given that something also needs to block Oil and Absorbing Water isn't nearly as powerful as Strengthening every element, so this is actually weaker/less radical than the 108 Gems solution I was proposing, especially since it doesn't block Undead anymore.

3. Let Salty Rage Strengthen All Elements Alongside Other "Fun" Things: While I'd much rather get rid of damage boost that Salty Rage tries and fails to get with Initial: Berserk because it's ultimately too limiting in its options, adding Strengthen All Elements to it isn't necessarily mutually exclusive. However, I'd much rather Initial: Berserk die as a whole, especially since it doesn't interest anything interesting a strategy (unless you count handicaps interesting, in which there's this Stone Gun I'd like to sell you...).

As such, I'd say make somewhat a mix between Chantage and the current 108 Gems (that no one uses) and give it the properties of Initial: Regen, Block: Poison & Oil and Strengthen All Elements. I'm pretty sure we'll need more things to block Poison that aren't dubious if it's going to be an infinite duration status that doesn't go away even upon dying and is going to be added more things. We just need something else to block Oil so there's a choice since that will be more widespread than the Undead that 108 Gems lost (and N-Kai Armlet is proposed to have). Initial: Regen, even surviving past Dead and not being able to gotten rid of with Poison, shouldn't be too annoying while at the same time it should actually be useful. Same with Strengthen All elements.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Shintroy on May 13, 2012, 04:39:35 AM
Lemme know when there's a MP only damaging weapon thnx
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Shade on May 13, 2012, 03:34:16 PM
16. Bow Gun: Oh, so it procs Shellbust Stab rather than just Armor Break from Archer like I thought it did? In a way that makes me dislike it even more. I'm obviously missing why Bow Gun would only have a 30% chance of hitting as well? Are we assuming Arrow Guard being ubiquitous despite your "most teams only have 15%-20% P-EV" comment to advocate Concentrate coming back? I ask that not because they're mutually exclusive; I just want to be sure.

I think he meant that chance to hit with armor break would be smaller then 19% percent. Considering that armor break is % based skill. Bow gun would be actually pretty badass to use afterwards.

About 19%, here's legit question, why not just change proc chance to 25%? I mean this would boost elements and a lot other skills.

Transfusion
Why does it need mp cost, it already costs hp?

Poison
Kinda cool status. Bad thing about it is that it will just help raise 2, a skill that I think should just die at this point.

Dia vs ninjutsu ton's(Meiton etc.)
Dia is a skill that has basically just different damage modifiers then ton's, so why does Dia have lower Y then ton's? I personally would have Dia and ton's with 9-8 Y so they would not make too little amount of damage, and not too high.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Fantactic1316 on May 13, 2012, 03:48:43 PM
Suggestion: Take the vert off of Masamune and give it to Haste. Masamune would be significantly less broken at zero vert and Haste would look a bit more appealing by comparison if it had at least 1 vert.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on May 13, 2012, 04:44:56 PM
Lemme know when there's a MP only damaging weapon thnx

Lol I forgot to reply to this.

We're adding 3 STRICTLY BETTER WEAPONS, we went over this in IRC.

POST.

@Wild Blow: It trades being evadable with having highly unreliable damage output.  It should have a noticeable MP cost so that it's not easily spammed but otherwise, that's the main reason.

@Transfusion: A lot more units have good MA than good HP.  Good MA is also more likely to win a game than good HP on average.  You also forget that Transfusion already has a cost in HP that requires both Regen and Move-HP UP to be stacked together to offset since it doesn't heal the caster, another disadvantage it has against Murasame.  It is already far more build-dependent than Murasame, and its only real bonus is being ally-only targeted, which is only meagerly useful.  Even if you weaken Murasame, it is still far better and generally more usable than Transfusion.  Removing the MP cost from Transfusion makes it a bit more level to Murasame (if only a tiny bit, Murasame is still leagues better for the most part) and lets Paladins use it with MP-screwing their other skills due to their low MP totals.

@Geomancy: The stats of Geomancer are irrelevant because the best Geomancy users aren't Geomancers, they're Bards/Dancers.  The stats on Geomancer handle the class not sucking but don't do anything about the skillset.

@Nameless Song: Technically removing Haste makes it weaker, because Haste is still one of the best buffs to get from it.  The reason Haste is removed is to stop the AI from doing NOTHING BUT Nameless Song, which is how it currently operates.  And when the AI is shitting both Haste and Reraise onto people like candy... those teams still don't win.  Partially because the asshole with Nameless Song won't stop singing, but still.  You highly overrate this one.  Reraise becomes more common, but the lack of Hasting makes this a dubious benefit.  The main benefit will be Nameless Song using teams will actually have units that can be more than Nameless Song bots.

@Poison: I say "Antidote" as a joke. -.-  Chemist actually gets weaker from this, because now you'll need to spend even more JP on the Item skillset itself to get Antidote, forego Antidote, or forego something else, and if you DO get Antidote, you get to deal with the AI randomly throwing Antidotes when it should be doing other stuff.  If anything, the Esuna / Stigma Magic / Regen users are the ones who gain the most here, because they can handle the threat without additional investment or risky AI derps.

@Magic Guns: You merely proposed a huge pile of debuffs to Magic Guns beyond the WP decrements, when it wasn't Magic Guns that were even the issue, merely an interaction between one Gun and one skill that's fixed by a simple WP and proc adjustment.  If anything, the other uses of Magic Guns need buffs if anything - which is the other thing the 100% Tier 3 + 13-12-11 WP setup does, buffs their far weaker uses while making their one problematic one about on par with other weapons.

@Bow Gun: No... I mean a 50% Armor Break proc has a lower net chance to hit the target than a 19% Shellbust Stab proc because Armor Break with a Bow Gun has a terrible hit rate.  It's essentially a 15-20% proc after you compute Armor Break's hit rate, that then becomes a Double Shot weapon afterward, which isn't a big deal due to Bow Gun's low WP.

@Undead: Not talking about status interactions, nope.

@Nerfing: I'm just pointing out back when I decided to give Arena a look over (1.32ish?), it was a quagmire of things in the opposite direction - everything sucked, and I was able to make an essentially unbeatable team out of what were otherwise the worst items and abilities in Arena.  DERP is still really high up there in part because I'm not a fucking idiot and it abuses Speed ties, interactions, has tons of contingency plans, etc., but each version makes it harder and harder for teams like that to win v the entire field - because the entire field is becoming less and less of a quagmire of shit in terms of both teams and classes/equipment.  In a PVP game like Arena, one of the most important things is to allow a large number of strategies either competitive validity or the illusion of competitive validity, which are both much more easily obtained by pulling the bottom up than by pulling the top down, so to speak.  The latter is honestly what's most prone to making a 1-strategy metagame.


All that finally said, I've three (technically 4) equipment related suggestions:

@Sprint Shoes: +1 Move +1 Speed oh god no.  For someone who likes to nerfstick so much, you must realize how ridiculous that is.

About 19%, here's legit question, why not just change proc chance to 25%? I mean this would boost elements and a lot other skills.
 

Most procs are 25% now if you thumb through the Master Guide.  Note it's usually only the best-of-the-best procs like Holy that still fall in at 19%. 

Dia vs ninjutsu ton's(Meiton etc.)
Dia is a skill that has basically just different damage modifiers then ton's, so why does Dia have lower Y then ton's? I personally would have Dia and ton's with 9-8 Y so they would not make too little amount of damage, and not too high.

It's the difference in magic users vs physical users mostly.  MA stacks higher than PA naturally due to how their abilities work (which is why MA*WP weapons generally have slightly lower WP than PA*WP ones), so MA*6*Faith is going to be better than PA*6*Faith always simply because the MA version can do more damage.  Though, it's more because the instant, single-target damage like Ninjitsu just isn't what mages do.  Dia serves its own purpose (especially with being moved into the Priest's skillset) by being a magician's means of anti-sandbag and a source of Blind that can greatly increase their lifespan against melee units, but it's not equal to Ninjitsu because it's not meant to serve the same purpose.  Intentional lack of parity.  Same reason a spell like Comet only does 100 damage.

Suggestion: Take the vert off of Masamune and give it to Haste. Masamune would be significantly less broken at zero vert and Haste would look a bit more appealing by comparison if it had at least 1 vert.

Giving some vert to the Haste spells is more than reasonable.  They're not terrible, but they're not super leet awesome.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Avalanche on May 13, 2012, 05:51:57 PM
i just want to share my concern with ninjitsu spells like fuiton  and meiton.

I realy disslike an instant very high dmg/recovery spell that even allows a decend amount of evasion/Hp.

Plus i disslike the symbiosis with innocence
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Pierce on May 13, 2012, 07:27:38 PM
I'm not a big fan of Nurse adding Regen instead of healing. Nor am I a fan of Life Song adding Regen. At the moment with Masamune being so popular and so frequently used by the AI, Regen is quite common. Yes I know Masamune is seeing a nerf, but that won't stop it from still being used somewhat frequently (Instant 100% Haste and Regen, why not?). Adding 2 more skills that add Regen is just going to make it annoyingly common.
Also, it's not like Nurse needs a change right now. And life song heals less than 60HP per turn (assuming the song goes off twice before the unit acts) and the unit is forced to be performing in that time, losing their evasion.

I'm also not really a big fan of Weak:Element from shields. I mean c'mon, it's a shield, it should really only be helping you, not potentially hurting you.

Is it possible that Esuna gets its JP cost dropped to 250? I know people have been saying they would like to see more status healing instead of relying on Raise2 to heal the unit (I think it was FDC that said this). Dropping the JP cost by 30 makes it an even 250 and makes it an easier addition to a team.

Did someone say Concentrate is coming back? Why... there's already Transparent...

These are just my two cents.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Fantactic1316 on May 13, 2012, 07:49:30 PM
Did someone say Concentrate is coming back? Why... there's already Transparent...

Ew, I hope not. In addition to Transparent there are also Guns. Not to mention half a dozen magic-based ways to get around evasion if one is determined to avoid that particular bit of RNG.

And I have an off-the-wall suggestion: Could crystals heal status in addition to restoring HP and MP? If you can completely drop and crystalize a unit in an Arena match, you've earned a bit of a reward. And it'd be neat to see units recover from something like Silence or Blind and get back into a competitive match. Just a thought.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on May 13, 2012, 08:04:48 PM
I'm not a big fan of Nurse adding Regen instead of healing.

It's not "instead of", it's "in addition to".  It also gains Regen because Magicward and Iron Will are being merged into a single move that adds Protect/Shell with no Regen, so that the Paladin still has access to Regen but on a skill that's far better for adding it.  Magicward/Iron Will are currently used terrbily by the AI (they will actually use them over Nurse when at Critical HP, it's so bad), making them basically unusable.  It's a small buff to Nurse, making Magicward and Iron Will into one skill the AI will actually use somewhat competently, and leaving the number of skills that add Regen exactly the same (-Magicward, -Iron Will, +Nurse, +Life Song), the skills that add it just suck less and are used properly by the AI.  This is again the same with Life Song - no effect of Life Song is lost, it adds Regen at a 25% rate in addition to healing.  FDC's shorthand just sucks.

Is it possible that Esuna gets its JP cost dropped to 250? I know people have been saying they would like to see more status healing instead of relying on Raise2 to heal the unit (I think it was FDC that said this). Dropping the JP cost by 30 makes it an even 250 and makes it an easier addition to a team.

We discussed this in IRC a bit, so, really, I need to bug FFMaster but what I think needs to happen here is -

Antidote, 50 JP.
Eye Drop, 50 JP.
Echo Grass, 50 JP.

Esuna, 200 JP.
Regen, 50 JP.
Protect, 50 JP.
Shell, 50 JP.

(Personal onion, Raise 2 should probably be "raised" [hyuk hyuk] to 250 or 300 JP, but that's another matter entirely.)

(I would say Ice, 50 JP, but Ice is being switched out for Ice 2 Back, which'd be 100 JP.)
Ice 2, 100 JP.
Ice 3, 150 JP.
Ice 4, 200 JP.

Haste, 100 JP.
Slow, 100 JP.

Blind, 100 JP.

Bio 2, 200 JP.

The random not-a-multiple-of-50 values aren't helping anyone and are just annoying to deal with.  The only skills listed here that have them for reasons other than "Vanilla Derp" are the Ice series of spells, and they're not good enough to essentially cost 50 more JP than their contemporary spells.  Being economical is not that big of a boon when you consider all of the trio have their own unique perk.  It's pointless and just another reason not to use Wizards since part of their skillset is rather randomly overpriced with no real reason to be. All it really is, is an annoyance, because there's no difference between 60 and 100, 120 and 150, etc. unless you're using some of the random other skills like Esuna that suffer from "Vanilla Derp" JP costs for no reason - and again, those skills don't deserve to cost 50 more than their contemporaries.  This would also fix one of FDC's big complaints about people just letting their units die and get hit with Raise 2 instead of using Esuna - Esuna wouldn't cost 100 more JP than goddamn Raise 2, and hopefully will cost less than Raise 2 does.

Did someone say Concentrate is coming back? Why... there's already Transparent...

Transparent as a status that can be added from skills isn't used correctly by the AI, neither by the person applying or by the person it is applied to, because they incorrectly think they are invincible or that it adds invincibility through being, well, invisible.  Transparent that is Initial from an item has the same issue described for a unit equipping that kind of item.  (Specifically, the unit that had Transparent applied to them won't attack because they think attacking will remove their invincibility, unless they're going for a kill shot or something.  Basically, the AI behaves very oddly and poorly because they think Acting will remove invincibility from enemies.)  Transparent that is Always makes the unit more aggressive than usual because again, they think they're invincible little shits, but when you do something like Hidden Knife + Platina Dagger, you want that behavior anyway, so it's more of a positive bug than anything.  Concentrate itself at a 650 JP cost for a unit that's otherwise not using the Squire class, and most units don't have enough evasion to really make it worth using over Attack UP.  It helps if you want a dedicated anti-healer to break things like Main Gauche Chemists/Mediators that aren't Ninjas though.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: The Damned on May 13, 2012, 08:21:41 PM
(Well, I guess we'll never see Shintroy again then.)

I can get behind Haste actually getting some vertical--I keep forgetting it doesn't since I pretty much never use it even when I use Time Magic--and Masamune losing it. I'm assuming Masamune would still keep its Haste & Regen, though, and that this would be in addition to becoming linear like formerdeathcorps proposed.

@Wild Blow: It trades being evadable with having highly unreliable damage output.  It should have a noticeable MP cost so that it's not easily spammed but otherwise, that's the main reason.

Then we ultimately agree. I just wasn't comfortable with it both being unavoidable and being that cheap and instant, as I mentioned, given that's the exact same thing that happened with early Ninjutsu, which is still pretty damn powerful. While we should be aiming to improve as many things as possible, we should also be aiming to avoid the same mistakes.

@Transfusion: A lot more units have good MA than good HP.  Good MA is also more likely to win a game than good HP on average. You also forget that Transfusion already has a cost in HP that requires both Regen and Move-HP UP to be stacked together to offset since it doesn't heal the caster, another disadvantage it has against Murasame. It is already far more build-dependent than Murasame, and its only real bonus is being ally-only targeted, which is only meagerly useful.  Even if you weaken Murasame, it is still far better and generally more usable than Transfusion.  Removing the MP cost from Transfusion makes it a bit more level to Murasame (if only a tiny bit, Murasame is still leagues better for the most part) and lets Paladins use it with MP-screwing their other skills due to their low MP totals.

I didn't forget that. I was merely saying that Murasame doesn't completely obviate it as you seemed to be implying even on units with such things. Otherwise, you have points I suppose, so I guess I can get behind it taking no MP, even if the ally-only thing will probably bug me considering Paladins usually have Regen or Move-HP Up as it is.... However, that's more a personal POV that I honestly would like to see end up being unfounded if it allows it to see more use without becoming obnoxiously overpowering.

@Geomancy: The stats of Geomancer are irrelevant because the best Geomancy users aren't Geomancers, they're Bards/Dancers.  The stats on Geomancer handle the class not sucking but don't do anything about the skillset.

Never said that Geomancers were the best at using their own skillset or that stats would make them the best; merely that stats were an improvement to them using Geomancy, which they always would be since there's little other reason to use Geomancers. Still, even if Bards and Dancers are better than Geomancers are using Geomancy and will continue to be, if by a lesser margin, Geomancers at least get to do other things with their Secondary, like potentially get resurrection to use. Last time Geomancers were the best at using their own class, things were unfortunately...messy, though I think part of it was because Geomancy was still unavoidable back then.

@Nameless Song: Technically removing Haste makes it weaker, because Haste is still one of the best buffs to get from it.  The reason Haste is removed is to stop the AI from doing NOTHING BUT Nameless Song, which is how it currently operates.  And when the AI is shitting both Haste and Reraise onto people like candy... those teams still don't win.  Partially because the asshole with Nameless Song won't stop singing, but still.  You highly overrate this one.  Reraise becomes more common, but the lack of Hasting makes this a dubious benefit.  The main benefit will be Nameless Song using teams will actually have units that can be more than Nameless Song bots.

Oh, I know losing Haste makes it weaker. I just really dislike Reraise, as I've said before. If it wasn't for the AI whoring Haste (and Slow), then even as much as you think I "love" nerfing things, I'd still rather Haste be on Nameless Song than Reraise even after having agreed to the suggestion about Poison persisting beyond death. Oh well, perhaps Poison (and Dispel Magic and new Spellbreak) will be enough combined with how seldom the AI actively uses Reraise, Protect or Shell for this to not be as potentially bad as I expect, but I guess we'll just have to see.

@Poison: I say "Antidote" as a joke. -.-  Chemist actually gets weaker from this, because now you'll need to spend even more JP on the Item skillset itself to get Antidote, forego Antidote, or forego something else, and if you DO get Antidote, you get to deal with the AI randomly throwing Antidotes when it should be doing other stuff.  If anything, the Esuna / Stigma Magic / Regen users are the ones who gain the most here, because they can handle the threat without additional investment or risky AI derps.

I was aware of that. I was merely stating how I don't want Item to have be even more depended upon than it already is, especially since, despite requiring slightly more investment, Antidote is pretty damn cheap at 70 JP; not that it should be more, it's just doesn't seem like it's going to make people be forced to drop something on Chemist that they would otherwise use as you seem to be implying.

Esuna and Stigma Magic benefiting doesn't make me feel much better either to be honest, but oh well. At least maybe Regen, Squire's Heal and the Poison-blocking equipment will see more use now, though Regen was at least used semi-frequently unlike those last two.

@Magic Guns: You merely proposed a huge pile of debuffs to Magic Guns beyond the WP decrements, when it wasn't Magic Guns that were even the issue, merely an interaction between one Gun and one skill that's fixed by a simple WP and proc adjustment.  If anything, the other uses of Magic Guns need buffs if anything - which is the other thing the 100% Tier 3 + 13-12-11 WP setup does, buffs their far weaker uses while making their one problematic one about on par with other weapons.

Uh, where? I literally only talked about actual guns twice in my original reply to formerdeathcorps where I a) agreed with his/your magickal gun nerfs and said that, without knowing what the average was (becoming), I'd probably go with the slightly lower WP (because the guns would still be unavoidable without Projectile Guard) and b) where I said that all guns probably shouldn't be able to be used with the shields. The second proposal was less about magickal guns--I'd be lying if I wasn't thinking about them, though--and more about how you shouldn't be able to have that much range with unavoidable attacks and still be able to give yourself extra-evasion and boosts with a free hand, at least innately.

That applies to Romanda Gun, Mythril Gun (not that anyone ever really uses the thing) and Stone Gun as well. It just seems really backwards to allow guns to use shields while at the same time having the less powerful, less accurate, less versatile and not-as-far reaching longbows to all be forced to be two-hands, which is part of the reason they currently suck and are barely used compared to guns. So unless you're talking about how I wanted the lesser WP for the magickal guns of the two integers offered, I really don't know what you're on about with this "huge pile" of debuffs.

@Bow Gun: No... I mean a 50% Armor Break proc has a lower net chance to hit the target than a 19% Shellbust Stab proc because Armor Break with a Bow Gun has a terrible hit rate.  It's essentially a 15-20% proc after you compute Armor Break's hit rate, that then becomes a Double Shot weapon afterward, which isn't a big deal due to Bow Gun's low WP.

Oh, okay then. I can agree with that.

@Undead: Not talking about status interactions, nope.

Hmmm...I guess I'll still have to think about it then.

@Nerfing: I'm just pointing out back when I decided to give Arena a look over (1.32ish?), it was a quagmire of things in the opposite direction - everything sucked, and I was able to make an essentially unbeatable team out of what were otherwise the worst items and abilities in Arena.  DERP is still really high up there in part because I'm not a fucking idiot and it abuses Speed ties, interactions, has tons of contingency plans, etc., but each version makes it harder and harder for teams like that to win v the entire field - because the entire field is becoming less and less of a quagmire of shit in terms of both teams and classes/equipment.  In a PVP game like Arena, one of the most important things is to allow a large number of strategies either competitive validity or the illusion of competitive validity, which are both much more easily obtained by pulling the bottom up than by pulling the top down, so to speak.  The latter is honestly what's most prone to making a 1-strategy metagame.

I mostly agree with that philosophy.

I just don't think it's as straightforward as it could be, unfortunately, with the restriction of the (current) AI being in charge and everything being proposed to happen at all once. If this was basically what Tethical is aiming to be with actual people in charge of their own teams and/or happening in waves rather than one tsunami of changes at once, then I'd likely to be able to readily get behind a hell of a lot more/not be so cautious. I really don't think nerfing "works" as much as you seem to be getting the impression that I do, but I'm sure as hell going to get more and more cautious with the more things that want to be changed for reasons that don't seem as readily clear to me as they do to you; it's only natural.

As such, keep in mind that I'm not the only person who, when looking at formerdeathcorps'/your list, only sees a list of things to change without any reasons as to why.

All that finally said, I've three (technically 4) equipment related suggestions:

@Sprint Shoes: +1 Move +1 Speed oh god no.  For someone who likes to nerfstick so much, you must realize how ridiculous that is.
 
Sigh. Ignoring the bold, yes, I do; admittedly I perhaps don't think it's as "ridiculous" as you seem to be implying, though you know you're more than welcome to enlighten me as long as you avoid being condescending. I said that should be done for Sasuke Knife's sake (and even then it's quite arguable for a couple reasons) because I'm not sure FFMaster even has any Item Attribute space left to try to improve Sasuke Knife (or some other pieces of equipment that really need it). I'm at loss as how to do that as it is, especially if it has to continue sharing with Sprint Shoes. Would +1 Jump instead of +1 Move be acceptable? What do you think Sasuke Knife would need for improvement, even as relatively unimportant as it is, if "we" are really trying to push as many valid strategies and choices as possible?
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: dacheat on May 13, 2012, 10:47:18 PM
Have y'all ever thought of implementing a move that could crystallize dead units (maybe this is the new purpose of execute)? It would obviously only work on dead units, and it should probably have a CT so that the enemy has a chance to revive the unit or disable (kill, berserk, or otherwise) the caster.

I'm not sure how the AI would handle such an ability though.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: The Damned on May 14, 2012, 01:10:07 AM
(Sigh. That last post had quite a few typos I missed in my initial once. Apologies, Raven.)

Ugh. I have a rather sizeable headache right now, but I figure I might as well answer this before I go back out to do more chores.

Have y'all ever thought of implementing a move that could crystallize dead units (maybe this is the new purpose of execute)? It would obviously only work on dead units, and it should probably have a CT so that the enemy has a chance to revive the unit or disable (kill, berserk, or otherwise) the caster.

I'm not sure how the AI would handle such an ability though.

The AI would probably handle it well.

The primary problem is, though, that with current formulas, which are mostly still the original ones, we are completely unable to do that. You'd have to make a formula akin to Seal Evil's (and Consecrate's), except that instead of only working on the Undead, it would only work on the Dead. There might be other ways to do it, but would doubtless be the easiest, especially since we can't use two different Inflict Status Codes, i.e. Cancel Dead (to only target the dead) and Add Crystal (add Crystal to them).

That said, with the proposed change to Poison, this also shouldn't be necessary at all.

P.S. It is impossible for overkill-damage to add Instant Crystal. If that were possible, then it would pop-up a lot and most people would probably actually avoid using Phoenix Down (and Wish) because of it. Execute being proposed to do "double damage" to the Critical is for...other reasons.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: dacheat on May 14, 2012, 01:42:34 AM
Is there a way to cast something like quick on a dead unit to make them immediately take their "turn" and make the counter go down?
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: The Damned on May 14, 2012, 02:23:29 AM
(Ugh. Still haven't left yet, so....)

Not really sure why you're insist about this, but to answer your question, no.

Again, you'd have to make up a formula that specifically targets the Dead. It should possibly be easier since you could use the formula for Reis's Dragon Power Up (or whatever it was that "gave" Quick to dragons) and just make the requirement that unit has to have Dead status rather than be ID'd as a "Dragon".

That said, as interesting as suggestion is it is, for ARENA, it would likely be quite useless. Most resurrection happens before the counter even hits 2, much less 1. You're better just building "anti-healer" units, which again letting Poison persist past death allows. Still intriguing to think about though....
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on May 14, 2012, 05:08:19 AM
(Well, I guess we'll never see Shintroy again then.)

Apparently adding 3 weapons that are strictly better than the weapon he wants while doing the exact same thing along with a Crossbow that adds Silence isn't good enough, I guess.

@Chemists/Antidote: Most people spend all 3000 of their JP, unless they're silly.  70 JP is essentially 100 JP unless using other oddly-costed skills like Echo Grass, so you very likely will need to drop /something/... and then you've ultimately got a skill that does nothing but Cancel Poison with nothing else.  Yay.  I'm more just pointing out that all the non-Item sources of anti-Poison are just outright better in general, and this Poison edit directly HURTS Phoenix Down users, so Item is being damaged quite a bit via this change. not helped.

@Guns: That's the debuff I'm talking about.  Notice that Longbows are being buffed, again, and Crossbows are getting buffed, and Guns are getting nothing but a debuff on bad interactions and maybe a slight buff in net Attack damage on the ones that require you run 70 Faith and have more risk to them.  When a class like Archer can access multiple weapon types, it's common for one type to be the go-to and the rest kinda be secondary, especially when each weapon type follows design trends as they (usually) do in Arena. In this case, Guns are primary, Longbows and Crossbows are secondary, but like I noted - the weaker end (Crossbows and Longbows) is being buffed, and the main thing that makes Guns leet awesome (Kagesougi Gunning) is being addressed.  Shore up the bottom value instead of undercutting the top line.  Longbows probably need more buffing than what FDC suggests though, but I need to run their numbers more.  They probably need higher WP rivaling Books and such, though, even though the stronger procs will also help.  But that's a problem with Longbows being inferior, when you stop to realize the Gun users (Kagesougi Gunners aside) aren't ruining the game, the Longbow users just can't keep up - so help them keep up, don't trip someone whose not damaging the game and risk ending up with both sucking instead of just one of them.

@only sees a list of things to change without any reasons as to why. - FDC kind of spontaneously posted.  I don't know why he did.  There is a reason I am out here fielding all the concerns that get raised since he decided to shit out a barely readable shorthand list that's of dubious use even if you DO know the goddamn context. I'll re-compile the changelog with actual explanations sometime later.
 
@Sasuke Knife: I personally think the weapon should just be scrapped and redone entirely.  Hidden Knife does everything you'd want Sasuke Knife to do unless you don't run Two Swords, which is fairly rare when it comes to Ninjato and Dagger users.  I can think of a couple defensive Thief builds where Sasuke Knife is better, but there's essentially two weapons in the same weapon group competing for the same design space.  I'd rather kill it and come up with a completely new idea.  It's not like most Ninjato have tons of flair so there's plenty of design space to work with in that regard.

@Condescending: I am always smug, arrogant, and condescending.  Where have you been? :V
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: The Damned on May 14, 2012, 06:56:11 PM
(His loss. You know how people are never satisfied.)

Ugh. Meant to reply to this last night, but Firefox (and my body) acted up on me yet again. I'm noticing a pattern here. I need to start using Opera since Chrome is apparently crap on this computer, but I digress.

EVEN THOUGH YOU'RE RIGHT ABOVE ME AGAIN.

@Chemists & Antidote (The Item, Not the FFT Track): I suppose so. Despite reconsidering the Poison thing as above, I hadn't considered how much it screws over Phoenix Down, only Wish. Still not sure it has as much impact even given the tendency to spend all 3000 JP, though normalizing all costs to be divisible by 50 will definitely help with that; even if you are suggesting further decreasing Antidote to be a mere 50, making Raise 2 more expensive is definitely something I can get behind.

@Guns: Oh, okay. So that's what you meant. I got confused when you said "huge pile" since, as I said, I only mentioned it twice. I can see what you're saying a lot more clearly now. While still think it might need to be measure that needs to be taken even with Kagesougi's most blatant problem already being taken care of, I can handle holding off for the same reason that I conceded about Wizard's points: potentially too many changes at once. As such, I would agree that Longbows probably need to strengthened more, though at this point they've had more attention paid to them than some other less than stellar weapons categories (Katana, Poles, Bags, etc.).

@only sees a list of things to change without any reasons as to why.: Oh, I wouldn't say what formerdeathcorps did was entirely bad. I think he wanted to put the list out for public comment because not everyone goes to chat, among other things. It's that that many changes, without much context besides the other things that are being changed and any further explanation of WHY (and sometimes a lack of clarity, as with "de-cancel" or features that are additions rather than replacements), are inevitably going to be confusing in some aspects. But, hey, you're here.
 
@Sasuke Knife: Agreed. I still Hidden Knife doesn't need that Speed +1 at all, but it can keep Always: Transparent (for now). Sasuke Knife probably just needs to die (and be redesigned) since there's absolutely nothing redeeming about it (like at least three of Katana).

@Condescending: Shrug. I guess I'm just used to if you are given the nature of the Internet and humanity. That and/or you're one of the few condescending people who tends to know what the fuck he's talking about rather than some arrogant twat who is in reality some vacuous buffoon.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Fantactic1316 on May 15, 2012, 12:48:37 AM
Suggestion: Equipment with Always: Regen should gain Cancel: Poison. Regen cancels Poison in other instances, but things like the Light Robe get screwed up by Poison. Regen can't override the Poison because Regen still can't be cast on the unit, even though the Poison has cancelled it out. Just a small little complaint.

On the topic of Poison, I don't like the idea of it persisting past death. It makes one simple status effectively cancel Phoenix Down, Wish, and all forms of Reraise. I'm not a fan.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Gaignun on May 16, 2012, 12:23:04 AM
While I appreciate the buff to poison, having it persist is going to make Raise and 0 CT healing even more popular.  I understand that you want poison to deny Phoenix Down's use, but I think there are already means of doing so.  These means include guns, geomancy, and concentrated physicals (if Concentrate comes back).  Adding poison as another mean is all fine and well, but it will add too much collateral damage.  Fantactic raises a good point: wish and reraise will also suffer.   Relying on healing with CT (ie. any "X Magic") is going to be a lot less effective, too.  This means that the few people who haven't already run to 0 CT healing - namely items, Murasame, and Punch Art - which are effective in their own right, are going to do so.

If we're going to buff poison, I propose we strengthen the one feature that makes it unique: using your opponent's max HP against him/herself.  Currently, it is negated by Move-HP UP.  Having it deal ~20% damage per turn would change that.  It would be like in Final Fantasy X.  Poison in that game was scary.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on May 16, 2012, 01:23:41 AM
Suggestion: Equipment with Always: Regen should gain Cancel: Poison. Regen cancels Poison in other instances, but things like the Light Robe get screwed up by Poison. Regen can't override the Poison because Regen still can't be cast on the unit, even though the Poison has cancelled it out. Just a small little complaint.

I don't see the problem with this myself - it just gives Poison a reason to see use, similar to why the other change is proposed.  Light Robe and P Bag are already respectably strong considering Regen is stronger than Move-HP UP, the Poison interaction just gives them a counter instead of making those items guarantee a long slog.

On the topic of Poison, I don't like the idea of it persisting past death. It makes one simple status effectively cancel Phoenix Down, Wish, and all forms of Reraise. I'm not a fan.

Considering many times, Phoenix Down / etc loops just extend already lost games, it again gives Poison a metagame use while shutting down teams from flailing if you choose to incorporate it into your team.  The revived unit still also gets their turn to cope with the Poison effect before dying again, and oftentimes they'll have healing or something to offset it.  The teams that end up getting put down are the ones who likely wouldn't be making a comeback anyway.

Though, if it did persist after death, Poison would likely need to regain its CT to give it some level of fairness.  Infinite duration and persistence through death is a recipe for derp, agreed.

Gonna re-post FDC's list with the stuff he forgot and some reasoning for it to give people a better idea of wtf is going on:
































There, FDC's List-o-Changes with a few things he forgot added in, fully explained, etc.  Enjoy.

@Gaignun:  Poison currently does 1/8th HP Damage, or 12%ish.  The only way to buff it would be to 25% without a messy rewrite for 20%, but in either case it just ends up becoming too good since units suddenly drop to poison in only a couple turns.  The change here is again mostly meant to make it a weapon against sandbagging wars.  It does push people toward Raise 2 a bit - but if you read the rest of the changes, specifically those concerning Priest, the changelog itself is actually trying to push them away from Raise 2 and toward the Esuna and Regen spells, which also heal Poison.  It becomes quite a thing, really.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Gaignun on May 16, 2012, 02:54:32 AM
Esuna has a charge time.  Relying on it to restore Poison on units revived without Raise will be a crapshoot.  Relying on it to restore one's own poison will be impossible.  0 CT skills are the only reliable salvation.

I understand where you're coming from about resurrection loops.  I always thought AoE was the answer to breaking them, though.  What I'm saying is, a team that can't break an opponent's resurrection loop is a team that's too reliant on single-target attacks.

As for pushing people away from Raise, what other form of resurrection are people being pushed to?  The way I see it, all forms are becoming worse or staying bad.  Dying will become more costly, so either stacking pure offense for one-hit kills (eg. FDC's S1 team) or stacking pure defense to avoid dying (eg. Wiz's S1 team) will be the go-to strategies.  Aren't these strategies viable enough already?  Maybe I'm alone on this, but I find the battle where teams go back and forth with offense and defense to be the most exciting.

25% poison sounds delicious.  We'd need to make the status more difficult to inflict and give it a short CT (say ~4-5 turns at 8 SP for certain death without healing).  Esuna and Regen will be equally attractive.  I think we could make it work.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Fantactic1316 on May 16, 2012, 03:37:08 AM
Eh, personally I don't think a unit should be able to negate my Light Robe unless they're packing Armor Break. Poison takes away Regen, with no hope of having it re-cast, and if it persists past death then the problem just gets even worse. But that's just me, I guess.

And ick! Flare losing reflectable? It already has higher Y values. And adding 1MA to Wizards helps too. And it's non-elemental so Reflect is basically the only really effective method of cancelling it. Just keep it at 100% success rate and that'll be enough advantage over evadable Holy.

Also, I like Gaignun's thoughts.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Gaignun on May 16, 2012, 05:21:32 AM
I'm late on this, but I thought I'd add my input to other listed changes:

Quote
Venetian Shield => Glitter Shield (5/5 +1 SPD)

I'm with The Damned on this: can we use a name other than Glitter Shield?  This is what I think of when I read the word "Glitter":

(http://img820.imageshack.us/img820/9590/061320simmons2.jpg)

No offense to the name's creator or anything.

Quote
Crystal Shield (Change to 20/20, Neutral: All Elements.)

So it covers... only Light Robe's and P-Bag's Dark weakness, I think?  Too bad it won't do anything for Fire, Ice, Gold, and Mythril Shield's weaknesses, which is unfortunate, as I believe these weaknesses are what are preventing their adoption.   Crystal Shield will remain specialty shield.

Quote
Defense Ring (+8/8)

I think Defense Ring is going to need a little more to entice people.  +8 evasion is like garnishing shit with parsley (excuse my language); it still smells bad.  Maybe give it "Absorb: Earth" instead of EV to round out accessories' absorption of "secondary elements."  This is just a thought.

Quote
Add: Wild Blow (Weapon Elemental/Range, RN{XA / 2...XA * 3 / 2} * WP, unevadable, 5 MP, 100 JP)

I'm with Raven on this one: increase the MP cost to keep the AI from spamming this.  Either that or let it be evadeable.  Otherwise, consider units with Wild Blow as units that can have both Attack UP and Concentrate equipped at the same time with an occasional Berserk-like damage boost.  That's pretty broken.

Quote
Antidote - Cancel: Poison and Blind, 100 JP.
Echo Grass - Cancel: Silence and Berserk - 100 JP.

Sound proposals, and a freed item slot besides.  The status infliction of Kiyomori will be manageable this way, and people will have an accessible means of healing berserks they don't want.

Quote
[Personal addition - Remove Reflectable from Flare to give it an advantage over Holy.]

If you're looking for an advantage of Flare over Holy, you got it by making Holy evadeable and buffing mantles.  Having Flare pierce reflect is a slap in the face to reflect.  I say we keep Dispel Magic as the reflect counter.  If Flare isn't useful enough, I suggest we lower its MP or CT instead.

Quote
Add: Warpath (+3 Fury at end of the turn if moved, 300 JP)
Add: Holy March (+3 Faith at end of the turn if moved, 300 JP)

I mentioned this before, but these proposals shadow Faith UP and Brave UP.  If these movement abilities must be kept, then please lower the increments to +2.

Quote
Summoner
Change: All spells CT > 4 take M-EV.

Some summons, particularly Salamander and Leviathan, are going to be dramatically underwhelming with this change.  We'll need to buff these summons' damage or give them a status proc to compensate.

Quote
Change Hell Ivy to +Stop
Change Carve Model to +Don't Move

We are trading one evil for another with this one.  Hell Ivy is just as common as Carve Model, and double-panel Stop can be just as game-ending as double-panel Petrify (and just as bitter if it's off of Counter Flood).  Can Hell Ivy remain as +Slow?

Quote
Oil:
Dispel by all elements (except holy/dark?)
Weak to all elements (except holy/dark?)

[Personal addition - I see no reason to exempt Holy and Dark.  There are very few Holy skills or weapons in Arena, and while Dark is prevalent, it is also the most easily countered through Black Costume being the best of the Elem Absorb items, among other things.  Koutetsu was also weakened, as was Meiton, so there's no real reason to exempt either element, personally.]

There is one holy skill worth mentioning: Holy.  Letting oil boost Holy will let low-MA short-charge mages 1HKO anything without magic resistance.  This falls into my grand scheme of reserving Holy and Dark for powerful skills that would otherwise be broken with oil modifiers.  As for the prevalence of Black Costumes, that's a problem with failing to entice people away from Dark absorption.  By exempting dark from oil, we pull people away from dark and toward six others.  We give players a choice this way: give a permanent, mild boost to Holy/Dark damage with a Golden Hairpin or go for a temporary, large boost to the six others with oil.

To close, let me echo two of The Damned's proposals that aren't present, since I thought they were inspiring:

Quote from: The Damned
Turn 108 Gems into Coral Ring... [L]et it Absorb: Water and Block: Oil, Poison and Frog

Quote from: The Damned
Let Salty Rage Strengthen All Elements Alongside Other "Fun" Things

"Init: Berserk" is a gimmick tactic (case in point: zero salty rages are being used in S1), so I'm all for letting Salty Rage inherit 108 Gem's purpose and turning 108 Gems into some sorely-needed water-based equipment.  That this "Coral Ring" also blocks Frog and Oil are thematic perks.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Fanatic on May 16, 2012, 05:00:29 PM
Something I've been wondering...

I understand the AI reserves priest spells Protect and Shell for when the unit needs healing. I would like to see that buffed. Has anyone ever played with the idea of making the spell protect, in addition to adding protect, also cure darkness (which is usually inflicted by PA based attacks)? Similarly, shell could be used to also cure a status ailment commonly inflicted by MA based attacks (don't act comes to mind, archer class aside).

Is this even doable? Would the AI be more willing to use those spells then?
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: The Damned on May 16, 2012, 06:19:20 PM
(I feel slightly less idiotic about suggesting Coral Ring and Salty Rage now.)

Similarly, I'm glad that this isn't just a back and forth between Raven and I given what a long-winded bastard I can be among other things.

NOW WITH FILLED IN REASONS.

First and foremost, spoilers won't open if they have apostrophes in the titles, Raven. Even though it's probably the most minor thing since we all already know what formerdeathcorps said and it's only an issue with his versions of Shields, I figured I'd let you know. I think there are some other pieces of punctuation that cause the same problem, but I don't remember and it's not important right now.

Secondly, I'll do yet another list to comment on the clarified stuff. However, it will mostly be the added stuff since I don't want to repeat myself where I don't think it's necessary:

1. Pain Knife being only a "sort of joke": Oh, thank Hera, especially if Hidden Knife and Concentrate are both going to be around.

2. Koutetsu Knife becoming more usable: While Heaven's Cloud becoming usable due to 50% Slow is obvious, I'm still really not seeing how +1 PA is going to help Kotetsu Knife (that much). Please enlighten me/us. Similarly, though somewhat unfair to point this out, this also still does nothing to solve half of the other Katana being crappy at present.

3. All Longbows get an additional +1 WP: I can agree with this.

4. All Books getting condensed WP: I can also agree with this.

5. Jaded Defense Armlets: Yeah, both either need to Null or need to Absorb. I'd rather they both Absorb, especially since I don't have a problem with making Rubber Shoes Absorb Lightning, but that might just be me.

6. Wild Blow costs more MP: Since this is what I was originally saying and you pretty much agreed when you clarified it, I of course still agree with this. I think 15 MP is fine actually, if only because I kinda think that's the same amount of MP that Alacrity/Focus should actually cost. That said, 20 MP might be necessary, but I'd personally rather try 15 MP first, at least until I do (or someone else does) average MP calculations.

7. Preferred Chemist Version in light of Hell Ivy: Well, personally, the most preferred Chemist is a dead one, but that might just be me.... As for what the [New Item] "should be" despite me being somewhat uncomfortable that canceling Poison & Blind and Silence & Berserk, I have one idea that instantly came to mind:

Chronos Tear - Cancels Stop - 150 JP - (Uses Eye Drop animation).

If some of you are so adamant about letting something as ubiquitous as Hell Ivy potentially cause something as devastating as Stop, then as much as I would like for Heal to see more use, it still needs to not be the only source of canceling Stop. As much as I hate strengthening Chemist (or Priest or Monk), it seems one of those classes needs to be able to cancel Stop and Chemist is least obnoxious, even if it's not multi-target while Hell Ivy is--just like how the normal Stop of Time Mages that no one ever uses is.

Of course, I don't think that Hell Ivy should be causing Stop in the first place and it's not exactly like Chemist needs another ability. The only viable things left for it to cure are Slow, which it shouldn't be doing, and Charm, which might be fine but only if Esuna and Stigma Magic lose it even though the Chemist would likely self-target that cure instead of using something else now. So, preferably, Chemists shouldn't get anything else IMO, but if they "have to" and this Hell Ivy change goes through....

8. Prepare's Name: Personally, I think "Iron Will" is a good name that should still see use and it's not too confusing even with the shift.

9. Warpath and Holy March: I was thinking about this a while before Gaignun mentioned it, but I didn't feel confident enough to suggest it. However, I agree with Gaignun that they should both become +2, if only for the sake of Brave Up and Faith Up, respectively.

10. Dia going to Priest unchanged: I'm still going to have to say "Oh Hades no" here big time for Priest getting Dia from Paladin, especially wholesale. Call me "nerf-happy" or whatever, but there is no way that Priest needs something as almost half as strong as Holy yet a fifth as cheap, instant AND with the ability to Blind. Yeah. That is...well, let's just say something needs to change here if Priest is getting Dia at all. Big time.

11. Raise 2 becoming more expensive: Yeah, that bullshit should have been 300 JP yesterday, so I can agree with that.

12. Esuna becoming less expensive: I can also agree with this, if only for the sake of normalizing everything to be divisible by 50. I'm not sure it should go all the way down to 200, though, since it's pretty damn good, so 250 JP seems a bit more "fair". It's not terribly important though and I can see why you want to make it that cheap in light of Stigma Magic, but I'd personally rather make Stigma Magic cost more JP....

13. Holy becoming avoidable: I...actually don't agree with this, at least if "you" are so insistent on Priest getting Dia. Holy then becomes inferior to Dia since that's also evadable, but costs a hell of a lot less and is instant and can cause Blind, so you can miss with it a hell of a lot more with a hell of a lot less risk. [/hell of a lot]

14. Flare ignoring Reflect: Yeah...no. If this ignores Reflect, then it needs to become evadable like Holy is being proposed to be. Considering that everything else Wizard/Black Magic(k) has is already evadable, this is a poor option. So, then it would need to lose some power...this even though it's already weaker than Strengthened Holy, which is now technically weaker than Strengthened Dia. So...yeah.

15. Time Magic(k): Sure, I can agree with all of these. I feel slightly better about Embargo's Immobilize being AoE 2 now as well.

16. Accidental Summoner Agreement: Let it be known that I'm an idiot--like that was ever in doubt--and that I only agreed to the CT > 4 thing because I was misreading as CT < 4. Why should the longer spells be less reliable ones when there's literally the opposite case for all other magic(k)? I guess I could understand Leviathan and Salamander getting that treatment due to their sheer AoE even though they're currently still mediocre as hell and with this change become even worse, especially in Salamander's case where it has to "compete" with the still unavoidable Ifrit. So I actually don't agree with this at all. Please reverse it or do...something at least try to do something to make Leviathan and Salamander worth using if they're going to become avoidable.

17. Odin & Lich: That said, I suppose I need to restate that I did read these properly (even though formerdeathcorps failed to mention Lich was becoming non-elemental). As such, I will restate that I still agree with these changes, especially with the chance of Dead being "Standard".

18. Life Song & Wiznaibus: I forgot to ask this last time: These two are still 100% and unavoidable, correct? Because that might be kinda problematic with the Poison that Wiznaibus is now adding.... Of course, that Dancer shouldn't become even weaker than Bard like it already is, so....

19. Holy & Dark benefiting from Oil: Yeah, no. Besides what Gaignun pointed out with Holy (the spell), it would also apply to Dia and Demi 2 at the very least. Dia, as it is now, becomes an instant 75% Holy with the chance to Blind for 6 MP. Demi 2 becomes multi-target instant death even if taking my suggestion to make it do 50% HP.

Furthermore, Holy & Dark are already two of the most used elements, whose only real competition at present is Fire. Ice and, to an even lesser degree, Lightning see middling use while the other three elements hardly see any; we already saw my Water rant.  Holy & Dark don't need help. Perhaps they can come to benefit from Oil eventually, especially if weakness is lowered to x1.5 from its current x2. However, as it stands now, they should probably sit this boost out.

20. Poison becoming finite again: Yes, this needs to happen, at least if Poison is persisting beyond death.


I'm not really what side of the Poison "debate" I fall just yet outside of the above, though I personally don't mind Phoenix Down and Reraise status getting screwed over. Wish, much like Fighter, is an unfortunate casualty.

Next, I'll respond to posts by people who aren't Raven.

Esuna has a charge time.  Relying on it to restore Poison on units revived without Raise will be a crapshoot.  Relying on it to restore one's own poison will be impossible.  0 CT skills are the only reliable salvation.

I understand where you're coming from about resurrection loops.  I always thought AoE was the answer to breaking them, though.  What I'm saying is, a team that can't break an opponent's resurrection loop is a team that's too reliant on single-target attacks.

As for pushing people away from Raise, what other form of resurrection are people being pushed to?  The way I see it, all forms are becoming worse or staying bad.  Dying will become more costly, so either stacking pure offense for one-hit kills (eg. FDC's S1 team) or stacking pure defense to avoid dying (eg. Wiz's S1 team) will be the go-to strategies.  Aren't these strategies viable enough already?  Maybe I'm alone on this, but I find the battle where teams go back and forth with offense and defense to be the most exciting.

I rather agree with all of this, though at the same time I realize that the "back and forth" thing can easily slip into the rather pointless sandbagging battles that Raven and whoever else supports this are trying to avoid with this change to Poison. Due to the subtlety at which this often occurs, I'm not sure that there even is a compromise on this unfortunately.

We can all agree that Poison in FFX was/is damn dangerous, though.

Eh, personally I don't think a unit should be able to negate my Light Robe unless they're packing Armor Break. Poison takes away Regen, with no hope of having it re-cast, and if it persists past death then the problem just gets even worse. But that's just me, I guess.

Yeah, that really needs to be addressed. Kinda thought that Regen would reassert itself, but if it really doesn't, then the AI probably thinks that it still has Regen status on, which makes it not re-apply the status to get rid of Poison. Sigh....

So it covers... only Light Robe's and P-Bag's Dark weakness, I think?  Too bad it won't do anything for Fire, Ice, Gold, and Mythril Shield's weaknesses, which is unfortunate, as I believe these weaknesses are what are preventing their adoption.   Crystal Shield will remain specialty shield.

It also covers Cursed Ring's weakness to Fire, but, yeah, that's about it since pretty much all other equipment that's weak to anything is a shield, which is what Crystal Shield is currently taking up. I hadn't thought about that all until you pointed out, so good eye/mind.

I think Defense Ring is going to need a little more to entice people.  +8 evasion is like garnishing shit with parsley (excuse my language); it still smells bad.  Maybe give it "Absorb: Earth" instead of EV to round out accessories' absorption of "secondary elements."  This is just a thought.

I rather agree that +8/+8 in terms of P-EV and M-EV is dubious at best. However, I'm not sure how much I agree with Absorb Earth, especially with Feather Boots around. Of course, Null is different Absorb and I definitely wouldn't be opposed to it, especially if it's in combination with Defense Ring blocking Silence instead pf Berserk and maybe even with evasion as well (since Defense Ring is otherwise that outclassed).

Something I've been wondering...

I understand the AI reserves priest spells Protect and Shell for when the unit needs healing. I would like to see that buffed. Has anyone ever played with the idea of making the spell protect, in addition to adding protect, also cure darkness (which is usually inflicted by PA based attacks)? Similarly, shell could be used to also cure a status ailment commonly inflicted by MA based attacks (don't act comes to mind, archer class aside).

Is this even doable? Would the AI be more willing to use those spells then?

It's doable by making Protect cancel Blind and Shell cancel Don't Act or making Protect and Shell cure a bit of damage, though the latter would necessitate making/slightly tweaking formulas that currently don't 100% add status when they heal (unless they're canceling something).

Priest hardly needs more of a buff, though, and the AI has proven that it will use Protect and Shell, just that it will, as you said, a) reserve it for when the unit needs healing and b) when it can't heal said unit. Usually.


Finally, it would be nice to have FFMaster (or PX) comment on this when he has the time considering he's ultimately the boss of these changes. However, I'm guessing he's busy on top of being in a different timezone and on a completely different continent than most of us, so....

(Also, since I'm already behind today--thanks Firefox--and need to leave to soon, I'll proofread this later like the lazy bastard I am. Sorry.)

Bold EDIT: Well, barring that utterly visible, manually-induced fuck-up that led half of the post being bold as has happened a dozen times before. I really need to learn from mistakes.

Timid EDIT: Now that this has been properly proof-read, it actually wasn't as horrible as I was expecting/as it usually is.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Fantactic1316 on May 16, 2012, 08:03:25 PM
Yeah, that really needs to be addressed. Kinda thought that Regen would reassert itself, but if it really doesn't, then the AI probably thinks that it still has Regen status on, which makes it not re-apply the status to get rid of Poison. Sigh....

It's not that the AI thinks it still has Regen, it's that Regen still can't be cast, even though they've got Poison now. Watch my recent match with Wiz. At about 4:30 my Light Robe Priest gets Kiyomori'd, then my Archer uses Masamune on her and she stays Poisoned, gaining Haste, but not Regen.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on May 16, 2012, 09:38:25 PM
I'm with The Damned on this: can we use a name other than Glitter Shield?  This is what I think of when I read the word "Glitter":

Blame FDC for all the bad names.  :p

Glitter Shield is a terrible name, agreed.

So it covers... only Light Robe's and P-Bag's Dark weakness, I think?  Too bad it won't do anything for Fire, Ice, Gold, and Mythril Shield's weaknesses, which is unfortunate, as I believe these weaknesses are what are preventing their adoption.   Crystal Shield will remain specialty shield.

You missed the most important one and I think a couple other random ones, but yeah.  It is still a bit of a specialty shield, but it's one that's actually usable unlike the current one.  Niche items are still important as long as they're usable, which was the main point of this change - turn a useless Shield into a better one that addresses a few niches that need a boost instead of being in a niche that no one cares about.

I think Defense Ring is going to need a little more to entice people.  +8 evasion is like garnishing shit with parsley (excuse my language); it still smells bad.  Maybe give it "Absorb: Earth" instead of EV to round out accessories' absorption of "secondary elements."  This is just a thought.

I'd be fine with that, the 8/8 is something I also think is shit but was FDC's random idea.  Earth Absorb would sit fine with me, there.

If you're looking for an advantage of Flare over Holy, you got it by making Holy evadeable and buffing mantles.  Having Flare pierce reflect is a slap in the face to reflect.  I say we keep Dispel Magic as the reflect counter.  If Flare isn't useful enough, I suggest we lower its MP or CT instead.

Reflect is still amazing either way, though, and Holy will still be usually preferrable for lower cost, CT, etc.  The reason we're shying away from buffing the CT/MP on Holy or reducing it on Flare is to keep them as distinct skills - they're both nukes, but Flare is the non-Element guaranteed nuke, whereas Holy is the more powerful but riskier one.  (There's also a reason basically no one uses Flare right now - it's inferior to Holy in every way while located in an inferior skillset.  Though, between Black Magic buffs, M-EV buffs, etc., losing Reflectable on Flare can probably wait until we see whether the other changes are enough to put them on even ground first.)

I mentioned this before, but these proposals shadow Faith UP and Brave UP.  If these movement abilities must be kept, then please lower the increments to +2.

The thing with Brave UP and Faith UP is though, they cost less JP (200 v 300 on the Movements) and give more Brave and Faith than they do (5 v 3).  The main issue with Brave UP and Faith UP has been that they're mostly useful on things like Song or Lore teams that trigger them a lot (as far as Faith UP goes, Brave UP is triggered by Countergrasp and just kinda fucked either way) - and really, these Movements don't impede those teams, as they're going to want their Movements to be things like Move-MP UP, etc.  An important thing to remember is that a mage with Holy March is one without Move-MP UP, and a warrior with Warpath is one without Move +1 or Move-HP UP, which are currently key skills for them to the point they're more likely to go without a Reaction than a Movement.  While these are more generally usable, they're in a more contested skill slot, meaning the opportunity cost offsets them quite a bit.

Some summons, particularly Salamander and Leviathan, are going to be dramatically underwhelming with this change.  We'll need to buff these summons' damage or give them a status proc to compensate.

Works for me.

We are trading one evil for another with this one.  Hell Ivy is just as common as Carve Model, and double-panel Stop can be just as game-ending as double-panel Petrify (and just as bitter if it's off of Counter Flood).

You can recover from a Stop, you can't recover from a Petrify (usually).  When discussing it, we decided that +Slow on Hell Ivy clearly isn't cutting it as a powerful common proc, and +Petrify on Carve Model is basically just pissing people off, hence the reverse.  There are two big points about Stop - one, it wears off, so if your units don't get focused out fast they will get back in the fight, unlike Petrified ones, and if they do get focused out, they at least draw fire for a time, again unlike Petrified units, allowing your non-Stopped units to do things without taking too much hate.  The second point is simply that a Stopped unit has to be KOed - meaning skills like Raise, Phoenix Down, etc. work to bring them back into the fight and any reasonable team can at least get their units back up once they're killed, unlike with Petrify where it's like "welp, I don't have anti-Petrify, that unit's out of the fight for good."   Those are two really big distinctions that make Stop far less threatening than Petrify while leaving it threatening enough to make Geomancy desirable. 

(Another thing to note about Hell Ivy is that it doesn't have maps like the Arena map which are nothing but Hell Ivy tiles to my knowledge, another issue Carve Model had - it wasn't just common, but there were more than just a couple maps that were both literally NOTHING BUT Carve Model and reasonably flat.  While Hell Ivy is common, those situations with it aren't.)

There is one holy skill worth mentioning: Holy.  Letting oil boost Holy will let low-MA short-charge mages 1HKO anything without magic resistance.  This falls into my grand scheme of reserving Holy and Dark for powerful skills that would otherwise be broken with oil modifiers.  As for the prevalence of Black Costumes, that's a problem with failing to entice people away from Dark absorption.  By exempting dark from oil, we pull people away from dark and toward six others.  We give players a choice this way: give a permanent, mild boost to Holy/Dark damage with a Golden Hairpin or go for a temporary, large boost to the six others with oil.

So you're going to take a skill that's already really fast, have a second unit dedicated to spreading Oil, then have the first unit use Short Charged Holy casts at 2x damage in the hopes for a OHKO that at min MA may not still oneshot bulky units?  This seems... no better than just using an MA Stacked Holy and having a second unit that supports via other methods.  You give people multiple methods of trying to use Holy instead of just one, potentially a method of making use of Dia, etc., and really the only Dark skill of note is Kotetsu which is seeing a nerf.  There's Meiton but Fuuton and Suiton are already boosted by Oil so it's basically irrelevant.  I just see no reason to not let people experiment with every element considering trying to double the rare Holy or Dark skills that already see use is basically superfluous and Oil is not something that is easy to inflict.

As for Black Costume prevalence - it's been like that even when Dark was a terrible Element.  The main issue has always been that Water (Rubber Costume) and Wind (Santa Costume) are just worse, and the Fire/Dark combo covers both a lot of AoE skills and that pointless Weak: Dark that's on H Bag still.  It also has synergy with Undead teams, which back then were also popular despite Dark being kinda shit and them still being Weak to Holy.  Black Costume did compete with Rubber Costume somewhat if only because Lightning was as good as both Fire and Dark combined, but now that Dark and Fire have gotten better, Rubber Costume's fallen to the wayside, especially with Wizard currently being shit.  Basically, Black Costume has always been amazing and basically the best of the "Absorbs two Elements" clothing even before Dark and Fire were even half as good as they are now, and it's going to take making the other Elements (Wind and Water mostly) not suck to fix that, not adding random exceptions to Oil that just stifle creativity.  The issue is finding space to actually make Wind and Water not suck, since they both contain very few moves, and most of them are smart-targeted meaning you can't build any kind of Absorb team with them...

"Init: Berserk" is a gimmick tactic (case in point: zero salty rages are being used in S1), so I'm all for letting Salty Rage inherit 108 Gem's purpose

Counter-point: Kagesougi Gunners.  The primary users of Salty Rage for Berserking are Stone Gunners, and Berserk Stone Gunners are currently overshadowed by the imbalanced Kagesougi Gunner who does the same damage without needing to be Berserked.  If you look to Arena exhibition matches before Kagesougi Gunning became a thing, Berserkers were actually used.  They weren't uber awesome every team common, but they were used in a respectable enough number of teams.  Then, Kagesougi Gunning with 17 WP Blaze Guns appeared and did just as much or more damage without needing to be Berserked.  Ergo, I can't credit the lack of Berserkers in S1 as a reason to do in Salty Rage, since pre-Kagesougi Gunner evidence contradicts.

and turning 108 Gems into some sorely-needed water-based equipment.  That this "Coral Ring" also blocks Frog and Oil are thematic perks.

The main thing against this is that Absorbing Water won't help a Water Absorb team see use.  There are very few Water skills - Suiton, Leviathan, Water Ball, Grand Cross + Whale Whisker, and... are there even any others?  My point being that the majority of them don't even hit your party are thoroughly unreliable.  Unless Water is heavily fleshed out, making an Absorb Water accessory only makes these already borderline skills worse, not better, since they're now counterable by your enemy but you can't really do anything yourself.

Is this even doable? Would the AI be more willing to use those spells then?

You cannot Cancel: and Add: Statuses with the same skill.  A simpler method of making the AI use these skills "better" is to switch them over to Raise's formula and heal 1% HP.  Why this hasn't been done already is beyond me, and I push for it every time I can remember.  But it just... hasn't happened. :|

2. Koutetsu Knife becoming more usable: While Heaven's Cloud becoming usable due to 50% Slow is obvious, I'm still really not seeing how +1 PA is going to help Kotetsu Knife (that much). Please enlighten me/us. Similarly, though somewhat unfair to point this out, this also still does nothing to solve half of the other Katana being crappy at present.

Kotetsu Knife is a DPS weapon.  +1 PA is moar DPS.  The main issue with the "bad" Katana though, personally, is that Katana are just sloppily designed with random Yes 2S, No 2S, yes 2H, no 2H thrown around when the entire point of the Samurai class is its innate Two Hands.  If it were just me calling the shots, I'd nuke and re-up the shit from start to make it all compatible with Samurai's innate Two Hands and make them all better and more consistent to use.  However, the drawbacks of collaboration...

Jaded Defense Armlets: Yeah, both either need to Null or need to Absorb. I'd rather they both Absorb, especially since I don't have a problem with making Rubber Shoes Absorb Lightning, but that might just be me.

The main issue with this is that it makes the respective Absorb Shields that much less useful, to me.  I'm not too bothered either way, though, I happen to like Absorb teams, as my notes on FFT: Redesign probably have hinted at many times.



Chronos Tear - Cancels Stop - 150 JP - (Uses Eye Drop animation).

Works for me.  But note, they don't "have to" gain anything, I even noted that the slot could go unused in my post.  It is just there, the merging covers an issue currently in Arena (Berserk has no means of being coped with when used as a debuff sans Death) and saves space while making two terrible Chemist abilities better.  The saved space doesn't actually need to be used right away, if at all, it is just there should it ever be needed.

10. Dia going to Priest unchanged: I'm still going to have to say "Oh Hades no" here big time for Priest getting Dia from Paladin, especially wholesale. Call me "nerf-happy" or whatever, but there is no way that Priest needs something as almost half as strong as Holy yet a fifth as cheap, instant AND with the ability to Blind. Yeah. That...something needs to change here if Priest is getting Dia at all. Big time.

Actually, it's only about a third as strong.  (Holy has a Y of 16, Dia has a Y of 6.)  In fact, most Staff attacks should do about the same damage as a Dia in a Priest's hands, unless stacked for Magic Attack UP, due to how low the Y is.  Dia really is far weaker than you credit it.  Though in your favor, I will say Dia could probably use a JP cost boost to about 200 or 250 if it is moved directly to Priest.

Esuna becoming less expensive: I can also agree with this, if only for the sake of normalizing everything to be divisible by 50. I'm not sure it should go all the way down to 200, though, since it's pretty damn good, so 250 JP seems a bit more "fair". It's not terribly important though and I can see why you want to make it that cheap in light of Stigma Magic, but I'd personally rather make Stigma Magic cost more JP....

It's less about Stigma Magic, and more about making using Esuna to heal your status-laden unit actually attractive instead of just waiting for it to die and casting Raise 2 on it.  Like this, it costs as much (JP-wise) to Esuna your Blinded Poisoned Silenced unit as it used to in order to just let it die and Raise 2 it at full power.  So you can either keep the Raise 2 dump-and-revive tactic at more cost, or use Esuna at the cost of old Raise 2.

Holy becoming avoidable: I...actually don't agree with this, at least if "you" are so insistent on Priest getting Dia. Holy then becomes inferior to Dia since that's also evadable, but costs a hell of a lot less and is instant and can cause Blind, so you can miss with it a hell of a lot more with a hell of a lot less risk.

See: Dia.  You're clearly mismatching quality here.  If you see a unit doing 210 with Holy (eg), they're only going to do maybe 80 with a Dia.  A stacked unit that does 350 with a Holy does maybe 125 with a Dia.  Even if you miss a Holy, you're going to kill them with Holy before you do with Dia almost every time. 

ITT: Numbers.

Accidental Summoner Agreement: Let it be known that I'm an idiot--like that was ever in doubt--and that I only agreed to the CT > 4 thing because I was misreading as CT < 4. Why should the longer spells be less reliable ones when there's literally the opposite case for all other magic(k)? I guess I could understand Leviathan and Salamander getting that treatment due to their sheer AoE even though they're currently still mediocre as hell and with this change become even worse, especially in Salamander's case where it has to "compete" with the still unavoidable Ifrit. So I actually don't agree with this at all. Please reverse it or do...something at least try to do something to make Leviathan and Salamander worth using if they're going to become avoidable.

Bold loses meaning when you use it so much.

It's intentionally reversed from Black Magic - you get guaranteed AoE chip damage from Summon Magic and guaranteed singular high damage from Black Magic.  The high-end Summons are evadable to offset their damage + AoE, because otherwise the majority of viable magic is still ignoring M-EV and making the stat worthless.  It also adds better distinction between Summoner and Wizard, something that was honestly lacking as far as their DPS went beyond "Wizard does a bit more damage but Summoner is unevadable, hits more dudes, and accesses far more than just DPS all in one skillset."  This way, Summoner and Wizard have a bit more contrast.

18. Life Song & Wiznaibus: I forgot to ask this last time: These two are still 100% and unavoidable, correct?

Correct.

becomes an instant 75% Holy with the chance to Blind for 6 MP. Demi 2 becomes multi-target instant death even if taking my suggestion to make it do 50% HP.

1. Demi 2 still sucks.  It's sucked for a long time, bro.  Nothing's come along to change that - in fact, I think over time it's only grown to suck more.  If Oil doubling Demi 2 makes it actually worth acknowledging, more power to Demi 2.
2. It's more like a 60% Holy.
3. It's a two-part combo, where I could just use Holy as one part and kill you while saving a turn on my unit that would be casting Oil.  Having to commit two turns to doing 60% of a Holy?  lol.

Furthermore, Holy & Dark are already two of the most used elements, whose only real competition at present is Fire. Ice and, to an even lesser degree, Lightning see middling use while the other three elements hardly see any; we already saw my Water rant.  Holy & Dark don't need help. Perhaps they can come to benefit from Oil eventually, especially if weakness is lowered to x1.5 from its current x2. However, as it stands now, they should probably sit this boost out.

Holy "Element" doesn't see use.  Let's not kid ourselves.  The Holy skill sees use, and is basically the only Holy Element skill that sees use.  There's a reason Chameleon Robe and Magic Ring suck despite absorbing what's supposedly one of the most common Elements.  As for Dark, yeah, it's awesome now because Kotetsu is good and Meiton is a Ninjitsu, but you can get more use out of just having two Meiton or Kotetsu users than an Oil user and a Kotetsu or Meiton user, since those Skills are good enough to not really need doubling from an outside source - which is why the damage boost is 2x to begin with, if I'm devoting two turns to a combo, I better get two turns worth of damage out of it, or it's not worth doing.  The only real advantage to a status like Oil is that your opponent only gets to dodge or React once.

20. Poison becoming finite again: Yes, this needs to happen, at least if Poison is persisting beyond death.

I'm not really what side of the Poison "debate" I fall just yet outside of the above, though I personally don't mind Phoenix Down and Reraise status getting screwed over. Wish, much like Fighter, is an unfortunate causality.

My most preferred method of buffing Poison, honestly, is to make them both also heal/damage 1/8th MP, but people apparently didn't like actually making Light Robe usable on mages and making Poison actually crippling in a manner that isn't MAKE IT DO LEET UBER DAMAGE.  Again, the flaws of working with other people...

It's doable by making Protect cancel Blind and Shell cancel Don't Act or making Protect and Shell cure a bit of damage, though the latter would necessitate making/slightly tweaking formulas that currently don't 100% add status when they heal (unless they're canceling something).

Yeah, the only way to make the Cancel/Add work would be to make ALL sources of those Statuses do it by making it something the status does innately.  And like I mentioned before, you don't need to tweak anything, just use the Raise formula.  Pretty sure that covers everything except for Draw Out, but the only buffs Draw Out dishes out anymore are Haste/Regen, so...

Finally, it would be nice to have FFMaster (or PX) comment on this when he has the time considering he's ultimately the boss of these changes. However, I'm guessing he's busy on top of being in a different timezone and on a completely different continent than most of us, so....

You know he rarely posts on these things.  :p
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: dacheat on May 16, 2012, 10:10:29 PM
I feel like Overwhelm and Unyielding could use a small tweak. Unyielding moreso than Overwhelm I guess. Basically my point is that if a tank unit runs Unyielding they'll be targeted less frequently by the AI since the AI will be doing less damage to them (at least I'm pretty sure that's how the AI works). Obviously this is counterintuitive to the purpose of a tanking unit so I propose that it adds 20% HP instead of 20% damage/healing reduction so that they'll be targeted more frequently by the AI.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: CT5Holy on May 16, 2012, 10:12:48 PM
Except the AI doesn't like targeting high HP units either. =P
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: dacheat on May 16, 2012, 10:43:56 PM
Except the AI doesn't like targeting high HP units either. =P

I was under the impression that they targeted the unit that they could do the most damage to. Do they target based on how much they can do as a percentage of the unit's total health?
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on May 16, 2012, 11:06:12 PM
I was under the impression that they targeted the unit that they could do the most damage to. Do they target based on how much they can do as a percentage of the unit's total health?

This is correct.  The units that go ignored are those with the highest effective total HP when that unit attempts to target enemies.  I even mention this in my Arena AI Battling Guide 2.0 that the AI will focus out the unit with the lowest effective CurHP first.

Tl;dr that change won't actually do anything to AI priorities.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: The Damned on May 17, 2012, 04:01:58 AM
(Yeah, I know that I can overuse bold at times. I'm going to try not to for once. Let's all look forward to my miserable failure.)

Yeah...I'm not even going to bother quoting this time, especially since I'm just going to be replying to Raven only again. I'll also be trying to keep this short for once. (Ha!)

That said, I'll be proof-reading this post thoroughly for once, so keeping it shorter will make that task easier, especially since I've yet to do it for my last one, what with just having gotten home:

1. Names: Meh. They're rather difficult to think up; you should see some of my horrible ones. I was more just confused, at least in the case of Glitter Shield, as to why he made up a completely new name when there's at least a couple of shields that still had usable names or when Venetian Shield could still be used (unless he really hate Venice or Italy).

2. Nuking Hiroshima Katana: Yeah...I can agree with that, though at present it's relatively unimportant. It is pretty much the same reason that Hidden Knife currently screws over most Ninja Whatever and even there most of those swords are compatible with Ninja's innate Two Swords, so Sasuke Knife and the already changing Spell Edge are the only crappy ones; of course, that's not counting Short Edge either due to the upcoming change in Oil.

3. Chronos Tear & Hell Ivy: Yeah, I'm rather aware that Chemists don't "need" anything else, which is why I noted that. Trust me, I probably hate Chemists more than anyone here. That said, if Hell Ivy is keeping Stop (and you make a sensible argument for it, even if I'm still a bit uneasy), then something besides Heal should probably get rid of it like I said as much I would like to see Basic Skill used more. Still wouldn't mind all of Elemental/Geomancy becoming elemental though....

4. Dia "only" being 33% of Holy: Hunh. Really? I thought it was 3/8 for the same reason you pointed out, hence being "almost half", but I didn't do the math for that, so my bad if you're correct. But, yeah, it seems like it at least needs increased JP cost if nothing else. Even when "only" being a third, it does a good damn bit of damage and magic classes went out of their way to use it when it in something as crappy for them as Paladin's Skill Set. Now that it's in something excellent like White Magic(k)...yeah.

5. Summons with CT > 4 being subject to M-EV: Heh. "Chip damage". I guess I'll agree then, if only because you admit that Leviathan and Salamander need to become more powerful as compensation. Still think that Salamander should become something else, but meh.

6. Wiznaibus with Poison at 100%: Yeah...Poison definitely needs to become finite then. Otherwise we'll get two Mimes, two Dancer spam even worse than last time.

7. Wind: Eh... I don't think Wind is that crappy or, at least, it's not nearly as crappy as Water even if that's not saying much. For one, it already has a hell of lot more abilities than Water has, even though a lot of it is also Geomancy: {Silf, Kamaitachi, Sand Storm, Gusty Wind, Heaven's Cloud, Fuuton, Tornado}. While 3 of the 7 are again subject to terrain's whimsy (unless something triggers off of Float constantly, in which case Water is even more screwed) and 1 is smart-targeting, Wind actually has AoE to absorb beyond Grand Cross unlike Water. [/breaking bold agreement]

As for why people aren't using it...hell if I know. With Magic Ring's use utterly eclipsed by Reflect Ring at present, Tornado finally being theoretically usable now partly because of that and Wind having more weapons than Water does for Grand Cross (even if more of them are of...dubious quality), it seems like it should be at least possible to make a competent Wind-absorb team, especially one that no longer is defeated just because it didn't have Steal Accessory. It's just a lot easier to make other teams--Kagesougi, tanky stuff, various boost-related stuff, etc.--at present still since having only one magic(k)al all targeting AoE and only one physical all targeting AoE (that you makes you pretty much have to carry Slow immunity) is probably still not "enough". Still a lot more than Water has though.

8. Water: Yeah, I agree that Coral Ring would make things worse if we keep only the same four Water-element skills. Hence why I was asking for FFMaster (or PX) to convert more things to Water or create more abilities for Water, dummy. :p

Regardless, we do still need something else to Absorb Water, so....

9. Heart! Er...Holy, Dark & Oil: Sort of forgetting Dia there when it comes to Holy element, even as much as I'm perhaps overestimating it; I've similarly talked about why Magic Ring isn't seeing use "even" with its Holy absorb--Chameleon Robe is...less straight-forward, though it's strictly inferior to at least four other robes at present. At present, it doesn't help that Grand Cross is no longer best with Excalibur, but with a freaking Gun.

As for Holy & Dark benefiting from Oil, I still can't entirely buy your argument given that almost every instance of adding Oil goes hand-in-hand with damage. So it's not like you're giving up your turn to try to Unction your opponent to cause All Oil and nothing else should you miss. When it's on things like Hawkeye (sure damage with CT), Fire 2 (multi-target with presumably good damage) and a few other things, you have to keep in mind that adding Oil to the opponent (in ARENA) is already coming alongside damage; hell, I think the only thing that's proposed to add Oil that doesn't do damage is Nameless Dance. I might hesitantly agree with Holy & Dark elements benefiting from Oil if not for that; I have to otherwise agree that all it will do is make Black Costume even more popular, even if that piece of equipment will probably always be the most popular of the absorbing ones.

10. FFMaster & PX: Yeah, I know. I figure it's worth a shot, however low. As with most things, I hold no hope.

11. Raise formula for adding status: Hmmm...it works 100% of the time? I could have sworn that it didn't, but it's been so long since I've been able to test things.... Regardless, wouldn't that kinda screw over Cursed Ring/Undead users despite what you were saying earlier? (I still don't see most of the buffs you were saying at there when it comes to Undead.) Or would the AI be "stupid" enough to damage its ally for 1% "just" to add Protect or Shell?


I feel like there was one more thing I wanted to comment on, but meh.

Meh EDIT: Oh, I remembered the last thing I wanted to mention:

12. Initial Berserk + Stone Gun: It's always...annoyed me that Berserk works with Guns (and Crossbows). It just doesn't make sense and, frankly, I'm not all that much more convinced that Initial Berserk needs to stay around just for one weapon. I suppose with Longbows and Crossbows becoming better may be it might have more combinations to use, but when its merit will always remain "hit things really hard, repeatedly and without variation", you can understand how people might be...skeptical of it to put it mildly.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Pierce on May 17, 2012, 04:51:03 AM
Let me start by saying that my suggestions-to-come may have already been mentioned. I tried to skim through the text replies above, but I simply can't make time to read the mutliple essays. I tried, I really did, and I skimmed it so I may have got some of the basics of what you propose, but that's it.

Anyways...

I'm not a fan of Dia going to Priest. Despite the fact that it's not a heavy damage attack, Priests shouldn't really have that much offence going for them anyway in my opinion. At the moment there are people running Bard/Priest as primary/secondary because Holy is strong enough that this still leaves them with a powerful offensive unit that can revive, heal, cure status, and add defensive status. I'm sure Holy is seeing a nerf, but realistically shouldn't people be inclined to give priests an offensive secondary? At the moment, that's not necessary because unless your enemy is absorbing Holy, your priest is plenty offensive even with a blank secondary.

I also don't like Poison persisting through death. Raise/Raise2 are the better methods of reviving as is. They're exceptionally common, and they should be, Raise2 essentially brings a unit back as if it was never hurt. If Poison persists through death, Wish, Revive, and Phoenix Down will all feel the pain big. Yes PD is really common, and it can be annoying to watch PD-loops, but that's why you throw in an AoE attack once in a while. It's not like it needs to be a powerful AoE, the unit comes back with less than 20HP.

I would argue that Frog should be removed from BioII, but that might fall on deaf ears. Frog's a pretty annoying status. I see it's been changed to remove on death, but I'm still sort of meh on it sticking with BioII.


Idea for a new skill, feel free to shoot it down. It deals 50% damage to the user, and heals 50% damage to the enemy BUT it is undead reversible. Meaning an undead user would heal 50% damage and deal 50% damage. Maybe it's a bit OP, but Cursed Ring blows chunks right now, it could use a boost. If this idea gets dismissed, can Cursed Ring at least see some sort of boost? Maybe Reflect or Innocent, to cancel out the very realistic chance that said undead unit gets OHKO'd from Raise2.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Gaignun on May 17, 2012, 05:46:29 AM
Wall of text incoming.  I'm going to be up until 6 AM tonight making up for the time I lost putting this together.  I'm borrowing The Damned's bolding technique, as it makes arguments much easier to follow

Quote from: RavenOfRazgriz
Though, between Black Magic buffs, M-EV buffs, etc., losing Reflectable on Flare can probably wait until we see whether the other changes are enough to put them on even ground first.

This is a good idea.

Quote from: RavenOfRazgriz
An important thing to remember is that a mage with Holy March is one without Move-MP UP, and a warrior with Warpath is one without Move +1 or Move-HP UP, which are currently key skills for them to the point they're more likely to go without a Reaction than a Movement.

Yes, Move-XP UP and Move +1 are better.  These skills are also more expensive.  You currently have Holy March and Warpath at 300 JP.  If +2 Brave/Faith seems too low for 300 JP, then by all means make the JP cost lower.  Then they can serve as sorely needed mid-range movement abilities while not stepping on Brave/Faith UP's toes.  Players might even be able to equip both reaction and movement abilities when they otherwise would have to choose one or the other.

Quote from: RavenOfRazgriz
Those are two really big distinctions that make Stop far less threatening than Petrify while leaving it threatening enough to make Geomancy desirable.

Yes, Stop is the lesser of two evils.  What bugs me about Stop is that there is currently only one way to cure it, and it's on an inferior skill set.  If we go ahead with The Damned's "Chronos Tear" (which I think is an excellent suggestion, by the way), then I won't mind putting Stop back on Hell Ivy.

On a related note,

Quote from: The Damned
As much as I hate strengthening Chemist (or Priest or Monk), it seems one of those classes needs to be able to cancel Stop and Chemist is least obnoxious...

While it looks bad on paper, I think giving the item skill set yet another means of healing status is fine.  People rarely learn every status healing anyway, and 150 JP for a status with a short CT is rather steep.  Even if the cost was set to 100 JP (the same cost for curing the more debilitating Petrify), people will probably still choose to wait out Stop rather than bother curing it.  But choice is the important action we're providing here.  Currently, all teams without Basic Skill must wait out Stop whether they'd like to or not.

Quote from: RavenOfRazgriz
So you're going to take a skill that's already really fast, have a second unit dedicated to spreading Oil, then have the first unit use Short Charged Holy casts at 2x damage in the hopes for a OHKO that at min MA may not still oneshot bulky units? This seems... no better than just using an MA Stacked Holy and having a second unit that supports via other methods.  You give people multiple methods of trying to use Holy instead of just one, potentially a method of making use of Dia, etc., and really the only Dark skill of note is Kotetsu which is seeing a nerf.  There's Meiton but Fuuton and Suiton are already boosted by Oil so it's basically irrelevant.  I just see no reason to not let people experiment with every element considering trying to double the rare Holy or Dark skills that already see use is basically superfluous and Oil is not something that is easy to inflict.

Very few units are bulky enough to live through a 2x damage Holy.  If Holy is modified by oil, a 12 MA 70-faith mage with Holy strengthening (we're talking a Priest with only a Golden Hairpin and a Magic Ring here) will deal 378 damage with a short-charged Holy to a 40-faith target.  That same mage will deal 236 damage to multiple 40-faith targets with a short-charged Cyclops.  Damage goes to 528 and 330, respectively, at 70 faith.  I don't want to force people to stick to 40 faith (or Setiemson, which I'd like to remove along with Cherche, but that's an argument for a different post) to survive teams that will exploit these oil-nuke combinations.  I want to push people away from extremes and introduce them to the middle, which is currently better described as No Man's Land.  Giving people more reason to stick to low faith to avoid 1HKOs doesn't hurt just Holy and Cyclops; it hurts all magic.

I must argue that Holy-oil is better than MA-stacked Holy and a second support.  A unit with short-charge Holy is useful for other things, such as short-charge Raise - or short-charge anything really; Short Charge is an amazing support skill - and the unit spreading oil will be doing its own damage as it spreads it.  For example, fire does AoE damage, and Greased Bolt deals HP damage and poisons (... past death, as it now seems - 1HKO and resurrection denial at the cost of two turns.  Yikes!)  The short-charge mage, in addition to having the reliability Short Charge confers, doesn't need to sacrifice all defense for the sake of MA, either, allowing for synchronisation with other healing/resistance strategies.

Holy and Dark skills are not as rare as you chalk them up to be.  17 units know Holy in S1 (or up to 17 of 46 teams - I'm too lazy to count how many teams have two units with Holy).  9 units know Koutetsu and 2 know Bio 3.  (Yeah, they're not a majority, but they're still more popular than any other element.  Wind comes third with 9 units knowing Tornado, Heaven's Cloud, and Silf taken together.  I'm too lazy to count magic guns, but even if I wasn't, I doubt I'd find that Fire, Ice, and Lightning surpass Holy and Dark by usage, either.) The nerf to Koutetsu is small.  Golden Hairpin will keep Holy and Dark elements popular.  Dia will see more use with white magic users, who are a dime a dozen, and I hope Demi will see more use with buffs.  As for the difficulty of applying oil, that applies to all elements; the other six elements are at the same disadvantage.  Following this line of thought, I wouldn't mind making oil easier to apply and heal.  The weakness modifier might have to be dropped from 2x to 1.5x in this case, though.

Quote from: RavenOfRazgriz
As for Black Costume prevalence - it's been like that even when Dark was a terrible Element.  The main issue has always been that Water (Rubber Costume) and Wind (Santa Costume) are just worse, and the Fire/Dark combo covers both a lot of AoE skills and that pointless Weak: Dark that's on [P] Bag still.  It also has synergy with Undead teams, which back then were also popular despite Dark being kinda shit and them still being Weak to Holy.  Black Costume did compete with Rubber Costume somewhat if only because Lightning was as good as both Fire and Dark combined, but now that Dark and Fire have gotten better, Rubber Costume's fallen to the wayside, especially with Wizard currently being shit.  Basically, Black Costume has always been amazing and basically the best of the "Absorbs two Elements" clothing even before Dark and Fire were even half as good as they are now, and it's going to take making the other Elements (Wind and Water mostly) not suck to fix that, not adding random exceptions to Oil that just stifle creativity.  The issue is finding space to actually make Wind and Water not suck, since they both contain very few moves, and most of them are smart-targeted meaning you can't build any kind of Absorb team with them...

This is all symptomatic of a bigger problem: not giving people enough reasons to shift away from Fire and Dark.  Wizards will improve with these new proposals (which is saying very little, really; simply giving them a fancy name like "Death Man" will be an improvement - doubly so because it would be ironic).  As for space for wind and water skills, it can be made by pruning redundant ones.  For example, do we really need four tiers of Black Magic spells?  Consolidating Black Magic to three tiers will make space for one new element; consolidating to two tiers will make space for three.  Water could surely use representation here.  Then that one skill set that didn't have a unique job can find one in water healing. Wind and Earth can use representation, too, although I think I think they're doing well enough already with representation in Lore.  Then there's Draw Out's Heaven's Cloud, which sees little use right now due to the superiority of the Koutetsu-Golden Hairpin combination.

Anyway, exempting Dark from oil is going to shift people away from Dark.  We seem to be of the same mind on this need for a shift.

Quote from: RavenOfRazgriz
The primary users of Salty Rage for Berserking are Stone Gunners, and Berserk Stone Gunners are currently overshadowed by the imbalanced Kagesougi Gunner who does the same damage without needing to be Berserked.

It was a gimmick then, too.  Stone gunners were still sacrificing adaptability to do a single thing.  There aren't many ways to build a berserk gunner: Attack UP, a movement ability of choice, a Stone Gun, and that's about it.  Maybe add a few skills on the side to make use of the surplus JP when the gunner fails his job by dying.

Quote from: RavenOfRazgriz
The main thing against this is that Absorbing Water won't help a Water Absorb team see use.  There are very few Water skills - Suiton, Leviathan, Water Ball, Grand Cross + Whale Whisker, and... are there even any others?

Not really, but we can add them with a little adventurous spirit.

Quote from: RavenOfRazgriz
Demi 2 still sucks.  It's sucked for a long time, bro.  Nothing's come along to change that - in fact, I think over time it's only grown to suck more.  If Oil doubling Demi 2 makes it actually worth acknowledging, more power to Demi 2.

So let's change it.  If we want to add more power to Demi 2, let's make it useable in all cases, either by reducing the cast time, lowering the MP cost, increasing the accuracy (at the expense of lowering the damage from 66% to 50%, as The Damned suggested), or all three.  This way, we make another skill useable while avoiding the multi-target instant-death oil-Demi2 combination at the same time.  Again, this comes back to keeping on Holy and Dark skills that would be broken with oil.

Ninja edit, because The Damned posted while I idled on my own post for several hours:

Quote from: The Damned
Initial Berserk + Stone Gun: It's always...annoyed me that Berserk works with Guns (and Crossbows). It just doesn't make sense and, frankly, I'm not all that much more convinced that Initial Berserk needs to stay around just for one weapon.

They shoot the bullets harder when they're angry.  Either that or they curve them to hit more organs at once.  Haven't you seen that movie "Wanted"?  The protagonist shot guns better when he was angry.  Hard rock played in the background, too.  I don't know how he pulled that one off, though.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: FFMaster on May 17, 2012, 12:26:18 PM
Yes, I am still alive.

I've skimmed through most of the posts and here is some shit.

@Damned: I was there discussing most of the proposed changes for the next version. There are still a few things I disagree with, of course. Summon Magic becoming evadable, for example. However, some of the additions/changes that are proposed and would like to see it in action, whether it will be good or not. I would like if auto-potion becomes 70 for a version or 2, just to see how it goes, but it's not likely going to happen I think.

@Bad names for new items/abilities: I'll make new names, or steal names from other games as usual. Or I can butcher another language like a professional game designer.... (looks at Ninjitsu)
Some proposed names:
Prepare(the Protect/Shell thingy) ---> Guardian Angel
Glitter Shield: Shield of Harmony(if it fits)
Sinkhole: Mind Lapse(or something to that effect)

And I guess it's time to start fixing up names for all the other items as well, to fit their effects. Butcher your favourite language or ruin your favourite tv/anime/movie/comic series today! I'm not fussed where the names are from, just minimise FFTA usage, we have enough of that in Arena. Any names for abilities which currently suck will also be replaced.

@19% shit: Will all become 20%. I don't care that vanilla has it at 19%, increasing the procs by 1% won't fuck up the balance.

@Water not existing: I'll replace Natural selection(piece of shit Lore never used) with a water one. Unless people really object to that?

Monsters coming soon.

Prepare for some map range revives or whatever broken shit I come up with in a few months time.


EDIT: As an alternative to the Geomancer buff, I suggested giving them 5 Move, making them unique in that aspect. It's not a great idea, but it's better to run it through a few people I think.

Also, I need to know now. Do you guys prefer big infrequent version changes or more frequent minor changes? The only reason I've stuck to larger changes is because less patch releases and hence less downloading for others.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Eternal on May 17, 2012, 01:13:22 PM
Prepare -> Phalanx
Glitter Shield -> Divine Shield
Sinkhole -> Flux

Random thoughts:

-If one Bio spell is Dark Elemental, they should all be.

-Replace Fire 4/Ice 4/Bolt 4 with Water/Water 2/Water 3. Their gimmick can be low CT.

-As far as a Water Lore, that should be fine. Call it Maelstrom or something.

-Paladins are generally meant to draw attacks, right? Why not give them a skill that inflicts Don't Move around themselves so they can draw non-ranged attacks?

-Tonberrian can proc Shock.
-Broadsword can add 1 PA and 1 Move.
-Lionheart can add 2 PA.
-Ultima Weapon can proc Ultima.
-Gladius can proc Kamatachi.
-Nagrarok can be Add: Frog.
-Buster Sword can proc Braver.
-Oak Staff can add 1 MA and 1 Move.
-Yoichi Bow can be one-handed.
-Perseus Bow can be Add: Slow.
-Javelin II at 30% EVD.
-Cypress Rod can have high WP, but only 1 Range.
-Battle Bamboo can inflict Don't Act.
-Musk Pole can proc Bio.

-Since Black Magic is different now, maybe it's time for the Magic Guns to be totally booted. If that happens, I have a few replacement ideas:
1) A healing gun (because it's an amazing concept)
2) A Leg/Arm Aim procing Gun.
3) A gun with large Range.

The Poison inflicting Paladin skill FDC mentioned earlier can be called "Blightbane".
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: CT5Holy on May 17, 2012, 02:23:01 PM
Big infrequent version changes.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on May 17, 2012, 05:20:00 PM
POAST.

@Holy March / Warpath: I still don't see how these step on Faith UP or Brave UP at ALL.  You didn't do anything to actually refute anything I said or provide a counter-example, just suggested lowering the JP to compensate for the lower gain.  Those UPs belong to niche teams and those niche teams get far larger, faster Brave/Faith boosts from them, so again, not seeing where the issue lies.

@Choice: That's pretty much the idea, yeah.  There's only 20 classes, so it's really less about how often each class appears and more how different/similar its skillset is each time it does appear.

@Holy: So... you'd rather have a Short Charge Holy user and be locked into a Dancer/Archer than a Holy user that can outright just spit out that much damage and have 3 other units not be locked down due to your Holy user's build, and also be more susceptible to having your combos broken because you rely on multiple units and turns to kill things?  Can't say I agree there.  Those numbers are right but that's the result of a two-man combo - if two guys working together can't output 350~ damage for a DPS combo, it's probably not a good DPS combo considering you can get that kind of damage out of one unit with stacks.   As for Short Charge, you overrate it in Arena - it's definitely good, yes, but "amazing in general" is far from what I would call it here, this isn't 1.3 AI where SPD gets super high, Haste is a 50% SPD boost, and CTs are longer.  Going without Short Charge is far from a "risk."  I do think I've only used it once myself, and find it to be kinda "ehhh" unless you want it for a mostly dedicated healer, where it's more an insurance policy than anything.  OilHoly just lets your healer have DPS if you support them from somewhere else but leaves your strategy more easily disassembled due to having more moving parts and turn dumps.

As for your counts - again, that's the Holy skill, not the Holy element itself.  If you exempt the entire Element because it has one skill that isn't garbage or easily blocked, other things such as Dia, the Silver Bow, etc. suffer needlessly.  Same with Dark and Kotetsu.  Fire/Ice/Lightning see low use because it's a dumb idea to use them aside from Kagesougi Gunning (where Fire will see a huge upswing in representation) when you can run said Kagesougi Gunning + Venetian Shield to block all 3.  While Tournament usage results are relevant, it's important to not forget the other changes also being proposed and why some things aren't being used - in this case, the main source of Fire/Ice/Lightning aside from Magic Guns (Wizard) gets buffs (though Kagesougi aside I'd call the changes to Magic Guns a buff too) from several different directions and the Venetian Shield disappears, which will result in another upswing from those Elements, since none of them are bad or suffer from low representation themselves, and Holy becoming Evadable combined with Mantles, while not guaranteed, has a moderate likelihood of reducing the number of Holy users.  Kotetsu's nerf isn't large, true, but that's just the upswing/downswing of Dark - get a powerful skill with a huge AoE, but a lot of times half the other team just absorbs it, because again Black Costume.

And I should note here, that I do not thing all Elements should be equally valid or that Black Costume, Rubber Costume, or Santa Outfit should be equally valid as options.  Part of what makes the Risk/Reward of Element setups is that lack of parity - you can pick a "good" Element such as Dark or Fire, which are easier to make teams with but ultimately will be blocked and force you to go to "Plan B" more often, whereas a "mediocre" Element (Earth, Wind) still has enough options to be at least somewhat valid as an option, but are harder to actually make teams with - while this makes them "weaker", it gives them the advantage of being less common, meaning they won't often fight opponents who can cancel or absorb their key skills, unlike Kotetsu where it isn't uncommon to fight two units with Black Costumes or something.  That is the Risk/Reward and metagame calling that makes competitive gaming tick, and I see no real need to pull people too far from Dark or whatever.  I only want options to exist and exist with just enough validity to be feasible.  Hence, seeing no reason to pull people away from Dark arbitrarily - it does not fit with my modus operandi of making a competitive PVP game.  Parity is the opposite of what is needed.  Not to say things like Water don't need something (I did say I wanted them at least somewhat feasible), but I have no want nor see a need to even attempt to make all 8 elements have any form of equality.

(This ramble is why my Wizards have always used Ice 4 over Bolt 4 - Ice is less likely to be blocked, a bit faster, and much cheaper MP-wise, it did a bit less damage but had almost 0 chance of being blocked.  Sadly, that's all irrelevant now with Venetian Shield making basically the entire Wizard skillset kinda useless.)

@Wizard, you could go from X 2 Back / X 2 / X 3 / X 4 to X 2 Back / X 2 / X 3 and add Water to it, I suppose.  (Though doing this would require Fire 4 actually mimic Fire 2 and Fire 3 in range instead of being useless.) Going to 3 tiers also lets the Y values be a bit less compressed.  I'm not outright opposed, but it needs to be done correctly because Wizard already has a bit of a delicate balance going between its 3 spells.  Going lowest CT / highest MP cost or something would work, maybe, then just have it mirror Ice otherwise, which is similar (in the way Ice and Water "should" be, for those who care about that) but one is quick and costly, while the other is slower and cheaper.

@Stone Gunners: Yup.  They are.  They're niche units.  Like Cursed Ring units.  Other good Berserkers included dual Scorpion Tail Ninjas (which can nearly oneshot a Y U SO DERP Chemist if both shots hit - quite a feat of DPS!) and Bizen Boat / Masamune Samurai.  The point I was getting at was that they were actually good, at least to a respectable enough degree.

@Demi 2: I think you missed the point of what I said, Gaignun.  I was more lambasting the fact he was so worried about Demi 2 + Oil when Demi 2 kind of sucks... and I'll be honest, Oil + any respectable high-end attack of ANY Element should be a oneshot or at least a huge chunk of that unit's HP.  Another reason I see no reason to exempt Holy here - Short Charge Holy does the same as a Short Charge Bolt 4 with 12 MA and an Element boost.  When you consider that most units with respectable Element builds will be doing more damage than that with weaker skills... yeah, Oil is basically always a one-shot unless you're carrying 350 HP+ v Min-MA Spells.  So still, seeing nothing wrong with doubling Holy/Dark here.  They're not doing anything that anyone else isn't, and them being doubled isn't going to detract much from the value of the others being doubled - being able to oneshot someone with far weaker/cheaper skills than Holy while being able to spread Oil from your innate skillset (in Wizard's case) is going to close the quality gap a lot whether Holy can do it too or not - simply because Holy already can do it.  All allowing Holy to do it as well does is open up more potential team options, something that is never bad in a PVP game.

POAST

@Auto Potion: I'm still not sure why this even comes up.  (Well, I know, sup The Damned and your irrational hatred of Chemists, Monks, and Priests.  :v)  There really is no reason to touch it, especially with us again looking to push up the low-end damage of weaker weapons, skills etc.

@Monsters: I'll be dead honest.  I see no reason to include monsters in Arena.  They're a 100% pre-packaged unit that will never see variance, even moreso than how Gaignun called Berserkers "gimmicks."  They're the ultimate in linear gimmick units and literally anything they could add to the game could be added better via a class, item, skill, etc. being added instead.  Even with gimmick human items with Salty Rage or Cursed Ring, you still get control to add variance to your units on at least some level.  Monsters you get absolutely nothing, and you have to make what few skills (3-4) that they can do so ridiculously strong to compete they just ruin everything.  Yeah, they're "cool", but that doesn't change the fact they're overly linear wastes of space that could be better suited to adding more things for human units.

@Changes: Big and infrequent.

-Since Black Magic is different now, maybe it's time for the Magic Guns to be totally booted. If that happens, I have a few replacement ideas:
1) A healing gun (because it's an amazing concept)
2) A Leg/Arm Aim procing Gun.
3) A gun with large Range.

3) is the Romanda Gun.  A Healing Gun is about as amazing as the other Healing weapons - not that amazing.  The current Magic Guns actually let you make Element Absorb teams where they can double as both healing and damaging weapons, and if you read the most recent changes to fix Kagesougi Gunning, they only got better at that. 

The Poison inflicting Paladin skill FDC mentioned earlier can be called "Blightbane".

You take your fucking War of the Lions gibberish and get your fucking ass out of here right fucking now before I fucking murder your fucking ass.  Fucker.  :V
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Shade on May 17, 2012, 07:33:40 PM
You take your fucking War of the Lions gibberish and get your fucking ass out of here right fucking now before I fucking murder your fucking ass.  Fucker.  :V

^^
I'll be taking that.

Anyway...

@Dia
The thing with Dia is that, it would be good if it were like unfury, but currently it's faith. And when you are build for DPS, you are building damage against melee units most of the time, since none of the mages can have armors without equip armor and tanky melee units tend to have 40 faith and 40 fury. So of course you are going to take unfaith skills instead of Dia.

@Monsters
Well at this point it would be pointless to add them, since we really don't have space for them in ARENA. I can still remember the suggestions somewhat, almost all of them for some reason tried to make them jack of all trades. None of them really would have worked expect for FFM's own demon monster that had black hole and white hole. And that I could have used in ARENA, but anyway not enough space, moving on.

@Holy and Raise 2
Both of them should cost just more mp, so there would not be as much spam of them.  Also reason why I would use Holy instead of Flare is that Holy simply has better DPS/CT ratio, nothing more.

@Carbungle
This skill is the best way to get MP back compared to anything else. I mean wow did you really have to make 2 AOE or have it only cost 5 mp? AI isn't stupid about mp, if it has this skill it will heal it's mp back instead of casting damage, so it can keep casting spell without having running out of mp. So question. Why 5mp? why not like 15 or more? AI would still used it well. It would not make much harder to AI. Also the 2 AOE, just what? Anything that is going to carry this spell is going to have 10 MA atleast so it's 60 to 120 mp to 1 to 4 people. This is a lot for a team that has Holy or Raise 2. I would be fine if it was AOE of like 1.

@Demi's
I would like them a lot more if they had bigger AOE and before you ask "Why Shade? I mean there is already Lich.", reason is simple, Lich doesn't fit in summoner skillset, everything else has/had 100% hits (even if magic evasion were to come to skills, it would still be heck of a lower chance to hit). So I would actually say that let the Lich be dark elemental summon for summon skillset and increase demi AOE to 3 and Demi 2 AOE to 2. This would power up time mage skillset that doesn't see much use currently after haste debuffs.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: The Damned on May 17, 2012, 08:57:37 PM
(Ultimately, I'm not opposed to letting Chronos Tear be a "mere" 100 JP.)

Ugh. This is going to take a lot of quoting, so I'll just put the redone Katana that I was thinking about last night first before summoning up another Demon Wall of text to ram into everyone's eye-sockets and Telega their time away:



Ugh. Actually, due to how much my computer (or rather Firefox) still seems to be acting up and how long it took me to type that, I'll reply to everything else in my next reply.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on May 20, 2012, 06:31:24 PM
The Damned is actually going somewhere with the Katana, so I'll take those off his hands.

Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: CT5Holy on May 20, 2012, 06:38:47 PM
I like those proposed Katana changes.

Also, something mentioned on chat, but Speed Save could probably see a buff. Aero suggested +25 CT, others said +30. I was thinking +40, but that might be a bit much.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on May 20, 2012, 06:43:00 PM
It really shouldn't be higher than a +25 boost.  +30 is pushing it but probably acceptable.  +40 would be insane, lol.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: CT5Holy on May 20, 2012, 07:29:44 PM
I think +30 would be fine. Hardly anyone uses Speed Save right now, and I don't think it'll see a lot of use at +25, either.

Balance JP down to 250?

The swords could use revamping/buffs. They are also very underused. At the very least +1 WP on the non-Platinum Swords, but I think they should also be all (or at least most) 2H/2S-able. Granted, doing that would mean a revamp. I'll try to toss out some ideas... (note: numbers will likely need to be tweaked. Again, these are just ideas, and I'm bad at stuff at like this)

Blood Sword 11 WP, no 2H/2S, absorbs HP
Ancient Sword 9 WP, yes 2H/2S, 25% Petrify proc (actually, maybe 25% Don't Act proc would be better here? cause with 2S that's ~40% chance of Petrify)
Sleep Sword 9 WP, yes 2H/2S, 25% Sleep proc
Rune Blade 10 WP, yes 2H/2S, +2 MA
Platinum Sword 12 WP, yes 2H/2S
Diamond Sword 8 WP, yes 2H/2S, 50% Extra Attack
Coral Sword 8 WP, Water Element, yes 2H/2S, 50% Poison proc or 25% Suiton proc (actually, Suiton proc would make more sense on the flails. Except I think it's a bad idea either way since that could lead to a looooooot of damage. Thoughts?)
Ice Brand 10 WP, Ice Element, yes 2H/2S, 25% Ice 3 proc
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on May 20, 2012, 08:42:46 PM
Herp Swords Derp.

Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: The Damned on May 20, 2012, 11:04:45 PM
(Ugh. I made a Delita-mistake with "seem" in the last post. Whatever.)

Well, I'm suddenly semi-glad that I waited (read: fell back asleep when someone didn't get back to calling me) to post this huge thing. Now I can answer (life, the universe and) everything all at once rather than needing to have posted again a mere two hours afterwards.

With regards to the latest two developments, I'll get those out of the way first:

1. Katana 3.1: Ah thanks for your input Raven. Outside of Muramasa being 100% Faith still, which is literally not a change, and being slightly wary of the self-boost & MA +2, which I all understand, I rather like those, my initial input aside; it does make me feel less stupid about it though. That said, even Muramasa can still be dropped later if need be; it probably shouldn't go below 50%, though. As such, I also agree with the changes; I just would like to think it isn't making innate Two Swords more potentially obnoxious. Regardless, Lord Anubis will be pleased. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=arZh117iVQs)

2. Speed Save: Yeah, as much as I loathe to admit it, it needed a boost even before Tsumazuku's proposed change. It needs to at least boost by +25, though +30 is kinda pushing it, especially with Lore around. I'm going to think about this more, but for now I'd rather err on the side of caution as I usually do and just say that +25 CT be enough, especially since Tsumazuku isn't going to be universally used even if actually sees use now.


Now onward to the other posts:

They shoot the bullets harder when they're angry.  Either that or they curve them to hit more organs at once.  Haven't you seen that movie "Wanted"?  The protagonist shot guns better when he was angry.  Hard rock played in the background, too.  I don't know how he pulled that one off, though.

Sorry. As much as I like James McAvoy at times, I like good movies better.

Yes, I am still alive.

I've skimmed through most of the posts and here is some shit.

@Damned: I was there discussing most of the proposed changes for the next version. There are still a few things I disagree with, of course. Summon Magic becoming evadable, for example. However, some of the additions/changes that are proposed and would like to see it in action, whether it will be good or not. I would like if auto-potion becomes 70 for a version or 2, just to see how it goes, but it's not likely going to happen I think.

*snip*

Yes, I figured you were still alive. Doesn't mean you aren't legitimately busy, though, especially since I have no idea what the hell Australia's "schedule" in general, much less this time of year and much less your schedule.


1. Auto-Potion going to 70: I personally wouldn't mind it myself, but I at least concur with Raven that it's a really minor issue. It should probably wait until next version, if only because the sheer amount of changes being proposed for this version are the most yet I think.


2. "Bad" Names: Meh, names are fine by and large and the poorer ones can always be worked on.


3. 19% = 20%: More than fine with that, especially since it makes things less confusing for newer people.


4. Water's Nonexistence: I don't think anyone will object to that, especially since I don't think Natural Selection has been used more than literally half a dozen times since ARENA started more than a year ago; it's certainly better choice than screwing over Earth Dragon as I had proposed long ago. The name "Maelstrom" as Eternal suggested is fine, though that's normally only related to Behemoths and does something entirely different. As you brought up potentially trying to implement monsters, I still suggest "Big Wave", as underwhelming as it might be, or even "Tidal Wave" since all of the summons are named after themselves (and it's not like most people currently use Leviathan); other Water-element names can be found here (http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Water_%28Element%29), though of course feel free to make up names rather than feeling like you're bound to history.


5. Geomancers Getting Move 5: Doesn't seem necessary and it would step on Mime's toes a bit. Also seems like it make them get themselves killed more easily and I always figured that Geomancers should be distance units since they get what's essentially free, if conditional, magic(k). Not sure how other people feel about this though, since no one else commented (in this thread at least).


6. Patch Style Change: Large, infrequent patches are best. You have a life, things need to be allowed to work themselves out and I don't think anyone wants you to become one of the many game companies that rapidly patches things (and makes them worse just because people visibly bitch) before that can happen.


Prepare -> Phalanx
Glitter Shield -> Divine Shield
Sinkhole -> Flux

*cut*

I still think "Iron Will" should just be used for Prepare and one of the unused Shield names should be used for Glitter Shield, but these are fine too I suppose. I like "Flux", but I'm not why it's necessary; that said, now that I think about it, I've yet to see Sinkhole's animation, so maybe it is better. (Or it just fits better with Time Magic[k], especially since Sinkhole tends to be Terrain/Geomancy-related.)


Now for my random thoughts with regards to your random thoughts:

1. Bio's Elemental Properties: I concur that they all be Elemental if one of them is, hence why Geomancy still bugs the hell out of me, but that's a different issue. However, they need not be the same element, which is why I was pushing for at least one of them to potentially become Water or even Earth just because they're some of the less represented elements. That said, with Raven's point about elemental parity (which I was never pushing for...in ARENA at least) and the fact that Natural Selection is becoming Water now and your own Tier 4 suggestion, I think that all Bio spells should just become non-elemental for now.

We need at least a few non-elemental, faith-based spells that are a) quick and b) don't do fixed damage or are based on other conditions. At least a couple of people have used Bio 1 to great effect because of its non-elemental nature and I'd hate for yet something else to be absorbed/blocked by the ever-popular Black Costume.

That said, I've never really liked Bio 2 adding Frog. Can "we" just give that Oil or give it Poison and give Bio 1 Oil? Even if Frog will wear off now, multi-target changes to add Frog just seem like trouble, especially when they're not subject to terrain's whimsy. It's not a huge deal, but I figure I might as well admit that while talking about it.


2. Water Becoming Part of Black Magic at Tier 4's Expense: I can agree with this, as can other people apparently. However, I think the other gimmick should follow the flow of your Water element in Parted Ways and thus that these spells should be exempt to Reflect. Given that Tier 4 dying means that everything else that Wizard becomes subject to Reflect (unless the Back spells suddenly aren't), then it seems like Wizard would still need abilities that get past Reflect and it's not like these spells have to be horribly damaging or anything. So....


3. Paladins Purposely Immobilizing Themselves: I vaguely recall someone telling me that the AI won't use a negative statuses on itself even if they're packaged with other benefits. However, I can't remember who that was and I've yet to test it myself. That said, it could potentially be interesting, though knowing the AI, it would probably just lead to trouble....


4. Weapon Suggestions: Most sound decent enough. However, where is the room for Tonberrian, Lionheart, Ultima Weapon and Gladius coming from?


5. Possible New Guns: I'd rather not kill off Magic Guns entirely before we get to test them with their new fixes. Besides what Raven pointed out about the Option C gun being Romanda Gun, Option A Gun (Opera Gun?) would obviate the already barely used Healing Staff & Murasame as much as I also like the idea and Option B Gun is just bad news. You remember what a pain in the ass Spell Edge was when it was still like its vanilla self, right? You really want to give the potential to cause Disable/Don't Act to an otherwise unavoidable weapon? Immobilize/Don't Move won't be much better due to the sheer range on the thing, even if it were "only" 4, since then it would completely screw over Hunting (cross)Bow.


6. Blightbane: ...I kinda agree with Raven's eloquent rebuttal here. That said, it's at least a start name-wise, so thanks.


*prune*

@Auto Potion: I'm still not sure why this even comes up.  (Well, I know, sup The Damned and your irrational hatred of Chemists, Monks, and Priests.  :v)  There really is no reason to touch it, especially with us again looking to push up the low-end damage of weaker weapons, skills etc.

@Monsters: I'll be dead honest.  I see no reason to include monsters in Arena.  They're a 100% pre-packaged unit that will never see variance, even moreso than how Gaignun called Berserkers "gimmicks."  They're the ultimate in linear gimmick units and literally anything they could add to the game could be added better via a class, item, skill, etc. being added instead.  Even with gimmick human items with Salty Rage or Cursed Ring, you still get control to add variance to your units on at least some level.  Monsters you get absolutely nothing, and you have to make what few skills (3-4) that they can do so ridiculously strong to compete they just ruin everything.  Yeah, they're "cool", but that doesn't change the fact they're overly linear wastes of space that could be better suited to adding more things for human units.

*prune*

Hmmm...oddly I thought I had more to say about your post, but it's only two rather minor things; I'm not sure how I feel about the Holy March & Warpath thing, though I'd totally be done for dropping the JP if they became only +2.

Oh well. It at least spares your eyes a bit:


1. My Irrational Hatred: A slight correction, dear sir. It is Raise 2 I loathe, not Priests themselves, religiosity of the name aside.


2. Monsters Being Gimmicks: While you have a point about that and while monsters aren't exactly a priority, I have to disagree quite a bit with your other issues:

  a. There's more than enough space unused to in ARENA to give them more than a mere 3-4 skills. "We" would just have to make sure that human classes all require 1 Level of Squire rather than 0. Thought I suppose it wouldn't to be to try screw around with giving monsters' (human) Secondaries given the validity of your linearity comment.

  b. Given the amount of people that have wanted monsters (and Mimes) to get around their inability to use equipment. Most of the people that have expressed this are either working on other aspects of their own patches or just other miscellaneous things in general, so it's possible that having only to take care of aspect of it for an otherwise functioning, basically communal (at this point) patch might "encourage" them.

  c. Similarly, people have been trying to get the AI to learn to mount monsters (read: Chocobos), so it serves the same point there as a sort of testing ground.

  d. In a far less important but still semi-valid point, some monsters can also be used as stepping stones, which is something humans can't be used for at all. Not much, but still something, especially on some of the more cluttered/clustered maps.

  e. It would give something for Monster Talk to rather than be mockingly there, gathering dust. Similarly, it would make primary Mediators more valuable rather than just having Talk Skill be used more as a secondary only.

  f. Similarly would give Steal Heart a bit of boost, though it's arguable whether that's a good thing or not.


Admittedly, some people just want to use monsters and while that's not exactly a good enough reason, we also shouldn't outright dismiss them as you seem to be doing.

That said, I also wouldn't mind perhaps focusing on adding more human classes before that. First, however, we need to make sure that ones we have now are equally usable rather than somewhat conspicuously lopsided, if not as egregious as vanilla or 1.3.

Hell, I'd probably be the first person behind adding a usable Blue Mage class if people really wanted to "use" monsters.

@Dia
The thing with Dia is that, it would be good if it were like unfury, but currently it's faith. And when you are build for DPS, you are building damage against melee units most of the time, since none of the mages can have armors without equip armor and tanky melee units tend to have 40 faith and 40 fury. So of course you are going to take unfaith skills instead of Dia.

*castrate*

I can't recall if I've ever directly replied to Shade before, at least via quote. First time for almost everything I suppose:


1. Dia: Dia is already good. In fact, I'd argue it's too good for how little it costs, even if it's not outright broken and it's on the "wrong" set, though that's probably what keeps its overpowered aspect from being as apparent. That said, despite disagreeing with you most of your reasoning, I concur that it would perhaps be better as going off of Unfury. Not that Priests need to become better at attacking, though.


2. Monsters and Space: Not exactly sure what monster drafts you're remembering/mentioning, but as I did with Raven, I'm calling bullshit on the space thing. Considering we "only" have 20 classes at now, one of which, Mime, doesn't even have skills at all, we have tons of space left. Even counting the like half-a-dozen skills that are weapon procs only, ARENA has left over space from all Special characters & units, all Lucavi and all monsters. That easily has to be 150+ spaces, which means that "at worst" we could "only" give 16 monsters 9 skills if we really, really wanted to.

Yeah, we're totally strapped for space right now.


3. Holy & Raise 2 needing To take more MP: Agreed.


4. Carbunkle needing to take more MP: Kinda agreed, if only because I haven't seen it used more than twice. Admittedly, I'm terribly behind on matches. So perhaps 5 MP does seem a bit cheap. Then again, it does have to compete with Angel Song, which costs 5 MP as well and hits the entire map.


5. Demi spells getting buffed Giving Demi 1 AoE 3? Hell no. Same with giving Demi 2, even if it were lowered to 50%, AoE 2. Time Magic might not be used much for damage, but it's not supposed to be; even then, though, it's already being used half of the time for damage since after Haste it sees use, "if only" because of Slow (2), Comet and Sinkhole. Guess what. Two of those do damage, even if one of them is conditional and the other is fixed; Balance is also somewhat used, but it's infrequent since it's inaccurate (which it should be) and depends on higher HP units, which tend to have lower MA & MP and vice versa.

Both Demis see seldom use more a) Dark is absorbed so often as to often not be worth it unless you're absorbing it yourself and b) Demi 2 is rather inaccurate at present due to its sheer power. Still, they're used more than Lich because they can be absorbed and Dark-absorption really doesn't need a boost. Besides, Immobilize/Don't Move is getting strengthened definitely at least and while Stop is getting a bit of an indirect nerf due to Geomancy, it's still dangerous.

So Time Magic still has more things than "just" Haste (2), especially when (more than) half of one's skill set being used semi-regularly is more than a few other classes can claim at present.


I'll leave the sword talk for later since my computer decided to be utterly slow.

That said, I don't agree with CT5Holy's versions being mostly compatible with Two Swords. We hardly need Ninja to become the best all melee weapons that use PA sans Axes and Knightswords; same with Two Hands and Samurai, though in that case it would be Knives rather than Axes that would be exempt alongside Knightswords.

As for Raven's, at this point the ones that stand out as the most objectionable are Two Hands-compatible Blood Sword and Lionheart's PA +2 and superior WP when it can also be used with Two Hands.

Still, I'll talk about those in a separate post.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Eternal on May 20, 2012, 11:15:03 PM
@Paladins: It wouldn't affect themselves.

@Demi: I think it'd be interesting if Demi had a chance to proc Slow or Immobilize. </two_cents>
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: TrueLight on May 20, 2012, 11:31:08 PM
Probability a bad idea, but it seems that Wizards need something...that can't be reflected. How about bringing back Meteor? Most of the Wizard skillset (with the exception of Flare) can be reduced with Venetian Shield/White Robe. Giving them this skill would allow some more diversity and an overall, better unit. Also, the AOE and damage would be somewhat moderate in order to maintain some balance. This skill would be a quick spell that does decent damage and a great anti-sandbag tool, while at the same time, ignoring any element absorption.

As for a water skill, how about something like Tidal Wave. This spell would be rather quick and deal damaage around a level 2 spell. We could replace something like Poison since not many people seem fond of it, but that's just me.  Perhaps more people will be using some water absorption teams. For animation, we could use the Leviathan spell animation without the Leviathan. 
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on May 20, 2012, 11:45:09 PM
That said, I don't agree with CT5Holy's versions being mostly compatible with Two Swords. We hardly need Ninja to become the best all melee weapons that use PA sans Axes and Knightswords; same with Two Hands and Samurai, though in that case it would be Knives rather than Axes that would be exempt alongside Knightswords.

As for Raven's, at this point the ones that stand out as the most objectionable are Two Hands-compatible Blood Sword and Lionheart's PA +2 and superior WP when it can also be used with Two Hands.

Reply to other shit later, busy right now, but;

Any Sword-bearing class (Squire, Geomancer especially with its proposed stat edits, etc.) will do more damage with Two Swords than a Ninja will using Equip Light Blade and the same Swords because Ninja has inferior PA.  An Equip Light Blade Ninja won't be used for its DPS alone.  A Ninjato-bearing Ninja (or a Climhazzard + offhand weapon bearing) Ninja with Attack UP also does more DPS with Attack UP than a Sword-bearing Ninja with Equip Light Blade does.  All this does is make Equip X skills on Ninjas somewhat appealing, resulting in a larger number of potential Ninja setups and adding more options to the game.  Mine focused more on having some that worked with Two Hands both for promoting the Two Hands skill and for promoting Equip Light Blade Samurai, on top of the Katana edits promoting basic melee Samurai.  (In fact, the Tactician Blade I whipped up is actually meant to primarily allow Geomancers to hit 5 Move and 5 Jump, coinciding with FFMaster's idea for buffing Geomancer.  So you get the buffed bases and the option for more Move range, in the same way that many Spears have SPD boosts to both promote Equip Spear and allow you a large range of options with your Lancers.)

Blood Sword - Note 0 W-EV.  You want to Two Hands it, you get some OK damage, but you get no evasion unless you give up power to run a Mantle, meaning it's a very all-in strategy.

Lionheart - It could probably go to 11 WP, but the main idea is to be stronger than a Two Swords Platinum Sword to again promote the Two Hands option over the Two Swords one, and to make another valid one-hand + Shield option alongside Ice Brand and Tactician Blade.


@TrueLight, I recommend following the conversation a bit more, Venetian Shield is going to hell, Wizard is getting some Water spells that will either be non-Reflectable or have Short CT in trade for a high MP cost along with an extra point of base MA.  Meteor's not really needed.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: The Damned on May 21, 2012, 05:38:52 AM
(Ugh. I missed a colon and some other stuff after all that proof-reading? Arrgh.... Let's see if I can avoid fucking up for once this time.)

Before I forget again, I should ask something: Are "we" going to let all Black Magic spells be subject to M-EV with Tier 4 spells probably dying and becoming (un-Reflectable) Water? Or are we just going to let Tier 3 spells ignore M-EV while being still subject to Reflect now that they're the "strongest"?

(Let it be known I support the latter.)

Now, as to let all quotes aspects of this post be about Swords, I'll just answer Eternal here:

1. Immobilizing Paladins: Oh. I can completely get behind that, then. I'd honestly rather that than "Blightbane", actually, but I'm fine with giving the Poison technique a chance and Time Mage's Don't Move is most likely getting a boost anyway.


2. Demi having the chance to Slow or Immobilize: It would make sense, though giving it the chance to Slow might make the AI over-prioritize it and giving it the chance to add Immobilize would somewhat step on Don't Move's toes. That said, given Don't Move's AoE would now trump both Demi spells', maybe Immobilize would be doable; after all, it's priority isn't nearly as high for the AI as Slow. Then again, the same lackluster priority might just mean that AI never uses Don't Move if Demi ends up having a chance to cause Immobilize; I'm not sure.


And now for Swords. I'll do CT5Holy's first because they are both fewer in number and more problematic to me.

...Actually, I'll answer Raven's last post first since I need to clarify what I meant about not wanting almost everything PA & melee-based to be compatible with (innate) Two Swords:

Reply to other shit later, busy right now, but;

Any Sword-bearing class (Squire, Geomancer especially with its proposed stat edits, etc.) will do more damage with Two Swords than a Ninja will using Equip Light Blade and the same Swords because Ninja has inferior PA.  An Equip Light Blade Ninja won't be used for its DPS alone.  A Ninjato-bearing Ninja (or a Climhazzard + offhand weapon bearing) Ninja with Attack UP also does more DPS with Attack UP than a Sword-bearing Ninja with Equip Light Blade does.  All this does is make Equip X skills on Ninjas somewhat appealing, resulting in a larger number of potential Ninja setups and adding more options to the game.  Mine focused more on having some that worked with Two Hands both for promoting the Two Hands skill and for promoting Equip Light Blade Samurai, on top of the Katana edits promoting basic melee Samurai.  (In fact, the Tactician Blade I whipped up is actually meant to primarily allow Geomancers to hit 5 Move and 5 Jump, coinciding with FFMaster's idea for buffing Geomancer.  So you get the buffed bases and the option for more Move range, in the same way that many Spears have SPD boosts to both promote Equip Spear and allow you a large range of options with your Lancers.)

Blood Sword - Note 0 W-EV.  You want to Two Hands it, you get some OK damage, but you get no evasion unless you give up power to run a Mantle, meaning it's a very all-in strategy.

Lionheart - It could probably go to 11 WP, but the main idea is to be stronger than a Two Swords Platinum Sword to again promote the Two Hands option over the Two Swords one, and to make another valid one-hand + Shield option alongside Ice Brand and Tactician Blade.

I should probably try to do a post just for TL;DR changes since more people keep falling behind and I'm the least busy of everyone. I'll do it later, though, if I decide it's even necessary at all; it might not be since FFMaster has kept up despite being busy and he's the most important.

However, let me digress from my possible elitism to actually reply to you:

1. Ninja's Not Being the Physically Strongest: I wasn't talking about Ninja flipping out and killing everyone through sheer power. I was talking about Ninja being the best because they have surety of hitting due to Hidden Knife. Yes, I shall concede that Ninja need to use Equip Light Blade to even equip Swords, but they still get Concentrate in addition to having innate Two Swords while the classes that you use as examples have to spring for Two Swords without getting Concentrate. As little PA as Ninja need have due to innate Two Swords, quite a few weapons don't really depend on power as much due to what they cause, so as long as they hit, which is what Hidden Knife allows. While I will no longer "rally" for that to lose more than its +1 Sp (for now), I'm still taking it into account as far as potential problems go given how commonly it is used.

That said, yes, I would agree Swords are better off as hodgepodge, which is part of the reason I disagree with CT5Holy's designs, but more on that in a bit.


2. Blood Sword: For now I'll just say that yes, I noticed the 0 W-EV%. I still have problems with it. I'll get into that below.


3. Lionheart: I was less worried about the WP and more the fact of the PA boost in relation to Two Hands. I'll get to that below as well.


However, first we'll do CT5Holy's stuff:


The swords could use revamping/buffs. They are also very underused. At the very least +1 WP on the non-Platinum Swords, but I think they should also be all (or at least most) 2H/2S-able. Granted, doing that would mean a revamp. I'll try to toss out some ideas... (note: numbers will likely need to be tweaked. Again, these are just ideas, and I'm bad at stuff at like this)

Blood Sword 11 WP, no 2H/2S, absorbs HP
Ancient Sword 9 WP, yes 2H/2S, 25% Petrify proc (actually, maybe 25% Don't Act proc would be better here? cause with 2S that's ~40% chance of Petrify)
Sleep Sword 9 WP, yes 2H/2S, 25% Sleep proc
Rune Blade 10 WP, yes 2H/2S, +2 MA
Platinum Sword 12 WP, yes 2H/2S
Diamond Sword 8 WP, yes 2H/2S, 50% Extra Attack
Coral Sword 8 WP, Water Element, yes 2H/2S, 50% Poison proc or 25% Suiton proc (actually, Suiton proc would make more sense on the flails. Except I think it's a bad idea either way since that could lead to a looooooot of damage. Thoughts?)
Ice Brand 10 WP, Ice Element, yes 2H/2S, 25% Ice 3 proc


Yeah, most Swords could probably stand +1 WP even though, as mediocre as they tend to be, they're so ubiquitous that they still see use unlike other, weaker categories of weapons have yet to be touched (much).

Still, I'll reply to the ideas here since I might as well explain why I don't want Two Hands and Two Swords on most Swords:


1. Blood Sword: Seems reasonable even though Blood Sword is already the most usable Sword outside of maybe Rune Blade.


2. Ancient Sword: While perhaps that might be true, a bigger problem is that Ancient Sword probably shouldn't be causing Petrify at all. Two Swords certainly doesn't help, even if having dual Swords is debatable versus just having Hidden Knife and an Ancient Sword in the off-hand so as to not potentially waste damage just in case the victim gets cured of Petrify. Regardless, I'd be "willing" to accept it as a Two Hands sword, but the Petrify aspect probably needs to die.

I also don't want Don't Act coming back on any weapon, especially since Swords are more widespread than Ninja Swords; Spell Edge already proved how fucking obnoxious that could be on a weapon with much more limited distribution and squishier units. This goes double if Concentrate is coming back.


3. Sleep Sword: Not really much to say here since the only difference is +1 WP, so I'll just say how I've long found it amusing how Sleep Sword is probably the worst weapon to use with Two Swords, at least two of them, and yet it's one of the few swords that can be so used. Two Hands seems quite superior for this weapon, yet ironically due to the sheer power it already potentially has/sets it up should Sleep go off, that too seems like overkill; at least Two Hands Sleep Sword is probably worth it though.


4. Rune Blade: Similarly, Two Hands would be good for this sword. However, Two Swords seems problematic on this for differing reasons than Sleep Sword: +4 MA seems really good--perhaps too good--on non-squishier units, even if it's already possible with Wizard Rod and Wizard Staff. However, I'm not "exactly" for those either and, again, almost no mage is going to use Two Swords over something like Magic Attack UP or Short Charge or even Half of MP.  If this was able to be used with Two Swords, then it seems almost necessary for it to only add +1 MA, which makes it worse over all, especially with the plans for the new Kiyomori.


5. Platinum Sword: Meh. I literally have nothing else to say about this.


6. Diamond Sword: Way too similar to Dual Cutters, which already don't see use. We don't need something potentially upstaging them again, especially since they're only getting slightly improved, even if they aren't exactly the same.


7. Coral Sword: 33% Poison would probably be best, especially if you're adamant about most swords being able to be used with Two Swords; I'm going to have agree that Suiton would probably be "bad". I actually like this Coral Sword the second best of your ideas...too bad I like Raven's Coral Sword idea better.


8. Ice Brand: I think the change to Ice Brand is most appropriate. I'm hesitant of Two Swords, but even here and even with Ice 3, it seems to matter little since Ninja have piss-poor MA; it might be problematic on Squires and Geomancers, though.


Not bad for a first draft, but I concur with Raven that Swords should be hodgepodge in their approaches, partly because of their distribution:

Herp Swords Derp.


I'll try to be thorough in my reasons for bringing up Blood Sword and Lionheart specifically above. Don't blame me if I half-ass everything else, though, especially with the way that this computer is still acting:


1. Tri-Edge: Certainly an interesting idea, even if being part Fire is doubtless going to screw it over due to Black Costume's popularity. Speaking of screwing over, while I understand what you're going for with Separate, Random would be better and cause it to occur more often, especially at 33%; otherwise, the proc would be more akin to 8.25%--33/4--unless procs are exempting from the quartering that Separate unfortunately does. As faux compensation for that, perhaps lower the WP to 9 to further the theme of threes? Otherwise, I do like this a bit, I'm just...dubious about it because of the Fire aspect, but it's not like everyone wears those all the time. Alternately, increase its WP to 12 and drop being able to be used with Two Swords, partly because I do realize that they can be absorbed by the two other pieces of Absorb Clothing that aren't Earth Clothes.


2. Tactician Blade: For the record since you mentioned it earlier, I'm fine with this. I just don't think Geomancer should have Move 5 for reasons I already stated. This, though, is fine.


3. Parry Edge: I'm also fine with this I guess, even as annoying as 25% W-EV on such commonly available weapon might be with good WP; at least Main Gauche's WP is piss-poor and most jobs that get it can't use it with a Shield automatically. So this being able to be used with Two Swords kinda bugs me. I'd be up for getting rid of that while still allowing it to be used with Two Hands and potentially upping its W-EV to 30% as recompense, though Two Swords isn't exactly the end of the world on this thing.


4. Moonlight: Blade Beam does what exactly? The same thing as Balance only it's not avoidable or affected by MA or Faith, correct? Yeah...I don't know how I feel about that considering how I feel about (current) "Shock"-based techniques in general, 0 W-EV% aside. That said, I suppose the 0 W-EV% does kinda make up for it, even if it's not forced Two Hands. I'd say only 33% chance though if it can be Two Handed, but again that's me erring on the side of caution, especially with the ever-increasing amount of changes.


5. Blood Sword: Okay, so here's my problem with thing being able to be used with Two Hands despite the 0% W-EV: all drain techniques currently heal 100% of the damage they inflict. Considering that Blood Sword already does decent damage & is already the best sword and that AI can't see reactions & has been seen repeatedly to stupidly, physically attack with flimsy mages that have MP left, this thing seems like it would get really ugly, really quickly with something as simple as Counter & Two Hands; by "best" here, I mean the one most worth using if one had to use a Sword to physically attack, even though Rune Blade is probably the most diverse for other things due to +2 MA. If it wasn't for that, if the drain was between 30-50% percent, then I could completely get behind it having Two Hands. At present though, I'm sorry but I have to say no; "having" to use a mantle isn't exactly selling on that.


6. Coral Sword: If it wasn't for Frog probably dispelling on death now, then I might still have oppose this despite Frog being so unlikely to occur. That said, I really like this now, so...yeah. Good job.


7. Ancient Sword: Meh. The Petrify aspect probably just needs to die. I'll try to think of something that's less like a "You're better off dead 20% of the time". I'm tempted to say just give it Stop, but that's not much better.


8. Sleep Sword: What I said to CT5Holy kind applies here, though I'm not sure how I feel about the lowered chance to Sleep.


9. Platinum Sword: Still utterly apathetic to this, though I'll say in that in the case of your swords, it's decidedly inferior to Lionheart on the Two Hands front, so it being able to be used with Two Hands is pointless.


10. Shieldrender: I rather like this. Not much more to say besides that.


11. Ice Brand: I'm not really sure about whether I like this version better or CT5Holy's to be honest. I'll need to think on it more.


12. Rune Blade: Again, see what I said to CT5Holy.


13. Lionheart: My problem with this is lesser than Blood Sword, I suppose, but still something I'd rather avoid: Wouldn't using this with Two Hands essentially mean this gave +4 PA? That seems a bit...much, especially since it's only two slots being used as opposed to having to use other +PA gear, though of course you could still use that, upping it even more.... But, yeah, I don't think a mere WP drop will help deter that.


14. Ultima Weapon: I guess this is fine. It's been forever since Ultima's been used, though, so I'm not exactly sure how often it "should" trigger.


I'll try to think of something to turn Ancient Sword into--I think I have an idea already. However, I otherwise have little interest in Swords, at least presently.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Celdia on May 21, 2012, 10:37:22 AM
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Gaignun on May 22, 2012, 05:46:46 AM
Mind if I bring the discussion back to poison for a bit?  I took a few minutes to collate the changes related to poison that were proposed:

Quote
Add: Wretched Blade (Weapon Element, PA * WP, 6 MP, +Poison, 1 AoE, Vert 1, NoSelf, 250 JP)
Change: Hawkseye (+Proc: Poison/Oil)
Change: Poison (AoE +1, Vert +1)
Change: Wiznaibus (+25% Poison, still damages HP.)
Poison Bow (+2 WP)

I'm glad to see how poison is being put to greater use.  However, I am wary about how these changes will meld with poison lasting beyond death.  The point of making poison persist is to encourage people to cure it before the poisoned unit dies, right?  I foresee two skills in the above list that will make pushing players toward poison management feel more like pushing them off of a cliff:

Wretched blade: An AoE, weapon elemental physical attack that inflicts poison 100% of the time.  This is grand cross without the self-heal.  The AI loves to use Grand Cross; it will love this, too.  Teams fully equipped to cure poison have enough trouble cleansing the 100% poison from Kiyomori.  That this has potential to deal heavy damage in addition to 100% poison (remember that it takes the weapon's element, so it can be boosted by element strengthening and oil) will only compound this difficulty.  Thus, I am led to believe that Wretched Blade is too powerful to apply the new version of poison.

My proposal: Remove +Poison.  Alternatively, have it add poison at low (20-33%) probability.

Wiznaibus: 25% chance of inflicting every opposing unit with poison.  This amounts to:

68% chance of inflicting at least one unit with poison;
26% chance of inflicting at least two units with poison.

If Wiznaibus is mimed (as it often is), the odds become 90% and 44%, respectively.  Bear in mind that Wiznaibus targets the entire field, so this skill has the highest likelihood of inflicting poison on units spread far apart.  This means that one turn will be need to be devoted to cleanse each unit of poison.  And since Wiznaibus targets the entire field, dancers can effortlessly continue poisoning units, thereby putting the opposing team in a laborious status-healing loop.

My proposal: Remove Wiznaibus' ability to be mimed.  I have nothing against buffing Wiznaibus.  Dancers need it.  On the other hand, I do not like full-map AoE skills on principle because their boundary between "useless" and "broken" is razor thin.  The skills need to be kept weak because the opposing team has no way of avoiding their effects, yet if they're kept too weak, nobody uses them.  That's why I am treading lightly with changes to Wiznaibus.

My proposal will give the opposing team a chance to manage the poison.  Forcing your opponent to cleanse poison once every 6 clock ticks will put your opponent's healers under mild stress.  Forcing your opponent to cleanse it twice will put them under great stress.  However, the odds are low enough to avoid breaking your opponent's management capabilities.  (And by "breaking" I mean making poison management impossible.)  90% and 44% odds, however, won't.   Teams without poison healing are going to get punished all the same, so the "+Poison" buff is still going to work.

Poison: Will have 2 AoE and 3 vert with the change.  I am less worried about this than Wretched Blade and Wiznaibus because it (a) doesn't deal immediate damage and (b) isn't full-map, persisting AoE.  With that being said, the Poison spell's current Y value is so high (115!) that it hits just about every target.  Its Y value was set this high to entice people to use it.  Nobody did.  Now, with 2 AoE and an accompanying Poison buff, the spell stands to have this value lowered.  75, the same value for Time Magic's Don't Move, seems fair.  Black Magic is being taken in good directions with "back" spells, water spells, status infliction, and the removal of Venetian Shields.  We don't need to add to this with a wildly functional Poison spell.  Let's lower its Y value, then raise it later if need be.

On the subject of Wizards, does anyone have a thematic status effect that the tier 1 water spell can inflict?  +20% faith would make for a nice, albeit inefficient, way to topple 40 Faith units.

Finally, what do people think of changing Cherche and Setiemson?  I think that they are too useful at the moment.  Sure, accessories are meant to be useful, but no accessory is useful against roughly half of every attack in the game apart from these two.  Pair these accessories with their complementary (Magic) Defense UP and you have yourself an ultimate defense against HP damage.  I fear that this perma-defense will become worse with Warpath, behind which players can comfortably boost their Fury to 100.  (Holy march won't be as bad, as units using it must expose themselves to either status effects by equipping Setiemson or magic damage by equipping a mantle.)  The perfumes steal the thunder of the Protect and Shell spells, as well.  I say we demote "Always: Protect/Shell" to "Init: Protect/Shell" in exchange for some minor buffs, like +1 PA/MA.  When you consider that Power Wrist and Genji Gauntlet give identical stat boosts with a humble +15% EV, these changes don't seem so egregious.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on May 22, 2012, 10:24:02 AM
Deal with replying to The Damned after I get back from my doctor's appointment.

@Gaignun:

Re: Wretched Blade - I've always felt the Poison proc on this skill was pointless as it's already a great DPS move, as you've pointed out.  I wouldn't be against removing Poison from it at all.  The person who pushed for having Poison on it was FDC, and it's always felt both non-fitting and rather pointless to be putting Poison on a high-DPS move to me anyway.  It also doesn't fit the Paladin flavor much at all.

Re: Wiznaibus - I'd rather further lower the %rate of Poison on Wiznaibus to 10% or 15% than remove Mime.  The entire point of this upgrade to Wiznaibus is to buff Miming teams.  I've mentioned this in replies to The Damned, but those get so long I don't begrudge people forgetting things: When we thinktank changes, usually it follows thought lines of "Mimes are cool, how can we make Mimes have more stuff to do?", "Undead are cool, how can we throw people more toys for Undead teams?", etc.  This again started as one of FDC's changes, though he originally wanted 50%.  I talked him down to 25%, but I'd also be more comfortable with 15% myself on both Wiznaibus and Life Song's procs - 15% v the whole field for a purely bonus effect is still nice, even without Miming, and it buffs the skills in a way other than just outright cranking their Ys.

Re: Poison - I'd be fine with lowering the Y value to 75-80 for the reason you mentioned.  It's still a good base value with the "new" Faith system, and Wizards do have the highest base MA for pulling their spells off.  Your rates to hit should still be good and the area is wide.  Like you said, it can be buffed a bit more if needed, but more powerful Poison Status + vastly superior range should more than offset the Y dip for now.

Re: Water 2 proc - Faith would be /interesting/, but Fire 2 already procs Oil, which does the same thing by doubling damage to every Element in the Wizard's skillset.  The only difference is that Water 2 would buff Poison, Death, and Flare as well - but it's still basically using the same design space.  I'm not sure what proc Water really /could/ have honestly without breaking the theme of having X 2 procs each being different and effective against basically any unit to at least some degree, but Faith doesn't fit for me because Oil already does it.

Re: Cherche and Setiemson - I need to disagree here for a couple reasons.  They were already Initial: Protect/Shell at one point (and I THINK even had the +1 PA / +1 MA, but my memory may escape me) and literally no one used them, from long before I started playing Arena at 1.31-1.32ish to now.  This is the first time I've seen those items even used, and they don't seem to be common to the point of metagame-warping.  The combo just gives people a stronger alternative to Unyielding at the cost of your Accessory slot, which usually means losing Initial: Reraise and being forced to go without it at all unless you waste your Reaction on Dragon Spirit or something.  This is also the reason many Accessories are being buffed - Accessories are generally meant to be great, but in Arena, the ones that aren't great suck HARD, which is why things like the Mantle buff are occurring.  We also know Power Wrist and Genji Gauntlet suck ass, and there were items that we'd devised in our IRC chat to replace them, but FDC didn't add them to his list and I currently don't remember them.  I'll try to remember them and add them to the list next time I compile a change list.  As for Cherche and Setiemson though, like I said, this is the first time anyone's really even bothered to use them since the change from Initial: to Always: was either 1.36 or 1.37, and before I took a hiatus from FFH a month or two ago no one used them and the version number was still the same.  Let's buff the other Accessories first and not freak out because the thing that was just buffed is actually getting used.

Speaking of, I should do another change list soon so all this new shit can be shoved in and kept track of alongside everything else.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Fantactic1316 on May 22, 2012, 05:37:38 PM
I'd like Wiznaibus/Poison at 19-20%. It might actually make Wiznaibus a properly useful offensive skill for once.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: The Damned on May 22, 2012, 07:59:21 PM
(Heh, you have a doctor's appointment as well? Mine is later in the day, so I probably won't be here when you reply unless you're back already.)

I'm still not sure how I feel about Ice Brand, admittedly.

However, I believe that I've decided on a potentially decent Ancient Sword replacement/re-tooling...even if it's semi-whoring myself out since it's basically the design I have for Embargo's Ancient Sword at present:


Ancient Sword: 9 WP; 15% W-EV; Element: Earth; 33% Immobilize; Two Hands: Yes; Two Swords: No.


Basically, it allows the user to stay in the opponent's face should the infliction go off while getting rid of that pesky Petrify aspect. Similarly, it simultaneously both has superior qualities to Ninja Edge with its evade and potentially greater power yet also has inferior qualities, such as lower initial WP and being unable to be used with Two Swords, to avoid outright obviating Ninja Edge. Additionally, its elemental quality gives Paladins another source of Earth-based Grand Cross without stepping on any of the other Earth element weapons; Earth element also gives it the same double-edge with regards to Ninja Edge as it is potentially a boon in terms of Strengthen, but also possibly allows it to be absorbed and, in the case of Grand Cross, avoided. The 33% chance is to be more likely than a single Ninja Edge (especially since it can be used with Hidden Knife) at causing Don't Move, but lower than two of them used together.

Please discuss.



Seriously, Delta-Edge has potential, though I do rather like Tri-Edge, partly because of the Tri-Ace thing. Still, I had never realized how often Delta Attack (http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Delta_Attack) has shown up until now.

Mind if I bring the discussion back to poison for a bit?  I took a few minutes to collate the changes related to poison that were proposed:

I'm glad to see how poison is being put to greater use.  However, I am wary about how these changes will meld with poison lasting beyond death.  The point of making poison persist is to encourage people to cure it before the poisoned unit dies, right?  I foresee two skills in the above list that will make pushing players toward poison management feel more like pushing them off of a cliff:

*amputate*

Yeah, the buffs for Poison-related abilities do seem a bit overzealous at present, but that's only natural with all the other changes happening. Being "natural" doesn't necessarily excuse it though:


1. "Blightbane": *dodges objects thrown by Raven*

Yeah, I haven't exactly liked this from the beginning on a mechanical or "flavorful" level. ARENA's Paladins, just like my own, do rather need another physical attack at present though. So do we just give them a close-range, possibly Holy-element AoE attack that doesn't hit the self and makes up for them losing Dia? Or do we give them something different that also makes use of status, though something more along the lines of Immobilize or something else that doesn't last beyond the grave?


2. Wiznaibus & Mime: Dancers are already worse than Bards, at least when it comes to the skills that are actually (usable) in Dance at present. I'd rather not screw them out of being able to have Wiznaibus be Mimicked as well.

That said, yeah, Wiznaibus definitely needs less of a chance of Poison, at least if it's still not going to be physically evadable and possibly even if it was. As such, I agree with Raven that it's chance to Poison should probably be between 10%-15%. I don't have time at present to be doing the math for how that statistically improves (read: lowers) things, though.

Of course, there's the still the separate question of whether the opposing AI would even attempt to remove Poison while Wiznaibus is being Danced no matter how low the Poison chance is if (old) Nameless Dance is any indication....


3. Wizard's Poison: What Raven said. Y becoming 75 is more than fair considering the AoE boost and how Poison is a lot deadlier than Don't Move in most instances.


4. Water 2 Causing 20% Faith: As "interesting" as it would be, it would undermine the whole point of trying to use the Back abilities/spells, even if not entirely, on top of it semi-competing with Oil as Raven pointed out. Unfortunately, there aren't really any negative statuses left that are temporary, though I suppose if you wanted to "punish" low-Faith units, which tend to have higher Brave/Fury/Whatever, then Sleep might be plausible. Too bad that lasts way too long at present and would thus likely end up as being overpowered.

As much it "breaks" the theme and parity, if the Water spells really do end up all ignoring Reflect, then I'm really not sure they "need" anything.


5. Cherche & Setiemson: What Raven said with regards to this I also agree with since, yes, they literally weren't used more than a dozen times before the change to this version; IIRC, Cherche added +1 PA and Setiemson added +1 MA when they were Initial: Protect and Initial: Shell, respectively. As such, giving them +1 PA & +1 MA wouldn't exactly make people want to use them if you changed them back to Initial, especially when Diamond Armlet sees no use despite not getting screwed over by Dispel Magic; I'd point out Cursed Ring, but that has other issues that have nothing to do with the stat boosts.

They're currently seeing so much use partly because at least half of the other accessories are rather...unusable or, at least, not really worth it at present when compared to them or Angel Ring or Chantage or Reflect Ring or maybe Dracula Mantle and a few others. So let's boost the other things first and then, perhaps if they're still as obnoxious next version, then think about how or if to "nerf" them; it's arguable that they'll still be fine since, really, it's not like many people were using Magic Defend UP or Defend UP before this either when/while Unyielding was around.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: CT5Holy on May 22, 2012, 08:43:24 PM
Cherche and Setiemson were indeed +1 PA/MA, Initial: Protect/Shell at one point, and yeah, they weren't used.

Agree with getting rid of Poison from Wretched Blade. I think it should be weapon element to give it more opportunities for use, as opposed to just Holy element.

What if we gave Water a 20-25% chance of dispelling positive status? Is that possible?
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on May 22, 2012, 08:52:25 PM
Before I forget again, I should ask something: Are "we" going to let all Black Magic spells be subject to M-EV with Tier 4 spells probably dying and becoming (un-Reflectable) Water? Or are we just going to let Tier 3 spells ignore M-EV while being still subject to Reflect now that they're the "strongest"?

I had a long reply to this but it went into the aether.  Basically no because that shits on the entire design direction of this update.  You want no M-EV, use Flare.

1. Ninja's Not Being the Physically Strongest: I wasn't talking about Ninja flipping out and killing everyone through sheer power. I was talking about Ninja being the best because they have surety of hitting due to Hidden Knife. Yes, I shall concede that Ninja need to use Equip Light Blade to even equip Swords, but they still get Concentrate in addition to having innate Two Swords while the classes that you use as examples have to spring for Two Swords without getting Concentrate. As little PA as Ninja need have due to innate Two Swords, quite a few weapons don't really depend on power as much due to what they cause, so as long as they hit, which is what Hidden Knife allows. While I will no longer "rally" for that to lose more than its +1 Sp (for now), I'm still taking it into account as far as potential problems go given how commonly it is used.

Hidden Knife has no real WP and a shitty DMG formula, and you give up your Support to Equip Light Blade and a single Sword so your DPS is in the shitter even if Ninja DID have respectable PA if that's your setup.  If you're looking for a proc combo, your best bet is still the Platina Dagger for Climhazzard since it effectively doubles your DPS, and does better ally combos, and allows you to use a more relevant Support skill related to erm, basically any role your Ninja wants to be doing.
1. Tri-Edge: Certainly an interesting idea, even if being part Fire is doubtless going to screw it over due to Black Costume's popularity. Speaking of screwing over, while I understand what you're going for with Separate, Random would be better and cause it to occur more often, especially at 33%; otherwise, the proc would be more akin to 8.25%--33/4--unless procs are exempting from the quartering that Separate unfortunately does. As faux compensation for that, perhaps lower the WP to 9 to further the theme of threes? Otherwise, I do like this a bit, I'm just...dubious about it because of the Fire aspect, but it's not like everyone wears those all the time. Alternately, increase its WP to 12 and drop being able to be used with Two Swords, partly because I do realize that they can be absorbed by the two other pieces of Absorb Clothing that aren't Earth Clothes.

It is an odd weapon, indeed, and yes, the Separate %hit rate could probably be boosted to 50% or so.  It was mostly a concept weapon, but I do admit being blocked by everything that's not Earth Clothes is going to basically make it worthless.  I will think up something else because I don't think this design can be saved without being maimed beyond all recognition anyway.

3. Parry Edge: I'm also fine with this I guess, even as annoying as 25% W-EV on such commonly available weapon might be with good WP; at least Main Gauche's WP is piss-poor and most jobs that get it can't use it with a Shield automatically. So this being able to be used with Two Swords kinda bugs me. I'd be up for getting rid of that while still allowing it to be used with Two Hands and potentially upping its W-EV to 30% as recompense, though Two Swords isn't exactly the end of the world on this thing.

Not gonna lie, a main point of this Sword was to overcome the Two Swords evasion weakness at the cost of WP on Sword-bearing classes at the cost of WP, and give Shield-bearers a Defender-like option to go with.  (The main difference is a Shield-bearer gets M-EV, a Two Swords bearer does not, and we're pushing to make M-EV more relevant after all.)  It might need to lose 1 WP, but otherwise, that's the idea.

4. Moonlight: Blade Beam does what exactly? The same thing as Balance only it's not avoidable or affected by MA or Faith, correct? Yeah...I don't know how I feel about that considering how I feel about (current) "Shock"-based techniques in general, 0 W-EV% aside. That said, I suppose the 0 W-EV% does kinda make up for it, even if it's not forced Two Hands. I'd say only 33% chance though if it can be Two Handed, but again that's me erring on the side of caution, especially with the ever-increasing amount of changes.

Yes, Blade Beam is an unavoidable Shock!  This is again like Blood Sword in that it's meant to be an all-or-nothing weapon if you Two Hands it, or a perked weapon with a small drawback if you one-hand it.  It is stronger than Platina Dagger DPS wise and can be used with Two Hands, but cannot be Two Swords for the double Platina Dagger combo, hence why I still went with 50%.  It's a strong proc - but so is the Climhazzard proc, and unlike Climhazzard, you only get one shot here.  This just makes up for it by being slightly better as a weapon when you don't proc.

5. Blood Sword: Okay, so here's my problem with thing being able to be used with Two Hands despite the 0% W-EV: all drain techniques currently heal 100% of the damage they inflict. Considering that Blood Sword already does decent damage & is already the best sword and that AI can't see reactions & has been seen repeatedly to stupidly, physically attack with flimsy mages that have MP left, this thing seems like it would get really ugly, really quickly with something as simple as Counter & Two Hands; by "best" here, I mean the one most worth using if one had to use a Sword to physically attack, even though Rune Blade is probably the most diverse for other things due to +2 MA. If it wasn't for that, if the drain was between 30-50% percent, then I could completely get behind it having Two Hands. At present though, I'm sorry but I have to say no; "having" to use a mantle isn't exactly selling on that.

1. Periods exist, use them.  I don't care if that sentence is grammatically correct, Jesus Christ.

2. You vastly undersell the AI with you "mages going in for melee while they can still cast" shtick, given that almost never happens in Arena due to the spells actually having manageable CTs.  The only time the AI really does that is when they can't cast before the turn resolves and they can't get outside the target's Move range, or if they can get the kill without spending MP, though sometimes they'll go for the Spell to kill anyway.  There's a huge reason Counter Blood Sword with Attack UP huge PA stacks doesn't already magically cripple mages and other "stupid AI that can't see Reactions" the way you describe - because the AI is far smarter than you seem to want to say it is, even if it can't see Counter.  As for it being "the best Sword", yeah, it's "the best" out of a bunch of terrible weapons that no one uses for the sake of their melee attack anyway.  At the behest of offending every person to ever read this thread and not regretting it at all, I must say that being the best retard in a giant mountain of retards doesn't make you great - at the end of the day, you're still a retard.  And that's basically Blood Sword's position.  It's "the best Sword" insomuch as "every other Sword sucks at DPS horribly other than maybe Ice Brand and at least this one gives some HP back.", and most Blood Sword users really don't hit very hard at all.  Even in FDC's team "Blood", the high-DPS Blood Sword Paladins didn't do an encouragingly large amount of DPS - that mostly came from the Bards that could swing out more than their own Max HP in Blood Harp damage, while the Paladins struggled to do even half that with a damage-boosting Support equipped to them.  (Not sure which had Overwhelm and which had Attack UP, though.)  As such, I really need to say that your concern in this case has shaky foundations.

7. Ancient Sword: Meh. The Petrify aspect probably just needs to die. I'll try to think of something that's less like a "You're better off dead 20% of the time". I'm tempted to say just give it Stop, but that's not much better.

There's nothing wrong with a weapon that has a powerful proc, bro.  See: Climhazzard, etc., which are often far more damning far more consistently than an Ancient Sword would be.  If every proc weapon were just boring shit like Slow, some really weak DPS move, etc., we'd just end up with either people ignoring them all and maxing DPS or people having 20+ minute slugfests with a bunch of gear that sucks.  Guess what, Arena went through both of those phases already, they both sucked.  Yeah, you get this odd thing called "lucky" when you Petrify someone with an Ancient Sword, but that's the entire point of a proc - sometimes you get lucky and shit goes your way, sometimes you don't, and that's the risk v reward.  You just seem to be outright against any powerful proc (Stop, Frog, Petrify, etc.) on basically any semi-common skill or weapon.  I'm not trying to be condescending or make fun of your nerfnerfnerf for once - actually go look at your post history, you've spoken out against almost every instance of adding Stop or Petrify to anything so far and seem to be striving to making them even less common than they already are, when they're really not all that common from non-dedicated moves to begin with.  (Though oddly, you seem to have no qualms with Sleep even though you're almost more guaranteed a kill from that than Stop.  Huh.)

8. Sleep Sword: What I said to CT5Holy kind applies here, though I'm not sure how I feel about the lowered chance to Sleep.

Sleep proc could probably be kept at 25%.  I forget why I lowered it.

9. Platinum Sword: Still utterly apathetic to this, though I'll say in that in the case of your swords, it's decidedly inferior to Lionheart on the Two Hands front, so it being able to be used with Two Hands is pointless.

It's pointless unless you're bad.  I am fully open to allowing people to be bad.

11. Ice Brand: I'm not really sure about whether I like this version better or CT5Holy's to be honest. I'll need to think on it more.

My main idea here was to keep Ice Brand Grand Cross a thing, since very few weapons I had were sitting in the no-Two Swords, no-Two Hands tier without being at least semi-gimmicky, and Ice Brand Grand Cross is one of the few instances where Swords can be shown as something other than suckage.  It basically fills the roles of "generic high DPS beater with no gimmick" and "Grand Cross love Sword" at the same time.


12. Rune Blade: Again, see what I said to CT5Holy.

If a mage wants +4 MA, they use dual Wizard Staff and get far better DPS than this.  Or you use two mages each with one Wizard Staff and one Gold Staff / Rainbow Staff.  Or if they're a Sage as they probably are, they spam Wizard Staff and Wizard Rod together because Sages have an OP gear pool.  The thing is, mages can do what you describe, and their damage formula is MA*WP, so they get a direct DPS boost from it, unlike dual Rune Blades.  Dual Rune Blades is a strictly inferior Dual Platinum Swords that allows the holder to use skills like Draw Out, Talk Skill, or Geomancy with at least a shred of competence, great for Geomancers (hey that class no one uses), or anything subbing the above skillsets.  It really doesn't make anything that already is good any better, and only opens new options up for people if they choose to pursue them.


13. Lionheart: My problem with this is lesser than Blood Sword, I suppose, but still something I'd rather avoid: Wouldn't using this with Two Hands essentially mean this gave +4 PA? That seems a bit...much, especially since it's only two slots being used as opposed to having to use other +PA gear, though of course you could still use that, upping it even more.... But, yeah, I don't think a mere WP drop will help deter that.

It's +4 PA insomuch as PA is doubled, but a WP drop will deter that horribly.  There's a reason the best DPS comes from having the PA and WP values be as close together as possible.  9*3 is only 27, but 6*6 is 36, after all.  Losing 1 WP will result in more of a damage drop than somehow making Lionheart only add 1.5 PA would, so it does similar to what you want (reigning it in a bit) without making it not do what I want it to do (be a good +PA stick that's usable without Two Hands).  While it probably could get away with only being +1 PA and still be usable to some level, with the vast increase in quality seen by every Sword here, a 12 WP +1 PA Sword that's only usable with Two Hands is pretty underwhelming in the long run.  It's also worth noting that the boost is only "doubled" for Attack calculation, and in many cases, you will want the 2 PA from Lionheart to do things other than Attack.

14. Ultima Weapon: I guess this is fine. It's been forever since Ultima's been used, though, so I'm not exactly sure how often it "should" trigger.

It's MA*9, making it close to a Doubleshot that goes off your MA score instead of your PA score.  Originally I was going to go all the way with the Doubleshot parody and make it 50%, but Ultima Weapon has 10 WP (v 7/8 on Dual Cutters and Bow Gun), has a better damage formula than Dual Cutters, and can be used with Two Hands.  Obviously Two Hands won't buff the proc damage, but it will still hurt like a bitch.




GODDAMNIT THE DAMNED STOP DOING THAT WHILE I AM TRYING TO POST.  CT5HOLY, YOU TOO.  I'LL REPLY TO YOUR SHITS LATER, CHRIST.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: The Damned on May 22, 2012, 10:29:50 PM
(Hmmm....I have about an hour left now before I have to go the doctor given that I couldn't do what I was trying to do, so I guess I can respond to Raven yet again, right?)

In my defense, my latest post doesn't really have anything that you really need address sans maybe Ancient Sword, and even that's not really important; for the record, didn't someone else already explain why Petrify is so bad as proc? (Also, didn't I say that I was comfortable with letting Ancient Sword cause Stop?)

1. Periods exist, use them.  I don't care if that sentence is grammatically correct, Jesus Christ.

Never! Grammatical atheism forever!

Alternately, "Problem? You mad?"

Cherche and Setiemson were indeed +1 PA/MA, Initial: Protect/Shell at one point, and yeah, they weren't used.

Agree with getting rid of Poison from Wretched Blade. I think it should be weapon element to give it more opportunities for use, as opposed to just Holy element.

What if we gave Water a 20-25% chance of dispelling positive status? Is that possible?

I don't think I'll even use a numerical list this time; time to whore multi-quotes:

Oh okay, good to know I'm not insane...well, not insane with regards to previous perfumes and that's good enough, right?

Well, I'd be all for "Wretched Blade"/"Blightbane" becoming generic, elemental-weapon damage, but then wouldn't it become basically inferior to Grand Cross?

Yeah, that should be easily doable given that all we have to do is give it the same ISC as Dispel Magic; why did you think we wouldn't able to do it?


Okay. I'll stop trolling Raven by not using periods (often).

I had a long reply to this but it went into the aether.  Basically no because that shits on the entire design direction of this update.  You want no M-EV, use Flare.

Oh, okay. I'm fine with that. I just want to have it be cleared up and be sure given how much formerdeathcorps apparently left out of his original post.

Hidden Knife has no real WP and a shitty DMG formula, and you give up your Support to Equip Light Blade and a single Sword so your DPS is in the shitter even if Ninja DID have respectable PA if that's your setup.  If you're looking for a proc combo, your best bet is still the Platina Dagger for Climhazzard since it effectively doubles your DPS, and does better ally combos, and allows you to use a more relevant Support skill related to erm, basically any role your Ninja wants to be doing.

Oh, I agree with this, though I'd argue that says more about Platina Dagger being at least somewhat overpowered than anything else. Still, I don't want to Platina Dagger to be nerfed (or at least, I don't think it's nearly as pressing a concern that it needs to be addressed before literally hundreds of other things), so meh. I'll agree to disagree.

[Tri-Edge] is an odd weapon, indeed, and yes, the Separate %hit rate could probably be boosted to 50% or so.  It was mostly a concept weapon, but I do admit being blocked by everything that's not Earth Clothes is going to basically make it worthless.  I will think up something else because I don't think this design can be saved without being maimed beyond all recognition anyway.

Very well.

Not gonna lie, a main point of [Parry Edge] was to overcome the Two Swords evasion weakness at the cost of WP on Sword-bearing classes at the cost of WP, and give Shield-bearers a Defender-like option to go with.  (The main difference is a Shield-bearer gets M-EV, a Two Swords bearer does not, and we're pushing to make M-EV more relevant after all.)  It might need to lose 1 WP, but otherwise, that's the idea.

Ah, I see. I'm fine with that, then. Not sure it even "needs" to lose 1 WP, but you'd know better than I would at this point, if I'm only because I'm too lazy to do the math for this while doing the math for other things.

Yes, Blade Beam is an unavoidable Shock!  [Moonlight] is again like Blood Sword in that it's meant to be an all-or-nothing weapon if you Two Hands it, or a perked weapon with a small drawback if you one-hand it.  It is stronger than Platina Dagger DPS wise and can be used with Two Hands, but cannot be Two Swords for the double Platina Dagger combo, hence why I still went with 50%.  It's a strong proc - but so is the Climhazzard proc, and unlike Climhazzard, you only get one shot here.  This just makes up for it by being slightly better as a weapon when you don't proc.

Meh, I guess. I just really don't like Shock-esque abilities, at least as they are now. Then again, given it's the AI, they'll see a lot less abuse than they would in human hands, so I suppose I'm more or less okay with that this dislike.

2. You vastly undersell the AI with you "mages going in for melee while they can still cast" shtick, given that almost never happens in Arena due to the spells actually having manageable CTs.  The only time the AI really does that is when they can't cast before the turn resolves and they can't get outside the target's Move range, or if they can get the kill without spending MP, though sometimes they'll go for the Spell to kill anyway.  There's a huge reason Counter Blood Sword with Attack UP huge PA stacks doesn't already magically cripple mages and other "stupid AI that can't see Reactions" the way you describe - because the AI is far smarter than you seem to want to say it is, even if it can't see Counter.

I suppose I should have said that was a minor thing issue, but I felt that sentence was already long enough; I'm not sure if that counts as "irony" or anything.

But, yeah, I know the AI isn't that dumb. I'm just saying it's potential problem, though admittedly minor compared to the issue you didn't (directly) answer: Drain attacks fully healing the HP damage they inflict. Bringing up Bloody Strings just reminds me how much they still manage to make Ramia Harp/Lamia Harp and Fairy Harp pointless despite their buffs.

As for it being "the best Sword", yeah, it's "the best" out of a bunch of terrible weapons that no one uses for the sake of their melee attack anyway.  At the behest of offending every person to ever read this thread and not regretting it at all, I must say that being the best retard in a giant mountain of retards doesn't make you great - at the end of the day, you're still a retard.  And that's basically Blood Sword's position.  It's "the best Sword" insomuch as "every other Sword sucks at DPS horribly other than maybe Ice Brand and at least this one gives some HP back.", and most Blood Sword users really don't hit very hard at all.  Even in FDC's team "Blood", the high-DPS Blood Sword Paladins didn't do an encouragingly large amount of DPS - that mostly came from the Bards that could swing out more than their own Max HP in Blood Harp damage, while the Paladins struggled to do even half that with a damage-boosting Support equipped to them.  (Not sure which had Overwhelm and which had Attack UP, though.)  As such, I really need to say that your concern in this case has shaky foundations.

See above. I know that Blood Sword is basically king of a crap category and it does less damage to Bloody Strings, which has superior range and often damage. That doesn't make me feel anymore comfortable being used with Two Hands while it drains as much as it deals.

There's nothing wrong with a weapon that has a powerful proc, bro.  See: Climhazzard, etc., which are often far more damning far more consistently than an Ancient Sword would be.  If every proc weapon were just boring shit like Slow, some really weak DPS move, etc., we'd just end up with either people ignoring them all and maxing DPS or people having 20+ minute slugfests with a bunch of gear that sucks.  Guess what, Arena went through both of those phases already, they both sucked.  Yeah, you get this odd thing called "lucky" when you Petrify someone with an Ancient Sword, but that's the entire point of a proc - sometimes you get lucky and shit goes your way, sometimes you don't, and that's the risk v reward.  You just seem to be outright against any powerful proc (Stop, Frog, Petrify, etc.) on basically any semi-common skill or weapon.  I'm not trying to be condescending or make fun of your nerfnerfnerf for once - actually go look at your post history, you've spoken out against almost every instance of adding Stop or Petrify to anything so far and seem to be striving to making them even less common than they already are, when they're really not all that common from non-dedicated moves to begin with.  (Though oddly, you seem to have no qualms with Sleep even though you're almost more guaranteed a kill from that than Stop.  Huh.)

Sigh. I don't exactly want to make my posts even longer, but if you're asking for clarification on my positions, then very well:

1. With regards to Petrify: I'm actually only against Petrify of all four negative statuses you proposed because, as someone pointed out earlier, it's often worse than Dead. Either you can heal or you can't and if you can't, then that unit is just gone. Poof. Bye. They might as well have been hit with something that Adds Crystal.

While I'm not going to go as far as saying we need to get rid of Oracle's Petrify, that at least a) can be reflected, b) can be evaded, c) isn't on a counter (like how Ancient Sword or old Carve Model can be), d) goes off Faith, which means it has trouble against low-faith units, and e) is capable of being stopped by Silence or Berserk. The two whole other instances of Petrify, including Ancient Sword, do damage in addition to Petrifying, meaning its "deader than dead" bonus is just a "neat" little bonus. That just...seems wrong.

Alternately, Petrify also has the problem of meanings pretty much jack-shit if you can cure like Esuna and Stigma Magic does. It basically just becomes a worse version of Stop in that case.

If Petrify itself were less...bipolar about how effective it was, then I would be a lot less "do not want" about it being applicable via things.


2. Petrify vs. Frog: With Frog being dispelled on death, I'm no longer nearly as opposed to it as I was. My comment on Coral Sword was more about how if it still wasn't able to be dispelled on death, then I'd be more against--probably would still allow it--because a Critical Frog that starts to flee probably isn't getting cured of Frog. Ever.

I'm just against multi-target Frog, and even that's kinda relaxed on things do relatively mediocre damage like Water Ball, which unlike Bio 2 can be absorbed. My comment about Bio 2 was more about how it pretty much trumps Bio 3 as it is now, though part of that has to do with Bio 3 being Dark element.

Also, Frog being curable at least lets damage be done to it the mean time unlike Petrify and it's less "this unit is gone now" with Dead dispelling it whereas Petrify still is.


3. Petrify versus Stop: Actually, as I said above, after you explained Stop better two pages back with regards to Hell Ivy and I remembered how little it lasts, I've become completely fine with it. I wouldn't at all object to Stop being on Ancient Sword over Petrify or Don't Move; it just never comes to mind for me.


4. Petrify vs. Sleep: That's probably because a) you have to build teams to take advantage of Sleep otherwise that extra damage is wasted since it doesn't trigger off magick and b) all weapons that proc Sleep are shitty. Granted, Ancient Sword isn't stellar right now, but Two Swords with Sleep Swords has the chance to backfire where as two Ancient Swords don't, so there's that as well.

I'd like Sleep to last a bit less and I've said before that Mimic Daravon kinda bugs me, but you say I ask for nerfs too much, so that's why I've said nothing about either of those.

Does that explain my caution a bit more reasonably?

Sleep proc could probably be kept at 25%.  I forget why I lowered it.

Shrug. I can't tell you.

Regardless, as I just said above, I'm fine with that.

It's pointless unless you're bad.  I am fully open to allowing people to be bad.

Heh. Fair enough.

My main idea here was to keep Ice Brand Grand Cross a thing, since very few weapons I had were sitting in the no-Two Swords, no-Two Hands tier without being at least semi-gimmicky, and Ice Brand Grand Cross is one of the few instances where Swords can be shown as something other than suckage.  It basically fills the roles of "generic high DPS beater with no gimmick" and "Grand Cross love Sword" at the same time.

I see. I still need time to think on it more, but this makes a bit more sense now.

If a mage wants +4 MA, they use dual Wizard Staff and get far better DPS than this.  Or you use two mages each with one Wizard Staff and one Gold Staff / Rainbow Staff.  Or if they're a Sage as they probably are, they spam Wizard Staff and Wizard Rod together because Sages have an OP gear pool.  The thing is, mages can do what you describe, and their damage formula is MA*WP, so they get a direct DPS boost from it, unlike dual Rune Blades.  Dual Rune Blades is a strictly inferior Dual Platinum Swords that allows the holder to use skills like Draw Out, Talk Skill, or Geomancy with at least a shred of competence, great for Geomancers (hey that class no one uses), or anything subbing the above skillsets.  It really doesn't make anything that already is good any better, and only opens new options up for people if they choose to pursue them.

What I said to CT5Holy already addressed all of this.

It's +4 PA insomuch as PA is doubled, but a WP drop will deter that horribly.  There's a reason the best DPS comes from having the PA and WP values be as close together as possible.  9*3 is only 27, but 6*6 is 36, after all.  Losing 1 WP will result in more of a damage drop than somehow making Lionheart only add 1.5 PA would, so it does similar to what you want (reigning it in a bit) without making it not do what I want it to do (be a good +PA stick that's usable without Two Hands).  While it probably could get away with only being +1 PA and still be usable to some level, with the vast increase in quality seen by every Sword here, a 12 WP +1 PA Sword that's only usable with Two Hands is pretty underwhelming in the long run.  It's also worth noting that the boost is only "doubled" for Attack calculation, and in many cases, you will want the 2 PA from Lionheart to do things other than Attack.

Hmm...I see. Still not comfortable, but much like Parry Edge, I can support this now.

It's MA*9, making it close to a Doubleshot that goes off your MA score instead of your PA score.  Originally I was going to go all the way with the Doubleshot parody and make it 50%, but Ultima Weapon has 10 WP (v 7/8 on Dual Cutters and Bow Gun), has a better damage formula than Dual Cutters, and can be used with Two Hands.  Obviously Two Hands won't buff the proc damage, but it will still hurt like a bitch.

Right. I'm fine with that. I just meant I honestly didn't remember.


Sorry for the laconic replies towards the end there, but I'm probably going to be late for my appointment now, so I can't proofread this either. Back in a couple of hours.




GODDAMNIT THE DAMNED STOP DOING THAT WHILE I AM TRYING TO POST.  CT5HOLY, YOU TOO.  I'LL REPLY TO YOUR SHITS LATER, CHRIST.
[/quote]
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on May 23, 2012, 12:11:34 AM
eah, I haven't exactly liked this from the beginning on a mechanical or "flavorful" level. ARENA's Paladins, just like my own, do rather need another physical attack at present though. So do we just give them a close-range, possibly Holy-element AoE attack that doesn't hit the self and makes up for them losing Dia? Or do we give them something different that also makes use of status, though something more along the lines of Immobilize or something else that doesn't last beyond the grave?

The point of Wretched Blade is that it's a Grand Cross that doesn't hit yourself.  This is actually amazing.  The best weapons you can really Grand Cross with are Excalibur, Blaze Gun (post-nerf), Ice Brand, and maybe 1-2 others I missed, because you hit yourself and are forced to run a Blind-blocking Absorption setup.  The fact it doesn't hit yourself means you lose out on your heal, but you can in turn use any weapon to attack with, including the incredibly high WP Chaos Blade.  It also costs less MP, giving you more uses.  Basically, Wretched Blade is a completely different move by changing the one most defining aspect of Grand Cross and leaving basically everything else the same.  That one change makes them completely different moves - one strong, generic, and adaptable, and the other incredibly strong, but linear and requiring specific setups to work.  They fill very different roles despite being almost the exact same skill.  This also helps Absorption teams on some levels since you could use Wretched Blade to AoE heal allies without healing self but gaining more setup flexibility in the process.  (Again, the Poison proc was something FDC insisted on to no end and is basically irrelevant to the move.)

What if we gave Water a 20-25% chance of dispelling positive status? Is that possible?

Both possible and a good idea.  It's more niche but since Water also penetrates Reflect this isn't as big a deal.  It gets the weakest procs in terms of reliability but arguably one of the best Element perks.

didn't someone else already explain why Petrify is so bad as proc?

I did.  Doesn't mean I'm gonna remove all instances of it everywhere forever.  The main reason I rallied against anti-Petrify on Carve Model is that many maps are both very flat (allowing AoE hits) and almost 100% Carve Model (making the "Double Petrify OOOOO!") super-duper common.  Ancient Sword is nothing like Carve Model in terms of being able to slap a bitch with Petrify, lacking the AoE and the range.

Meh, I guess. I just really don't like Shock-esque abilities, at least as they are now. Then again, given it's the AI, they'll see a lot less abuse than they would in human hands, so I suppose I'm more or less okay with that this dislike.

The AI doesn't see the proc on the weapon at all, so yes, they use it far worse than a human would.  It's like a Reaction, the AI doesn't even know it's there.  It's why procs tend to be useful against all units instead of things like Blind or Silence, with some highly dedicated exceptions like Bizen Boat.

But, yeah, I know the AI isn't that dumb. I'm just saying it's potential problem, though admittedly minor compared to the issue you didn't (directly) answer: Drain attacks fully healing the HP damage they inflict. Bringing up Bloody Strings just reminds me how much they still manage to make Ramia Harp/Lamia Harp and Fairy Harp pointless despite their buffs.

And I'm saying a Two Swords Blood Sword with no W-EV is still inferior to an Attack UP Bloody Strings, and neither are breaking the game as they are in Arena with 100% Absorption.  A team like FDC's Blood would eat bad teams alive simply because those bad teams suck and don't field damage while Blood does, but at this point in Arena, teams have gotten good enough that a good team will usually win, and FDC's Blood team is basically your problem with this change taken to its logical extreme.  Other Blood Sword users in the AI Tournament (from what I've noticed so far, at least, feel free to try and correct me and I'll examine things again) were both very uncommon, and the few that were used proved to be ineffectual at best.  Exhibition matches collaborate this, with very few Blood Sword users, and very few of those ones outside of FDC's Blood team being all that noteworthy.  Yeah, it's strong, but basically being 100% hit by everything in Arena v any team that can field decent DPS is going to make that HP Absorb mean nothing really fast.  The AI also doesn't know it can heal by using Attack on an enemy, so you can't really use the "Critical unit goes to full HP" argument because a Critical HP Unit with a Blood Sword will almost always run away instead of attacking.

The two whole other instances of Petrify, including Ancient Sword, do damage in addition to Petrifying, meaning its "deader than dead" bonus is just a "neat" little bonus. That just...seems wrong.

Alternately, Petrify also has the problem of meanings pretty much jack-shit if you can cure like Esuna and Stigma Magic does. It basically just becomes a worse version of Stop in that case.

Yeah, Petrify is high-risk, high-reward as far as KO statuses go.  That by itself is fine.  There needs to be high-risk, high-reward things in a game to entice players.  Which is what makes Ancient Sword and Local Quake, Ancient Sword takes your weapon slot and does inferior melee damage for the chance of a high-risk, high-reward KO your opponent might just laugh at, Local Quake does the same via Geomancy which is far cheaper but much more inconsistent to access.  Once upon a time, FDC wanted to remove Iron Boots, and I had to explain the same concept to him - high-risk, high-reward items are important because they help bad players learn better quality perception by trying them and failing to grasp how to use them, and because they reward players who do understand the intricacies of how to utilize their risk/reward and when with many victories.  In good hands, they ensure the metagame doesn't get stale by constantly throwing wild cards at the game, and in bad hands they become good learning tools for overcoming the newbie hump and helping them better understand item quality, both of which are highly important in a PVP game.  This is another reason I'm against "hand-holding" things like making the Platinum Sword not compatible with Two Hands despite the only reason to not make it so being that Lionheart is better with Two Hands - it doesn't help the newbie player learn, it just ferries them to the right answers without helping them learn why those answers are right, which in turn leaves us with a lesser quality of Arena players in general.


but Two Swords with Sleep Swords has the chance to backfire where as two Ancient Swords don't, so there's that as well.

"Backfire"?  You keep Sleep Sword in the top hand and a different Sword in the offhand, so you can Sleep and make the second swing at 3/2 damage.  You can do this with a second Sleep Sword too, you can proc Sleep on the already sleeping target, getting 3/2 on your second hit and re-Sleeping them.  It's not really a backfire when many times this is intentional and the superior way to use Two Swords with 1 or more Sleep Swords.  Not to say knocking the target unconscious and leaving them there is bad, but to call the other outcome a backfire is pretty much wrong.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: The Damned on May 23, 2012, 12:52:54 AM
(Okay, I'm back. You may commence booing.)

Too lazy to quote things right now. You want me to do that composite list, Raven?

In the meantime, I'll give laconic answers since I have a headache right now:


1. "Wretched Blade": Oh, right. In my haste, I was thinking of it from a purely elemental standpoint including self-absorption, but yeah, being able to use "Not-Grand Cross" with non-elemental weapons or with users that don't have to block Blind and/or absorb their own element would make it quite different. ("We" aren't letting it Blind like Grand Cross, right?)

I suppose it just needs a name now then. Unfortunately, all I can think of to suggest at present is "Southern Cross" since Celdia mentioned Tri-Ace earlier. Blame her and Celine.


2. Allowing Petrify as proc: Meh. I can't say I like it, but it's not like I'm final word on anything. The only things I'm really adamant about is Water getting more representation & absorption so as to not be complete shit, Carve Model not having Petrify, Hidden Knife losing -1 Sp and a few other things. Everything else I'm either like "this is fine (even if I may actually be apathetic to it)" or "I object (because of these possibly erroneous reasons)."

If other people are fine with Ancient Sword causing Petrify while being able to be used with Two Swords or Two Hands, then fine.


3. Blood Sword: Meh, I suppose. I know about the AI's Critical behavior, which is why I didn't bring it up since I know it won't attack unless it's right next to a unit already. Still don't like it, but as you say, it currently only goes so far. I still say that's more of a problem with Bloody Strings being slightly overpowered, but, again, "meh".


4. Double Sleep Sword "Backfiring": Oh, I was just being an idiot and for some reason thinking that Sleep would be applied before the damage that woke them up, especially since no one has ever used double Sleep Sword despite the fact I think it's been around since initial ARENA. Ignore me in this instance.


Now I remember that I still haven't thought about what to do with Sasuke Knife, even as low-priority as it is, or the three Harps, of which only Bloody Strings is currently worth using and raising WP further for the other two isn't really an option.

Poles and Bags also perhaps need some addressing, but other than that, I think every equipment category has been hit besides Spears and Cloths, which are both already more than fine/usable.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Fanatic on May 23, 2012, 01:17:58 AM
Humble request: Kill quickening. Kill it dead. Then stake it through its small dark heart, stuff holy vanilla waffers in its mouth, and then decapitate it, burn the remains, and throw them into the sun.

I... dislike... that particularly ability.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Gaignun on May 23, 2012, 01:39:00 AM
Quote from: RavenOfRazgriz
Re: Wiznaibus - I'd rather further lower the %rate of Poison on Wiznaibus to 10% or 15% than remove Mime.  The entire point of this upgrade to Wiznaibus is to buff Miming teams.

I can get behind that.

Quote from: RavenOfRazgriz
Re: Water 2 proc - Faith would be /interesting/, but Fire 2 already procs Oil, which does the same thing by doubling damage to every Element in the Wizard's skillset.

That is true.  Faith would be better than Oil in most cases, as well, as it isn't dispelled on hit.  The most benign universal ailment next to Oil, Slow, and Don't Move that comes to mind is Poison, but that's beginning to push it.  Is CT5Holy's suggestion about adding a chance of dispell to damage formulae possible?

EDIT: Question answered above.

Quote from: The Damned
...if the Water spells really do end up all ignoring Reflect, then I'm really not sure they "need" anything.

The way I see it, each element group gets one "tradeoff," for lack of a better word, in addition to a status proc.  Fire trades damage for increased AoE, Ice JP affordability for MP cost, and Lightning MP cost for damage.  I am of the impression that the piercing of reflect would count towards water's tradeoff rather than its status proc, given that this feature will apply to all water spells.

Are we rolling with reflect-piercing as the feature now, anyway?  Reduced CT was also mentioned, which I think would make Water more useful in general, since the majority of units are not going to have a reflect status to pierce.  This also won't overshadow Dispel Magic's role in getting past Reflect.

Quote from: CT5Holy
Cherche and Setiemson were indeed +1 PA/MA, Initial: Protect/Shell at one point, and yeah, they weren't used.

I vaguely remembered that when I was typing my previous post, but was not sure enough to act on it.  The perfumes can stay in this case.  However, until there is some way to punish high Fury in spite of Protect, like Yin Yang Magic punishes high Faith in spite of Shell, I will remain wary about Warpath.

Quote from: The Damned
TEAR INTO PIECES!

You can recite Star Ocean 2 quotes, too?  I think I found my new best friend.

Quote from: Fanatic
Kill quickening.

I agree with you here.  SP is the touchiest of stats.  Locking units into rigid SP tiers and balancing equipment and abilities accordingly is the easiest way to go.  That way you don't have to worry about the possibility of letting 20 SP chemists throw around items like candy.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: The Damned on May 23, 2012, 06:00:40 AM
(Oh, fuck. I accidentally de-audio'd my computer while cleaning it up. Maybe some other things as well.... Anyway, this is going to delay things a bit slightly....)

I'd wait for Raven to respond to the composite list question normally, but in this instance I'm just going to assume "responsibility" for it given that I'm not doing anything else.

That said, since it was brought up the monster thread now, I figure I might as well ask it the more appropriate thread:

Make Undead immune to Crystal? Yay? Nay? Tropay? (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ReviveKillsZombie)

Humble request: Kill quickening. Kill it dead. Then stake it through its small dark heart, stuff holy vanilla waffers in its mouth, and then decapitate it, burn the remains, and throw them into the sun.

I... dislike... that particularly ability.

I wholeheartedly agree.

Too bad I tried to get Quickening murdered as soon as it appeared months ago and it never took. Maybe other people will have more luck.

The way I see it, each element group gets one "tradeoff," for lack of a better word, in addition to a status proc.  Fire trades damage for increased AoE, Ice JP affordability for MP cost, and Lightning MP cost for damage.  I am of the impression that the piercing of reflect would count towards water's tradeoff rather than its status proc, given that this feature will apply to all water spells.

Are we rolling with reflect-piercing as the feature now, anyway?  Reduced CT was also mentioned, which I think would make Water more useful in general, since the majority of units are not going to have a reflect status to pierce.  This also won't overshadow Dispel Magic's role in getting past Reflect.

Yeah, people seem to be going for the Water spells Wizard is pretty much guaranteed to get at this point to bypass Reflect, if only because nothing else Black Magic has now does and people don't want Flare getting past Reflect. Of course, every time I say people, I mean "you (Gaignun), Raven, CT5Holy, Eternal and myself alongside a few posts by FFMaster and a few other assorted people". I don't know what, say, everyone that's currently participating in the AI tournament thinks about it, but they all have had the chance to say something (and continue to have a chance) and have said nothing about anything, so...shrug.

But, yeah, I guess that would be Water's "tradeoff" or special quality, independent of the easily implemented Dispel aspect of it. While I agree that Dispel Magic might be "overshadowed" by this, especially if Water 2 has a 20% chance to get rid of positive status, that isn't necessarily a bad thing. Dispel Magic will still get rid of things other than Reflect at pretty much 100% unless the target has Innocent on. Similarly, Water ignoring Reflect (but not M-EV) will just be giving an option to get past Reflect, which literally every other mage has; very few of these Reflect-ignoring spells are direct damage, yes, but Black Magic pretty much doesn't do anything besides damage except Poison and Frog.

Alternately, I'd be willing to let Water's "schtick" be lowered CT and just have all the Tier 3 spells ignore Reflect but still be subject to M-EV. Double shrug.

You can recite Star Ocean 2 quotes, too?  I think I found my new best friend.

Been forever since I played the game (and didn't beat it), but quoting Claude is easy. Hardly remember much else.

His voice and whoring Earth...Ripper(?) was all I could do to try to forget Precis's voice.

*shudder*
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Reks on May 23, 2012, 07:49:42 PM
*dodges any and all attacks made that aren't heavy criticism*

Now then. I'll leave the decision making to those who know what they're doing. But.... I'll suggest a few ideas, see how they get taken. Or see if they get ignored, like I normally am.

Petrify:
Well, as a proc Petrify is devastating. Sure, it can be cured with a quick Stigma Magic/Soft, but it takes a turn to recover from it and if there's nobody to remove it, that unit is gone. So I'm curius to see what would be thought about borrowing from TO and making Petrify temporary, but still last a good while. I know it would then cut into Stop's usefullness, but when Stopped a unit can still be targeted, unlike Petrify.


Undead:
I agree with Eternal here. It would be made far more useful if an undead unit was guaranteed to get back up rather than having a chance to crystalize. Sure, they're easy to put down with a Raise 2 and such, but when the AI kills one and runs past them, with the undead rising back behind them and whacking at the exposed weaker units... Yeah. Still, undead needs that buff, otherwise it takes a specialized setup to avoid a Raise 2/Fire instakill.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Barren on May 23, 2012, 07:58:13 PM
I do feel that the undead should have that kind of leverage because they are otherwise to vulnerable to a fire or a raise spell. no matter how hard hitting there area. sure reflect helps but seal evil and consecration (unless equipped with genji shield) can kill them instantly
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on May 23, 2012, 08:34:21 PM
Quick reply to the Undead stuff, will write actual reply to things later -

Undead Status should not be immune to Crystal or Treasure.  It is a straight debuff in every sense of the word, unlike Berserk.  However, this doesn't mean this problem can't be mediated.  Simply make the Undead monster classes (Skeleton and Ghoul) as well as the Cursed Ring immune to Crystal or Treasure - the Undead by choice always rise again, the undead through curse are truly blighted.  Both sides win.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Reks on May 23, 2012, 09:03:43 PM
Quick reply to the Undead stuff, will write actual reply to things later -

Undead Status should not be immune to Crystal or Treasure.  It is a straight debuff in every sense of the word, unlike Berserk.  However, this doesn't mean this problem can't be mediated.  Simply make the Undead monster classes (Skeleton and Ghoul) as well as the Cursed Ring immune to Crystal or Treasure - the Undead by choice always rise again, the undead through curse are truly blighted.  Both sides win.

Raven to the rescue. Seriously, that is an amazing idea, and it makes a lot of sense.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: The Damned on May 23, 2012, 09:11:01 PM
(*facepalms*)

Hmmm...this reminds me I should probably post in the monster thread right after this...after I finish feeling like a gigantic moron; hey the self-deprecation is more than merited this time.

Also, I'm not entirely sure how I should "summarize" things, but I'll still try to do it since I'm not sure that's what Raven meant he was going to "reply" to.

Quick reply to the Undead stuff, will write actual reply to things later -

Undead Status should not be immune to Crystal or Treasure.  It is a straight debuff in every sense of the word, unlike Berserk.  However, this doesn't mean this problem can't be mediated.  Simply make the Undead monster classes (Skeleton and Ghoul) as well as the Cursed Ring immune to Crystal or Treasure - the Undead by choice always rise again, the undead through curse are truly blighted.  Both sides win.

*headdesks repeatedly*

Ugh. It's been so fucking obvious this entire time, especially since I thought of blocking Crystal forever go. Why....

Oh, right. I got rid of Cursed Ring in Embargo for Undead-making armor that will probably die and I'm "buffing" Undead a bit despite it being a debuff. Right. Good job.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on May 24, 2012, 05:53:10 AM
(Okay, I'm back. You may commence booing.)

Too lazy to quote things right now. You want me to do that composite list, Raven?

No, I'll get to it.  Probably make a double-post immediately after this for it.

("We" aren't letting it Blind like Grand Cross, right?)

No, as of now it would have no proc.  It is a pure Weapon Element DPS move.

Now I remember that I still haven't thought about what to do with Sasuke Knife, even as low-priority as it is, or the three Harps, of which only Bloody Strings is currently worth using and raising WP further for the other two isn't really an option.

The other Harps really aren't bad either, the Bloody Strings likely does have a bit too much WP but Harps are so negligible I'd rather focus entirely on Swords and Katana currently and leave Harps for a separate update.  I have a quick and dirty means of getting Bags a bit better though, so I'll include it in the next amalgamation of shit.

Note that the amalgamation of shit will likely have no explanations for it since everything has already been explained, making that post much shorter and easier to sift through.  The few things I add in (such as my Bag quick-fix) will have explanations, though.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on May 24, 2012, 07:35:00 AM
Reformatted all the weapon areas to the setup I used in my Katana and Sword reboots since it's much cleaner than what FDC did.




































Still can't remember what the two Gauntlets FDC, myself, and the others kicked around were to replace Genji Gauntlet and Power Wrist.  Eh, figure it out later.  I don't think I missed any changes here so far.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: The Damned on May 24, 2012, 08:14:39 AM
(Hurray, an excuse to be lazy. Because I totally needed one of those.)

Very well then. I wasn't going to include explanations either, especially since this forum probably still wouldn't tell you when/if you hit the word limit. Explanations also would have to take into account the back and forth, at least in some sections, and that would make things even more problematic, especially for more open-ended things.

As for the other things, I suspected as much about "Not-Grand Cross"/"Southern Cross"; I just wanted to be sure as with Tier 3 Black Magic spells.

And, yeah, Harps can wait since they're all decent and exclusive. I was just pointing out how Bloody Strings' drain makes it so much better what would two otherwise good if not great weapons, especially since it's on a class that's not supposed to be attacking that regularly to begin with; maybe 33% isn't cutting either. But, yeah, not exactly a grand priority.

****

And, heh, you posted while I was typing. I guess I'll just reply to anything that's new-new:

1. Knives: Repel Knife's new. I rather like it, even if it will backfire hilariously on units that block Don't Act. I vaguely recall someone saying this disliked Two Hands on Knives, but I personally don't care.


2. Swords: I'm actually kinda morbidly curious to see how Phoenix Blade plays out. It should at least fair better than Salty Rage when it had Slow, though that's probably not saying much....


3. Bags: As much I'm still wary of innate Two Swords and (less, far less in this case) Two Hands, yeah, Bags needed this.


4. Shields: Good name to replace "Glitter Shield". Crystal Shield with will be interesting, if somewhat random. Still, it makes it slightly more usable and why not (besides slightly screwing over only maybe-happening monsters).


5. Rings: Hmmm...if by "make my day" you mean "give him reason to start kvetching again", then yes; not that I'm ever happy, though, so you have my thanks for trying. So does 108 Gems just not get anything at this point then? Also, while no one else commented on it, do we still want Defense Ring to Block Berserk (instead of Silence) if Reflect Ring is blocking Berserk now?


6. Squire: Caution moving here is the first time that's been, right? Regardless, I agree with it, especially since Squire already has the (unused) Defend Support. Still wary of Concentrate, but meh. Can we please call "Alacrity" "Focus"? [/not a huge deal]


7. Chemist: I actually think we all agree, even myself as the "creator" of it, that Chronos Tear should only be 100 JP. Not that I'll lose sleep over it costing 150 JP since I loathe Chemist, but yeah.


8. Paladin: Daw, you named it "Southern Cross". Now I'll feel less horrible when I steal both abilities for Embargo. <3


9. Priests: While still wary of Dia, thank you for upping its JP cost. Also, yeah, like Haste and Slow, Protect and Shell needed the boost.


10. Wizard: Good to see someone has done the math; also that the whole "Water 1" or "Water 2 Back" to thing was made explicit. Also good to know we have confirmation of prices and Water ignoring Reflect. Why Y as 90 for Poison, though, when you had agreed that it was probably fine with Y being reduced all the way down to 75 like the less dangerous Don't Move?


I think you got everything aside from the brief talk about how Archer's Speed Save probably needs a bit of boost to -25 CT. I think there was something else too, but that's the only thing that comes to mind presently.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: dacheat on May 24, 2012, 08:21:48 AM
I vaguely remembered that when I was typing my previous post, but was not sure enough to act on it.  The perfumes can stay in this case.  However, until there is some way to punish high Fury in spite of Protect, like Yin Yang Magic punishes high Faith in spite of Shell, I will remain wary about Warpath.

Why don't you make snipe a counter to Protect? It seems like Aim: Arm, Leg, and all of the breaks would lend themselves well to getting hit % boosts on high-fury opponents.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: CT5Holy on May 24, 2012, 08:25:08 AM
Raven left it at 90 because Poison is M-Evadable.

I'm still pushing for Speed Save to +30 CT.

Repel Knife looks cool.

Phoenix Blade... another interesting concept, but Always: Slow is just so crippling. Not to mention that Always: Reraise doesn't matter when everyone's dead. =P
I'm willing to keep it around for a bit - it'll be fun to try to experiment with, maybe.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Gaignun on May 24, 2012, 11:45:47 AM
Quote from: RavenOfRazgriz
*Wizard changes*

We should probably reassign spell names while we're eliminating tiers.  Do people prefer the "-a -aga" nomenclature of FF8+ to the "-2 -3" nomenclature before it?  This could be our opportunity to to switch over.  Otherwise, seeing that we have only two real tiers, "back" tier excluded, we could go with something unique like "Water" for tier 1 and "High Water" for tier 2.  Then commentators with humour as dry as mine could crack jokes like "this unit won't die come hell or high water."

Quote from: RavenOfRazgriz
Poison Y is lowered, but I only lowered it to 90 here after noticing it still takes M-EV.

Don't Move takes M-EV, too.

Quote from: RavenOfRazgriz
*Summoner changes*

You probably forgot to mention this, but the CT>4 summons are going to need some buffs to make up for the M-EV nerf.  How's this?

Change: Salamander (Dmg_F * MA * 8, Fire elemental, 20% +Oil, 20 MP, 5 CT)
Change: Leviathan (Dmg_F * MA * 8, Water elemental, 20% Dispel, 20 MP, 5 CT)
Change: Titan (Dmg_F * MA * 10, Earth elemental, 25 MP, 5 CT)
Change: Cyclops (Dmg_F * MA * 10, Holy elemental, 20% +Blind, 35 MP, 5 CT)

Salamander and Leviathan get 20% procs that mirror Black Magic (because I'm feeling unoriginal) and a damage boost so that they aren't laughably bad, Titan gets a damage boost so that Quake doesn't trump it, and Cyclops gets its CT reduced to keep par with the new Titan.  (I don't think +20% Blind is worth both 10 extra MP and 1 extra CT.)

Quote from: The Damned
do we still want Defense Ring to Block Berserk (instead of Silence) if Reflect Ring is blocking Berserk now?

I'd rather add resistance to Oil over Silence, since nothing blocks Oil at present.  What do people think about giving Defense Ring immunity to Oil, Sleep, and Dead? (See the edit below.)

Also, I'd prefer to rename Defense Ring and Defense Armlet to something that elicits the concept of their newly nulled elements.  Coral Ring is on the drawing board.  Do we have any others?

Quote from: RavenOfRazgriz
Oil:
Dispel by all elements (except holy/dark?)
Weak to all elements (except holy/dark?)

I know we didn't (and most likely never will) conclude our discussion about Holy/Dark.  You raised good points before.  It seems we are arguing for different things, though.  Let me attempt to summarise our stances.  You wish to include Holy/Dark to give more power to the player.  Your explanation was clear.  I wish to exclude Holy/Dark, however, to give more power to the designer.  I tried to do this by showing how accessible the Holy skill would become for 1HKOs.  Black Magic will become able to 1HKO, as well, but only if the Black Magic wielder has high MA in general.  This is fine.  On the other hand, even the tankiest of White Magic users (res bots, status bots, and so on) will be able to 1HKO with Holy.

I guess what this boils down to is that I want the White Magic skill set, which is already useful and widely used, to be incompatible with the Oil buff.  If you want to 1HKO with Oil, you need to be built as a DPS machine; support tanks are excluded.  By giving skill sets access to only elements we exclude from Oil, we designers can make this exclusion possible.  The same thing applies to Demi 2 pending a buff.  White Magic DPS machines will still be able to 1HKO with Holy in spite of the buff.  I don't have a problem with that, especially since Holy is now taking M-EV.  That Holy/Dark elemental weapons also lose out on Oil synergies is an unfortunate casualty, but a casualty I'm willing to accept.  I don't have much more to say about this, so if you, and possibly others, are still unconvinced, then go ahead and let Oil apply to all elements.

EDIT: On second thought, would anyone mind adding an additional Absorb: Earth to Defense Ring and simply scrapping Berserk immunity in exchange?  "Gaia Ring" would be a fitting name for this accessory.  At two elements apiece, this Gaia Ring would be comparable to the current Magic Ring.  Furthermore, Gaia Ring's Earth, like Magic Ring's Holy, is one of the elements the "big three" clothes (Black Costume, Santa Outfit, and Rubber Costume) do not absorb.  Oil immunity could shift to 108 Gems in this case.  That 108 Gems also has Undead immunity, which subsequently makes stocking Holy Water unnecessary for its wearers, is harmonious to design.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Eternal on May 24, 2012, 12:13:23 PM
My $0.02:

Chronos Tear: Could probably stand to gain Cancel: Slow as well.

Silencer: Please rename this. Mageslayer should do.

Alacrity: Yes, Focus would be a better name.



Black Magic: *cringes at Black Magic names* Can't we just have Tier 1, Tier 2, and -Back magic? =x

Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Fantactic1316 on May 24, 2012, 01:47:15 PM
I like -a, -aga nomenclature. Also, that's a fun word, isn't it? Nomenclature. =)
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on May 24, 2012, 07:05:30 PM
1. Knives: Repel Knife's new. I rather like it, even if it will backfire hilariously on units that block Don't Act. I vaguely recall someone saying this disliked Two Hands on Knives, but I personally don't care.

All or Nothing on Repel Knife means if either Haste or Don't Act is not able to be applied, the proc (should) fail, unless my memory is very bad.  As for not liking Two Hands on Knives, the ones not usable with Two Swords are basically short swords in the form of Daggers anyway, no reason you'd not be able to double-grip them.  Not that I care much of flavor and did the Two Hands stuff from a mechanical standpoint.

Swords: I'm actually kinda morbidly curious to see how Phoenix Blade plays out. It should at least fair better than Salty Rage when it had Slow, though that's probably not saying much...

The big difference between Salty Rage and Phoenix Blade is that you get to keep all your evasion (and Phoenix Blade has 25% W-EV), still do good DPS, still can use Shields, are immune to Undead, and have properly functioning AI that will use abilities / etc. instead of Berserk AI.  You also still get to keep your Accessory slot open, which often provides far more important buffs than your Weapon slot does.  So yes, it should fare much better than that old version of Salty Rage, I hope.

Also, while no one else commented on it, do we still want Defense Ring to Block Berserk (instead of Silence) if Reflect Ring is blocking Berserk now?

The number of accessories that block Berserk are intentionally higher than normal because Berserk cannot be easily cured.  Undead protection being added to Accessories was done for a similar reason - both are very crippling when used as debuffs and only the Item skillset can heal them, so in turn more options for immunity should exist so that you're not automatically locked into "Bring Item or Bust" to deal with these statuses.

I think you got everything aside from the brief talk about how Archer's Speed Save probably needs a bit of boost to -25 CT. I think there was something else too, but that's the only thing that comes to mind presently.

I filed that under Thief because I was half asleep.  Would fix it, but effort.

We should probably reassign spell names while we're eliminating tiers.  Do people prefer the "-a -aga" nomenclature of FF8+ to the "-2 -3" nomenclature before it?  This could be our opportunity to to switch over.  Otherwise, seeing that we have only two real tiers, "back" tier excluded, we could go with something unique like "Water" for tier 1 and "High Water" for tier 2.  Then commentators with humour as dry as mine could crack jokes like "this unit won't die come hell or high water."

Maybe I'm alone here, but I find there to be quite a charm to the numbered tiers.  Sticking to the 2 and 3 tiers was also kind of intentional thatisthejoke.jpg.

Not opposed to new names, but they should be good if we're gonna get fancy.

Don't Move takes M-EV, too.


Don't Move is also the better status in any situation where the enemy isn't already Critical and also has a AoE boost.

Change: Salamander (Dmg_F * MA * 8, Fire elemental, 20% +Oil, 20 MP, 5 CT)
Change: Leviathan (Dmg_F * MA * 8, Water elemental, 20% Dispel, 20 MP, 5 CT)
Change: Titan (Dmg_F * MA * 10, Earth elemental, 25 MP, 5 CT)
Change: Cyclops (Dmg_F * MA * 10, Holy elemental, 20% +Blind, 35 MP, 5 CT)

Bah, I forgot about this shit entirely.  I'll mess with it later.  I'm too half asleep to hammer out ideas right now.

That Holy/Dark elemental weapons also lose out on Oil synergies is an unfortunate casualty, but a casualty I'm willing to accept.  I don't have much more to say about this, so if you, and possibly others, are still unconvinced, then go ahead and let Oil apply to all elements.

You get it pretty clearly, but there is a far simpler solution than yours that gives us both what we want - Holy can simply be a non-Elemental attack, if defensive Oil users prove to be such a big issue.  We both get what we want this way, and almost nothing is lost, because Holy being Holy Element is basically irrelevant to everything.  All it'd need is the Y to be buffed to compensate for a lack of compatibility with Golden Hairpin and it's still the exact same spell as far as application goes.  You shouldn't punish many synergies for the synergy of the lone skill.

EDIT:

I can mess with this stuff, yes.  Get something good going.  It will probably keep the Berserk immunity regardless for reasons I mentioned to The Damned, but an Absorb: Earth accessory could easily be made a thing.  We have the room and enough Accessories that would probably love the buff.  Not sure if Defense Ring should get the Earth Absorb, since unlike Magic Ring, Earth Absorb is actually relevant to things and Water Absorb will now be too, but something can get it and thoughts have been noted.

Expect stuff thrown at things with stuff and things when I am more awake.



And yes Eternal, we can make Chronos Tear stop Slow if you like.  It doesn't really matter either way.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: The Damned on May 24, 2012, 10:19:44 PM
(I swear, every time I think I actually improve this computer....)

Ugh. I still can't remember what I feel like I'm forgetting. So now it's going to nag me all day even though I just woke up three ago after staying up all morning again. Hurray.

We should probably reassign spell names while we're eliminating tiers.  Do people prefer the "-a -aga" nomenclature of FF8+ to the "-2 -3" nomenclature before it?  This could be our opportunity to to switch over.  Otherwise, seeing that we have only two real tiers, "back" tier excluded, we could go with something unique like "Water" for tier 1 and "High Water" for tier 2.  Then commentators with humour as dry as mine could crack jokes like "this unit won't die come hell or high water."

Meh. For now, I think that Black Magic can keep its crappy names just because it's difficult enough to keep up with the changes as it is. Maybe after stuff is implemented and "we" see it's actually effective "we" can go for "funner" names to vary them. Considering "we" just nuked Tier 1 and Tier 4 and added Tier 2.5, I think we've got enough numerical confusion.

Speaking of which, why are "we" calling the Back spells "2 Back"? Can't "we" just omit the 2 and call them "Back"?

(I'm starting to feel like I'm using the Royal We because of how I keep putting that word in quotations.)

You probably forgot to mention this, but the CT>4 summons are going to need some buffs to make up for the M-EV nerf.  How's this?

Change: Salamander (Dmg_F * MA * 8, Fire elemental, 20% +Oil, 20 MP, 5 CT)
Change: Leviathan (Dmg_F * MA * 8, Water elemental, 20% Dispel, 20 MP, 5 CT)
Change: Titan (Dmg_F * MA * 10, Earth elemental, 25 MP, 5 CT)
Change: Cyclops (Dmg_F * MA * 10, Holy elemental, 20% +Blind, 35 MP, 5 CT)

Salamander and Leviathan get 20% procs that mirror Black Magic (because I'm feeling unoriginal) and a damage boost so that they aren't laughably bad, Titan gets a damage boost so that Quake doesn't trump it, and Cyclops gets its CT reduced to keep par with the new Titan.  (I don't think +20% Blind is worth both 10 extra MP and 1 extra CT.)

I wasn't really thinking of Summon Magic, so that's not it.

That said, I can agree with all of these, though Cyclops is a bit iffy given how long Blind lasts and how Holy is generally less guarded (at least with Magic Ring currently overshadowed by Reflect Ring). I can't agree with Salamander if Oil boosts Holy or Dark, though, due to reasons that I comment on just below.

I'd rather add resistance to Oil over Silence, since nothing blocks Oil at present.  What do people think about giving Defense Ring immunity to Oil, Sleep, and Dead? (See the edit below.)

Also, I'd prefer to rename Defense Ring and Defense Armlet to something that elicits the concept of their newly nulled elements.  Coral Ring is on the drawing board.  Do we have any others?

EDIT: On second thought, would anyone mind adding an additional Absorb: Earth to Defense Ring and simply scrapping Berserk immunity in exchange?  "Gaia Ring" would be a fitting name for this accessory.  At two elements apiece, this Gaia Ring would be comparable to the current Magic Ring.  Furthermore, Gaia Ring's Earth, like Magic Ring's Holy, is one of the elements the "big three" clothes (Black Costume, Santa Outfit, and Rubber Costume) do not absorb.  Oil immunity could shift to 108 Gems in this case.  That 108 Gems also has Undead immunity, which subsequently makes stocking Holy Water unnecessary for its wearers, is harmonious to design.

Oh, right. Something does rather need to block Oil. I suppose I just forgot because I had assumed that Coral Ring was getting in and that took care of both Absorb: Water and Block: Oil. I think I also got distracted because, while Blocking Berserk is important given its unfortunately still infinite duration, I do feel that something else needs to Block: Silence accessory-wise.

As for your proposals, I'll do a short list here:

1. Current Defense Ring becoming "Block: Oil, Sleep & Dead": Ironically, I kinda want to argue against this for part of the exact same reason that Defense Ring probably wasn't used: these statuses don't really have anything to do with each other. Oil and Dead would only even be on the same set due to upcoming changes to Black Magic(k) and Summon Magic(k). While it may be an improvement over how incredibly niche Defense Ring was despite how dangerous at least two of its status blocks were, since that was obviously meant to be an anti-Mediator ring, it also still doesn't change the fact that Defense Ring would be one of the few accessories that continues to actively do nothing.


2. Renaming Defense Ring and Defense Armlet: I'm not entirely sure that's necessary, at least in Defense Armlet's case. I guess "we" could rename Defense Ring "Coral Ring" just because Raven wants it to Absorb Water now, but to me Coral Ring does more than that and blocking Berserk, Sleep and Dead don't exactly fit the "theme" of coral. Also, why wouldn't "we" be renaming Jade Armlet too if that's the case?


3. Gaia Ring: What exactly would Gaia Ring end up doing then? Absorbing Earth & Water and Blocking Sleep & Death Sentence? Or is it Blocking Sleep and Dead? Regardless, I'm not exactly sure that making it comparable to Magic Ring is something to be desired. As I've said repeatedly, due to the monopoly on blocking Silence that Magic Ring has (and will apparently go back to having), pretty much any element it ends up blocking/absorbing instantly becomes shit since like half of all magic users (and Talk Skill users) will always end up absorbing it (even with Robes of Lords around).

While Gaia Ring wouldn't have this monopolized problem, I'd rather not chance screwing two of the already lesser used elements, especially if Wind is going to get screwed over again; this even though it would have fierce competition what with the other accessories that block Sleep or Dead both having Initial: Reraise. It doesn't exactly help that outside of the new Black Magic, the relatively few instances of Water and Earth are all otherwise on the same sets of Geomancy, Lore and Summon Magic; I guess Ninjutsu is also exempt, if only because Earth doesn't appear there at all. So, at present, I'd rather not have something else absorb two elements when I'm still not comfortable with Magic Ring doing it.


4. 108 Gems blocking Oil: I'd be fine with this, but wouldn't that mean it would block four statuses in addition to also Strengthening All elements? While I don't exactly have a problem with that and while its blocking of Blood Suck needs to go die in a fire (or a running body of water), I just want to be sure.

I know we didn't (and most likely never will) conclude our discussion about Holy/Dark.  You raised good points before.  It seems we are arguing for different things, though. 

*Hakan interrupts*

No, I also agree with this. It also helps that I think that if we're going to be able to tell if Demi 2 gets legitimately improved--that's what I was forgetting that Raven didn't mention--in and itself, then it kinda needs to not become an instant death machine via Oil.

As I mentioned earlier, I'm also cautious about allowing the already stronger elements simply because all instances of Oil sans Nameless Dance also do (probably significant) amounts of damage by themselves; doesn't help that Priest is getting even better being offensive by getting Dia. Of course, that might not be a problem due to the aforementioned Magic Ring "problem".